 Mike check one, Mike check two, Mike check one two, Mike check one, Mike check two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check one two, Mike check That's your discretion. I'll play it with you the way I played it with Scott, which is pretty much he's he said jump But I said hi So we're whenever and wherever you want to do it. I'll make myself available. Okay. Yeah It's for pickup oh Shoot never mind never mind cancel it. See you next time. Bye. Bye It's about 25 degrees warmer than it was when I woke up this morning That's something yeah, I Opened the door to the postman and I close my front door again. Oh, is that right? Yeah, apparently the Little lip underneath. Yeah, risen. Yeah, I'd have called friend came over pounded on it And then the two of us together managed to get close That was not I know a lot of things happen in the cold weather Water lines popped up and froze and they get rotor-rooter in to get them take care of over the weekend I have friends in Craftsbury. They've been losing power power. You can figure out why. Oh, yeah Yeah, a lot of things happen. I'll tell you oh, yeah Well, whether can do it Yeah Dog park or against for you, too I Didn't get all the Petitions I wanted because it's been so cold and but it got quite a few and I just make my comments early and I'll leave Sorry, it wasn't more persuasive. I tried were you at that meeting soon? Majority decided to close the dog park This was ready for Thanksgiving, so there's no camera How could I have made my case better to delay the closing until we have you but you know This was I couldn't close my front door. Yeah, I'm sorry I missed that That was very exciting. I The threshold is an adjustable threshold If you see three what appear to be the top of screws or on the threshold Wow, what are you gonna do does that mean you can't get out that door. Yeah, well means I could get out that door I could not close it again afterwards How many other doors I just have a garage door which is what I use 95% of the time, but still it's not Yeah, it's scared hopefully when it warms up that will That's odd It would have caused it somehow The recycle out in the morning that it was hard to close Yeah Findings later. I apologize I'm gonna be running around town. I think I'll be there but like a gas torch Yeah, okay I mean if you hold it back No We do not You're here. Yes, you're here early Emily's driving out of Boston one day head to Salt Lake Well There We had a little scheduling snap I Got a schedule of some of the things here This makes it a little bit lower No, it's the same thing Yeah Yeah We can Silence That are you there? No, I'm I'm here I can hear you but Helen was just talking in the phone I Will you want to try it on another number or we'll just all speak up Okay, we hear you very well Okay Megan asks if you can watch on YouTube So our broadcast is broadcast live on YouTube Cctv Vermont and it'll pop up live But if you go to you does she have to go to YouTube first, yes Do you have a computer nearby Pat No Try to get to YouTube from your browser Okay YouTube and then go CCTV Vermont Okay I'd like to call the order the South Burlington City Council meeting of Tuesday, January 2nd We'll first start by saluting the flag top And let me start by noting that Pat Noak is joining this meeting by phone tonight and I want to also wish everyone a happy new year happy and healthy This council is all looking forward to a happy and healthier 2018 Our second item is instructions on exiting the building in case of emergency So we need to listen because we're upstairs today Yes, if there is a an emergency here in this room proceed out the door Back down the steps and out the front door and gather out in the parking lot to the south if that way is blocked Tom will open the door into the Staff room and we'll go out follow him out the back door and again around the back of the building and into the parking lot I will be responsible for making sure the building second floor is cleared Thank you Item three is the agenda review. Are there any? Additions deletions or changes in order of agenda items Pat, do you have any? No, I don't okay. Anyone else? I think we have to pull the minutes from the Okay, so we will pull the minutes of December 18 and we'll attend to them in the next at the next meeting Alrighty other than that everything stays and there's no change in order The fourth item is comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda We have two people would you please come up to the mic, please tell us your name Because loud as you can Envisioning a new library for our city our board was very happy when you approved the contract with the architectural firms Wyman Lamphere and Humphreys-Poly to create initial plans for consideration Humphreys-Poly has a broad range of library experience So we're excited to work with them And they're kicking off a series of public meetings in January, so I'm here tonight to invite the community To those meetings. We're hoping as many people as possible can be there They'll be held in the Green Mountain Room at City Hall at 7 p.m. On Thursday, January 18th and at 10 a.m On Saturday, January 20th There'll also be an opportunity to give input online and additional meetings will be held in March At these first meetings the architects are going to share trends and ideas with us And we'll have an opportunity to share ideas with them Most importantly, they want to learn what makes our city special and what's most important to us When I joined the board it was because I love books and I wanted to be a part of giving everyone access to them But I've learned that people who live in South Burlington also love resources for new citizens and people who are seeking employment They love musical performances and children's story times They love programs for seniors and knitting groups and craft programs and hiking advice and rooms for meetings So our library is a place for all of those things and more So we're just hoping to get everybody's input in terms of what they want to see in a new library So we hope everyone will come out in January to be a part of the process Right. Thank you. We will certainly post that all those dates. Yes with encouragement on the website, and I think We can probably post them to Yes, we'll do a social media campaign Our best Thank you so much I would know that was there today and there were a number of people meeting and checking out books And I ran into a friend who actually lived in Burlington But likes to go to our library because it's closer And she had shared that she was a little worried about Actually going to the mall to the library But has decided that the space is really beautiful and it works out very very well, so one person Who enjoys the library? I've heard many many more Margaret. We've had great feedback as well And many more Great, thank you My name is Bob Christopher from 339 Juniper Drive in South Burlington and my Quick discussion here tonight is on the closing of the dog bark Because of other commitments But one of the things that I wanted to say was it was a great idea to open this park And in our community alone at Corey Bridge where I live and also the president of the board of Directors there We have about 55 to 60 percent of our people that have dogs in that area and when they found out that it was open They were staggered about it. I also did some checking to that JC Park opened in the mid to late 60s. Okay Shepherd Lane opened around 1995 and Anybody building in that area knew of the process of what was behind there in terms of a park and what it would be From a day-to-day basketball picnics baseball football Little League, which I've attended many Throughout the last eight years So I also understand that it was just one person. I may be wrong. I don't know for sure That has made this complaint and it behooves me to see that, you know, just one person or two people if it is to Can override the majority of the people who'd like to see this park opened So My thought is that I've also talked to one lady who lives there on Shepherd Lane And and and she knew when she bought a few years ago. She knew what she was buying into with the park and everything behind there so I Just like to make it. I also have sent around of various petitions. I've got roughly about 75 names right now. I have not been able to Go around and collect all the rest of them because they just got out of work It's been a very hectic week and one of the other persons that has been working with me on this her husband died On Christmas Day, so she was unable to attend here today So I just wanted to make my point that I think it's a very good idea to open that park back up Maybe some guidelines and some rules need to be placed, but it is a very good community service Thank you In My home number is 264 9 6 3 6 6 2 6 3 6 3 6 I'm sorry, and it's Megan and Megan. I'm right. Yes, and I would be very happy to talk to you and your neighbors Okay, okay about the various ordinances that led to Unfortunately the closing and I think I'd be very happy to meet with you If it is the ordinances then those things should have been Taken up beforehand before it was even put in before another location could have been established I 100% agree. You know, I have my daughter's dog two or three times a week And it was so it was such a pleasure to take the dog up there and Walk it around and other dogs are in there and I quite honestly I never heard any parking and if it is it's got to be just a short period of time But there's got to be a heck of a lot more noise in that neighborhood If it is this one person who works there during the day So I think I'm more than glad to give you a call Megan and talk to you about it Bob I would just note also later in the agenda will be discussing the report Concerning the Wheeler property and and creating a easement of nature concerns the easement and some of the rules and regulations related to that that they're proposing one of it one of which Suggests that they don't believe a dog park is an appropriate use of that land and I think as we Work through the What to do with Wheeler Park and how to preserve that that's a conversation that Potentially some people in your neighborhood as well as yourself might want to weigh in And now where is this Wheeler Park again? The Wheeler Park is right next to the Veterans Memorial Park And Karen's arena Mostly in a natural state, and then there's the Wheeler house that's used for various other things and we're Considering about how to really retain that property in that area as a Conserved in perpetuity and I noted in their report that one of the I guess suggestions That they had this group had come up with is to not allow a dog park there So I think as we discuss other alternatives for dog parks going into the future We need to have public input On that and it sounds as if you and a number of people I know it's not adjacent to your property So it would require getting into a car, but If you have lots of people with dogs that want a dog park we really need to have a More robust conversation about that in the future, so I would encourage you to sort of get in the back of your mind Well, what a maiden made it so nice was you can just walk out there I know with people in Cory Ridge summer woods and all the surrounding areas So it it it made a nice walk up there to yes, this is true This would be a longer walk and I'm familiar with the ones that you got to get in the car My brother has one down in West Palm Beach where he's got to get in the car And it's a huge place and it's beautiful, but you know the convenience was beautiful I recognize that I but but I would like some more and I'll be in touch with you Megan and we can go from there Feel free to call any of us where our phone numbers are on the website, right? Okay, sure. I'd like to stay for the rest of the meeting, but I have to pick up some grandkids and Okay, thank you very much. Thank you. I'm an interest Thank you No other comments and questions from the public then we'll go move on to item five Announcements and the city managers report Tim do you have any announcements? Sure? Work with Tom and we administered the luncheons at the library Pat couldn't make it so Kind of a last-day switch. I thought it was Thursday, but turn of the Wednesday So it was really nice. So we were in the library with three employees with a lot of lasagna They could take a lot of letters, and then we came here and we sat in this room had a very nice lunch Thank you very much We're just waiting for the bill from somebody And thank you Pat for organizing I think Tom Hubbard was supposed to have gotten the bill from the folks and Who have held it for me? I had gotten the lunches about it. Unfortunately that day I couldn't make it and we actually come I don't know how we did it, but we The four counselors had Thursday down and I was glad you mentioned to me it was Wednesday The date adjusted, but I understand everything With the distribution of that Pat, do you have any other announcements to make? No, not happy new year. Okay. Thank you Megan. I just wanted to say that I had really I think a rare pleasure to have my husband home all week long and I Wanted to really extend our thanks to the emergency personnel that didn't have that time off all those holidays, and I Heard several sirens. I actually picked my son up And that took a highway to get him and the first Friday when the snow was falling and I was grateful to have the Warnings that came that Doug chief Brent had sent out and know to be careful and be glad I had snow tires But many many cars were in the ditch and many emergency personnel were on the highway And so I just want to extend I think all of our thanks to that for sure. Thank you Nothing to report, but I would echo that same gratitude The other paper and it's really important for all of us to appreciate the Police force and firefighters and Emergency emergency personnel and people who work in the hospital who serve In spite of it being a holiday, right? Let's knock on wood for the water maids Yes, and I I also thought that your Comments to keep a watch on neighbors, especially with this cold snap that we've been having I thought that was a really nice comment To yeah All right, I don't have anything to report Just a couple things first of all on behalf of all our staff here city hall and the library Thank you all Pat. Thank you for leading this effort council members. Thank you for supporting it. I don't know of another community Certainly that where I have contacts with managers and all that where the counselors like board does this sort of thing for their for their city team, so It is recognized by our staff. It's appreciated by our staff the food was good was good And we really truly do thank you for that. It's a wonderful gesture and and I know it comes with all appropriate Thank you Margaret and was in talking about the library hearing public hearing and stakeholders meetings and so on you have a copy of Part of those meetings There are actually more than that That will be planned out by the master list At the next meeting of the council Assuming Helen approves Alana will be in to Review all on where we stand in the process that relates to library City Hall the new one With the contractors with engaging the public and so on so she'll be here to answer any questions You have about the schedule going forward. We want to engage the council early and often on this And keep you up to speed on what I'm with the process We have a legislative lunch or a lunch scheduled for our legislative delegation For the 8th next Monday or excuse me next Tuesday The 8th is Monday. Oh, it is Monday. Yeah, cuz they'll be back So it is the 8th. Although. Yeah, it's Monday at 12 p.m. here at City Hall and I know that our house delegation has all been Contacted I think David's reaching out to the Senate delegation. So this will be our opportunity to talk to them about Legislative issues as they go into the second year that by any As you know, you have budget meeting 6 30 Thursday Downstairs in the main conference room. All managers are lined up and will be in to give their presentations and take questions and then lastly The mental health community outreach program continues to garner a lot of interest from the media and from the public Howard mental health has received almost 20 applications for the four positions. They're seeking to fill and they have begun interviews and so Moving on to the next phases which will include a grant application that I'm working on to UVM Medical Center And then engaging in some of the interviews will be managers police chiefs ambulance chiefs in those interviews and Howard is also working on an MOU that really lays out how the program is going to work on a detailed basis So we had set an ambitious goal of trying to to have people on board by the end of this month I think we may we may meet that goal I'm very pleased with the response. I think it's it's Not being a mental health professional myself I can only imagine that would be an exciting opportunity for somebody to be right on the field with police and ambulance Supporting those activities together, so I think we're going to have a great candidate That's great because there certainly isn't any Overabundance of mental health workers, but to generate that kind of Yeah, oh And I've got to mention before the holidays Kevin and I did meet with our legislators to discuss a legislative bill around governance and some alternative things and we We're moving forward with that and they are Soliciting Support from other area legislators What? Well one was the Regionalization the study. I mean these are just what we have as a Council have encouraged the regionalization study to look at that and the other one is Which? Of the airport. Oh, okay. Yeah, I'm sorry and then the other piece was the the issue of Deferring to the Legislative bodies of Winoski and South Burlington on matters associated with the With the NCP update right and that that is a little trickier because that requires a charter changes But those are the two areas that they we had talked about there was a third one that really would lay out What regionalization was would look at and we opted to sort of hold back on that and not Define it, but rather have the legislature if they're interested in pursuing that do the defining So that seems to have at least some legs to stand on from this community and I'm assuming Winoski Their mayor was very positive and said he would encourage His two legislators to sign on So that's kind of moving forward and will be introduced early, I believe Okay Item six the consent agenda Without the minutes without the minutes So I would entertain a motion to approve the consent agenda that includes sign disbursement Approval of the Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission unified planning work program project requests Consent to administrative amendment to act 250 land use permit 4C 0503 pertaining to city center and Fourthly the land exchange agreement with Barrett Park LLC and the city center Park Parcel so moved your second I Will second it, but I just wanted to ask one or two questions a little bit of discussion about that that CCRPC Unified work plan about some of the elements of that real short. I can wait till later. We can do it now Paul is not here right and call him. Well, no, I mean maybe just it's just a question Can you take it to him tomorrow? And you know, I mean it's a very simple thing, okay? Asked a question. Well, yeah, so the question was I mean made a towns and approached me I think at the SBBA meeting at the National Guard building about the lack of pedestrian, you know flashing crosswalks on Heinsberg Road, you know between Proudie Parkway and St. John Viettae now St. John Viettae has a crosswalk But they don't have flashers So it's really hard. There's only a sidewalk on the left side if you're going north All right, which what's possibly north so I'm gonna Sorry, but I don't think that that rises to the level of the UWP. It doesn't okay Well, it doesn't mean it can't be done Right Put that out there that because there were Objections to it because there's no landing spot for somebody who crosses from the sidewalk side over to the other side because there's you know Unless it was at an intersection with the street and they had some I don't know but there are definitely places. We need crosswalks I mean and and We need to do something in order to be able to place them We are without a sidewalk on the other side, you know to get people across whether they're bikes or people Anyway, that's so second Okay We extended that time because I knew people would have questions Okay, so raise it then that would Any further discussion, okay all in favor of approval of the consent agenda say aye Okay, thank you. We'll move on to that's approved Item seven council's reports from committee assignments Pat was there were you attending any airport commission meetings? No, I haven't had any Okay, but can you read our lips? All right, are there any other channel 17 didn't have a meeting Party but not a meeting Okay Item 8 then public. Oh we early we're early. So let's move on then to item Be able to do your work plan, okay, let's move to Item 11 Review of the council work plan to hear that Pat item 11 work plan We have 15 minutes Okay, so Kevin so Here's an updated version of your 2017-2018 work plan Please make reference to the codes along the left column You'll see that Many of the items have been Completed although I point out that most of that around budget and all is pretty well laid out in a schedule We have some areas that are ongoing Like the monthly financial department reports them the narratives and so on There are areas that have been deferred most notably on the For the some city center projects and some of the Ordinance new ordinances Andrew is bringing you a series of updates to existing ordinances and when those are Reasonably complete we hope to hop on to the new proposed ordinances and bring that up to speed So beyond that I take any questions Are there any questions Pat did you have any Anyone else Megan you're on the paper I guess on the last page the more meetings outside of City Hall I have this is just a comment and then I have a question the comment is I believe our charter states in the schools and I know that we've had acoustical Challenges at Chamberlain. I just wanted to make note of that and I think that charter Encourages yes, okay Requires okay that being said Tom and I've talked a lot about this it it seems like virtually every time we go someplace. There's some Audio visual Problem, yeah, but it's it's it's your meeting and we'll do what? Well, I don't think that we should have meetings in places where the public cannot hear So I just thought I'd you know, I was curious about that the other thing Let me get to the city center It was my recommendation on the third page Other council priorities for city center, so it's line 82 Develop incentives for business to locate in city center and that was specifically small business local business and I know that we all received an email from one local business owner Frustrated feeling kind of pinched also financially and I I really think that We need to Look under, you know every bush check every nook and cranny and and really check with regard to the TIF financing Regulations Whether or not and this was just something that I saw that happened in Illinois With their TIF districts and I realized that every state passes a different set of regulations But in Illinois you can get small business grants. You can use TIF funding to offer small business grants That's just one tool We have on Marcus Street created You know development regulations requiring that the first floor be commercial and There is concern that we will not be able to Fill those spaces that the market just is saturated and and I really want to Keep this council mindful of our timeline and if we cannot Really drum up those business Tenants then perhaps a change to the code should be considered. I also want us to Really focus on making city center a Place where our small and local businesses, so I'm coming back to my my original thing here, but a Place where small local businesses can be located be anchors And can thrive I think that it is Part of our identity I think our local businesses present the best of our values because they They organically come out of who we are and I think that they are valued and and that the public Would I think their Their identification with the city and perhaps the city center would be diminished if we were to lose those local small businesses that we have whether it be, you know as Freestanding building or in bloom wall or in the small dog place there are lots of Pressures on a market where there's going to be development for prices rather it be rents You know whether it be the taxes then to really increase and that can out price You know the small guys And I think that that would be a loss and I don't know if the TIF regulations would allow for the TIF funding to allow for small grants as they allow in Illinois I would like us to check that into that. I would like this this council to consider It you know just the pressures that will be increasing on the local businesses and we fortunately have an Is that you know in this in this room or you know before this body? And I know that small business owners themselves have raised it And I think we should really listen and consider carefully those concerns Do you know if the South Burlington Business Association has? Considered this or is interested or might be a partner in doing some of the research or When I would think of all the organizations, they would be most interested in maintaining local businesses to remain viable and hopefully Support city center. I can only imagine that they would be and I'll reach out and find out if they'd like to engage on the subject So maybe we could have a council discussion with them or ask them or or go to the count their executive community and discuss this and Get some steps going because I think they would respond to that and I very much agree with The concerns that that Megan has raised that that is really important to our Community Tim I I understand what you're trying to say, but I guess the question is you were asking if If there was the possible using Tiff funds to create small business Well, we have that first floor requirement on Market Street Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have all chains just pop up in there. Yeah, but that we actually had local Right, you know people saying I'm ready to take this on right, but I'm just the Tiff regulations are pretty stiff Right about what the money can be used for other than the fact that if it's if it's like a municipal Funded building right then there might be room within that to do something right, but for all the private buildings I mean we don't have any planning or zoning regulations or form-based codes that dictate what those businesses could be right My fear is that the rents in the new construction would be higher than they would be in the older construction If you go down Pine Street like classically Pine Street a long time ago was just kind of a dingy part of town Right until the artists took over all the lofts down Howard Street, right now The place is just blown up right because it's been recycled which is one of the nice things about it And now people there are complaining about their they feel threatened that their rents might be going So there's a market force that that's in play here And the question is sometimes how can you try and make the playing feel a little bit more level? For the newcomers that don't have the financial clout that let's say You're not saying that Starbucks, but a company like Starbucks would have or another major franchise, you know I mean as I understand that you know you if we're going to create a couple of floors Maybe the first floor only of retail all day way down Market Street, right? Yeah, I mean well, I mean I mean it's franchise like right, you know I mean then you sort of end up with that, you know Promenade of a bunch of storefronts that look like everywhere else because it's the same store as everywhere else So I know that I think that's going to happen because you know, there's kind of an abundance of retail space right now So the question is how do you so that we don't have any so there's my feeling is there's a there's a there's an abundance of Commercial space maybe not in the best location. The question is what type of businesses are you talking about? Are they businesses or they retail type businesses? If they're not retail. Is there enough? Generator maker type space not those exactly things right in South Burlington that sort of could compete with with other areas that You'd give somebody a solid footing at least financially for at least a year or something And I will reiterate Beth Pierce's invitation To come here She'll bring the coffee in the doughnuts to sit down with us and to really show us the state's toolbox And so maybe they could do that with SBDA Beth Pierce the treasure She did You're there well, that's right. I think the combination of thinking and Even just identifying what the needs of the South Burlington Business Association Members or future members as they expand to contract would be a helpful Conversation to get us to yeah, I'll reach out to them see if we can get them in And we are going to see a large recycling of retail environments in this city over the next 15 years Like you've never seen before I mean you just walk down Bank Street now. They've pretty much hollowed out the entire Burlington Town Center It's gone. It's a bunch of scrap metal getting ready to be take some taking somewhere in recycled. So You know, that's the tip of the iceberg right there That's our local options tax the sales tax way low. I mean it's people are buying online Right, they are but that's the challenge for retails to figure out a way to bring them back Right bring people back in and you have to do it with things interest them to make them want to go there These things come in you know, the pendulum swings one way it swings the other way Right, so if retail figures out a way to attract people back in they might actually end up going oh, then I can buy this and do that You know, I mean there's something that to be said for like just having packages arrive at your house after a while It gets kind of boring And Amazon doesn't charge half the tax they're supposed to So if you get them in the stores, we know we've got the tax I actually have a couple questions, but it's 715 so we'll come back to this and Move on to our public hearing the ordinance codification project And In your packets kind of this is this is the second reading now of our I guess the second batch this end of the year and there are three that are related to Special assessments and one that's a proposed amendment to our Smoking in places of public access and I provided some It kind of motions and a bit of a script for for the process for the for a second reading Okay, so I move that in lieu of reading the proposed ordinances warned for the public hearing tonight the council read them by title only Question all in favor signify by saying aye aye and I also move And I also move the council commence a public hearing on the four ordinances duly warned for tonight's meeting and at this time So the first ordinance is the ordinance prohibiting smoking in places of public access The proposed amendments that are provided and were provided Based on the ad and the other paper in the city clerk's office and online Will update this ordinance to remain consistent with the new standard form of the ordinance codification project project in the city's new form And continue to mirror mirror the state statutes related to use of tobacco and tobacco substitutes in public places So that is the first one the second one is the ordinance relating to the procedure for levying special assessments this one was adopted in 1962 and the repealing of this ordinance will have little to no effect as I talked about in the last meeting As the city now it uses the authority outlined in state statute, which sort of supersedes this one And we've been using that in the authority in 24 VSA chapter 87 as our authority to love levy special assessments the third one is related to the to the second Which was an ordinance regulating the construction of sidewalk and storm drain on white street between Wilson Road and Parkway establishing a local improvement district and levying special tap Assessments according to benefits conferred on the property and said district. This was adopted in 1962 and repealed this ordinance should have no effect as all remaining debts Are there are no outstanding debts at this point? And then the fourth one is an ordinance regulating the construction of sidewalk and storm drain on Dorset Street between the north boundary line On the municipal lot and the south side of Wilson Road This one was adopted in 63 and similarly has no outstanding deaths at this time I Comment or questions the only comment I have with regard to the smoking ordinance is I sometimes look at our ordinances and I guess it just it will require a two-step process when I'll have to go to look at Vermont statutes in order to know The definitions and things are these long definitions or just that They're relatively short ones, but I think it makes sense just for example with attempt tobacco substitutes things get added that the state recognizes Kind of helps us stay up-to-date with our ordinance rather than coming back and updating I Entertain emotions the public oh does the public have public hearing, but we don't really have Yeah, I just thought give a chance cuz you thank you Last call okay So I would entertain a motion that we close the public hearing. I move that the council closed the public hearing Any discussion all in favor I Lastly we have a motion Sure sure you do great, I move that the council repeal the ordinance relating to procedure for living special assessments Ordinance regulating the construction of sidewalk and storm drain on white street between Wilson Road Airport Parkway establishing a local improvement District and living special assessments according to benefits conferred upon the property in the said district and Ordinance regulating the construction of sidewalk and storm drain on Dorsey Street between north boundary line of the municipal lot and Williston Road and amend the ordinance prohibiting smoking in places of public access effective upon this date Seconded discussion All in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. All right, so thank you very much Moving back to our Agenda do you want to complete the Is that all right? Yeah, I was just curious we had I thought we had discussed And maybe this is just Kind of efficiencies Process and kind of related to that I'm curious about We'd also embraced a desire that we can really continue to Move forward on energy efficiencies that are more Perhaps more focused on who's making sure they turn off the light not a are we putting in a new solar array or buying Light bulbs that are more efficient, but sort of those harder things to Grab on to that that reduce energy consumption, you know turning off computers and printers and those kinds of things And I just I'm curious where we are with both the lean process, which I think lends itself to embedding in the workflow How you can become more Energy efficient as a unit And in a city government as well as you know other Well, we we decided early on that the first the first Subject area that we would tackle would be payroll and benefits and we're deep into that right now And so Some of that has been bringing more personnel to the table and and splitting up Job descriptions a little bit Coralie is on point with all that It turned out to be a much bigger project than we'd anticipated We've had the payroll company Send a technical advisor up here for a day-long meeting with us In the hopes that we could try to simplify our payroll system, which is enormously complex We're still focused on that. Okay, and it's been It's really been a six-month ongoing project and involves the department heads Tom has taken a lead role in it and Coralie and So we are moving forward on that and I think that that's going to pay big dividends It's just not reflected in the work plan, is it? Well, it is. I mean Under a miscellaneous I should have put an That's for the energy efficiency, you know We did do the electrical upgrades at doors at Park But I'm just and still working with the Commons energy on The continuation of their engagement with us to improve the efficiency in city buildings Maybe you can Okay, all right. I just want to keep that Yeah, and everyone's mind because it's important to me It's important I think to the energy committee and I think it has could pay real dividends to the city to reduce our Electrical you think Justin's gonna talk about some of the investments we're making in buildings infrastructure You're perhaps talking about a cultural. I am. Yeah, it is much more embedded in and You know that just the process within your processes within your various offices Which I think really has some substance to it in terms of efficiencies should develop a course at the middle school and high school Teenagers I have one thing on the work plan that could segue into Justin's comments So on the fourth page or item line row 129 Consolidation consolidate a collection of trash. I just I've had email exchange Rob Green of Burlington Department of Public Works just to get an idea of how they're handling things and I've also been I've met with Sarah Reeves about Two times as well as Paul Stabler. I don't see any reason to push this this year This coming legislative term I've every reason to believe from Sarah's very informed perspective that they're gonna be making some tweaks to 148 and so she said it'd be best to have these conversations to as Different municipalities in the area interested in learning more about this this summer after 148 shakes out a little this term So whatever that's worth on that item could be pushed off But maybe if Justin has some thoughts on that I know he expressed interest on consolidated trash collection in previous meetings Okay, great any other questions, I thought She's got a lot of job duties. She does I mean, I just I see her name a lot here and the Andrews too And I just wanted to check in and the websites and Everold has been expanded. Yeah, so she came. Yeah More broadly public engagement, but also the lean process and sustainability issues, right? And these aren't just small major projects and Human resource right and human resources is I Just she's able to is this job for one person? Well, I I think she'd be the first person to say she's not doing any of this by herself But she is And Reporting to Tom Almost hourly I think your offices are closed. I think it's a good caution That we have to be mindful that we don't push too much off on her Because she does have a broad spectrum of responsibility. So it's a good cause I Think on the plus side though it also I'm sure makes her Job more interesting to her and she is acquiring some additional skills Which is kind of job growth and promotion, which is I? Think important in a workplace. She has a great capability I would say too But it is a good, but I agree and then I guess my final question are you as the Chief administrator finding this a helpful process. Yeah, I am okay. I look at it before your meetings To see what you know the The schedule moves around a little bit, but it kind of keeps us on task You know, there's some things that you just can't anticipate the whole mental health Initiative that was launched came after You know, we were well into the work plan so But sometimes you just adapt to that good a pat. Do you have any questions or did I already ask you? No, I'm fine. Okay All right, so if there's no more discussion there will move back to item 9 a Presentation and various public work issues by our department director Justin Rabbit Welcome any evening Justin Rabbit the director of public works Apologize for missing the last council meeting at the last minute for the same reason I Think there's a bunch of things you guys want to talk about but I'll just maybe continue and or finish up on some of the points that were just raised Certainly from an asset management perspective the notion of a single hauler in any one geographic region for trash recycling Is exciting to someone like me the less trucks going down the road the longer the road lasts it's pretty simple but as a former board member on the Salt Waste District and I was on the board the last time they waited deep into these waters and it's Very involved discussion Public sector moving in taking over private business or Or rearranging the way that private business and the free market runs The boogeyman has always raised about the spectrum what about the little guy and it's it's always the big guys that raise that but You know the side of the mouth They're just waiting to buy the little guy out and then the little guy is ready to sell so Well, they're a little disingenuous on some of the issues they raise Which I think we might you know downstairs for example Some of the same things might happen in DRV People aren't really saying what But really the fear is about government's involvement in the private sector. It's worked out where there's no reason it can't work here In past the board the Salt Waste District Board of Commissioners has recommended Implementation or further starting steps, but that was also a time in the boards and the district's history where they were dealing with Bigger litigation issues relative to the proposed landfill in Williston And they were going at it with both Williston and the landowner Heinsberg Sandengrabber Richmond Sandengrabble. Heinsberg Sandengrabble So they just you know, they could only take on so many big fights at once this one got backburner But the will I think it's starting to starting to return as people really Realize why is why are seven haulers going down my street every week? so I to me is pretty straightforward and Certainly from a technical perspective. We would certainly endorse it. There's issues You know certainly at well outside of our control in our specific areas of concern, but in general, we're very supportive of it We talked about energy efficiency and some of the projects some of the things you had mentioned Helen Behavioral I think what the industry is finding out is we all aren't really that great about that stuff So stuff turns off automatically now, you know printers It's always maddening when I go and I'm like the guy yelling at the microwave cook faster You know when I hit print and the the printer has to wake up because it you know it turns itself asleep after every 10 minutes You look around city hall. There's motion detectors everywhere. So most of that stuff's Slowly because from a policy perspective and never really worked. It's really tough to police individuals behaviors Even the most well-intentioned folks forget to turn their lights off and leave their computers on printers But the way Al Reed our director of IT the way that he's brought the stuff on it's It's really helping us out and doing that for itself Paul Conner myself and Tom Hubbard met with a manager member of the energy committee Before the hot dog comments but before the holidays To talk about what we could be doing with our next round of efficiency upgrades We've done a lot. We've done really really big like solar Airport Parkway wastewater expansion. There's also been really small like lights and that type of stuff There's a lot of projects kind of in the middle That we think you and curse we still have a budget cycle and voter approval process to go through so We're not working on any of this actively, but these are the thoughts we have in place There's a lot of opportunities to perhaps leverage the money coming to us through both existing line items And perhaps some of the landfill solar rebate monies at the city receive to Take some portions of those monies and tackle larger projects kind of at once 80% of the city street lights are leased through remount power The remaining 20 we own 20% of our street lights is still a lot of electricity And so a nice project would be to convert all those to LED The GM for the most part the GMP owned fixtures have been switched There's a tariff in place with the public utilities commission They now charge a lower rent rate basically to folks like us that rent or lease lights We have some really good ideas of mind of projects we can tackle You know, you know, just after I think after the first Tuesday and March were really be ready to talk about more specifics But it's certainly that's how we see the next evolution of these projects Going forward. We're kind of not that we're done with doing light bulbs, but we're ready to take on bigger Things more bang for the buck just a real quick example The this intersection civilized intersection just behind us at Dorset and Kennedy Sometime in the last year. We switched those from incandescent bulbs to LEDs It uses like 8% of the energy We're going to be a pain like $600 a month. We're paying I don't know 45 or 50 bucks a month now electricity Obviously, it's a busy intersection. There's 40 something signal heads with all the bulbs but it's a good example of That that was just 40 something lights and we're saving $100 a month We own hundreds of street lights still so there's a lot of money on the table But it does require that initial investment and those are the types of projects we're interested in tackling Talk about the line kill bridge example if you would just because that has a defined payback. Yes, so We partnered with a town called Chester. We could you know, we both own to the middle of the bridge and local distributor who had access to a rebate for LED lights And I'm going to admit I'm probably getting my ROI is confused and all these various efficiency projects For example, we just swapped out the lights in our maintenance bay It's like it was an 11 month return on that investment, which is you know, less than a year spectacular Well over online kill bridge. I think I think it was something like a two-year return on investment In terms of reduce energy cost just by switching so we do a lot of this stuff a lot of those what I would call kind of smaller You know for the $12,000 projects probably And probably not letting you know about every little one of them But there's a lot of those going on the background in addition to some bigger efforts Great, and it sounds as if you're working with the energy committee. Yeah, they have offered to play a pretty active role In just helping move some of this forward Well, I'm certainly interested in Continuing to hear about how we reinvest the Payments we make we get rather from the solar array And how we can you know turn that into additional savings And I don't know how hard it is. I mean, I would think the public would be interested as well to aggregate those annual savings in a way that shows that we're really Making incremental even if they're small But just to learn that we're saving a hundred bucks a month on one intersection is Is wonderful to hear yeah recent Magazine article Corley did I did provide her information. I know she had a nice little one page With graphics on a handful of projects, but I think you're right a real good look back at maybe the last five years Yeah, those efforts really would back because it truly is it spending money to save money and it just reason more money to spend more money to save more money until you Solve every last problem in this regard Is there a spreadsheet that breaks out every? Every meter that the city has you know devices on and it's monthly usage and whether access to our account for remount power We don't actively kind of maintain and dashboard it if you will on the back end So so like there's a meter for every intersection probably, right? Yes, okay And you know whether intersections or LED or not or we have a master We we have a another spreadsheet in which we were tackled that but out for example The energy committee has dove into the city's utility bills It's really it's a lot of it. It's a lot of doubt But it's really easy to get access to whether it's GMP or my gas to get access to that now That's the first thing is to find the data and I know the efficiency committee or the energy committee is really good at that Well, I think creating a dashboard for the public would be really helpful, especially around budget time The LED ometer Oh Contracting bulk buying of line and striping we could actually save money. Are we are we subcontracting out any of our line striping in the city? Or we do so So to freshen up the streets the fog lines and the lights for pedestrian safety Are we currently doing all that ourselves or okay? So we do subcontract it out Is it cheaper when we subcontract it out than when we do it ourselves? The only expense we're practically incurring from a ledger perspective is the purchasing of the materials The labor system costs. I'm paying you to do it I'm paying you for your time and the materials and the markup on the materials on the profit So it's certainly much cheaper to do that That's why reason but somebody was saying you would inform them that it would be cheaper if we started hiring more Subcontractors in the springtime. I believe that could be Conflation of terms a telephone game. I had many discussions along these lines. The general message is if we buy in bulk We're gonna get a much better per linear foot price from a contracting standpoint, which stands to reason sure And then the bike and pet committee has been asking for support for bike and pet grant writing Not necessarily an entire E but a small amount of money Could you talk about how you could see that helping in your efforts or how could that materialize if there was more money in the budget to support the completion and Organization and coordination of bike and pet grants Those grants are all great. They all carry Generally a 20% match. So we have a need in a fusion of capital If we if we have the resources to do more projects and spend more money We need the capital to spend my understanding of the present CIP. Is that money is not in there today or tomorrow? To the grant writing would do anything for you if we didn't have the matching capital to actually it would get what it Well, it would it would create more shovel ready projects so to speak and then if and when and it happens I don't know every 12 to 24 months Our friends from Washington will come around asking looking for projects. So theoretically it It would pretty would prepare us well for a yet to be identified future funding opportunity but that it's been I don't know it's been a year or two and Generally in my line of work There's a lot of talk at the national level of a stimulus package. It's yet to be implemented So that that needs to happen first and then they can go out and find the projects But if it were to happen Some months later they would the delegations wrote our federal donations really good about getting in touch with You know the bigger communities and saying what do you have for projects? So I guess in the theoretical yeah, it may help us if Money presents itself or if or if more money were infused into the budget To actually do the projects Right the application So do I understand you then that there are some projects in the budget for bike and pet? Yes and so grant writing to There aren't grants available to help support what's already in the budget We have ten years worth of like pet projects in the CIP. Yeah, they are spaced and timed out For a couple reasons one is what's practical and what's possible in terms of delivering back to the quarterly discussion Secondly and perhaps more importantly When is money available for them? So if we suddenly had a bunch of projects that were ready to go in years one through three But the money is programmed Out through year ten nobody's not there until years for you know So you would you would create a situation in which you had a bunch of projects, but not the capital to build them You had a bunch of project ready Because you still need that match. Do we have ten years of shovel ready projects? Well, I mean we have a ten year CIP Which carries with a project development schedule for a variety of things including bicycle investing projects And those are all fake. Those are all kind of phased out through kind of design Year one and two permitting three hopefully construction four or five So you approve the UPWP tonight. Yeah, that has a role in this That's you that's generally the scene where you think it's all of this stuff going UPWP Here's been raised that maybe we could get more done with regards to the requests of the bike and ped and pedestrian safety concerns The four hot spots if we weren't fuzz focused on grant writing and instead just Did smaller segments with available capacity and bit off some more chunks at a time Is that something we've done in the past or is that something we're thinking about doing going forward? for example on the Dorset Street stretch or the Allen Road stretch as I know we don't have idle resources, but as they come online Are you from your management of your available capacity? Do you do small segments break up the ground lay the gravel with the underlayment down so that it could be ready? Or at least it's build out the shoulder a little bit more Or do you really like to have everything lined up to do it from soup to nuts the entire project? Did that question make any sense? I think I think what the bigger issue is What's the valve? What's the value of the city's self-performing work? We can we can build sidewalk and to your question. Yes, we can go side walk The more time we and the more time we see the more time we spend self-performing Which again back to the near you striking discussion saves the city money because the sun can expenses The less time we're doing X For example last spring with we are public works that a lot of projects up and around the park the various parks in the city We spent four or five weeks doing those we didn't do anything else really for four or five other weeks So for example San Remo Drive all that nice the nice do the nice sidewalk around San Remo and all street lights We did all that work But we didn't do anything else for two or three months so it's What's the fine line between the value of us doing that versus not doing Sewerline cleaning street sweeping Park mowing maintained by etc. Etc. Yeah, so we take on a few projects a year Cross-sectors whether it's stormwater highway or sewer, but we're mindful of not trying to play contractor too much Because then we can't provide our most basic services, which maintenance silly things like filling up hot holes and Changing of burnt out light bulbs, which we have eight to ten a week You know, so yes, we can we certainly can Decision was made to focus on a instead of B. You know it comes at the expense of B, and we have to just be eyes wide open about that It's a really good point because I mean we have a lot of traffic goes through the city, right? And so there are things that you do that are visible and there are things you do that are invisible I mean not really invisible if you're taking a walk through a park You might see a stormwater improvement, right? But you might not live know unless you live there and new to walk through that park And no one's ever called us and asked us to clean sewer lines until it's too late Yeah, no one ever fakes us for clean, but that's the type. I mean honestly, that's the type of paving potholes sewer line plowing That's that's our core You're a laborer right so that that begs the I'm sorry did you that begs the question It's like so so how how are the priorities can you know set for public works? I mean obviously they have to take care of the things that keep the pipes running right it keeps the rosary But and then I don't know how you're configured for you know manpower right now people power in terms of a number of Whether you're low on headcount or or just where you should be we're fully staffed As of literally as of today today, we had a new employee start today to end at about a in any type of orb chart hierarchy where you have chiefs captains lieberman And someone up top leaves you end up having to do five or six So it that takes like in our case we already just got done five months of doing just that so for the first time in a long time We're fully staffed so that provides us in the summer roughly two full construction crews And whether they're like we self-performed for a paving contract we do all the We do a majority of the preparatory utility work Again, no one think I've ever even discussed this with you We raise and lower and adjust the elevation of things like manholes and catch basins To match the new elevation of where the pavement is going to be that saves us in there between $1,500 to $2,000 a structure by us doing that work So we spend a bunch of weeks doing that and then we might have another crew doing some sidewalk work or a park project the park guys are generally Maintaining a heck it as you saw this last summer while the rain that's eventually it's all we can do to keep up with the growing grass so yeah, we have you know, we have crews and We generally in the summer will run two full kind of four or five person construction crews out doing separate and distinct things When it comes time to discussing would it be beneficial for us to do sectional sidewalk on Dorset Street or Allen Road I always let Kevin know what it's at the expense of And we've had this we've had these discussions within the last year about projects that we've been asked to do and we say Sure, however, it means the following and it gets discussed and decisions are made But we're not not doing these things because there's we're waiting for grants with there's something easy that we can get done We are we're going forward and doing it Well depends on how you define what is easy to do. I think I think I think Justin Does a great job as he's just a balancing that I mean where we can get something done The team gets it done If it's if it's something reasonably Lower in time consumption, but generally speaking his team kind of plots these things out well into the future I mean, you know what they're gonna do this spring. They know when they're gonna pave They know when they're gonna do work in our parks The good news about these UPWP sidewalk grants that we're investigating is we're now fully identifying and reviewing long segments of roadway and What improvements from the little to the big can be made so we're just now identifying some of those and where I don't want us out Doing two miles of sidewalks. That's too much of our time doing that But we've been we've identified a bunch some of those little projects that might make sense for us to do Yeah, I think you've directly indirectly Megan, yeah, I I really like What was in the CCIPC plan this number three priority that our planning Commission Prioritized land value of development return on investment This project would involve an analysis of the city's existing development to examine where the city's strongest performing value per acres Type of a development exist to initiate a broader discussion about future development Capital investments in the long-term impacts of public infrastructure. I think that's a really important planning tool for the city to have for you to have your eyes on to be able to really advise this body, but staff as well as to What the future Development would ideally look like with regard to what resources we have at our disposal and specifically the manpower right and So with regard to that another I think tool that I would like to ask you if we have at our disposal is Whether or not we can combine efforts just like we have with the municipal union district With other communities with regard to bike lanes. So for instance the bridge the bike lane going over i-e-d9, right? Clearly, it's not only South Wellington residents who would use that bridge and I Understand that there's a local match and so what I you know suggested and the message got through to Paul is that There are people traveling from Williston. There are UVM students Perhaps there are people from Burlington perhaps it's something that the GBIC or the Lake Champlain Chamber of Commerce should really invest in because we are looking to do a holistic kind of investment in terms of our economy and our priorities and So when we look at grant writing versus we got the manpower and the tools. Let's just do it. Is there a way For us To look at what we have in terms of our strategy where that development should go when why it should go there and Also, what other communities can pool their resources with us who among us can write the grants? Who among us has the tools and the manpower or can we can we pool those resources? Is that a possibility with the current configuration and Then it may be mischaracterizing what you're saying, but I think the summit that we're doing a lot of that And again, I don't know not a lot of that makes it from me to Kevin or from me to you or from Kevin to you We we avoid larger expenses By working with our communities, whether it's labor or the sharing of equipment, especially unique and kind of specialized equipment I was specifically talking about bike lanes here. Do we do that with other communities through the CCRPC? Well, we get the federal grants through the CCRPC and they prioritize the projects, but the local match is always local or do we branch out We can get into weeds here in the RPC. They have What they describe projects of regional significance a regionally significant project carries within a lower local match required So we don't explicitly go to our neighbors And ask for their support for a project. That's really significant the RPC alone makes those determinations but if there is a project that is deemed kind of Not just of a microscopic benefit It cost us less money at various stages of the grant process Okay, so does that include the bike lanes? I Think what I'm describing are Are you talking about the new bike lanes or the painting of markings new bike lanes? Yes, so Capital all capital projects go are eligible for this regional significant designation All right, but the local match does it always come from our pocket? If it's in our city, yeah, yes Yeah, I mean, I'll I guess I'll leave I'll leave that sort of fight to Kevin if At when he gets together with his colleagues If South Burlington as a project that you all think benefits everyone else and you want to Ask us to ask others to contribute I would say that hasn't I don't recall that ever happening. So so they're like the bike bridge is an example Or the bridge across interstate isn't a potential Potentially is an example of that. We're working with Wilson on the Kimmel Avenue The repair of the failed culvert But that happens to be a shared municipal asset So we're working with them on the bike and head part of that But I think that's that's not quite I think what you're talking about Well, I know a previous city manager He really bemoaned the fact that we don't have county government and I think this is one of those instances where I think that South Burlington is You know a go-through place for a lot of people and and a lot of the costs fall on our residents whether it be for the PFOA in our water whether it be You know the the bike lanes to get down route to and I know there are people coming from Williston to get to my place of work Because I know when we were looking at the I Can't remember. It's not smart streets. What is it complete street? I had people from Williston contacting me Right lobbying me to go through with it, right? And it was our local match and I Just I think that there I Mean I'm not going to change it here tonight, but it's too bad that there is not a more shared responsibilities particularly given our Geographical location and then the number of people that make our way on our streets. We have storm on our projects that On a watershed base cross-missile boundaries. We're sharing those and we widen Williston Road a few summers ago The that should have been all local share in South Burlington because it was cool in South Burlington We paid half the local share or we were programmed to pay half the local share The University of Vermont and the city of Burlington were each going to pay a quarter so 25% of local share Even better you need to be convinced University to donate easements necessary along what I call their rugby field or their heel pad field the value of that donated easement exceeded our cumulative local share So we ended up paying zero So we I mean that's a very recent example of when there's been a project that was just in South Burlington But we're able to work with our partners to reduce our costs in this case by happenstance Reduce our cost to zero. Okay, so this response is more hopeful than He's gonna have to go You know elbow his way with I mean that that's that was that was probably unique situation We were working on an intercept facility in back of the Sheridan with those other with the same two partners as well That project lots a little seemed if it were to have advanced I know Burlington still interested in fact in the RPCs work plan. They're still showing intercept facility for that location just in Burlington So yeah, there are there are some potential projects from transportation perspective That are both you them in Burlington have seen value to sharing what is in the past and will you be participating in this Land value of development return on investment priority. Yeah, I mean Kathy. I'm sitting here and Kathy Ann and I'm myself and Kevin and Tom. We also the presentation that and I counsel may have to that basically You know the deep and we're all familiar with the book. There's no such thing as free parking, right? Well, when we get it when we get when we get a new development turned over to us There's no such thing as free free infrastructure Because there's a knife set this to numerous. There's a massive cost to maintaining it So what what this effort is going to be about is trying to determine Where that infrastructure is going to cost you more money versus where it's going to be a Benefit to you financially. So It will primarily be a planning zoning led project will be providing GIS the systems because it is kind of a layer database As well as input on infrastructure Cost as well as maintenance, but yeah, we'll be involved It's pretty interesting out if we're able if we're successful in getting this It's probably visually one of the most interesting presentations that you This I see is specifically benefiting South Brompton. It tells the story In a much better way than any of any other presentation you've seen So the UPWP selection committee of which I'm on our meetings are generally January February Late spring the RPC Board of Commissioners Makes a kind of approves the whole thing This is all fiscal 18 or fiscal 19. So nothing can start until July 1st So timeline would be these are all for next these are all next fiscal year projects Could it be completed a fiscal year 19? The RPC is very interested in this project. So that could make it more complex Or it could add value frankly and by value. I mean kind of resources and time Generally, we're seeing studies this level take around six to nine months So, yeah, it should it should be but Pat, do you have any questions for Justin Yeah, so made it Townsend had spoken to me about requests from residents to get a Crosswalk like somewhere between, you know, Proudie Parkway and St. John Viennese because St. John Viennese got its own crosswalk, which might be unique in some ways You know, we have the flashers the solar powered flashers So it's hard for people from that part just down by that, you know, the The reconstructed, you know culvert to get across the road because there's a lot of traffic on that road so So she had heard from her constituents and so I just thought I would relay that to you and she said that they're I guess There's technical issues where there's no landing point, you know on the side Right, so now is that a is that a state regulation that there has to be something there or is it something that we can If the goal is for a blinky crosswalk I will dampen the room's mood by letting you know that on December 23rd federal highway pulled the interim approval on Blinky crosswalks They have yet to be a they're in a trial period right now And once it makes it to the trial and becomes adopted you can do do them do with them as you may on December It's literally a late the day in December 23rd, which is wonderful timing. They pulled the approval on them What that means is two things one you can no longer use federal money to install them to if you do install them You have no legal cover For any incidents that result from their installation So my recommendation to our city's attorney to the manager to the council would be They are no They know new installations should be considered until they're back under the guys of federal highway They told us we could keep our existing ones through their useful service life Which is an interesting term if you see now they act and really clean mother So we can't do any we can't do Blinky crosswalks there or anywhere else the state on Christmas Eve sent an email saying because they got a lot as you can imagine they get a lot of responses from us Relax, it's Christmas Eve. We'll figure it out and get back to you So I'll give them a month or two to formalize kind of a state opinion on this But so because of that we can't put a Blinky crosswalk there. We could put a regular crosswalk there It's state highway. We need their permission to do so Would they provide would they create obstacles to that because of the way the road is laid out or? Because there's no receiving area yes In general will the state create obstacles to things occurring within their right of way? Yes Doesn't matter what things are no it doesn't mean it can't happen For example, we were able to get a crosswalk approved at the base of Eldridge tying over to Hayes as the result of the O'Brien project So and so we've had some recent success, but Process If the decision were made and I keep reminding representative Townsend and our frequent email exchanges that we have a bicycle and pedestrian committee and our Priorities and our efforts are focused and aligned with theirs. They're aware of the situation and as of right now Doesn't mean it can't be Well, thank you Justin will be back Thursday night for the budget presentation as well Do you grow money trees? Yeah Thank you. Thank you very much Thursday Moving on Item 10 the Wheeler Park Nature Park easement task force presentation of their report Donna Laban are you gonna Great it was a good report. Thank you I did Clear clearing the way to finally present this we all had to reread it It's been a while since we work on this Okay, so for the record, would you please identify yourself? So Yes, I'm Donna Laban Member of the bike and head committee and the chair for the Wheeler Nature Park conservation framework task force Jennifer Coakman and I'm one of them to representatives from recreation parks committee Yeah, I would know The audience we have other members Not here looks like you're all here Okay, that would be great. It's actually our second slide That's helpful. So Kathy Frank from the bike and head committee who's on there Michael Semino from recreation and parks Melissa Q from Natural Resources Committee Betty Valencia who is here natural Resources Committee Sarah Duff from South Rowington Land Trust. She's here Michael Mitag from South Rowington Land Trust is here And then Kathy Ann LaRose from City Planning and Maggie Lugers So that's the The extent of the So I Just One that most people ask is what is the purpose of a conservation easement? What does it do for us and you know, what would you do it? We'll a nature park This is this is the purpose statement and Rather than read that I kind of pulled pulled out the major the major pieces of it And the first is really to preserve a natural ecosystem in a protected nature park and That that's probably the more obvious one. It's a parcel of property that needs to be protected Secondly is to support the long-term management of one of the city's most valuable resources And I think the report also I hope it does justice to the fact that you know, this is a very valuable piece of natural resource that the city has and It needs protection because there's a lot of efforts to encroach on it from you know, there's historically there's been Several attempts to to encroach on it for the various reasons You know various various uses that would be beneficial to the city, but it also kind of Takes away a valuable resource that you can't replace once it's been used for something else So there are educational resources Available through that land there's cultural and historical Particularly the homestead, which was a was a farm and it's still being maintained as agricultural uses in a different way But that's a valuable resource that's almost lost in the city at this point and and also the natural resources Thirdly that it allows public access in a way that Minimizes any negative impacts. We want people to be able to go there and enjoy the natural systems Without damaging the water supply the natural the surface waters and also To make sure that the wildlife habitat is protected And then there's other conservation values that are that that property in particular one of them is used but You know we could probably a number of other ones, so trying to the Protection as a conservation easement is really is really aimed at Recognizing the value and protecting the resource that we have One of the unique things about An easement on this property is that it's really Intended to also sustain a harmony or balance between the nature park and the multi-use homestead It's a little unusual. Well, it's quite unusual actually for a conservation easement to have a dual dual Use And and that that is something that in terms of the legal agreements will have to be negotiated Because the the way of maintaining in the city will still be the one maintaining Both parcels, but the the management plans for the natural area our orbit are definitely different from Maintaining the homestead areas as are the uses and we'll get Jennifer will kind of get into that a little bit more about what they allowed and not allowed uses are For each area and that was in the report So the framework report is is really the first step In a multi-step process So we've we've completed the first piece along with SE Group I see The SE Group was They were the ones that produced the report and that resulted from a Series of meetings I think five or four or five at least at least at least yeah, maybe maybe more than that Of the committee with the SE Group. We had one public meeting So the public was able to weigh in on this it definitely was a process and a lot of discussion some of some of these elements the wording was worked over months to you know to get the the Purpose statement in particular. There was a lot of reworking of that So but it is the first step so the following steps Are basically it kind of falls back in the lap of the city manager's office at this point after the city The city council agrees to move ahead with this the city's responsibility will to be go to Select one of the partners that we've already interviewed the land trust Vermont land trust or One of one other housing and conservation board Those two those two they're both Vermont based they made more sense than any of the national ones And so that recommendation is in the framework I just mentioned one thing and it's about the the matter of perpetuity And we knew we had to get into that at some yeah, well it is on that screen To at the very end on page five in one of these nice little boxes it There is the word perpetuity and the definition of perpetuity and it is also in the in the last Item on there that all restrictions and reserve rights are in effect in perpetuity and I was actually I didn't realize I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That's all right. It requires emphasis. I'm sure So but the the steps in here the choosing the partner and then Negotiating the terms, you know that requires a selection of a both lawyer a law firm to work on behalf of the city To negotiate the terms with the conservation easement folder the drafting the easement Assessing the baseline condition of the property so that basically you're saying this is the point at which then The the protection begins. This is the condition of it. This is where the roads are This is where the parking areas are this is the extent of paving Those things that are not to be expanded You know basically establish what is the limits of that and even right now? What is the actual property line dividing the Wheel or nature park from the homestead, you know, we've gone out there and walked it and everything, but you know, the map that is This you can see up the Dorset Street is going north-south to on the left side of the page and you can see the the relatively rectangular size with the With the kind of egg-shaped pointy egg-shaped or pear-shaped cutout You know that being part of the land swap with the leg piece on the lower right So those are the two pieces that are swapped So the make the homestead is the one that has the green stripes through it and The nature park is the remaining portion and so, you know, they're really distinctly distinctly different uses between those two so Then form once the agreement is formalized and and you know the task force we're hoping that City council will agree to keep the task force together so that the questions come up and particularly once this agreement is formalized that we have a chance to review it and basically form Sure, I'm sorry On the very last slide. We are in the way that this is written Step four is that after the city attorney? Engage a city attorney and move into negotiations with the conservation partner the task force then reviews the final conservation easement Terms with the task force and and collects comment on that. So we do have one more step in the Formal process. Okay. I'm glad you pointed that out. Yeah, so so then the Once they agreement is formalized and then the monitoring enforcement definitely the city still has maintenance and Jennifer will go into the Go into a little bit more detail on that so So basically just in wrapping up my version of conservation easement is a legal restriction It's placed on a property that limits certain types of uses and prevents development on the land in perpetuity So the impotuity becomes You know an important piece of this. It's just like so you have to consider into the future What kind of what kind of needs the part, you know, the property is going to have in the future and and not restrict that But restricted to just you know a broad intent As well as kind of considering Consideration of specific things that might be needed and might be appropriate versus those that are not And and basically, you know, make sure that this remains a resource to the city forever So Into this section which spells out something that's really important to understand about Conservation easement versus management plan versus city ordinance because this was something it took us a long time to work through One of the things that the SE group wanted us to understand is that our partner in this whether it's the land trust or the other the other group Can only monitor so much there are certain things that they can't do and certain things that the city is still responsible for doing and so This really nice Presentation here. It's so compact But it shows what is allowed and what is not allowed in both the nature area and in the homestead area And it shows it breaks it down into all of the different components that Go into these various items and Which ones will be done by city ordinance which ones will be done by a master plan And we've all been working in pieces on getting a master plan for parks together And what can be done by the conservation easement? so Looking at this the the first thing I think that is That we want to review and keep in mind is the allowed uses on For instance on the natural area and the prohibited uses on the natural area and we went through these after identifying as Donna said Identifying what the base of all of this is what do we have there now? What do we want to maintain of that and where might we want to change some of that and and I think we had such a Representative committee I think that there were there were really good people with a lot of different interests on the committee from natural resources and bike and Ped and land trust and and recreation of parks So it was a good diverse group of people who were coming up with all of these different kind of interests that we wouldn't want to see for the for this property so For instance Dogs in accordance with city ordinances that would be a matter of city ordinances and right now That is a matter of having your dogs on a leash in the natural area and being able and picking up after your dog Prohibited uses on the natural area of motorized vehicles a punk truck a designated dog park permanent structures Mineral extraction water extraction wind and solar facilities we went around on that one for quite a while Alteration of landforms with restriction of amount That would have to be something that the conservation easement would have to looking at the terms of all this They would have to weigh in on that residential commercial development and so forth and then Looking at the homestead what is allowed community municipal and nonprofit uses That might be including putting up a temporary structure like a tent for a wedding something like that Community garden already there Burlington Garden Club already there Events permitted by the city again that would be Perhaps some event kind of situation structures related to existing uses so That would be any kind of structure that is related to the gardening or Basically gardening or or temporary kinds of events that would be that would be what we're looking at So I think this is a really it's it's a really dense informed piece of information on giving you what's allowed was not allowed in the two different areas and and Where you know how these are going to be governed? Yeah, and there was just On the structures related to existing uses, you know because the homestead house, you know the that house is there And so there was quite a bit of discussion about improvements, you know Limited expansion, you know because that that property could be used for many different things and So it was that was probably one of the most contentious discussions is like well how how much expansion of this prop of this building for You know for uses related to whatever is in that building and so, you know that one You know, there's not a lot of detail around that But you know that that's something that I think there's there's quite a bit of discussion that could still surround that is this a consensus of the Committee so everyone is signed on to them. Well that last one was the one that I think I was related to yeah, Mike Siminoe I think was kind of the the one who Sort of expressed some disagreement with pretty much everybody else on the committee on that one because you know his thought was well, you know Should be able to expand that But you know and it was a question. I mean I was sort of in between on it Well, I wouldn't want to make it any bigger to the point because one things we all agreed on We don't want to have additional parking no additional paving no additional roadways You know that just is no point in paving over a piece of natural resource And so that in itself kind of limits the expansion of the building So currently then in your estimation of committee's estimation that they're in the designated parking areas for the homestead and I guess probably for the natural area there are sufficient Slots for the current uses. Yeah, and most most of those slots aren't yeah, most of those slots are not used by People using the nature park or the homestead most of those slots are used by people Use the using the Veterans Park, you know, that's that's that's basically and then there's a lot of outside uses Because the nature park or the homestead does include for the most part the parking lot that's off of Swift Street Swift Street extension, you know, so that lot is inside the homestead, you know If there's there's commercial users who would like to you know How use the property for weddings or something like that and it's important that you not be paving over more land to allow for commercial uses like that and senses that future users of Natural area could park at that from Memorial Park and walkover. Well, you can park in existing parking space Yeah, so there's We know how it's used now if it's enhanced if it's I don't know made Modernized in some way or it becomes more popular. I mean, this is perpetuity, right? Pressures grow you can imagine Like Central Park probably gets more use now than it did when it was first established There's almost no parking in Central Park. I understand and that's why it's a very good example No, that's a very good example because I think if anything South Burlington needs to understand that you can't drive everywhere In this world and you shouldn't put parking lots and parking garages in places that are natural areas So Central Park is actually a perfect example of you know, allow allow people to use this Protect it, but there's places cars should just not be Okay, so you have that Very much so it's hard to Project into the future and be certain that you really that was that was a topic of discussion Yeah, that was a topic of discussion the next several generations. Yeah, let's go to the next slide so we are at step one here and We need to choose a conservation partner and that's up to the city management City Council to Do that then engage a city attorney and then where the task force again would come into this would be to review The final conservation easement terms with the task force and collect comment so I'm I'm hoping that the the task force as it is or with replacement people can can review those terms and And and we did have some discussion about and everybody that the Term that kept coming up over and over well fifty years time fifty years out What if conditions change? What if the city has new needs that kind of thing and there was some? There were some people who want to say you know write that into the agreement terms But what if situations and and there is on page 15 of the of the larger document Or at least 15 and my copy there are there is a suggestion of what if scenarios? And and that would be something for you to Ponder and for the city attorney and the land trust attorney or whoever is our partner in this to To decide Your committee wants to review it Yeah, that's really yeah, yeah Formalize the Correct Yeah I think we would make recommendations we would look it over we would say we like this we you know We have a question about this and and it would just be another layer of review on this And then it would go to city council to finalize it and and make a an actual legal It's a it's what we're looking for is a final legal document of agreement between the city and the partner on the Eastman Michael Mitek just And then there was a lot of discussion about the fact that the building itself was in historic building And should be changed Your presentation of the consensus regarding the future and structures and parking it just reminds me of my cousin's wedding Near Miami, Florida, which took place in the kind of a botanical garden and we took a bus there There was no It was very limited parking, so they arranged for the bus So I just wanted to it was a decision and the home is an historical structure That's in the botanical garden and they have a bed of breakfast But it is a preserved kind of And that's how you deal with it different kinds of transportation. Okay, the question I had was With regards to the Vermont land trust input and feedback and I understand from what you wrote that Vermont housing and conservation board never did meet with you So you just had feedback from the Vermont land trust with regard to potential partnership. Is that right? That's what it sort of said Yeah, it was more four initially and three or four initially and These were the two that finally remained And I I'm sorry, I I guess I should have I kind of put a mental note to go look at your minutes online and then So if you could kind of fill in what is here, this is on page 18 of the document we received And I realized you're working from memory and I can go check those minutes, too It's the second paragraph With that begins with mr. Heiser And it starts with the second sentence Mr. Heiser explained that the Vermont land trust cannot take on restrictions. The organization cannot enforce such as dog or bicycle use So does that mean they cannot enforce it? Okay And it's also not a conservation So that that restriction wouldn't even be in the conservation easement That's basically a restriction that has to be imposed by city ordinance So the conservation values do not prohibit bikes or dogs. That would be a local decision on how to use It's covered by city ordinance. Okay, and and it would be up to the city to patrol And then he goes on to say It's the second half. I'll just keep reading mr. Heiser also explained the importance of the conservation values and the restrictions placed on the land The vlt would not feel comfortable preventing public uses that are not Comfortable to conservation values as that could place them in a difficult political position 50 or 100 years down the road If the community wanted to do something that wasn't allowed under an easement So that's just a lot And did he unpack that at all? To you I don't think that we got into the reads on that okay I think that that is the kind of thing where The city attorney and their attorney would have to meet and Then their attorney would be saying representing them and saying This is what we can do and this is what we can't do and You know, there would have that would be done in at that level I think So on your plan where you have the ce conservation easement, right? That's that agreement that that's right for the attorneys would have to Negotiate that a lot the management plan would stay separate the city ordinances would stay separate. Okay All right, elaborate on that on your question because if if there's a use that the Vermont land trust say Notes that in some way down the road that is in conflict with The conservation values They may come to the city and say this is a a use which is not in accordance with Our views of this easement you the city must decide whether to allow it or not and if you do allow it You must enforce I'm sorry Yeah, I'll try to keep them brief. So You've done a lot of great work. I'm impressed. Thank you very much for all that time How can we preserve that whole process so it can be repeated for Underwood and the next one that comes after that so that we you don't have to spend so many hours I mean, you still have to go do the you know Go through the same process, but for what you've learned is there a way to somehow You know gel that up and then write it down so that the next group You know that undertakes the task and there will be overlap of some people right, you know It makes it easier for them So how to plow the road for the next the next time just just to keep that in mind All right, because it's going to happen at least at least two more times. I'll bet Well, the process seems to be clear enough, you know, because this is a great documentation for the process, right? The process was great. Um, I think that the uses the permitted uses and you know, there's a lot of local input too And you know, it's not really surprising that most of the most of the input came from, you know, the neighborhoods kind of surrounding Surrounding that area. So that's going to differ from one place to another Um, I was interesting. I was interested the fact that there was no mention of the 2006 police station vote Did did I not see that or was it not in there? Or it wasn't in the back of our mind 2011 vote was in there, which is I thought the 2006 vote was very important That it was a public statement made about what they thought or how they thought that that land should be created So I had kind of in my own words kind of said well, what does this whole thing mean? It says just because the city owns this land does not give it the right to locate or build x on it Right, you know, is that that seems to be a popular notion that because the city owns this it's you know It's free land and we can you know, we can save money by building on it There's a terrible temptation Uh when there's land You know to take that attitude about it, you know, and unfortunately the encroachment eventually Takes over takes over and you lose something, you know, even by eating away the edges of it Was that part of the dog park prohibition? Well the dog conversation the dog park i'm sort of surprised it was one of the prohibitions Yeah, the dog park prohibition has a lot more to do with it because maintaining the wildlife, you know You can still walk dogs on a leash there. That's a city ordinance controlled thing But a dog park is not that and um, there's there's quite a bit of wet wetlands there And you know just the level of dog use that already has is is plenty And then there's the issue if you put it in the homestead where it is an allowed use Um, what are you supplanting as another use that you'd like to have if people want to have weddings there Do you really want a dog park there too? I I I want to take exception could we back it up one slide I thought about the dog park because when donna and kathiana and I were meeting We wondered about this and it is not explicitly prohibited in the homestead However, if you look at the last one of those Um structures related to existing uses To me putting up a dog park with fencing and all is not related to existing uses at all And it does um it is a permanent structure and so um To me that rules out a dog park in that In that area, I also think that it was the sense of this committee that The homestead area is has its own In in addition to the history it has its own aesthetics And and what's been done with it right now is really beautiful the gardens and the children's park and So on the triage the triage And I just The community gardens so to me If I I'm guessing that if the dog park suggestion came to the committee at this point, we would probably I you know, I don't have in touch with people, but I would think we would probably say No, that's not what we're envisioning for the homestead Which brings up another Point in the prohibited uses on the on the natural area You don't have agricultural extraction this was that done on purpose or was that an oversight or So for example, if I wanted to go pick mushrooms because I'm A fun guy, you know And I like to I know but but I mean so No, that's another question So that but that's a had you not considered people Perhaps planting things they shouldn't plan or harvesting things that are naturally occurring that maybe they shouldn't harvest or Just a thought we could put into a city ordinance or a master plan But you can't you know says you're prohibiting mineral extraction so you can't take rocks out, right You can't take you can't divert water or take water out, right? So just just those tend to involve major construction Oh, oh, okay, whereas, you know You're planting mushrooms. You can pick a mushroom stone and taking mushrooms. You don't have to do anything You you know, you you can't take clay from the cliffs of the Quinn on Martha's vineyard, right? Great, okay Also, don't don't preclude a path from that second parking lot to go up to the Wheeler homestead the house itself Right because there's no defined path right now And it's really difficult to negotiate freshly cut I mean kudos to public works for trimming and cutting all of that brush, right all the invasives and stuff But it would be nice if there was a real path Yeah, we it's it's roads driveways vehicle travel ways It's specific that pathways in pedestrian ways are definitely So, but what if the wheeler house And just things happen, what if it if it had a catastrophe and burned down or something like that it Is there is there at least a Some sort of a clause that doesn't prevent you from rebuilding that building I think that is something for city council and Would you have to like use the exact same footprint or or just a total square area or you know things like that So you I think the kind of historical designations because I've I've done work with our historical Things and and they're definitely the historical societies have guidelines about replacing historical Buildings and you know to what extent you can replace it versus replicated So I would probably defer to the historical people on that one And perpetuity doesn't scare me. I mean I've been to mount auburn and cambridge and although it doesn't have it has a conservation reason because it's a It's a cemetery, right? I mean there are jewels of parks all across this country and they've been around for At least a hundred years So I would hope that these places will be around for at least another couple hundred years I think the the valuable thing that you say that you can you can get you know at the nature park is You can get away from the city You know and it's amazing how for such a small park that it is how completely you are away from noise and and uh hustle and bustle Can I just ask pat do you have any questions? I do Just a couple and maybe it's comments more than anything I was curious as to under the allowed uses where he had listed the storm water features um That required the approval. I was surprised that there was a plant technical piece in there that said it required the approval of the conservation partner Why was that? Well, I know that's part of the storm water feature that because the lag portion But there are definitely city stormwater uses already existing in that parcel um now Like so if you have to repair them or replace them new ones or replacement or maintenance of them I think that that's probably something that would have to be addressed legally Um is in in addition to anything anything new that would be added into that if I could read the part that I think Some of the thinking on that was if there are new storm water practices that come along if if somebody has a better idea of how to manage storm water then Putting those in might be Done with with the partner the notes from your meeting with mr. Heiser kind of address this idea. It states here um Task force members ask of the easements Typically require approval of the management plan by the vermont land trust and mr. Heiser explained that they either explicitly require vermont land trust approval or require uh, sorry That management plans must be consistent with the protection of conservation values which comes to the same So something with regard to is it in keeping with the conservation values of the easement contract I think that's where the storm water Yeah, because I mean there were there were definitely some discussions That you know some real concern because there's a pretty major piece of wetlands as part of this property that that nothing be done to kind of expand or change um How that wetland operates and you know the way it functions right now Or try to make you know, perhaps because there's some development that's planned on the others on the heinsberg side You know that that they not assume that you know, they can dump their storm water Because the property line of Wheeler park goes right through the middle of that wetlands A lot of the wetlands is on the opposite side Of it's on a different parcel which the city actually does control But it's not part of the official designation of the wheeler nature park So that's you know, and apparently it was too complicated to try to include there's two pieces of property Actually, they're a but this That both of which it would be nice if they could be included as wheeler nature park You know one is the land directly adjacent to it, uh on the east The Oak Creek the Oak Creek. Yeah, the the sort of the piece that Extends all the way up to Oak Creek And then also there's a there's a little bump of land with a pretty big knob of rock that where the um the swift street kind of goes around it, you know kind of forms a a little bit of a A dangerous curve in the wintertime But um slows people down It does and but in fact, you know, that's not officially part of wheeler park that it's used that way You know, there's trails that go up into that, you know, and Um, and it would be nice if that piece could also become part of the nature park So you don't have that little that little piece that it's somehow You know built on Well, it could you know or or something like that. Did you show us on the map where that is? Is it where it bumps up at the top? Yeah, and you don't know Um, that isn't part of um, I think it's part of veterans park How do we own that that bump? I think we do don't we? That's where the parking is that where the parking is for Yeah No, there's no parking there, but it is wetlands There's wetlands there and then just Is wetlands like right opposite? You're right at the opposite the entrance to veterans park. It's a wetland and then just to the east of that it's uh It's actually kind of out of no, but it's an entry into the walking trail, isn't it? Oh, no, I know that walking trail goes there If it's dry you can get through there, but it's it's often too wet to use that as an entrance That's where the parking is so people do Well from the parking you go there, but but to actually kind of It's it's not that easy to just cross Out of the park and go straight across into the nature park You have to divert a little bit around and there is a trail that goes through there, but sometimes it's just wet And it goes up the hill and we've sledded down Yep, they do oh, it's it's actually one of the It's the dog run. I call it the dog run because people people walk up and down with their dogs often okay I was just gonna say really quickly Megan and tim already asked him a little question. So what I had I just want to say Um perpetuity doesn't scare me either. Um, what I would say is conservation easements were just very unknown and foreign to me And this report was fabulous. It really starts to draw a box around this So it's clear what questions we need to ask And so this was just great effort and a great effort and really appreciated appreciative of it And the trail you were talking about tim was from this parking lot up to the house, right? That's what you were interested in Yeah, hold on it's yeah, it's from that parking lot that's off of um, it's you know swiss tree extension Up to the house There was quite a lot of discussion about that on the task force and we actually sort of sussed one out informally And discussed the fact that it's quite steep and therefore it would have to be conquered so that Not only us young types can walk So there was a lot of discussion about it. We just didn't formalize it Yeah, the more roundabout route actually takes you across two recently built little bridges Who you know, so those are a lot of Very nicely built, but you know, it takes you a little more roundabout, but it's definitely not steep It's it's very it's very doable now Pat did you get all your questions or comments made? Well, not quite. Um, there were a couple of items. I was a little disappointed because I thought that there might be opportunity to explore for The dog park area and I heard the comments on that. I won't necessarily agree, but and um I'm a perpetuity person to a degree that we have established other areas in the city on energy, which I feel is very important as well and we've looked at those over a 20 or 25 year period and we have A great deal of interest in conserving land and I understand that this is a job as a place And I do see that we're also making some decisions that are going out there and a and Jennifer I think it was your comment uh going out quite a ways on this and I would have preferred to have had something that we reexamined after a period of years to a loss in changes even albeit if it was as simple as parking area Differences in how we maintain the buildings um I'm curious as to what our costs are to maintain the annual at least review of this To be sure it's an order if the conservation land trust fails to adjust at some point in the future Um, what do we do? I think I've got some questions that are not bad. Are you still there? That's right. I think I have a good question You can And that will be something that the attorneys that one of the details that the attorneys will be because What what we don't have what we can't say to you is is all of the experience of the land trust or the other partner And they have some experience with this and they have negotiated these kinds of agreements before and so They can you can raise those questions and they can raise those questions And then when there's a draft of an agreement it can come back to us and we can say well, this is This is pretty much what we envisioned or you know, or we take exception here and there Or recommend something else. I'm trying to go back to you guys Well, I think we can look at cities throughout the country who have parks that have been around for I don't know at least a hundred years With lots of pressure. I mean, can you imagine the pressures on central park? I mean every square foot is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars Tax revenue and all sorts of things to the city yet. They've managed to keep those lines drawn And not turn it into a economic development center So I sort of think that probably the city of south burlington can manage 119 acres Pat are you there? We missed you got cut off about halfway through your question all right the bottom line of what I was saying is that Because of the what we have done with our energy programs and we're We're running out 20 or 25 years I keep seeing the word perpetuity in here and perpetuity is forever on a definite period and Making a decision on some items that could be as simple as changing parking lots Or if the land cost fails to exist and getting another partner So items in here that we aren't addressing or I am not hearing addressed in this teeth when we have perpetuity And I would love to have seen something that was we examined for the bit of the community in 25 or 40 years so that future generations would have equal say in what happens with the management of and with the Just the the general structure itself of the park and the homestead My ceiling I'm probably alarmed that but I'm very strong in that ceiling That the management of the park is still The most part up to the city You know, so a lot of this is addressed by city ordinance And so those things aren't in perpetuity those things those things can change more or less continuously as long as the overall Intent of the conservation easement is I don't know if you heard it Within this as well on the cost or annual cost for review And what do we do if if the Conservation trust does not exist at a future time. How is that built in for the city to have the opportunity to name someone out? Well, I'm sure that'll be in whatever the negotiated legal contract is. I think those are really good questions That We're not teased out by the task force, but are left to the lawyers to figure out and then the city council gets to weigh in So I think those will be addressed whether it's to our liking or not remains to be seen Okay Runs with the land Always so if the Vermont land trust goes out of business The easement is on the land and you find another park you find another park or the city It runs with the land doesn't depend on the existence of a particular Sorry doc. Did you want to yeah, just a couple things some really good comments have have arisen here in answer to Can you hear her? So Well, you know So so some really good comments have come forward in answer to some of Pat's questions But simply to say that first of all the Vermont land trust and other Similar bodies if it ends up being vlt Have lots of experience with this now for 50 years worth of experience So they hold easements with all kinds of individuals, but also municipalities So they have lots of experience with this and the other thing I just wanted to say was that if they went out of existence There are going to be hundreds and hundreds of individuals And municipalities In the same boat And yes the the key point is that the easement runs with the land And so an arrangement would be made by the owner of the land which is still the city of south burlington to continue Stewardship and monitoring of the easement with some I would think in a hundred years Have it having this in perpetuity would be even more important than it will be right now Because everything around it's going to be built up. So I think just the opposite There'll be even a greater Investment in keeping this open because that's all there is You can't go down the road and say, oh, well, there's 100 acres that somebody owns. Maybe we can buy that Well, there was a comment about Tying the hands of future generations. It is exactly What a conservation easement in perpetuity does and does it for a reason And that of people who I've known in places Like new york city or chicago or even burlington with You know People say thank goodness they had that vision and that foresight. Yeah, like red rocks Like red rocks Okay, any other comments, um betty and then I'll probably be able to hear me. I'm loud enough. Um, I guess this is just an aside, but Being familiar with there and if every if people go up there one of the things That we really don't talk a lot about is Beyond the park what is of value and there's a view there That can only be for the public for folks the public to access the view of the green mountains There really isn't any other place but there to see that kind of a view So that's a part of it too. It provides the public with an opportunity to see the see another part of Our you know our state, you know, you really get that view and to me it's priceless and there's other Circumstances that need to be addressed around protecting that view, but for the public it really is in south burlington The best view and probably most priceless view Of seeing mount man's field and the mountain ridge going Right, but but but there is you stand at wheeler and there's no There's nothing Yeah But there's nothing interrupting your view when you look at the green mountains from up there, you know as of the Even though there are Developments there you don't see them and you still see this pastoral view from there all the way up So it's an amazing view. It's a continuous vista of of what Vermont I think means to a lot of us You know, there it is a sweep from the land under your feet all the way up to mount man's field. It's really Unparalleled as Kathy give me a few seconds and closing and summarizing this for you guys you'll Know that a lot of the next steps belong to you and or the city management And city attorney's office As you go through those I think it's worth emphasizing As I worked with this committee that A lot of what is in here was determined through a pretty robust process The this was not a room of eight people who all came in with the same ideas Who really just wanted to get those eight shared feelings on paper? There was a great deal of discussion Even amongst People from the same committees Um The Public meeting I think was pretty well attended This committee even walked out on that site the green line that you see there Was hand gpsed We all went out there. We had a whole meeting or maybe two devoted just to Recognizing the need between the different needs between the homestead and the natural area But really trying to get um to michael's credit Or angst Defining exactly where that line is So as you read through and you may ask yourself did did the committee think about this There's a pretty strong chance that they not only thought about it, but they talked about it for 45 minutes Before talking about it again at the next meeting Just just a little bit of thoughts from staff who watch this unfold over the the better part of the happy year Thank you. Do we have any plans when we do some of this visioning meetings to have them televised? We can depending. We have a we have five a month And five meetings a month two are going on tonight But we cannot try to do that. Well, it's just a thought to engage more people or at least illustrate Perhaps how inclusive and full the conversation Can be on the recreation department and the planning department remain committed to helping you As you go through this was a an effort of multiple departments in the city because we recognized that The goals transcended individual department projects Yes, oh, that's right. I'm sorry. You had a couple questions or comments just just a couple questions were for Um for the committee much of the land currently holds restrictions based upon agricultural soil mitigation easements Did the committee consider a cause to be considered? How much? Um protection has afforded the property based upon what currently exists on the property Yeah, that was our our beginning study was what what did you find out? Because my point being that that are are if if If the agriculture restrictions that are on the land get to the broader objectives of the committee Then Then are we talking about belt suspenders approach here? If you don't I mean so so the land is being used for off-site mitigation For other developments. There are restrictions on the use of the land today What what there's a question what is being gained by going on another thing too fast? How did those how did the uh egg mitigation The restrictions on this piece of land coming to being I know about the egg mitigation restrictions on the 28 acres we earn on the east But um, we were not aware of any agricultural mitigation restrictions on wheeler You were you were unaware that they're the nature park Yeah, you we really have to because we talked about them very specifically with the homestead as being the agricultural area About the restrictions that currently exist on the land that you're talking about here There are already restrictions on that land. Did you not? Is that map somewhere? Yeah The observation as Mr. james would would Um I just supersede those well, all I'm saying is that and I I kind of get that all I'm saying is that if If the existing restrictions get you get the committee What it wants by way of perpetuity Then do we want to spend x thousands of dollars on lawyers and all getting yes Well, I mean really as the person who's got to manage the legal budget And sometimes doesn't do a very good job that I kind of like to know that up front the committee should know that Yeah, no, I think we I mean my sense is that there's a marginal additional But I don't know that Maybe that's our next step is we need to talk to our lawyers and Andrew and have him give us an idea of what's currently on this land and Kathy, did you guys not Was there an attorney that worked on this from stitzel or No, so if you recall this goes back maybe even predates a few of the counselors This was the topic of At least one maybe two city council meetings one of which I was not at Um, and I think that the conversation The exact question that you posed was the question that was talked about at those meetings Um, and the direction that came from the council at that meeting was to form the committee regardless um and sort of Uh kick the can down the road as to whether to pursue the easement after that but I think I think your recollection From jim at the time is about the is very close to the question you've asked How much more Protections are afforded with an easement versus none. That was something I think that was hotly debated I don't remember at that um Council meeting that almost a meet I want to say it almost immediately preceded the formation of this task force anybody else get a better memory than me girl That's ringing some bells. It was in a few months. We were in the police department when we had that meeting But I don't what I don't recall is ever understanding What that overlay was I knew we had to make this swap Of um or not swap land, but but the agricultural um Covenant or whatever on quite a few acres But I I don't recall how many acres and I don't know what part of the parcel I sort of thought it was the long skinny thing, but it it it probably is more and I think that's an important Overlay to understand especially when you're carving out Potentially the um homestead as having a slightly different set of markers for an easement and then the rest of the piece and if three quarters of it is Covered by ag Covenants then then the conversation might be a little bit different about what you do with the rest of it I don't know Covenants are part usually part of an act to 50 permit terms almost all and it's our view that an act to 50 permit A landowner can ask for waivers or ask for a chance. So it's not an opportunity in an easement in perpetuity I think that's changed michael in recent years As it relates to how you can use land Um swapping around agriculture easements. It's a it's a restrictions. So it's a discussion worth having but I think we need to Just do at least a high speed pass over that issue because there's a prior restriction on the land That predates the the recent discussions that we're all familiar with And we should know that so I certainly want all of the council to have all of the information they can I will work with the city manager's office to Get you the memos that were originally prepared by jim barlow To have all of the information before you make any decisions That helps with your memory. I think the other part of the discussion and I don't mean to ignite that here And I certainly don't want to ignite that here Yeah, the other part of the discussion that same evening. I believe was whether or not the vote that was put Right about the swap required a conservation easement to take place I don't think that's the question. Do you hear no, but if it jogs your memory, that was the other part of the Debate that evening and I believe that there's legal memos that were prepared to to both effects that we can We can get for you Well, I am open to receiving and reviewing that information again having that discussion I just wanted to draw our attention to what mr. Heiser said regarding Something that's that, you know, directly encapsulating what we're discussing at present, but It does refer to it's on page 19 and it's the second to last paragraph of the number six summary of his meeting And again, it starts with mr. Heiser Mr. Heiser also indicated that having two zones for the conservation easement And then in between parentheses homestead and natural area Is not typically common in a vermont land trust conservation easement And that the vermont land trust would not be as comfortable with that as a single easement that could apply evenly across the entire park And then he went on to suggest he suggested perhaps the easement could be broad enough in its protections and restrictions to cover both areas And that certain zones could be excluded from the easement altogether. So He did address The idea of You know treating it as a whole versus treating it as pieces and he tends to suggest that If it's going to be an easement should be a whole Otherwise it shouldn't be I think that was the consensus of the task force that it should be a single easement with some Different terms applied to different to the two areas a single easement Yeah, and then the next the next line actually kind of also addressed that the management plan could and probably should deal with The two zones differently in their management and allowed uses So it's kind of saying it's one it's one overall conservation easement, but the management plan definitely addresses the different uses Any other questions or comments? Well, thank you very much. This is um, really a wonderful document. You've covered a lot of ground Um impressive with coming to consensus on All the different items that you did because I know how difficult that can be sometimes So I thank you very much in today's environment It is a case in point a very important one that people of very divergent views Came together and managed to get this thing done So the rider find the consensus Thank you very much. Thanks. I think um, we'll just take a few minutes break. So And we as well and then we'll come back to item 12 financials Pat do you hear we're taking a break for a few minutes Are you done? Pat are you still there? Okay, we're just we're just doing a five-minute, uh, Sue Allen next break And then there's only two other items on the agenda Every sign awards If it doesn't work I stopped, you know, I had one It will not harm it if you put it in and it doesn't read stick it back the other way So you've got police department Nice job Yeah Probably considered business Yeah, I don't know how they charge for this Thank you, buddy I'm just curious 31 And then this iPad wireless How many All the I don't know if the technology allows it Or so Okay, yeah, they're probably coming back it's a special accounting Sometimes I hate Transition I don't know I I mean I'm sure like 10 years ago The one that went back to 19 10 years ago Now I have a Yeah, I always look for things to do with my kids You say if it doesn't get They try to promote See Can they still get to it through the ball Two copies of that So I just told her I've had They're getting responses saying I don't know why We resolved it twice To Lighting up the W2s You know When you file The Okay, are we Ready to rock again Okay, so I'd like to Convene the south burlington city council once again the november November January second meeting And we'll continue with item 12 on the agenda the uh november financials with tom haberg Thanks, holland. So, uh, still not a huge story to tell next month. We'll have the The narratives from each of the department heads and I'm sure you'll get somewhat of an update from from them at the at the budget meeting too, but Revenues right now just 49% Looking at the budget on a linear Line or chain here where it's 42% so far into the year. So we Um, just to give you a sense of the percentages expenditures right now or about just under 43 percent I'm sure you've taken a look at the enterprise funds and said, oh my gosh. What is going on in storm water So we're we're fine 36 in revenue 34 and expenses The storm water we've taken in 38 Uh percent so far in revenue, but we're at 102 percent at this point in the year in expenditures and I just want to remind you a lot of the projects that were in 17 have been carried over to 18 So a lot of those are starting to come to fruition and there's a lot of this 102 percent that will still be Offset with some of the grant money. It just hasn't all come in yet For some of the storm water water projects that time to peter has been working on so Uh, I just wanted to put your mind at ease when you saw that figure We spent a lot of money Right, right the winter will quiet down a little bit. You won't see as much here going on But it will start up again in the spring and we'll still have some significant Dollars yet to be spent in the storm water, but it all matches The long-term plan for what we have in storm water and The percentages will come a little bit closer together as we go further into the year In the storm water, yeah, we're about 38 percent on the revenue side right now A lot of that's the grant money. Yeah, yeah, so that that's going to continue to offset some of that expense line I have a question Yeah, um, so you you have two positions that are being advertised one for the children's librarian and one for position in storm water Is it's a new a new a new position that's being created or is somebody leaving? This is an additional position in in storm water And it's kind of a A management role position the equivalent to one of the other positions in Storm water right under tom de petro And it's mainly to manage the number of projects that we have going right now As well as some of the help that We're given to the town of shellburn. So we get some of that cost offset Okay, any other comments or questions Okay, Megan Sure So the medical We don't have page numbers, but in our it's page 87 in our packets Are you under um fire? Yeah, it's under ambulance ambulance. Okay Um medical equipment replace Much higher than Two I'm pretty sure that in the um In the in the first quarter narrative, I think Doug had what that replacement something that he needed I'll double check with what that information was Megan and have him get that to you. I'm pretty sure it was in The first quarter narrative Okay And I don't I this might be my memory too Um, but under the police department Here's what police salaries other So I think trevor wanted to offset some of the dispatch and I think this is the This is the on-call and part-time dispatch money that we've been using And he's been wanting to track that so I believe he's been putting it into the other category here Okay, but um, I'll make sure that that's what that is and just confirm that with you Okay It Again, I and I again might not know which lines to look at but I was looking at the city fest and the bikes and bikes and looked under the costs and the revenues and The city fest what I see it earned 7,173 dollars Is it only listed in that one line for the revenues? Or are there other lines that we should be looking at what what in the bikes and bikes earned 5,920 dollars? Whereas the cost 23,911 dollars, so I was Am I not seeing no, that's that's the cost to the city so in the new budget for this year They're completely offset So if if the amount of uh fundraising dollars is not going to equal then we'll have to pair back The bike and bites program So you'll see in the in the fy 19 budget That kind of the goal was to get it off the ground We knew that there had to be an investment of money into it and then we enhanced the infrastructure as well up there Is that included in the 23,000? No. Oh, okay. No, um, so For these two programs to move forward at this point the challenge that is out there that they have to be totally offset With the with the revenues so it is proposed that way In the new budget and if it's not those programs will have to be paired back I I and I just I think it's important for the public to know as well that the our recreation programs have really undergone A huge transformation I know you discussed this at the december 4th meeting With regard to the youth programs now really basically going away because the schools have Really taken on after school in summer camps Right, which is a huge loss of revenue. Right. So they're they're there's also some evening programming that seems to be Um, so is there some visioning or planning going on? I know that I know they're Aware of it. Do you want to mute your side of the phone pat? If you click mute on your phone while you're not talking it would help us out We're hearing a lot of scraping and breathing Pat Could you mute your end of the phone? We're picking up some background noise, but Thank you. Perfect. Thank you pat. Yeah Are they doing some visioning or some planning my understanding is that holly is is meeting with their after school director And we're looking at ways that we can supplement the after school program But also provide opportunities for the larger community that the after school after school programs go and For the summer camp program. We're completely looking at different alternatives probably mainly run by third parties next year of things that Because we won't be doing the traditional day camp, you know, their their focus is it's changing and um but the I do believe that we need a recreation department and I do believe That the public really benefited from city fest in spite of the weather, but particularly the bikes and bites was Huge success. Yeah, and so I I I don't want to suggest that if it's not You know self-sustaining that we should cut it To find a way for the recreation department To be able to bring in the necessary resources in order to be able to provide Exactly events. Yeah public. Well, Maggie is working on developing a foundation. She is Yeah, she is to offset that or at least to provide some of the resources to fund some of these things And to your point, Megan I have a ton of money In some years past we had enough revenue that we would take in from different programs that would run that would allow us To do a lot of these special events kinds of things and that's just not happening anymore So there's a refocus and a new challenge set there as well And and I know they're working hard on trying to come up with a way that they can find Money if need be to help supplement We too agree that It's an extremely important program both city fast and the bike and bites It's become very successful. I'd like to see him like to see him continue. She's uh, she's had a great conversation With a potential sponsor to underrate the total cost of bike and bites and where We remain optimistic. We should know soon Um, and we'll we'll see if that comes to be that will make a huge difference So that's to the tune of about 30,000 dollars and the facilities revenues has really dropped too Is that is this something we're seeing in other communities where we don't see the rec program the sports And and the renting out of our fields or so much of what's done here Megan is with south burlington leagues and teams that are kind of exempt from the field charge So we might get a donation from some of the programs You may see holly come to you with a proposal that says we need to continue to look at this a little bit differently moving forward, um, but What's happening right now is so much of the field use is dominated by the south burlington teams and leagues that there There's not a lot of extra space available or extra time available to have the revenue come in that would Help offset some of the other costs that we have Mainly because we take up so much of that time within our own community And currently right now they're exempt whether it be the school teams or the or the south burlington youth leagues Is the new south village soccer field coming online this year? That will help Yeah, they'll probably be next year tom be another year. Yeah And I saw generator preventive for both The police and for the pollution controls. Yeah, and that Were they unexpected or a little bit? Yeah, just parts that have gone. Yeah All right Public works too Did we buy all those generators the same year? No, no Yeah, some were bought with the federal grant initially Uh, I think there were a couple that were purchased at the same time, but most of them are Have offset here Looking for my fifth question Yeah, it really had to do with Well, Megan's well Megan's looking maybe I'll just share with you we we had a number of calls and we had a lot of people that came in and prepaid taxes and Obviously if they wanted to prepay their their third quarter Or the third payment and for march that applies to their The tax per this year A number of folks Wanted to go above and beyond that and we were careful with our conversation to make sure that they They were making an overpayment of taxes. They weren't paying taxes that they hadn't received a bill for yet So Now that a ruling has has actually come out I know that we're going to start getting a lot of Calls for refunds of some of that money that's been made So I think you'll start seeing on some of the warrants a a refund of overpaid taxes Um, because we can't pay in advance. They can They can for the third installment of taxes that's due for uh in march for fiscal year 18 But because they haven't been invoiced yet and received a tax bill For the next fiscal year the irs has basically made a ruling that you cannot deduct that From your taxes for this year if you were to prepay those taxes, but for march. Yes, the march one is okay Beyond march You haven't been you haven't been billed for no, I understand that Yeah So anyway, I just wanted to give you a heads up on that that it was almost like a tax day Downstairs. Oh, it was there was a line. Yeah. Yeah on the last few days of the year, but uh Anyway, it's you'll you'll see some of those coming through. I'm sure I asked my fifth one in the outset So we're good. Okay. Thank you. I'll follow up on the other side Good questions. Thank you um Item 13 consider convening as the south burlington liquor control board last item I move that we enter into By the second Pat was that a second? Yes, okay all in favor signify by saying I I All righty So we have one license vermont pool and bar llc They're moving From 55 samurai mode. Yeah So Any concerns or questions that anyone has about So I would entertain a motion to approve that license So moved second any discussion All in favor signify by saying I All righty as a sign does anybody know where dave's cosmic subs actually is yeah in the blue ball It is. Do you know what it took over? What space? Do you play sports? Oh, okay. Good. I think that's where um Blue shield blue cross that Is going and get counseling for Signing up for um healthcare health connect vermont health connect Um, okay item 14. Is there any other business? Could I just ask pat a clarification question again? With regard to the dog Pat are you here at megan? She's asking you a question I I try to Not breathe So I was I I missed the december 4th meeting and I know you discussed um dog park location And I am curious, um The picard circle Is city property the the road proper? It would the f a truly have a say over whether or not the city could open a dog park on circle I can't answer that for you Were we to you know, truly plant grass seed and just put a fence around our you know our right away Well, if we own if we own the circle in the middle and the road On it, I would think that would be a question that we would have Come in to explore with Uh, because what I hear is people Want something close by and there isn't residential housing right there, right? No Well, is there a south of it south of it Maybe How about the curvy road extension Make a nice rectangle big run for the dog. You mean all our right away. Yeah Well, it should be a 60 foot right away Yeah, that would be a long Straight that would be a wonderful run to throw ball and have a dog run We'll look at where that we'll try to get a drawing of that. Okay. It is our road in our right away So it's in our land In the peak garden we can look at that Yeah, but yeah, the residential sensitive spot here Yeah, the I know that we're looking for land we own but the kimball avenue You know where we already have access to that land Who walked dogs off leash even with the whales tail? Oh out of tech park. Yeah. Yeah out of tech park. I'm really curious if that's the place to Have a talk and yeah, I know kevin has had conversation in the past and There was an unwillingness at the time to formalize it. Yeah, that you know, he At that parcel as the committee like focused on dog park placement and I think Maggie's just getting that Committee going. Yeah She'll be staying engaged with that Right that piece of things Yeah, the the issue with technology park because we often run our dogs there It's not a whole lot of south burlington people. They come from lots of other places So I was only going to make one comment on the peak art circle area Was that there was a gentleman that or and I believe it was a guy um that had objected to um Henry Henry street being used in a land swap because of he's not wanting something close to his home Right Because he kept his dogs in his yard He didn't want that in his backyard Sure All right, so if there's no other business I would entertain a um a motion for adjournment at 945 So All in favor signify by saying hi. Hi. Thank you No Bye pat. See you Thursday Here I couldn't either to uvm Excuse me But my hybrid didn't hybridize