 think most of you have seen the YouTube footage of an Indian gentleman challenging a guru to kill him. You've seen this footage, yes? Where all kinds of crazy or throwing hair, tussling, muscling kind of, it's some of the most awesome footage you will ever see as a rational thinker. And that guy is here. Our next speaker. Yes. There is Sinal Idemaruku. He's talking to Indian gurus from Flying Fakirs and Starving Saints. He's the founder of Rationalist International. He's the president of the Indian Rational Association. Randy yesterday said to him, you're my hero. Which is very exciting. Yes. Yes. Alright, a quick haiku. Here's your haiku. Godman tries to kill. Sinal just stands there smiling. You are a rock star. Sinal Idemaruku. Ladies and gentlemen, flying has been a part of our dreams and mythology from times immemorial. In every culture, one would see some kind of flying. The Christian mythology has flying angels. And of course, the flying bitches on broom is a very popular mythology. But in Greece, there was a character, namely Ikaris, who did not have wings, but still tried to fly with artificial wings made out of feather and wax. And he tried to fly to the sun. Flying to sun is dangerous. And it got melted, and he has fallen down. In Indian mythology, the gods and the anti-gods both had flying instruments. The anti-hero Ravana, when stealing the wife of the god Ram, has been flying on a Vimana, an ancient airplane, but of course was flying with two birds. And when the gods own brother died in the war, his big supporter, the monkey god Hanuman, he flies all the way to Himalayas to collect a special herb to revive this guy. But he forgets the name of this herb. So he thought of a minute and took the whole mountain and flew back to save this guy. And of course, he was saved. But with this kind of myth, very popular in the collective memory of the Indian Psyche, the contemporary gurus are so much interested to project themselves that they can fly and levitate. And here is a guru sitting on air and blessing his disciples. Of course, we later found that he was using a small hydraulic instrument to get levitated. But professionally, the myth of flying, myth of levitating has been sold so well by a person named Maharshi Mahesh Yogi in 1960s, with his branded special program, which is called Transcendental Meditation. And he sold flying. And this was a picture from his brochure. The students were flying. And he had flying schools in Switzerland, in Amsterdam and different parts of Europe. And these are the students at the Switzerland flying school. But later we found, of course, how he was doing it. They were all sitting on spring mattresses and make hops up and down, sitting. And the camera is put down. And when they go up, it's immediately photographed. Next moment they fall with nose down and that part is not required. Nowadays, these kind of exercises are not necessary with Photoshop. One can simply make it very fast. Maharshi Mahesh Yogi became very popular and sold India as a land of fakirs all over Europe. And he got very powerful disciples, for example, like the Beatles. But how would we challenge these kinds of claims? What Mahesh Yogi would be doing was very simple. He would sell a small mantra for a small price, $2,500 USD in 1960. Two or three words. And you have to chant these words repeatedly a million times sitting in a dark small room. And, of course, there was a later complaint that the eatery that he has been giving before, people going in, which is known as Prasada in Indian religious language, had a little bit of hashish in that. But without hashish also it's quite possible that if you repeat a word continuously a million times in a dark room, the oxygen supply is too less and your brain would immediately start hallucinations exactly as you want. And we have replicated the feeling by using the word instead of omkrim, the mantra, by using the word garbage, garbage, garbage, garbage. It also worked. But still gurus show how people are flying. So we try to normally explaining people would not be sufficient in India. We have to show them how people are doing it. So here you see some students flying, levitating. And standing behind them is not a shaman but me. And that's the National Science Centre of New Delhi. Every year we have a workshop where I train 300 students, all the tricks of some 200 of them, and with one condition that they should go back to their schools and train 10 more people how to do it. So it's a multiplication of 3,000 students getting ready every year. This was despite our numerous workshops going on in different parts of India. We have an organization which had 480 members in 1983, which has 100,000 members now, with 200 branches. The flying fakis are one sort, but here is a yogi who is relaxing on a nail bed, a thousand nails, and he's relaxing. And these kind of things are very, very popular and certainly amuse people. But how do you counter it? Here's a nationalist volunteer doing the same thing but with sharper nails and a more distanced, I mean, pinning of the nail. The weight is distributed and if there are so many nails, you don't get much. But you cannot just explain it, you have to show it. But there are different kinds of sadhus and yogis and gurus in India. Here is a set of naga sadhus. There are something like 20,000 naga sadhus, they would not wear any clothes as part of their belief system and they live in a commune and they are considered to be having a lot of powers. People pay a lot of money to them to get blessing, but not merely blessing. Most of the time they are paid to eliminate or destroy the enemies of competitors. And people think that meditation would give them strength. So different kind of hostages and different kind of heart meditations are very, very popular. Many claim most of them are doing all these things for global peace. And there was a guru whose name was Pilach Baba. Some years back, he announced that he would sit underwater for five days for global peace. And he made a small pond in a park, 10 feet, 10 feet, 10 feet, three dimensions and he went down and it was covered with a tarpaulin sheet and a pipe was pudding and water was pumped in. Two days later I have gone there and I found that the guru still didn't say but it's covered. I requested, would you please remove this tarpaulin for me to see whether he is sitting actually in water or just sitting there and reading newspapers. So they said, no, we cannot remove the tarpaulin because that will affect the whole global peace. It was not possible. But five days later when he opened this thing, of course, I have gone to the press and challenged him to do the same feat not for five days but just for 50 minutes in a glass chamber which he would provide at the Press Club of India. There was no answer. But on the day when he came out, mean day, I found the secret. I found the workers who made this pond and found that there was a small hole down which was straightly connected to the city drain and the pipe would be connected there and the water was simply going down only. And when he came to the stage, he shouted that there was a rationalist speaking against me but he would not know that people can remain nine months in the womb without oxygen and in water. Similarly, I was sitting there and this moment I was not busy with his speech but looking at the water and it was just draining down and I called all the journalists and saw them. Of course, the guru saw this thing. He shouted, there is a rationalist, just kill him and there was a crowd of 5000 people. I just sneaked into the crowd and vanished cool and got into my car and went to the press club and invaded the whole press to reach this place to see how it is happening. Of course, the guru vanished before I reached. And five years later in another city he performed this thing buried under earth. This time, I went with the television crew and found that he was just sitting in a small room, built and there was a cover, a corrugated cover over that thing and some mud was put on that thing and we removed it. The guru was just lying, relaxed there but seeing the camera and all suddenly he stood up and posed for the cameras. And well, his business is over in India but he is very popular in Japan now and doing the same feat for the Japanese people. But there are, these are a certain level of gurus but there are still serious gurus, Satya Sai Baba. He has written in a book, I am the God and I created this universe and who would take it serious? Prime Minister of India, P.V. Naira Simherao with him. The President of India, Sankashankardya Sharma with him. Another Prime Minister of India, Adal Bihari, watch play on the right side is Chandrababu Naidu, the Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh. We had a scientist president, Abdul Kalam with Satya Sai Baba. That was the most shocking thing. Kalam was the Professor of Aerospace Engineering, first Chancellor of Space Science and Technology, 11th President of India and the highest recipient of the highest award for an Indian civilian who could get, namely, Bharat Rakhna, the Gem of India. Of course, it's not very surprising. When we launch a satellite, the time is not decided by scientists but by astrologers. And coconuts have broken for obstacles being removed. The replicas are taken to a temple for getting blessed. When the Satya Sai Baba died, it was a holiday nationally. And sitting with a blue turban is the present Prime Minister of India, Manmohan Singh. And left to him is Sonia Gandhi, the President of International Congress, the ruling party and of course the Roman Catholic by birth from Italy, married to one of our former Prime Ministers. So that's the kind of power these people have. But we have a constitution which clearly says that there is a fundamental right for every citizen to have freedom of speech and freedom of expression. And we have fundamental duties in our constitution which clearly ask people to have spirit of inquiry, scientific temperament and spirit of reform as their duty. So when Satya Sai Baba was performing his miracles in front of a group of journalists at one place, I could appear in one channel and replicate all his miracles and simply call him a trickster and a faker. It was all possible in India. Here is another guru who is getting a lot of support from the Western world, the hugging saint Amma. She travels all around the world now and hug a lot of people. Nearly eight million people she has hugged already. But she started something like India as a very repressed society. Even in a bus if you travel, the boys and girls don't sit together. If a girl sits somewhere and if a guy sits on that seat, she would immediately stand up. That's kind of a segregationist there in many rural part of India. And in such a stage, Amma, Amma means mother, but when she was 15 years old, she had a special problem. She wanted to hug every boy who is going around. And well, some people liked it. Some people were so afraid and they ran away. She chased them, caught them and if they escaped, she would fall down and scream and cry and make a lot of trouble. Or climb on the tree and threaten that she would jump down till the guy is brought in and she's allowed to hug. It started like that. But later she became a godwoman and now many people consider her as a real god and she keeps on hugging people. Prime Ministers and Presidents of several countries got hugged already. And she has a television channel. She has a university. She has medical colleges and quite powerful. And most of the disciples are, of course, western of western origin. Here's another guru, Sri Sri Devi Shankar. All these people are very professional. He has a special technique of breathing, which is patented and licensed. And if you have to breathe on that particular way, you have to get a license from him. And you have a training program every Sunday in almost every city. They're the primary training program. Then you can start breathing in that special technique. Sudarsana Kriya is the form of that breathing. And of course he says that life is for joyful celebration. Good idea. But he says that when there is misery around, when there is an accident and people are dead, all you have to do is don't look at that side. Just dance around and be merry. People sometimes chase him off. But he sells his breathing so well and a huge empire mean day. But there is another guru, namely Baba Ramdev, who appear on 24 television channels every day morning. And he has his own television channel. He claims that he has special techniques, mystical techniques, how people could come out of ailments. For example, if you hold like this so hard, most of your ailments go. And if you go in the metro in New Delhi in the morning, middle-aged women and men, they would be rubbing their fingers like this. Because he tells in the television program that you keep on rubbing like this, you would not get old. So people believe it or breathe in a special way with a lot of sounds and all. And of course, 10 years back he was bicycling in the holy city of Paridwar selling Ayurvedic products. Now he owns a 2 million pound worth Scottish island and tries people to, I mean, he'd educate people to meditate in his special way. But still more interesting people are there. Prakhlad Jani, this gentleman, now 72 years old and two years back, he claims that he was not eating any food or drinking a drop of water, something like 60 years onwards, means something like the outbreak of the second world war, he stopped eating and drinking water. And he would still survive. And one would just laugh at it. But it was taken damn serious in India. One physician, a doctor came out telling that, I mean, this has to be studied immediately and informed to NASA very fast. And they claimed that NASA is supporting us. Of course, we wrote to NASA and said that we don't have any idea about this guy. And of course, government of India took it damn serious. You know, the idea was if we don't have to eat or drink water, when astronauts are sent in this, in the space, they need not take water or food. It's a lot of fuel saving. And India considered it in a very different angle. We have a lot of soldiers on the Pakistan border, the high terrains and food supply is such a difficult task. If those soldiers are trained with this meditation, no food supply is required. And of course, there was a special investigation about his powers. And he was kept in a room with a CCTV camera. And it was claimed that 50 doctors are studying about his meditation powers. I challenged on a television program to include me in the investigation tree. I would not interfere with anything, but I would like to objectively watch what was happening. Well, my challenge reached the right place at the right time. While the program was on, we got a telephone call from the Sterling Hospital that I would be allowed the next day to join the team. The next day, along with the television crew, we were starting today, I mean, from Delhi to Ahmedabad, came a call. Well, the higher authorities would not allow you to join. But who are the higher authorities? The Defense Department's Research Institute's chief, Govindan Ilangovan, who, believe it or not, donated from the Defense Fund nearly a million U.S. dollars for money for this research. And this was received by the gentleman on the left, Sudhir V. Shah. The amounts are not official, but we have unofficial sources about this money. No result is ever out. But we know that from the hospital reports which we got smuggled out, urine was forming in his bladder. And later, the urine disappeared from the bladder. So we came up with these facts to the media. There was immediate explanation. Well, the urine comes into his bladder because it's coming from a special nectar, which the gods have placed in his mouth. And of course, it's disappearing because it's recycled into the body. And anybody who would understand the primary, the basics of human anatomy would laugh, but these were spoken by respected doctors in India. But still dangerous gurus are there in India. Here is a guru who is trampling on children. And people believe that if children are brought to him and he stands on them and chants some mantras, they're immunized for their life. And this is not in a remote village. This is in a place, namely Kothiar in Bihar, where within two kilometers, there was a medical college where vaccination is available free of cost. And I have tried to stop this and the crowd almost did not allow me. I went to a television channel and got the pictures run on the television and there was a live program wherein this was discussed. And we telephone on live program, we telephone to the parliament member of this area and ask him to interfere. And it was it's on YouTube. He says that it's a matter of faith. I cannot touch it. Then we telephone the health minister of Bihar state online undercard. He says, Well, it's a matter of belief and faith remaining for so many years. So this was a question of health abuse. So he did not interfere. Then of course, after four hours, we could mobilize the child welfare ministry and got him arrested and stopped it. Reaching out people in the villages is a big task. In 1995, we decided that we should not remain in lecture rooms and conferences. We should go to the streets to the people. So we planned a road show in 1995. So I got 18 people to join me all well trained youngsters. So we got a one and we targeted 1000 villages in India in 100 districts. So something like 19 months we traveled village to village and little places of 200, 300 people we have been talking to. And of course, it spread like a wildfire that has made the rationalist association in the maps of India. Of course, initially, this was nowhere, nowhere reported. But after some 1020 days, we started seeing the newspapers looking at that seriously and we were reported. And after one month, we got a call from channel four in Britain telling that we would like to join you for some days and make a documentary about this. We have agreed. We said limited facilities, many places will be staying in tents and all difficulties will be there. If you're interested, well, you can join. They came all the way and traveled with us for nearly 17 or 18 days. And they made a documentary namely Guru bus states that went in three episodes in channel four and went in so many countries from 27 countries. And everywhere what we are doing was very simple. Like this is a temple. People are walking on fire embers showing that it's a miracle. So we would replicate in the same evening, make a bigger fire and the rationalist volunteers will walk over it. Very simple like that. But eventually we developed a new technique in the campaign, which is known as the rationalist reality theater. What we do is one of our members would dress up like a guru. And he would go to village and claim that he's a guru and starts showing all the tricks of the holy man, like lying on a nail bed or producing holy ash, all this kind of things. And then he would ask people to give him some money. So he slight of hand, he would return it back. 10 rupee note would be returned back as a 100 rupee note. It will be shown many times. Later he would say that I want to make a temple here and anybody who would donate would get their money 10 folds back. You know what will happen? All these women and folk run back to their home to bring all the golden money to give to this guy. And when they bring all the money and when it is all placed in front of him, one little boy or girl will stand up and say that he's a fraudster. Whatever he has done, I could replicate. There's a total silence at that moment. There's a complete pandemonium in the face of people. And then an argument goes on with the little boy or girl. Normally we select a 14 or 15 year old boy or girl to make this argument. And people are so afraid that the guru could curse and kill the person. But that moment he would take off his wig and say that I'm a rationalist. But what happens at that moment is not anger outbursts it. But people burst into laughter. That's a moment without thinking. People just come out of fear. And later I read articles that you know about cognitive dissonance. When people are in certain faith and when reason is placed in front of them, the more unreasonable they are, the more determined are they to reject it and block their mind. Because there is fear. So this kind of a technique is breaking cognitive dissonance and liberating a lot of people to think freely and that rolls out immediately. So this was a very successful campaign. We have done it in thousands of places. Sometimes even nowadays I don't personally participate because we have a lot of volunteers who are doing it. But sometimes some television channels would ask that they would like me personally participating. Of course I still like that novel idea which I developed. And this is one program where I personally participate and distributing holy ash which Satya Sai Baba would produce to children. But this was a part of our program. It has dramatically changed the last four years. Earlier we have been traveling from village to village and conference hall to conference hall. But now we started moving from television studios to television studios. On an average, I participated some 250 television programs last year for the last four years. Every evening there would be some kind of holy man or guru or astrologer or some tantric in the program and I would be countering him and arguing with him and which made it quite interesting. But sometimes it was not that easy. That was the story which was mentioned earlier. A guru claimed that he could kill anybody with magic. And he said some cabinet ministers are his disciples and he would do black magic for them. I asked him, did you kill anybody? I wanted to track him. He said, I did not. But halfway, I reversed them back. That I can kill. I make a small dow, wheat, dow statue or doll and strangulate it and the person will suffocate and die. I know it and it's possible. And I was completely stunned. You know, what kind of explanation would convince the people? Around four or five million people are watching this live program. A moment I had a sudden thought, look, if this is correct and you can kill people, I put me on the stake. You have to kill me this moment. Do all your mantra and kill me right this moment. And if you don't do it, I would declare that you are a fraudster, you are a faker. Accept it or kill me this moment. I mean, it simply came in my mind. And I mean, I provoke him. Sometimes I'm very good at provoking people. And he chanted mantras and he started throwing water and started mantra on me. And he asked for 10 minutes to get me unconscious. And then before dying, he would take me back. So he tried 10 minutes. Nothing works. He asked for another 10 minutes. No, it doesn't work. It went on for one hour. And then he started shaking my head and you know shaking me completely. And it's on the YouTube. You know, it's a long program, but reduced to four minutes of, I mean three units and it's on YouTube. Millions of people have seen it. And at the end he says that I am sure he's protected by some other goats. I said, I'm an atheist. It doesn't work with me. So then he asked for an ultimate ritual. He said, then you come to the evening ritual Friday, 11 o'clock if you can come to the burial ground. I have to take wood from the burial ground and that's an ultimate ritual. And if you can stand there, nine minutes I would require to kill you. First three minutes you will go crazy. Next three minutes you go unconscious and next three minutes you die. But it's not reversible. The ultimate mantra. I said welcome, no problem. The channel, the channel decided to sell it so well. They have made advertisements every 10 minutes. Will they rationally survive this night? So it kept on going on. And at 11 o'clock this time I was a little prepared because I was not afraid of mantras but toxic methods to knock me down. But chloroform or phosphorus-based poisons. I allowed, did not allow him to come closer to me but the ultimate ritual started at 11 o'clock in the night. There was a countdown going on. He made a small beat down and asked me to touch, asked me to give a little hair. I gave everything. Then he first burned it, boiled it, spit on it, hit on it, then stab it, put nails on it, everything he tried. Then put a lot of mustard into fire, shouted a lot of things. He was not alone. This time there were some 20 tantric, all chanting mantras so loudly. It was a hysteric atmosphere. One would just faint, either out of boredom or out of fear. So it went on and went on and went on and nothing happened. At the end of it I was just laughing and then some people asked him, why did it not work? He said he will die this night. Okay, I said fine but next time morning again journalists asked him. He said he would die in the next three days. So then he extended it to 27 days and of course now it's four years past. Someday anyway I would die and this television, the ultimate ritual, got the highest ever viewership in Indian television history. 58% of the whole national viewership was on this program and liberated a lot of people out of fear I'm sure but things were not easy like that always. This was last year in Mumbai. There was a crucifix which was weeping and some water were coming through the feet. The church announced that it's a miracle. They collected this water and started distributing to people and of course I was invited to investigate this case and I've gone there. There was a prayer going on and people were given this water and they were licking it in their hands and I verified first of all I found that there was a wet wall behind and still another wall which was wet. Then I located a toilet behind that and there was a water tank at the top. Then I went through the pipeline and I found that at this point it was blocked and this I covered was opened and it was dirty stinking water clogged there for several days and it was climbing through the cement wall and the cement base of this cross through capillary action and it was coming through the nail at the feet and dripping down. So I went back and touched above the feet it was not wet and below the feet it was wet and I collected samples from there and sent it for chemical analysis found that the equally bacteria content in that water was a million times more than human tolerance and of course the priest is explained and he's sitting there with the folded head and the evening I explained this in a television program and of course the church wanted to defend their miracle and they sent five people to defend it. So me alone on one side and five people on the other side. The argument went down and I simply flattened them I'm sure and halfway the Mumbai bishop wanted to join the program to come to me. So he came and there was still an argument and of course the bishop was not very happy with the kind of arguments I made. I spoke about exorcism and medieval torture of free tinkers and everything. Then came after that some statements on the forums of the Catholic Church. They filed 17 cases against me the next day using an old law which allows anybody to be arrested without an arrest warrant and non-ailable cognizable which this law is never used in India properly but used first time against me and then in the forum they have been discussing one statement Idamarugu is a devil. He should be purified with pain. We should get Idamarugu to a Mumbai jail at least for one night. If a co-presor silence him forever I'm willing to pay a million rupees to his family. The myth that we are too tolerant should end. We shall not tolerate Idamarugu damaging the foundations of faith. So I had to go underground not afraid of police but because of the mafia the bishop has paid me to abduct me and the police has filed cases and I went in underground for nearly one and a half months and things were coming closer and I came out from India now I live in Finland and running our organization sitting in Finland. So this case has got international attention. It was in BBC CNN everywhere in the world but I didn't stop. I was still traveling abroad and this was in Ireland where there was a moving merry miracle which I explained studying there because the merry was moving left and right all the time. I went there and put a tripod and a laser point on the nose and found that she was not moving but the bush was moving left and right with the winch. The Irish television reported so well of course there was no case in Ireland but meantime there is a negotiation coming up from the Catholic Church. So they asked me because of the international pressure now they say that they are willing to withdraw the case but one condition I should apologize to the Catholic Church. So my statement my reply was very simple there it ends I said I can understand that you might be inspired by the stories of incursion and witch hunting in the Middle Ages. We live in 21st century there are courageous people who would defend the right to speak what they are convinced about even if stakes are invoked against them. I'm one amongst them even if you bring all the torture machines from the medieval times I would not apologize nor succumb to any pressures. So now sitting in Finland we keep on the rationalist organization running intact it's not affected. I wanted to be sure that in my absence things should go on properly. Now I am so sure that even in my absence things would go perfectly. I preside over the board meeting over the internet I give meetings and I address meetings and I address press conference over the internet. The rationalist center in Delhi which I established is going on so well. So the work maybe I may and I do not know my personal future but the future of the rationalist movement I'm so sure it's indefectible. Thank you very much. So now talk about fighting the fakers right? Talk about fighting the fakers.