 Welcome and welcome to the 1.30pm session in the business and enterprise track. As a reminder to our in-world and web audience, you can view the full conference schedule at conference.opensimulator.org and tweet your questions or comments too at opensimcc with the hashtag OSCC 14. This hour we are happy to introduce a terrific panel on the new era of content protection in OpenSim. Our panelists include Myron Curtis who has been involved with the evolution of digital technology for many years. He still has his dad's TS-1000 home computer that he played games on as a child. He has taught computer science at Butte Community College for the past 12 years, has been building virtual worlds since 2006 and now owns Virtual Worlds Grid. John, a Pathfinder Lester, is a leader in expert knowledge management, 3D simulations, multi-user virtual worlds and immersive learning. His background is in neuroscience research and medical education and he previously worked at Harvard Medical School, Massachusetts General Hospital and Linden Lab. John is currently the chief learning officer at Reaction Grid and he is also the community developer and creative advisor at Wiggle Planet, helping create free-range, self-animated artificial life at the intersection of augmented reality in the physical world. Elon Todschner is the co-founder and CEO of Kytley, the biggest commercial provider of OpenSim Regents and the creator of Kytley Market, the leading marketplace serving the hyper-good metaverse. Elon formally held key positions in several startups including CEO at ID Choice and Director of Infrastructure Development at OmniSky. Elon has an MBA from Tel Aviv University and a degree in computer science from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. My name is Maria Korolov. I'm the editor and publisher of Hyper Grid Business and I'm the Hyperica Director of Hyper Grid Destinations and I will be the moderator of today's panel. There have been a lot of changes this year in OpenSim when it comes to content protection. Previously, grids could only filter content that was saved into OR files and then this is a backup of the entire region and this was only for closed grids that controlled all their own regions. For everything else, it was pretty much an all or nothing situation. If you want a Hyper Grid for example or an Open Grid, all content could in theory be exported to most other grids, to people's local hard drives, etc. That is no longer the case. Grid owners now have a wide variety of alternatives for content protection. One option, which is not as far as I know used by anybody, is to use the new export permission that was created by Avination and Singularity and is now supported by most modern viewers. Another option initiated by the Kitely grid and now used by other grids as well is to only allow items that have certain permission to travel to other grids. For example, a grid might allow only full-perm items to leave a grid. Elon Kitely is the biggest grid that uses this kind of filtering. Can you tell us how this works? Yeah, let me begin by discussing our philosophy. We believe that if you want the metaverse to grow, we need to provide people with ways to legally move content from one virtual environment system to another. We believe that copyright laws and content licenses should form a legal framework on top of which the metaverse is built. We believe that virtual environments and marketplaces should contain tools that will help people make sure that the content is used within the defined confines of the license with which the content was acquired. Practically speaking, in open-sync, this means that the permission system works with a type of license for the same tool. It is not without its faults, but it does convey the wishes of the content creators and it does help honest people avoid doing things which they aren't allowed to do with the content they acquired. There is a section in Kitely External Service with details how these permissions should be interpreted when the license isn't explicitly defined using other means. When it comes to content protection on the hypergrids, we believe that the existing permission system that is copyrighted and commodified should be used to convey what's a merchant intended regarding licensing. This is partially due to wishing to support the prevailing attitude towards content protection in open-sync grids and partially due to practical reasons. Adding a new export permission to the mixed forces grid operators to decide what the default should be for the existing content of the hypergrid. This was intensely debated within the community before we developed a permission-based kind of export control system and we didn't want to take sides as both options had valid arguments to support them. We ended up choosing to rely on the following logic. If someone doesn't allow their content to be transferred to copy inside the grid where the content currently resides, then he surely doesn't agree for the content to be moved to a system where this license may not be enforced. This was slow to insuring that content that is safe to an or file will have all the items without both copying transfer permissions filtered out. But while permitting all other content to be included in their open-sync archive. And when it came to content protection for the hypergrid, we applied the same logic. Only items that have both copy and transfer permissions can be added to a person's MySydkits inventory folder while the person is inside his own home grid. Similarly, only worn and attached content with copy and transfer permissions will be allowed to teleport out of its own home grid. If the avatar has something else attached to the teleported temple, we stopped and the avatar will be notified. We assumed that other grids will apply their own content protection logic. For example, using full, only have allowed things with full permission instead of just a copy and transfer logic that we use. So we didn't enforce I and deal with some people acquiring content for the type avatars based avatars when they're traveling to other grids. So you can take things with our copy and transfer while in other grids. And then the other grids copy protection mechanism to enforce it. And that over is only part of how we handle content and protection. We spent the last two years developing Cartly Market to serve as a metaverse marketplace, a marketplace which will deliver content to any accessible location on the hypergrid and to other open virtual work platforms. For example, high fridelity eventually. For us to be able to implement our full plan for this marketplace we need a much more robust content management system that will allow us to do more than just indicate whether an item is exportable for public other grids. I'm not really going to go into that and just reply as I don't have time. But I will say that items sold by a Cartly Market do have an explicit export permission associated with them. And that this export permission is based on the system that is different from the one avination and that singularity to be developed. All this is to say that while the copy transfer approach is used for items originating in the end world, items containing elements that were bought from Cartly Market use a different system to determine the spread of reality. Thank you, Maureen. Ilan, is it correct that the number of items that are exportable on the Cartly Market has been growing over the past few months since you opened this feature? Yes, that is correct. The number of items have been going. The percentages of items sold with export permission is growing. The percentage of items bought that have export permission is growing. It's very clear that a hybrid grid is driving adoption in Cartly Market. So it's not just selling to Cartly Advertisers. It's selling to the entire and I'm open to metaverse. All right. Thank you. Moving on to John Lester, Pathfinder. You were one of the early pioneers of hypergrid travel with the Hypergrid Explorers Club and your BLAM gates are a stable feature all over the hypergrid. Can you talk a little bit about how virtual 3D content is treated on the web with licenses instead of digital rights management and if this is something that the virtual world can emulate as well? Great. Thanks. If you look at the bigger world of how 3D content is created and sold across the internet, it's very different than how it works within Second Life. I think a lot of people who cut their teeth on Second Life as the first exposure to 3D content in general, people might assume that something like a digital rights management, the DRM system of is this object copyable, transferable, modifiable, and so forth, exists everywhere. And the fact of the matter is it does not. If you look at, for example, and I'll just paste the link into local chat, but if you look at sites like TurboSquid, which is arguably one of, if not, the largest clearinghouse for anybody who's a 3D content creator wanting to sell their 3D content for use in video games or advertising or video or whatever, it's all driven by licenses. And the licenses are very clear and they're very visible when you purchase these items. And so when somebody buys something from TurboSquid, there is no, oh, I can't modify this. I can't open it up in Blender. The larger culture at play here in terms of 3D content is this, it all comes down to the license. So I think that type of mentality is one that's important to keep in mind when thinking about how to evolve the systems that we have here in immersive multi-user 3D virtual worlds. I'm not saying that getting rid of all DRM type features is a good idea, but I am saying that it's important to remember that the larger view of all of this, the way the rest of the world and most of the world works is in, it all comes down to the license. You take your 3D model, you can do whatever you can do or not do with it is all codified in law. So that's my perspective on things. Thank you. And Myron, one example of a grid that's not lacking down content is virtual worlds grid. Virtual worlds grid is the largest open sim grid by land area with equivalent of almost 20,000 regions. Myron, can you talk about your grid's philosophy about content protection? Yeah, I'm going to play devil's advocate here and basically ask if really if we should be involved in this at all, we don't have the ownership of any of these products that people are building. We can't guarantee that they themselves are in compliance with somebody else's copyright laws. A lot of our textures are harvested from the internet and those all have copyrights attached to them that we may not be aware of. And as a grid owner, I can go in and I can actually alter a database and change the creator name and the date that it was created on an object to say it's mine. And the only way anybody's going to be able to prove otherwise would be to require a forensic analysis of my hard drive using bit streaming. It's very expensive, very time consuming, and very difficult to do properly. So my philosophy is basically that the copyrights belong to the people who are building these things. If somebody sues me, of course I'm going to remove it, but I've even had things of my own in second life that people try to claim were theirs, especially a picture that I took of my wife and my granddaughter splashing around in a mud puddle and turned into a meme. And I was able to prove that no, it was mine, but this is going to be an issue that's going to cause us a lot of heartache. And if we let ourselves get pulled down this path, we may actually be building a time bomb that's going to destroy our ability to actually grow, because the legal system doesn't really understand what we're building. And if you do get sued, unfortunately, it's not necessarily in your legal department's best interest to win the case for you, because if you win, everybody goes home. But if you lose, then all of a sudden there's compliance negotiations, fees to manage all kinds of billable hours for your legal department. So if you're going to be getting into this, you're going to try to protect other people's content without owning it. You had better have a very strong legal department with a very specific contract to prevent that from happening to you. Let's see, I lost my path here. Okay. Let's see. The other thing is, I really don't have the time. Yeah, I know. I'm sorry. That's all right. You know, the other thing too is, I personally don't have the time and resources to do all this for my residents. And I really don't know very many grid owners who have that kind of money and time and staff. Virtual world's grid is me, myself, and I in my residence. And then there's other things going on that make this even more difficult. You mentioned or files. If you take an or file using 8.01, I think it is, the open sim version, and you load it up in a grid where the creator doesn't exist, it automatically ascribes the creator to whoever loaded it up. So that's broken again. We don't have control over those things. So as an industry, we may have to proactively work with the legal system and legislative systems throughout the world and try to way to ensure that we're not being, you know, taking down a path that's actually going to prevent us from growing. We're creating a whole new world in a lot of ways. And we're really going to have to have the world come along with us and help us make sure we can do it right. Myron, don't the safe harbor laws of the Digital Millennium Chiropractic Act address some of those concerns? They do. As you mentioned to me at one point in time, they're not necessarily free, but they are a form of insurance that we probably do want everybody to look at. But at the same time, they're incomplete. There's, for example, creative commons. A lot of people think that if they take something and change it by 20%, they're in compliance with creative commons and they can sell it whatever they want. And they really don't understand what that is. And they don't understand that creative commons only applies to certain groups and certain types of content and how it's distributed. So there's a lot of misconceptions out there that I don't have the resources or even the knowledge to manage myself. So I am kind of thinking that this is probably a community project, but not necessarily the responsibility of each individual grid owner. In the general industry, such as music industry or the movies, Amazon and iTunes stores, there seems to be a movement away from digital DRM of locking down these things and towards more usability. So if somebody buys something, they can make a local copy of it, make a backup for themselves or share with a friend because if they really wanted to, they could go out and illegally download it anyway by making it inexpensive and convenient and easier to use, a DRM free content is actually more competitive in the market. John, would you like to address that? Yeah, I mean, that's something that Steve Jobs is famous for realizing really early on that as soon as he started down the road of positioning Apple as a company to provide music content to people. He realized very early on that the horses out of the barn at best DRM is friction, it's never a barrier and at best it tries to keep honest people honest, but a lot of times it ends up adding more complexity to people trying to do legitimate things to things that they actually do own and have paid for. The trick is to make it much more compelling and easy for people to buy what they want. That's how to win. It's about creating an opportunity for people to pay content creators for things that have value for them. And I think it's also really about allowing content creators to explore opportunities for more business models than the ancient Stone Age. I have this goat skin. Will you trade me that piece of meat for this goat skin? And then there's a transaction of things back and forth. There are newer models for content creators like having people be part of subscription services and getting different types of maybe early access to certain types of content that other people don't have. I think there are just so many opportunities out there for people to do exactly what Apple did with iTunes becoming a, for the most part, a system for making it really easy for people to get content without it being encumbered by a lot of DRM cruft. A few years ago, when I first started writing about OpenSim, there was a widespread perception that it was a haven for copy-botters. Recently, I've noticed that most of the grids freebie stores are actually offering legal content from Linda Kelly, from OpenSim Creations, and from their own local designers. Is OpenSim starting to take content protection seriously? Is this something that you're seeing in the hypergrid as well? Anyone who wants to take that? I'd like to jump on that first and just say the amount of, and I have to be totally honest, the amount of what's obviously ripped content. And I don't like the term copy-bot because copy-bot is only for people who understand the history of what's happened in Second Life, but it's very common for people to run software to rip 3D models from video games. There are entire multiple large websites dedicated to people ripping the latest models of different characters and different video games and by models, I mean not just characters, but also all the assets, the buildings, everything. And to be honest, I see a lot more of that in Second Life than I do in OpenSim, anywhere across the hypergrid that I explore. If you go to the marketplace, you see tons of content that, yeah, that's the model from BioShock Infinite. Yeah, that's this model from that game. That's the model from Half-Life 2. And, you know, for Lynn in Lynn Labs Defense, you know, they do end up pretty much taking that stuff down pretty quickly, but just as quickly as they take it down, it's like crabgrass. It just pops up again. And overall, I would say across, where I look at things across the hypergrid, you know, occasionally you'll see ripped content, but a lot more often than not, it's people who are building things on their own or people who have had very clear intentions about how their content could expand beyond Second Life. So for example, with some people who create content in Second Life and then say, oh, I'm going to upload it to OpenSim and I'm going to put a Creative Commons license on it. You know, like Arcadia Asylum in Second Life who has tons of content in OpenSim. You know, all of her urban grunge taxi models and buildings are all over Second Life for free in the store, as well as all across OpenSim because she's explicitly made her intentions clear about it being, you know, her stuff is free to distribute all that she wants is to make sure that people don't just sell it and try to make a profit off of the direct assets that she's created. So I think Ian is really onto something about figuring out ways to codify intention of content creators. And that's really what licenses are. Licenses are codified intention, codified in text and in legally binding situations. So I think that's the trick is to figure out what, you know, give the content creators more power to make their intents well-known. I always thought it would be really, I thought I always thought it would have been really good in Second Life to have metadata attached to all content where content creators could put in some way of saying like, this is Creative Commons license so you should be able to take it out of Second Life or use it, you know, in other ways beyond this particular platform. Elon, now Kytley Market is the closest thing we have to like an iTunes for OpenSim. Can you talk about how it enables creators to, you know, express their intentions for how the content will be used? Yes, so in Kytley Market, as I mentioned in my initial reply, we have explicit exportability flag, which is quite different from the Abbey Nation's singularity, try to call it philosophy, that the only thing that our full permission should be exportable, they move in then explicitly. We, and then it's not done by in-world permissions as those may not fully reflect the intentions of the content creator. A person might want to sell something and full permission in his own grid, but not want that thing to be removable to other places, while still wanting to have other items that might be even just transfer without even copy or modify be exportable. So in Kytley Market, we have this explicit export, I'll call it flag, even though it's a lot more complicated than that, which controls what can be done, which each of the bought items. And we track that once it's res inside Kytley, so no matter whether you duplicate the item, assuming you can, res it, transfer to other people, and so forth, we still know where each item originated from, the actual transaction it was bought from Kytley Market. So if there are issues, we can actually, some of this is a component, and some not, but we track all the information to actually lock down the content in a particular category of the content that's right from Kytley Market. Now, getting to your question about, I want to say something about the question about digital right-manage prints and copy-botting and opens them in general, I think a lot of the issues is that, DRM, as the way I consider it, is basically allowing an automated way for people to not have to think about licenses and what license is allowed to do, but still use a license content in as permissive way as that license would have allowed. So as a copy transfer modified permissions, we have an opens that pretty much do that, but of course it can be worked around. There's hacks for anything, but it helps honest people keep within the confines of the license they got the content from, they acquired the content with. Now, getting to copy-botting and so forth, when would you get an item from a sun grid, and this happened several times and people got content into Kytley, and they acquired something that the thought was completely legitimate and they didn't know that someone else had acquired it illegitimately. And the reason they were so confident is because it had the proper permissions and the place looked legitimate and so forth. And the initial problem of having someone else claim the content that he didn't or she didn't create is owned by them, does not get solved by DRM. What DRM helps you solve is that when people are honest, it helps them remain honest. Now, in Kytley Market, we have various strategies to minimize the risk of people selling stolen items on Kytley Market. We have systems that help merchants specify what items can be removed from Kytley. We have out-requirements and to select other permissions so they can define whatever combination of copy, modify, and transfer that they want and still marks the item as either exportable or non-exportable. We have systems that track things inside Kytley to help us basically help enforce the license that is defined by the DRM to the extent to which we can. And we obviously have various DMCA provisions and tools to allow people to easily complain about stolen content if that happens. Surprisingly, that rarely happens. And we started our public beta in March 227, 2011. I think we had three instances to date where someone complained that the content that they saw was not, was not, didn't have the proper creator information, shouldn't be here and so forth. They contacted us without even doing a DMCA. We contacted the person who uploaded the content and they were very surprised as if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong. They quickly took the content outline and the problem was resolved without having to go into complicated even matters. Because I do think that a lot of the OpenSim users are honest people. I see it in growth in Kytley market sales, content that could be found copy-botted if people are looking for it in OpenSim is bought on a daily basis in Open Kytley market. So if you give people the tools to acquire content legally and make them convenient enough then people will do so. So I really think that this question about the perceptions about the type of people who use OpenSim being dishonest are really misguided. They were just people who didn't have options to and they didn't have ways that they had I would call it being considered lack but they had fewer options than they were required in order to get all the content that they wanted. So they got it from wherever they could and then it was hard to determine whether the content was legitimate or not. Now that there are more options to get the content that the computer means should be sure that is like EGLE I think the percentage of people who are acquiring content for OpenSim based grids is growing. Well I have some questions that have come in from the audience. The three of you represent three very different sizes and kinds of grids. Are any of you interested in more robust solutions for content protection such as for example PKI infrastructure it's a private key encryption no private key infrastructure to secure content from an authorized use so kind of like heavy duty encrypted signatures on content so that as content moves from grid to grid the permissions are kind of baked into it on a hard level. Is that something that you guys would be interested in or do you have other opinions about that? I can go ahead and answer that. This is Myron. We don't really have a choice. We're going to have to go that route if we're going to have a sustainable business model where people can actually sell real world goods through virtual worlds as well as the virtual content we're building. That's going to be the next stage. We're building a whole new internet and that's a part of just about everything you download from the internet now and it's going to become a more important portion of it. John? Elon? Um I would say the opposite. I would say that putting effort and time into figuring out how to add more robust DRM is a continually losing game. Just ask the Motion Picture Association of America or the Recording Industry Association of America. It's just impossible to do that. Things will be cracked. It would be much more, in my mind, in my opinion, be much more forward thinking to put that effort and money and resources into creating things like you know like Cartley-Mike Cartley Marketplace where you have this ability to give content creators more options on how they can distribute their content and make their intentions well known and if you want to put some teeth to things to prevent people from really you know going wild with taking your content and stealing it then do work with licensing and real world existing laws around copyright that are really I think the only way you'll you'll really have any kind of teeth to you know preventing serious stealers of content from stealing things and benefiting from them. Yeah, I'd like to add my comment here as well. I think that trying to prevent a content set is really a losing battle. There's an analog hole that's built into the back that we live in a world where content can be perceived using other digital media to acquire it. There's no way around that. You can't like up people's eyes and people have cameras everywhere so it's things can be captured or copied by it with more or less ease. There's a thing that I think can be made more convenient is allowing people who want to remain honest give them the tools that will help them remain honest as in looking at DRM not as a way to try to enforce the license in the assumption that it's unbreakable because it won't be but as a way that will help people who are honest remain within the confines of the license that they acquired without having to constantly go and say okay this piece of what I want can I do that with this piece and that piece and that becomes too much of a hassle. So if the system can automate that then it makes using content from various sources together in combination much more realistic and I think that is how the internet work when things then you mash up various websites to create better and more services that couldn't exist otherwise and that's the same thing that happens inside a virtual world with free content or so and so forth. So I would like to see cross-platform way to codify licenses something probably more a bit with a bit more flexibility than the existing system we've had in open sim but that takes from the ideas that exist in the copy modified transfer system and add to them various things such as resale value and so forth and something that allows you to basically automate that could help I think a lot of content creators get content into hands of consumers who otherwise have problems reaching and this is really part of what we're aiming as I mentioned the export flag is not so much the flag is the feature of the content control system that we're building to the market so it's really part of our long-term vision of doing that obviously we're just at the beginning of this process but that truly is what we're aiming for Elon can you talk a little bit about your plans beyond open sim? One of our audience members is asking about your plans for high fidelity second life and other virtual platforms and they also want to know if you're if you've considered supporting things like direct calada or textures sales or downloads that are not just open sim specific but like more like TurboSquid TurboSquid exists and there are various other marketplaces like it the way we see things moving forward and again I'm not you know if there's a business opportunity and it's big enough we might pursue it I'm not going to get anything out but the way we see our vision is that currently TurboSquid is very convenient for content creators so you go you find the license you research it you combine it with other things you can open it in blender and 3D max and so forth at all rates content creators are our consumers at best professionals more likely they're they're not consumers as a consumer you want to be able to go and when I click a shirt have my avatar where it's wherever my avatar is on whatever system it is whether it's open sim high fidelity or any other system that we can integrate with and so it's in some systems that might look like an inventory it's a world of based inventories that we know from open sim second life another system that might look that's completely different user interface and items might be grouped completely differently not in so much as an inventory folder structure as in the kind of groups that you have your shirts and you have your pants and you have your so forth and there's no not a lot of flexibility in organizing the items otherwise and as a consumer you just want to be able to go to a marketplace buy whatever you want and have it delivered and not have to think about basically how the sausage is made and when with TurboSquid and other places where you download the content you have to be kind of the well you have to be the butcher because you're going to be combined and cut into the content up and you have to make sure that you're remaining within the kind finds of the licensing that you acquire the content with and you have to then go and integrate it into various systems it might be as simple it's just uploading into Unity developer but it's but that that simple thing is it's very hard for it's a great majority of people for them to for an metaverse to exist it has to be a simple simple simple process where external tools are not an issue you don't have to think about file formats they don't have to think about at the prim count sorry triangle count and what material effects I'm using signal and terminology there exists are used and they just want to know that can I buy it for high fidelity checkbox checkmark yes okay buy deliver that's it that's what I want and that's how we're focusing targeting Kitey market to be this very simple to use integrated marketplace for the metaverse cross platform not specific to Opensim and answering an uploading content into Kitey currently is done by Opensim but there is looking it forward you know we there's there's eventually there'll be a browser based viewers they're already services online where you can upload a lot of files and have them rendered in your viewers there's no reason why we won't have this type of functionality in the future so it's it's really about giving the content creators the tools that they need the most convenience for them to get the content into the marketplace and providing a market-based experience it's the most convenient for the consumer so they can buy the content and just working whatever virtual environments are using Ilan Opensim creations recently went down because of technology some technology issues and I've used Opensim creations to distribute with content that I've created that I wanted to give away for free is there any chance of Kitey stepping in and offering freebies on their marketplace so that if say I create a hyper gate I can put it up on Kitey for anyone to use and download okay I'll begin my answer with we may always things may always change in the future but the way and we currently see it is that Kitey there's two aspects to this actually content there's various types of content there's content that anyone can create you know Instagram has shown that there's a lot of millions of people can take great photos especially if they have good tools so it's very hard to make money with photos now and you can get great photos for freeing the public domain so there's a creep if you're trying to build a marketplace that sells photos you're going to have a harder and harder time doing that and there are other types of content like for example currently 3D content especially scripted costs a lot of money to develop it takes a lot of time and it's a rare ability to create something of value there and those people should have a way to monetize and not have to compete for free the problem with having freebies in the marketplace in any marketplace so the drives costs it drives prices down because one eventually you'll get to the point where the free content is good enough for most people and there that this incentivizes the creation of additional good content by professionals and that's that's a bad road to to to walk down I'm just looking to get spotted by and Tyler Swift decision to take our albums off it you can see that content creators especially the ones that have no problem selling the more is the ones that people want to get their content do not like competing with three or almost three now there are various ways that you could get content monetized that allows for freebies to exist in the marketplace if you've talked about subscription services where person faces certain amount of dollars per month and gets certain types of content included in that subscription where they can use or as much as they want they're type you to add based on a content where basically you do the same thing but just the revenue you buy is the ones generated from ads there are various ways this could be done but I don't think that the metaverse at the current stage at the current level of adoption has any alternative monetization option others and outright selling the content licenses to to use the content and doing that in a way that is convenient enough for for end users to use now looking at county market specifically in freebies if we allowed let's say freebies for free then we drive prices down we reduce the likelihood of professional merchants listing we hurt our own our own basically revenue stream which helps us continue to develop county market and it doesn't really help so much users because freebie content can be found in many places one of the things we provide is a service of added value of the services county market provides is beyond the actual content that is delivered it's part of the experience and the tool that we provide and that costs money to develop it costs money to run and therefore we we can't basically make that free without hurting both content creators and ourselves not a tip all right we don't we have a couple of minutes left before we close up John do you have any closing remarks you'd like to make oh if I try to think about how to sum it up like in a sentence it's about codifying creator intent and conveying that intent I think that's what it's all about and I think that's a lot of what Elon is doing with Kytley is is about that you know being able to codify what content creators want to do with their stuff and convey that intention to the people who are buying content I think that's that's the real use of of DRM technology in this case in my opinion Myron well you know pretty much to agree with their everything that's been said so far you know nobody's wrong here we're all right it's just different viewpoints of the same elephant we're like three blind men reach you know describing our own side of the elephant I may have the rear end I don't know but you know I do want to urge people to be con conscientious at the same time I want them to be cautious about accepting responsibilities that they have no right or need to accept well thank you everybody for a terrific presentation and if you're looking to hear more from Ilan Tachner he has the next session in this track Kitely Market The Metaverse Marketplace one year later at 2 30 p.m as a reminder to our audience you can see what's coming up on the conference schedule at conference dot open simulator dot org thank you again to all our speakers into our audience we'll be back shortly with the next session thank you Maria thank you Maria thanks a lot