 You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. With predators, what they'll do is, and this has a flip side because you'll have a predator that likes boys 7 to 10. When that boy reaches 10 and they're developing and they're moving on then predators will literally what they'll do is they'll hold on to that 10-year-old because they've worked hard to break down the barriers of that child and then what they'll do is they'll use him to facilitate younger boys to come in and there were certain predators that I were with that just wanted to get so close that they could potentially sort of like smell that child, do you know what I mean? Because that's what really excited them. When you save one child then it becomes an obsession you want to save more, do you know what I mean? You feel as though well, hold on a minute, I've been in the most horrendous situation I know I can do this, do you know what I mean? And that's what keeps you going. I befriended somebody and we eventually moved into a particular network and when we moved into this network on the day that I met these people for the very first time and there were six of them, they brought a 12-year-old boy into the flat and they wanted me to have sex with that boy. That's where the pressure is like it's through the roof James, it's through the roof because I've got six predators there who are absolutely, they've gone. Do you know what I mean? They're sexually sort of so perverse and active. We'd spend six hours looking at all these sort of child images. The computers are a wash of material. I've got evidence all over the floor and all this sort of stuff and yet at the end of the day I've got to hold this boy and I've got to protect this boy. I can't take back, sadly I can't take back what's happened to the boy previously, do you know what I mean? It's the here and the now. All I know is that whilst I'm here no one's going to touch him and that he's safe. I don't think you're going to stop it. I don't think it's something that you're going to say, do you know what, we're going to wipe this all out and it's never going to happen again, it's a bad dream. But it's going to be there and it will be there for life forever. But we're on. Today's guest we've got Ian James, how are you? Nice to meet you. I've done over 200 podcasts Ian and this one is probably one of the darkest. Like you were released a book called Save a Child. You were an undercover pedophile where you worked undercover to catch pedophiles. You had to become one to catch them. You've helped potentially save 100 kids lives. You put so many different people in prison. Yes, it's had that job too many but if it wasn't for you you wouldn't be able to help save those innocent kids. But first and foremost how are you? I'm fine, I'm okay. Obviously that time has gone. Do you know what I mean? So I'm doing other stuff now. But yeah, it's a very dark subject. But hopefully we can still learn from things that have gone on in the past. And I do think that at the end of the day it's all about sort of education and awareness. So parents being unaware of that. There are people out there sadly who want to abuse their children. Yeah, that's a sad thing. And I think back in the day maybe 10, 20 years ago, 30 years ago I think a lot of that stuff was kind of swept under the carpet. But now a lot of people are coming forward and it seems to be rife just now how much frequently that actually goes on. People may be oblivious to it because it's never really happened to them or their kids. But as you know, you were at the forefront and you know how dangerous it is out there. Yeah, I think 20 years ago it was a subject that no one really wanted to talk about. And if it didn't affect your child then it didn't. You know what I mean? You just left it alone. I think as time's gone on and I think certain high profile cases have really helped potentially victims coming forward and speaking and agencies and organizations working together to save children. Do you know what I mean? So I do think that socially now people are a little bit more aware but still there's that complacency of it's not going to happen to us. So I think, yeah, 20 years ago no one would talk about it. And it would be very difficult. And I think the legislation showed it because the legislation wasn't there to properly deal with the problem. Whereas sort of 2003 onwards you've got the sexual offences out which covers a wide range of offences and goes a long way to trying to catch these people. Yeah. I always go back to the start of my guesting where you grew up and how it all began. Okay, so I was born in Cornwall and lived in a little village outside Penzant so you can't get further south-west. It's right down, I think it's about 16 miles from Lanzan so you're right down the bottom. Went to primary school and secondary modern school and then sort of, at that time in the 60s and 70s it was a place where Tim mining was still going. You had your tourism. So for opportunities to do work outside of that as well as fishing industry. I decided to move away and join the police and it's a big step because you're sort of like very much in your sort of environment of the West Country in Cornwall and you're like in this bubble and then suddenly I go to London and it's like the big wild world. So yeah, so I went there as a cadet. Because of my age of 18 I sort of went on a short cadet ship and then joined the police and then literally that's it. I just stayed in the police in the Met for about sort of just over 10 years, bought in like 12 years and then from there I then moved up to Cleveland Police. What was it like going out into the police for the first time? Yeah, interesting. I mean because from a discipline point of view like even I always go back to something that happened to me when I joined the police and you go to the barbers and you get your haircut but it's not a normal barbers it's a barbers that just cut police of sort of new recruits hair and it was a case of sitting in the chair and I just went can I have a bit off here and a bit off there and it just went and it was just short anyway. That was a shock because I never really had short hair before. But yeah, it's when I joined in the late 70s so it was 1978 when I joined. There was still a lot of like importance of like you're joining the police so you must know the difference between right and wrong. You're going to be tested at various times. It was a multicultural sort of environment and when I went to Stoke Newington it was basically 95% black Afro-Caribbean and the rest was a mixture of the Asian community, the Irish. It's a massive culture shop. What kind of crimes were you doing? What kind of criminals were you catching back then? It was your street robbers, your pickpockets, your burglars and then as I escalated within the sort of like the CID world we were dealing with rapes, sexual assaults, robberies and stuff like that. How hard is it to see all that kind of through your first few years? Does that affect you straight away or do you kind of get used to it? I think you get used to it. It's like when you see your first dead body, it's a bit of a shock. But then sadly at Stoke Newington there was quite a lot of murders over a period of time so you were regularly seeing dead bodies and you sort of like come accustomed to it. You sort of like switch off even though you have your empathy but you tend to switch off because that's how you have to deal with that sort of like grief. Do you become cool then towards the world? Your personality changes a little bit I think because again you're trying to like sort of be a professional and deal with what you've got to deal with. Sadly the person dies. You know sometimes it can be quite horrific because it could be a fire or it could be a stabbing but they're both like quite severe. Was that much counseling and stuff back in the 70s and 80s for police officers? I don't think it was. No, no. For being honest, no I don't think there was. There wasn't any sort of like counseling or support as such. I think it was a case of you had to deal with it. You would talk to your colleagues and you would chat about probably your experiences that you've had and that was a way of like overcoming potential some issues. I think as time went on then there was a total mindset of like do you know what professional people can be affected by grief? Did you, you can down, see when she started moving through the ranks because you're very well respected in a police force. See when you started moving down the ranks. Did you have a certain path you wanted to choose or did everything just kind of fall into your place? I didn't, if I'm being honest, I didn't like traffic and I wasn't really involved. I didn't like being involved in traffic offences and stuff like that. So I was very much keen on the CID world, the criminal world. Do you know what I mean? I liked being involved and trying to track down robbers and people that rob on the street and burglars and stuff like that. The crime is what I liked. I sort of enjoyed that sort of environment really. Were you undercover before you went into the undercover opium? No, no I didn't. I sort of, my undercover world started sort of like in 1990. That's when it sort of really started to take shape and take off and that was because I went into a particular department when I moved up north to Cleveland and I joined a squad and from there that's how I developed my sort of undercover skills there. But I was quite fortunate that I would say I was very fortunate to work in the West End of London so I pleased Soho, Oxford Street, Regent Street but so in particular that's a real eye opener from a sexual point of view and for all the things that were going on in the 70s and the 80s. Yeah, a lot of drugs prostitution. A lot of prostitution. You've got your homosexual sort of like environment. They were known as rent boys at the time. They had all sorts of vulnerabilities. Do you know what I mean? But they weren't viewed as vulnerable sadly at that time. So that environment sort of stood me in good stead for later when I went into this dark world because that definitely sort of helped me to deal with certain issues especially in the sort of overt homosexual scene where it can be quite like full-on. What about informants? Did I read that you used to work with a lot of informants? Yeah, like anything as a good detective you would always try to sort of build up a working relationship with informants and yeah, I sort of had some reasonable results and these people, yes they were criminals but they decided to give some information. I enjoyed that. I enjoyed that side of it. I think the whole thing of being a detective back in the day that's what it was all about. It was about running informants. Sort of like you're very much on a line but you're not crossing the line and that's where you sort of focus your attention and I was fortunate enough to be a detective in plaster in East London which again was a very good sort of like working ground for building up that relationship as a detective. That's an experience. See for an informant, do they still get to give you information but get away with what they're doing themselves? No because at the end of the day they knew that if they've been involved in stuff then that's not a green light that they get away with stuff do you know what I mean? And it's a difficult one, you know? It's a difficult one because at the end of the day you're not really knowing what they're doing but they know that if they get caught, they get caught. How do you befriend an informant? Is it catching them and then talking to the administration or do they come to you? Various ways. They might just pick the phone up and phone and then you just pick the phone up and it's just by pure luck that you hit off. Do you know what I mean? It's just by pure luck or they might have been arrested or whatever. So there's all sorts of... But having said that, there's all sorts of reasons why informants will talk. Do you know what I mean? Do you lose respect for people like that or are they trying to nourish them to say that they're doing a good job? Because what's your main set getting into that kind of world? I think I suppose in a way it builds your credibility up as a detective because you might have some informants and come with that there's jealousies because people will think, oh, you know, he's got a couple of informants and one thing and another. Do you know what I mean? So I used to view it as like it was part of being a detective in that time. I mean, it's totally changed now because obviously there are particular units that deal with it. So it's taken away from a detective in the normal office. But in the normal office, part of being a detective was that you had to go out there, you had to meet people, you had to talk to people, get your face known around the area and then eventually, if people come across and want to give you information, then you've got to look after that information and protect them and all that sort of stuff. That's one of amongst fees. But back in the 70s, 80s, they said it was like a code where nowadays snitches kind of get put in ditches, but nowadays it's kind of, it's like there's probably more informants than police officers now. Did you see a massive shift from 70s, 80s? Was it harder to get an informant in the 80s when it would be now or is it just the same? Well, I mean, my sort of dealing with informants finished sort of round about, I would suggest about 2006, potentially. That's when I finished. But I would say that when you go back on or about fees, the old school criminal very much was, they didn't like drugs, they didn't like to get involved in drugs. But yet they were quite happy probably to have a shotgun and go across a pavement and rob a bank. But when it came to drugs, they didn't have that. I think in time, they suddenly realised that it was probably easier to make money in drugs than what it was like doing your armed robberies and all that sort of stuff. And I think that's where it sort of shifted because the money was bigger. So in the 90s then, were you enjoying your job? Were you loving it? There was no stress? Is your happy catching drug dealers, murderers? Yeah, I mean, when I moved into, I moved up north to Cleveland and due to my wife and two children, we started, you know, and it was great. And then I moved into what was known as the regional crime squad at that time. And that's when I sort of got really introduced to the undercover element of it. And then, you know, like I mentioned in the book, I met up with somebody who I've known for a long time and I knew was an undercover officer. I didn't really know what he specialized in and he was the one that introduced me into this dark world. So, yeah. And that was the first thing you went undercover when you went into the dark side of it? No. When I first went in, I did just sort of normal drugs, guns and... What was that like? Yeah, it was good. It was okay. I enjoyed it. I mean, it's exhilarating to be sort of like as a criminal, you're in amongst them all and, you know, they get caught and one thing or another. I really enjoyed it. But where I really got a lot of good satisfaction is when I went into the dark world. That's when I really sort of... Because I had to work so hard to be accepted. Not that I didn't have to work hard in the other stuff, but with this, this is a total different ball game. Who do you think it sees at manipulating the criminal like drug dealers, murderers or pedophiles? Um... Is it harder to be accepted into? Definitely. The predators, child sex offenders. Yeah. Yeah. I think because they've got a lot to lose. They're very cautious. They're very suspicious. They're very suspicious because they don't necessarily think you're a police officer. They're more likely to think you're a journalist and they're going to be named and shamed, that type of thing. So they're quite insular and sometimes what you've got to do is you've got to sort of manipulate them to sort of be accepted. And it's so difficult because you'll only have a small window of opportunity to do it. And then if you're not successful, then theoretically you're finished because you can't go back in. Do you know what I mean? So there's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of pressure to sort of research him or him. It was mainly males I was up against. But you're researching these males and you've got to identify, well, where am I going to meet them? Am I going to meet them on a bus? Am I going to meet them in a cafe? And then what am I going to do? Because it's all about your communicational skill and it's all about sort of trying to quickly get a hook where they're going to speak to you. And it might be three months down the line where you actually talk about stuff that you don't want to talk about. Do you know what I mean? And so, you know, it's just that I can't go up to you, James, in the street and say, hi, my name's Ian, I'm a paedophile because it doesn't work that way. So it's that very drip, drip sort of like, way that you would do it. So you've went from two new kids, wife, pretty decent job under cover, catching criminals, and then an offer comes to you. What was going through your mind then when you say, look, you want to go into that world where to try and catch paedophiles, save children, did you question it or did you just accept straight away? It's a big thing. And I think certainly in the undercover worlds, you were always told that you would never tell your partner or wife what you were doing. And it was more of a safety mechanism. But in this world, it's really different. And I felt that if I was going to go into this sort of arena, then I duly had a right to know what I was going to be doing potentially. Because I think it's important because there would be dark days. There would be days where, like it wasn't either going well or I'm with somebody and he's telling me this, that, and the other and it's not nice, do you know what I mean? And then if I go home and my wife doesn't know what I'm doing, then potentially she's thinking, well, what's wrong with you? Do you know what I mean? So yeah, it was one of them where I had to go through certain steps where I wanted my wife to sort of understand what I was thinking of doing. And you're right. We had two young children and that in itself presents all sorts of problems and issues. And I thought to myself, no, you know, like if Julie's okay, then I know at least then we're all right. And Julie's a very strong character. So, you know, Julie will certainly like keep me straight. And what did she say? Was she 100% backing of your decision? She was. She was worried about obviously me bringing stuff home. And I said, no, that wouldn't happen. I would always try to like create like little barriers where everything would be left at the office or the work or wherever I was deployed. Do you know what I mean? Sadly, there's times when I've got to have a phone. Whoever invented the phone, do you know what I mean? It was a nightmare because the mobile phone I had to have with me 24 seven because some of these individuals, they just phone you straight away and say, look, I want to do this. Do you know what I mean? And then that's your safety mechanism to sort of hopefully tell your operational team, look, something's going to happen tomorrow and we've got a plan and we've got to prep. Do you know what I mean? So there's times where as much as I tried to keep everything at the office, there's times where I had to have it at home. What year did you start that scene? This would have been 92. And at later see, it wasn't as bad back then. What was that where there was more people were talking about. It was kind of swept under the carpet. How many was it only for it joined that unit at that stage? Yeah, if you can imagine, you know, being an undercover officer, everyone loves to bind the drugs and the guns and that excitement because it's like adrenaline. But when you're actually sort of wanting to infiltrate a child sex offender, then talking about it, it's not really a talkable subject. No one wanted to talk about it. And a lot of people wouldn't want to do this work. A, because they were married. B, they had children and C, they couldn't force themselves to actually speak to these people because they hated them. They didn't want to speak to them. So to do this work, I knew there was a lot of barriers I had to sort of overcome. And I think that was the challenge. The challenge was that I knew that not many people could do it and that we were like a little family within a family and we helped out each other. What was the first job by the same? How do you then build up relationships? Who was that half in the first team? Well, if I can say that the first thing I had to do was I had to look at images. And when you look at an image of a child, whether it's a naked child or whether it's a child that's subject of sexual abuse, it's not nice. But I had to look at it to train myself so that if someone showed me a picture or someone showed me a video that I would like hide my inner self where I don't like this, I don't want to see this. And what I've got to do is I've got to look through the picture, look through the video and literally block everything out and sort of have this acting wrong. So you've got to take it so extreme because if you think about it, if I can't deal with that image, then I would say that a predator would identify me to say I might put a child at risk. So we would always say if you can't deal with images, you can't deal with it. So your first big hurdle are your images and it's horrendous because you've got to keep looking at them. You've got to sort of have thought processes in your head to overcome sort of like the nastiness of it and your face has got to like shut everything out, do you know what I mean? Because they look at your face, your body language and if they don't like what they see, if they were to show you videos or fucking throats getting dry listening and that's kind of rough to understand that, like if someone's showing you videos or photos and you turn away, that's a sign that you're undercover or you're a journalist. Yeah, I mean it could be anything but they certainly wouldn't like it because if you're on one hand you're saying I love children from a sexual point of view and yet someone shows you a picture and you don't like looking at it and you don't want it to be so that's why it's so important and then of course your hardcore stuff your videos, the explicit the screams of a child I mean it's horrendous James, do you know what I mean? But at the end of the day you have to train yourself to deal with that if you can deal with that, that's fine then you've got to talk about it then you've got to talk about it sexually so it's not just about seeing an image do you know what I mean? So an image could be in front of you for a while with this individual and you've got to condition your mind to be calm and those situations are else you'll block up on potential and you don't know when that image is going to come do you know what I mean? So they could just like drop it on you or you might know it's going to happen so you can like prepare yourself but sometimes you don't and it's just there what do you think, do you know what I mean? It was the first kind of bread at our sex offender you came across when you knew you were going to end on showing your own images and videos what then is going through your mind were you ever thinking I could kill you or were you trying to be as professional as you could be to then get to the bigger targets and try and expose more people? I think the biggest enjoyment I got from this was actually seeing them how they really were because when normal police go and interview them they're just like a normal human being when probation service speak to them, interview them they're just a normal human being when I see them, they are in their offending mode they're switched on and they are like a coiled spring so I can actually see how they are hacked at the height of when they're out there when they're watching a boy or a girl when they're in the street, when they're in a retail park when they're on a beach when they're really switched on that's how you see them as they really are and when they're engaging, when they're talking to you quite explicitly about sex and stuff like that that to me, I think that's brilliant because I've actually managed to get into their environment and I can actually see how they really are could you go to a park can I swim in and notice Peterfield straight over here? I think sometimes you can I mean when you're with an individual and you go to a park what I always say now to people is wherever a child wants to go then potentially a predator can be because predators will always go where children are so if it's a park and if there's a train that goes around the park or if there's a pond and they're feeding the ducks that's a way of like communicating whether it's to a parent or to an actual child itself retail parks are now if you think most retail parks now are catered for everything so they cater for children so children can go into shops and play games and stuff like that they're so focused on playing the game that they're oblivious to their surroundings so a predator can just get as close as possible and there were certain predators that I was with that just wanted to get so close that they could potentially sort of like smell that child do you know what I mean because that's what really excited them to try and understand like sex offenders and predators, their methods there's a lot of them deranged there's a lot of them quite smarter than what people give them credit for you see these pedophile hunters videos and they're quite somewhere I mean right in the head where you see them and you think they're not right, did you see that or was a lot of people you would never expect to be predators I think the days are gone and certainly when we started doing it it's like you have your own sort of stereotypical sort of person that you think is but they might not necessarily be the person I mean when I was a kid growing up you know my mum sort of gave me this description of a person that I used to keep I had to keep well away from not because they were a sexual pervert or anything like that but that was just that horrendous sort of picture so I had a picture in my head of like what I thought was a dangerous person just when we started doing it and even now they come from all walks of life so they can be professional people non-professional, you name it it's different now How did you get to boldest trust at the start, did they approach you or did you approach them, how does it work if I give you an example then so most of the people I were up against were quite high risk which means they'd been in prison they'd come out and it was a case where all your agencies were monitoring them and sort of like basically protecting the community but they still have a right to be out in the public domain so what they would do is they would sort of research them they would follow them build up a bit of a sort of like a pattern of where they go and then it was down to me to basically work out well where is the safest place for me to engage and have a conversation with an individual or initially to try and sort of speak to somebody and then sort of build that relationship so for an example this particular one person went into a cafe and would always be there for around about half an hour-ish and I knew that was a place where I had to literally go in we did some more research because he had a particular phone so I had the same phone and then it was a case of like I go in there very short, I just go in there he's there, there's other people about I had a carrier bag, I had a mobile phone which was exactly like his and I said would you mind just having a look at that whilst I get myself a cup of tea and I know that when I was waiting for my tea he was looking at the carrier bag he saw the mobile phone and when I came back I then said I'm having a real problem trying to get me contact numbers on the phone and I had a paper with all my contacts and stuff like that and they loved to be in control they loved to be in charge of somebody and they loved to show that they've got how can I say sort of like knowledge and experience in something so he grabbed the phone and he just entered all my numbers in the phone and we started talking talking all that sort of stuff and then we build that relationship up and then we then carry on and once you start building that relationship obviously it will get darker, deeper and the whole kind of begins like when you're starting through that how do you train yourself to be calm in those situations once things if you're talking about hearing kids screaming I've got kids so when you say that it's in my mind thinking fuck I understand that you've got to do that job but how do you condition your mind to then to adapt to that basically you have to be professional okay because I know that at the end of the day if I do anything wrong then the operation finishes but then it paints me in a bad light so I know that what I've got to do is I've got to remain calm I've got to get the evidence because I know that this is the one opportunity where his guard is down because he's comfortable with me so it's a case of like you've just got to and again you've got to be very careful with this because at the end of the day what you're doing is so I like boys between the ages of 7 and 10 what I've got to do is I've got to give examples of my offending behavior and how I met those individuals and how I broke down their barriers and how I had sex with them because he wants to know that now all what I say is a lie do you know what I mean what he could tell me is a truth so what I've got to be very careful is I've got to like only give him so much and then he'll give me something and then I might give him something else if I keep feeding him with stuff then potentially at court they might turn around and say you've overstepped the mark and we're going to throw the case out do you know what I mean so you've got to be very careful how you drip stuff in there's a lot of court cases do you think the sentence here is a bit lenient in my eyes are very lenient people are getting 2 or 3 years so much less like maybe drugs or whatever yes drugs is bad but I've seen friends getting 8-9 years for a bit a coke or whatever and then you're getting pedophiles out in 2 years and you're thinking am I not going to rape kids? I think there's a guy who had over 500,000 images of kids and get 12 months and I'm thinking I think the problem is you've probably got well you can't put a figure on how many people are online because I think online is a wash of it you can't get material and because there's so many out there you'll have all sorts of various organizations police enforcement areas that are specifically looking at online investigations that they'll be getting loads of people but at the end of the day there's not enough prisons do you know what I mean so there'll be people with thousands of thousands of indecent images that ultimately at the end of the day 20 years ago but more than likely might not go to prison now because there's so many of them and then that's just people who are online there's a hard core and I think there's even now this is just my view I think there is a lot of hard core people out there who won't go near online because they know that there's a good chance they might get caught so they'll stick away from the computer but they were doing that 20 years ago and many people I was up against that they would say look keep away from the computer because you're going to get caught keep away from it so it was very much they liked that face to face sort of element to it How many definitely levels of sex offenders are there? Has it all come under the one King Dubros? Well I think all child sex offenders are all the same because if you think about it all those that are online and are looking at images that child at that image has been sexually abused so that's a victim and then you've got people who will well if you break it down there'll be family abuse so there'll be sexual abuse within the family and then you'll have predators that will go out there and will be friends vulnerable women and then they'll meet up with the children and rape the children and then you've got your online so there's just a washroom there's just so many of them What's the longest case you've walked on the cover floor? I did a job that went on for about a year but we were looking at different people different types of people and you know I was in and out and there was one particular person that was very high risk very dangerous regarded as one of the worst ones about at that time and he you know we managed to make disclosures to various people because he was getting very close and we had to take that decision to sort of like make that disclosure So say when you're going on a case for a full year when you're 10 years deep into that job how does your whole energy change how does your whole persona change towards your wife towards your kids that when you're going on the job at the start you're probably loving it I'm catching criminals but then when you go so far deep into the darkest side of the world you can have a go how does that change everything in your life? It does change it changes you as a parent it makes you more aware of your surroundings and where you're going and where your children are because it does change you I think I had support when I started doing this work which I think was important because I was able to sort of do the work I was doing then speak to the psychologist and he was able to look at me and sort of identify whether I needed to do anything to ensure that my family life was safe do you know what I mean because if you're spending 12 hours speaking to a predator and they're talking non-stop about child sex and how they break down the barriers of a child to do this, that and the other you're listening to this and then suddenly you think oh my god I'm listening to this for so long am I going to change and it was one question that I did say to the psychologist because I said I'm hearing so much stuff here at the end of the day am I going to change and he said you ain't going to change because you said you're different when you say it's changed I actually become you're worried that you're going to start enjoying that suddenly sort of enjoy what you're listening to and potentially look at your children in a different light I mean it's quite shocking you know because you're thinking oh my god is it going to happen to me but the psychologist would say at the end of the day what you've got to understand is you've got to overcome so many barriers to get where they want to be and when you get to the first barrier which is basically do I like children which is what I did I said no so it stops do you know what I mean whereas a predator they'll knock down all these barriers to get where they want to be and that's why they love it because they'll knock down that barrier because they've seen a child that they want to have sex with now they've got to try and like get close to them so they knock that barrier down and so on and so on and so on to have those thoughts and potentially be one well because I think at the end of the day I think it's frightening purely because because it was so full on do you know what I mean and like you're listening to this all the time and I knew I was comfortable do you know what I mean but sometimes you need assurances I knew I was okay and I just think that and I think what really helped was certainly from 92 onwards we had this psychological mechanism support for undercover officers and I think as time went on that went for police in general and I think professional services are the same because you do need support because you you could be affected by it you'll have that vicarious trauma and all that sort of stuff and you need that help so explain what's a pedophile ring then is it people all connected everywhere or what is that actually right okay so well in the pedophile world there's no such thing as a pedophile ring why does it get used that term I think a lot of it's down to the authorities the authorities introduced what I would say as a ring and then sort of pedophilia itself and then obviously grooming so those three terms were very much created by the authorities as such so a ring is actually a network and what a network does is that they will identify each other that they have a similar interest so you might have for example you might have someone in Newcastle you might have two people in Liverpool and then you might have one person in London what links them all together is that they all like girls between the ages of 7 and 10 for example you might have a network either in prison out of prison or where someone might be convicted someone might not be convicted but they just build up this little bit of a connection and then what happens is they will meet up together and they will either share images or they will either go to various places and visit used to be known as spotting you go to a retail part with your fellow network and then you would spot and you would look at particular children that suited your particular interest looking for kids do they kidnap them or what do they do sadly there are people out there who I always say there's a few particular different types of predators you've got one that wants that they want to like identify a vulnerable woman they want access to children they want to spend time sort of befriending them they want to spend time sort of like getting sort of having that sort of support knowing that they are trustworthy person once that wall of bricks has come round and no matter who comes in and tries to knock those bricks down saying for example Ian's not nice, Ian's not good but they say oh no he's fine he's good to me, he helps me he's a good child if it takes a year it takes a year because it's the thrill of the chase on the other side you've got people who I ain't got time for all that I'm going to go out and if I see somebody and I like them I'm going to snatch them, I'm going to rape them and then I've got this big problem what am I going to do now because I've raped this child I'm going to murder them, am I not the example of Roy Whiting Sarah Payne quite a distressing case but at the end of the day he just went out, he kicked his van out, he went out, she just sadly was in the wrong place at the wrong time and yeah but that's what I as people have got these needs that are willing to just act on it straight away with us but I would say that whether you snatch a child, rape them, kill them whether you spend a year sort of like befriending a parent and then moving on to the child, they're both equally as dangerous do you know what I mean it's just that one takes longer than the other so it's even your kind of befriending these people and hearing these stories and will you ever in that sort of situation where they say I'm going to snatch a child today or bring a child to you the time that really I would say and it's only ever happened once in the whole time I've been doing this in the country and that was when we I befriended somebody and we eventually moved into a particular network and when we moved into this network on the day that I met these people for the very first time and there were six of them and they brought a 12 year old boy into the flat and they wanted me to have sex with that boy so what happened there then so again what you've got to do is you always think child safety because if you think about it James if I allowed that boy to be sexually abused what would the public think of me are you on the definite I'm no different am I so I have a duty of care to that child on the flip side when I'm out and about spotting with a predator I have a duty of care to that predator because if he's going to get assaulted by somebody I have a duty because he's in my presence I'm a police officer it's a difficult one but certainly in a flat with a child I have a duty of care to protect that child under no circumstances must anything happen to that child and you know that's where all the pressure comes then because you've got six men in there horrendous because I spent six hours in that flat we were seeing images they were analysing me they wanted to know what I did how I offended blah blah blah all that sort of stuff and then they really are honed on to me and then the more I sort of get accepted more people were coming in so I started off with two males and then because I was getting on so well with them and because I was comfortable with them and they were comfortable with me six males are there then suddenly the main guy gives me a tour of his flat and talks all sorts of sexual innuendo with what they do with a boy and then eventually says look the boy is going to come into the flat and you know you're going to be the first one that's going to have sex with oh I got that 12 how well did they get the 12 because sadly there's children out there who are vulnerable who are targeted who are sort of yeah they're basically sort of all their barriers are broken down whether it's gifts presents whatever it might be you know what I mean so and then the boy is there and the boy is used to that environment yeah which is the sad thing about it all is you're expecting someone to come in who's going to be horrified screaming and shouting but there's no screaming or shouting because the boy this was comfortable for him this was his environment because he'd been so well sort of grim a friend just passed away released a book called Crack Boy where kids as young as 10 used to be in Soho and he used to just get into cars with men with suits and they accepted that leave because they were abused at five and six years old where it became normal yeah and of course sadly in them days they were known as rent boys and you know and because I know the particular area in Soha that was used it was only like a very short couple of streets but again you had all sorts of people going there picking people up so when you're put under that sort of situation at that environment how do you how do you diffuse the situation right well what happened with this particular one we had a bit of a clue that a child might come into the flat and that was introduced to me by the main guy that I met and I met him on a bus for 20 minutes this is how it all started and then once we befriended and once we got on and various things developed then as we're driving down he tells me that I might be here a lot longer than I think because there's going to be a child coming to the flat now I've got an operational team around me so I sort of like create a sort of like a little bit of a delay mechanism because I need to tell them look there's going to be a child coming into the flat so we need to plan for when I say something we've got to act on it and the story I basically had was that I used to look after my mum and I was a carer but if I'm going to be late then I've got to make a call to get someone else to look after the care responsibilities do you know what I mean so and because I introduced that from the moment we're travelling down to actually in the flat with the main guy and he tells me you know like we might have a surprise blah blah blah and I said well I might have to tell you know someone about my care responsibilities oh yeah we know all about that so that's all natural do you know what I mean so when the boy I know the boy is going to come in then I've got it's about me creating the right time to actually say what I want to say to the operational team in full view of all the suspects and then hope that they can get to me so it's all about timing it's all about I make the call the child's going to come in thankfully the main guy ushers the boy to me he's got his arm around me I've got my arm around him so I know he ain't going anywhere I know I'm protecting him because I have a duty to care for that boy and then what I've got to do then is just delay everything slow everything down so that as time goes on I know the police are going to come to the house now that's where the pressure is like it's through the roof James it's through the roof because I've got six predators there who are absolutely they've gone do you know what I mean there's sexually sort of so perverse and active we'd spent six hours looking at all these sort of child images the computer's a wash of material I've got evidence all over the all over the floor and all this sort of stuff and yet at the end of the day I've got to protect this boy and I've got to protect this boy I can't take back sadly I can't take back what's happened to the boy previously do you know what I mean it's the here and the now I've got a all I know is whilst I'm here no one's going to touch him and that he's safe and but then it's a cat and mouse game because at some point I've got to make a decision because if the police don't come out of role so I've got to come out of role and say right okay people just to let you know I'm a police officer and you're all under arrest is that her no but that's what that's what's going through your head going through your head is I've got to save the boy I've got to protect him no one's going to touch him the police know about it the police are coming why are they here because time just slow everything slows down and it's like and no matter what I how I try to create the the actual incident in the book really didn't do it justice because if if I if I said how it really was I don't think anyone would already that fucking bad boy man yeah he was old so and then of course the police come in and then it's like it's a relief isn't it it's a relief that the police have come in everything gets protected boy gets taken away and that's it but you know your head I can't it was fantastic being in that environment purely because I was seeing these people how they really were do you know what I mean evil people who are have no real sort of like compassion for children no more nothing they just want to have sex with this boy do you know what I mean so it was it was I know it sounds it sounds awful but it was great to be in that environment to actually see how they really were because I knew how they really were they were dangerous they were horrendous people and really at the end of the day I knew what kept me going was the fact that I know that you're all going to get locked up you know what I mean so that's what that's what keeps you going and then of course if you save one child which obviously is the purpose of the book you save one child then it becomes an obsession you want to save more do you know what I mean you feel as though well hold on a minute I've been in the most horrendous situation I know I can do this do you know what I mean and that's what keeps you going I can kind of understand that but that you've seen a 12 year old kid where you've saved them from being raped from grown adults where you think if you walk away now how many more kids if you let them into then you sort of blame yourself because I'm trying to understand the method of thinking of going back to that madness and that evilness I think because what it is you save one child and you think do you know what I can do this because I've just done it so I know that this is worst case scenario and this has never happened since so in England and Wales we've never had this situation before and it's worst case scenario it's an investigated officer's sort of nightmare to have like a child in a flat and you've got an operation going like when are we going to like arrest them you know because we don't want anything to happen to the child or you or me but child comes at the top of course what about how much evidence do you need to gather first of all to get a conviction or to take it to court if somebody says I'm sexual attracted to kids you've got all the evidence that's not enough to convict someone not necessarily no because well I think certainly prior to 2003 the legislation that we had and we had to work with was quite poor and I think most people were in the judicial system would probably support that and there was a lot of campaigning a lot of planning because they knew that they had to deal with all sorts of things relating to child sexual activity whether it's sex tourism whether and in 2003 when you're looking at grooming and facilitating and taking photos and then sort of like supplying them, possession of them all we had back in the day was the Vagrancy Act of 1824 which basically said that if you're a public nuisance then we can arrest you or we've got 1956 Sexual Offences Act which were very limited so see when you're getting convictions do you have to give evidence to court or you stole behind a screen do they know who you are then yeah well at times I had to give evidence and at times I'd either be behind a screen or I'd do a video link so yeah but that was part and parcel of the job really you know you should expect that you might have to go to court that you should have to go to court and I used to love the fact that I could go to court because I could basically paint a picture and say like what they really were I used to wear technical equipment as well which is another big thing but being recorded so if I've got recording on me then the risk has ramped up even more because they are very touchy-feely people years well so they might touch me in a way of like trying to work out whether I've got any recording equipment on me so but I used to purposely wear technical equipment because A would protect me but it also protects them in a way because like I can't say anything that is untoward you know what I mean and not only that it would reduce me potentially spending so many days in a witness box at court you're coming across these people and they've given you information that came that the kids that are late from kids would imagine 12 to 13 like how do you go from staying calm to then understand that you need to get a conviction that I'd imagine was there any times you ever felt like crying when people are telling you the shit things that they've done or did you just become so cold I think it goes back to when you join the place when you join the place they always say that your job stops when you actually go to court you give your evidence and that's it you move what a person gets for a sentence because if you did you would literally go putty because there would be times when you think I've got a case that's nailed on and they don't go to prison you'll have another case that and you get a result and they go to prison do you know what I mean so really when you come to being professional you be professional you take it as far as you can you go to court you give your evidence and that's it you have no control over the jury you have no control over the judge and really at the end of the day they get what they get now that particular group I mentioned in the flat I think they got between four and seven years they did half of that I think and then they came out and they carried on again so that's an established network that ain't going to stop you know they're not going to stop and they don't stop so we should be put in place to do you lock them up longer do you cut off their balls I know they do that in America they chemically cut straight but it doesn't really do anything but so what should be in place then for is that a psychological thing that can never be fixed or what's your whole outlook of all that could try and prove that to keep kids protected or do you think it's just going to get worse I don't think you're going to stop it I don't think it's it's something that you know you're going to say do you know what we're going to wipe this all out and it's never going to happen again it's a bad dream but it isn't it's going to be there and it will be there for life forever so what we've got to do is I think it's certainly my view is I think it's a lot about awareness and prevention it's about educating parents because there's a lot of sadly there's a lot of parents out there who are vulnerable and potentially they're the ones who are more at risk because A they've got something that a predator wants which is a child and what they've done is they've probably been in all sorts of sad sort of circumstances which means that they are very much now vulnerable and more likely to be targeted by a predator so it's a case of like making them aware that you know be mindful of dating sites be mighty on online whatever the online site is it could be problem parenting it could be you know bad parenting you know advice on children that type of thing they infiltrate these sort of networks to try and identify a parent that's got a child that fits their profile so when I'm with these predators I will have a profile for a boy or I'll have a profile for a girl I'll have various ages or whatever because I know that I have to mirror that to them because otherwise they're not going to talk to me do you know what I mean so they pray that they aren't just going after the kids they're grooming the parents to get to the kids and that's a process of trying to go through because it's a chase for them that's fucked up man I mean sadly you've got those that I've got time for all that and but at the end of the day you know it's like anything we want our children to basically live their lives to enjoy life to experience life but sometimes we have to be very careful because it's like putting them on a rope you know like if we let them go off and we don't know where they are do you know what I mean it's difficult to pull the rope back because at the end of it they might not be at the end of the rope do you know what I mean they've gone why they're so well protected don't pray that they're not why should you not be on a database that who's round you and who stays near you and who's in the schools and they're so well protected that's kind of sickening in a way well it's a lot better now James than what it was yeah because you've got Sarah's law so Sarah Payne basically sadly because of her death her parents campaigned for Sarah's law which was basically sort of the right for families to know that there might be a predator living in the street do you know what I mean so you've got that and it's very much it works on a par with Claire's law which is again that domestic violence sort of like awareness so there's a lot more organizations out there the schools are very sort of very switched on and you've got binados NSPCC so there's loads of organizations out there and self organizations as well where you've got say parents of victims who want to help other victims do you know what I mean so they've created like groups and stuff like that so there's lots of opportunities for children to make more disclosures for professional people to sort of like really understand what's going on whereas I think back in the day there wasn't that and if you look at all the people now for argument's sake if you've got people within the church area professional people teachers, doctors, police you know within the hospital arena as well they were all people upstanding that people would look at what they said was true but there are predators hidden within those circles there's predators hidden everywhere but now I think there's more organizations out there and I think what's made a real difference as well is that the Jimmy Savile investigation as much as there are probably a lot of pitfalls and a lot of problems you had people that wanted to come out and say what was wrong that they had been sexually abused the sad thing about it they couldn't do it when he was alive because if you think about it you're talking about an individual who had awards had he had friends in government he would raise millions of money do you know what I mean, well respected and then you had victims who sadly through being abused had all sorts of complexities so who are you going to believe or are you going to believe Jimmy Savile do you know what I mean so once Jimmy Savile had gone then you didn't have that problem and not only that you had over a thousand people now all these thousands of pitfalls thousand people that came forward and said that they were abused they didn't know each other do you know what I mean so there's no sort of like collusion these are like I think it made a difference and I think then suddenly it was a wake up call I think sadly I know that there were individuals that probably were caught up in this that probably weren't offending so there's always that danger but at the end of the day it was on a positive note that victims could now come out and have a voice it's like your child's sexual exploitation cases a lot of these kids were vulnerable missing from home had all sorts of problems and no one believed them I had Barbara O'Haraon who was in the she released about the hospital the doctors had a checklist kids from vulnerable homes addiction issues because what happens is usually seeing the kids off is crazy so when the kids used to run away and go to the police station the police actually took the kids back because they were already seeing off is mentally unstable so it was just a checklist so they were drugging the kids experimenting on them killing them raping them people need to understand this stuff I loved that first hand like how can we educate people the people watching now for telltale scenes maybe at the park, at the swimming or out with schools how do we watch the telltale scenes where people can maybe there's red flags is there any? I would say any parent that meets somebody online just think before you start sort of like really engaging always try to I know it's difficult but always try to take a step back you know to not voucher for your phone for argument's sake you know how many people realistically want to give you a top-up voucher for your phone the only reason why they do it is because they want you to be hooked to them if I give someone £20 and it's a top-up for their phone then they're more likely to phone me because I've taken the and it's not only that it shows me in a good light as well because I'm prepared to give my last £20 to them so just be mindful and again what they'll do is they'll test them so they want to go to the shops for 10 minutes well you go and I'll look after the child they're quite cute they won't go anywhere near the child when mum comes back there's no problem mum wants to go into town for an hour comes back, no problem they build it up, they build it up so just be a little bit mindful and careful and if someone questions it then ask them why are you questioning it rather than dismiss it you know why do you think there's something wrong with him what about kids who are doing things like tech-talk and Facebook and stuff like that I know that's the prime example for grooming kids is tech-talk I think any online services with children now unfortunately now I think it's far too big children now children are far more sexually aware but sadly it's easier for them to be groomed as well because of that sexual awareness what do you think about them trying to bring major consent down for sex in the UK from 16 I think even some talks at 12 right well back in the day 100 years ago it used to be 10, 12 they changed it now but then certainly in Europe there are countries where you can have sex with a child with a certain age and you can actually marry a child at the age of 9 in Africa and stuff like that so when we were in the European Union there was a hard-core set of individuals who wanted to lower the age of consent and they were campaigning it purely on the basis of well if we're in the European Union we should all be one so and if you think about it back in the day it was 21 then it went to 18 then it went to 16 so there's campaigners out there who are always trying to look at opportunities to lower the age of consent now we're out of the European Union obviously that might go do you know what I mean so there's always there are a set of hard-core predators out there who are always looking at ways of trying to manipulate the law sort of opportunities to try and be accepted you will never have a predator who will probably say to you I'm sorry for what I do they're not sorry, what they'll do is they'll look at themselves and they'll blame everybody apart from themselves so they'll blame the child because the child will have hot pants on or a short skirt do you know what I mean they'll always look for an excuse to blame the other person to say they're encouraging it never never what they wanted did you ever speak to the player that was after they got a conviction to ask why or to ask no there was times when I had to go back and speak to people because we wanted to know what was going on within the group and stuff like that but no I never spoke to them did you ever like did you ever keep tabs on them you knew they were coming back out or did you have to move to a different area because then your cover would be blown how does it work? I had to move on I actually had to go into a prison and meet a predator there and you can imagine the sort of complexities I'm going into a prison where they have their meetings and I'm meeting someone in prison which at the end of the day the problems there is they don't like predators and yet I'm supposed to be a sympathiser or I could be one and I'm actually meeting someone who's convicted so you can imagine all this potential hostility so there's that arena and then you've obviously got opportunities that I meet other people did you ever come under any threat when you were undercover? no the only threat I had was potentially because again, potentially you've got an opportunity to be sexually assaulted because some of them will have a sexual sort of like behaviour where they'll have sex with a male doesn't mean anything but it's just their sort of like their condition, they just want to have sex so there's always a danger that someone's going to try it on with you and whatever so what you've got to do is you've got to sort of negate that which is easier said than done because if someone comes onto you and starts stroking your leg and you've got to push them away and say look, you know you're not my type, that's a carrot it's a carrot because they'll be thinking well it's okay in this particular area because it's a homosexual gay bar but at the end of the day it doesn't like me so who does he like do you know what I mean? so that keeps the operation going I can't hit him do you know what I mean? I can't because if I hit him then that's it job's finished so it's a case of dealing with that situation I spent a weekend with an individual and there's always a danger of well you know even when I go into a flat that flat am I going to be drugged? there's always a danger of that there's always there is a realistic danger of that so so your sort of issues are yes I could be drugged yes I could be raped, yes I could be sexually assaulted yes someone could take my picture which they did on a particular job they took my picture because someone wanted to see who I was before they met me and you know you have to deal with that I mean how are you going to deal with that someone takes your picture it's downloaded it's on the internet it's gone so if somebody's kind of sitting in the same house all kind of connected is that a lot is there a lot of this happening than people actually expect? well I think I mean I think it's still going on I don't think it's just online I think there's people working face to face and all that sort of stuff because they don't like online so it's still going on but but for me to do this work I can only say that because I had to go through so many hoops and so many barriers and all that sort of stuff you know it's not easy what about the jail trafficking stuff because people have offered to sell your kids? no no but I mean again human trafficking and modern slavery I mean it's rife isn't it and it's so sad to think that people are paying money and not necessarily getting to the end do you know what I mean they might lose their life on route to where their dreams are and then when they eventually get to where they think their dream is it's a different life how did everybody else who was working on this how did all the other agents go on with the ones you started with did they last the pace or did they quit? no no we all naturally lasted our pace and then eventually we left the person that introduced me to this sadly died a couple of years ago and the others are still about obviously I don't know where they are but we lived a shelf life which is we did our service and that was it how much do you try then to protect your kids when they start hitting their teens and going from 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 how paranoid do you become do you get to loosen the reins a little bit of freedom and just totally wrap them in cotton wheel well obviously my children now are like they're grown up and they're away but it does change you James you have to be lying to say that well it doesn't you have a different outlook you're more observant about if you go to a beach you might go to a beach and there might be a bit of a promenade and you'll see loads of people on the promenade and they've all got their cameras in their hand well why have they got their cameras in their hand are they a tourist or are they taking pictures of children on the beach so you do become more aware and again it's like your surroundings you know just going to retail parks going to like tourism places yeah you're just so far more aware of your surroundings of where your children might be there's a lot of kids you receive that doesn't know who you are no they wouldn't have known who I was they wouldn't have known who I was and some of them wouldn't have even known that potentially they were victims so sadly the 12 year old boy I don't know who he is I don't know where he is he might be a predator now do you know what I mean or he might be married, he might have children whatever there's a lot of these predators there's a lot of them abused as kids themselves or not necessarily because I know people say that yeah sometimes people will say they're abused and they think it's the norm and they think well this is what happens in life, this is what I should be doing they still have choices they have choices from the moment you're born upwards through life you have a choice to do what you do so you're not born with it I know people say that well you know you must be born a child sex offender but you're not predators basically have a liking for children and you'll find that they will be more comfortable talking to a child than what they would be potentially talking to an adult it will all be like a little bit mussy whereas when they were a child they can communicate well they feel comfortable and so that's where they that's where their niche is did anybody ever come forward to you and tell you that but they would like to get help or is it just nobody ever admitted to what they're doing is wrong no I mean no well first off they would never ever say they've done anything wrong because they not one no because they don't see it as wrong okay they like children because they are affectionate to children they educate children they spend more time with children they can communicate with children yes they have sex with children and that's their rationale alright so no one's going to turn around and say you know what I shouldn't be doing this how hard it is to see the broken kids to see the the nape males that are 11 I imagine that's the worst thing or being in that job to see yeah I mean sadly if you look at the CSE world the child sexual exploitation world you've got children out there because they get targeted at a young age say about 10 or 11 and as they get older they suddenly feel as though do you know what they see this like green light where they think do you know what I want to stop this and then but suddenly they don't want to lose what they have which is your gifts your presents your clothes cash iPhones iPads whatever it might be but they love the predator which means that if they walk away from it and they go back to family life they probably might not have anything they might have one present a year so you've got that problem which means that at the end of the day with predators what they'll do is and this has a flip side because you'll have a predator that likes boys 7 to 10 when that boy reaches 10 and they're development and they're moving on then predators will literally what they'll do is they'll hold on to that 10 year old because they've worked hard to break down the barriers of that child and then what they'll do is they'll use him to facilitate younger boys to come in so they keep it going so with CSE again what you'll do is you'll have girls 11, 12, whatever they'll suddenly get to about 16, 17 where they've had enough of all the complexities and all the problems that they've had that suddenly now they want to take a step back and be a facilitator to bring younger children in Did you ever feel as if your fate are lost cause because it's so rife out there, Ian? Well, I mean you can't stop it I think that the satisfaction I had was that and it became a bit of an obsession because you save one child then you want to save another one then you want to save another one, do you know what I mean and probably, dare I say it because of the legislation we're far more successful saving children than what we were getting convictions do you know what I mean so that's what kept you going is the fact that you you had an opportunity to save children How does your wife then when you were in that job for 20 years does that relationship break down or does it just total try to support each other the best that you could How does that work? My wife was strong she means a lot to me and I owe her a lot to her because at the end of the day I'm doing what I'm doing and Julie's keeping the family together and Julie's running the house and everything like that so yeah If she never supported you, do you think you'd have been in that job? I wouldn't have done that job because I made that decision from day one that if my wife wasn't comfortable with me doing it then I would walk away from it do you know what I mean because I genuinely felt that I needed the support of my wife and I desperately tried to make sure that I didn't bring things home do you know what I mean and there was the odd occasion when it did happen but generally speaking I wanted to like sever it and keep it split What about making friends and stuff when you're in that line of work did you have many friends or did you become so distanced towards people that they could be predators does he question everybody being a predator? Well I mean certainly in the undercover world we became a family within a family because we very much depended on each other we learnt from each other and they were good characters I mean the guy that really introduced me I mean he was a lovely fella but I knew him when I was in the Met Police and he was a really nice guy and he taught me a lot gave me a lot of advice and yeah you know so we very much depended on each other and we would there was times when we went to Romania and Holland and the Czech Republic and places like that but we went there for a reason we went there because predators were telling me this is where I go this is what I do etc etc so again it's building up that credibility did you ever break down any moment in? No I didn't break down because I had a good support mechanism around me I'd be telling the lie the flat job affected me because it was horrendous it wasn't nice but again because I had that support mechanism around with me I was able to talk it through and then I did various presentations in the future which again helped me as an individual because I was able to sort of like promote what we did to try and get other people to come in and do what we did but we could never get people to come in and do what we did because they just didn't want to do it You can understand why in fact why a lot of people would reject that I think you've got to respect their wishes you can you know people don't want to do it like being the company of them because they don't like speaking to them they've got children themselves they've got all these reasons why they don't want to do it and you have to respect them for it and I certainly wouldn't hold a grudge against anyone who doesn't want to do it I'd rather have someone who wants to do it because they feel as though they can do it rather than someone who's been forced to do it because again if you're forced to do something it's not really in you and you could be caught out and stuff like that and there are great reasons to try and make change do you think a lot of people could use that job though as predators themselves as a get out to see the things that you're seeing to cover up their own tracks Well I mean you know at the end of the day when I go back to what I think I said earlier about predators can come from all walks of life there are predators within the police service there has been it's been well documented so they are in that profession do you know what I mean you know God forbid there isn't anyone well certainly I don't know of anyone in the undercover world but I'm out of it now and I've gone there but certainly within the police service and certainly there's been officers that have investigated child abuse investigations and they've been predators so do you know what I mean it's it is what it is sadly It's played as an every field Do you know what I mean this year I've said that many times on the podcast before they get us to repeat the failed tendencies so that was one in every street where your kids are basically it's believable isn't it it is believable but sadly I think that's what it is what we've got to try and do now I think and there's loads of organisations out there certainly like Bernardo's and NSPCC they do a lot of sort of preventative work they do a lot of work sort of identifying children that may be at risk trying to get them off the streets because that's where potentially they can be at risk and there's loads of organisations out there who are prepared to listen to children speak to children educate children so yeah So your book Save a Child was it 2016-2017 when did that get released? 2018 got published in November 2018 and I got a lot of pleasure from it because there was a lot of education within it so there was a lot of advice about just being mindful and awareness for parents because I do think there are two victims in all this there's always a parents potentially and a child I made a big decision to sort of like come out into the open world so when I first when I retired from the place way back in seems ages now 2011 I would give talks to foster agencies and organisations about sort of like being mindful of sort of the grooming issues and predators themselves and then Tazine Ahmed who was a freelance journalist who did a lot of work with Channel 4 Dispatches did a lot of work within the CSE element to it very passionate about what she did so we spoke and she wanted me to sort of do a particular piece where we were doing some awareness for parents and it was a big thing and I thought well this is massive because no one knew what I did no one knew what I was and now suddenly I was going to you had a book for every mum and dad there's a book you don't want to read but a book that they should read to get a bit more knowledge and understanding of the red flags of how people can be manipulated that it's not a case of predators going for kids to go for the parents try and break them down to get them in with the kids it shows you the levels and extremes that people go to it's a snapshot of certain work I did which just highlights the potential of the potential of risk how do you feel now being at the forefront now with your face being out there the worry about any risk do you feel strong enough to just go with it I feel comfortable with it it's a massive decision James do you know what I mean no one knows who you are and then suddenly you're going to come out and I never really had any negative press about it really sort of at the end of the day I'm comfortable everything's been okay going forward to the future what's your plans well at the moment I teach detectives on training courses which I enjoy I really enjoy and if any opportunities come up in the future then yeah it would be great to sort of like do presentations and stuff like that I take my heart off to you for being so brave to do the job that you do I know these subjects people don't want to hear about that a lot of people don't want to talk about it but it's a subject that must be spoke about because at the end this could help potentially save kids that people could actually have a lamb bells now where they may recognise something that they wouldn't recognise before and have a better understanding of how dark these people kind of work for you to do that job this and man it's a brave job and you've helped save so many kids and helped put a lot of predators in prison but for people watching though what advice would you give for them maybe that's totally oblivious who's come into their life or where their surroundings are what's it like any concrete telltale sense I mean I would just because it's all on an individual basis but if you want to be generalised just be mindful where you're going to meet someone how you meet them if it's an internet if it's a site then just be mindful what you're actually saying and the trigger is if they start making an interest in wanting to know whether you've got any children then that's a flag that's a red flag because if you have no children then potentially they might not come back to you but because you've got a child then that's the hook that's what they want to go what I've done has gone I think it's important for people to understand that for me to have had to do this work I've had to work very hard to deal with all sorts of stuff and it's not easy because I'm ten in a lie like I'm not a predator and yet I'm portraying myself as a predator I've got all sorts of hobbies and interests and I've got my profiles for potential victims but it's all a lie and I've got to maintain that lie so it's not easy trying to get into that world and it's a secret world so yeah I enjoy what I did I saw them for what they really were I was pleased with the results that we got and it was good enough to get an award at the end of it which you don't plan for awards but at the end of the day I got an award so it was good and it was great for the family because it's recognition from the family really more than anything but I think you deserve more than an award for putting you through that misery but you'll probably hear and see things in your mind that you're probably trying to block out but through the day you're on this earth like the sad thing is over the forefront even though probably thousands have been asked to do it and they've all declined and you can understand why also I think it's important to respect their wishes as well because they will find their own niche what they feel as though they're good at and quite rightly so and as I said and they would have to work hard at whatever they were going to do do you know what I mean because that stuff there a six-part series or a documentary just highlighting what you've went through and highlighting the tell-tale signs that could potentially help other people like so for anybody watching I'll maybe leave a link where you can get in contact with I don't know if you want that but for people maybe even speaking around schools and educating parents stuff like that just to try that that information is valuable to them to help potentially save a fucking kid I think everyone should also you've got organisations out there and I know I keep saying about binados and the NSPCC but they've got loads of educational links out there and I think people have just got a do you know what I mean, just take the time to look at these links and yeah do you still do counselling just now? no are you feeling better? no as I said that world has gone that's finished now I enjoy what I do the book I think it was a hard decision to do the book because again it's the subject that perhaps people don't want to read and I didn't want to glorify what I did I wanted people to really understand just how difficult it is and how hard it is and I still think it's relevant now even though we've moved into this online world there are predators out there so you know it's not just about online you've got to be careful online and look about all the children now with technology and online there's more likelihood now of children being abused now than ever before because it's so easy it's on a global scale and all that kind of stuff where you've got islands and fucking doing all sorts of that stuff like it's no that world has gone do you know what I mean but yeah it's good just before we finish up brother would you like to finish up on anything yourself or maybe it's anybody that are watching? I mean obviously it goes without saying my wife Julie she's been phenomenal for me and my family as well my children never really knew what I did and they didn't know until even when I went to Buckingham Palace and got the award they couldn't understand why I was getting an award like you're a policeman why are you getting this award I really knew until much later when I wanted to come out and be a little bit more open and then I told them about it and yeah so they were proud of me so and again really he's not with us now but the person who put me into this world I owe a lot to him because he saw something that he thought I could do but I would like to also pay a particular thanks to perhaps people who were working with me from an operational point of view who had the patience and mindset and support and also the psychologists yeah that's important to get it all out there and talk to somebody about it last question so see when you during the year I pre-ed it you need to be a father how do you totally adapt does that become like a split personality like a job to then switch off what I used to do was I used to try and come back home at every opportunity because by the time I came home I was gradually coming down so when I walked through the door I was Ian do you know what I mean and I'd left everything else I was behind me and that's how I sort of dealt with it really because what you've got to do is you've got to say right I'm an actor and I've done this role and now what I'm going to do is I'm going to park that where it is and now I'm going home and home is reality home is real being a predator is just full it's just acting you have to have a rush home and just cuddle your kids and just tell them how much you love them because you are concerned that it could potentially happen to them and they must have been thinking why are you here without your family you've become protected of your family Ian for coming on the day and telling your story it's been a roller coaster my head is pounding if I'm honest but a story that needs to be told you're a true hero to many people and a lot of people might not understand the job that you took on but people with kids will understand that you were there to protect kids you were there to save kids you were there to put the evilness of this world in prison you got the award, you've got your book and hopefully many other doors open for you to try and educate the people of actually what's going on but fair play Ian and I wish you all the best for the future thank you James, thanks very much