 to our first plenary session of the day which is the experts debate on affordable housing a game-changer. Well I'd like to first welcome our moderator for the session who happens to have more than 27 years of experience in multidisciplinary advisory and transactions ranging from real estate to social development projects. The moderator for the session ladies and gentlemen is a chairman of Anarok property consultants Mr. Anuj Puri could we have a huge round of applause ladies and gentlemen joining him our first panel member. He comes with a rich experience of around two decades in financial capital market and commodity market. He's a co-founder and chairman of Signature Global Group Pradeep Agarwal. Yes you could have that round of applause flowing ladies and gentlemen as we also invite the other panelists on stage. Our next panelist happens to be a qualified engine and computer science but also spearheads the launches of Saree Holmes residential projects plan. He is the managing director for Saree Holmes ladies and gentlemen, Veneeth Relya. All right we'll move further. Our next panelist is a first-generation entrepreneur who has steered the growth trajectory of Passive North Group. He's a founding chairman of Passive North Developers Limited Pradeep Jain. Our next panelist also happens to be a first-generation entrepreneur having more than 17 years of experience in construction real estate and development. The chairman and managing director for Tulip Infratek Parveen Jain. We also have with us one of the first to advocate the concept of affordable housing. In fact he's a chairman and managing director for Omax Limited Rotaaz Goyal. And finally ladies and gentlemen, we have Anushri Sivastava who's a CEO and co-founder of Zivesta. Ladies and gentlemen she's also an XIR CTC and also winner of National E Governance Award. Could we have a huge round of applause ladies and gentlemen. Those are our panelists and let the panel discussion begin. Thank you very much. I'm not so sure whether this is audible. I'm actually quite excited. I haven't had this panel discussion with some of the very close friends. You believe I've known for 25 years. Both of us had an office in Cannot Place. I moved to Bombay and he moved really upwards. It's interesting to hear his comments. Mr. Agarwal, it will be interesting to hear. That's okay. I'll take this. Don't worry. I haven't met this gentleman for a very long time. I said to him is that all the difficult questions are going to go to him. He was amongst the first ones who got listed. So it's great. Anushri, I had an opportunity to speak with her on a different subject yesterday. And little did we know that we were going to share a panel today. And then beneath obviously somebody who's really delivered huge amount of volumes from foreign fund. Interesting to know how saree converted from a fund into a developer and successfully executing projects in India. So I'm going to quickly set some tone. As niraj was giving his presentation, I was writing ten points that I wanted to share with this audience. The first is what niraj said is that there are three tsunamis. So he articulated it very well. Clearly we've had demonetization. I said is that perhaps this has been the most challenging year in 25 years of my career. I think is that I have witnessed probably four recessions. I haven't witnessed such a prolonged, slow recovery. We've witnessed when the markets went down straight and within two or three quarters, the markets were back. This time we've been in it for nearly two years. Maybe more. And I see this going for another 18, 24 months. So it is a prolonged way to recovery. Second, I said I am enjoying it thoroughly. Why I am enjoying it? Because this market will get hugely consolidated. Hugely consolidated whether it is the developer space. I feel 60, 70% of the people are not going to emerge on the other side of this tunnel, which maybe in the next two or three years. And likewise on the agency, on the brokerage, 60, 70% of them are not going to emerge on the other side. So a lot of youngsters who are sitting in here, it is great news because on the other side of the tunnel, you are going to see a lot more mature, professional, transparent, full of governance market. The third I said is, I wrote to myself, I said is the launches that happened in the second quarter of 2017 were the lowest since Lehman crisis. So lowest since Lehman crisis, January to March 2009, this is that time that we are in the quarter, second quarter of this year, which is the June ending quarter, which is interesting that it is so low. The numbers are 22,000. On an average we have been launching 70,000 units and we launched only 22,000 units. This is before RERA. This is not after RERA and hence could be a bit of an impact of RERA that people were waiting for RERA to get implemented in some of the states. The next is a very positive point, which is interesting. Last six quarters, and it's very, very important to understand, last six quarters, every quarter sales have been more than the launches. Every quarter sales have been more than the launches. It doesn't mean that the sales have gone up or the volume has gone up. It's just that the launches have come down, which is good in a way that the unsold inventory is shrinking, which is great from that perspective. The next one I wrote is that this time the recovery is going to be on sound fundamentals and not transient sentiment. I think in the previous three recoveries that I was reflecting, it was a transient sentiment, not a sound fundamental. This time when we will emerge, it will be a sound fundamental. I wrote the third last point, consumer activism will increase, and both the gentlemen on my left and right will vouch for this. I think speculator will continue to remain out. We're not going to see speculators coming in a hurry back in here. The which was interesting, the last point that I said is, you know, I was looking at our research data. Interestingly, you know, we beat NCR all the time, and I'm a culprit for that as well. And I was looking that the price rise in NCR and then the three markets that I picked up are Delhi, Gurgaon and Noida from the previous peak, which was just before the Lehman crisis, the previous peak. What would the index be? So if before the Lehman crisis, all these three markets assume was a hundred index, which was the peak. Delhi went up to 118, Gurgaon went up to 125, and Noida went up to 105. Now you may say, you know, that is significant that from the previous peak you've gone up, but consider that we've been in the cycle for eight or nine years. Your inflation is going to be much more than what they have increased. But if you compare this with Mumbai, Thane and Navi Mumbai, then whilst Delhi increased to 118 from 100, Mumbai increased from 100 to 149, Gurgaon increased from 100 to 125, Thane increased from 100 to 140, Noida increased from 100 to 105, Navi Mumbai increased from 100 to 160. So clearly there are other markets that are creating trouble. Now and I can go on and on and on, but this is not my opening speech. These are the reflections that I put together so that we can have an interesting panel discussion. And the point is really on affordable housing. All this is where it is. Can the affordable housing demonstrate that there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? And that is what we're going to discuss. And if there is, what is the key to get out to that pot of gold? What is it that the developers need? Is it land? Is it financial incentives? Is it timely clearances? Is it better loans? What is it that is that is required? Deepya, I'm going to start with you with the first question. Your thoughts on the overall market one and second is affordable housing a dream or is it a reality? Two things. One overall market and second is affordable housing a dream or is it really a reality? As you rightly said, the market is worst ever we've seen in 25, 30 years. In my view, the worst is behind. I'm not agree with you that this continue for another two years. The demonetization, RERA, GST, lot of issues come up on the table. And I believe now government do understand the need of the R to support to this sector. As yesterday you have seen the basket open by the government and they are talking about 10 lakh rupees investment into the roads, restrictions, public-private partnership, et cetera, et cetera. We are connected directly or indirectly somehow with all those development. But definitely we all sitting on this side of the table are responsible for that. Whatever be happening or happen in last couple of year. We need to be rectified ourselves. We need to be consolidated ourselves. We need to be fair with our consumer. We need to be fair with our regulator. And almost the situation like 15 years ago when the SEBI introduced for the share broker and RERA introduced for real estate developer. Almost the same, same time of the woman cry at that time as we people are crying today. Going forward the supply become a big concern, very, very big concern. As you said, whatever be the ready inventory, day by day, day by day keep reducing. New launch is almost zero. No developer willing to come out with the new launches. Post-off holding keep increasing. Like now you can't do any pre-launch, et cetera, et cetera. You need to acquire the land. Then you need to do all sanctions. Then to go for RERA, then you go to the financial institution. I believe the small developer entirely out from the market and the holding cost increased dramatically. And I'm sure the price at least to at least 20 to 30% increase in next 12 to 15 months. And people feel, you know, the left out if we are not able to take a decision to buy. This is my personal thought. Related to the affordable housing. I think affordable housing is the wrong word, but all around people are talking around. The government focusing on EWS and LIG, not on affordable housing. Affordable housing, we people are talking like in Gurgaon, 50 lakh rupees property is affordable. In Delhi, maybe a crore rupees property affordable. In Noida, Greater Noida, maybe 20 lakh rupees. Or in Mumbai or Mumbai, the same, you know, dynamic. EWS and LIG in I am in a strong view is not for the private developer. Very simple. A, the availability of the land, agriculture land converting into the residential. Then to get the approval sanctions, cost of construction and then to sale. And the margin is very thin and to face all these kind of the issues. Whatever be like RERA introduced, GST introduced. So many other compliances day by day, day by day. I believe earlier like we have a marketing department in the company. Now we have the compliance department into the company. The compliances cost much higher than the other cost within the company. I think EWS and LIG, the foray of the government to deliver affordable mid and luxury. We need to deliver and affordable, yes, the like property price below 50 lakhs, even saleable. But no one is focusing other than like the very, very few developer who is focusing to new launches, etc. What is the difference? In 2007 and in 2018, you raised a lot of capital. You did a lot of very good work and you still continue to do very good work. What is the difference? In 2007 and in 2018. And second is affordable housing. Why didn't anyone speak at that time? If it was that big a thing and it was perennial demand and everything was good. Today affordable housing is a buzzword. Every person says, I will do affordable housing only. So why didn't you do it in 2007? I will answer it in a single line. In 2007, why didn't you do affordable housing? Actually for affordable housing, the land should be at the price of the land. In 2007, the land was at the price of the land. The price of the land was made at the price of the land. By creating artificial scarcity of land, master plan was so small and later on it was increased. If you have increased master plan later on, why the government agency is not increased in first go? Why artificial scarcity was created and made the land afeem? So if you, you know the developers, everybody point out towards the developers. Developer is the just simply vendor of government authority. Nothing else. Because he buy the land either from the authority or from the farmers and get approved again from the government authorities. Make it FSI, then make it a house and then sell. So in this total process, his margin is 10 to 15 percent. If low tide in this process, low tide is not there. Because in real estate, you know, after three, four years, there is a tide, low tide, high tide, low tide, high tide. It's very risky business. If there is no, you know, low tide, then he earn only 10 to 15 percent. But the government agencies make the land's cost as afeem cost. How? The first reason is the master plan. Second reason is the cost. You know in Haryana, city like Sonipat, city like Faridabad, city like Yemna Nazar, city like Ambala, city like Madhugar. How much is the cost? 8 crore rupees a acre in commercial, if you want to make some commercial, it's rather 10 crore rupees a acre, government fees, to make this, to convert this land into the FSI. And the basic land cost is 2 crore rupees, it is 2 crore rupees a acre. 10 crore rupees a acre is the government fees. So who's making this land costlier? And who's making these affordable housing, unaffordable? Are we responsible? Or the somebody else? Give it a thought. Why it is being unaffordable? And the steps which are to be taken by the authorities or the government, the political will make everything so happens. Now I feel there is a political will. There is a political will to make the houses affordable. Going forward I feel, yes, in affordable housing, you know as Prime Minister reason by 2022, the housing for all, under this policy, I feel, personally feel there must be, there are already some incentives. And further because after giving so much of incentives, there is not big budget today also. In affordable housing there is not big budget, there is no, you know, big demand. You know, in Haryana if you leave apart this Gurgaon, where is the demand of affordable housing? I don't feel in complete Haryana, in complete, you know, under Haryana affordable housing policy, there is no demand and there is no viability also. If you leave Gurgaon there is no viability also. So as Pradeep Jain rightly said, affordable word is wrong word, wrong word. If you really want to say affordable then government will have to think a lot on it. Make the system very easy and smooth. You know, as Pradeep said, yes, you know, the other department, your compliance department is bigger than the marketing department today. I completely agree with Pradeep. Thank you very much, Mr. Goyal. I'm going to come to unassure you, but before that, I just want to continue with what Mr. Rathas Goyal said is very interesting two points that he mentioned. One is that where is the demand for affordable housing? And you're doing affordable housing all across India, including Gurgaon. So where is this demand coming in from? That's the first one. And the second is, I'll give you my mic. Don't worry. The first is, you know, where is this demand coming in from? And second, what are the challenges that you are facing in delivering affordable housing? Thanks, Anuj. So, you know, the way we look at affordable housing, I think affordable, like both the stalwarts mentioned, affordable is just a word which has been used to create a positive emotion in the country. I would actually give it three factors how it's being driven. You have a town and country planning, which is trying to, you know, help certain people who are sitting with land locked, which is bought expensively and doesn't have density or it has issues. It cannot be aggregated. So under the Garbo affordable, you give them a certain license to monetize that land. You know, so the first driver for affordable is, okay, I have land there. I cannot do anything. Let me do affordable housing there. So it's got nothing to do with providing homes to anybody. It has got to do with monetizing the land. Second issue, why affordable people are trying to get in is because the markets are behaving in a way where the ticket prices have gone through the roof and you're not able to sell. So to maintain my cash flow, I do affordable housing, which I can actually reduce my price, but I can't do it. So I catch hold of somebody who has stuck up land. I will go out and reduce my price, try and do a Pradhan Mantri Avasivajan and by somehow hook or crook, give a discount indirectly. So affordable is covers my discount. Third, what I'm seeing is that there are some players who are coming into market whose objectives are again to probably create a revenue, create a big volume, create an IPO situation, create a balance sheet number. So they're just trying to jump into the fray. And there's nothing wrong about it. We did the same thing in 2007. Unfortunately, our experience is the business is a back-breaking business and it doesn't lead you anything 10 years down the line. You know, if you really frankly ask me, our objective of raising money globally was only middle-income. We're a single-product company. We do only middle-income housing. Tickets other than Gurgaon, everywhere less than 50 lakhs. Gurgaon, we can't lose one crore is like minimum. But you know, the point of the fact is, is it viable in that? I don't think it's viable. So as a policy, we had this big discussion because you know, you have this layer of a lot of funds available for affordable housing. It's like the investment managers love the new flavor of affordable housing. So everybody wants to jump there. But we took a conscious call that we're not getting into it because we've delivered enough scale. Our objectives are clearly to do only viable things, especially with the compliance and five-year DLP is coming into play. And then when you touched upon the point that there isn't enough demand, so I think your next question was demand. See, when you talk about demand very correctly, what was mentioned is that affordable actually the country needs EWS. Let me give you a clear example. We have almost, if I'm not wrong, about 250 EWS in Gurgaon, right? The government told us clearly, till you don't get occupation certificate for this, we will not give you OC for the main housing, which we have sold. So we said, okay, no choice. We'll have to build it. After force from government, five years, I'm trying to sell them 1.5 lakhs a piece. I've sold only 50. Where is the customers? EWS. Somebody has to understand this. Sitting in the central ministry, it is easy to do speeches. I don't have poor people to buy my homes. 1.5 lakh EWS, 200 flats. Because why? You need a BPL card. Then you have a BPL card. You don't have poor people who have BPL cards here. You know, so where do I get those people who have a BPL card? Anyway, if somebody has, who's living in Haryana. He's probably earning 7,000 bucks. I just know in the world he can afford even 1.5 lakh rupees. So there was another state, Ghaziabad. Now it's a political issue. Yojna, whatever they call it. So the government has directed us. You give the homes free without taking money. You collect the money in 30 years. We have challenged it in court. Courts are not favorable to us. Finally, GDA has made some advance payment to us. We've convinced them, Baba, you collect. We can't get into this rut of, you know, we're not a mortgage lender that I'm going to collect from those kind of people. And it's a social cause. There's no way in the world I can collect. Now, lastly, you know, when you analyze, why is the demand not there? For example, in our particular society, we tried then going out to some people. Even our workers, drivers convincing them to take this pressure from government to sell. He said, it's like two hours from where my employment driver is. You know, so ultimately, if you look at the demand, there are two categories of demand. One is the educated suburban population, which all of us cater to. That population is looking at homes from 50 lakh to 1 crore, which is correctly pointed out. The other demand is EWSNIG, which is required closer to employment hubs. Because people need some commute mechanism. Surface transport is very weak in the country. So it's just not viable for them to live there. Interesting. Yeah. Anushree, looking at you, I'm thinking is that, you know, maybe you should have been 10 years older. Because had you got your product 10 years ago, we may not have been in this situation. So Anushree's project, a product is artificial intelligence. And if I correct correctly understand it, sort of right homes for the right people, assessing the demand and then thereby advising the developers what they should produce. Yeah. So thanks Anush for acknowledging me here and reality plus as well. A little bit about affordable housing. I'll generally talk about our product as well. I somehow see affordable housing as a great opportunity for the country. I see this as a cost optimization. If you talk of the builder fraternity, they are anyways constructing the inventories today. I feel if there are processes to monitor the construct today for the citizens, the question that my dear friends and realtors are debating today is that are we constructing the homes for the right audience, for the right intent of buying. If I set up satellite towns of affordable housing, will we have the right clientele, right citizens, consumers to buy those homes? The answer is great. People do not have the intelligence to understand whether I should construct in this city, this kind of area, and what kind of homes should I construct? Should I have homes which have the local vicinity of a metro station or an airport? That kind of intelligence I try to bring for the builders today through our engine which is called the estimate. So it's like builders are empowered today to know that look, my audience is here. This is what I should construct. I somehow feel that other stakeholders, let's say financial institutions which are getting into sourcing the finance to the builders, they should have a process. The disembarkment of the funds for these realtors should be through compliance. There is no process in the world which should not have any compliance. I tend to differ with good colleagues here that no process, let's say about construction and building, there's a method called CPM. So every construction which is going about in any site needs to have a matrix. How soon can you construct? When you talk about affordable housing, we need to construct fast, we need to sell fast, we need to deliver fast. That's what the basic aim of the government is here today. So I've been serving the government the past years and what I realized is a lot of PPP projects are running. A lot of guidelines are set by the government. But in terms of execution of those PPP projects, there is no compliance on the table. Ministries may pass on orders, but what about those compliance? Why are financial institutions giving huge amounts of money to those realtors who cannot execute the project, who falter at the deliveries, who do not cater to the intent of the buyer, the consumer? That's the basic problem. But I somehow feel a little moved about this concept that Viabild does not have this intelligence. Of course, with respect to KPMG and other night fight like companies, I feel they should have their own data, they should own the data through their own platform. They should know who their consumers are in the past trends. And they should also be able to predict the future trends of their own consumer. So in short, that's what this estimate, our artificial intelligence product is all about. And I feel affordable housing is a good, good go ahead for the country. It's sometimes easy for us who are sitting outside to be able to look and say, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. But when you're inside the ring and you're playing that battle, you know, this is like a, it's like a forest. I don't know where, which animal is going to come from where and which is going to snap at you. You have no idea, no idea at all. So you can read the consumer sentiments. The product can actually read. If the government says, I am passing this norm today, the product will read that. It will empower the builder to say, look, Pune is not a safe city to invest in as of now. Or maybe Hyderabad is the next IT city. I should invest into Hyderabad. So reading the market sentiment is also part of our product. We do that as well. So it'll actually empower the builder. The builder will not say, I do not know where the demand is. He will actually see it in his dashboard. That's very helpful. That is very helpful. These are two very key questions. And you know, one to my thesis is only gone for a toss in this panel. Is that, you know, where is this demand? I thought the demand was the only thing in affordable housing, which was there. I mean, Rota says no. Vinit says no. I didn't like, that was the only place where there was demand. There was no demand in premium. There's no demand in luxury. There's no demand that we are being able to find in the mid-level. And we thought that the demand was really on the affordable housing. And today on the panel, it appears that, you know, there is no demand in there as well. I don't know. Where are all the people? Second is, how do you produce margins on affordable housing? I mean, is there a game? Is there, is this only cash flow like Vinit said? Is that, you know, it's a cash flow? Is there really profitable business that you can deliver? Yes. Of affordable housing, naturally, the game changer. Anushri rightly said, Now we are moving from a traditional mindset, which we have followed. We don't want to change it. Because this is what we have seen. This is what happens. There is no thinking out of the box. Now see, we don't have the experience of real estate. We belong to the financial market. We are in the financial market since 1995. In 2013, when the affordable housing policy was designed by the Haryana government, we did a survey research. There was a very dramatic result. That any builder is not interested in the entire Haryana. He is not doing it. Even the demand is so high that if you are launching 1000 flats, within 15 days, now 5000 people are looking like a ration shop in their office. As Mr. Rota Ji Pradeep said, What demand was created? I am concerned that no, the mindset that we have left, business has changed. If we don't change ourselves, then in real time, all the corporate people or institutions will come to affordable housing. And your experience without any cost. Because the coming time is only for affordable housing for the next 10 years. Today, we are not able to understand the valuation of these companies. I believe that if I consider the number of 2013, then these lakhs, the billions in affordable housing companies will get the valuation. But the players will be completely different. I am sharing an experience of the financial market with you. In 1995, the share brokers were about 2000 near about. And the share brokers have the image of a share broker. It is a big thing to buy a ticket. But you should talk in 2017. The big brokers, 90 percent of the market has been centralized by about 20 people. And their valuation is so high, 20,000 crores for someone, 15,000 crores for someone, and 25,000 crores for someone. They have made a complaint. Why not complain? Now tell me, why not? The day you get the license for the first day, everything is mentioned on it, that you have to do this and that. So how can we get a part for the complaints? We have to do it the first day. Until now, we were not doing it. So we feel that it is difficult to get a rara. Even if you look at SEBI, which has such a strict norm. If I think someone has beer with SEBI, then rara is nothing. I think that the situation is that margin, for example, I have a client, I have to put a margin in the evening, so even if the margin is short, then you will notice that your margin has been updated. There are many things in rara that are very relaxed. In the coming time, there will be a lot of complaints here. But in nutshell, if you talk about demand, then I can only say that in the last two years, we have provided 10,000 units in the main Gurgaon, as Mr. Pradeep said, how is it possible in the Gurgaon? In the main Gurgaon, you too have provided 22 lakh rupees to people. It is not an affordable housing, it is a value-based housing. The people who are out of their thoughts, I feel that by going into this policy, in the name of understanding what is the right product for those people, there is so much demand on the bottom of the pyramid that I had launched the last project. There were 2,000 units in it. In 45 days, more than 8,000 people have applied for it. People say there is no demand. I say that in the next by 2022, more than 1 lakh houses will have been booked or some of them have been delivered. All over India. We are planning that. As soon as the developers understand this, they will come into this business as soon as possible. Otherwise, as I told you, the brokerage in 1995 was in 4%, 3% in terms of terms. If we talk about brokerage today, it is 1 crore, only 1,000 rupees. But the volume of the market is 10 lakh crore per day. If it was 10 rupees, then do a comparison that this is a volume-based business. What is the benefit of doing a volume-based business? Your quantum will lower your price. The supply you will take from your vendor will come at a better rate. And your customer you will listen to this carefully. This customer is no richer than this customer. It can be a 1 crore investment. This is a real house. This is a real house. 3 months ago, whatever the case was, it was kept in the house. I will go and give it to the developers. I think the mindset will have to be changed. The entire scene has changed. If we go from a traditional mindset that where is the profit margin? No doubt, the profit margin is very thin. But the volume is so high. And the liquidity is so high. This is the most liquid issue. The liquidity is so high that you work again and again. Your customer is giving you money. Your money is not stopping. When you win the most, you are standing at zero rate with zero inventory. Then I think you have to bring more innovative ideas like from China. Or you have to bring more things so that we can deliver these houses in 2 years the pattern of 7 years will end and deliver to people in 2 to 2.5 years. And give those houses to the people who are watching us with great hope. They have given us 20 lakh rupees to earn a lot of money. If we don't give their houses, it will be very difficult to deliver. Very nice. Just one quick, to tell everyone how much you have delivered. This is the policy of the team. The first licenses were issued in 2014. The construction started from March 15. The first project started from the government for 4 years. But we have delivered from our side. It has been 3 years. In March 2018, we are delivering the affordable housing in June 2018 and in December 2018 We are doing this for 3 years. Next time, we are trying to deliver in 2.5 years. Pradeep Ji, 2 questions to you. You are smiling. Everybody speak. I will come to you as well. Because this may be a little bit divergent view. Your views and their views are a little divergent. That is why it is divergent. Pradeep Ji, you and Rota have been in business for much longer. You have experienced a lot of it. I completely agree with you. Yes, affordable housing is viable in Gurgaon. But where is the city? Which is the city in Haryana? Under Haryana affordable housing scheme which is affordable and in Gurgaon also you are talking about 2015 where the sale prices in normal houses was 10,000 to 12,000 rupees a square feet. Today that price already down to 7,000 to 8,000 affordable housing rate fixed rate. Government fixed rate is 4,000 rupees on carpet area. So on super area basis it should not be more than 3,000 rupees square feet. Today at 3,000 it is a challenge here. You try to understand you are selling at that point of time where the normal houses were sold at 10,000 rupees and you are selling at 3,000 rupees. Today normal houses are coming at coming down to 7,000 to 8,000 so today I am sorry to say this it is not viable today also the FSI cost has gone up construction cost has gone up and your price is the constant but the customer will not will not accept your that price which was 5 years ago he will also ask some discount today. So my worry, my question is this and you know you really good go so which is the city where this is affordable? Have you touched any other other than good go? Actually this is another story actually. It is not just demand in good go even Rajnagar one of the nearest place in UP now we are launching 25 lakh square feet project in next quarter do you agree that there were more projects launched in the same community in the same same do you have do you have in Rajnagar do you have in Rajnagar no you don't need to say because you are talking about Rajnagar extension Rajnagar extension which is the benefit of you do you have actually actually sorry sorry I am sorry like in Haryana there is affordable housing policy in the name of social housing last government notified this policy now they have changed the name of this policy even there that 3000 rupees they have blocked the rate on super built up even same way in Haryana the other than city in that another scheme was launched by the government in the name of Deendaya Lavaas Yojna in which they have 100 guj's plot so you agree that the ticket size is of 22 lakh rupees the way of demand is exactly the same way the only difference is the ticket size what we are making and what people want we are making 1 crore rupees the demand of people is of 20 lakh rupees 20 lakh rupees is not for us to make photos because we have never even thought we spend so much on the necessary in those 2 crore or 4 crore that is the problem that our mindset was clean our mindset was not carried otherwise the other developers said that how is construction possible on such a low rate if it is not possible then there is no business for me why I am sitting here there is no meaning for me the difference is on how much quantity on how much speed you are delivering your delivery and how much you are taking if your payment plan is for 3 months or 6 months then you will get the price of 10 to 20 lakh rupees you cash out it and tell it to me that I will give you one day what will you rate naturally your price will come down Pradeep ji your views and then I am going to go to Annushree and Vineet it is fine but the day has come the evening is left when in 2015 Mr. Agrawal in 2015 Mr. Agrawal started selling affordable housing at that time he used to take cash all the developers the developers of affordable housing were working in the villages at that time we used to sell luxuries but the market was different now the market is different and Gurgaon is unique I don't call it affordable housing as I said earlier EWS and LIG is an entirely different category in Gurgaon where less than 1 crore rupees Sona road NH8 and your extension there is no property in 1 crore rupees or in NH8 if you make a unit of 20 lakh rupees then it suits it but when we go to Haryana in other cities I believe I have a presence almost in every city of Haryana as well as in UP and I do understand what price will be sold what you have planned that we will deliver property in 3 years then it is perfect you will get 7% margin if you don't get 8% then you will get 7% but if it is done in 3-4 months then you will have to pay and in the evening the same thing will happen if you do any work in mask then it suits in 2007 we told the world in 2006-2007 you know I give you, I am going completely off track when I go outside the country to address the global investor for IPO I was the first company to come out with the IPO you were before Rotaas Rotaas follow me you followed me you must know the entire global investment in this country I am talking $2.2 billion in real estate sector as a whole the day I file a DRHP in Sebi the entire market cap of all real estate company in India not more than 500 crore and I have filed the DRHP to raise 1100 crore rupees just you think and when we made to the people outside the country I opener I make the government to understand to allow IPO to real estate company because they said no FDI only to the FDI this is a foreign investment I was the first company to whom they allow the foreign investment foreign FAII to participate into the IPO and the time is different different again after 2 years or after 3 years when the market stabilizes some of the people they feel the RERA is a threat I feel advantage everything you need to look at as an advantage but time takes ok from last 25 years last 20 years we have done a lot we already delivered 30,000 units every day we are delivering from last couple of years we are not launching why should we launch new project under RERA under GST if you have a capability to sell the ready to build house completed and so in time to come in NCR today what I understand there is a 10,000 developer maybe 10,000 developer converted into 200 developer in last 2 years time and then you can see the people offer only the ready to win the compliance is not a threat but business you need to be settled how you want to do the business basic thing is that I am going to wind this up you wanted to add one more thing we discussed about corporate governance and I think that is what the discussion has been largely on this side you are amongst the most corporate governance high foreign money very very corporate tell us what are the challenges that you face in an environment like this to be able to adhere to the highest standards of corporate governance and then you wanted to add something on the previous topic as well so in terms of corporate governance yes we faced a lot of issues and to frankly tell you sometimes you felt that your hands and legs are tied and you are put in a boxing match so you just kind of get hit from every side because you have to comply with everything but you have to follow all the business practices of the land you can't survive without that having said that so corporate governance yes we have kind of worked out processes where we have managed to escape through the entire thing for 10 years without any kind of dot on our balance sheets or anywhere the other issue was also that we invested heavily in terms of like cpm and a whole lot of quality initiative involving a lot of global practices which we brought in here but gradually with time the budgets and the pricing have shrunk so much that we have got into handling the customer activism more so from a compliance you also have a police department, you have IT department which handles tax so there are so many of these new things which were really not planned that one day we will have to get into all that but you can't survive without that if you want to survive and deliver you have to really have those things in place and finally because your the pie size is very limited and shrinking you have to decide your priorities at the end of the day so the quality and the governance takes a hit somewhere you end up changing orators because you realize boss here chalehani a orator he is going to put you into a lot of trouble there is definitely the margins getting squeezed which puts a pressure on cost which definitely takes a toll on governance now what I was going to say was I have not met Mr. Agrawal earlier but we have a common investor so we have had this discussion without him in our office many times so our storyline was exactly what he said in 2007 we exactly said this only 20 lakh kaghor you announce and by evening it is sold out there was no different we said very limited margin efficiencies, foreign money only valuation was the only objective sir the only problem which happened over 10 years or whatever experience very limited experience I have is that two things really hit us badly that with time once because the business has a lot of moving parts there are these so many uncertainties which just hit you at any stage of the project you know suddenly one joker in the government gets up and decides a new policy and you are hit and you have not accounted that because your margins were really thin so gradually we noticed that the margins started shrinking and probably in some phases we became negative at some point in time but because the commitment was there because of corporate governance we had to deliver so we had to take a cost burn and the other big thing which you know and again the reason was same because all our guys were from the finance industry we are nobody from real estate you know so the logic reasoning was exactly what you mentioned and you know what we realized when we came to the time of valuations and trying to you know encash all the good work we had done that very few people bought into the EBITDA story in real estate you know most of the IPC especially and most of the guys who are opinion makers all they would say that how much land is its valuation and divide it and do it we were trying to harbors EBITDA 200 crore EBITDA look how much less nobody really bought the EBITDA story and still I have seen and I interact very closely with the large fund managers who specifically look at real estate and the EBITDA story is still selling you know it sells in Mexico it sells in the US where your home makers with 40,000 consistency and one of the key issues I think what people have is that to maintain a consistent supply of raw material of land is always a challenge you have market uncertainty so EBITDA really does not you know really work there so without EBITDA working valuation is always going to be a challenge so hence the decision that we do slightly upper 7000 product not a product anymore great thank you I know we run out of time but I want you to close this you know as we are at the dawn of the new era what do you believe that you can contribute with the fantastic product that you have bought in to the Indian real estate industry I feel the major stakeholder which is the builder or the developer today has the maximum skin in the game they put all the financial risk they put their brand name into the into building up inventories and homes for the citizens consumers but again getting to the topic of affordable housing affordable housing is a community mission how many of us are actually thinking of those slums which are in around the city Bombay is one big major city which a lot of slums how many of us think that those people also need homes today is it just a commercial motive to build when you talk of compliance when we talk of processes I have run the government in railways it has to be there it has to be there in real estate as well be it a construction be it a selling of the inventories real estate is entire cycle it's not just selling of inventories it is not servicing those consumers servicing those inventories as well so if the major stakeholders government A be the real estate stakeholder and the financial institution of the PPP model certain builders are here to stay for long if they will serve the masses how many of us know that 67% of the Indian population still stay on rent today and they can afford homes but they're not getting the right homes which they actually need if I'm staying in Noida I would not go want to go and stay in a Gurgaon affordable housing right so I would need affordable housing in Noida but where is that data source which will empower me be it a financial institution be it a capital market investor be it a developer that I need to construct homes in only Noida and this would be my target audience this would be my selling bracket this would be the future right I feel the government other than just coming up with policies they need to have an intermediary body which will enable the builders or the developers and even the financial institution to give them the intelligence to know where and what and how to sell all these inventories because real is the backbone of the country and the GDP is certainly going to go three folds if affordable housing is given the right support because the demand is always there as I said 67 person population need homes today and coming back to my product as I said I'm more into technology innovation I built SAS model for Indian railways meaning whatever functions the Indian railways had resources to every travel portal and online platform the same kind of platform I want to build for Indian railways. If you are owning your inventory you should have your own data you should know what has been had ten years ten years ago and what should be ten years ahead because you are the one who is constructing the homes right so that kind of a product I'm trying to build for the country and I hope everybody is enrolled in that solution. Thank you very much so just to sum this up very quickly it seems like demand is very much there Mr. Agarwal that is that seems to be the verdict. I think your point is on the land and it's not the land cost but it's the government premiums that have to be that is making land unaffordable and then how do you construct affordable on unaffordable land prices. I think your consolidation absolutely ten thousand developers today perhaps in Gurgaon 200 developers in three years times four years times consolidation perhaps the market will move to ready to move in inventory with RERA coming in that is where it does appear compliance I think all of us agree on this panel has to be met I mean it is Mr. Agarwal the point that you say there's no way about it that what was done in the past is not going to take us to the next level it has to be a different genre of of compliance that we'll have to do is I'm going to show you from your point intelligence data and have a predictive analysis rather than have a gut feel before you go and do that and we need two interesting points that you say is one is you know compliance is easy to say but difficult to deliver and then afford and hence the compromises come in and second is I think is I can conclude by saying is that the verdict is still not out on whether the developer is going to make money on this or not as you said is in his own words is what do you say that it's now evening so I think is that verdict is still yet to be yet to be seen so thank you very much with this I'll close the close the panel thank you so much I request you to stay back please because I request all the panelists to remain seated we'll take some questions I think that was an interesting panel discussion ladies and gentlemen we have a huge round of applause and we'll now keep the floor open for questions because I think let's extend the debate even further let's take your questions we are absolutely good at the time I am Ravinder Agrawal from ACRI Association of Certified Relators of India I respect Vinitji very much and you know he said he's got units for 1.5 lakhs and he can't sell it I don't know where they are so can you let us know sir you come to every conference I say this in every conference in EWS housing in Gurgaon if you want to buy as a developer it is compulsory for me to build it and get an occupation certificate before my normal housing gets a OC if you want to buy you have to get a BPL card below the poverty line card in your name apply it to the government and we will allot the unit to you it's in sector 92 Gurgaon but you'll have similar inventories to the city so the issue is that they were in the earlier days people used to just sell it to the government officers without taking BPL cards but like friend said compliance is important so we don't sell it without compliance please sir yeah KJ Karnal KJ Singh again from ACRI you see you started off very well and I am very happy that on this panel we had panelist with divergent views I tend to go by seasoned realtors who are there Mr. Pradeep Jan and Mr. Rathas Goyal and Vinit Relya you see we are mixing up somewhere and my apologies ma'am your data also we are mixing up somewhere in your data also you know what are we trying to find out they are absolutely just preparing that data she hasn't yet delivered it you know what Vinit has said he is absolutely right EWS who are the buyers in the EWS most of the EWS if they were very well located are today on the power of tourney to somebody else okay and they have been bought by somebody who could manage the BPL card irrespective of whatever his income was okay so those 1.5 lakhs houses and of course it is very difficult for anybody who is developing on Dwarka Expressway or anywhere else to sell those 1.5 lakhs that's it so signature global has done very well in the affordable housing segment but affordable housing segment like Mr. Jan said you know you were at the time when other things were available at 12000 rupees per square foot so a small investor you know who thought that he has 20 lakhs real estate to invest people have made money what should I do I will put it in affordable please if you can analyze your data and see how many are end users in that and how many are investors in his words you will realize you will realize that you know the structures will be standing there will be no takers there will be no exit so when you say whether it is a dream or reality it is a reality for the land owner it may be a reality for a builder who has been able to sell it well it remains a dream for the end user the customer who has bought the affordable housing as an investment it is going to be a dream which is not going to turn true I mean this is the verdict that we had also talked about this earlier sometime what we need is rental housing ma'am we are mixing up the people who are living in the as I said we will have to have others you know you need rental housing we understand it push for that rental housing I think it was an observation there was no question in there hi good evening my name is Chirag and I am a real estate consultant so my question is to Anurad sir we have seen both sides debating about why affordable is good and why affordable is not good and talking about Mr Abhinit that we have seen 2007 we have sold properties like Vatika and Saare homes coming up with properties starting from 2020 22 lakhs and then they have appreciated like anything they sold like crazy now if we talk about signature global as a group yes affordable housing has been sold in Gurgaon but as ma'am said that we are catering to the class that is middle income and lower income currently to pull that crowd over here and buy homes which cannot afford a crore rupee house so and considering that what is your take like will this like and that is the reason I am thinking all the big brands like adhanis or ats or for that matter rejas are coming into affordable housing segment is this whether to boost the other sales as well or to continue with this pattern that the flow is going towards affordable and we should go towards affordable only to make money or to get like people in our boat and so that we can survive or move ahead so what is your take sir I know that we are running out of time and it's not really I am as a panelist I am a moderator so I should not be taking questions but very quickly two things it cannot be because they want to sell premium that they are getting into affordable housing it's a completely different segment that guy is not going to be an affordable housing guy one second is you know I tend to agree with Mr. Agarwal that you know we have been in this industry for much longer and hence we become skeptics I value his knowledge I value what he brings on to the table I think we should give chance to people like Mr. Agarwal because otherwise you know the gentleman there what he said is our views are very much his views but I think we will have to respect and we will have to look at Mr. Agarwal and say how can he become a success because he is saying that at 7, 10, 11, 12% margin as a free standing unit I am going to make this profitable I am not doing this because I have ambition to get into premium or luxury I am making this as a business business and that is what I want to see and I do feel is that there will be people like him who are going to be successful because that is where the demand is absolutely so just to add there are developers who have already reduced their prices I will just take one minute more so developers who have reduced their prices particularly talking about Gurgaon market a builder like Raheja the property which is almost equivalent to affordable housing price so and if we calculate the capital area for affordable starts from like 400, 500% so the thing is why are the there is already a gap in terms of the percentage of reduced prices so why is that so why are the developers coming down with the prices of 4,000, 4,800 rupees per square foot in Gurgaon market and this again selling so why is that gap like of 6,000, 7,000 yes we are at the sluggish market but still like isn't it degrading our standards like the big developer standards degrading your standards sir there is one thing it is called liquidity its value is there that is what it is if you give that liquidity it will not sell you have to wait the quality is degraded if you reduce it its value will be degraded I was talking about the quality only because the prices for the products are higher and the margins are less as we were talking about that is what I mentioned I think the developers are disagreeing they are saying that the quality hasn't gone down the price may have gone down I have a question about the quality my name is Sanjay Vatwa I am an architect from SWPI Architects affordable housing we talked about somebody said the houses are going to stay somebody said you know at whatever price you are mentioning its fantastic and how achievable what is the quality of construct what is the life typically when we construct buildings we talk about 40, 50 years of life so you know land is scarce somebody talked about slums my question is that and I just don't get me wrong here I am totally talking from a design perspective nobody is making slums which will start leaking in 10 years or in 5 years you know water proofing is never our greatest can any of you tell us what is the way forward there is it really viable is it really worth it should we pursue that line at all or not actually its not like that I said get up and think we need to understand the policy whatever they said that even after launching at a low price why can't the goods be sold or why are they working at a low price the ticket size is a big challenge or quality cannot be compromised quality is one of the best quality even you see normally all the shops which use aluminum shuttering we are using all the projects even all the companies are designing how is it possible to compromise quality ok great answer sir thank you thank you very much with this I will hand it back to the young lady here thank you thank you so much I would also request Mr. Samir Dhande from Formical Lamelets India Private Limited to come forward to present mementos to our panellists I request our panellists to kindly stay back please Mr. Samir Dhande request you to come forward to present the mementos could we have a huge round of applause ladies and gentlemen not just for our panellists but for all of you those are some interesting questions also that came up I am sure you would want to connect with our panellists a little later but I think towards the end of the conclave we could connect with them and take your questions forward so that was a good start ladies and gentlemen an interesting expert debate indeed and we will be moving forward to our next panel discussion I would also request everyone to come forward for a group photograph please request all the panellists to come forward for a group photograph so thank you so much thank you once again