 Today we're going to talk about Belle Gibson. Greg, why don't you tell us about Belle and tell us about the videos you've had? Yeah, Belle Gibson is an Australian who faked cancer and who cured herself through whole foods and had an app for that and became quite the celebrity until she was discovered not to have cancer and that she had been lying the whole time. This interview is Tara, who is an interviewer for 60 minutes and she has her on the grid calling her to task for everything she lied about. All right, let's take a look. You go on Instagram in 2013 I have been healing a severe and malignant brain cancer for the past few years with natural medicine, gursin, therapy and foods. It's working for me. It is. And if any of you didn't have brain cancer. No, I didn't. Well, when I was writing that I thought that I did and I was feeling well. Yes, but even then you misrepresented what you thought was your truth, which was all a big lie. Anyway, I'm really sorry and it hurts me and I beat myself up every day for how I have hurt those who mean a lot to me. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this woman is the bastard cousin to Jodi Arias. That's all she is. You're gonna see her. She's rigid. She sits up. She's waiting for opportunity to plug in whatever it is that she perceives the person needs to get what she wants. And when it doesn't work, watch what happens to her. She starts off with that front-of-the-mouth talking that kind of kind of placating the woman she's talking to. But we don't see any of that with terror. We see disgust and disdain and this is just the beginning of it. You'll see it flowing through. She raises one eyebrow when she's talking to her, but watch that whole stony face eye-blocking. And when she goes in with the kill and ask her about the lie, you see her face like, oh, here we go. Here's where we have it. I'll just leave it at that and say, Chase, what do you got? So one thing I picked up on here was eye closure and when, when, during the conversation, her eyes shut. And we typically see this in people when it's, we don't want to hear something. And we also see it a little more often when it's it's correlated with shame or regret based on the topic that's being discussed. And as a quick pro tip, when you're defending yourself, even if you're in court, which we, most of us are trial consultants, don't dress like ski resort Barbie. You want people to identify with you. Scott, what do you got? All right. There are so many things in here people see and go, ah, this means she's lying. This means she's lying. We know she's lying. So we're really not going to focus on things that tell you she's lying because we already know she is. And if you can't tell just by looking, I don't know what to say about that. Holy smokes. Anyway, you see that when she, at the top where she does the head nod of agreement, it's like a little bobblehead thing. That's not, because she's saying the opposite when she's saying no, her head is saying yes. That's more of a confirmation nod. So what you're seeing there has nothing really to do with she's lying, but she's saying no, but she's saying yes. She's just confirming because she's trying. I think part of her believes what's going on, that she believes that's what's happening. So that's what that little micro bobblehead is about. There she said, I was feeling, which as I was feeling, we see a little expression of disgust. It's just right there in her mouth. This goes up just a little bit. It's not quite a micro expression. It's kind of small, but it's still there really big. This is a great example of somebody who is, for some reason, she's decided to do this, this interview and stay the whole time. So we're seeing somebody who is backed in a corner because there's no place for her to go because obviously she's lied. She knows the woman interviewing her, knows she lied, and she's telling her she's lying and she's agreeing she's lying as we go through this. So we're just seeing someone's brain defending this and try to go forward for their ego. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So I'm really sorry. I beat myself up every day. What you'll see from Tara there is disdain. The corner of the mouth goes up. She doesn't like her at all. She sees her as socially outcast. She shouldn't be part of the group. Clearly displays it there. One thing I will say, Chase, about that ski resort Barbie look is it means that I can read her breathing really well. So take a look at that big polo neck there. You're going to see it going up and down. What I want you to do is breathe along with that and see how you feel, okay? Because we're going to come back to that polo neck a bit later on because her breathing is going to change enough so that you're going to have a different feeling. So look at that polo neck, breathe along with it, see how you feel. We'll come back to it later on. That's what I got on that one. You go on Instagram in 2013. I have been healing a severe and malignant brain cancer for the past four years with natural medicine, gersen therapy and foods. It's working for me. It is. And if any of you didn't have brain cancer. No, I didn't. No. But when I was writing that, I thought that I did and I was feeling well. Yes, but even then you misrepresented what you thought was your truth, which was all a big lie anyway. I'm really sorry and it hurts me and I beat myself up every day for how I have hurt those who mean a lot to me. She says in 2009 she met a man called Mark Johns who told her he was an immunologist and neurologist, though no record of him exists. He had come to my home and went through a series of tests and this was dubbed integrative medicine. So he comes to your home and he does some tests on you? He does. What sort of tests? It was a box, a machine with lights on the front and that machine was apparently German technology. There's two pads, two metal pads, one that goes below the chair and one that goes behind your back and then that measures what I believe or remember to be frequencies. And what were the results? He said to me that I had a stage four brain tumor and that I had approximately four months to live. Okay, Chase, what do you got? All right, so let's talk about her language really quick. She starts off with past perfect language. I had driven to the store to pick up milk byproduct, for example. That's past perfect when I say I had done something. I had done this. It had been a long day. The interviewer brilliantly forces her back into present tense language by asking her a present tensing question and it works immediately. She then shifts from present back to past and while she's talking with that, she has uncertainty and a request for approval and then back to present moment again. So we have some timeline mix ups. So finally, the one thing I saw that deviated from her baseline was an immediate mouth closure after a statement. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so what she's trying to do here is use authority to trick us to con us into going, oh, okay, I get why this would have happened. And she uses the authority of German technology, okay, which is a classic idea of well, if it's German, then it's really good and close. I'd be conned and and anybody would accept this. So just remember that when anybody ever goes, okay, German technology, that is not a moment for you to doff your cap and go, okay, German technology, because yes, they invented the printing press and the hole punch and the MP3 player and electron microscopes. But they also invented the Grumloff, which was a gun that would shoot around corners. It didn't work very well. There's lots of German technology that's really good. And lots of German technology that's really bad. Just because somebody says German technology doesn't mean you should go, okay, stop the interview, stop the interrogation. They were using German technology. It's all cool. Greg, what do you got on this one? Well, let's take it a step further. A random doctor who's going door to door with German technology. That's the weirdest part of the whole thing. You're like, what the hell is she talking about? If you look at her baseline, if you go watch any other video, she moves her hands, she talks like a normal person, she doesn't hear, she's rigid and waiting for the opportunity to do that plug in again, like a borderline personality kind of person would at dubbed integrative medicine, her chin drops to protect her throat, her eyes squint and narrow, she shifts language to disclaim, I believe. And then she lilts up at frequencies. She does some really bad for a second there, fake to motion. And it's really, really bad. There's no lip compression. There's none of that. There's no withholding. She's just blowing out what she thinks will make you feel guilty or bad because you challenged her about this German technology. Scott, what do you got? All right. And when she starts, we can really tell if you didn't know she was lying and you just watched this one time through and came back, you'd notice every time she starts, she's lying, just ball face line. She goes to the upspeak at the end, there's a box, da, da, da, and she gets really still. And again, another thing is, and go back to the thing about illustrators, Chase, was, oh, or was it Greg, who here was talking about illustrators? Her illustrators are, she's using them at a pretty good pace. When she's talking about that, she talks about the box and that's it. If you're describing something somebody did to you, we've all been to the doctor and go, dude, they took this thing and stuck it down my throat and it was, or stuck in my ear and I was, you get, you get more physical with that. You'll be, you'll be demonstrating more as you go through the illustrator. So she would have gone back to her back and said, there's a thing of the chair and had a thing in the back. I believe she would have been given more than that. So the more, the more she lies, you're right, Greg, the less she uses her illustrators and the quieter she gets, the more still she gets. And listen to that upspeak because we're going to see it throughout this. When she goes back and starts talking about this again later, when she runs into another cat who has the same kind of box to do tests on at another doctor, who has the same equipment, she does the same thing. So she says in 2009, she met a man called Mark Johns who told her he was an immunologist and neurologist, though no record of him exists. He had come to my home and went through a series of tests and this was dubbed integrative medicine. So he comes to your home and he does some tests on you? He does. What sort of tests? It was a box, a machine with lights on the front and that machine was apparently German technology. There's a two pads, two metal pads, one that goes below the chair and one that goes behind your back and then that measures what I believe or remember to be frequencies. And what were the results? He said to me that I had a stage four brain tumour and that I had approximately four months to live. Why did you write in the forward of your book that you got this information in your doctor's office, that you got this prognosis in your doctor's office? Because I think that being open and telling people the way that it happened would not be understood and that people would be disappointed or angry for me, you know, not following what is the right way to go about this. So you lied because you feared you wouldn't be believed? Is that what you're saying? Um, it's not what I'm saying. Well can you be clearer on what you're saying? I mean you you were absolutely misleading, weren't you? You said a doctor gave you this terrible prognosis in his office and you've just admitted that you didn't say it was at your home and it wasn't with a real doctor because you thought people would be disappointed in you. No, I believed he was a real doctor. So did you lie to be believed? It's the question. I didn't see him in his doctor's office in earth. You didn't see him in his doctor's office ever because he doesn't have an office, does he? No. All right, Mike, what do you got? Yeah, so let's look at that upspeak or what people often call high rise terminal in, in, in, I guess, inflection, the inflection world. So that is a standard of Australians. So in Australian, there's this upward inflection, often at the end of each line like that. And that's quite common. But hers on not be understood is extreme. So it's outside of her cultural baseline. It's outside of her particular baseline. So I would say the upspeak on that the high rise terminal on understood means that she isn't even confident herself in the idea that she's putting across as to why she would start this charade or charade in the first place. I'm going to come back to uprise terminal on the next one as well. So I'll hand over to somebody else. Chase, what do you got on this one? And yes. And this back. Thank you, everybody. Wow. Was it moving too much? Oh, he froze. Oh, that's all that you froze for a minute. I don't know. Is it Mark? Is it Mark's big shaking head? Yeah, I went for that too big. I kind of signaled that one. I gotta be subtler. All right. Let me go with that again. Chase, what do you got? There's a breathing shift in here. And it is there's two ways we're looking for shifts and breathing. We want to look for a breathing rate and we want to look for a shift in breathing location. So comfortable people breathe into their abdomen. If you watch a sleeping animal, sleeping baby, sleeping adult human, they breathe into their tummy and we breathe into our chest the more stressed out we become. And the second thing we're looking for is how often a person's breathing. So the breathing rate. So we have a significant rise in the upper chest breathing here and a rise in breathing rate, which is how often she's breathing. And as a quick pro tip, I hate that word. Better posture makes it easier to conceal shifts in breathing and loose clothing makes it easier to conceal breathing rate altogether. That sounds like, you know, if you're talking to a bunch of behavior profilers, but people are picking up on this stuff subconsciously, which is where a lot of our gut feelings come from. A subconscious pickup of this because we've been reading nonverbal communication this long and language was invented like 10 seconds ago in the Gestalt of all of our human existence. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, she starts off with kind of a steely looking stare at Tara and then she sits back and she goes to a new eye accessing place we haven't seen yet. She breaks eye contact up into her right. What that means doesn't matter. It just means she wants away from whatever's going on and she figures out how to answer the question. My favorite part of this whole thing is her cadence slows as she's navigating her way through like a good person who's trying to plug into your receptors would trying to figure out the right words and play you by ear. And then her eyes narrow as she shows concern when she's in trouble. And you should be able to turn off the sound and know when she's in a bind and thinking when you put it that way, because a respiration goes through the roof. Her blink rate is up when she's busted for lying. She loads up mark. I love that at that understand. And then she does my favorite redirect I've ever heard. She answers the last question when she's asked. So you lied to make yourself look better. She answers the last question. No, I thought he was a doctor. So it's just a beautiful redirect. Scott, what do you got? Wow. Yeah, you guys got a bunch of these things I was going to do. Another thing if you turn the sound off, watch her because she doesn't talk. She just sits there thinking for a while. That's incredible the time the amount of time she takes for those. Another thing is she's had so much Botox. She looks like she's going to be the leader of the human aunt invasion when it comes in because everything here in her glabella is just about as collapsed and gives her that her eyebrows that inward droop right there in the middle. She's really, really still, really, really still. And we're seeing a lot of things that show us her fighter flight is on because her she's very still. Her eyes are open. They're wide. I'm not seeing a whole lot. I figured I'd see a whole lot of people dilation, but they're dilation, but there's not. I don't see a whole lot. There is some, but not a whole lot. But her pupils are blown out almost in some of them. They're so large. Her teeth, she shows a lot of her bottom teeth. I know we all do, but she starts to seem like they're coming through extra for some reason. And I think that's because it's fear. She a lot of things that show us fear in this. When she says, um, she does an eye flutter when she says, uh, so I think her brain is like racing to, to, she said these, she's got these ideas, what she's going to say in her mind. If they ask me this, I'm going to say this. And she's rehearsed it in her mind, but she has not said these out loud. I think that's why it's so broken as she goes through. She takes so much time because she's, she's constructing those, putting the structure together before she sends them out. That's what's taken so long. That's what the pauses are for, I think at that point. So she's thought about what she's going to say, but she hasn't said it out loud. Now, a lot of times you'll see an interrogation. If you leave the room and you watch on the monitor, somebody will be sitting there. They'll be going, I did not do it. No, I did not. I am not the one that did. You'll see them rehearsing what they're going to say. And so when it comes out, it sounds, still sounds goofy, but, but not like that. Not like, like she sounds. All these things are indications of fear. Most of them are anyway, um, you guys cover the breathing and stuff. All right. I'm good. You ready? Yeah. Why did you write in the forward of your book that you got this information in your doctor's office, that you got this prognosis in your doctor's office? Because I think that being open and telling people the way that it happened would, um, not be understood. And that people would be disappointed or angry for me, you know, not, um, following what is the right way to go about this. So you lied because you feared you wouldn't be believed. Is that what you're saying? Um, it's not what I'm saying. Well, can you be clearer on what you're saying? I mean, you, you, you were absolutely misleading, weren't you? You said a doctor gave you this terrible prognosis in his office. And you've just admitted that you didn't say it was at your home and it wasn't with a real doctor because you thought people would be disappointed in you. No, I believed he was a real doctor. So did you lie to be believed? It's the question. I didn't see him in his doctor's office in Perth. You didn't see him in his doctor's office ever because he doesn't have an office, does he? No. Smooth. But today she has yet another reason for why she walked away from cancer medication. Very soon after I'd been started this treatment here in Melbourne, I felt pregnant. And that was a huge catalyst for me. In what way? Because I thought, well, if I'm going, undergoing chemotherapy, then I don't want that to affect my pregnancy. Oh, so you stopped the chemotherapy because you're pregnant? I stopped the chemotherapy for various reasons. I didn't know. Truth, Bill. Truth. Tara, I'm trying to draw on information. No, no. Don't draw on information. Just be honest. I am being honest with you. Okay. Chase, what do you got? I think, Mark, I'm going to go to your upward tone thing here. I'm just going to touch on it. She says, I felt pregnant. Not I was pregnant. And I can feel pregnant too. I can. Which reminded me of that scene from Meet the Parents when the dad, he's talking about milking cats, and he says, you can milk anything with nipples. And the dad goes, I have nipples, Greg, can you milk me? So I was cracking up this morning watching that. So there's a lot of uncertainty there and this upward tone. I just wanted to hammer in on that to I felt pregnant comment. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so let's talk about that upward tone. We hear it across Allhouse Beach because she's Australian, but we hear it at an extreme level on pregnant and pregnancy. So look, upward inflection is used across cultures around dominance, for either distributing dominance, you can use it to create a questioning tone because you don't want to assert. You can even use it assertively to go, Hey, I bet you've got a question around that because you're not as intelligent as I am. It can be used in all kinds of ways. It doesn't mean one thing. In this case, I think on pregnant, she's not confident around that. I'm not sure whether there was a pregnancy or there wasn't a pregnancy. I don't know, you know, what the actual biology was there. It wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't. There wasn't a pregnancy, to be honest. But if there was, then she's not even certain that that is a good alibi for her. And I think that's why we get the extreme upward intonation there to distribute the power a little bit. She's not so sure on the pregnancy, the upward intonation there, I think she's looking for buying on that one. And so she's come back to the idea to go, do you get that? Do you buy in with that? Is that good for you? By the way, the upward inflection in Australia probably comes from when people left the southeast of England on about 11 ships or so and arrived in Australia. And the part of the country of England where they came from already had an upward inflection, the Norfolk Broads area already had that upward inflection in it. They bought that across. Very small group of people just kept that idea going and going and going in an isolated culture. Also, when you're in an isolated culture, you need to distribute and share more power. And so you're going to have more upward intonation in your voice in order to distribute power within the group that you're with. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, so when I talk about her being like Jodi Arias, what I mean by that is they're very rigid, but they're also paying attention and they're looking for any opportunity to inject something that may change your opinion and get what they want. And their threshold thinkers by that, I mean, they're paying attention to any change that occurs so that they can respond to that. And if you watch her, you'll see it here. She starts off and she changes her tone a little bit so you know something's up. And then she tries to fish with the pregnant thing. That's a classic, hey, but I was pregnant. So you got to kind of feel bad for me there. This woman's not buying into that at all. But when she says I felt pregnant or felt pregnant, then she's got kind of a little smirk. I think she thinks this woman's dumb enough for that to change the topic and it doesn't at all. And the interviewer then turns her head and starts that kind of taffy pulling like, come on, you're not going to try that with me, are you? And she knows that this is not working. So then she has to change gears again. She does a couple of other things. She's got a little bit of anger when she tries to sidestep with the facts. Her voice actually changed. That tone indicates that she's a little irritated that it didn't work. Then she tries to change. She sees that done work either. So you will see things starting to change for her. I don't see anything working for her. And I'm sure she's very frustrated because she's got that same thing Jody Arias has about plugging into you. Scott, go ahead. All right. I think you're right, Mark. I think the upspeak on a lot of that is because of her accent, but it goes really high when she starts hitting those things where she's just leaning into the lie real big. And we see the policies because again, she's searching and structuring her answer because she hasn't said these things out loud before. And I'm not so sure that somebody else hasn't talked to her about these things, but ask different questions because she's still just taking them. It's not hitting her back or anything. She's just like, yeah, coming on strong with these answers. It's kind of unbelievable when you see this, especially since she keeps getting whacked right in the head with no, I don't believe you, no, I don't believe you, no, I don't believe you that were people dilation. Again, here is bothering me because it's not really, it's big, but it's not getting really small. There are a couple of spots in here we'll look at where it gets smaller, but it's not, there's not changing a whole lot in there. So I don't know what that means yet, but it's, it's, it's bothering me. It's bothering me. All right. A lot of these things, I think we're seeing her just fear a lot of it. So that's, that's another reason that she's breathing that way. And again, did you say tummy earlier, Chase? Yeah. It's because of that dog. Did you call it it's tummy pumpkin? Probably. Yeah. And she was in this interview, she was paid 75K to do this interview. Oh, well, here's another data point for you. Her, I think Penguin was her publisher and they did a mock first run with her a while back that was a hidden video and they were afraid that something was going to happen. So if you go look, you'll find that Penguin video as well where she's claiming to have some other kind of cancer and that kind of stuff. And I think it's when they first started to wonder if she was telling the truth. So yeah, you can go find that as well. So Scott, your, your instinct is good. She's had questioning before this. But today she has yet another reason for why she walked away from cancer medication. Very soon after I'd been started this treatment here in Melbourne, I felt pregnant. And that was a huge catalyst for me. In what way? Because I thought, well, if I'm going undergoing chemotherapy, then I don't want that to affect my pregnancy. Oh, so you stopped the chemotherapy because you're pregnant? I stopped the chemotherapy for various reasons. I didn't know truth, little truth. Tara, I'm trying to draw on information. No, no, don't draw on information. Just be honest. I am being honest with you. I mean, you're going to extraordinary details. I had surgery about seven hours ago. The doctor comes in and tells me the draining failed and I went into cardiac arrest and died for just under three minutes. I had the most intense bruising from the paddles when they electrocuted me back to consciousness. Minus the wires and constant throwing up a blood. Anyway, the procedure failed and I died. See, I haven't read back through all of that, but I also think when you're young and have gone through the situation I had just gone through, you are melodramatic. Okay, Greg, what do you got? Scott, you don't understand. Once upon a time, really bad things happen to me, so whatever I do, it's okay. That's all she just said. She's just wrapping herself in the blanket of victimhood. That's it. I'll leave that alone and go from there to Scott. What do you got? All right. I think at this point, Greg, if you and I were going in as a team to talk to her and they said, no, only one person can talk to her. Just one. And I lost the flip, the coin for that. I think at this point I would have to step in and go, dude, let me do one. Let me do one. Let me ask her one. Because that's the look that's on this woman's face. I can't believe she's telling me this. I really can't believe this is happening. Again, she's really still and we're seeing fear. A lot of this is fear, so I think she knows what's coming and she's, and again, from being questioned before, maybe, she's sort of used to that feeling and she's just sitting there taking it. That's about it. Not a whole lot in the glabella either. Again, because of those eyebrows. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I think she's coming on a lot stronger in this one. When she wants to make her point after that initial attack from Tara, we get a really good side glance eye roll, okay? And bitterness in the mouth and disdain, I would say, within moments of each other. So she really does not like what Tara is doing here. There's a real battle going on. She then shrugs off the attack from her shoulders. She shakes off the attack with her head and she casts her eyes down and gets the attack to roll off her. So now it's a real battle, I think. She comes on stronger and she's wanting this to roll off her and she feels disdain for the interviewer. Chase, what do you got on this one? You should narrate something for National Geographic. Say something about giraffes, Mark. Talk about giraffes just for a second. We'll get a video up sometime and I'll do my National Geographic voice. There's one thing we see here. She's talking about all the crap that she went through. But then the behavior that's not explainable, she says the word you. She's here from I to you. At the moment you want to question something, it's talking about you. So as a, I'll say it again, pro tip, almost everyone you'll ever speak to who are guilty are going to reveal their self reassurance strategy within the statements in the beginnings of almost any interview. And this is how they rationalize what they did, how they socialize what they did and how they minimize it. And this little reveal tells you the precise strategy that you are going to need to obtain a confession. That's all I got. I mean, you're going to extraordinary details. I had surgery about seven hours ago. The doctor comes in and tells me the draining failed and I went into cardiac arrest and died for just under three minutes. I had the most intense bruising from the paddles when they electrocuted me back to consciousness. Minus the wires and constant throwing up a blood. Anyway, the procedure failed and I died. See, I haven't read back through all of that, but I also think when you're young and have gone through the situation I had just gone through, you are melodramatic. Excellent. Melodramatic now? I mean, they're straight out lies. You weren't in hospital. You're claiming you were. Claimed you died twice. You didn't. Claimed you had two cardiac arrests. You didn't. That's not melodramatic. That's straight out lying. It is. Extraordinary lies. And if you lie about that and you go to those extraordinary lengths to create the story around that lie, how can we believe anything you say now? Tara, I have lost everything and I'm not here to regain it, but when you hit rock bottom, there is only an opportunity to be honest and to heal and to apologize and I'm here to do that. There is no reason for me to lie and it's not something I want to be doing either. All right. I'm going to go first on this one because I think you're right, Greg. I think this is from those questions they gave her a little class on how to answer questions. That's what it is. That's why she's talking like that and sounding like that. I really think that's what's going on there. She does the eye blocking after she admits she lied and she does the eye blocking by keeping her eyes closed too long. And then we do actually see a little bit more glabella work in here at that point. But it's not like this. She's not getting anything above this, but it's all in here. So she must be trying really hard to make that happen at that point. But like Rocky, she's standing there just taking these punches, man, just boom, boom, boom, and just sitting there taking them. It's unbelievable how she keeps doing this and hasn't gotten up and left yet, I think. So I think she's been prepped. You're right, Greg. Sort of dawned on me now after seeing that part of it. So, all right, Greg, what do you got? So, but she's pissed. If you can't see pissed in that, look at those set lips. Her jaw is set. Her chin is down at one point. Her left brow goes up. She shows concern in here and she's got asymmetry in her mouth as she's looking at her. That set jaw and that respiration increase, and then the eye blocking. She does kind of a pseudo smile and she's got a voice fry in here. She's pissed. She's just containing it. I really do think this is, if you remember Jodi, how poised she was, except for when she would come back at you with the right word, I see the same thing, the same behavior. If I were interrogating this person, I would stroke her ego like all hell. Oh, you were, I get it. It was really bad. You were in a horrible situation until I got her to start talking, and then I would just turn it and jump on her. And that's the way you get this kind of people to break. That's the way you do it in interrogation. It works wonderfully. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so it's really difficult to see from, you know, our point of view, you can look at it and go, well, why is she hanging on in there? Why is she hanging on in there? Well, I would suggest her whole idea of herself hinges on this idea of the cancer and everything around it. If she admits to a lie, either consciously or unconsciously, it would shatter her idea of herself. And that's why, you know, from our point of view, we might go, I'm not really attached to this story or I made it up. She's super attached to this, whether for a personality like this, whether it's something like munchausen, or whether it's an antisocial behavior disorder, either way, you will be so attached to this idea of the moment of admitting a lie shatters everything. So that's why I think she's hanging on in there. There's no reason for me to lie. It's not something I want to be doing is an interesting though way of phrasing it because it doesn't ever say that she isn't lying. And it doesn't ever say, I'm telling you the truth. I would want to hear from her, I'm telling you the truth or I'm not lying. What she says is there's no reason for this and I never want to do it, which doesn't mean she isn't doing that right now. Chase, what do you got on this one? So I have a friend and a colleague in the Department of Defense, her name is Amy. And I trained her maybe seven, eight years ago and a few times, several times. And she commented on one of our YouTube videos one time. And she said, Chase, you've been saying this for years. And someone responded to her like, I'm sorry, the behavior panel only started a year ago in all caps. That's not possible. So I say that because all of us exist outside of your iPad or outside of YouTube. We actually were real humans. And all of us have probably collectively interviewed tens of thousands of people. And I say this to say, I'm willing to bet that none of us have ever heard anyone say lying is not something they want to be doing. Those words, it's not lying is not something I want to be doing in any interview I've ever experienced. And we've done quite a bit in some unusual circumstances. That's all I got. My favorite one I ever had Chase was lying is not something I'm comfortable with. Well, good because you're not good at it either. Melodramatic now. I mean, they're straight out lies. You weren't in hospital. You're claiming you were claimed you died twice. You didn't claim to cut into risks. You didn't. That's not melodramatic. That's straight out lying. It is ordinary lies. And if you lie about that, and you go to those extraordinary lengths to create the story around that lie, how can we believe anything you say now? Tara, I have lost everything and I'm not here to regain it. But when you hit rock bottom, there is only an opportunity to be honest and to heal and to apologize. And I'm here to do that. There is no reason for me to lie. And it's not something I want to be doing either. All right. So what did the brain scan show? He brought in scans and it showed a brain tumor. But that wasn't my scan because most recently I went back to the Alfred and I got my full portfolio from them. And I did get that brain scan, but there is no brain tumor there. All right, Chase, what do you got? I think these facial expressions we're seeing from the interview are absolutely priceless. But I think it's incredible that we're seeing someone admitting to lying and then lying to cover up the lie that they just admitted to. And I have a hunch that this might be deceptive, but I will admit it's a scenario I have never witnessed once in my life. But I think it's potentially deceptive. Scott, what do you think? That's why this is so fascinating. Greg and I stayed on the phone. He was calling me every four minutes. Did you see this? Did you see this? Like, yeah, I'm right in the middle of it. I watched this like four times straight through. One thing where she says, most recently I went back to the Alfred. Nobody talks like that. What have you been doing today? Well, most recently I went to Hattie B's and got hot chicken. Nobody talks like that. It's just odd. So that lets us know she hasn't said this out loud before. That was my big one on there, was just trying to do one. And it deliveries the same as all the other ones when she's right in the middle of it, when she's getting the heat turned on. So we see her in that her, don't jump off of there. We see fear in her face, the whole thing. Her freeze fighter flight is just on fire at this point, I think. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, it's deception. It's layers of deception at a level that you don't really often see because you don't often get to see somebody like this because most people are not attached to their lies, to the level that she has attached to them for all kinds of psychological and financial reasons that her whole life is attached to this idea. If the idea gets destroyed, her whole life is destroyed. And you can imagine that's going to be pretty tricky. So the lies keep layering up here. What's really lovely about this, I did get that brain scan, but no tumor. So she sets up at the end this idea of that brain scan. But at the start, she sets up the idea of she was shown scans and those scans had a tumor. So that brain scan isn't in the first story. So it obviously creates mystery. It's like that's a mystery, isn't it? No, it's not because you just follow the line of logic there, scans that somebody bought in, and then she goes to her file and looks at that brain scan, which we know didn't show up in that pile over there. The whole story is just falling apart for her. It's a massive disaster. You and I would give up at this point. She's going to continue with this one. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, Mark, I always call what you're talking about personal extinction. It doesn't necessarily need to be financial. It can be that a person is so vested in being the tallest person in the room, even when they're not that if they learn they're not, then that's all they have. And you've torn it up. When I talk about interrogation, I often say there are four cards in the box. If I tear three up and show you the fourth one, you'll do what I want you to do. That's human nature. And I think that is the complexity with it. The other thing we see here is she started off by saying she was a victim, that she had been tricked by the traveling doctor with the German technology. Here's another guy tricking her. And we're going to see this. Okay, now Chase, I'm going to use yours, the vanishing perpetrator, the guy who brings her this brain scan when she asked a question. Did you have a brain tumor? She says, well, he brought out this stuff. She distances from the question. And she said, in fact, he told me I had a brain tumor. Well, she didn't. She's making way too much eye contact. And she's talking the front of her mouth. Here we go again, her chin drops, her pupils dilate. This is all her she's in a bind. I agree with you. She's so vested that she has to hold on. And that's what we're seeing. So what did the brain scan show? He brought in scans. And it showed a brain tumor. But that wasn't my scan. Because most recently, I went back to the Alfred and I got my full portfolio from them. And I did get that brain scan. But there is no brain tumor there. He's saying he never, ever told you that you had cancer throughout your body. Did he ever say that to you? He did. So he's lying, you're not lying. I am not lying. He definitely told me that my brain tumor is still present and that I have new and secondary cancers. And how did he assess that? In the same way that Mark did. Similar machines and similar equipment. Did you think to go to a doctor? Did you think to go to the hospital? Did you think to get this checked out? Not really, not initially. I was devastated. All right, Greg, what do you got? Well, Chase, I'm going to tell you what's wrong with you. I've got this piece of paper. This is the most asinine thing I've ever heard anybody say. Okay, one time a person comes along with a random box and tells you have a brain tumor by putting a paddle on each side of your body. Okay, I made a mistake. I'm supposed to die four months later. I go, I find out I'm not dying from that. Then another the same guy or another guy brings a similar technology and tells me I'm going to die. And it's been four months. Just the sheer logic to the question, the sheer logic to the story doesn't make any sense. There's no why would anybody believe it number one right up front? But then as she's trying to figure out what to say, listen to her halting responses as she's trying to figure out the right words to make this work. There's no logical answer is going to make it work. And you can hear her brain is doing the squirrel in the road as it tries to figure out the right answer to use in the next sentence. Chase, what do you got? If I had a nickel for every German technology scanning salesman that comes by, you say that all the time. Yeah. So in this one, if you've got a high death device, or if you're watching this on a big TV, you can see largest pupil dilation throughout the whole video, right when she says he did go ahead and cross that off, Scott. Yeah. So as a quick secondary, there's strong transderivational search in response to this question, a very simple question. So as the questions being asked, her eyes are accessing all over the place to try to retrieve data. This is one of the very few things I personally will ever say that is almost always a standalone indicator of deception on its own and by itself. And we say look for clusters all the time. This is one that I believe is an exception, in my opinion. Mark, what do you think? Yeah. So we get that big upward inflection on present. The cancer was still present, like way out of baseline, way out of the baseline for her personally and an Australian. So there's an issue there with this ideal of the present cancer, similar machines. So why the stutter around this idea of machines? She doesn't do it anywhere else. I think she doesn't have a clear image of this machine in her head. I don't think, I mean, we've heard her describe the last one. It was a box and it had some lights on it. I've been hooked up to some medical machines in my time, either because I need some treatment or I've been helping salespeople sell those machines. I remember all of those machines. I could describe to you those machines. Now look, I may get some details wrong because memory is, you know, is an odd thing. But I'd certainly give it a damn good go and I get some of it actually pretty right. I think I'm not quite sure that she has a real picture in her head about these machines. So I'm not entirely sure that even the boxes really with the lights or any of that stuff even really existed. I'm not even sure there was a German guy called Mark or maybe that one wasn't cool. No, this recent one was Mark. I don't know what the past German guy or maybe it wasn't Germany. He just had German stuff. Just had German stuff. German stuff. Anyway, one last thing I want to say about this, sweaters, cardigans, it's bleak. It's lonely. It's cold. She needs comfort and protection. Not only is she putting herself up as the victim here, but actually, you know, 60 minutes to give her a little bit of her due is playing along with this as well. They are creating images around her of bleakness, of loneliness, of needing comfort, of wrapping up warm. I think to get this idea of yes, the victim, but also the idea of somebody who needs hope. And I think this is what people are most upset around this is she did give some people some hope where she wasn't really going to be able to supply any of that in reality. And she maybe knew that maybe she didn't. But but they were being sold an idea of hope that she couldn't really deliver. So I think 60 minutes I kind of joining in on this just a little bit to characterize her. So we should we should watch out for that. Scott, what do you got on this one? All right, that odd head nod when she's saying I'm not lying. That's again, that's a confirmation nod because she's selling this hardcore. And then after she finds out that this guy's not a real doctor, she doesn't run to a real doctor and go, dude, am I dying or what's going on here? What have I got? Have I got something? What's going on? That's the first thing going to do after that. You're going to go find your lawyer. You got to sue all those people back into the Stone Age. Every one of them, if this were true. So those are the things I've got on that. Again, she's back to her upspeak just like in the very first video where she's doing the upspeak stuff and all those things like you were pointing out as well, Mark, she's back to that and she gets the machine, same stuff again. So those things she's, she's talked about in her head, but she hasn't talked about them out loud except for that first one. That's why I think she was having a problem in the second one, Mark. I think maybe she saw something on the internet like on YouTube or something where she saw somebody with a box like that and she's trying to grab that and describe it, but doesn't remember that much about it as she went through. So that's what I think. Greg, is that everybody? Dang it. Look at it. Finally got your ass because you like to call everybody else out for forgetting. Of course I'll edit that out. He's saying he never, ever told you that you had cancer throughout your body. Did he ever say that to you? He did. So he's lying, you're not lying. I am not lying. He definitely told me that my brain tumor is still present and that I have new and secondary cancers. And how did he assess that? In the same way that Mark did, similar machines and similar equipment. Did you think to go to a doctor? Did you think to go to the hospital? Did you think to get this checked out? Not really, not initially. I was devastated. Wow. Do you know what the definition of truth is? Yes. What's your definition of truth? Speaking with honesty and with clear definition around fact. And what's your definition of a lie? Well, obviously the opposite of that. Chase, what do you got? So I'm going to do another pro tip. I decided to make this a pro tip series. I think I stacked these in here because we were all going to do just one thing on these and I just wanted to make stuff up that was that nobody else would get. So here it is. What do you got? The stack of papers technique. And Scott has a different name for this. He calls it a BS folder, BS binder is absolutely deadly effective in interrogations. And I thought that's what was going to happen when she opened this little thing of papers. Because as I'm asking a question and I'm pulling something out that looks like a reference piece of paper as the questions coming out where like I might have a piece of data that you don't have access to. And I want to make sure I get this crystal clear. So I'm going to look at the paper while I'm asking the question. That is a unbelievably effective technique. And you can do this with your phone. It works a whole lot of different ways. But I think it's incredible that the interviewer is almost becoming vengeful at this at this point here. That's my thing. Greg. Yeah, the intelligence interrogation moniker for that is file in dossier. That's what that's called. Actually, you create some kind of garbage file and you come in and do whatever. Yeah. So what's funny here is when she starts to poke on her, you're seeing this is the animal. This right here, I would say the organism does what made the organism successful. This is it. This is what she does best is look for what you need and try to feed it to you. Watch her. This is her in the wild. You see a little bit of fear, a little bit of disgust and a little bit of terror or whatever is going on her face is she's trying to figure out what you want. And then she starts feeding you little pieces of information like your nine-year-old kid would in a bind. And then it's when you tell the truth and when you get a little bit of positive feedback, then she starts giving other stuff and she absolutely gets excited to do it. It's funny to watch. But this is her in the nutshell. This is one of those typical people who's looking for a receptor and plugging into it. And you can watch her. Then when she says, well, what's your definition of a lie? Well, obviously be the opposite. It is so telling. This is the entire interrogation right here. This is why you want to dog-pile her, make her think you believe in her and then dog-pile and turn on her. That's how this works best. Mark, what do you get? Yeah, I wish somebody would ask me that question because I literally got a whole book that I could give them on definitions of what truth and lies are. So obviously her definitions are pretty naive and just because truth and lies are not necessarily the antithesis of each other. And therefore her logic is off-skew completely from moment one. But all of that said, when she says yes, she's relatively strong with that because this is the one thing she doesn't want to go near, which is what is the truth and what is a lie? Because if she defines this in the wrong way, again, her world just completely unravels in front of us. So she's got to do this very, very carefully. I think at that moment we see fear and anger at the same time in her face. Micro gestures in the face, I would say, but enough that those two things converge into fear and anger at the same time on yes. Go and take a look. Tell me whether you think I'm correct. Put it down below. Scott, what do you got on this one? Yeah, you're right. When you see that it's a blending of two expressions at the same time, that's great. But my thing is four words. When she asks her what lie is, and this is, mine's going to be super short, she does not know. Do you know what the definition of truth is? Yes. What's your definition of truth? Speaking with honesty and with clear definition around fact. And what's your definition of a lie? Well, obviously the opposite of that. You're 23, right? Well, actually, how old are you? I've always been raised as being currently a 26-year-old. How old are you? Well, I live knowing, as I've always known, that I would be 26. Okay, Bill. This is a really, really simple question. How old are you? I believe that I'm 26. I have two birth certificates and I've had my name change four times. The identity crisis there is big, but that was my normal when I was growing up, Tara, that... What do you know the truth to be now? That's probably a question that we'll have to keep digging for, because it's not something I've ever understood or had answers around. That was pretty profound, actually. Yeah, yeah, she comes in hot at the end. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is a really good one because she has prepared for this. We always talk about chaff and redirect, and she tries some of that. She blasts out a whole bunch of well. I had more than one birth certificate, but she's also tried something really profound. We've only ever seen one other person try, and that was Stephanie Lazarus. She tries anchor and redirect. She's been telling you how bad her life was in the past, and now she tries to go back to that anchor to use that as a redirect to say, that was my normal. I had four birth certificates. I was a victim. Horrible things were happening. I guess the only way we're going to know how old she is is to cut her in half and count the rings like a tree. That's all there is. Scott, what do you got? All right, and from my point of view, I don't think body language comes in at this point. I don't think we're dealing with that here. This is all psychological, and this is where we see there's something really wrong with her. This is where it starts to peel back and you go, oh, my Lord, something's, this is, I've told you guys about that situation where two people had the same thing within like a week of each other that was like just for you guys to remember what we talked about was a schizophrenic situation. In this case, when you see this, you just go, oh, I see what's going on here. This, this isn't about, at this point, we're not talking about body language. We're talking about a psychological situation here. She's against the wall and she's lying. She's not answering the question. She's trying her best not to answer that question for whatever reason she doesn't want to, but she says she's had her name changed four times and she doesn't say how old she is and she's always grown up to believe she was this age. There's a lot going on there and I'm not a person that can step in there and say what all these psychological things are, but that's where that's pointing for me. Chase, what do you got? I think she is directing it in a way that makes it look psychological. And this, this little clip has three segments in it. So there's three little question and answers. So I'm going to use the behavioral table of elements. You can download it right in the link in the description to just analyze that first little like seven seconds of her response. There's vague language. There's two qualifiers, hesitancy, a transderivational search during questioning, which we just talked about. And there's deviation from iHome during the recall there. So this gives her a score of 25, which is extremely high. A score over 11 indicates a likelihood of deception and she's got more than double. So that's just the first couple of seconds there using the behavioral table of elements. Mark, what do you think? Yeah, still not the highest score that we've ever had though. Still not the highest score. Yeah, still not a winner in that department. Okay, 26 and birth certificates. Again, both of those upward inflections are way outside of the culture and the baseline. So there's some real issues with that. It's possible that she could have two birth certificates. She doesn't, but it is a possibility. I'm not saying it's not possible. There are possibilities whereby you can get yourself a couple of birth certificates. It's pretty hard to do, but you could do it. I don't think she does. I don't think she does at all. But she has downward intonation on the on the name changes four times. I think that has happened. I mean, in that she's called herself different things and she's been known by different names by different people. She can count four of those and she's probably did it did a deep poll at something at some time and changed her name. That would be usual for somebody in her, her position, her, her psychology would easily go about that. But right at the end, here's the really interesting thing. Narrowing of the eyes to target the interviewer. Ginger exposes the neck and exposes the bottom teeth. She's now getting aggressive with her. She doesn't like this at all. She is right up against the wall and now she has gone from flight to fight. And now she's coming in really hot. There is a lot of aggression inside her. I'm not sure how much longer this interview went on, but she's now starting to ramp up a little more alarmingly now. That's all I got on that one. I think we're all done, aren't we? Yeah. You're 23, right? Well, actually, how old are you? I've always been raised as being currently a 26-year-old. How old are you? Well, I live knowing as I've always known that I would be 26. Okay, Bill. This is a really, really simple question. How old are you? I believe that I'm 26. I have two birth certificates and I've had my name change four times. The identity crisis there is big, but that was my normal when I was growing up, Tara, that... What do you know the truth to be now? That's probably a question that we have to keep digging for because it's not something I've ever understood or had answers around. So when you needed to file some financial documents, how did you choose the birth date you gave if you don't know? With my most recent Deedpole paper, which has the younger of the age and the most recent of the name. Right. So currently then, according to those documents, you're 23? Correct. What a great find, Greg. That was so good. Yeah, no kidding. That's awesome. All right, Greg, what do you got? I'll be real quick. Her respiration's up. She's fishing. She's trying to pay attention and see what this person wants. Watch that right, Brow. She's got some inconsistency in her face now and she's got a request for approval as she's talking. And her jaw, her lower jaw withdraws a little bit. I think she's kind of in a panic mode right now. Mark, I think you're right. She's hot. She wants to come out swinging, but she also realizes she's standing in a house of cards, so she can't do a whole lot. She's her answer type. Chase, what do you got? So I'm just going to analyze what happened before she even started answering. So this is just during the interviewer's question at the very front of this clip that you're about to see again here in a second. So just before this little segment, there's a breathing location shift into the upper chest. There's a breathing rate increase. There's a blink rate increase to 50 plus. That scores an 11 on the behavioral table, and that's before she even starts to speak. So I think that's pretty impressive. Scott, what do you think? Yeah, say the least. All right. After the question, she says she chooses the younger of the age and the most recent name. She's completely separating herself from herself, from her identity. So I think we're dealing with some kind of, again, I'm going back to the psychological thing. There's some romance, girl. Not that we didn't know that already, but I mean, it becomes obviously at this point. So that's where I'm going to sit with that is because we're going to try to do one thing. I went on that. I was like, wow. So yeah, I'm going with a mental illness at this point. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So I concur with you, like any good doctor would say, Greg, but a German one would say that in German. I'm not sure what concur is in German. But yeah, I would say, here we go, panic, panic, panic, right there. Yeah. This is the one that I was saying, hey, if you go and look at the polo neck, okay, just copy that breathing rate, you'll see about five breaths up and down. But I just want you to copy that and see how you feel. Your feelings will change very, very quickly. Make sure you're not around any sharp objects because you're going to fall over because she's hyperventilating right now. She's gone into panic. Now she's not going to fall over because her adrenaline is ramped up, which means her metabolism is right up. But if you sit there watching this and you breathe at that rate, you'll soon want to move towards, you know, hitting your head at the side of a desk or something. So probably don't do it. Stay away from that. But yeah, she's in full panic now, I would say. Her back's right against the wall. She can't really fight this one out. So she's gone from flight to fight. And now she's heading towards fate. I would say if her adrenaline drops, she would just go pallid and just probably stop talking. I don't think she gets there though in this. There, that's what I got. I think we're all done, yeah? Yeah, yep. So when you needed to file some financial documents, how did you choose the birth date you gave? If you don't know. With my most recent Deedpole paper, which has the younger of the age and the most recent of the name. Right. So currently then, according to those documents, you're 23. Correct. It would be funny if it wasn't so serious. And the really serious side to this is those who were caught out by Bell. The Schwartz family believed and befriended Bell. Sadly, their seven-year-old son, Joshua, does have terminal brain cancer. What type of an apology would you like to make to the Schwartz family? Their family means a lot to me because of the care and the love and the friendship that we had grown over the last year. They believe that you pumped them for information about their son's symptoms so you could take them on as your own. That family was one that I did have little interaction with. It's not how they describe it. They say you cried with them. Your children played together. I understand that they're hurting, but I also know that I never questioned Joshua or his mother about his symptoms. All right. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. Yeah. Look, great question. What type of apology would you like to make? What's great about this is, I think as Chase, you would say, she gives her the opportunity of a bridge, of crossing a bridge to that apology, which is a great offer for the interviewer to go, here's an opportunity. What type of apology? You're going to apologize. We're looking at what style it's going to be with. She is not going to do it. She can't do it. She's so attached to this idea that she's not going to even cross that bridge. There's no apology whatsoever. It's really tricky because is this a personality that is looking for attention and sympathy by becoming the victim, which would be one way of diagnosing this? Or is it a straight up fraudster, somebody who is doing what is socially wrong? It's an antisocial behavior that's going on here, conning people and families who really do have stage four loved ones in stage four cancer. That would be another kind of diagnosis of this. I don't really know which one it is because in both of those states, the person might want to hang on and hang on and hang on to this idea. She's just not going to apologize, which again is strange for us because we'd probably just go, okay, the game's up. I'm really sorry. I made a terrible mistake. I was in so deep that I couldn't come back from it. I want to apologize to everybody out there. That's probably what you and I might do. She's not going there. She's never going to go there. Scott, what do you got on this one? Yeah, this is where I turned on her. This is beyond rude and beyond anything else. When you go fishing for a child's symptoms so you can use them for yourself, that's what psychopaths do. Now, at this point, I'm not sure anybody's even in there. How can you do that? Go to somebody whose child is dying, the little child is dying of brain cancer and start fishing for information from that child for yourself to profit from that. Now, this is, there's something wrong with this woman. I'm going to be quiet at this point because I'm about to go off. Greg, what do you got? The most interesting of all the body language in this segment is when she eye blocks and drops her chin, pulls her chin back in acceptance, in acceptance of the fact these people are irritated with her. Regardless of why she did it, whether it's, hey, I expected that or whether it's yeah, I really screwed up on that one or whatever it is, it is acceptance. I'm done with it right there. I'll leave that for Chase. Right. I think there's a piece of this that's probably truthful where she says, I didn't talk to the mom or Joshua about this. I bet she probably just talked to the dad because she specifically leaves him out of the denial. And there's eye closure here. Greg, you were talking about one case. There's another thing you're going to see when, right when this clip comes back up, you're going to see more eye closure when the interviewer saying, pumped them for information, which we talked about in the first video. This could indicate regret or shame or guilt, like somebody not wanting to hear something or whatever topic is being brought up. That's all I got. It would be funny if it wasn't so serious. And the really serious side to this is those who were caught out by Bell. The Schwartz family believed and befriended Bell. Sadly, their seven-year-old son Joshua does have terminal brain cancer. What type of an apology would you like to make to the Schwartz family? Their family means a lot to me because of the care and the love and the friendship that we had grown over the last year. They believe that you pumped them for information about their son's symptoms so you could take them on as your own. That family was one that I did have little interaction with. It's not how they describe it. They say you cried with them, your children played together. I understand that they're hurting, but I also know that I never questioned Joshua or his mother about his symptoms. All right. Well, if you like what we're doing, please subscribe. Oh, wait, let's go around the room one time. Let's wrap it up. Yeah. All right. So that's what we'll do. We'll go around the room. We'll go Mark, Chase, Greg, then I'll wrap it up. Mark. Yeah, I think the most fascinating thing here is just how she holds on, holds on to this idea. We don't normally see that. Normally somebody would crumble at this point. She's hanging on and hanging on and hanging on. So it is quite extraordinary. I'll leave you to decide why you think that's the case. Hopefully we've laid down some ideas around that, but you'd be the decision maker on that. Chase, what do you think? So I had some squirrels out in our backyard and I got a squirrel proof bird feeder and they figured it out, but they didn't figure it out as a group. One squirrel figured it out and then all the other squirrels came. So when a creature like Greg was saying early, when the organism discovers something that works, it's going to continue doing it. When a creature discovers a way to access more resources, resources, the behavior will spread as more creatures become aware of it. And I think habitual false victim signalers like Jesse Smollett, we just did an episode on him, they deplete these available resources for genuine victims and they dupe these trusting people into misallocating those resources. And they can initiate this dysfunctional cycle of what the academic research calls, and I think it's a badass word for it, competitive victimhood within society. So becoming a victim gives you access to resources. Think of the Maslow's pyramid of needs, hierarchy of needs, that's our big resources. Like I'm going to get money, I'm going to get recognition, I'm going to get social. This is the Maslow's pyramid comes from being a victim. So it's getting access to resources just like the squirrel. We're seeing an increase in this in our society as a whole and these people and they're depleting the resources for everybody else. It pisses me off. I'm sorry to go too long. Greg, what do you got? Yeah. So what starts off is a story about a traveling cancer salesman or whatever the hell this guy was turns into just lie after lie after lie. The interesting piece for me here is this is what happens when you get a person who's good at conning, but can't because all the cards are stacked. You're looking at all their cards and saying, look here, I know what hand you have and I'm going to tell you everything you did. When that happens, we see the Jodi areas effect rigid, waiting, trying to get an opportunity, trying to plug in that little piece of information you need. That guys, this did not happen. She did not get all of that money and all that wealth and all that stuff she she was having before because she did anything different than she's doing here. She just doesn't have the capability here to play the cards the way she wants to guarantee you that every person she dealt with got the same kind of treatment she got from this person. She was just more polished and more fluid. That's exactly the kind of person that cons people. That's how this kind of thing works. Is that a mental illness? Sure, maybe, but it's certainly a predatory behavior. This is predatory behavior that led her to this point and this is where she's at. Got no sympathy, no compassion for that. The victimhood here is that other people are being victimized to your point, Chase, by taking resources that could have gone out of the way. Scott, what do you got? All right. Yeah. The thing I liked about this is we get to see somebody go from trying to answer these questions and really I think leaning into it and going, yeah, I might get away with this and then slowly seeing this thing turn into a psychological situation where you see this person that's absolutely nuts at the end of this thing. There's something really wrong with them. I don't want to say absolutely nuts, but there's something wrong with her and I think it shows up there in the last two or three questions at the end there. So that's the fascinating part that I found in this and you guys nailed everything else. So if you like what we're doing, please subscribe. Just click the whole thing down there and hit the bell so you know when you have a new one come out. All right, we're good? Yeah, I'm good. All right. See you guys next time. See you.