 Today we're going to talk about Helgi Bushing. Greg, let's tell us about the videos you're going to watch. So this guy we're going to see is Helgi Bushing and he was a friend of Christian Bruckner who is the current leading suspect in the disappearance of Madeline McCann in custody in Germany. When Bruckner was locked up for a burglary or some other crime, Helgi and a friend broke into Bruckner's house, stole a gun and some video equipment. He found some disturbing videos on that tape but didn't report it. Later, Bruckner confessed info about Madeline McCann to this guy, to Helgi, and he went to Scotland Yard 10 years ago so they did nothing. Then he felt guilty at the 10-year anniversary so he went back and reported it again. We're going to rely mostly on body language in this video because the translation you're going to see, the closed captions are AI and they're not reliable. We will clarify in a few cases but just realize it may mess up pronouns, one of your favorites, Chase, and there may be some other mistakes. That's it. Yeah, so as we go through this, remember this guy is speaking German. This is a perfect example of how you can see things a little bit better from our perspective because since it's a different language, we're watching body language even though when we do it mostly it's in English, 99.9% of the time. But you'll be able to pay attention, closer attention to the voice and how it speeds up and slows down. How it jacks up in volume and goes down. How everything changes in there and you'll see that gut feeling you get. And when people say, how do you do whatever, everybody focus on what they're saying. This time you're not going to be able to. Helgi B decided not to go to the police. He didn't want to be burdened by himself, but he's trying to avoid Bruckner from this moment. Only a year later, the guys meet again at a music festival. And then Bruckner asked me if I was going to go to Portugal again. He said, business. So I said, no, since the girl is gone, I'm not going to Portugal anymore. Because there are too many police checks and you don't need that at all. And then I said, I don't understand how the little ones can disappear without a trace. Somehow we came to them, to Mehdi. And then Christian said, there's one out there. He already drank two or three beers. I don't want to apologize to him now. But then he said, he didn't scream. And in that moment I checked what he said. I was at a clear sense and understanding of what he said. Now I know his story. What I saw on the videos. And then there's one out here. Where I was really bad. Where I was really bad. I think the other element that's being looked at here is, is this person a credible witness to anything? Because at some point it's possible that he could appear in court and keep Bruckner in prison around the Madeline McCann piece. So I guess that's what people are interested in. So that's really what I'll be focusing on. I don't know if he has any contact there or eye movement there. Yes, he does engage the interviewer, but he does go to emotional areas. He does go to pick up his story. So that's that's that bodes well as a good generality for is this person telling us something that might be honest might be real. He's he's in complement to the interviewer. I he's kind of at a 90 degree angle to him, but never turns into him. Is that a problem? I'm thinking somebody he has a criminal record. He did time in Greece for for smuggling people, human trafficking, essentially, not not a good, not a good look. And this is kind of the problem in that he needs to be credible, but he also doesn't have a good look about him. So that that is kind of what I would expect from somebody who maybe has a record to not really want to confess to people straight on to them. So I'm not too bothered by that. His baton gestures. These are the gestures that conduct along to the rhythm of your speech. His baton gestures on the whole to me seem to be really on point, very credible. Here's the big piece for me. It's clear to me know that not clear to me know that not and he slams down slams down. He places down his cup. You can hear it orderly conducting along orderly to the rhythm of his speech. So he's definitive with that and his baton gestures are congruent. So straight off the top looks pretty good to me. One nice little data point. I think he's wearing a Rolex Daytona in solid gold. That's a that's a classic look for somebody who's who's who's who's been around bit of a Jack the lad seen some time doing some crime in Europe. Classic look solid gold Rolex Daytona but do right below if you think that's a fake or if you think I've I've I've got it wrong on that. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, let's first start off by I have a good friend named Hio who's German and I had him listen to this entire thing because I can't tell the language how good or bad it is. And he said primarily the guys measured and rehearsed and that he is clearly has something to hide. Of course, there's he's got a whole lot of baggage in that felt like every time he responded it was rehearsed. There are a couple of exceptions. So you'll you'll hear the same thing without speaking German, but it's always nice to have a person who is a native speaker who knows the normal cadence of a language who can respond. Just up front. A couple of things to point out, you don't get to know things about bad guys without talking to other bad guys. When you go to organize crime, you go to organize criminals is how you find out information. It's not like chase or are going to fit in and go hey guys and suddenly get a ton of information. So you expect that when you're talking to a criminal, you're going to have some other criminal you're going to get information from. That's one of them. One of the more interesting things for me is he talks about avoiding in the words he talks about avoiding brookner because of X or Y. Well, it's kind of hard to go out and say, Hey, man, I broke in your house and I found some disturbing stuff. So he might have been avoiding him simply out of a broken your house. I don't want you to know it because he might be violent. Don't know. But think about every time a person says something, what are they hedging and what are they trying to hide? He starts off really good with a whole lot of eye contact when he starts talking about something. But then when he goes to that those videos, he goes down to some downright and some internal voice downright, meaning emotional accessing internal voice down left. When I'm watching that, I start to feel like, is there more that he's not saying here? What exactly is it that he's after? Because there's a lot more of the internal voice than there is the emotional eye accessing. And he's adapting with that glass and batoning with a glasses. Well, Mark, I think it's a really good one. The only thing in here that makes me really uncomfortable is this orphan statement. Where all of his body language is different from the rest. His eyes go down right when he gets to the story. And when one key point here, he says, we need to point out that the text says she didn't write. It actually says that she did not scream when he took her out of the apartment. That's what the actual verbiage in this thing is. But the orphan statement and all this from a body language point of view that's different from everywhere else is when he decides to use a provocative statement and elicit that response from Christian Brockner. By that provocative statement, how could they possibly even this little girl just disappear? That is a provocative statement trying to get Christian Brockner to do this. My suspicion is it didn't roll out that way. My suspicion is this came out some other way and that's why he would try to cover as much as he could. After this, he resets his posture, touches his face and rolls back in its chair. Like first message delivered, I've gotten out what I needed to say in the first one. Looks like distancing. Looks like he's trying to hide something to me. But there's lots of reasons he could. He's been in prison for human trafficking, in fact, Mark. So how do you go in and say this is a bad guy and I've been human trafficking? Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I tend to agree with Mark and Greg, both y'all. And I think there's one thing that's incredibly hard to fake, no matter how much training you have. And that is the precise timing of eye contact. And then it's a very hard thing to do even if you're a trained actor. And you'll see him mostly avoidant of eye contact here. And this, I don't think is demonstrably deceptive. He's displaying these genuine, nonverbal behaviors that we typically associate with true feelings of shame. These include him just being hunched over, his voice softening, his kind of avoidant gaze toward the table in front of him and a lack of large expressive hand movements. And most telling of all is his stillness. There's just stillness there. And it's not rigidity. There's smoothness in the stillness. It's not a matter of self-regulation. Then the moment this point comes up, there's a powerful and direct shift into eye contact and confident behavior. So different, Greg, like you were talking about. And there's just about no way I've ever seen a deceptive person be able to pull that off. And this is overall honest behavior here, which doesn't mean he's telling the truth. It means he's exhibiting what we might expect to see in an honest person. We might see something different here coming up. Scott, what do you got? You guys got about everything. So I'll just kind of brush over the big stuff. I think that deep breath, those deep breaths he's taken, that lets us know he's in deep thought about that stuff. And I agree with you, Chase. I think we're seeing a little bit of almost guilt here as he goes through it because I can't figure out what this guy's doing. I know he wants to give the heads up about this bad guy. But on the other hand, you know, why almost incriminate yourself because this one guy, I understand you want to get him off the street and get him taken care of and all that. But still, you know, those kind of guys, birds of a feather flock together. We've all heard that. So I can't figure out what he's getting out of this. And I would assume for the personality like this guy or the kind that he hangs out with, there's something in it for him. I don't know what it would be, maybe some kind of deal he's trying to make. So maybe he's in trouble then and talked about it. He's going to cut some kind of deal by giving up this information. I don't know. But there'll be something in there about that stuff. He's got a lot of facial expressions of concern. And this doesn't change. I think you said that, Mark. It doesn't change throughout these videos. It's almost a solid. I've seen it a couple of times and you see dramatic changes, but then it goes right back to this, this concern. Not a lot of eye contact, not a lot of hard eye contact. I'll say, I'll say like check in, watch and making sure he's believing what he's being told. So I think he's confident in what he's saying. So I agree with you, Chase. I think he's showing cues of being honest. I'm not saying any deception here. So I think he's being honest about what he's saying. But there's something here because he's, he's watching what he says. He's locked down. He's making sure he pays attention to exactly everything he says and he structures everything. So there's no blame coming back to him, even though he's seen some things he shouldn't have seen or seen some things that nobody else has seen that were bad. You know, why would, why would he be in a position to do that? What kind of guy we deal with? I think we already assume we know what kind of guy we're dealing with. His voice tone and cadence, they go from that really low and almost monotone to they jack up a little bit and get a little bit higher as he talks more about the details of what happened. So I think that's where he gets excited. And that's the part he's trying to ram home, in other words, to make sure he gets across. I think the clasped hands and holding the water, if it's water's why he's drinking, like Mark was talking about how he's at an angle to the guy, I think that's sort of a barrier. He's using that arm, that cup as a barrier as he's talking to the guy because he's looking down this way. He's looking down. So let's just know he's probably dealing with some kind of emotional thing because he's looking straight down. His head is down, which I would think that, that would indicate shame from where I'm coming from, from what I'm seeing, from my angle. And so he's kind of blocking from that. Not that he's going to be ashamed in front of this guy, but I think he's trying to pay attention and be careful about what he says. He does feel bad about what he's seen, but I still get the feeling something's up here that we are not aware of. Anyway. Okay, we good? Yeah. All right. Okay, Mark, I'll give you the first one, the lean in there. That was good. Classically. Mark didn't exert any effort for that. Well, that's why it's so good. You see, he's not coming. Because you don't see the preparation. One of those tape replays. Helge B decided not to go to the police. He doesn't want to burden himself, but he's trying to stop him from this moment. Only a year later the men meet each other again, coincidentally at a music festival. Yeah, and then he... At some point I asked myself, well, don't you want to go to Portugal? Do you have a business there? So I said, no, since the girl is gone, I'm not going to Portugal anymore, because there are too many police checks and you don't need that at all, somehow. And then I said that I don't understand how the little ones can disappear without a trace. Somehow we came to them, to Mehdi. And then the Christian took one out of there. He already drank two or three beers. I don't want to apologize to him now. But then he said, yes, he didn't scream. And I checked it in that moment, what he said there. I checked it, with clear sense and understanding, what he said there. Now I know his story, what I saw on the videos, and then he took one out of there, where I was really angry. Where I was really really angry. For the first time, Helge B. speaks publicly about this experience. The one sentence will accompany him for his life. He didn't scream. Helge B. claims that he informed the police and that much earlier than before. So, I called in 2008, in England under the hotline Mehdi Mekhen. And yes, my staff took it, my phone number, and I said yes, that I know someone there, who probably has something to do with it. And I gave the name to the Scotland Yard from this gentleman. But, nothing happened. Nothing happened. You never called me back, and you never took Mr. Brückner on it. And I just let it sink when I thought, they will take care of it, but nothing happened at the end. This might be because he doesn't, or he didn't come forward sooner. This might have been this, or maybe it's the effect it's had on his life, or he's maybe ashamed of even having his name associated with this person in the first place. So, if you look, when this video comes back up, there's a stillness to his body. When people try to fake a somber appearance with shame or remorse, you'll see something kind of like this, but there's two hallmark details that make me very convinced this is a true feeling of shame here. Number one, his hands are relaxed. You can see his fingers clearly on the table. He doesn't make any, like, squeezing motion to control, to exert control over himself and lock down that body language. Number two, he doesn't make confirmation glances. And this is when we're checking midway or in the middle of us talking to make sure that somebody's believing it. So, when someone is faking this stuff, you'll see restraint placed onto their own body. And this happens in the hands and feet, becoming more tight and rigid. And as kind of a rule of thumb, the further a body part is away from the head, the harder it is to control during anxiety. Secondly, when somebody's faking a deep level of remorse or any sadness, they'll almost never be able to resist the urge to briefly make that upward look at the interviewer, just to make sure that the story is being believed and we're not seeing that here. Great. What do you think? Yeah, a couple of things I would point out. However, when you're dealing with criminals, career criminals, they're not like dealing with your neighbor. They're not like dealing with a bad guy soldier, an enemy soldier. They have mastered skills that average people don't use. That's how they got themselves to where they're at in those situations. So, when you're talking to informants, when you're talking to people like that, you have to be cautious that you're not being worked by those guys. So, I'm going to approach this entire interview from that point of view. Did he have more knowledge beforehand than he has let out? Who knows? So, let's talk through this and I'll show you a couple of places that as we go through those videos that make me concerned about that. But I agree with you, Chase. He does appear to be comfortable. He does appear to be relaxed more than, now when we say relaxed, relatively relaxed, not jacked up, not his hands down. But I'll also say this, when we put all these guys, all these Green Beret guys through Seer School and we brought them in and put them in subjugation. Their testosterone went through the floor and they became compliant. That doesn't happen to career criminals in the system. So, what you have to remember is the guy's been in and out and in and out and out. He learns a lot of tricks. So, let's look for those tricks as we go. He does a lot or very little eye contact in the beginning. I think what we're starting to see is the emergence of this guy and we'll see as he gets more confidence going through. When he's trying to make a point, he looks right at the person to make sure they got his point and he moves on. He does little eye contact in the beginning than emotional eye accessing, looking down into his right. We typically associate that with if you think about a negative moment in your life, you'll find your eyes drifting down into your right, down into his right, down into your right. There's a lot of reasons for emotion because of the stuff he's talking about. You see adapters and barriers. This is not a young guy. His legs moving that much is a fair amount of leakage, a fair amount. A young guy in his 20s, you see a lot of that. But a guy who's probably 50 to 60, you don't see quite as much of it often. He's barriering with his hands folded. That's a containment way and he might be something he's learned. I believe, however, that he never heard back from Scotland Yard because his eyes are in that kinesthetic and disengaged with you. Usually we'll see a guy darting around down here left and right, but there's not that what I would call the thousand yard stare, which is disengagement. Watch his eyes disengage as he goes internal. That's a big deal. Then he raises his head and makes hard eye contact as he reinforces that. And there's the verge of this brow, this grief muscle, this little horseshoe arch right through here. We call it the grief muscle because the original guys Darwin and Duchain called it that, but it's just a cluster of five muscles that create this horseshoe right here. He's right on the edge of that. That does look like grief or shame. Why? We can't really tell that. And right after he says all that we see a flurry of movement and a short flurry of single shoulders. So I think that's uncertainty about how he's going to be perceived. There's a tongue jut and intake breath. Maybe it's because he's dealing with the law and when you're dealing with the law and you've been in trouble, you probably don't want any more trouble. Scott, what do you got? Great. Can you educate us when you said going internal just to kind of give people understanding? So I'm sorry, Scott. Yeah, that's a great question. Look, when I'm talking to you and we're making eye contact and we're talking to each other, that's externally focused. I always talk about energy direction and focus. An internal focus means I'm working on something internally whether or not and your eyes typically disengage. They disengage making eye contact with the person. They may even look like they're looking at nothing. A thousand yard stare because what's happened is all of that processor that they are required to use to figure out what's next or how this is going to be perceived or whatever takes their eyes out of focus. You don't see it all the time. You don't see it many times in these videos with criminals who are trying to focus on you and have that romance removed. But this guy doesn't do that. You see that and go back internal to his body. Scott, what do you got? Thanks, Chase. Great. Yeah, and as far as asking that question, that's the most uncomfortable thing as you all know when talking to Dr. Phil and doing that show where you just sit there and explain things you know he already knows but you're just like you're telling him that's so uncomfortable, man, because he looks all interested like engage with and you want to stop and go, you know that he knows this and it's weird for me to tell him this too. That's always so weird and sometimes I think about that when I'm saying something like I'm telling you guys stuff. Do you guys get that too or is it just me? Sure, yeah. Yeah, that's weird. It's always weird. Anyway, yeah, I agree with you. I think the behavior someone shows regular old people or regular old person would show is much different than somebody who's a criminal or who's done time or lives in that world. So we're seeing that's why we're seeing him be contained. We're seeing him locked down. He's making sure he doesn't say something to get him in trouble. I think that's a lot of what's on his mind and he appears to be engaged as illustrators are all right on time, right where they should be. They're all laying in the right spots on his head shaking and his head nodding. All those things seem to be right in time with what's happening. Those in this case don't mean either yes and no. These are just confirmation nods and confirmation shakes as you're saying I'm telling you, I went every day this week. Doesn't mean I didn't go. It's just me confirming that by those hitting at the right time. You see that quite often people say, oh, I shook his head no as he was saying something yes. Those things happen really subtly. If the person said, I went every day this week. Yes, that's different. I'm getting that from Paul Ekman from the studies he did. Anyway, his blink rate is fairly low. So there's definitely an issue here because of all the things moving around, but the blink rate stays so low. I don't think it's up in his head where it's stressing him. I don't think we're seeing the stress from that. We're seeing release stress with some of these adapters with his legs jiggling and moving around. Like Greg's talking about those adjustments, but I'm not seeing a lot in the blink rate. That doesn't seem to be changing much at all. What else have I missed that you guys haven't gotten? I'll move on from there. Mark, what do you got? First thing I know, really from the first video is he doesn't look like he has a strategy for lying. Not a grand strategy. Not one that you could pick up and go, oh, I see what you're doing. I see exactly what you're doing. There's nothing big that strategy for lying. The second video here, I agree with you, Greg, on this idea of nothing happened, the British police did not respond to the information that he gave. And this is an important point because in terms of his credibility, if it's not credible that he did try and help out, if that's not credible for a start, then nothing is credible going on. So it's a important thing to establish. He says nothing happened, and there is what I would say a methodical nodding of the head, which involves the whole of the body on this. So I would say when he says look, nothing happened that that's honest, that's true. Which if we work backwards it's maybe honest and true that he did inform the police of something. Now, just as everybody's saying is he still withholding some of that? Well, possibly, and there's all kinds of reasons that he do it. Now, also, you know, is he just a really good liar? Well, being dishonest will be a day, it will have been a day to day thing for him. There is no honour amongst thieves. He will break into his friends you know, apartment caravan and take stuff. You know, that's you know, and having worked with people who are career criminals. Yeah, they will show petty you know, in some cases petty as he's been described as petty career criminals. I wouldn't quite class him as that smuggling people is not in that realm. But in the realm of like entering, you know, daily entering people's homes and walking off with goods. Yeah, they do that on a daily basis. I would have I would be working with people and they would come in with a suitcase full of stuff and it wasn't theirs. And that was nothing, nothing to them. That's just daily stuff daily work like you and I do our daily work as well. It's nothing to them. So look, being dishonest can be water off a duck's back to somebody like this. However, look, there are strong, consistent prolonged patterns of behavior from him. Whatever he's doing it goes on for a while and it stays for a while. He isn't erratic with things. He's relatively fluid and consistent. Now also you might go well, hang on though. Yeah, no honor among thieves, but I mean, you know, he's accusing somebody or has accused somebody of something, a very very serious crime here, you know, abduction abuse, serious serious crimes. Well, look, what I understand and have experienced with the criminal group is when it comes to sex offenders, all bets are off. If you're a sex offender, then you are a target for the criminal group unless you're in that group of sex offenders. And so there's every reason why if he sees somebody who he believes is part of that group, he is justified as being part of his group to come in, attack and take that person down. So it isn't unusual to see somebody from that criminal group attack this other criminal group and in a very, very strong way that would be seen as well, a good move from his criminal group to take somebody down of that nature. That's all I got on that one. One of those tape replays. For the first time, Helge B openly talks about this experience. The one sentence will accompany him for his life. He didn't scream. Helge B claims that he has informed the police and that much earlier than before. He called Scotland Yard in England under the hotline Maddie McCann and he took my personal phone number and I told him that I knew somebody who probably had something to do with it. And I gave Scotland Yard the name of this gentleman. But nothing happened. Nothing happened. He never called me back and he never took the gentleman's phone number. And I just let it sink when I thought they would take care of it but nothing happened. Nothing. So, in 2008, Helge B first informed the police. Should Scotland Yard actually have had a record of 10 years before without going after him? Only in 2017, almost 10 years later, Helge B returns to the police. So this contact recording came after my release in Lamiya. I lived there. This is also a Greek mainland. I lived there. When I heard about the 10-year anniversary I don't know anymore. I think I watched it on YouTube. It's actually a sad anniversary but it was the 10-year anniversary. What brought me back to the head back then, my call to Scotland in 2008, I didn't use anything. And I was already released and then from Greece I contacted Scotland Yard again. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is one I'll be pretty short on. Again, if he's done bad guy stuff, which he has, he was in Lamiya when he's talking about being in Greece for human trafficking. Yeah, he's one of the bad guys in the United States. I had a buddy one time who was an undercover cop in New York for like 20 years, Puerto Rican guy. And this guy could talk anybody out of anything. And I asked him, how did you learn that? He said it's how I stayed alive. So when you're dealing with people like that and you're not one of them, you have to learn how to behave like them. And people end up in trouble a lot of times because what you always say, fish tastes like what it swims in and those guys have to be very careful. They don't turn into people they're with. And he's got a lot of different levels of illustrators. I mean, a whole lot more illustration than he had otherwise. And then one of the single best displays of grief, I think I've seen in a long time that withdrawn chin and the chin boss engage is either shame, remorse or both a combination. Then he goes back down to his own right back down to that emotional eye accessing. And who knows why? I mean, there's can be all kinds of reasons. Hey, I wish I'd stayed on it. Hey, I have other information that could cause something. Even if he didn't feel remorse or emotion years ago, he certainly feels it now when he's thinking about this. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with you there, Greg. And I was going to do exactly the same gesture when he talks about the 10th anniversary. He does a rotational gesture. Again, totally congruent, totally congruent. So again, makes me feel like he's not making up this idea of the 10th anniversary because why have the rotational gesture there? It's not something you'd imagine doing. I'll say, okay, I'll talk about the 10th anniversary and I'll do this gesture. Totally congruent. So that bodes well for him. He's very open. What I notice about his language as well or intonation, my German is not good in any way whatsoever. However, my own English language is derived from German. So we have similar intonations as well. There is a lot of downward intonation there, which bodes well. Now, different languages have different intonations which can create different meaning to the same sonics that are going on. But this persistent downward intonation knowing enough about how English is derived from Germanic bodes well that he's giving us clear instruction as to what went on, rather than asking us questions about it and seeing whether we're buying this idea, he doesn't seem to need us to buy this story which, again, looks good. It got me thinking, he says, and he points to his mind. Again, it points towards his head. Again, congruent seems good. No gestures that I've seen so far are outside of what I call second circle. So I suggest that when people are gesturing and they've always got their arms or some limbs or some fingers or something attached to their body in some way, I'll say, OK, so they're gesturing in first circle. OK, and it'll always look, you know, a bit buried or a bit protective. Second circle for me is you get some space under here and you don't get any part of the arm or the hands or the limb touching the rest of the body. Third circle is when those limbs lock out and we've seen people before who, when they're gesturing about the story, they're doing illustrators, they go right out of the frame. So at that point, I know, well, you've probably gone certainly outside of second circle. You might even be hitting third circle. Now, it's a bit like that kind of the Truvian man. It's reached out completely. Nothing, nothing into third circle, which again means he's not trying to convince us of this story. Now, look to everybody's point so far. Maybe he's a good enough of a career criminal that he's realized, well, you never get anywhere convincing somebody of the story. You've got to be light with it. You've got to. But he has for me this air of and I'd love other people's view on this, this air of confession to him. There are the hands in front of him. The body is down. There's a sense of being not slumped in total protection, but this is the last move. He's got no other move to make. This is the confession move. Again, it could be a great career criminal and he's thinking, wouldn't it be fun to increase Christian as time in prison and make up a story around this? It's a possibility. But so far he doesn't seem to show the behaviors that I would want to see of somebody trying to convince me of a story that isn't true. Scott, when you go on this one. Yeah, I think you nailed it on that part. He's not trying to convince him of anything. He's just telling him. He's just talking at this point to what happened. I think that goes back as well. We can see that as he's looking down, thinking his eyes are jetting around as he's going through these things he's seen. I think he's in his mind's eye going over these things he's seen and has talked about. At the same time, I think he's structuring what he says, being very careful about the way he delivers and he's still as Greg always says, he's contained. And the guy, the look of the guy, the guy has a little scar right there. He looks mean. In other words, when you're walking to talk to somebody like that, you go, here we go. This is probably a rough one. But he seems fairly mellow. He doesn't seem violent or anything, but he has that movie look to him where it looks mean. We see that leg jiggling and the visioning. That goes way up compared to what we've seen so far. It's dramatically increased. And that deep swallow before he starts talking and a little bit before that, he squirms around a little bit and he gets that quick head to the left there to be your right and the left. Anyways, quick head jab there to the left. I think he's trying to make a point there. I think he's rambling home. In other words, I've said that before. What are you saying? He's making sure that that point gets across. The confirmation now is let us know that is called the police. That was a big deal for him. And I don't think that worked out. And I think that that bothers him. So again, I'm already, I'm not biased. I'm just saying these kind of, this type of person, they hang out together. So I'm pretty sure he's not the greatest guy in the world. But for that to bother him, it must be really bad, excuse me, it must be really bad what this guy's done if he's trying to tell what happened. He must think this guy is really bad. So I think that's where he's trying to get across there. I see a little bit of adapting with that left thumb on his right hand while he's talking. He's trying to get some of that built up stress tension. He doesn't look that stressed. I mean, he looks stressed because he looks like he's worried and he looks a little concerned, but he doesn't look like he's worried about anything like he doesn't keep locking eyes with the guy like we were talking about before. And the lowered head when he's answering those questions, that's almost it's so low. It's almost eye blocking. It goes down so far when he's talking about that as well. And I think he's trying to I don't know if he's trying to sell this guy this stuff, because the interviewer is so receptive to what's going on. You look at him and you go, wow, that guy's really into what's happening. In a couple of minutes, you're going to seem to start mirroring Helgi. You're going to seem to start mirroring him and mirroring and matching. So I think that's fairly interesting, but the interviewer looks really into what's happening. We talked about that in the break earlier. So I think he feels like he's getting this point across, not that he's overdoing it, but I think he feels like at least he's being listened to at this point, but still I get the feeling there's something in it for him. I don't know what. Again, I'm not being biased. I'm just saying that personality type, those kind of guys hang out together and he's admitted to hanging out with the other guy. So I can't imagine he'd be doing something without there's something being something in it for him. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I agree. I don't think this is 100% altruistic where he's just kind of giving himself and most people would most people would probably do something because there was some kind of gain for themselves, especially this because he's destroying his life for it. There's no prominent real clusters in this video because we talk about that a lot. One thing we do see is a continuation of these spikes in confidence every time he's conveying information he thinks is important to the issue and this is about seeing the 10th anniversary on YouTube and it being such a sad event and the translation is a little poor here so I'd feel a little bit irresponsible and maybe not a real expert if I started diving into these topics here and one of the things that I always teach here is the five C's and why they're important in those five C's are change, context, clusters, culture and checklist so changes in behavior this is once we know a baseline how they made normally we look for changes to that and these are in order of importance according to me I don't know if the guys agree or not but context is next this is all about the situation just because somebody's acting a bit off doesn't mean that they're lying things like circumstances people in the room cameras being there all that stuff is very important to take into account what's going on then we have clusters so we need to look for patterns and these little clumps of behaviors see one little stressful behavior you're probably not seeing very much these things tend to happen in clusters and pairs and culture is there you got to remember to take culture into account for instance avoiding eye contact in some cultures is a sign of respect it's not a red flag so culture can be anything from a family a small family culture Greg talks about this on a regular basis it's just a micro culture where these idiosyncratic behaviors are pretty common they can become a culture inside of a prison where people start behaving certain ways or an entire region of the world or a country can be a culture and finally we have this checklist and kind of like maybe a guidebook and these are just the common signs that people are showing when there might not be being straight with us what are the most common things we're likely to see and that would be the checklist so remember the checklist is just one part of the piece and in this there's a translation mix up and it's about him reassuring that he's the one who contacted Scotland Yard so if you read that in the in closed caption stuff that was the mix up in this particular clip and we'll get into that later that's all we got throughout the season and what order they be in everything as you know here's that thing where I feel like I'm talking bad to you but I'm not when you deal with any kind of body language you deal with you decide whether you're seeing something that's limbic or you see something that's cultural so maybe scoot the cultural up towards that because that's really where that's the way I approach it anyway is the limbic than cultural then down from there I take the other approach I say we all are capable of exactly the same movements unless culture says don't do that well context dictates our permission to do different things I can strip down naked in front of a shower I'm not going to do it in the middle of a shopping mall or an airport but that's not the culture that's context that dictates permission that's a good call a lot of behavior I'm thinking what's happening in context with what's happening in real time in other words I'm saying Joe Navarro that's another one I always feel like a rip in him off every time I open my mouth but I think Joe Navarro has taken it from Hans Sharf and guys the first the first guys will go back and say back to Darwin, back to Duchain in the 1860s published a book about all this stuff the things we talk about with grief muscle the things we talk about with smiles they were talking about this in the 1860s so yeah we're standing on other people's shoulders but other people are standing on yours too and then Play-Doh like 100 AD right well in 1962 a lot of us are leaning on Desmond Morris a lot of us Chase you talked to Desmond Morris earlier about it's harder to control the hands than the face that's Desmond Morris 101 if you get a chance go through and Google Duchain de Bologna and then as and what it does is it shows him taking he's taking pictures of what this guy called the old man and he's put these little electric things on his face so his muscles contract and let go and contract and let go but when you do that look at his hands man they're nasty I don't know what this cat was doing man but his hands are absolutely nasty I don't know why that's why it could be which guy you're talking about the doctor Duchain he's doing Voltaire's batteries they're in battery acid most of the time this is dirt though man you can see it's dirty it's nasty every time I show a slide like that every time I show a slide like that during training I look at that and I want to say can you believe how nasty this guy's hands are himself in the pictures he's right beside the old man and he's doing it all you know then you can see his hands go google that and look up his hands they're nasty well maybe he was an avid gardener yeah yeah it could be maybe he was best flowers in Bologna one of those tapere plays 2008 also we Helge B. die Polizei zum ersten mal informiert haben es konnte ja tatsächlich 10 Jahre früher eine Spur zu Brückler gehabt haben ohne ihr nachzugehen erst 2017 bei einer 10 Jahre später bennet sich Helge B. erneut an die Polizei also diese Kontaktaufnahme kamen nach meiner Entlassung in Namir hab ich dann gewohnt das ist auch in griechischen Festland dort hab ich dann gewohnt und diese Kontaktaufnahme kam dann was ich als ich gehört habe von dem 10 jährigen Jubiläum ich weiß nicht mehr ich glaub ich hab das auf YouTube geguckt das ist ja eigentlich ein trauriges Jubiläum aber das war dann halt das 10 jährige Jubiläum was mir dann wieder das in den Kopf gebracht hat also damals mein Anruf bei Scotland Jahr 2008 hat da eigentlich gar nix genutzt und ich war aber schon entlassen und hab dann also von Griechenland aus das Scotland Jahr formatiert nochmals doch dieses mal geht Scotland Jahr im Hinweis nach es kommt zu einem Treffen, zur Ermittlung und schließlich zum Prozess Helge B. ist Zeuge aufgrund seiner Aussage wird Christian Brückner zu 7 Jahren Haft verurteilt für Helge B. der Beginn eines ganz persönlichen Dramas also ich habe nicht damit gerechnet welche Dimensionen das überhaupt annimmt das war mir eigentlich nicht so klar und ich glaube ich würde das heute nicht wieder noch einmal machen ich würde das heute wenn ich sowas glaube ich wüsste ich würde das nicht nochmal machen weil es hat ja mein Leben auch ruiniert ich war eigentlich da wo ich war sehr glücklich gewesen ich hatte meine Arbeit ich hatte keine Sorgen die ging es finanziell nicht und das war dann auf einmal alles weg wie ist das, warum war das plötzlich auf einmal alles weg weil halt irgendwelche Leute bei mir vor der Tür gestanden haben weil Leute bei mir auf der Arbeit waren und es wusste ja keine auf der Arbeit nachher haben das dann meine Nachbarn mitbekommen die dann natürlich auch nicht gut auf mich zu sprechen sind was wieso kennt der jenige so einen Typen ja das frage ich mich dann heute manchmal auch noch ja und dann kann ich das von mal nicht mehr das hat sich ihre Vergangenheit eingeholt ja der größte Fehler meines Lebens der größte Fehler meines Lebens dass ich halt diese Videos mitgenommen mal am liebsten hätte ich mir gewünscht nix gewusst ja auf der anderen Seite haben sie damit möglicherweise wer weiß es ist noch nicht ganz absehbar aber möglicherweise zur Auflösung eines der spektakulärsten Kriminalfelder der Welt beigetragen also sie sind ja jenige der es ausgelöst hat ja stolz bin ich nicht drauf selbst wenn es mal zu der verurteilung kommen sollte stolz bin ich nicht drauf okay Mike what do you got yeah so i'm not proud of it either so he doesn't use this opportunity so there's an opportunity here to elevate himself because you know he's given evidence to police he's done his best he's pointing the finger at Brookner for you know a crime that is one of the biggest crimes that we've ever come across or mysteries that we've ever come across he says I'm not proud of it either so he's not using the opportunity to elevate himself that is odd for somebody who's trying to be deceptive makeup stories and has a you know which which or has a narcissistic complex and wants to use this opportunity he says he's never been given any money for this there is no other there's nothing in it for him other than altruism I agree that probably there may be some other aspects in there you know now he's been seen to give evidence against somebody in his community shall we call it that doesn't bode well for him because he won't have any friends in that community or outside of that community because you know he talks to police and that's that's never seen as a good thing however so within all of that what's interesting for me is he when he takes that drink of water I think it is water that he's drinking there and exactly how he drinks that and when he drinks that I would sense that that is anger there's a resolve in the water drinking but I think there's anger there as well he's using the water as a as a barrier essentially or as a comfort or something to help him moderate those feelings of anger in him around this situation he's a big guy he's a you know he's Dutch big he's got that upper body strength he's scarred he will have seen violence in his time I imagine he's able to dish out some violence and maybe able to moderate it when he needs to I think he could control it if he couldn't control it he'd have been in prison a lot more than he has been from what I understand so I think that water drinking is his control of anger go back look at it see whether you think I'm right on that Scott what you got on this one I think we're seeing the most head move that we've seen so far and his cadence is really fast compared to what it's been it is slowing down it's speeding up he's going through this his eyes are darting everywhere so I think there may be an issue here we're still getting a lot of those deep breaths plenty of those and I think that cup I think he's using it almost as a prop to sit there and give his hand something to do which of course ends up being an adapter and he's still sort of burying with his arm at the same time so there's I think he's got that cup and gives him something to do something to look like he's focusing on gives him the classic lean forward looking at the cup giving him something to do as he's talking so it's not as weird as looking at the ground at the table and this is where the interviewer starts mirroring because when Helge sits back then the interviewer sits back as well if he's doing that on purpose I don't think he is I think he's naturally doing it because there's that little pause usually when somebody's mirroring you'll see it happen a lot faster than this kind of thing but the flow seems to go well there were some studies done in the late 60s or early 70s where they would film families eating and they would all all of a sudden start moving almost in concert with each other somebody would move this way and somebody else would move this flow happening there and I think that's what we're seeing in this is this flow happening between him because this interviewer he looks like he's listening to him he's squinted, he's forward he's got his hand on his chin part of the time listening and he covers his mouth so letting him know he's not going to interrupt so he can keep speaking which I think is a great tool for a lot of interviewers so if you're interviewing people out there but it seems to flow very well so I think the guy's a pretty good interviewer and he's really committed to getting some information from this guy without poking too hard I think again no hard eye contact but the contact is there but it's not again it's not the type where he's making sure that he's being believed he's just looking at him and making sure they're connecting that's the only thing he's making sure of I think at that point at the beginning he looks like he's listening the interviewer but then going back while I was talking about earlier watching just slowly going to this thing where he that's where he starts covering his mouth to make sure he knows he's not going to be interrupted what else have I got you guys covered so far oh yeah at the beginning we see several little quick shoulder shrugs while he's talking I think it's because he's he's again watching what he says he's very contained so I think he's a little worried about what he's saying so when he starts talking that shoulder pops up a little bit not that he's not being honest, not that he's being deceptive it's just I think he's unsure because maybe he didn't he didn't have that answer prepared a lot of this stuff looks prepared almost in an odd way but I don't think this section of it was but I get to feel a lot of this is prepared he's thought through this one we're going to say what can't I say if I'm going to talk about this I've got to leave this part out so I think we're seeing a lot of things missing from some of this stuff so he doesn't incriminate himself I think the tongue jut there toward the end that's just an adapter I don't think there's any he's not hearing something maybe he's uncomfortable from what the guy's asking him but I think it's just because he does it several times throughout these videos and I don't think it's that big a deal Greg what do you got? yeah Mark I do agree with you I think that's anger in the very end I'm going to run through a few things that's anger and I think that anger is partially caused by the interviewer making this seem like he's being a good guy and not being able to read his source if I were talking to this guy wouldn't go oh you did it when you already see the guy is irritated because you see his fight or flight increase and I'm going to go backward in backward order on this one but you can't miss that his fight or flight increases because his respiration increases in his jaw sets that shows me that there's fight or flight going on he fidgets a little more I would think there's anger and I think the water is a way to slam and control it I agree it's a sudden move I also think when you're in fight or flight it's a good way to contain some of that because mucus membranes dry out and all that kind of thing so I think this interviewer would have done well not to say well you're going to contribute to goodness of society because something is up that causes him to feel that way if you listen I'm going to tell you two different things you'll see if you watch this interview Scott I agree this is not rare first this is him speaking and he's telling and he's got downward intonation and he's rolling along and his body language is saying it and his eyes are saying it and everything saying when we're listening to him talk about the video and the things he found it was camped and controlled and that it was control release he's trying to ensure he doesn't release a detail that causes him grief there's another really interesting thing just watch this remember we said earlier that probably in his style is once I make a point I look at you and make sure you got it that's not a hard hey I'm worried about what you think it's hey chase you understand what I mean right well that's it that's all you have to do he does that when he's talking here he did not do that earlier he did not do that when he's disclosing this information and then the single most important thing he said in this entire thing let me back up first Scott I'm surprised you didn't mention his fading facts when he talks about his life imploding to show that he throws it away that's the way it should be if I'm saying my life is gone that sounds awkward if I got my life is gone that sounds real and so it's one of those cases where a fading fact should be there then the single most important thing and it's a source lead and it's missing here there's when you're talking to a person and they do something that's this out of the norm stop and ask what they mean he's rattling along he's telling the story saying this happened and this happened everything was good financially look at him when he says financially he says things were going well at least financially chin drops covers his throat tone and cadence shift by tone we mean you all know what that means it's not what you said so he said it listen to the tone of his voice change listen that cadence shift I don't have to speak German to know something changed in his head and something changed in his voice there's a deep swallow right at the end of it and then there's kind of a grimace as he pulls it back his the sides of his mouth back all when he said at least financially hmm why did we let that pass well because that's not what interviewers do but if you're interrogating you want to know if all's good then what wasn't would be my question what happened I think this is a crux the story there could be other people involved there could be somebody discovered that he knew something you didn't who knows but something's here something's big in that we will find out at some point whether he knows more than he's letting on yet or something else it rolls out here and then he leans back again and does that's it it's beautiful you can't miss this this is the single most important video I think we'll find that he is hiding facts chase what you got I don't know what the hell I'm supposed to say after you guys covered all that stuff I want to share something with you while you're watching this that I think will really help you forever and you can screenshot it if Scott can put a graphic up right here hopefully the graphic is up here on your screen now I mentioned baseline in the last video so let's talk about it really fast what baseline are we actually seeing here in the situation if you're watching this at home you can draw this out you can draw the two giant big plus signs here or x y axis on the left side this is the nonverbal baseline smooth confident on top and insecure and stiff on the bottom and the left right axis there's opening and revealing on the left and then closing and protecting out on the right so now the right diagram this is verbal baseline how do they communicate the vertical axis should have revealing on top and concealing down on the bottom and on the left side of that axis is focused like focused on a subject and then vague on the right side so the baseline we're seeing here in these videos is nonverbal he's being smooth and confident but closed and protecting so we're looking for maybe some deviations to that and on the verbal side we're seeing focus communication it's also revealing most of the time so where his language is just specific and focused on one topic so think of this like revealing axis is how vulnerable somebody is willing to be and the only translation error here in this video and I did have it translated for you he repeats that he's not proud again in this video one of those tape replays but this time it's god and jade in the background it comes to a meeting, to a meeting and finally to the process Helge B is a witness because of his statement Christian Brückner is sentenced to seven years the beginning of a very personal drama so I didn't expect what dimensions it would take that was actually not so clear and I don't think I would do it again today I would do it today if I knew something like that I wouldn't do it again because it ruined my life I was actually where I was very happy I had my work I didn't have any worries at least financially and that was all gone why was it suddenly all gone? because some people stood in front of me because people were at work with me and no one knew after that my neighbors came who of course are not good at talking to me why do you know guys like that yes I still ask myself sometimes and then I can't do it anymore that means that you took in your past the biggest mistake in my life the biggest mistake the biggest mistake in my life that I took these videos with me at least I wish I didn't know anything about it on the other hand on the other hand maybe but maybe for the resolution of the most spectacular criminal case of the world you are the one who solved it yes, I'm proud of it even if you should come to an agreement yes I'm proud of it Christian Brückner introduced the little media so this is my theory my then this can Christian can't introduce he is still innocent my theory is that he had a break and that somehow went wrong and he found the children in the apartment 100 and that was the only moment that's my theory that probably wasn't planned that's why I'm going strong that it wasn't planned it was just a coincidence you you knew him yes you saw these videos do you believe in such a fact such a coincidence? yes, such a fact I would trust after what I know everything I can trust such a fact he suspects Brückner of poor impulse control and being able to turn coincidence into opportunity and into crime so this is juxtaposed with I think Helga here who is able to control himself quite well I think you're right Greg in that previous video we have anger we have anger because you've got an interviewer going yeah but you're a great guy you're a great guy and he doesn't want to be told what his feelings are about anything or whether he's done something morally right because ultimately he's informing to police and that gives him no friends whatsoever but he's able to control those impulses and we know he's able to control his impulse because he's a big guy and yes he has been convicted of violent acts but not as many as you would be convicted on if you weren't able to control that violence in my opinion so he looks down I think on the person who has poor impulse control what can we know about this person with poor impulse control well it's very similar to other criminals that we've come across where they're able to turn an opportunity that presents itself not necessarily premeditated but an opportunity that presents itself which is reminiscent of a fantasy situation that they have and turn that immediately into an act because they don't have that part of their psyche that would say no no hang on just keep that as a fantasy it's not right that you turn that into an actual physical thing right now don't do the act poor impulse control that's all I got on this one but I think it's interesting that he's able to come up with what would we say a psychology a motivation for the other actor in this and somebody making this up I don't think would have the foresight to come up with here's the psychology that I think is happening here what do you go on this one I think what he may be doing is taking away some of the evil from the guy just my opinion by taking away some of those attributes he goes out of his way how many times do you say my my theory he says do I have to speak German to know that he just goes and says over and over so when we get to that he's now saying look this guy had poor impulse control he can go there steal this girl this happened as that may be a chance to remove some of the monster from the abductor because he's already established that he's one with him that they're friends that they're acquaintances and it's already cost him a lot then however given the chance he pushes himself away from him entirely when he says but so mark I think you're right he's saying what he thinks he's saying but once I knew who he really was I stopped associating with him he pushes himself away from it and you can't miss the body language there as he's getting demonstrative again and that becomes powerful we see one of these single most congruent yes messages everything all going at the same time his head and all of that when he's asked would does he think that Christian Bruckner would dare video more than the attacks he saw he goes yes that's a lot of emphatic yes that's a lot of body language going yes I believe he did that has he seen something he's not telling us that's the question I would ask right here if I were sitting across the table this could be key evidence that the prosecutor cited remember there's a reason that the Germans are saying I don't think the German court system is liable to come out and broadcast something to the world saying we've got the abductor and we're certain of X that's awfully bold without any kind of evidence that we haven't seen Chase what do you got yeah and I think one thing if I'm ever doing an interview with a person and I hear judgment come out like Mark you were talking about this impulse control this lack of impulse control if I'm doing an interview and I hear some kind of judgment come out I always wonder what that person's shadow is because we tend to judge people from our own shadow a lot and most people judgment comes from something that we're suppressing something we're ashamed of in ourselves so it's always something that should trigger some curiosity and this video is showing changes to his baseline and here's what we look for there's an increase in uncertainty there's a drop in confidence in one part of this video there's a decrease in verbal fluency specifically the changes here that are present are a shift in breathing an increase in eye contact and an increase in hesitancy which is just the pausing for the answer so great we've identified a change but what comes after change on this little 5C's model next is context in this instance he's being asked his opinions and not hard facts so an increase in uncertainty hesitancy and a decrease in fluency of language would be absolutely expected here because he's being asked his opinions and just kind of deliver some conjecture here to speculate about the case so we see that the moment we look at the context we spotted a change but now we go to level 2 context makes those behaviors more likely that's all I got there Scott all right now for me Greg you're saying the one before this was the most important video from your point of view from my point of view this is the most important one because I think it tells us everything this is where he starts that hard eye contact making sure that guy believes him that's why he's looking at him at this point everything slows down here his voice tone gets slower his cadence slows down everything gets everything starts slowing down here gets smaller and again it's the most eye contact we've seen so far and we do hear fading facts here at the end of that one sentence as he goes on but I think that's more from an emotional standpoint that's one of the things Greg earlier I kept looking at I put that in my notes but I think it's because I'd seen that as an emotional thing from deception I usually add that in deception now when he starts talking about his theory that's where we see that hard head jerk over there to the left it wasn't a single shoulder shrug or anything like that usually that will come up and you'll see that jerk or they'll go over that way point their chin that way and it comes up but it was a hard one because I think that synapse in there when that thought hit his brain when he's thinking I'm part of this or I have seen this myself that's why he keeps saying it's a theory keeps saying my theory my theory because he knows what happened either he saw it on the video stuff or the guy told him himself what happened that's why he keeps reiterating the theory part that's where I'd start digging in that's where I'd go from being the nice guy hey what's going on you know tell me about that's when I'd start turning into a meaner person trying to get information from that point put him on notice that I know something's up that would be my approach in this one because something's up right here he's letting this he's he's telling that he knows what happened why would he keep saying my theory my theory you're right Greg he says my too much my theory my thing too much and that that all of a sudden that head pop like that that's energy being expanded for no reason whatsoever except for a thought that's fired from a neurological standpoint a thought that's fired off and that that shocks him or doesn't shock him but it jerks him into hey man shoot this is it I think something's up here this is I think he's going to need I think my I think my theory my theory as to why he's doing this it's because he's going to need to make a deal later that's what it is and he's holding this information back or something but he's got to make a deal later and that's that's what's going on here he's either letting him know he's got this information and this is how he's going to do it instead of his large going and saying he's got this information this is just what I think but that's what it looks like to me yeah okay we good yeah dang chase that's it that's smooth yeah very smooth not dramatic not colorful good one of those tape replays but Helge B is still secure Christian Brückner has led the little Maddie so that's my theory my then that can't the Christian now not he's still still innocent my theory is that he had a break and that somehow went wrong and he always found the child and that's what I think that's my theory that probably wasn't planned that's what I think that it wasn't planned it was a coincidence you know you knew him you saw these videos do you believe in such a fact? I would definitely trust such a fact that after what I know about him I can trust such a fact yeah back to your feeling life we're almost done I can't imagine how it feels the most important witness in one of the most famous criminals in the world how does it feel bad that I don't feel good I don't feel good anymore I don't feel good anymore that's my health that's what I think I took over I have my phases where I went through I have phases where I don't sleep for a long time so it's not a nice feeling I think no one wants to trade with me and always such a kind of flow that it doesn't really take care of everything when you say something when you tell something so our friends family I don't have any friends anymore but true friends I don't have anymore my last friend died in October and of course I wasn't allowed to go to the funeral that's how sad my life looks at the end of the interview he wants to go to the funeral he wants to go to the funeral Christian I hope that you don't come with this whole story if you do then it would be very sad and don't believe that you think that I haven't seen the videos you are lying that there aren't these videos but these videos have been given and I have seen them Greg what do you got? watch him this time his face is flush this is the most red we've seen his face in the entire time as this interviewer is talking about how bad it must be watch him touch his face that's new too he's got all the ear marks of some reason that stress has started his respiration is up he's got short breaths and by that I don't mean their shallow breaths and Chase you always talk about breathing in your chest not your abdomen he touches his brow like the old stress headache medicines all show when a person is feeling stress headache so there's something going on and then we see disdain we see that pull back and Mark I think you're brilliant when you say contempt is for people disdain is for situations and then he makes that heart eye contact and then he sends this message this well prepared everything about it is on straight down the tube giving it everything everything about him is locked on this is why he came here this is what he came here to do and this is here is one of two things this is here to separate him from Bruckner or as a self defense mode because something else is going on I'll tell you what I think it is as we get to the end of these Scott what do you got I agree with you on all that he does the classic fist to face thing and so much so that he's got his thumb up on his ear way up here and push it on his face that's called facial denting or refer to as facial denting and that's an adapter he's trying to get rid of that built up stress and tension he needs something to do there and he's pushing so hard because he's thinking about this this is important you're right Greg this is where he's trying to get it apart get it across and he's playing on the empathy of the interviewer you know so I think he's trying to take attempting to take advantage of that in the situation you're right like you said his face is flushed and I think that adapter on his forehead I think he at the same time he's trying to recall something or paying attention to something he's saying as he structures what he's getting ready to say because he's got to watch his mouth there because this is it this is the home run or the scoring part where you're in darts when you hit a bull's eye or whatever he's got to hit that thing on this he's got to make sure it comes across clean but again at the same time he's trying to be contained that's why I've seen that that fist come up on the face and that thumb touch the ear so hard and he goes deep in there so he's thinking he's thinking there's a lot in there and he's still trying to be contained that you covered most of everything I got Chase what do you got? Yeah Greg I agree with you there's some withholding going on here some self-control breathing into the chest but let's give some points in his favor there's a positive and direct confrontation that he makes himself he's willing to call somebody else a liar or a perpetrator there's an increase in openness and vulnerability in a way that displays I think truthful and non-scripted or forced behavior there's an increase in openness and smoothness of non-verbal behavior there's an increase in revealing and subject focus language specific language so I think most of this is very truthful something's being hidden and coming up next I'm going to tell you precisely what I think which I don't do very often but I'll just tell you what I think is going on after this I don't know what these videos are 100% about but I have no doubt that they exist these videos they're talking about these tapes or at least existed at one time and it's incredible how wildly different cultures and languages this behavior looks when somebody's being deceptive versus telling mostly the truth no matter what language we're speaking the behavior no matter what culture or country has such a distinct difference that it shows that no matter what culture we all have these same roots we all come from the same place and the only thing he really scored low on the statement analysis codex is the limited use of sensory details but when we go to context I think I might argue that there's no specific questions being asked about events where details might become relevant like that so back to context in the translation error in this one he thinks he's not only capable but he believes that this guy is capable of fully doing everything and he says the things that the guy found found the children and took Maddie just because it was a accident it was something that was just circumstantial for him that happened in the moment Mark yeah so there's I think true emotion in the friends I don't have anymore I think that softening of the of the voice almost a kind of a fading fact there I think that's that's honest there's a double shoulder shrug with that on the word nay no so I think that's him being honest what's interesting then is this juxtaposition with the performance that he has down the camera for Bruckner of saying so there's prolonged, prolonged eye contact we haven't seen that with the interviewer I mean if anything is is an act this is an act this is well now's your moment to perform to the camera the message so why is this element such a performed message is this something he's been told to say why is he rehearsed this so well why this bit down the camera you know if the transcript that I've looked at is is accurate this spirit of what he's saying is don't think that I haven't seen stuff you think that I haven't seen stuff don't think that I've seen stuff well that's kind of interesting isn't it because that's a direct message to Bruckner and he's got to sell that part of it that all about I'll give you some ideas later on that I think that's all I've got on that one have we had everybody yeah thank you Greg okay man you wanted that bad that time Greg you're you're up in it man you're laser focused don't get me into that you're into it man one of those tape replays once again on your feeling to come back we're almost done I can't imagine how it feels the most important witness in one of the most famous criminals in the world to be how does it feel bad so I don't feel good I don't feel good that's what my health is that's what I'm looking for I've taken I've got my phases where I've been through I've got phases where I haven't slept so it's not a good feeling I think I don't want to change anything and always be like that on the flight that it's not right at home always take care of everything when you say something when you tell something yeah our friends family I don't have friends anymore I don't have friends anymore but friends are true friends I don't have friends anymore my last friend died in October and of course I wasn't allowed to go to the funeral so that's how sad my life looks at the end of the interview Helge B still has a reason he wants to get to the suspects Christian I hope that you don't just come with this whole story if you do and don't believe that you think that I haven't seen the videos you're lying that there aren't these videos but these videos have been given and I've seen them and you can't believe that that probably didn't know that was his background so he's losing all his friends I don't think we see behaviors of concealment that are beyond what I would expect I think we're seeing a good general level of honesty from him what do I think is happening here I think the authorities need to set him up as a credible witness and a credible witness without any evidence that they're going to be able to put in front of a jury which means he needs to go in front of a jury and go I saw images and here's what the images were and that the jury would go we don't need to see those in because they don't they're not he threw them away they're in a lake somewhere perhaps irretrievable but your testimony is credible enough testimony that we're putting a guy inside based on you saying that you saw images I think if anything is being concealed it may well be that gambit that's going on that's just my strange opinion Chase what do you think you're seeing so far I think there's a potential here that he might be involved in a little bit more than he's letting on here and I think he may know more than he's letting on here and I think those tapes might just be the beginning that they're referencing here if you want to find out what the tapes are you can look that up on the internet however if you would like a copy of this human made translation from a German with all of the errors kind of corrected and all the paraphrasing and stuff put in there in a really organized way I'll put a link down in the video description if you want to click on that you can download it right now kind of go back through and have a little deeper understanding of what's going on but overall he's honest but that doesn't mean a lack of concealment those are different things Greg I talk about a glass pane where a person is telling you what you need to hear for them to leave you alone there's some of that going on and I do think Scott you say he's making a deal I think the deal is bigger than that I think the deal is with the public who knew who this guy was before last week and suddenly now I'm a guy just random guy whose life has already gone to crap but I could move, I could move if in fact he has credible evidence that puts Madeline McCann in the hands of Christian Brogner and her being dead as a result of it if in fact that's the case the first time we hear this guy's name is that he had evidence about Madeline McCann for 20 years, 10 years and didn't let it out and that he's a friend of this guy so my opinion what he's doing here otherwise why would he get in front of the public Mark it has to be either yours or mine I think he came out and said let me separate myself from this guy and he has to protect how he got the information how he knows it there's no evidence that Madeline McCann is not alive credible evidence what is that credible evidence it's likely coming from him and the last thing he wants to do is to not have any control any control over the narrative while he's sitting in a court being asked questions and being able to say yes or no or yes or no and being torn apart by Cross so I think it's him up front coming out trying to rescue himself before this becomes the issue of this horrific crimes and the thing that's at front of mind for almost all people in the globe that's what I think Scott what do you think? I agree, yeah I think everything you guys have said it all wraps up into the into what's going on here I think it is part of the thing for the public I think it is part of the thing for the case coming up because he's a criminal this is not a good guy at all not even a little bit and he's got to come on like I'm giving up for you that's where the deal I'm talking about comes in he's got to make a deal with the cops first I think or the governor runs their thing so I think that's what's going that's what we're seeing here I think we've seen from the beginning to the end here him go through and that's what he's trying to do he's trying to show oh yeah of course I've done some bad things too because I saw these videos and did this and that I wouldn't be surprised if he was part of some of that just from where I'm from my approach or opinion because he's birds of a feather man he's hanging out with this guy but he just happens to see these videos and then I agree maybe it was because of the context of what was happening in the videos was dealing with a different type of person than the other videos we're dealing with and when he saw the ones that were dealing with the other type of person that's when he said I know this is going to end I don't think he's that good a guy they're not good people at all they're the worst so I don't think he has any hard felt feelings for any of the victims of this at all I think he's in it for himself and I don't think it's going to work because I think other people are going to be able to see what I'm seeing and what we're seeing in this and say oh I see what's happening here I think this is the last niche for him to try to dig himself out of this hole he's in because the cops know he was there I think that's what we're seeing here that's what it looks to me I feel like this is another good and we'll see you next time so what do you got?