 So, this panel is about business transformation. And these are two of our friends, two friends of mine. And as a nine-year-old that's the same age as my nine-year-old, and they play together. And so that's how we actually know each other quite well through that. They have the same birthday, so we've even shared birthday parties. But, beyond that, Jonathan was a prior son President and CEO did that through its transition as it got acquired by Oracle. So, some interesting stories on that sort of transformation. And Jonathan started a new company called CareZone. And I've been able to watch from the sidelines how CareZone has developed and have learned a tremendous amount watching how Jonathan's navigated creating a new business to meet the needs of a community. And to watch how it went from a different initial idea to one that's much more powerful. So thrilled to have him here. And then Victoria Hale, too. I think many of you may know Victoria. And by the way, Jonathan sits on the MTM advisory board. Victoria sits on the CTSI board. And Victoria started One World Health. So One World Health is a, say, non-profit company, basically. Is that fair to say? Pharmaceutical company. Non-profit pharmaceutical company. And was started with some great ideas and some initial core funding from Gates and then has evolved over time in terms of its business model. Victoria, once it was running beautifully, she left and went to Gates for a little while and now has started a new company, also a non-profit pharmaceutical company, called Medicine 360 that's working on products for reproductive health in women. And Victoria has been very useful to us in thinking about models for, you know, where did non-profits belong? Where do for-profits belong? How can they work together? Where are those gaps? And thinking very creatively about those boundaries. So I'm thrilled to have them here and we're going to just talk about, they're going to tell us, give us some insights and then we're going to just chat about business transformation and how it might be useful to us. So thank you guys for coming. All right, so again, thanks you guys. Did you both get lunch? We did. We've been bed and watered. Yeah. Okay, good. So I thought it would be good to start by just giving each of you a chance to sort of tell your story and pick whatever, I mean their story, your whole stories are too long, but pick the key parts that might be informative to a group that's thinking about how to move from a more entitlement based approach to one that's built more on a sustainability model. So I don't know, Victoria, do you want to start? Sure. It goes first or it comes from who you are as an individual, right? Where your spirit is derived from. What your character is about. And I learned pretty early that I'm quite entrepreneurial. I'm quite spirited. I'm quite opinionated and I want to, I love making medicines, but I want to do them in the way that I want to do them. And I spent a lot of time looking for outlets for that and didn't find what satisfied me, which was to provide important medicines for people who otherwise are not big targets, right? Big customers to use your words. And to figure out how to get to them. One way to do that is to do it through a nonprofit model where you have different drivers and different outcomes. But there are limits to that model. As you know, you're in an academic center and nonprofit institutions. For-profit pathways are limited as well. So my journey has been for more than 12 years now to create something that is neither of those. To state and demonstrate to others and bring others along to say that we have some false dualities and false dichotomies. That we actually don't have to choose between what is a nonprofit and a for-profit. That's IRS's categorization of it and it's tax law and it's complicated. But we as individuals, if we're really about our mission and our purpose, then the exact dimensions and characteristics and structures of our business model are something that we can figure out as we move along. That they're really part of our toolkit, this business model structure. And that we should keep our eye on what is our real goal, our real purpose, our real mission. And then figure out the business as we go along. And hire some really smart attorneys who are willing to be on the edge and you have to have some money for that. So not to settle, I suppose my, I'm not sure that was a story, Clay, but it's an invitation and an inspiration and a calling to say don't settle for what are the obvious, right? Structures and boundaries that breaking through and creating a middle space, let's say, or a space that's just outside of those two is something that's very important to do. And just because you talk to lots of people and none of them tells you that that is possible doesn't mean it isn't true. It just means it may be a little lonely for a while. Great, thanks. Well, that's a far more profound answer than I'll provide. So I've only ever been in the for-profit world. And for me, and I think one of the things that's very motivating in being able to spend time with folks like you, the most successful businesses that I've ever been a part of are those that marry an individual's passion with a market opportunity. And the good news is your market opportunities to go save lives, that's fairly motivating. You don't find that frequently in the for-profit world. And so what I've spent my career trying to do is, one, recognize that very early on when I was a part of a little startup. And then through successive acquisitions or just being a part of a new organization, just consistently realizing that the most productivity tends to go along with really smart people who are highly motivated by what they think is a great outcome, not just simply a financial outcome, but whether it's a spiritual outcome or an environmental outcome or a health outcome. And that's kind of led me to what I do now, which is I was walking along with my 11-year-old, who Clay also knows, who is not to be blamed for the apparent injury to his left arm. And he asked me, you know, a couple weeks ago, Dad, if you could have any job, what would you do? And I looked at him and I said, I would do what I'm doing right now. I mean, every day I wake up, I love what I do and I'll tell you a little bit about that at some point, I'm sure. And his response was, no, seriously. I mean, if you get any job. So I think it's very important to, you know, that's a part of personal sustainability, which is, no matter what you're doing, if you care a lot about it, the economics tend to work out. You tend to figure it out because you're so passionate about it. The odds are good you've done a good job on behalf of your end consumers. And, you know, to what Clay said before, capitalism has this really neat way of kind of resolving loss of conflicts because they come down to, is there any value in what you're doing? And if the answer is yes, then you'll find a way to catch it. Yeah, well, you make a really interesting point about people being motivated by what they do. So on the faculty side, we are actually in some ways competing with the standard vision of what faculty members should be doing and what many of them are motivated to do. So in essence, each one acts, you know, you've got your little lab and acts like its own little isolated startup with it setting its own goals and all of that. And what we're asking people to do is step out of that and think about, well, how can we make the whole ecosystem better for not just you, but all these other faculty at the institution so it's interesting because that complicates, you know, how we engage. We have to bring something else too to say, okay, this, and I think that's too why we focus on creating transforming models too of support. It's not just about providing a service, it's about how can we do that better and create a model for the world in doing it. Yeah. But if there, yeah, I mean, it gets... But I think one of the, so when Minnie and I were talking yesterday, I think one of the complicating things when you're talking about business models specifically is business models are rarely something you want to, you know, delegate to the leaf nodes because then you end up with how many people are in the room, 150 or so people, and you end up with 150 business models which is completely un-understandable to your end consumer. On the other hand, ideas around business models are something you want to collect from the leaf nodes because they know most about what the end value is and they can articulate in ways that maybe the trunk of the tree won't understand and create ideas and create opportunities. So I think that the concept you were talking about before of having to develop new business models and think creatively about how you do it, you know, in some sense you want to do that all the time, but on the other hand, when you actually make decisions on how you'll do things differently, you probably don't want that to happen 150 different ways or you'll end up with chaos. Right, yeah. Can I add as well, in my experience, it's not just people inside an organization such as this who would want to do that, your goals would be that, but there are philanthropists as well and funders who want to do things differently. In the global aid community, there's quite a bit of frustration with how many resources have been applied to problems in global health and how little real forward movement or success or change there really is. So there are many, let's say, beginnings of acceptance and understanding of what that means. So what do we do about it? And one of the major initiatives that I believe is coming forward is a belief that aid itself and charity itself creates some problems and alters the environment that you intend to move in one direction. And it disturbs natural social entrepreneurs that are there and other dynamics. So thinking about models that we build is not just something that we should do and sustainability, but that funders are already thinking about and understanding and obviously people who we intend to benefit are as well. They're living in. You've obviously been very successful at bringing together philanthropists or other foundations, whatever, into your vision. So do you want to just talk about how you began that process? Where did you even start? Was the nugget of the idea yours? Was it changed in any way through your discussions with others? Or did it stay purely your own? What did you give up in taking their money? Yeah, so at One World Health we worked primarily on three programs, one in Leishman Isis, one in malaria and one in cholera. And they were about $50 million each, so $150 million total. That's a lot of funding first. So initially it was, well, we'll give you a little bit of money and we'll see how it goes. So nine grants in total to that amount. By the end, really, I had given up some autonomy and governance in the organization. That was something that I knew would happen at that level of funding that I think is appropriate to happen. One thing that I didn't want to give up to look inside myself, take some time off and understand what would be next for me is control. I can say I'm a very controlling person. I know that about me now. And I have a vision and I bring a team together as you do in corporations and you want to empower them to really move forward and learn. Actually, so change that strategic plan that was the basis of this first or the funding that you have. So moving with change and taking funders with you, balancing control and control of what? Is it control of the details of every day and stepping forward? Or is it control of the larger vision? And who is leading and who should be empowered? Whose voice should be the loudest? It's something that we all need to understand and accept and you make deals. There's a quote that's often heard in my household which is there's a fine line between helpful and controlling. I wonder who says that in your house. Both of us. I mean, having gone through I'd never raised money in a private company up until very recently, up until about 60 days ago because I'd been in a little start-up that had we had no choice. We had no money, no one would dare give us any money and so we had to figure it out on our own and we had lots of sacrifices and that ended up working out very well but it was definitely slower and harder and there was a whole lot of learning that went on and I then ended up being the leader of a big public company and public financings for the most part are very straightforward, they're very transparent because there's a market. Everybody knows what the price of money is and you have lots of people bid on supplying you financing and there's not a whole lot of change that occurs in general in large public financings. There are when you go public and then for the first time ever I just went through the process of raising money for a start-up and it was fascinating. I suspect it's not dissimilar to raising money from foundations which is there are lots of egos involved not just your own. Your first pitch is your worst pitch so don't set up your best opportunity as we did. And you learn a lot about yourself and you also see where those individuals are going to want to play a role and again I mean this quote just kept bringing through my head as I was listening to these people thinking wow you really want to be helpful and translation, you really want to be controlling. But in a way as victorious that's a healthy thing because often times they can be helpful and you can find other very interesting feedback or input or ideas that you wouldn't have had on your own. Very interesting. I mean the other place where that plays out for us is how we work with the other existing organizations within the institution that are funded through the chancellor's office or the schools and we have to think carefully about how we work together when is there a you know and usually the answer is that the sense of controlling is overblown that working together you benefit much more than you do and I think you can also tend to filter out the folks who really are going to be kind of negatively controlling they tend to surface fairly quickly and in some fairly obvious ways and you just say well thank you very much for your interest you're not you know although you were among the pool of highly qualified candidates you weren't the top. Right. So John I think you're what you went through with care zone is instructive you know where you started with that idea for that company and how it evolved over time and why it evolved over time to what it's become. So first of all the care zone is a web service and it's designed for all of you when you when it comes time for you to take care of your parents or take care of your children where do you do that today probably wouldn't want to do that on Facebook and if you're like me you're doing that through emails and Google Docs and trying to write stuff down and stuff in your desk drawer but if you have someone in need in your house or in your family where is it that you create a profile manage documents about them information about them contacts if you have to share them with somebody keep track of what medicines they might be on or what therapies or keep a journal and that's basically what care zone is it's a private place to take care of somebody and it was born because I had a child 11 years ago who had some issues that my wife and I were constantly tracking typically in her upper right-hand drawer and then we'd be on the road and we wouldn't have access to it or then a caregiver, a babysitter would come over and we'd want them to have access there was no way to do that simultaneously I had a brother who has lots and lots of complicated health issues with his family and so we spent some time talking about it and it always kind of lingered in the back of my mind it would be great to go solve that problem but there was a much more immediate problem which is actually one of the first ways that I got to know Clay my wife invited one of her best friends to move into an in-law unit in our house she was going through a really hard time and she just needed a space to kind of get back on her feet she's 46 years old and a month after moving in she had a catastrophic stroke and she's 46 years old so I ended up talking to Clay about this on a no doubt at a birthday party and he said something which really struck me and my partner who had been trying to figure out how do we go start a business and he said you know the number one cause of stroke is you just didn't take your high blood pressure medicine and so Walter and I looked at one another and said surely we can make a difference with that I mean how hard would it be to remind people to take their medicines and bump up in adherence surely that would have a big impact and so we started actually working with Clay to figure out how we would go do that and for a whole variety of reasons that was a really good thing that we will again go back to it was just hard to wrap a business around it and so we took a step back and said let's go actually solve the broader problem first before we go you know set on the more narrow problem of now that we know what medicines you're taking how do we help you do a better job of staying adherent to them the grand shift for me was I didn't know anything about consumer marketing when I started Carezone I had nothing about it at all I've been running big enterprise infrastructure businesses and this was like trying to sell the moms over the web it's a very different world a very different set of skills but I care deeply about the problem everyone that works in our little company has a very motivating story about why they want to work here based on a problem that they're trying to solve with their families and if you've got that nucleus of power you can go do anything I mean I look at the team that we have now they're so productive and so fast and so efficient because they're all solving problems that matter to them and they know that will matter to others and so organizations change all the time I looked at Clay's slides from the back every leader has to put those slides up at some point it's time for us to change we're going to come back and he's probably going to give the same speech they would take a Colorado nothing about Colorado and change is just if only the world would stop changing then we wouldn't have to but change is it's an ingredient in life so you've got to take advantage of it good perfect sorry I'm distracted I just I realize I don't have a copy of the agenda so I can't remember when how much more time we have so thank you so you better keep this job so Victoria so you and I had a great conversation I don't know a couple weeks ago about the sort of dance that you play and I you know it got me thinking a lot about how we tend to work within sort of these expectations of what we are right so we're an academic center and so we do this but we don't do this we're a nonprofit you don't make money you don't pay people well could you just talk a little bit about that to this group because I think that some of the warnings that you put out there are worth us hearing and thinking through as well so we talked about a few things can you give me a few words to help me remember we talked about so many things but it was the issue of when nonprofits start to act in part like for-profits and the risks that come with that so in particular you sent me that book to read Uncharitable by Dan Pallotta is a great book we'll start with that about lessons that were learned through many of you will remember when nonprofits suddenly started to have very high level fundraising events, long bike rides or runs or these national days for breast cancer or whatever the organization that is responsible for bringing these forward was actually a for-profit entity and you can read the book but that was a no go not because it was illegal but because it didn't look good it didn't look good that a for-profit company should take a significant chunk of this 10 or 100 times amount of funding that the charity had before this event should take a big piece of that so how do you as a nonprofit address these market failures in the world or market gaps if you're not allowed to bring in the best consultants pay the best salaries retain the best fundraisers et cetera et cetera and we really need to ask ourselves how impactful we can be if we don't have access to the best resources which is what Jonathan needs to be able to have access to and has much more freedom I would argue to do and expectations therefore of you what are our expectations even if those are our boundary conditions and our limitations what are our limits of ourselves and what can society expect nonprofits to do and if we understand that there are limits with for-profits there are limits with nonprofits how about trying to take the best of both about trying to move forward in that way and this is where another issue that comes up is how many people can hold that in their head there are many people who are interested in hybrids there are many people who are interested in taking the best of for-profit and a nonprofit when it comes down to it it's really hard to do so there are issues with board management there are issues with funders One World Health helped to form a for-profit company that's spun out of UC Berkeley called Amras and One World Health was not allowed to have an equity position or to have a board seat in this company for reasons that we can talk about later if that's important just because of the view of what a nonprofit should do and what's reasonable it wasn't illegal but what it looks like this comes up a lot too at UCSF so we're definitely in the position now where we're creating entities that are that are better as for-profits and how do we manage that and we're pretty restricted by rules of the university in terms of how those handoffs occur but as we create a larger and larger variety of entities there's this temptation to manage them in-house and then how does that work if they're too successful and it's getting more and more complicated Yeah But I think the same actually occurs in the private sector as well because you have one business and then for whatever reason you end up with a whole series of assets which might be valuable but they can't be managed by the organization that's there because they don't fit into the strategic vision the worst of all possible worlds the success of that business would actually erode your relationships with your current customers I mean one way that a lot of companies are running into this now is they're looking at their patent pools and saying hey we got a lot of IP who would we use that against well jeez we'd use it against our customers Yeah So let's go spin off those patents Let somebody else do it Let somebody else do the dirty work Interesting You made the transition from okay let's solve the taking year any hypertensives to well let's solve this core problem of how we share documents in a private space for health you went back to people and you asked them what is it that you really need to you want to talk about that because that's something else that we don't do as much as we could So we you know my favorite answer to a problem is based on sample size one which is I go ask Sophie my wife and then she gives me an answer and that's our default answer unless we have data and that actually keeps decisions really really fast but I don't like those answers because they're sample size one and Sophie lives in San Francisco and I'll actually I'll give you a great example of this we're looking at ways to incent people to sign up for our service you can just go to carezone.com and sign up for the service and there's no billing right now and we were trying to figure out ways to do it and I said to Sophie hey Sophie if you sign up and recommend it to your friends how would you feel if we sent you five dollars for having one of your friends sign up and she said that's disgusting I would never do that that's the most offensive thing I can think of and well that's because she doesn't need the five bucks you go talk to somebody who might want the five dollars you'll end up with a very different answer so we try to make decisions based on data and not on Sophie and we try to be very clear we are doing one or the other but our decision process and one of the wonderful things about the internet is it enables you to connect with and talk to a huge population of people reasonably quickly and as we do that when you sit and listen to them they end up telling you personal stories and starting to articulate market requirements that they may not be able to describe in exact implementation detail we give you a rough idea of what they're actually looking to do and as that happens you know now that we're kind of this is one of the things that I love about a consumer business versus an enterprise business typically in an enterprise business if you want to get data from the marketplace you hold a golf event and you bring 200 CIOs in from across the world and then after lots of alcohol you find out with only those 200 people care about and unfortunately your market is 200,000 it's very difficult to gather data in our world we have 20 suggestions a day and we know what people care about so there's actually data that we can use to make decisions about how we run our business and that process that connection back to customers ends up being not just good in the instant but then when you do what your customers want they pay you more and they get even happier because we don't do 9 out of 10 things we think we ought to do we're not doing them we've only had resources and time to do one and so we get lots of feedback constantly about all the things we don't do but then we actually tell people we heard them and we say thank you for the feedback and it's like they're happier so that process of just listening and engaging is in and of itself very beneficial we've done that so we've listened to you all the people who come to our retreats but also the people who are engaged in CTSI so we have systems we set aside some of our resources to go to projects that are actually from anybody on the campus it just ends up that people who know us better tend to put those ideas forward but we don't often go down to the students and say what is it that you want sometimes we do that we get feedback from courses they're taking but not what's missing and we don't do that for participants in research how is your experience today we do that for patients but not so much so I think there are some lessons there to think about how we might expand the areas in which we get input well and I think to the extent that you have a broader audience than you could meet so if you're dealing with a thousand students or ten thousand students the odds are good you're not going to be able to touch or talk to every one of them but you know just again good news you have the internet too here right here we do just making it a core part of what you do that no matter what you've done the link is available to send you feedback even unstructured you just read through what people are talking about you'll learn things you never learned before yeah it's a great suggestion we do that for some of our internet properties I'm using that fancy word that I hear my folks use but not for others so yeah I'm sure we could do that much much more useful you can always ignore the advice but at least you have it and I imagine you too Victoria it's a similar you wasn't just your idea this is what we need so medicines 360 was born into a community a community with an anonymous donor a funder who funds lots of reproductive health and reproductive justice causes and organizations even policy work and one of the major takeaways for us is that this is really a different way of doing business and particularly after your medicines or technologies are developed there's marketing that is top down and we have the vision of what this market is and we're going to tell you and we're going to maybe even create a disease and then convince you that you need a cure for this disease it's something that the pharmaceutical industry does very well with contraception it's not a disease and we want women to seek what they want and through trusted community providers so partnerships with providers is the way all this is going to happen particularly in developing countries but even in the United States with the US public sector and communicating with partners even you talked a little bit about partners in terms of between schools or institutes but we haven't talked about the value we haven't named it you were speaking of it Jonathan but the value of how do you value those 20 people who gave you input last hour in our particular question that you asked how do you value and the ability to have an incredibly honest and open and trusting relationship with partners who are going to make all the difference in terms of really getting to vision and impact and then relationships with customers and you know end users as well so there are many types of engagements and information and many levels of communication that are all very valuable so how do I would encourage you to look at all of those different types and how do you value them and you may have been giving them away for a long time that's what you do and to revisit at this time is that really the best way to have impact the software industry has been great about giving things away and that's a beautiful way to launch products and initiatives and it's incredible but considering where we come from in academia and in science in particular share it all right we want replication we want it to carry forward I think sometimes we need to step back to these very basic assumptions and ask is this really should it always be like that should everything we do be like that what is value and is the greatest chance of achieving your vision and mission accomplished by giving it away or by selling it or by there's not just A or Z right what are the names for the ways in between yeah in fact you couldn't do what you do if you didn't sell the products of the work right no one would invest no one would produce the drug no one would distribute it so definitely in everything we do no matter how clear the mission is up front this is what we're trying to do ultimately there has to be some return to but to Victoria's point I mean it's not like the software industry happily went down the process of getting to new business models I mean customers didn't like it any change for the most part change is just hard change for customers, change for vendors you know take the time with really smart people and sit down and say let's go re-examine what value we actually think we're delivering who should be paying for it or where the natural you know who's getting the advantage you ought to be paying for who is currently paying for it and how do we begin to kind of move those things around again if what you're doing has value someone will pay for it's just a matter of you know identifying who it is when we told you guys that we were going to be talking about information you both bristled a little bit and said don't forget about your mission so do you want to just why did you have that we don't want to lose our mission that's crucial so where did that response come from what's the warning that we need to take away and we have to be mostly I mean we really have to be about our mission that's why we're here so how do we preserve that and still think about being sustainable so in the non-profit sector there's a phrase called mission drift and it is perhaps it's similar there you go you go where the money is and you deviate from what is your mission if your mission is large enough and perhaps it is here that it's an umbrella that can hold many different right specific objectives and targets and goals and programs with a lot of non-profit organizations that's not the case and you actually need to focus focusing while you're adhering to your mission is sometimes a difficult thing to do for many organizations that is many really end up out there and their effort to grow bigger thinking bigger is better rather than partnering so how often will you become big right we're at a university here that's part of the state of California you know how big is good and how big is not good right and how much is partnership if you're not going to get big how are you going to achieve your mission right and your vision is that through partnership what are the other ways to do it without becoming so big and therefore needing so many resources and perhaps needing to creep or drift with your mission I think in the private sector world it's a little bit clear because your principal objective is to maximize shareholder value and so you know there's rarely or that's not to say so when you're moving toward something because it's a bigger market for the most part you're going to look at scans at that and say that was done on the other hand there are all kinds of things and I guess my response to the kind of coming back to but what's your mission what is it you're trying to accomplish revenue generation is not your mission and I guarantee you in this room there are enough really bright ideas and really good services and great intellectual property that you could go set up lots of different entities they probably go make a lot of money they would alienate you from your core objective to violate all kinds of principles or brands that you hold dear so it's really trying to look at what is the objective you're trying to accomplish first and foremost and now what are the enablers you can use from the business model as opposed to what new business models could we come up with I mean the one that I've been spending way too much of my time on is patent litigation you all create intellectual property go create a bunch of patents you could sue a lot of people you could make way more than the 50 million just on one suit alone probably not really it doesn't help you progress your mission it might help you let's talk Eric we would stop being friends after that yeah I mean actually another good example so we at CareZone people share it's there I mean we don't have access to the data people are talking about the problems that their families have and every problem has some family issue one way or another it's just aging it's development doesn't have to be health related and we had a large medical supply company come to us and say hey you actually know among your customers the people who would be most likely to buy our supplies so why don't you just give us access to them and we'll pay you just gobs and gobs of money and that was like a five second conversation he's like you must be kidding today that would have meant a lot more money but you know that would have meant a lot fewer customers because who wants to share private family information with a medical supply company and a pharmaceutical company it's just that's not that's not how people manage their families yeah great well this has been a great discussion I want to open it up to to the audience and see if there are any questions out there yeah Eric yeah is he the lawyer? no he's not a lawyer he's a techie yeah I think we're about a few times either in finding a good source of income or having other institutions look at us and say hey oh you need to anticipate you need to know that it's going to happen and you need to plan for it and you need to manage it and you need to be thick skinned but have the organization above you in particular very welcoming accepting and supportive of regardless of the turbulence that you experience on this journey that this is where you need to go but you have to know that it's going to come because you're leading you're on that leading edge and I guess I'd give you a related answer so we're about to go off and do a bunch of hiring and I've been in a very big organization and I'm in a very tiny organization and the person who's going to go off and do some hiring is like well I'm ready to go I got the ideas of who I want to hire and I got some money I'm going to go make it happen I said no actually I want you to write down based on what's on the wall I'm going to hire everyone in the company so they know what our values are so we know who's going to fit and who's not going to fit and they're like well why do we want to waste the time doing that it's like well if you don't have your values well understood now then you're going to end up with a banner ad for a medical supply company on a UCSF property and that's probably not going to fly because that starts to stay in your brand so I would number one hope that you ruffle some feathers because if you're not then you're not pushing hard enough because I don't think you want to ruffle the ethics feathers you don't want to ruffle the business practices feathers and there's all kinds of feathers you want to leave just let them lie but I would hope I would motivate you to go ruffle feathers that's where the fun comes in look at that he's upset he must not want to pay for what he's getting for free and there are communities of social entrepreneurs who've been trying to blend the worlds of for-profit and non-profit and make things happen that are in the same place so you're not alone doing this but going to a different sector perhaps for lessons learned and communicating and spending some time hanging out a little bit getting to know each other sharing you're not alone we're not alone sorry not to over answer the question but one of the hot things right now in the VC community are double bottom line businesses and they're the businesses that are doing good for the world and are going to do well by their shareholders and one of the financiers who joined us we picked him because of that so all of his portfolio businesses are things that are good for the planet and they'll be wildly successful so I think you are highly aligned already just a question around this hybrid model for Victoria so private for-profit firm is responsible to accountable to its shareholders and non-profits accountable to benefit a defined community so how do you define accountability in the context of a hybrid who do you actually who are you accountable good question that's how you set it up so medicine 360 is a 501c3 organization and we've spun out and fully own a for-profit entity a C-corp correct it's a wholly owned subsidiary when we get to 49% we take investors for partial ownership then we have an issue cross 50% what does that mean so right now it's pretty clean there are more complex models so the answer is our parent is the non-profit organization and we have a for-profit below it as the child but we're partnering with a for-profit commercial entity to market our product in the United States and managing that medicine 360 as a non-profit we'll manage that and partner to the after for details okay great good well this has been a great discussion thank you very much these are sort of not things we normally talk about in the script and perspectives that we don't discuss we don't think about so I really appreciate you all enlightening us about this and I hope you all I certainly learned something I hope you all did too so thank you very much for coming