 So what companies in this agriculture field need to do is help make sure they're communicating right away, not just how the products are made, not their one, two, three steps on how we can take a cell and make it into meat, but also this idea of why, why are companies looking to do this? Why are scientists so excited about the idea of applying cutting edge cell biology into the food sector? Why are we looking into this? And from what surveys have been done in the past, if you explain to the public the why from the environmental sustainability aspects by requiring less resources than conventional animal agriculture for the same products, to the potential public health implications of the clean and sterile environment of using cells directly, people are more understanding and understand, ah, this is why. All right, if this is done appropriately and regulated appropriately, I would be open to it. It's all about the communications and that radical transparency to make sure that people understand their food system. Ahmed Khan is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Ahmed is a cellular agriculture consultant and the founder and editor of Cell Agri, a news and market insight startup focusing on the future of food with cellular agriculture. Cell Agri provides the latest updates and insights on a range of topics and trends relating to cellular agriculture field. Cell Agri's platform also tracks all the major and upcoming players in the field, providing them with the ability to post share their latest news and job openings. Ahmed is the co-founder and member of the board of directors of Cellular Agriculture Canada, a non-profit organization advancing and promoting the cellular agriculture industry in Canada. Ahmed has previously spoken about cellular agriculture and leading food tech conferences around the world, including in Canada, England, Singapore and the United States. Ahmed first learned about cellular agriculture while studying at McGill University in Montreal, Canada. Ahmed, welcome to the show. I'm so glad you can make it. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. I'm glad you can make it and it's great to have you here. So I've been following your work. I've been getting the e-books and the reports. I was at the recent Asia Summit that you held, Cellular Agriculture Asia Summit, which was in May of this year, fabulous event, fabulous speakers and the leaders from the Cell Ag industry. They're talking and giving us really in-depth insights of what's going on. As you know, the pandemic and all the craziness, other craziness that we've seen in this past 15 plus months, hopefully that we're emerging out of it has had a real big impact on food and protein and agriculture and many other things during this crazy time. And I want to know, how have you weathered this crazy time? And did you see any new models emerge or any new insights that you're saying, wow, this is really a good solution in times when we're facing a pandemic or food issues or anything that was of interest that emerged for you? And how did you weather the time? Are you okay? Did you make it through? Are you emerging stronger? Thanks, Mark. Yeah, 2020 was certainly an unprecedented time in terms of the pandemic and it's devastating impact around the world, but I've been very fortunate. I've been here in Dubai with my family. Personally, my plan was to be a bit more remote with my work in 2020. That wasn't able to happen. But overall, very fortunate on how things have turned out for my family and on my side. Looking at the bigger food picture, I think the pandemic has brought up a lot of questions in terms of how do we get our food currently? How does our current food supply chain look like? And also brought the conversation up on the food security side for many. For many in the US and Canada, for example, it was the first time they saw empty grocery store shelves. The whole question about how can we improve the resiliency in our food supply chain emerge then through that a lot more interest in future food technologies, including cell agriculture in the process. I'm so glad that you saw that as well. I was seeing many different things, good, bad, and ugly coming out of this. And luckily, we were really at the cusp of a lot of different things. So 2020, the UN General Secretary Antonio Gateros came out says we're going to have the UN food system summit. And because of the pandemic, that kind of got delayed until this year. Well, this year we have the pre-summit and the main summit and really the focus on food and how our food systems are broken and the many things that needed to be addressed where alternative and alternative proteins and the big factor in that and cellular agriculture is a factor in that really is still kind of emerging as a discussion on international stage. What alternatives, what innovations and things are coming up that we should be looking at to help fix our food systems to not only produce enough food in the future, but also maybe do things that produce food without harm to human health and our environment. I'm really excited to have you here because you are one of the wizards and experts in this area and you made lots of focus in what you do to be very knowledgeable and have your finger on the pulse of what are the industries going, what's emerging, what are the myths and the controversies. And you publish a bunch of different things. So I'll kind of look for the listeners. I'll let them know about that is you do an investment report on your website about how the industry is receiving investments, which is a good indicator of growth and what the trends are and things like that. You do a five day guided course specifically for those who need more knowledge and kind of what's this all about and how to understand it, which is as fabulous that you do, but the real pinnacle that has drawn me and I would say probably most of our listeners are those who are interested in the space is your wonderful ebook which is on cellular agriculture and it's basically the A to Z compendium and it's a it's really a guide for I mean, it's probably not doing it justice to say sell ag for dummies so to say but it's, it's really a beautiful guide to this list of what to understand what are the myths, what are the controversies, how to understand it, who are the players in the system, what is the technology and you just list this so nicely, you give us an introductory to biology. And I was lucky enough to get the 2021 report which just came out in May and read that around the same time I attended your event that the Asia summit, which which was beautiful, and I want you to kind of tell us more about the guide and how we should understand it and why you decided to come out with this and words developing and where it's going. Thank you for those kind words mark really appreciate it gets the story of how the ebook came about is very similar to the sort of how even sell agree began. I personally about the field back in 2017 and I'm back on cell biology and I was blown away blown away by the whole concept of how this of this field and how it could have both implications for our future food system and our environmental sustainability as a whole. But at the time I was having a problem. There was no one stop research that had all the latest news insights job opportunities or even investment reports on what was going on in the field. And that's a saga began to be a one stop platform for people come to learn, literally anything and everything about still agriculture, what it is and how it works with who are some of the different players in the field and what are different opportunities and insights to get involved involved to help further raise awareness for the field. I first published the ebook in 2019. As like you mentioned an in depth introduction to the soccer culture field, giving an overview of how it works, why does it feel even matter and some of the challenges and controversy for the fields to move forward. So that's, that was, that was originally the idea of that. But as opposed to just one ebook, it feels changing so much each year that we have to update every year to help keep keep our readers updated with what's going on to help them understand what not just what this field is but also why it's important to move forward for our future food system. That's great and we're going to go into a little a few additional points that are covered in there but I don't really want to. I don't want to give it all away I would like people to go to your website and signed up for, you know, either the email course or kind of the five day course on the deep dive or to download the ebook or somehow get involved with you. And to get more wisdom and information on that that's really factual and unbiased so you, you really represent the good bad and ugly and everyone in the field. No matter what and there's no bias and excuse me prejudice on any of that. Thanks, Mark, which which I really, I really like and as important for to remain unbiased in the industry and get the facts so that we can make our own decisions on on where it's going. You also became a media partner which is fairly recent for the new food conference which is put on by pro veg and pro veg and pro veg and even even good food Institute will really when they started which are also in some respects kind of newer organizations very vegan based you know no animal cruelty. Beyond vegetarian really vegan, no animals at all. And as I've seen them develop over the years that they all have really come to even embrace in some respects the cell agriculture movement and alters because it's non evasive for animals and it doesn't harm or kill animals. There are some methods that that we'll discuss in a bit that that are probably not so good for animals, and they're non GMO and many other great things that that most people don't understand and so. The reason I bring that out was because really that's where I want to address the first kind of questions is food is something that's a global citizen, it's for everybody in the world and our basic resource and so I want to ask, how do you feel about global citizenship global trade food and products and how would you feel about a world without borders and nations and divisions of humanity one from another and the reason I asked that is because there are a few things that are global citizens. One is food, air, water, species, you know animals, and definitely the COVID, you know the crisis the pandemic it was a global citizen from the get going grew exponentially. And so what are your feelings towards this and then let's once you answer that I want to get more into some of the myths and misconceptions around cell ag. I have a great idea, food is a global citizen. I never thought of it that way but absolutely right people all around the world they share their own culture and almost their own identity to the food that they have and the food that they bring around the world. So definitely a key part of identity and we're creating a global food system we get fruits fruit and vegetables from all over the world right now. In the global supermarket you have foods that are on the other half of the world which is a highlight of how our food system has really improved over the past decades to be what it is today. That same extent, when it comes to future food technologies and helping support our global food system and keeping food for global citizenship. We need to have food novel food tech companies and players and we're from all around the world to make sure that different food cultures are are expressed and shown in these new technologies to make sure that we keep this idea of food being part of our global food being a global citizen, and how and keep that going. Well, the kind of the controversy that was was there before for vegans or those who are very animal rights is that that there was animal cruelty occurring that the practices were were not that good and in the cell agriculture. And I can work the and I cave out at this in the beginning cell agriculture is actually non evasive. It's GMO so it's not, it's not GMO no no genetic modification can even be fallen into that category and if it's done with the right productions without greenhouse gas emissions in the production process. It can be very good for human health and the environment is producing the same type of protein and and products that we would get from slaughtering animals but in a much different way and it's really a different version it's not really considered a high process food because there's a lot of negative additives and negative stuff it's sometimes there, but there is one point that has kind of a dual edged knife to it or a dual edged sword to it and I want you to address that and that is the fetal bullvine serum, and that's always something that's as well that's bad for for the animal to extract that and and happens to birthing animals. Can you tell us more about that and and what the debate and discussions and how to understand that is. Yeah, sure. Before answering that, I think let's take a step back step back for the listeners who are learning about agriculture for the first time. Yeah, yeah cell agriculture is the field of producing animal products like meat, dairy and even products like leather directly from cells instead of raising animals for those exact same products. So instead of raising let's say a cow from birth for the meat, dairy and leather, you can take cells and train those cells to produce the exact same products. One of the products that we can make this agriculture is meat and one and the way that and to keep it brief the way that simply works that you take a biopsy a small injection from an animal interest, let's say a cow for the time being, and you and from that biopsy various types of cells in that called stem cells, and those are cells that have the ability to divide into more cells as well as special as in differentiate into becoming different types of cells let's say muscle cells and fat cells and other types of cells you find within meat product. So those stem cells are put into a nutrient broth, a nutrient formulation called the cell culture media, and at scale, these stem cells and the cell culture media formulation would be in a large bioreactor think brewery tank, and the output of that would be a cell cultured meat product or what I call cell based meat. Now, one of the main ingredients that's going to be required into producing cell based meat at scale is the cell culture media formulation. And that entirely contains and that process essentially contains everything the cells will need to survive essentially making them think they're still inside the body of the animal, the vitamins the nutrients the hormones the growth factors, essentially everything. Currently at the lab bench scale for many in the bio research area. So, an ingredient called the fetal bovine serum is used to help add all those nutrients that cells would need in the research environment to grow and thrive. One of the confers and challenges for the cell agriculture ecosystem, if one of the goals is to entirely remove animals from the food process is to use that using reading because as a name suggests, it's taken from the fetal cup, the fetal a fetal cough of a cow, usually during this time of slaughter of the mother cow. And so that's a challenge for the field. Along with the animal welfare side of that, one of the major challenges of using FBS is the cost point of it. FBS comes in small doses and it's pretty expensive and the, and the consistency and quality varies from batch to batch, such a large production facility that could be a problem. One of the examples of this is the idea back in 2019 I was in Singapore at the time when a company that called Shiock meets showcase the first ever cell based shrimp dumplings. They showcased about eight dumplings at the time and and those eight dumplings cost over $5,000 to produce just eight of them. And according to the Shiock meet team at the time the majority of that cost was a self culture media permission because for that small scale they had to use FBS. At the time they stated that if they were able to find an affordable and animal free self culture media formulation alternative that cost could drop all the way from $5,000 all the way down to $50. That's a big change. So that's why a lot of companies right now are looking to get rid of the FBS and the process and make it animal free so it's also be more affordable to scale production as well. Controversy around that. Oh, absolutely. The fetal bovine firm FBS is as interesting because I didn't know that that for the shrimp the Shiock meets does seafood and crustaceans are basically shellfish right now that they use a beef fetal bovine firm to make a seafood so to say, which is very interesting to know. The seafood started to cut you off there but there's not that's been much research done on the stem cell biology of seafood animals. So initially, if you had to find a cell culture media formulation. I think FBS may have been used at that very initial stage, not because it's the best one but because there's no other alternative out there. So now it's more companies are exploring seafood I'm sure companies are going to figure out what's the best alternative to use for seafood specifically that's more that's animal free and also inexpensive and just optimal for seafood cells. Along with that process so when you do the scaffolding when you grow when you kind of do the serum and whatever type of serum or broth that you're talking about the growth medium to feed those cells. There's a lot of difference on the time and the process that that takes and I'm an advisor for a left farms that has done the first cell agriculture steak full grown steak and and they're doing it in about three weeks. And it's still on the R&D and lab phase. But what are you what are you seeing and and others around for time frames on that lab process and and is there really more struggles or things that are emerging as far as what is the growth medium were they going to get those nutrients and things to feed the cells from can you tell us a little bit more about that. Yeah, sure. So, like you said, some some companies are already have come out stating they, their cells can double in about three weeks time, which is, which I think is pretty great actually compared to, I mean for you compared to raising a whole animal from for many years, it's a lot more efficient already off the bat. When it comes to these companies and this and scaling and making the product process more efficient, they're going to be a lot of scaling challenges along the way, moving from that lab bench scale to all the way to commercial production. And while it's the cell tells me this formulation is going to be a major aspect of that in terms of how can we encourage cells to how can we feed ourselves more efficiently and make encourage them to grow grow as much as optimally as they possibly can. And I think that's one of the major things companies look at when they look when they look to scale, ideally the first find those those cells from the animal of interest that can ideally become immortalized and continue to replicate to become more and more cells. Almost, almost, almost to think of like an opinionated sort of source of meat, and then go those in a cell culture media formulation at scale you mean you'll require 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of leaders of the cell culture media formulation. So to make sure that one it's affordable to it's the best one out there. And if you if you haven't even a large bioreactor how are you going to make sure that you add their inputs and remove the out the waste products as well to make sure that the cells are growing in a healthy safe environment to be to be the best optimal outcome. So when it comes to scaling that's me, those are two of the main challenges. I touched on this idea of bioreactor technology as well. Some companies in the field talked about bioreactor to the scale of like 20,000 liter plus. And while that works fine for breweries and like brewery vats, those aren't animal cells, particularly those are yeast cells and other microorganisms, animal cells are a lot more sensitive. So how would those cells be able to grow in such large vats would would be good for them with the even survive. These are some of the challenges that field definitely needs to address and change the scaling. And that's one of the many factors that they're going to be looking towards. That's amazing. Do you. Can you actually address the GMO aspect of that and how we can better understand that so that there to clear up any misconceptions some people how can it be GMO and all this and it's so lag. Okay. So, GMO stands for genetic modified organism. And it's essentially the science of adding the DNA or gene of interest from one organism to another organism to produce a specific outcome, whether protein of interest, or for let's say crops enhance the enhanced the output of it. Let's do cellular agriculture, I'll say this right away for cell based meat companies all stated they're not looking to modify the cells, the end product will not be a genetic modified organism. So that's off the bat, but having said that, we look at the bigger picture of food technology and communications around that. There are a lot of lessons that companies using cellular agriculture to produce food products and learn from the mistakes of when GMO products came to market. Monsanto. You said it. When those products when Monsanto first came to market with their gently modified seeds to help farmers, they did not take it they did not believe it was their responsibility to communicate to the wider public what the technology is, or how it works almost almost importantly, why? Why are they doing this to their food system. And their mind all they had to do was sell to food producers and that was the end for them. And the honest was on them to communicate to the public. But that never happened. And what emerged was this this public with a wide a wide gap of public knowledge on this novel food technology at the time. Is it safe? What is it? Can it be to my kids? And most importantly, why? Why science and companies looking to do this? Why are they looking to add this to our food system? And what emerged was a public that distressed this technology, especially because other actors with other vested interests came in and filled the public knowledge with other information. And because of that, I think in the big picture we still live in an anti GMO era, because of that. So some of these in this cell agriculture field need to do is help is help make sure the community right away, not just how the products are made, not the 123 steps on how we can take a cell and make it into meat. But also this idea of why, why are companies looking to do this, why are scientists so excited about the idea of applying cutting edge cell biology into the food sector. We're looking into this. And from what service have been done in the past, if you explain to the public, the why from the environmental sustainability aspects by requiring less resources than conventional animal agriculture for the same products to the potential public health implications of using the clean and sterile environment of using cells directly, people are more understanding and understand, ah, this is why. All right, if this is done appropriately and regulated appropriately, I would be open to it. It's all about that communications and that idea of radical transparency to make sure that people understand that food system. I like to say context is everything and with food it matters so much more. Because it's a lot of people don't believe it or not don't want to put innovation in their mouth they want to understand it for first and how it works and even though we will call it an innovation innovation or alternate protein or whatever we choose to label it, then they're like, Well, that's something I just don't understand. Please clarify and why and how and that communication is so vital. So we can make that connection on how we associate our life and how our interaction with with food is usually not one that even though a lot of foods, especially high process foods all start in the lab. In some respects and mixing of flavors and aromas and many other things. It's just this other reporting you're very good through your ebook to the communication non bias and give us all sides of the good bad and the ugly of what what is what is in needed to know to understand and so that we can make informed choices on how we go forward and how we feel about those things. And that and that's really a big aspect of what you do and I don't know if you want to talk a little bit more about the way you believe that the communication needs to occur or move forward in the industry, because that's what you do you're kind of in some respects a media partner not just as a conferences but in the book and educating people on that communication strategy. Yeah, sure. So, from, from my, from my viewpoint, I think communications one of the most important things that this agriculture field will need to do to succeed in the, in the long run. We can, we can address all the technical challenges from you know the cell lines to the cell culture media formulation to get to get to be seen by recta technologies and even scaffolding. But ultimately at the end of the day, if you don't communicate this properly to consumers, they're not going to buy it and ultimately comes down to public and public and consumer perception at the end of the day. I think that's why it's important that you have players like so I agree out there communicating. This is what's currently happening in the field. This is the reality that this is the aim but we're not there yet and how can we ensure that we hold everyone accountable to make sure that they're working on addressing these challenges to improve our food system. So, yeah, we do, we do do a lot of communications, and that helps keep everyone up to date with the latest news on what these companies are actually doing on to advance their mission, as well as what other companies in the field are doing as well to help support grow the field overall. Maybe you could help with a little bit more understanding so there's a lot of terms because, because it's an academic field or it's also a trade. There are certain specific languages towards towards cellular agriculture some of the terms we've heard is sell ag, we've heard of culture meat we've heard in vitro meat or in Germany it's called the vitro flash which to me is like oh that seems like something similar to baby making or implanting something that seems to me kind of weird that term. Maybe you can help us with some of those definitions you know what's out there and are they different or are they basically saying all the same things those are just emerging terms. I've entered the German term before that's really interesting. Is that a popular term being used in Germany. In Germany it's really still called in vitro flash which flash is meat but it's really a big thing here and to me it. And it seems like in vitro fertilization what what someone would go through if they want to have a baby so. Yeah, that does not sound very appetizing. I just want to make a remark there are so many different terms that just being that have been used in the past and are currently being used by different sectors in terms of the communication side as well. So historically, open the term and be, let's say prior to, honestly, before prior to 2013 the the academic community user phrase in vitro meat to explore the idea. Then they realized the idea of self culture meat may be more accurate because they're self culturing the cells to become a meat product. And for the longest time culture meat became the known phrase that's using academia and to this day when generally groups talk about the academic side of this field they say cultured meat. And while academia is going up is pursuing this field in that in the research side, they are companies and other players that are merged looking at the field in a different lens the more commercial the more business side and cultured meat was very descriptive doesn't appeal to the consumer side as much or to the public communication side of the benefits of this of using cell culture technology. So a lot of times I've been using that have been used that have been thrown around clean meat was popular for a little while but I'm glad that we moved on from that cultivated meat has been used as well as on so laggy we use the phrase cell based meat as well. So this comes to the government regulation side, lot to turn to terms have been used a lot cultured meat and cell based meat. And if that's it, if that's a term regularly is going to use to approve this field. So I guess, sorry, using that phrase as well. Currently cell based meat, having said that if, if future research shows that the field the term cultivated meat or even something like cell cultivated emerges popular. So that could be something the whole field may adopt in the future, if that's consistent, and it's the best chance to use but for the time being we have cultured meat we have cultivated meat and from some perspective cell based meat as well. The original times that these cell based meats have come out are almost kind of a novelty experience and very much promoted but also the cost of that initial tasting or that initial production is just enormous it's outrageous and is something more like it. It's almost comparable to what we're going through in the space race with Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos he just sold I think it was 28 million or something like that, a ticket to ride along on his blue origin just to go up to outer space. And in some respects food obviously is a thank goodness not in the millions but it's tickling the surface of a very expensive out there for these initial tastings or production because it's not a scale because it's still in this novelty space to some and that's kind of where I want to make a distinction and maybe have you bring something more out on that. So in the USDA the Food and Drug Administration as well as well as the European food standards in that Europe it's called a novel food and so to get permitting to produce that you're selling it on the market, you need this novel food permit and maybe you could tell us why they throw it in that range and also discuss the USDA and the FDA and who's kind of over the authority of regulating this but also who's the one who's saying, Okay, now it's free to go on the market and everybody can have it it's safe and we're regulating it. And why does it fall under novel what does that mean, is it because of the novelty like I mentioned on the high price, or how do we understand that. Sure. Before going to the regulation side mentioned the idea of the high prices and you're right. In 2013, Dutch scientist Dr. Mark Posse and his team showcased the first ever labrion beef beef burger at the cost of over $300,000 for just one for just one cell grown beef patty. And while that's certainly an astronomical price then the field is is developing and is moving forward at the end of 2020. Under the idea of regulation Singapore became the first country to give regulatory approval for the sale of cell culture meat and one the one company eat just and it's subsidiary good meat. So the first cell culture chicken nugget in that country. $300,000 for one beef patty will come down to $23 for one small chicken nugget. So it's still expensive for chicken nugget but compared to $300,000 just seven years earlier, the field is definitely moving the right direction in terms of the cost side to be less sky high, so to speak. So on the regulation side, I'll touch on Singapore in a bit but you're right in the EU cell culture meat and I think overall some style agriculture food products in general will be regulated under the novel food directive. One of the reasons why it's so culture meat generally falls under that is it's generally the novelty of the concept of growing meat products directly from cells. There are new cells to grow medicines and some food ingredients, but never to grow actual meat, whereas the actual cell is part of the end product per se. So to that lens, this is a brand new concept that hasn't been done before. So I think that's why cell culture meat generally falls under the novelty aspect and in the EU that's how cell based me products will be regulated in the US. And such a simple answer. It's actually been quite, it's actually been quite interesting from 2018 in 2018, the US Department of Agriculture is the USDA and the Food and Drug Administration the FDA have both been almost arguing about who would have jurisdiction over this field. In 2018 both the USDA and FDA both came out saying we have jurisdiction over this field. And that went back and forth for a little while until end of 2018. So the framework came together for the first time, both the USDA and FDA will be regulating cell culture meat together. And that's a bit unprecedented in the US. There's been no time before where both the USDA and the FDA have joint active field. And it almost makes sense. The USDA is specifically responsible for the regulation of meat, dairy and eggs, and also catfish, and FDA is responsible for the regulation of cell culture products, as well as other food products, including most seafoods. So what happens if you're having a product that's made from cell cultures but it's a meat product. How do you, how do you get the best of both departments. And that's what we've gotten a joint regulatory framework involving both the USDA and the FDA. In 2018 a framework came out announcing that the FDA will be in charge of regulating the first parts of cell of cell culture meat up until what you would call the harvest age. And after that point in time the USDA would be regulating it like they would regulate most meat production. So that's what the regulation is going to look like in the US. Since that basic framework came out in 2019 that has not been much more of an update from their side. Hopefully we'll hear more soon about what this what the next step would look like for a detailed regulatory system for cell culture meat. At the same time, while this conversation has been happening in the US and Europe, Singapore and the other side of the world has been working, has been working for the last two years and finally got the own regulatory framework out for cell based meat. And after working with the company each just for more than two years on, evaluating the safety and working with different experts around the world to make sure that this is safely, they can be safely done and regulated appropriately. They came up with their own framework. And for that reason, Sincors becoming a leading food tech hub around the world where many many cell based meat companies actually are looking at coming to Singapore that's more alienation as the Asia hub to launch their first product and expand expand from there. Phenomenal. I love that. Yeah, that's absolutely amazing. And I really want to also dive dive. Well, I don't know if we want to do that. I don't know if we want to dive more into the regulatory, but that's really been emerging. There has been some things that have happened just in this last two, two years that have been really interesting. There was a huge controversy about using the term meat. And that and then been some lawsuits and so not only pro veg but also good food Institute have gotten involved in some lawsuits and litigation and trying to work with the governments and those organizations to to combat a bit against that. So they can't call sell ag meat or can you can call it that and then on by vice versa and I know this isn't sell ag but it's tied to persistent fermentation and tied to the animal agriculture is the milk industry. There was a big thing that pro veg really played a big part in as well around the term using milk on plant based products and things like that and so and that also falls into this novel but also into these regulatory areas. I don't know if you want to tell tell us a little bit of how that's a merchant and what's come out is it allowed to be called meat and is it allowed to be called milk and and maybe something like that if that plays into to what's been going on as well. Yeah, sure. So, along with the regulation side of proving of establishing a framework of how can we produce cell based meat that is considered that is safely done. Another aspect of the regulatory framework is going to be the labeling aspect. What's the product is done. What is it going to be called and it's actually been interesting that in the US that's been a major that's been a major challenge usually from beef and cattleman associations across across the country there, stating that both plant based products as well cell agriculture products cannot use to him that can be reserved for traditional meat products. That's specifically the term meat. And that, I think that'll be interesting conversation for how regulars look at our food system moving forward frankly, traditionally we've. The meat is traditionally defined as the idea of flesh derived from the carcass of an animal. And that's just a definition because that's how we've always gotten me. You have to get from the carcass of an animal. But what if in the future we can make the exact same meat, so that you look at it under the microscope is exact same muscle cells fat cells connected issue exactly the same exact same nutrient profile, if not better, the same taste and same texture with the exact same meat product without requiring the, without requiring that flesh to be derived from a carcass, can you still call it meat. Also in the cell agriculture field states believe believe we can, and therefore it is meat. And so that's going to be interesting conversation moving forward for the right on the regulatory labeling side. I believe the phrase of using right now is cultured me specifically so that's sort of a lot of user term meat there. So, I'm sorry culture meat side that that'll be a question and on the dairy side that I cannot comment on that I'm not, I'm not aware of that side but it will be important for them. If you can make the exact same dairy milk without without few proteins let's say like lactose or sugars like lactose, how can you still call it milk it's an exact same product just just about recording the calendar process. Yeah, there's some pretty big lobbyists and organizations who are really worried about their loss on on those things and and the there was a big through pro veg and many others who were really trying to combat some of the EU regulation and regulation in the States around whether you could call it milk and things like that many had already switched like only to calling it something else and say no non milk or no not milk and things like that. And that that battle has been finally one because the consistency and the makeup and the things are very similar and it's a different form of precision fermentation so there's some wonderful things that are happening around the world during a time of lockdown and pandemic and craziness because food is such a vital part of our life and and it's really the biggest basic need energy source for humanity and we've given up a lot of that wisdom and knowledge and who produces our food to a few few handful or maybe 10 big producers in the world who control about 78% of all our brands and food products and that's not very diverse system but it's also not a very food safety secure system that that is long term for the future and so now more people are really thinking how can we fix and change that and that really comes to probably my last deep technical question for you as there's this and it's still a very hard one to address and talk about but I believe you have some insights and knowledge over that and that's the one of farmers losing their jobs or farmers and how that transition from from ranchers to farmers and animal agriculture in general how this new cellular agriculture plays into that and and what you're seeing emerging I know from those who I work with in the space they're really concerned about not working with the farmers and working with good practices not taking any jobs away not losing sources of income and livelihood but to hybrid model might not be the right way but coming up with other ways to work and see that livelihood thrive and flourish and dispelling the mess of what they want to do or play the part in the industry and I'd love to hear your viewpoints on what you've seen. Yeah, how do you talk about that if that's a really interesting area to get into one of the key socio economic challenges this agriculture field will need to address is the impact of its technology that will have on farmers across across the world. If you're producing food products directly from cells, what would that mean to the conventional animal agriculture supply chain. While that's not necessarily a question that companies in this field, or any, or traditionally in any disruptive industry really quite ask is this important one that has important political and regulatory implications, for example, our past idea about the labeling question that that relates directly with this with this topic as well. How, how can politicians and, and these decision makers make decisions that could help create our future food system more sustainably, but impacts the current that current constituents, for example, it's a question that has a lot of implications. So far when it comes to what companies are actually discussing. Some companies have mentioned the idea that if we can scale technology to the point where we can make small bioreactors that are that can produce a product that's affordable. How about we just distribute these two farmers then, instead of raising cattle they can just work bioreactors to produce the same meat like they always would do. It's not a big if on kind of the technology level if we can start scaling big we can scale out and make it sound affordable product similar to what meat is currently costs, because otherwise that could be a challenge if people if it's too costly. What people are exploring is the idea of helping create a supply chain around conventional farm and agriculture farmers to today. Cell lines are constantly are may likely may constantly be required if, if, if companies cannot find a way to make more to long term cell lines and keeping farmers and constantly working with farmers to make sure that they get the right quality cells from the right quality animals. So I think to make sure that they're still in the supply chain. Another interesting idea that could be used is finding ways to include farmers that grow crops for animal feed and will feed is a big industry by itself. So what if we could convert those farmers that work on raising crops for animal feed, but but but train them to become farmers that grow crops for the cell culture media formulation, essentially the feed for cell culture meat cells. So here, some companies are looking into the idea of growth of growing the ingredients that cell culture meat would need directly from in crops. So if that is viable, that could have major implications of helping transform easily transform conventional crop farmers into farmers are going the same crops but for the cell culture media side instead. So a lot of different ideas of how to include conventional and agriculture farmers in the future food supply chain. Having said that at the same time, I don't think that and agriculture really going anywhere anytime soon in the future will have an agriculture conventional agriculture along with some good culture and as well as alternative proteins. So this will be part of future food system where we have a lot of different choices. So, while this may impact the market share per se and conventional animal meat. I don't think it'll entirely disrupt the whole industry that it all goes away tomorrow. I don't think that's realistic. Can you tell us or maybe tickle the future a lot a little bit for us you don't have a magic ball but if you can maybe touch on what you believe we will be seeing in the future and maybe also some products what are the next things that will be seeing come out on the market and maybe give us some little insights just your wisdom and what you're working on and what you're seeing moving in the industry and maybe to watch or prepare for big thing with with humanity in general is is timelines we don't understand how our world is growing exponentially and how and when things will be released and how quickly that could occur or how slowly that could occur and we tend to always air and say oh that's going to be much longer but look today we're sending people to to space privately and when we're having autonomous vehicles. How, how is that insight in that perspective, can you give us that insight and maybe what what to look for in those products. Sure thing. So in terms of the cell agriculture field and back moving forward. We already at the end of 2020 we saw the first commercial launch of a self cultured meat product in Singapore. The companies have come out stating that they aim to have their own cell culture meat product also launched either in the US or even in Singapore themselves so if that can happen before the end of 2021. That would be a big deal. In terms of how people to look at this idea like like you mentioned time goes by faster or then we imagine the first cell culture meat company came out in 2015. And in 2020 the first product has come to market in Singapore that's phenomenally fast for brand new ecosystem. This field is moving really fast in that way from not having a regulatory system framework to having one announced a few years ago to possibly the first product in Singapore from Singapore now in the US possibly by the end of 2021. That would be a big big deal pending regulatory approval that's good that's going to be that's going to be a key and important step to make sure this is done properly. In terms of the field overall moving forward beyond just product launches. I think we can see a lot more of these conventional food and agriculture companies look into cellular agriculture. In terms of either. In mostly terms of partnerships. When you look at some of these major companies in the traditional food, agriculture and even meat sectors. They have a lot of expertise that can help companies in this novel field scale faster and reach wide distributions than they would currently be able to do by themselves. And these would help to keep them relevant in the future food supply chain by partnering with some of these companies as well. That also means an interesting opportunity of possibly some pharmaceutical or even life science companies, partnering with some of these cell based meat companies and providing them some of the technical expertise that they may need to scale to the next level. And if that does happen, what would be the implications of having pharmaceutical and life science companies being involved in our food system that could possibly to a future where food becomes medicine. A lot of potential implications that could happen out of that that we don't know just yet, but it will likely happen to help accelerate the field to the next level. And you mentioned the idea of space again I think that it's one wrap up with almost one of those stories about how the field has come full circle. The first idea of cell culture meat came out from the NASA supported research paper back in the early 2000s about growing goldfish meat for potential application of astronauts growing and eating out of space for long for long space missions. And that paper stemmed interest from some people interested in the idea of the field that launched the first nonprofit focused on cell agriculture, New Harvest. And through that nonprofit New Harvest, the first connections that came afterwards the first cell culture meat burger prototype in 2013 took place. And from that this whole field has, has exploded around the world. And in 2019, in going full circle, other farms actually was a company that grew the first piece of cell based meat and outer space. It's the way this field has come a long way in a few short years, not decades just a few short years and it's really exciting to see what the field moving forward. It's amazing and it's so true so we're at the cusp of sustainability and the Paris agreement right now that we have before the decade is out so nine years before we need to reach the Paris agreement and the sustainable development goals, which is similar to the situation that John F Kennedy was in when he announced the Congress asking for money it says we're going to put men on the moon. We've also only had a decade to do that. There have been no official announcements from the cell ag industry or the agriculture food and beverage industry that you know okay before this decade is out, but all the movement. Sorry, Mark, you froze over there for me I didn't hear this last question you're back right now. Okay. There have been no initial announcements from the cell agriculture industry or the agriculture food and beverage industry that says, before this decade is out, we will fix our food systems and come up with these new products for the future and the new solutions on how our system works. But we do have those two examples that we're currently in. One was JFK go or that we were in going to the moon and currently with the sustainable development goals. But because food is our basic resource and the trends that we're seeing. I believe we will do it in a decade and we will see some amazing changes in these field. I hope for the better one that is more regenerative and local and healthy. Really if we can fix human health and human suffering, which is a food issue. We're going to do a lot to to end up on our environmental goals and repair our global grand challenges. The only announcement that I would say has come close was 2020 when UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres announced the food system summit so to step in the right direction it's also tied with the sustainable development goals which has the deadline of 2030 which is before the decade is out so maybe we could look at it as that and players from all over the world are coming together to participate in these events and to talk about food and I I can see it kind of this overview perspective and those companies that I talk about our talk to in this space they're all talking sustainability on their tongues and how can we do the environment to produce in a way that doesn't harm animals but also harm our environment and fixes these things so I'm very optimistic that we're we're going to have some wonderful things come and emerge and move forward in that how do you feel about this and all your work is as far as that you do how do you feel about sustainability and and could you answer the question what you're going to do before this decade is out I will do what I like that so in terms of this idea of sustainability I think what ultimately our global population is going to be closer to 10 billion people between 9 and 11 billion people by the year 2050 we're going to need to find what many more ways to produce a lot more food than we currently do in a more sustainable manner to able to meet that growing demand that without depleting more resources that have that you're already consuming to produce food now technologies like agriculture and other alternative proteins and now technologies are going to be part of that solution system that I imagine many more food and agriculture companies are going to adopt to be more sustainable in terms of what I'm looking to do to help to help improve the sustainability of the world, I will advocate for still agriculture and make sure it's and hope for it to be done correctly to help create a sustainable future food system for everyone the last two questions about your ebook and kind of about what you do and and and about cell Agri in general are that I would like you to address and why they're important and why you've decided to offer these and kind of a little bit more what they're about. The investment reported just like why why that's important why should we look at that what does that tell us and when you bring that out every year and how how is that going how is the resonance and then the second is really why did you start offering the five day guided course and what is that about and how can we signed up and what does it cost and tell us a little bit more about those two things please. So, I can start with the five day course after launching the 2020 edition of the cell Agri introduction to cell agriculture ebook. Some of the feedback I received was it's a bit too dense or in depth of a resource for someone who is brand new to cell agriculture to get a primer to the field. And that's how the idea of the five day guided course came out for five days, we will send you an email once a day to your to your inbox, breaking down a basic key concept, a simple but key concept behind the cell agriculture field, and that'll help you that that'll help the individual get into the idea of what this field is why it matters and what what what else can I do get involved in this field. And essentially get them into the idea of what is cell agriculture and they're still interested then they can dive into a deeper read deeper read like this Agri ebook. And if they're still interested after that so I do has the first jobs for dedicated to the wider cell agriculture fields it's a so they can get involved, even through that, essentially trying to create a virtual ecosystem around the field. And hopefully that that five day guided course and help people sign up for free and learn more about the field. Let's talk about the investment report. One of the reasons why the field has done so well in the last five years is through the number of investments coming into the field. Up to this point in time, most investments have come from more mission aligned investors, they're looking at making a future food system that is animal free. And they still get get to where it is at to this point, essentially to get to the what to get to the next level with really the wider range of investors come to this field and one of the goals of the salami investment reports series is to help more investors and those type of people learn about this agriculture field and figure out opportunities for them to get involved in as well to one support the field and and to understand what's going on as the field moves forward. So the series to to that extent is broken down into two sections. One, it breaks down how as of summer 2020 over $1 billion has now been invested into the cell agriculture food ecosystem, a billion dollars. A few years ago this field didn't even exist. So the first part of that report series breaks down how a billion dollars have been invested into the food ecosystem, as of the end of May 2021 for contact is now $1.5 billion. The second part of the field is growing. And that just breaks down the different company profile as well as how investments have gone into the field and what what opportunities are different investors to get involved to help further grow the field. And the second part of the report series breaks down the cell agriculture supply chain. We talked about it earlier, how do we move from lab bench scale already commercial production. That's a lot of key challenges and key pain points there and if investors are interested, there are a lot of opportunities that again involved in the field as well. And so that part of the report series breaks down the key pain points, why they important and potential startups or companies that could even enter the ecosystem or today and help address those key pain points to move us from that lab bench scale all the way to commercial production. So that's that was the goal behind the celebrity investment report series. It was launched at the end of 2020 and we'll be launching updates to that one soon. That's amazing. I only have four more questions for you and this this next one is absolutely the hardest that you'll have today and then then you can wipe your brow and quit sweating. But here's, here's, yeah, exactly. The burning question WTF and it's not the swear word, although you might have said that during this crazy time it's, what's the futures, what's the future, and somehow you've kind of tickled it already. But for you, what's the future. When it comes to our food system, I think the future is going to be full of full of choices and full of options for everyone and that makes it really exciting. You could, if still agriculture comes commercially viable and you have lots of products on the market, along with other alternatives like plant based or fungi based as well as conventional animal animal based products. So we're going to have a wide range of options available to them. And, and in that effect, all these products will be competing with each other to be more sustainable and better and healthier for everyone. So I think we're going to have a welcome with a food system in the future that is a lot more sustainable and full of more options for consumers. Like you said, I touch on this idea that because of a growing demand for food and more limited resources than before, more companies as well would be looking for options to make our food system more sustainable from general food industries to wider agriculture industries as well to make sure we can sustainably farm as how we, how we do and find other technology to help us further enhance to the next level to make sure we have enough food to feed 10 billion people by the year 2050. I think that's that's how our future system system is going to look like looking moving forward. And in a personal note, I'm looking forward to a self culture chicken thick as well one day. Yeah, that's great. That's great. The last three questions are for my listeners really so that they can get a little bit more insight on how they can move forward young innovators can go forward in this field. If there was one message that you could depart to our listeners as a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change their life. What would it be your message. What one message. I'll give you a couple so you can do whatever you feel best about. I think the idea that when it comes to the future of food, it is how we build it. That's what that's so exciting. If you want to build a more sustainable future food system, it can be done. And we just don't need scientists, we need engineers, we need, we need people who understand the business of this, we need a whole range of talent and expertise. If you don't get involved in this future food field, but don't feel you have the science background. Don't you worry when we're going to need everyone on board to create a future food system so that it's going to be space for you to get involved. That's amazing. I say that quite a bit. It's not really about the products of the future, the brands of the future, the food types or food types of the future. It's really about how we produce the food for the future. Do we use renewable energy and battery storage and no aromas flavors preserved as sugars on and on and make sure that they're chemical and pesticide free and that they're healthy and good for humanity. I think that it's virtually impossible to have a bad tasting product a bad product for human health and a bad product that has a big environmental impact and so I like that answer that you get. What should young innovators in your field be thinking about if they're looking for ways to make a real impact. I think in terms of making an impact. So agriculture was very, very much spoken about within the future food circles to the wider public people still aren't really aware or understand this technology in terms of that we can actually produce food products directly from cells. Alright, I think the first thing that I tell everyone is raise awareness for this field. Start writing start start sharing content or start finding ways to get involved with the field in terms of making your own groups locally or communicating to people around you about what this field is and not just how it works but again why are people looking into it. I think from that point when you start sharing some messages about that as you as you get more into the field. There'll be many more opportunities for you to help support it. The next question I have for you is what have you experienced or learn so far in your academic and professional journey that you would have loved to know from the start or I wish I would have known that. Oh wow, I wish something I wish any from the very beginning is don't be afraid to share share share your content. It doesn't matter how early on you feel the work speaks for itself. It's easier to work your work out there. It's easier to reach out to other people and get further involved in any ecosystem. Don't be afraid to put your work out there. Ahmed, thank you so much for letting us inside of your ideas. It's been a sheer pleasure to talk to you about cell agriculture and really your plethora knowledge I'm looking forward to next year's ebook coming out I'm looking forward to the 2021 investment report and I would encourage everybody to go out and go to your website we're going to put in the show note in the descriptions where they can go and where they can find you and get in touch with you and look at the works that you're providing. That's all I have for for you today unless there's something you left out or last words that you would like to depart I'm done and I really thank you. I think that was I think we covered everything. Thank you so much Mark for having me on on your show. It's been really great to talk about how how solid your culture can help build our future food system. Thank you so much. I'll mad have a wonderful day. Take care.