 Thank you so much for sharing this great project and so many great ideas. I would like to call to stage our panelists or our response team, two of whom have already spoken yesterday. So welcome Tim and welcome Cecilia. And we are happy to introduce also Yasemin, a Czech graduate. She is together with Marmara University and will be joining us today. Thanks so much. So definitely where Tim left us yesterday, where you said great things happened outside of your comfort zone. So this is as a designer, definitely outside of my comfort zone. And I think also in a way as Istanbul to really listen to the words of the kids in such kind of in the rawest way is also I think it's a little unsettling. So it's really nice to see these two presentations. I think that challenge at least to a designer how we kind of operate in our offices talking to the client only if possible very kind of controlled conversations. So you know things can move efficiently. So what we have seen I think a very inefficient process that Hector described or what you would call a very inefficient process. But a very efficient of course process to build a community which is something that is something that I would really want to see put into practice in my environment also. I'm sure it has happened but I haven't witnessed it. So this is somehow a craving for me. So in that sense I'll ask my first question to Yasemin and him that she will kind of ask also to the presenters. You are teaching public administration and we have seen efforts to make it understandable with the Children's Istanbul team trying to make it understandable to children with Hector trying to communicate it with the community to them get a project moving. Is it really that complicated? I mean I'm really curious is it really that complicated public administration that I know nothing about it in a way like when I sit and think I decide that I'm ignorant. Why and what are the tools could be introduced that actually it is not that impossible to kind of understand the steps that creates a E-mar plan or kind of a building a zoning plan in Istanbul. Hello. First of all I would like to thank you for being in such a place. Now public administration is actually a place that I've been in since then. I'm a city council. I started to think about it 11 years ago on Children's and Public Administration but it's been 5 years since I started to work in this area. It's been about 4 years since I started to work in public administration. I started to work on the size of the children's public administration. I actually saw something like this there. In public administration in Istanbul, in the work I do with public administration children actually are very sick. They really want to do something. But because there is no child policy, because it is not produced, they can do things that are not connected to each other. They have very serious problems with their own visions. They know how to reflect on their strategic plans. Because they don't have any understanding of the child. They don't have a relationship with each other. This creates serious problems in public administration. I understood that there was a serious problem between the plan and the application and the city planning discipline. The city planning discipline is based on how the management is, how the public administration is, and how the local administration is. Since the management is a bit broken up and the city planners have a serious problem with the local administration. They see themselves in a problem about how to explain to the management. And how the management of the city planning is the most important thing in the city. They don't know what to do but they see themselves in a problem with the management of the city. So there is a very serious problem between the two. The reason for this problem is that there was something we found with students in a classroom. There are things that are generally similar to the city in the world. We are 40% healthy, and we plan and design for a person with a strong hand. And we manage that way. The elderly, the disabled, the elderly, the elderly, and at least in Turkey, the children, the elderly, the children, the elderly, the different ethnic groups are not treated very well. And when you are sick or pregnant, you realize that the city is very serious when you are trying. For the sake of my child, I try to be pregnant and then I try to be with my child and try to be with my baby wife. I see that wild side and when I was studying children's drawings when I was studying children's drawings we couldn't breathe very clearly. There is no serious problem in this city. When I was reading the messages when someone heard our voice, as I said before, they wanted to look at the child and it was very good. There was energy in the suppliers but the designers and planners are new to this. I think this community is very valuable when we see that the suppliers are here. When we hear about this with various effects I believe that they will realize how this relationship is going to be. Designers, scientists, and children's developers and the management of the project I believe that this will be a good thing for the private sector. If we get through to Istanbul quickly I am curious about this actually we have a project going on and we have a chance to use it in some of them. Do these children have the same children from different groups in each sector? Who will come from there? Or do you follow the same children who do different tutorials in a few months? Do you have a chance to use it? I will start. I will answer quickly. Everyone therefore when our tutorial program is announced there may be a couple of participants who want to join this tutorial but we are not always following the same children who want to be open who want to join who want to be free who want to join this is more important because it's a question of the family most important is all children and families to be able to participate in this kind of work and to be free is the most important part of this project It is true. As you said, there are certainly some parts of the equipment you use. Even though it is free. We also use our own equipment. We try to invite our students and teachers to use our equipment. It is not enough to say, we use our own equipment. This is an important thing. Cecilia, this will be a question to you. I would like to ask a question to you next. This will be a little bit of a challenge. But since Bernhard Van Nier has taken on this Urban 95 program, which is super inspiring, obviously it can bring together a whole room. This conversation has just started between planners and early childhood specialists. We saw a very particular method of creating a planning environment in Hector's presentation. But how much is Bernhard Van Nier interested in actually fostering that? Because obviously the earlier panel also very valuable work, very interesting work, starts with the leadership. But at the same time, there is the opposite also. I won't call them opposites, but I would like to also see how much room will you be creating for dealing grassroots. Maybe yesterday I probably didn't have time, but we actually believe that participatory processes lead to sustain any kind of policy. You need to start working in all different levels. So on one side you need participatory processes to sustain social mobility so they can basically support any kind of project. I think that the challenge that we thought with Urban 95 is that usually children under three years old don't speak. So if you're thinking about participatory processes where you want to get babies' points of views, it's kind of difficult because they don't speak language usually, or they're just starting to speak. So we're not thinking about the normal kind of workshops that I've heard today. So that's why we think it's very important to kind of break this silence that we usually think of when we're thinking about early childhood development, that we're thinking about children from zero to five, or we're even including pregnant women. But we're actually thinking about a community that cares about babies, and this means bringing together all different stakeholders and trying to promote different participatory processes that you can invite on one side that direct caregivers that are usually mothers in most societies, of course we want to engage more fathers, and that's part of the challenge. Can we get more fathers' voices? Why aren't Turkish fathers taking care of their babies directly? Is there anything in the public space that we can make differently so we can engage more fathers to come together and take care of their children and play with their children and interact with their children? Are we doing something differently about elderly people, usually in many different societies in the world, the main caregiver are usually grandparents? And just to give you an example, because we do have many positive experiences of participatory processes, especially in Latin America, we were talking with Pedro this morning and there's a lot of things going on in Brazil, in Lima, in Bura, in many of the cities in Bogotá. And I think one of the interesting things that we realize is, for example, many of the elderly caregivers, they say that one of the main requirements in public space is to have access to bathrooms. And this sounds ridiculous that this would be one of the barriers for many, like, all caregivers to use public space in a more frequent way, but this is definitely one of the key issues for many elderly people to use and to spend more time in public space. So I'm just sharing a couple of examples, but I do want to say that there's a huge tension between participatory processes and the speak that many times municipalities need to promote in order to implement programs. And we need to find ways, and I would be curious to know which has been the timing of these participatory processes, because, of course, ideally, we're all involved in designing all these beautiful things, but I see many different tensions. On one side, you get these great ideas. You get a lot of engagement from the community. They are empowered to support the idea. But on the other hand, also, you may be creating expectations that it's very hard to accomplish many times because of the cost of the kind of ideas that come up. So I think we need to find a way that we can deal better with these participatory processes that can gather different views from different stakeholders, put together a plan, reach a social consensus about different ideas. But you also need to find a way that experts can make those ideas be more cost effective, because sometimes the tension there doesn't allow us to implement things. David, I guess you have to answer. I'm not sure if I have an answer. I feel like I've learned a couple of things that we have with Hector, from people who do work in community organizations, who draw a very strict distinction between, I think, what is oftentimes our notion as designers and planners of a participatory process that is attached to a single project and that is organized through a mechanism to gather feedback, whether that's a meeting or a survey, that then is distilled from some kind of consensus that is then, in theory, implemented versus a process of what they would call building power, where there is an ongoing effort to build the capacity and the agency of people in a neighborhood, such that when the municipality comes to them, it's not the beginning point. They are ready to meet them with their own notions and ideas that doesn't result in consensus. Oftentimes, at least where we work, it is a knock-down and drag-out fact and that's, I think, why oftentimes our clients want to spend as much time in a continuous fashion building that power oftentimes to the dismay of us planners and designers. I'll have that in context of this particular project you talked about sort of like where was the timing or the inputting point it wasn't that we, as designers, went there and said, well, would you like a soccer field or a volleyball field and this was more like, what does it take for our community groups to get along and understand the process to build and invest into our parks? So once the community groups had the committee meetings, monthly meetings throughout the planning process, which was 18 months, and they, once they gained sort of the understanding of the park-building process in South Philadelphia that is very specific, which is sort of making the policy public, which is something that you're talking about, then the issue wasn't so much about, oh, we have this beautiful rendering, we're afraid that the community will expect, you know, $7 million project when we only have $2 million, right? Like, the community is very much aware of what it takes to raise either $2 million or $7 million or none at all and what that would mean for their coalition. But, I mean, this has been really great, also great kind of awakening for me that this actually is also information that we are doing the right thing that we are trying to build a powerful community around the issues of babies and childhood and communities and that takes a lot of stakeholders and we have a room full of psychologists and early childhood specialists and kindergarten teachers and municipal staff and architects and designers. So, I guess it's a good affirmation as a method that we just need to move forward with it so that I just had to say it because I thought, okay, so this is a good thing to do. So, in that sense that continuing hearing children is of course a very important part of that also and I'm curious actually comments maybe from Tim also I don't know how much you work directly with children and or do you have any kind of methods or questions that you would like to point to to say, yeah, like you should also look at these, these are also good examples of creating agency for children. I think there's a long history of children's participatory planning in urban planning and design some people in this room know of it at an international level the work that came out of UNICEF and the growing up in cities program is probably the most well known and I think, so the place has started to say what have we learned from that model that's a highly participatory model strong focus on the process the direct engagement of children in decision making creating governance or trying to influence decision making governance and I think it's broadly recognised that that model has not succeeded it has not succeeded in any real meaningful way in influencing how cities are built in may have had some marginal benefits in other areas but this is not me talking this is a book that came out last year that described the progress on the influence of city building by children as being glacial these are academics who are working in this field so that's not working we also know there are plenty of examples of so called consultation engagement that are window dressing that are tokenistic that are an idle wheel in the process where a model is produced and from the children somewhere over there and it's called into a room and everybody claps and then everybody does what they were going to do anyway so those are real tensions I think maybe this is some of what you were alluding to this is difficult stuff and so I guess my I'm a skeptic I start from a skeptical point of view and to try and sense what are the questions we are trying to answer here what don't we know what difference do we want to make and how can we find out what we want to know and make a difference in an effective and a fair way and so I think those are the questions we should be starting with not how do we involve children there might be some circumstances where we just don't need to involve children because we have all the answers there might be other cases where we need to go right back to first principles and it sounds to me like Mifflin Square Park is one of those cases because the ordinary you know methods of participation weren't getting to the root of the conflicts in that space so I think that about why question why do we want to involve children and then the how and then how do we do that in a good way since yeah I'd like to ask Jens to contribute because he wanted to and I think it's only fair so please yeah so I'm not representing UNICEF as much as I would in the sense that I'm also just starting there but I also looked at all this previous work that UNICEF did and also confirmed and I'm happy also that Tim raised it I think there has been a time that participation with children has been set so high as an objective whereas I think the cases also show that participation is also rather a meme to get somewhere and to build that citizenship and conversation with children to also actually do something and whereas also you also say like you can just suddenly start participation on a concrete project if there's also a very deep distrust and there's no civic citizenship or there's a lot of things to be fixed so we have to work on both sides I think and I think what I think is very important is to try to build that double level and to actually avoid the tension on a neighbourhood level because I think on a neighbourhood level you can have results quite in a limited amount of time like 5 years for example so you can work with the community to build that trust and dive deep into very concrete projects and to avoid the tokenistic approach for example that is I think also very well described by a lot of specialists already in the 70s and 80s that that's not going to go but at the other side also not expect that you can go immediately to a very refined participation and have results the next year so I think it has to be present both and it can be very feasible on a neighbourhood level. Thank you so much. What do you want to say? I want to add something to involve children in the development of this project now we are trying to hear the voices of these children, hear the management, hear the planters, hear the documents etc. but we also heard that it is necessary that the families also need to hear their children all this work in the process already in the form of work when possible we are also trying to provide the maximum family participation because it is not visible actually the families also very much children's problems we witnessed that they were not aware of this this great metropolis has a lot of possibilities the families who think that they are involved in this are actually more aware of the real needs of the children therefore when the children are involved these families also need to find a way to heal their hearing there was a very interesting example do you want to tell in detail I remember yes we all remember one of our workshops is in Istanbul in a foreign country children living in Istanbul where do you take them where do you have time to have fun they do group work five or six people we ask them and we want them to prepare a meal but we have a few conditions first of all it is important not to spend any money or spend a lot of money in Istanbul children's meal a boy with a cooperation from a 3% economy company we all know in the group there was no exchange between other children and they felt very bad because they went Gülhane Park, Galata Bridge, Fish, etc. We were speaking in an equal language from this square. She started crying because she couldn't even speak. She was a child with a strong relationship until that time. We tried to understand what was going on. I don't know anyone who can speak. She started crying and wanted to go. We talked a little bit and we talked later with her mother. Until the end of her studies, she took me there immediately. She took me to the museums and museums she wanted. I said I don't know anyone who can speak. We left her to go to the museum to see what happened. But she didn't go. They were going to go to the museum. This was a very cold and lonely example. But we were living in a similar way. After her studies, she joined her family and asked their children questions and comments. But what they heard from the children is more than what they heard from us. It's so different. Because there are all kinds of things. Children are always very fond of it. But I think it's a society that I respect the most. I love it, it's cold and lonely. When there is a chance to listen, to hear, to understand, they feel very serious. Thank you very much. If anyone wants to ask questions, we can answer them. This one. Hello. My name is Mahatep Elan. I'm a teacher. We had a workshop with Sibelian. I was curious about the result then. Now I'm curious. At the end of these workshops, according to different age groups or different religious groups, do you have any certain differences in perception and expectations? What are your thoughts? Can you share with us? Thank you, father. Do you have any differences in perception? Of course, there are differences in perception. Of course, there are differences in perception as they change their needs. But first of all, if you try to draw the bottom line, the difference in social economy is the most. The difference in perception is the most. The difference in social economy is the difference in background. That's what we see the most. The children who are in the story, the children who are not in the story, maybe we can separate them, the children who are in the story. There are children who are in the story with a lot of communication. There are children who are connected to the place. When they are not connected to the place, when they are connected to their place and when they are connected to their place, they are faced with something. When we think of the biggest perception, we think of the biggest difference when we think of the biggest perception. I don't know if there is anything to add. I can add just one thing. If you remember the work you did with the families, they told us very good stories. They told us stories about the balcony and the balcony with the wooden roof. They told us stories about the balcony. Think about it. There is no other story than the park where we can live. There is no other story to tell. Stories are very important in terms of personal development. They tell the story of the children in the neighborhood. Even in the drawings of the children, they don't understand anything. They tell a great story. What they want to motivate us is something that can be a story. We have this peculiar reverse expectation. The more privileged you are in the city, the less stories you have about the city. The less attractions you get to have. Is that something that you have seen? In a way, our conclusion is that you need to help disadvantaged kids. Obviously. But there has to be some focus on kids who also end up growing in middle class sterilized environments. They are also suffering. I don't know what the right terminology is. I'm curious what you have seen around the world. I think what's interesting, and I would also like to respond to our friend from the TP municipality, I think it's interesting that when you're analyzing data, why one of our key components is data analysis, is that you take into account all the needs of your city, all the needs of your neighborhood. You're always going to have these gaps. Of course, you're going to prioritize the families that have more vulnerabilities, because usually that's the mandate of a municipality. But you also need to take into account what's happening in the rest of neighborhoods, especially if you're thinking from a public life point of view. I think that participatory process to identify some of these gaps. So what I'm trying to say is that it's also very important to have a regular analysis of administrative data that you're currently collecting. But I also think there's an important need of analyzing this different kind of data that allows you to have inputs on understanding what kind of problems you're dealing in a specific neighborhood. I think this is very common what you just described on the difference between many, at least in many of the countries that we're living, that we're working in India, again in South America, but I would say even in some of the experiences that we have in Israel, for example, you might see that this gap is basically depriving the richest kids of enjoying public space. So what are we doing from a regulation point of view to change this should be a question that from a policy-making point of view we should always be addressing. So when you're dealing with managing a city, you're dealing with managing all different kinds of problems, as this is definitely one of the challenges. How does that resonate in the North American context? Well, I find this also very striking about the rich kid crime, and it definitely reminded me of a social psychologist that, Ellen Hector, we've been very inspired by and lucky to be able to collaborate with, named Dr. Mindy Fulok, who writes very much about how both mental and physical health is something that is socially produced. And one thing I think this brings up is that if you are an urban planner or a city official, it actually is a different type of risk than maybe Tim was talking about, but it's actually a risky thing to really listen to young people because one of the things you're going to hear about is the fractures of your own society that surrounds you. And so whether that's a fracture of class or especially in the U.S. context, a fracture of race. And so there is, I think, really important discussions about how the production of whiteness and white supremacy is also a process of cutting oneself off from the environment that one needs to be socially and physically healthy. It reminds me of a project that we were working on with young people and one student for whatever reason really wanted to build a wall. And this, of course, is a charged architectural feature maybe forever, but certainly in today's United States. And there was an argument that came out and I remember one young woman yelled at the top of her lungs and I always remember this, you can't have your own private built environment. Right? No matter how tall your built wall is, no matter how many spiky wires are on top, you cannot accomplish that. And I think many of us live in denial of that fact. Okay, it's getting very passionate. But we have to end soon, so I'll take one more question from the audience. Yeet, come help us. Again to Damon and Jay and also getting back or lowering back to 95 again. I think you also interviewed or included parents of young children and babies and so on, where their demands went beyond the park because when you discuss the park you also discuss access to park, safety around the park. In our case we heard about safety issues more around the park than inside the park so I wonder your experience on that whether they went beyond the park limits about their demands of the neighborhood and so on. I think in my own practice our work definitely involved talking and working with young people. It has been less about sort of documenting what young people demand but just us as designers documenting the process of their learning. So I think that's what our presentation was trying to focus on. With hopes that that shares some practical information in our design industry because as designers we have this aspirational goals. As a brown women innovation immigrant descent I imagine what this democratic anti-racist space looked like as Damon was mentioning the only way for me to find out is to talk to brown kids who are very young as well as talk to brown grandmas who are very old and sort of understand their issues and mobility, play all the good technical aspects that I need to learn and interpret as a designer. So yeah, I think that it really depends on what their quote unquote demands are but we are diligently always documenting what they want in a specific spatial setting but also as a studio practice we've been spending much more time on like how do communities learn to own their own and sort of change the course of building their own environment. And in terms of safety no doubt, right it would usually be like a real waste of time unless we began the conversation saying we know everyone wants the park to be safer we know everyone wants the park to be cleaner let's talk about some other things right now and so for example, funny enough in the project that we showed the client had received and raised enough money just to commission us to design the park but I think not telling their foundation sponsors what they told us was that if we wanted the job we also had to produce a plan for housing in the neighborhood and the retail and the public space of the neighborhood and so we were maybe dumb enough to take this on and certainly it was something where there were some people who became involved in the process who wanted to talk about nothing else than building a fence around the park maybe electrical if possible and so I think that our best response there is not necessarily to say well as designers we don't think you should have a fence you don't have a fence now for 100 years but in fact actually find the other voices within these organizations to say well actually I don't really think that's a good idea and to try to use our tools as designers making drawings, making alternatives of what it could be to facilitate that kind of internal deliberation alright thank you so much another coffee break five yeah looking forward