 You know, thanks for joining us in the car. This is kind of crazy, isn't it? Yeah, it's perfect. And then, yeah, thanks for having me at Langdon. Yeah. Yeah, so it's really great back to the CubeCon. Yeah. You know what? And then, actually, we returned to CubeCon in person last year, like in Los Angeles. But this is pretty much bigger than last year. It seems like it. Yeah, I really, it's like so unpredictable how many people are going to be here. You know, who are actually going to come. Yeah, I was told that more than $7,000 is in person. Really, $7,000? Yeah, and $14,000 in the virtual audience that we expected, but just along with the registration. Yeah, but you never know how many people actually show up. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, typically, maybe 50% or 60%. But you know what? So yesterday, we co-located an event, a bunch of a lot of stuff. And then we saw a lot of people actually showed up. Oh, really? Yeah, according to the registration. Because I think people pretty much feel comfortable. Yeah, finally, yeah. Well, the protocols they're doing for CubeCon, I think, are pretty good, like they're doing the kind of the health and wellness check every day. Yeah, that's super helpful. You know, also, I've been doing business for a lot of time, for the past months. And the most confidence that they don't require the audience to wear a face mask. If you want to go for it, but not mandatory thing. However, the CNCF or Linux Foundation, like a CubeCon, stay asked all attendees to wear a face mask. It's a really cool thing. And then in the end, not so much like a COVID positive with the app, the conference. Right, right. Because the last thing you want to do as a conference is be a super spreader event, right? Exactly. After the conference, everybody enjoyed the conference. But after the conference, everybody started to post on Twitter, hashtag COVID positive, sorry for that. You should be taking care of yourself. Right, yeah. Yeah, I did the little conference I do at DevConf US. We were really on the fence, but we decided to make them optional because it was, like target audience was local and Boston had pretty good numbers. So we were kind of comfortable doing that and we got away with it. I'm not sure it was, I still feel like I'm not sure it was the right choice, but it ended up working out OK. Yeah, that's right. So by the way, this is really cool. I mean, I never ever had some chance to have an interview in a car. In a car, yeah. Yeah, it's really awesome. Just like some kind of TV show or some kind of Netflix documentary. Right. Yeah, I guess it is. It's been kind of entertaining. Of course, I just took an incorrect turn, which I'm unsurprised by, because we are not doing the correct route yet. So we're still trying to get back to knowing where we are. It should be OK. As long as we're still in Detroit, they're not going to cross the border. No, we've got to be careful not to accidentally end up in Canada. Yeah, exactly. Because apparently, we were talking to some of the locals and they were telling us that, yeah, apparently it happens a lot that people get on ramp to Canada. All of a sudden, they're stuck to customs. Yeah, exactly. I was like, well, that's great. Let's avoid that. Exactly. I don't even know that, because this isn't my first time being here in Detroit. And some local folks told me yesterday, Dan. You know also, over the river, this is actually Canada. So be careful. You're not going to go today, and you cannot maybe come back. Right, right. Yeah, I don't know how I'm in the stupid. I actually came and forgot I didn't bring my passport. I totally should have. Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah, but I don't have it. So yeah, let's not go to Canada. Yeah, and then you know what? So I just wanted to shout out to a new CNCIP project. When it was Sandbox, we just became like a conveyor. Yeah, I was going to talk about conveyor a little bit. One of the things I appreciate when they went the Sandbox route, too, they've decided to collapse some of the projects together, so now it's just kind of one big project instead of the individual pieces. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so conveyor is just help people to go on their application modernization journey. So that's why the conveyor project combines the multiple projects, for example, how to assess your application for your architecture, not even the application itself, but also infrastructure layer, and also analyze application code itself, and then give some tips and then guide how to modernize and modify your application and configuration itself. And it's not only refactoring, but also it showcases how to transform your whole portfolio architecture from platform and then hosting virtual machine and bare metal into the cloud. Right, I mean, one of the things I really appreciate about tools like conveyor or whatever is it's significantly simpler to kind of have a starting point. So even if it's not perfect, giving me something that's not just a blank wall is a great way to start. So yeah, I think it's funny. I've interviewed various people about conveyor like a whole bunch of times over the past few years. So yeah, I think it's been pretty cool. Yeah, exactly. And I want to be interesting. You know what, so the platform engineer is just some kind of bird world. So everybody's saying a couple of years ago as a responsibility, and what are you doing for your company? And most people say it specifically like you call, yeah, you know, I'm SRE or OPS engineer or DevOps engineer. And recently a lot of people call themselves like a platform engineer. So platform engineer most likely try to provide IDP like an internal developer platform and also manage their production environment. And one of the big challenge for them how to optimize their resources to run the business application. So that's why the end modernization journey is not only a developer issue, but also the platform engineer's interest. So I actually managed a wonderful pre-event K-Navicon for several years stuff yesterday. And I got a lot of chance to have some conversation with the SREs and their platform engineers. And they're really interested in the application because they have something different approach to add management, not focus on application of course, but they really focus on how to make optimization my internal developer platform as well as a production environment to run the developer's application. Right, right, right. So, you know, however, like if you're going from like a traditional application and you want to go towards like a serverless application, that's still going to require a fair amount of re-architecture for the app, right? I mean, like, I think Conveyor is really kind of trying to bring the same application kind of to the cloud rather than, you know, considering a re-architecture as much, right? Yeah, exactly. And then you know also it depends on what you are looking for. So yeah, that is true. So Conveyor inspired any people and ops people and developer, even any enterprise companies how to get restart. And then it's not just a big bang stuff. So they're showcasing a multiple step, like a long-term plan. And then first thing, you're going to start with this one. And then also you can have some plan for the next six months for the application, not only re-architecture, but also maybe small change application like a strangler pattern. You can keep making your app production environment stable. However, you can keep evolving your, the architecture or platform, that's like that. Right, right, right, yeah. I mean, I think that's, you know, the both kind of the problem, right? With serverless, right? It's like, it really does mean you've got to design your application around kind of an event-driven architecture, which is really nice once you have it, right? But the, you know, kind of getting from, you know, a traditional application to that level is, you know, sometimes challenging. But I like the, I mean, one of the nice things about using something like Conveyor or whatever and kind of getting it into the cloud or whatever is then you can do that re-architecture potentially in pieces. So you can kind of say, okay, let's just pull this one feature out, move it to more of a serverless architecture, you know, and then, but you still have all the rest of it kind of already running in the same, like Kubernetes cluster or whatever, so they can, you know, communicate and all that jazz. So I think it really does bring a lot to the table to be able to run it as, you know, in a containerized way, even if it isn't kind of architected correctly for a true containerized platform. Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of cloud and containerized platform, so you have multiple choices to what kind of container platform you're going to use, like the Amazon Kubernetes service, like AKS or EKS or the Google cloud platform, and that things, you know, I think it's a lot of a challenge for them because a lot of companies actually move forward to multi-cloud or hybrid cloud strategies, and that which means that we're not going to go to only Amazon. So, but they, but still, you're going to still use the Kubernetes as a container platform. Right, right. So how to like migrate from here and there and then we do some minimum effort and maximum outcome. So convey your project actually showcased the way, just like that, for the multiple Kubernetes migration stuff as well. Yeah, I'm surprised nobody's come up with like a buzzword yet of like cloud locked or something, you know, like, but because, you know, it really is like the feature set often, right, when you kind of go to a, you know, a particular one of these platforms, they're not bad. Like, I mean, they're definitely adding good features, but it really does lock you in if you're not really careful. And if you're new to, you know, kind of Kubernetes or new to working in the cloud in general, it can be really easy to fall into that trap that now you're totally locked to one provider. And so I think kind of having a little bit of an independent player, you know, doing your initial layout makes it so that you're less likely to get accidentally kind of vendor locked. I mean, I know for me, it's, you know, I think, or at least I assume, right, that a lot of organizations, you know, only end up vendor locked by accident. Like they don't, they don't intend to be using the feature set that is required to get them in Amazon or wherever. So I think it's really good to have a little bit of an independent player there. Yeah, that's a real story. And then even that people don't know that, we already locked in because the feature set is pretty comparable to use that because you don't need to run something new and then there are just some low learning paths. And then you just start it and you get used that kind of stuff. But in the end after six months, oh, we got locked in. So we never have a chance to go to the other Kubernetes cluster. And even if it's a Kubernetes, it's still open source community, but we cannot go there. So that's pretty weird. So that's kind of thing. And by the way, this is cool. I mean, this cube by example. Yeah, yeah. It's pretty much the first, the inside the car and the inner view. Right, right. And it's pretty awesome. And then whether it's really cool today. It's, yeah, it's a little grayer than I expected, but I thought it was gonna be a little sunnier. Yeah. But we'll see what it looks like. But yeah, so we decided we're kind of, I guess we launched Twitter handle today for a cube by example. And obviously there's some presence at KubeCon and a lot of jazz. So yeah, one of the people involved with the program who actually has been on the insider show to talk about the new forums and stuff. She came up with the idea and I was like, oh yeah, I'm totally all in. Let's go drive around and interview people. So yeah, but we gotta make sure it's got a good route and we'll kind of do it along. And I think it's been pretty good so far. Yeah, sure. So I wanna shout out once again to KubeCon if you have any chance to stop by to KubeCon this week. And then thanks for the forward. And then they actually support us to make this happening. It was a nice car. And the random actually, you're gonna talk a little bit about the forward success story with some kind of pattern. Yeah, yeah, so we're doing Wednesday. We have a talk on Wednesday. It's like 4.30 I think. And we're actually gonna do a panel discussion about how. Don't miss that. It's a pretty cool. So how Ford is doing using Kube by example with their developers to try to kind of bring them to doing development the cloud native way. And so yeah, when we heard about it, we were like, hey, that's a great, that's a great story for both KubeCon and for Kube by example. Yeah, exactly. So we actually running in the electric car and then this is like some kind of actually technologies. And then all information gathering like a telemetry data into the cloud. Well, I mean, I know a lot of organizations are pursuing containerization for in the car, which is like, it's just crazy. Like the amount of software, like the amount of software we're running in this car right now. Yeah, exactly. And then it makes a driver and passenger a little bit more comfortable and more safe. Even though we keep talking when you're driving. Right, right. So you're doing a workshop today though, right? Yeah, exactly. Thanks for sharing that. So we have the open to the commons and then we call hosting conveyor workshop. So not only showcase what conveyor is and then what is the roadmap, but also we give them people have some hands-on experience and how to start and know what the conveyor looks like. So it's good, just one hour even. But after the workshop, if you, you can visit it, KubeBuy, for example, or reach out to any red header and then you can go to, even if you have a chance to stop by KubeCon. Anytime swing by Red Hat booth, we are more than happy to share the more details. But once again, today we're gonna start at nine, but the Hangar workshop is starting 10. It's one hour, but it should be fun. But don't forget, bring your laptop. Right, right. Are you, and so, let's say you do miss it today, is there an opportunity to kind of go and do the workshop on your own or something like that? Yeah, that's a really good question. So the workshop is, I'm gonna make it available, but so you can actually, the old workshop content is available in a public gift repo. However, so if you ask any Red Hat sales folks and then we are more than happy to support and provide the workshop environment for free. Oh yeah. And we're gonna go to your customer side to where we're gonna bring you into one of the Red Hat office. And just to, just spare with us like a half day, well, full day, we are more than happy to, yeah, address not only conveyor, but also we also have like an SRE track and a business track as well. It's not gonna hand you on though, but so business track, we're gonna talk a little bit more like the strategy and then like planning and how to go to your cloud and not only hand you on stuff. Yeah, I mean, I think, to be honest, right? I think a lot of developers don't kind of fully appreciate the importance of like, essentially like a project portfolio or like, you know, when I was in consulting, one of the things we specialized in was actually doing, you know, portfolio roadmaps, you know, around modernization, in particular, it was like the early days of the cloud. And so we were, you know, kind of come in and actually help them plan how they were gonna get, you know, all their existing applications and also try to recognize all the new applications they were building and how they were gonna get them into the cloud. And, you know, it gave me a real strong appreciation for like how hard that is, you know, to really understand it and the value there. Because if everybody's kind of going all directions, all at the same time, you never get anywhere, you know? So I think that's actually a pretty valuable component. The other thing I was gonna say about the workshop was like, I've been trying to stand up this data server called CCAN and like, it's so nice to have an expert kind of show you how to do something the first time, you know, where like, you know, I'm just trying to like fight through the docs, trying to figure out how to make it work, you know? And like, there's all that stuff you get from experience that you, it's just impossible to document about like, what's the right way to set it up? You know, what's the, what are the tricks? When am I gonna forget later? Have to rearch at that later? And I think it makes a big difference if you can have somebody who's kind of showing you the ropes and then when you run into a problem, you can kind of ask the question. Right, right, yeah, I totally agree with that. And so their workshop, it's mostly like workshops, many for constant only developers or sometimes for people, but something is the, maybe the decision maker, like some CTO level or even the architect that they are really happy for like a next journey or next technology. However, the rest of them, like 80% of your organization, they don't like the decision because, oh, we're gonna go to like some migration tool with this one and then we're gonna go to like AKS or all of the Kubernetes cluster. However, the individual developer or individual SRE, we don't like that. That's the problem. So that's why, secured by examples and like a conveyor project, we're not gonna only focus on developer, but also ops people and then even decision maker for helping and understanding what their next journey should be. Well, you often feel like, right, is that you have like some architect level person, you know, kind of making some decision, you know, and then there's like a magic happens here and then the developer gets handed it, right? And you're like, wait, what? So I think, you know, kind of going back to conveyor, it's like, hopefully that's providing some of that, you know, magic happens here component as well as it seems particularly well suited to kind of portfolio planning, right? I mean, the entire tool is about, you know, doing that kind of movement. Yeah, that's 100% agree. So it's just showcased the variety of the approach, how to add management just like a portfolio. So some part of that is handed by developer and some part of them is by a decision maker and then the rest of them is by SRV or platform engineers. And in the end, you can combine all these and requirement even potential issue. You can handle that by your cross teams. Yeah, that's the beauty of the conveyor project to help them. Yeah, totally. So what do you think or what are you kind of most looking forward to in like, let's say the next six months, any of the projects you're kind of involved with? So that's a really good question. So, you know, also I'm most likely focus on some kind of more realistic practice. For example, yeah, I wanna say I'm just like a ordinary Java guys. And so problem is there are many Java application around the world and across industries. Problem is everybody wants to go to cloud and Kubernetes or some stuff. And what is the best practice to integrate like some brand new technology. For example, oh, I can deploy my application to cloud or Kubernetes. But I don't know how to integrate my application deployment or build strategy or practice with the existing like a CI CD. Or we have a CI CD like a Jenkins. It's a 10 years old grow man. However, in the Kubernetes, maybe it's too old. So what is your newest kind of stuff like a tech tone or RBC, it's a new brand new stuff. So, you know, also I have some like old truck and now I need to buy a new brand like an electric car by Ford. And but I don't know how to drive. Because you know, also we just try to figure it out how to open trunk. Right, right. Yeah, we've had a number of troubles. Like you can figure out how to open the trunk. You can figure out how to like charge the car. It's just like a big iPad on the central panel and oh, we cannot find the button, where is that? But obviously it's just somewhere on the right side but there's no, okay, that's the thing. So that's gonna, I'm gonna help and evangelize the not only developer but also like a platform engineers. Bring their business services into cloud with integration or with the like some, both the world, like the get-offs and then like a sub-ass and a sub-ass match because some people say oh, that's not my responsibility somewhere like for them, but it's not true because we are working together as a teamer not by like a individual contributor. Yeah, that's why I'm really looking forward to evangelize like a sub-ass and a sub-ass match and get-offs stuff. Yeah, with the of course Kubernetes and then most likely not gonna try to just presentation it's more like create more valuable content like demo and hinge on and then like a sample code which means that everyone just can replicate it there if they want. Yeah, that's what I'm looking forward to. And then you know also, I so thankful because I got so many inspiration during the QCON. Even if some, I mean the booth area, so there are so many vendors and so many people actually showcase their new stuff. Right, right. Based on. That's one of the things I always get to me about conferences, like you always get me jazzed up, right, because you're like, oh, you know, hey, I'm like re-engaging kind of with the you know the ecosystem, with the community and it's always like a really positive experience. And then I just know and then what is the trend is. So for example, a year ago in the QCON, Los Angeles and then I saw a lot of vendors actually try to showcase their multi-cloud problem and of course, migration tool from these Kubernetes and that Kubernetes. Right. It's actually one of the capability conveyor as well. So and then this is some kind of trend what people really want to showcase which means that there was a market trend and then these came out. So this is a really good opportunity to figure it out. What technology really interesting by ecosystem, specifically QCON. That's one of the big reason I always wanted to be attend the QCON. Right, right. Not only like an ambassador stuff, but also it's more like interaction. Right, right, right. Yeah, I mean it's funny that again, the little conference I do devconf.us, we do, we try to, we actually offer attendee training because if it's your first conference, whatever like what is the hallway track? And I think it's really important to like kind of as you say, it's like that's half the value, right? It's like getting to see people you don't see very often maybe getting to meet some engineer who works on a thing that you care a lot about. And I think that's a huge part. I ran into Luke Hynes, for example, just this morning, you know, outside. And you know, so we were chit chatting a bit about what he's doing, you know, but he was on the show back then. That was really awesome. And then, you know, I was there too. And yeah, thanks for having me by the way. So you know, one of the impressive thing in the last devconf in the Boston area. So I saw the college student actually came out in the podium and they actually showcased their internal project. Which is super awesome because whenever we just go to any conference, maybe it's not the young stuff. Right, it's all the people who are really strong, right? Yeah, people already have some like maybe 10 years experience and they say, oh, I'm super professional, something like that. But however, so whenever we some inspire like some new technology, but we don't know actually like a college is to feel that. Right, right. Yeah, I mean, it's one of the nice things about working at the university now, right? It's like, you know, I have all these students and then we also, you know, we showcase some of the interns at that conference, but we get to see their excitement, you know, their interest and how they want to change the world. You know, and it's really interesting. And it really does kind of, at least for me, reincorporate me back into like try to give me back some of that early excitement about what can happen. At the same time, it's also funny. It's like how inexperienced they are, which you don't kind of realize, because at least for me, right? It's like, I don't feel like I know anything. And then, you know, and then I meet some of these students and I'm like, oh, wow, all right, you've got a little ways to go. Yeah, exactly, yeah. So it's totally different approach to how they're looking at the technologies. And then they are more like, okay, maybe some college is done, yeah, I need to find a more high chance or opportunity to get new job based on their technology. And so they don't believe the market, like report things like that. So this is brand new. And then I really like that. So you should keep doing this, you know, they have come and yeah, thank God. I really like it. It's a lot of fun. The Boston University professor, which is a really good position to bring this one. And I'm so thankful. Yeah, no, it's been, it was, we had the idea a few years ago and it's been really great. You know, it's, I think it's worked out really well. It's always a lot of fun to do it. And the students are super excited. So, which is cool. Yeah, and then you also did the Monday actually there at CubeCon for kids. Yeah, I know, I miss, they used to do it in front of Red Hat Summit and I really miss it. It was really cool. I didn't even know that. When I arrived and I just find out, oh, there are some small workshop for the kids and then like the pie thing, like a raspberry pie. And then they actually develop some kind of the Minecraft. Did they do Minecraft modeling? Yeah. You know, so I have a 10 years boy, my son, and he really into that. Yeah. Yeah, so I brought, I brought my kids the one in front of Red Hat Summit. Yeah, it's really cool. Did you, did you actually get into it or did you just, you saw the note? Yeah, I arrived there, it's already end, I saw that there was some happening there, but I didn't know that. Well, what I was super impressed by, I assume it's still true, but the Mozilla actually writes a lot of the stuff that they deliver at that. That's cool. And like that stuff's all actually available and it's really good and really like, you know, understandable and all that stuff. And yeah, I really like, I like the whole event as well as the fact that, you know, Mozilla actually kind of puts a lot of investment into it too. So, you know, but that's a great order too. Yeah, that's really cool. And yeah, yeah, we're gonna maybe some figure out how do we make it available or available for QBuy examples. Yeah. Stop as well for the kid. Right. Because they, they're a potential super awesome developer in the 10 years. Right, right, exactly. Yeah. And it's really, it's hard to make this stuff accessible. I mean, I think that's one of the things that I find a little difficult is, we were joking about this earlier, is like, I'm not that into hardware, but it's a lot easier, I think, for a kid to engage with like a Raspberry Pi or whatever, than it is to like, you know, build a Kubernetes cluster, right? Exactly, exactly, yeah. It's a lot more, you know, real feeling. Yeah, I think it's so creative. So, even though we don't even think about it, and then, oh, they're gonna use this platform or technology with it so much different ways. Well, and it's also so natural for them, right? Exactly, yeah. It's like, you know, all us old people who didn't grow up, you know, directly in, you know, in computers, you know. Because we already narrowed some eyes, okay, we're gonna just use this kind of stuff or the kind of thing, but the, oh, it turns out, wow, you just so creative thing. Right, because they'll put things all together wrong, you know, and end up with really cool things, which it wouldn't even occur to us to put together. Yeah, and of course, so we're gonna add, bring more some kind of the gaming stuff. That's one of the attractive thing for kids. Yeah, like Roblox or Minecraft, it's a good motivation. Yeah, I think one of the Mozilla ones is like a JavaScript thing, where it's like a platformer and the way you have to play the game is by writing JavaScript to give you the next platform to jump onto. Yeah, it's really pretty cool. Yeah, exactly, my son actually, once again, he actually never ever asked me about the program language, but a couple of months ago and some of the vacation, he actually asked him about JavaScript. Oh, really? So how do you know that word, JavaScript? And then, oh, yeah, I just know that, how to customize the Roblox map. Oh, yeah. It's a bit of a JavaScript. Right, right. Okay, oh, that's a deal. Okay, that's a really good approach to learn new technology. Right, right, well, it's funny because that's, in some ways, a lot of people say it's the same motivation as an open source, is like, you get into open source because you want to scratch your own itch, right? It's like, something about the computer is making you crazy, so you go fix it, right? That exactly reminds me, it's because when I just started my son's age, like a 10 years boy, when I was there, so I just started the computer stuff for fun. Yeah, not some kind of purpose. Right. Yeah, so, and then at a time, I'm so enjoyed spending my time to make some programming stuff. Right, right. All right, so I'm here, and then hopefully, you got a next, who is the next speaker? Oh, yeah, so next up, we're gonna talk to Liz Rice. Oh. And so that'll be pretty cool. Yeah. And, but yeah, thanks so much for coming by, you sure? Sure, and thanks for having me. Yeah. And then I'll talk to you soon. Yeah. See you guys. Yeah. Yeah.