 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I am your host Bart van der Zee and today I am joined by Colleen Clark She wrote a dissertation called the evolution of the ride symbol pattern from 1917 to 1941 Colleen, how are you? I'm good. How are you Bart? I'm great. This is really cool. This is uh, I don't think I've ever read a Dissertation in my life. I feel like I'm getting smarter just by talking to you Yeah, it's funny. I mean it's I've had a lot of people some of the first responses have been How did you write a dissertation on six notes? And I guess we'll we'll talk about that today. Yeah, that's really interesting The amount I mean it's almost like you're zoomed super far in on a very particular topic It just goes to show how the world of drumming can be you can just go as close in as you want Absolutely, and that was kind of what made me so curious was Trying to trace this pattern and and why and how it overtook our music and especially as As drummers, but also jazz music in general. So this hopefully can reach not only drummers, but jazz musicians across the instrumental and vocal Board yeah, absolutely, and I'll give a quick shout out to Ben O'Brien Smith from sounds like a drum Who connected us just literally via a Facebook post you did and he said you should be on drum history and Now you're on drum history. So that's pretty cool. Yes. Thanks, Ben Awesome everybody everybody should check out Ben. He's the bomb. Yep sounds like a drum. So cool Well, why don't we start? First off, tell us a little bit about you like you're obviously in school So and then we can hear a little bit about what got you to this point and then we'll jump right in with The evolution of the ride symbol pattern. Okay, cool. Yeah, so I just graduated from the University of North Texas in Denton, Texas with my doctorate in Performance with a specialty in jazz performance, which of course was on jazz drum set and I'm originally from Connecticut, but I've been living in New York for a long time and so What I mean how I've got to this dissertation point was of course from the influence of my many Mentors over the years which started with the great now passed away Al Lee pack who was the tympanist of the Hartford symphony for 50 years He also founded the percussion department at the Hart school in Hartford, Connecticut And so I started with him in a very young age and up until He passed away. So I started with an incredibly Brilliant mentor. Yeah, and my my past kind of continued in that Direction I ended up doing my undergraduate studies with the Incredible world-renowned famous marimba player Gordon stout at Iska College and then I did a percussion degree in music education degree there, which was Outstanding and has helped All of my music making and then I went to Sunni Purchase and studied with the great John Riley Of course the drum drum set player for the Village Vanguard Among many other recordings and projects that has continued to be my mentor to this very day He actually encouraged this research very much So and then I was I was just playing in in New York and doing the New York City thing being a band leader and I really wanted to take my playing and my research to the next level and so I applied for the doctorate at North Texas and Won a teaching fellowship there and was there for three years and now I'm back back in New York and really excited to be sharing my research and And playing and getting back into the scene again, which I have missed. Yeah, that's awesome So you're you're very well educated obviously and passionate about this Yeah, why don't you start out with just running us through everything you learned about the evolution of the ride symbol pattern? Okay, excellent so the What I was first curious about was Was Kenny Clark? So Kenny Clark is actually ends up at the end of my research because Kenny Clark was of course the Ride symbol pattern manipulator once we hit 1941 which I will talk about later Kenny Clark becomes, you know the the innovator of the pattern and then of course the Also the coordinator of the limbs that we all are always trying to Make more fluid as we practice every day but So my curiosity Started there honestly and so I was trying to find the very first recordings of Kenny Clark because I just wanted to know where he started and how he You know got to where he got and then I kept going backwards I really wanted to try to find this is impossible, but I wanted to try to find the first Recording of the pattern. Yeah and that you know Researchers always say you can't you can't say that because that's it's that's a really lofty and dangerous thing to say because of course there there's always someone who's going to come along and and This proves that but I didn't want to say, you know, I wanted to find the earliest Or an early representative recording of the pattern and of course that would begin with the original Dixieland jazz band because technically there They were the first recorded jazz band and So I have to start there and that was 1917 now what also, you know, as you do research You start with a goal and then you get To somewhere else that makes you curious about another thing which makes me curious it so it's always a journey So it's not always going to be a straight line and this definitely wasn't a straight line because I then had to to figure out How to show the evolution of the pattern not on the ride symbol because we didn't have you know arrived symbol until the mid 30s, you know into the early 40s, and I was so grateful to have Ed so who was one of my mentors in Texas very graciously gave me the go-ahead and the the hookup with CEO of zilgen cranky Yeah, yeah, and and I we were you know curious to see if there are records that showed When zilgen started making symbols that were bigger than 16 inches and so you know we Couldn't quite pin down when that when that production began Because zilgen had a big fire. I don't know it was in the early 30s So I think some of those records were destroyed, but she she helped She sent me some really really beautiful and interesting advertisements of 19 inch Symbols that were being made in Bucharest. So that's pretty interesting You could flip through it and see that advertisement as well in the dissertation. But anyway, so I had to figure out. Oh my gosh. Where did this pattern actually start on the drum set, you know where what were what surface were drummers using and What were they playing it on and You know so anyway, so of course I had to go to the first technically recorded jazz recording and So that brings us to Tony the Barbro who was the drummer in the original Dixieland jazz band and There's a track that they made in November of 1917 Called Oriental Jazz and in parentheses. It's called Sudan and so Tony the Barbro can be heard playing pattern on the wood blocks for little tiny sections so Like from minute one ten to one fifteen one twenty one to one twenty four So it's just like five second increments. So not throughout the whole track But in these tiny little increments where the the band goes to this kind of minor little shouty thing and That's what he does every time. It's pretty pretty interesting how he orchestrated That so then I'm on that path of okay. Where did they put the pattern? But then there's also the path of How they orchestrated it where in the tune they orchestrated it and then eventually when we get Later on we come to the To the What we call the riding out, you know The last shout course or whatever of a big band tune where we ride the cymbal and we play backbeat on two and four that kind Of a thing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah That you know that becomes the go-to standard In the thirties and into the forties So it's really neat to trace how we started from these tiny little increments of a few seconds at a time of pattern to Oh my gosh, we're playing the pattern through the basically the whole tune It's it was really curious to me how that evolved and Also, who was doing it? I am really, you know, I'm a champion I try to be a champion of getting to the root of where things begin and so You know and and how Who who was doing it first and how it was getting out there? And I think that also I know that I'm fortunate in that I have had great mentors And I you know like all great Musicians athletes whatever We are influenced and should be influenced by the history of what we are so passionate about so I think it's it's our job as Musicians and especially musicians of jazz music, which is so deeply rooted in American culture Highly influenced obviously by other world music, but deeply rooted in American culture that it's it's it's up to us to be informed trace back to the roots and Start knowing the names of the folks that were playing The music from the beginning and so that was another big and important thing for me to do a lot of guys I didn't know Papa Jack Lane Norland's drummer a lot of band leaders that I was not familiar with as well so this is kind of my curiosity with The migration and the geographic influence that drummers and band leaders had on the pattern as well So that was something that was really interesting to me As well, so I I try to show that it wasn't it wasn't only drummers themselves that were playing Patterning and realizing. Oh, this is really helpful to the music, but it was also band leader saying Yes, you need to play that at that moment, you know, yeah, I'm done with this chorus there's a great example of Harry dial had had the gig with Louis Armstrong for a short stint, but there's a neat account of Harry dial explaining Al Lewis Armstrong Would specifically say you need to play the pattern play the ride cymbal until I'm done, you know Yeah, and that that kind of thing is really neat to me and and that example in particular was really It was really neat when that was brought to my attention by of course the Lewis Armstrong researcher And archivist Ricky Riccardi at the Lewis Armstrong archive out and at in Queens at Queens College. So That kind of stuff. That's what really really interests me. So that's what the dissertation Kind of lays out. It's just saying this is this came from Little a little seed and then I grew into this massive massive tree that we now as drummers We every day we when we sit down and practice what do we do? We play the ride cymbal pattern Exactly and the thing I keep thinking about is as I've learned from doing this show is just the the The timekeeping pattern Using your right hand to play on the ride or on the hi-hat is something that we all take for granted now, but That's not the case. That wasn't always there Like you said the original remind me of the name of the very first guy who did it on the wood block Oh, Tony subarborough sometimes could go by Tony Spargo But I went with subarborough in the throughout the dissertation. Cool So with Tony doing it in just having it be in those tiny little sections there They would do the timekeeping With a brush on the snare obviously kind of like you think of with a normal brush pattern And then it would expand from there So I think that plays just exactly into what you're talking about here And just seeing where it started where it went from and then it does help Every bit of the music to have an eighth note or a jazz pattern or sixteenth notes Going along and chugging along with the whole song. So that's that's really cool. Yeah, absolutely and it was you know Subarborough in the original Dixieland jazz band, of course, they were from New Orleans I was an all-white band that migrated up to Chicago But of course there were there were other bands black bands black drummers that were playing the pattern as well It's just like I said just so happens that The original a Dixieland jazz band was an all-white band and unfortunately they were given more resources Because they were an all-white band and that that was uh, that was the unfortunate truce But that brings me to kind of my my unsung hero, which of course is Kaiser Marshall. I was in I was doing a lot of this research at the Institute of Jazz Studies over at Rutgers in Newark and And I came across this I I wanted to find again. I was trying to search for earliest representations that were audible Of pattern playing and I I got really obsessed with Kaiser Marshall and I stumbled upon this recording of Lucille Hageman who was a New York She was a New York singer and entertainer and Kaiser Marshall played with her in the early 20s And there was so what I would do is I sit in the Institute of Jazz Studies and I would just listen to recordings just all day and I would write down any time I heard The pattern and there were two really neat examples of Kaiser Marshall playing with her and this is there's not an exact date, but it was in November of 1920 and There's a tune called everybody's blues and you can hear Kaiser Marshall playing pattern for two Three seconds at a time. It's pretty interesting behind her and Just a side note one one method that I used in the dissertation was I would I would mark down the amount of seconds that the pattern was being played Where where obviously where was being played? And then for the total amount of time that the pattern was being played in seconds Throughout the track and then divide it by the total number of seconds in the track so I could show numerically How the pattern was growing over time. Wow And so, um, for example, everybody's blues this track from November 1920 Kaiser Marshall placed the pattern on the wood blocks for a duration of seven seconds, which is only 4.17 percent of the track But then when we're listening to shoe shine boy, which is the famous Joe Jones When he's playing with the jonesmith incorporate, which is is bassy from November 1936, you know 16 years later He's playing pattern on the hi-hat for 71 almost 72 of the track. So Now that was a big part of how I wanted to Show that the pattern was overtaking the music. Um, and if I could do that numerically, I know that I could get more Um, more folks interested in how you know how it grew Throughout the music, how you know how it was being used throughout the music and I could very Fundamentally say listen the percentage of pattern playing in from 1930 to 1934 is you know This much higher than from, you know 1920 to 1924. So that's um, That was a big part of of the research and how I structured This whole Journey of the pattern, but anyway, so back to my unsung hero Kaiser Marshall So he could be heard playing with lucille hegman in 1921 and then he just comes up throughout So many of the examples Throughout the entire Well, all of my all of my work, but because he he pretty much played with with everybody and so But that was definitely the the one of the earlier um, that's the second earliest representation of pattern playing that I Found and it could easily be heard. Um, uh audibly was with Kaiser Marshall with lucille hegman, which is pretty neat That is neat two questions here. So we should probably define exactly what The ride symbol pattern actually is because in my mind I have is that that classic kind of That's kind of jazz exactly, right? Okay. So that's the pattern that we're talking about now My second thought is is obviously this is still relatively or early in like the invention of recording Obviously, I think that was in like the 1800s with like wax cylinders and all that but um It had to be kind of difficult to hear exactly what's happening because this is usually like One microphone in the room picking up everything. So I'm sure you can tell a ride, you know when it sticks out Or a symbol but that's got to be a factor not being able to fully crisp Hear every single element of it. So did you ever have any like Um, kind of confusion thanks to the actual technology of the recording? Sure. I mean, we're definitely, you know The acoustical recording versus the electrical recording that you know, it happens the switch over Roughly 1925 um is to to electrical recording Yeah, it makes a big difference. And so I was really careful with um, how I chose the representative tracks That I was talking about um within the dissertation because of course there are things that you wish you were hearing Versus things that you're actually hearing, you know, I mean, um, and so a lot of the um, That's what was a little bit difficult. Um, It it becomes apparent that I have a gap Um, it's really from I had a hard time from 1921 Um, 23 Uh, 24 and then I have a gap between 24 and 27 of like really strong Uh, representations of the pattern Um And it's really interesting because of course, we've got those famous king Oliver recording Um, and and I I know Kaiser Marshall I would assume he's playing pattern on a lot of those, but it's really hard to hear So I made sure that when I was choosing representative recordings that they were clear to um The quote unquote untrained just meaning you hadn't been listening to hundreds of recordings like I had been for a year a year or so So that you could hear it as well. So a lot of the um The earlier recordings especially I had to make sure that it was either on wood blocks Or something really exposed like the Oriental Tom that Kaiser Marshall plays Again behind Lucille Hagemann on the tune Stratmus Lizzie. That's from May of 1921. You can hear Uh, it's very clearly because he's playing it on an Oriental Tom and it's very loud um, so Yeah, it's it's definitely you bring up a very valid point that You know the acoustical versus the electrical recording Is is difficult uh to hear and even uh what I was at ijs At rectors, um I had help from Vinnie Palote who who is a I mean he is the expert in uh I mean in all these early recordings in general And he he was bringing up the same the same point of you know, some other stuff is is difficult to hear what Kaiser is playing um, so I had to be really careful with which Tracks, uh, I was going to point out for sure. Yeah, you don't want to leave any any room for error of saying well No, that's just uh this or that or the the the recording is too inaudible now So you're including which is good to know the ride pattern can be like on a wood block or like the Oriental or chinese tom tom So that's good to know it's just that pattern. Um now Backing up. Can I just ask you a very simplified question that you probably already answered? But so it's it's almost just like a coincidence or like happenstance that this particular pattern that basically changed the world of jazz Forever and is now a staple of all jazz music It just naturally evolved into that right and that then it sort of just Worked its way into the the the history and culture of jazz Yeah, I mean there are definitely, um Other considerations, um including the connection to african drumming The real roots of the pattern for me and I touch upon this briefly. Um in the dissertation, uh, but it's definitely We can find um a connection between the west african Musical traditions in the west african bell patterns In that those bell patterns are played on a high pitched Instrument and again, we can see a relationship to the higher pitched cymbal sound Where it could be heard audibly over let's say a big band, right? Um, and similarly It's a repetitive pattern That has you know, doesn't have alteration of course until we hit the bebop era But what happens in the bebop era that makes it different from what we're doing prior to the bebop era is that we are dealing with dancers So um and again the relationship to um like for example the ewe people of gana For talking about african traditions, we're always going to have dancing and drumming together. And so, um There's a famous ethnic musicologist david lock Really researched the importance of the bell pattern and the ewe people of gana and he always in many of his writings You know, he's reiterating that the bell is dictating Um everything that's happening not not only, you know the drumming and dancing but also the the singing So we have to remember that jazz like I said before. Yes, it's it's definitely Rich and deeply steeped in our american culture, but it's highly influenced by world music meaning other other musics other cultures because we have to remember that the Uh burst place of jazz is in a port, you know in a port area That was at the epicenter of the slave trade So we had so many different cultures and musics and people Coming through and influencing jazz. So, you know, this um Pattern are are what we're calling what i'm calling, you know, the pattern of the earth the jazz ride symbol pattern It's really it makes sense that um that I mean if we're talking historically and culturally It makes sense that we'd have something like this dictating what the drummer is doing, you know If we look back to the history of african drumming for sure. Yeah, so it um I was talking to jazz soyer about the history of the drum set on a previous episode and it's he discussed about how it's Like the brass bands and the janissary bands and they would all kind of it was just a big melting pot. Um, which Exactly. Yeah, I listened to that episode. That was great. Cool. Yeah, and it's it's extremely true Even today of different cultures blending together and all that good stuff. Um, so so then moving forward here When did it kind of become more like standardized? We've got our really early examples of it Then there's still you're getting up to 70 percent. Take us further there When did it kind of become more of a an everyday? This is jazz kind of thing. Sure. Um, I will come out and say that I am a lewis armstrong fan myself So I have an entire chapter dedicated to how influential he was and and how influential his drummers were and I would I you know I will say that um, my other unsung hero uh true hero, uh throughout this whole research, uh project is uh, zudi singleton and um zudi and his influence with lewis armstrong was really important because he was not only orchestrating but he was also using brushes right when they were becoming popular and a commonplace tool that um that drummers were using so um once we hit, you know, even 1929 kind of lewis armstrong with victoria spivey And this kind of 29 through 34 arena it gets really interesting for a couple of reasons One now that the brushes were becoming normal We can hear brushes being used by not only zudi with um with lewis armstrong But also of course bandleader and pianist jelly roll morton We can hear zudi with with him Along with jelly roll making baby dots use brushes, which he did not really particularly enjoy So we've got that this is becoming more of a normal thing Also, my other sidetracked journey that I got really excited about was um, if if you've checked out the ken burns jazz documentary, I think it's chapter two There's a video black and white video That starts or film. Excuse me film of lewis armstrong and he is live. It's really interesting and he is playing I could see the drummer behind him playing with brushes And also through the tune and uh, eventually ends up playing The ride civil pattern with sticks on a tiny little splash cymbal on top so you can visually see everything Yeah, which is really neat and then I tried out once I tried to figure out who it was It was a drummer that I had never Heard of which didn't mean anything of course because I don't know everything nobody does But it was it was it was someone named um, oliver time And this is in 1934 in copenhagen and I thought to myself. Wow either I mean first of all, where did this guy come from and he's over in europe Orchestrating pattering throughout an entire tune did lewis tell him to do that? Yeah, or what's going on here? So um, I I get into a little bit about Oliver times and again, it brings me back to that. Um I think it was not just drummers themselves, but I think band leaders were Saying listen, I I liked how duty did this there. Could you please do that there that kind of a thing? So I definitely think again, this is happening and then once we once we hit, uh, which is really important as well The the hi-hat and how that impacted the pattern were kind of full steam ahead So the the hi-hat folks that we really need to talk about of course are Kaiser marshal walter johnson willy vick washington who was lesser known Um, but uh with playing with benny moton before his tragic, uh, taunt electomy uh death and then of course joe jones And of course, joe jones ends up being the hi-hat master. Um, I think we can all agree on that pause there for a second What is your take on the invention of the hi-hat? I think it was jazz Someone said that um, it was he had a plumber friend who invented a kind of a piping to make to bring up the low boy What's your research? What have you found out about that? Um, I mean, I didn't get too crazy on the hi-hat What was curious for me was the precursor of the hi-hat Which of course were I mean they went by a couple different names depending on which patent you're going with But if we go by the the gladstone patent Um, you know, you can call it the the hand sock or the uh bedock Symbols and they're most clearly audible for me on um a monday date Which was a lukewarm storm recording where he instructs zudy to say whip them cymbal pops and he goes You get it. You get it. You do the pop pop pop pop and then they start the they start the track Um, but that you know that I mean, it's neat because it was an open and closed device Which was patented by gladstone. Let's see september 27th 1927 That was a precursor for me. Um, and then there's a great photo of chick webs where he's holding the the gladstone contraption as well so I I mean and I also found the What is it? Uh, thanks the big thanks to jim pettit at the mentis drum shop For for letting me go through his archives as well. He's got a lot of incredible Um, incredible old magazines and in one of them I found in a 1929 in wallberg and oak, uh, which was a company I think out of wooster. Yeah, they're still around. Yeah They have a great, um, there was a great advertisement. They call it the perfection high hat sock symbol Which was ran for eight dollars and fifty cents, which is pretty neat And then the perfection sock symbol pedal, which was just a low boy, you know Um, so I don't know really How flash when the switchover happened. Um, definitely not an expert in that No, and as I said, I was like, well, we're here to talk about ride symbols. That's not what we're here to talk about But no, no, but I actually I have a whole chapter dedicated to to you know, this whole hand sock You know transition precursor to the hi hat and then the hi hat itself, obviously That pattern that pattern is very heavily used on the hi hat just as much as the is the ride typically Exactly exactly and and it's and it's really interesting. Um, because the let's see Like for example, uh, walter johnson when he plays with flutter henderson, it's, uh, 1930 october 3rd 1930 Um, he's playing the the hi hat for most of that track china town my china town Um, and he's playing the hi hat for almost 61 of the track and then of course as we go on further and further through the Going to put swing era Most of the stuff is most of the pattern is played on the hi hat until of course the the you know, the shout Courses or whatnot, you know, yeah where um where it gets really loud, obviously I like how you can say uh 61 of the song, you know, you actually have the number and the uh, It's helpful for for those that are more more centered in the math and science And I wish I was one of those but I'm pretending to be Yeah, no, no, no. This is this is great So when we're talking about joe jones and his work with basie, um, the iconic or what I think is the iconic, uh track that One could reference if we were to pick kind of one hi hat track Is definitely shoe shine boy, uh, which was recorded on november 9th in 1936 and he played the pattern on the hi hat for um, essentially 72 of the track And the other 30 percent of the track or what or whatnot is like little he would do They traded a few times and then he he laid out for the first. I think it's the first chorus Um, but yeah, he plays the hi hat on The entire tune unless he was trading or not playing um, and so that is a really Solid indicator as to what was going on, um in the in the 30s. This is you know in the middle of the swing era Not necessarily on a track that I mean, this is a you know, a record date track, but um, that's definitely something that joe jones was doing And um continue to do it and was was known You know, he was known as the master of the hi-hat. Um, obviously, um And so that and then once we we moved, um What how I organized it was the hi hat and then I Focused on kind of the flash symbol and then which uh grew into the ride symbol. Um, and there are some neat and and informative examples of Not only the stick being played On the symbol but the brush being played on the symbol with you know playing the pattern on the symbol with the brush and a good example of this is, um, a jelly roll morton track entitled tree court this is from um june 11th 1928 and Uh, it's tommy benford playing um, and again I like to try to bring in more as many names as we can Of of folks that we should know Um, and you can hear him playing pattern with the brush On quite a few sections of the track. Um, it's about 38 percent of the track But that's a really neat recording because not only is he orchestrating but he's also playing pattern with the brush on a different surface Um, and of course the other uh example that that I really love Is with my old friend oliver tines, um with louis armstrong, uh in copenhagen in 1933 and he plays um Pattern with the brush on a small symbol and then he plays pattern with a mallet on a small symbol And what's really super neat about this is that we have video Evidence of this and if anyone types in to youtube, I cover the waterfront louis armstrong 1933 or something like that you'll be able to see him do it and you can see him switch to mallet You know, it's really really super awesome. Yeah, that is Um Yeah, so, um, you know the the whole small symbol thing When I started the project, I again Wasn't like I said before it wasn't necessarily thinking about all the different types of surfaces So then I had to wrap my head around. Oh my gosh. So they're playing pattern on small symbol Choking it with left hand. There were a lot of different technical aspects of pattern playing um that I I had to honestly learn about um, and then Educate myself and realize what I was hearing on on the recordings that I was listening to so um, the small symbol um the duration of the pattern on the small symbol it wasn't as high um as What you would think because even in I have examples from 1927 through 33 Um, it's not what you would think it would be during this time because by this time I was I was thinking oh my gosh, we're going to have ride symbol, you know all the way like no No, we weren't quite there yet. Which is pretty pretty interesting. So um, which brings us up to the ride symbol itself um and um You know this the earliest Dare I say that I have found in my own research. I'm not saying this is the earliest example Just putting that out there. Nice and safe. But for me Um, for me a very clear and early Representative example of uh, a drummer playing the ride symbol pattern on a larger symbol larger than a splash symbol Comes from drummer Ben Pollack with Benny Goodman on the track room 1411 Um, and the pattern uh, it's definitely played on a ride symbol and and you can hear it very easily You can hear that he's not choking it with the left hand Um, and it's done one two three times throughout the track. So he's he's doing it for about 23 of the track Um, and again, this is brought to my attention actually by um by ricky rickardy again when we're at the Louis Armstrong archive, which is pretty neat. He hits me to this track in this record Um, and then what's neat about when we're getting into the quote-unquote ride symbol section, um I had to of course add in um China symbol Because the china was also used to ride on. Yeah, exactly a relatively popular thing chick web loved using the china symbol and the um the recording that I really love to use um For this example is back by shuffle by arty shaw and the drummer is cliff lemond And it's really kind of an interesting track because the track just starts out with cliff lemond playing four on the floor And the pattern for four bars straight. No alteration By himself on the china symbol kind of bizarre. Yeah, very. Yeah, so so then I'm like, why is this? So I'm reading more about it. I'm trying to find why why it just Musically doesn't really make sense. You know like what's happening. So then I was um I was finally hit to the story that um arty shaw really loved um chick web and his band and chick webs would do this often I guess he would start off a tune just by playing four bars the time out front You know, probably while the band was getting their stuff together and get turning to the right tune And he loved it so much that he made cliff lemond do it, you know on this recording of back by shuffle Yeah, and so this is a really neat example because you can hear him out front by himself And then throughout the tune he either pattern was either played on china or the ride symbol And it's about 64 of the entire tune and that's 1938, which is a pretty neat point where Because of course then I you know in this brief overview that gets us up to Kenny Clark with billy holiday and um It's it's neat because and I like to You know kind of end the conversation with this because when we're talking about back by shuffle Yeah, what if they were about 64 of the time was pattern when we're talking about I hear music This recording from september 12 1940 with billy holiday Kenny Clark playing drums It's a drop in in amount of pattern played because when I was going through It was hard for me to find um uh Just pure pattern, so no manipulation so ding ding ding ding ding Pure not ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding or whatever you know altered Going through this track. Um and it's um It was really really interesting because there is a a drop in pure pattern played because kenny was experimenting With um altering the pattern he was sick of um, he said, what did he say he was sick of digging digging for coal on the floor, you know, that kind of a thing. And he really, he was really searching. He was trying to find ways that he could add to the music, but push it forward. And of course that came from his buddies too. I mean, he was hanging with Dizzy and Bud Powell and Monk at all those cats that were inventing bebops and he was obviously a big part of that. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty wild to think that even at that point, they were already kind of, I don't want to say getting sick of the pattern, but they were thinking, how can we then take this to the next level, which is what drummers do constantly. All the time. Now, let me ask you, where does the swish symbol or the swish knocker kind of fall into this? Because I know it's, to me, I look at those and I think of Jean Krupa playing them and it's kind of like a mix between a China and a ride a little bit. So, and I don't know the full history of those, but that's got to be a part of that a little bit, you know? I don't know the exact date of the swish knocker because someone else has asked me this. With a quick Google, it says 1930s, you know, but that's Wikipedia, so. Yeah, and I think, I mean, I definitely know that Jean was a very big influence and help with Zildjian because I know that Aveda Zildjian had a lifelong relationship with Krupa and I know that he was integral in, you know, making thinner symbols and that comes from, that's from their Zildjian historical background info on their website. So, I know that that relationship was important. I don't know the history of that, but that well, of course, Paul Francis or Steve Maxwell or any of those guys are gonna know the answer to that or John Riley or, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's just curious of, it's an interesting, because it's that evolution of this, you know, like you said, a splash symbol literally growing into a ride is just a really cool way to put it to go from the tiniest symbol to what is usually, minus a gong, the biggest symbol. So, I just think it's interesting to think of what they would use to play the pattern on. Yeah, and I know that, of course, there were, like I was talking about before, with the cultural and global influences that jazz continues to, you know, grow, honestly, grow with. And we see this at, with so many jazz programs like the Berkeley Global Jazz Program, you know, jazz is always going to be influenced by global music and cultures and whatnot. But definitely in the beginning, when we're talking about the first example that it gave you of Oriental Jazz, there was definitely some Asian influences that were coming over as well. Because if you listen to this track, it's this one, and then Strut, Miss Lizzie, I think. But definitely, the tracks that have, it's really interesting, and this is probably another dissertation, but the tracks that have Oriental in the name or suggest that have some sort of Oriental tom, so we're talking about those tacked tom that were typically painted, exactly, so there's that. And there's also some sort of, like you said, gong-ish, china-ish sound from a cymbal. So definitely early influences coming from the Eastern part of the world would even bring us through to Chick Webb and then, of course, to Zildren and their swish-knocker, and then, of course, to how it's used even today in the big band situation as well, you know, still to this day. What I've always seen is the chinas and the swish-knockers and everything, and originally, like you said, starting out would be, chinas would be just to be super loud, and you'd be in a military band, and you'd be in a parade in, you know, early, let's say, very early history, and it would just be used for that. So that is quite the history of the ride pattern there. So now you stop at 1941, because after that, it becomes, my guess is it's more standardized and it's kind of more of the norm. So it's not being, the evolution isn't quite as drastic year to year, right? Or why do you stop at 1941? I stop at 1941 because of Kenny Clark, because of the bebop revolution that was happening, because what really happens then is Kenny Clark, Bud Powell, Dizzy, all these cats are so interested in the creation of bebop. And the listeners are changing as well. So lesser popular, you know, bebop was less popular to dance to, because it was not necessarily a dance music. So, and quite frankly, what happens is once the pattern begins to be manipulated, it's less danceable. So more and more drummers are trying to play like Kenny and play bebop and the use of the pattern, unless of course they stuck with a swing era band leader, the use of the pattern declines. Got it. So the use of the pure pattern, meaning the non-manipulated pattern is in decline because, you know, cats are trying to coordinate themselves. They're trying to sound like Kenny and Max Roach, and you know, they're trying to do that, that kind of a thing, which is not necessarily as easy to dance to. So the crowd, the listeners changed. Yeah, no, that makes sense. It's, you get into that more like, not showing off, but you get into that more let's go as fast and be as technical and be as interesting as possible. Kind of like, obviously bebop kind of transitions into what's that more modern jazz kind of sound. So it is less, let's make people dance. It's more let's make people think in a way and improvise and all that. Let's make art, let's make art. Let's make art. Absolutely. Wow, well this is awesome. I wanna tell people too that they can find your dissertation. They can actually read the evolution of the ride symbol pattern from 1917 to 1941, which is the name of it. If you visit Colleen Clark Music, that's C-O-L-L-E-E-N-C-L-A-R-K music.com. And from there you can find it and all kinds of cool stuff that Colleen's working on and doing. So yeah, Colleen, I think we did it. I think we've covered the whole thing. I think so, that was awesome, it was a team effort. Yes, excellent. And for you to explain it in a way for us to all kind of understand is really cool. Now on the way out here, what was it like to present this? I mean, were you, I've never given a dissertation or seen one. I mean, that had to be kind of a nerve-wracking situation. Well, I mean, like most things, if you've been working on it for a long time, you're just really excited to present it. And for me, I did it in two different ways. So I had a lot of amazing students at North Texas because I was a teaching fellow as well. So I was not only conducting a big band of my own, but also I was really lucky to teach the introduction to jazz recordings, so class as well. So it was really neat to have so many of my students become curious about jazz that was earlier than 1960 or so. So that was a big deal for me. So I was in kind of their interest, I thought to myself, what is the best way to really present this in a way that is going to make them more curious about it and excited about it. And I said to myself, that would be to play it. So what I did is I did a sonic presentation of essentially the representative recordings that I talked about, talked through today. And so what I did is I did exact transcriptions of, I think it was 12 tunes or something like that. Yeah, it was 12 tunes. And so what I did is I had extensive program notes, so I didn't have to talk too much and we could focus on the music. But I had extensive program notes and brought musically, I guided the audience on this journey from past to present. So I did exactly 1917 to, I stopped at 1938. So that they could see visually how the band changed as well, starting from a smaller group situation and then growing into a big band and hear it as well. So that was the first portion of it. I did that in November and then in March, I defended it in more of a academic setting where I stood in front of a room and presented a PowerPoint and walked the listeners through and I would play them little clips and show them what I was talking about with the percentages of duration of pattern plays throughout a tune, which was pretty neat for the, a lot of the non-drummers appreciated that. And so we walked through that together and then I was asked many questions. It was about a two hour situation and then that was it. They're like, okay, you passed. Wow, that's cool. I was gonna say, I'm sure you did great. I mean, if it's anything like today, I'm sure it was a great explanation. And for now, I think we're good. Again, everyone can check out ColleenClarkMusic.com to read the full dissertation and just there's cool stuff all over her website. So Colleen, I really appreciate you being here and good luck in the future. Now that you're out of school and you're in the real world. Yes, yes, it's pretty neat, great. I'm enjoying, I'm enjoying summer honestly. Oh, that's good, I'm sure. So thank you so much Bart. I really appreciate it. And thanks to all you listeners. I hope you, I hope I've, you know, encouraged curiosity. And if you have any questions, please check out the website. Absolutely. All right, thanks Colleen. We'll talk to you later. Cool, thanks Bart. All right, bye-bye. Bye. If you like this podcast, find me on social media at Drum History and please share, rate and leave a review. And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future. Until next time, keep on learning. This is a Gwynn Sound podcast.