 You're welcome back to the breakfast on PLOS TV Africa. There's a new report which ranked Nigeria as the third worst govern country in the world. The country ranked 102 out of 104 countries in the Chandler Government Index, only ahead of Zimbabwe and Venezuela. The index ranks countries using indices like leadership and foresight, laws and policies, strong institutions, global influence and reputation, financial stewardship, attractive marketplace and helping people rise to public analysts. Joining us this morning Ossia Anani Isnabuja and Nick Aguile is joining us from the UK. Good morning gentlemen, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having us. Good morning. All right. I want to begin. Thank you very much. On the basics, 104 countries were ranked for effectiveness and capability. Nigeria scored 102. We know that in the next few hours, the next few days of the government authorities would begin to release press statements questioning these figures and basically debunking them saying it's not true. It doesn't represent realities on ground like we've seen in time past. Do we have evidence that questions this index? Let's have Ossia Anani speak on that. Yes. Thank you guys. So the thing with these types of measures are that they are largely independent. They are largely done by world-renowned think tanks. They are largely populated by data from credible institutions. And most importantly, they are not targeted at Nigeria. So it's not an index that was, that set out to make Nigeria look bad. So you have your transparency international index, you have your global insecurity index, et cetera. And, you know, if the Nigerian government were to take this, okay, since we're having issues connecting with Ossia Anani, Nika, go ahead, can you hear us? We may have lost both of them now. Okay. This is why we're ranked so poorly. All right. At least it comes on that list, but... We're going to reconnect with our guest this morning, you know, and keep the conversation going. Why did we score so poorly? And I like one thing that Ossia Anani said. This wasn't targeting Nigeria. You know, it basically is ranking countries across the world. So it is not a report that is sponsored by the opposition or sponsored by anybody. To make Nigeria look bad, it basically has rated, yeah, you know, countries across the world. And this is how we fared. There's also, you know... Are you sure it wasn't sponsored, though? No, it wasn't sponsored. Are you sure it wasn't, you know, a plot of the opposition party? No, it wasn't sponsored. You know, to target... There's, you know, part of, you know, the report, you know, I read through it yesterday that mentions and things, you know, with regards to corruption and the like. Ossia Anani, welcome back. All right. Can you hear us? I can hear you. Fantastic. Please continue. Okay. So, yes, it's not... It's fortunately or fortunately, it's not a PDP plot. We're not a member of this trans black government. But interestingly enough, there is an Nigerian on the board. I think Mr. Okirele, he's from the World Bank, and this in there does give insights into the problems we are facing as a country. We know we have education problems, for instance, which is one of the helping people rise issues. We know we have corruption. We know we have insecurity issues. I think recently we came up as the country with the largest unelectrified population in the world. We're one of the most insecure. When you talk about trade and government ability to manage the economy, we have one of the largest debt overhangs we've ever had in this country right now. We struggled after. How do you encourage trade? For instance, we do things like border closure. So I think it should be a pointer to the government. The things were spelt out very clearly, and they tell us where we're failing. Any serious government would look at this as a roadmap to progress and for prosperity instead of an opposition party manifesto. All right. Let's get your perspective, Mr. Nicajile. What do you think regarding the authenticity of this index? Thank you very much. Before I say anything, I would like to say that as Nigerians, we should not be discouraged by the statements that are issued by the government because all over the world, people who are employed to learn that the image of the government, they do their job by issuing press statements defending government policies is their daily bread. So that is going to happen. What we need to do as Nigerians is when a report such as this is being released and the government counters it, we need to look at empirical evidence. We are Nigerians. We live in Nigeria. Are we safe? Can we feed? Do we have infrastructure to go about? Our schools were maintained and strong. If we feel sick, do we have public health institutions we can approach? If the answers to these things are negative, then we should just know that this report is not meant to run us down as a people or as a nation, but it's just saying the obvious. And if government issues a statement to debunk it and say it's not true that this is some sort of international conspiracy against us, we should be able to reject that. Because it's not as if we are not living with these realities. We are indeed living and experiencing these issues. And let me just expand a bit to say that if you look at this ranking, there is one of the criteria that says robust laws and policies. If you see the countries that are ranked top, the Finlands, you will see the percentage of that is very high. And that is Nigeria's singular problem. Nigeria is a country that is set for stardom. Sets for stardom. Seems you've lost Nick again. I'm not sure what's going on. Osir, Nene, are you there? Can you hear us? I guess we've lost both, you know, but I'm going to bring in Osir Nene when we come back. You know, of course, the next question goes to him, you know, it's still with regards to the report and the indices that were used to create the report. You know, something that it says there, but massive and widespread corruption that it says, you know, is evident in every sphere of government in Nigeria, including the judiciary and security agencies and all of that. So I would like that we look closer at that, because the Nigerian government has always, and a minister of information has always spoken about how well we've done with our fight against corruption. And of course, you know, the number of times and the amount of money that we've been able to recover from politicians and people who have stolen Nigeria's money. I remember the EFCC chairman also had made mention of billions and billions of Nair. Osir Nene would come back to you, Nick, I've got apologies for that. I'm not sure what's going on with the network this morning. But let's go back to Osir Nene. One of the things, if you read from the report, it states there massive widespread and pervasive corruption affected all levels of government, including the judiciary and security services. Then I want to read a response to Transparency International's report in January from the Minister of Information, Laim Mohamed. It says here that the Minister of Information has showed that the country's anti-corruption agenda, which has placed great emphasis on corruption prevention measures and building of integrity systems, remains on course. They said the implementation of the various reforms, especially in the ease of doing business, is expected to yield positive outcomes in the country's perception index and other relevant assessments in the next 12 to 24 months. So Osir, do you think that these institutions and these establishments are being unfair to Nigeria? Seeing how hard we've worked in the fight against corruption and seeing the effort that an Andean government has put us in a better place with regards to corruption? The answer to that is quite simple. You cannot rule by propaganda. We were in this country when the former anti-corruption, Sir Magu, was apprehended by this government and charged for corruption activities. So if this government is even questioning their own leadership, how then do they query these types of data? And the problem is that, again, I say you cannot rule by propaganda. The rest of the world is looking at these measures and are acting. So you see companies taking businesses away from Nigeria and moving to other sub-Saharan Africa. Now, I'm not talking about continent-wide. I'm not talking about South Africa or Kenya. I'm talking about our near abroad. So you see countries moving to Ghana. Recently, there was this big Ferrari when Twitter decided to move to Ghana. And they listed almost the same things that this index listed about transparency, about personal rights, about respect for law and order. When, for instance, you beam out to the world and assault on the judiciary. I don't recall when the DSS went to the middle of the night to break down the doors of judges. Or when you remove your Chief Justice of Nigeria and the way we did just before the 2019 elections and replace him with what many analysts have called a party or a stage. You start to weaken trust, not just in your judiciary, but in the very essence and structures of what holds the nation up. And I would seriously suggest that rather than look at this as just an attack on government, analysts within government sit down and look at this information and try to address every single one. And it's very concerning that, for instance, even with all the insecurity in Mali, the terrorist issues, these guys are having in Mozambique. The recent, I'll call it changing government in Chad. We are third from bottom. We are only above Zimbabwe, which is literally a failed state. And Venezuela, it's a problem. We aren't competing with the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa, not to talk about the rest of the world. And with the size of our population, it should concern every single person who is truly interested in the progress of Nigeria. If there is any positive, it's that we have been on the path of progress before. I recall in 2013, also, Nigeria was one of the world's fastest growing economies. We're the largest economy. All right, well, back to it again. Of course, we struggled to have this conversation this morning, but we will succeed eventually. We apologize for the network inconturation. We'll definitely get back to our guests and get all the insights that they have to offer. And really, with this conversation, I would like us to begin to peek at the single points that they've mentioned. They said that they'll use 34 indices that they organized into seven pillars. They talked about leadership and policies. They talked about robust laws. They talked about security, helping people rise. I'd like us to begin to take a look at these indices one after the other and really say, as a country, where do we stand? And be honest with ourselves. Let's have very honest conversations regarding this. And eventually, towards the end of the conversation, ask, what is the likes of Singapore, of Switzerland, of Finland, doing much, much better than us that we can learn from? And what's stopping us, really, from emulating the facts and the policies that have been put to work in those countries? Well, you might be going too far. You might just reach out to Ghana, Switzerland and Finland or a world apart from us. But it's really about institutions. One of the things that I always ask, and I've always mentioned, even in previous interviews, is when a government comes into power, when this current government came into power, were they underprepared or were they overwhelmed with Nigeria's issues? There was mention of fixing Nigeria's institutions back then. How much stronger are our institutions today? Institutions that should fight corruption, institutions that should protect Nigerians, institutions that should ensure that Nigerians get a very, very robust social welfare package at all times. One of the things that was mentioned, and I think I'm going to go into that next, was the COVID-19 pandemic and how our institutions failed Nigerians during the pandemic. It's one of the things that I believe did a lot of damage to us with this report. How well our institutions are being fixed. We have, in the last couple of days, discussed a minister who was apparently forgiven by the presidency, whereas we should have a presidency as an institution, not as a person, not as a garbache, or a feminitional president, or a president should be an institution that should have its standards and should have ways with which it functions. So these are some of the things that we completely lack as a nation. And it's sad. I saw the show this one talking about how sad our reality truly is. And there's really not much of propaganda that can change what that reality is. Because it stares us in the face. And you can't avoid it. There's some good things that you can point out and say, yes, these things are working. The trains, for example, there are people who can now travel by train, even if, yes, it's still risky security-wise. But at least those things are in the works. And they are in motion, somehow, some way. So you can point that out and say, yes, at least give them that, that they've made that happen. But aside that, where are we as a nation? Do we still have the gods to call ourselves a giant of Africa in any way whatsoever? Or say, Nenny, welcome back. We completely apologize. My note, this isn't how we planned to have this conversation. But welcome back. I want you to speak on another part of the report. It says the CGGI explained that the ranking came during the COVID-19 pandemic, which exposed the strengths and the weaknesses in institutions, laws, and the leadership in countries as governance decides the success of these countries. So I want you to speak on how we handle the period of the COVID-19 pandemic and the institutions that we had in Nigeria to protect and, of course, to ensure a life for Nigerians. How embarrassing was our COVID-19 period? So I think the COVID-19 pandemic sort of tested all government structures all across the world. And we need to remember that leadership comes to the fore when there are problems, not whenever it is fine. So the COVID-19, I don't think, should be an excuse. What happened, for instance, in India and in the UK and America, you saw even though these were developed or almost developed nations, they struggled as well. In Nigeria, I think we have just been lucky that it hasn't been as devastating health-wise for us. But it has clearly exposed our inability to respond to nationwide crisis. If you have a flood or some other natural disaster or something like Ebola, for instance, if it comes back now, I don't know whether we'll be ready for it. And it goes back, I think, to maybe just a lack of trust in government and in leadership to provide solutions for us. The videos that we saw of people climbing warehouses trying to get to hooded boxes of Indomie and rice still traumatized me to this day. And again, I pray that the government looks at this report as a wake-up call. People have lost trust in the judiciary. People have lost trust in the armed forces and the police. People do not believe that these government economic policies will lift them out of poverty. And I hope truly that the government looks at this every single of the 34 indicators and starts to use it as a roadmap to progress and prosperity. All right, Ms. Sanika, I want to bring you in again. Are you there with us? Yes, I can hear you. All right, so when I read the Chandler report, I saw something very important that they mentioned. And they said that the strongest correlation to good governance, according to their findings, was the anti-corruption fight. But we have a government day in, day out that publicizes reports of just how many people they have arrested, how much they didn't regard it anti-corruption. So how, then, do we marry these two data we're seeing here, seeing that we're scored solo? But the media reports we see every day from the EFCC and other anti-corruption agencies seems like they're making progress. The government can always issue reports and talk about the progress that is being made. But as Nigerians, we have to look at empirical evidence. We're living in the country. We're seeing around us. We know that people who were jobless had nothing to do. And they take political office. And then suddenly they come upon a stupendous wealth overnight. And these people are not being heard to account. So any notion by the government that the anti-corruption war is being executed, it's not enough. That's what I would say. It's not adequate. Because if it were, then we wouldn't be having a dispute of corruption all over the place. Why do we know there is corruption? Every year, governments are all levels. Federal states and local governments, they budget. They make budgets. And these budgets cover all the facets of the human development indices, education, health care, infrastructure, and all of that. But we don't see these things improving. So if there is budget for roads, and we are not seeing roads improving, there's budget for water, and we are not getting packed on water into our homes. There's budget for education. But we see public schools are not getting better. Then what is the result? The simple result is that the budget is going somewhere else. If the budget was going to where it was targeted, we would see improvement in these services. So our duty as Nigerians is to appraise government vis-à-vis what we are seeing. Vis-à-vis empirical evidence. And if empirical evidence does not suggest that our lives are better this year than they were last year, it then means that the 2021 budget is not doing its work. That's all I can say about that. Oseneni, can we still salvage the Nigerian situation? Is it still possible that we can fix this, the current government in power, and, of course, change our ratings if there's going to be a Chandler government index rating maybe in 2023 or 2024? Is there still a possibility that we can move higher up on that rating? Mauritius currently is the highest country in Africa, African country rather in the rating. Is there still a possibility that that can be done? And what steps do you say should be taken? Let me just jump in quickly. I think, unfortunately, nothing will be done because we are firmly in campaign season now. And maybe that's the problem we have with this four-year election cycle. You only really have two years to govern, and then the remaining two years is wasted in campaigning. And the problem is because of the nature of the seriousness of the challenges we are facing, I truly worry whether we might even be able to have 2023 elections if insecurity and economic deprivation continues at pace. So I would again urge all government actors in government and even opposition politicians to set politics aside and just focus on fixing Nigeria. If we cause correct in two years, that will happen, but I don't believe it will happen. I don't know if you recall recently where Lagos passed a law mandating Lagos state courts to take over anti-corruption cases. And the signal at this center was that they were doing it because certain actors in Lagos were being persecuted by the federal. We cannot be playing politics with basic government, the basic rule of law, with basic economics. We cannot afford to. And I truly hope that the government sits down and looks at this report and uses it to cause correct. It's interesting to note that corruption was signaled as the largest indicator of failed governance. And we are right at the bottom. You know, we also will happen in the NDC, NDC national assembly probe. What billions of narrow was stolen and when these people were brought to account, they started fainting on national television. Yes, nobody has been arrested. Nobody has been charged to court. The whole match has been sucked under the table. So why are we surprised where the bottom are turning good governance index? Like Nick said, we empirical evidence suggests that we deserve to be where we are. And we really need to start fixing this fundamental problem before the national collapses around our heads. Nick, let's go back to Nick, where two years from the elections, just like Jose has mentioned, Nigerians are gonna be seeing new political actors or maybe same faces coming to vital positions. What are the things that you think, you know, should be axed off these persons if we need to in any way move higher up on this ranking? Now here is for since the advent of this current democratic dispensation in 1999, we have voted people into office based on maybe they brought back some rise to us and cubes of Maggie or the person is from my village or is from my state or is from my geographic location or he speaks the same language with me. And it has failed us. From 1999 to date, we have elected people who instead of delivering good governance to us have focused on safe enrichment and other agenda that they have. For 2023, Nigerians, first and foremost, most elect leaders who have a pedigree of community service if someone has never been part of the community, never cared about what the community is going through and only showed up when it is election time. You should know that that man is a businessman. He just came to buy your votes. He has no interest in serving you. We have people who have been with the communities who have stood with the communities not for any personal gain. People who have used their own resources to make communities better. We know them, you know, these are the people we should bring into office. If people don't have compassion over the sufferings of the people and you give them political office, there's no way they can give what they don't have. But if we have people who ordinarily are not even interested in power, their job is more or less like charity. They have always been there. That is the first thing. We must look at candidates who don't even have to look at political parties. We must appraise each candidate by his or her own merit. The second thing is that there is general empathy amongst Nigerians. When it comes to the electoral process, the presidential election of 2019 had maybe probably there were 30 million votes. 30 million votes out of 200 million Nigerians gave us this government that we have now. Other Nigerians sat at home and they were expecting other people to go and vote for them. Every Nigerian must take part in the political process. We cannot be sitting in the sitting room and saying that the kitchen is dirty and we are expecting clean food to come from that kitchen for us to eat. So Nigerians are saying the politics is a dirty game. They don't want to associate. We feel good by saying we don't do politics. That has to stop. Everybody, every Nigerian of voting age must get their PVCs. The PVC registration or renewal process is going to begin in June. As advertised by INEC, we must get our PVCs. That is the first level of participation. And then we must go out and vote. And then when we go out to vote, we must defend our votes. Don't call it 500 Naira and say your vote. You will suffer in the next four years. So we must sensitize our people. The middle class of Nigerians, that is those who are well educated, working in good companies, living in estates, they leave this political space for the lower class. We must come out from our beautiful estates. We must descend from our high-rise buildings and be part of the political process. It is upon us to educate our people and tell them that they must be part of the political process. So carrying our PVC should be a thing of pride, a thing of, if somebody does not have a PVC, it should be looked upon as a societal reject. All right. It's the only way we can arrest the decline. Ms. Adjuli, I have a question for you and Mr. Anani quickly. Looking at this global government index, they mentioned economy as one of the key indices that used to raise these countries. And they mentioned that the countries have scored really high. They had great market economies. And you see here in Nigeria, lots of entrepreneurs, but they complain about the ease of doing business, even just to register your business is a problem to get to your NAVDAC registration number is a problem, just lots of challenges. So going forward, in the light of all we've been discussing for the next elections and the next government we're about to have, what should they do to make our marketplace more attractive? Ms. Adjuli first. The government, President Buhari only needs to have one agenda. And that agenda is law enforcement. Nigeria has a lot of laws. Okay. Why are we struggling to get Ms. Adjuli? Oh, Anani, are you there? I'm here. All right. Please let us know your thoughts on this matter. So we heard the conversation that this current government is heading to in 2015, when in the hope of pictures one or two pictures and beautiful country in the world. I think Nigeria is such a diverse country. We've such a diversity of problems. But what we need is not one candidate to come in and fix the economy, or one candidate to come in and fix the security. But a candidate who can bring together if he doesn't have the attitude himself, a convention of leaders that can address any of the problems Nigeria can't deal with at the same time. Speaking to these governments, you know, you have this sort of dichotomy or this tension where I will admit that Professor Sibadjo has pushed for the ease of doing business reforms. But then you have other hands of government, for instance, like at the presidency, they are shutting down cross-border trades on central bank and money, and items of the type of disarmament giving licenses to billionaires. This type of disarmament, you know, scares investors really. And if this government were to address, you know, the fact that we have almost 50% of our youth unemployed and we have double digit inflation, it would be to address this problem. It would be to address it in one voice and not have different hands pulling in different directions. So the 2022 election, what I was saying is, I think the NLRBC government has left the way to give us a clear answer election, and that would have to be anchored on electoral reform. I don't, just looking at the body language of the presidency and the National Assembly, I don't think we will have too many widespread electoral reform, but we don't need too many widespread electoral reform. It can be incremental progress, and that will be better if the electoral process in 2020, there is better than 2019. That's good enough. And in this moment, I'm building whatever progress this government manages to leave us with. But I want to do a comment there. You guys do have the role to play in public campaigns and elections. And the media cannot, I think, afford to sit on the fence because you are also stakeholders in Nigerian projects. So I would love to see the media take a more active role in amplifying the thoughts and abilities of candidates from Nigeria that are not deceived by parties and from Uganda. All right. Jose Aneni, thank you so much for your time. Thanks for speaking with us. Nika Gule, also thank you for joining us this morning. We apologize for the poor network quality most of the interview. Thank you very much for sharing with us this morning. Thank you both. Thank you very much. All right. So the electricity debate, that's another area we can discuss at another time. We can't wait to talk about that so we will take a break here and we will discuss the word day for workplace health and safety right after this.