 Welcome to JSA TV and JSA Podcasts, the newsroom for telecom and data center professionals. I'm Jean-Marie Sliman, joining me today is Eddie Kilbane, CEO and co-founder of Dataplex Group. Eddie, thank you so much for joining us. How have you been in the last 18 months? I know you're in a hotel, you're traveling, which is quite a rarity nowadays. I know, it's a very, very large rarity these days. So yeah, I mean, like everybody else working from home and extremely busy because clearly the market is very point in the moment, everybody looking for more and more data center space. So we've been extremely busy looking for new locations, working with clients and customers to try and see what their next move is and try and work with them to address their demand and their growth plans that they've got. Clearly it's allowed the market and the clients to look internally what they need and where they want to go and what really the data center is going to look like now over the next 10 years. So lots of talk about sustainability, lots of talk about reducing our carbon footprint and there are things that we as a very agile company are able to work with them to achieve. So we're looking at doing that. So yeah, it's good, very positive. Positive during that very negative period, I should say. Yes, there's always a civil lining. I mean, everything in life, thank you. I don't think I've ever had the opportunity to say I've tested negative, so that's great. With a COVID test, you know. No, well, it's a weekly thing now. I didn't mind yesterday, so it's still negative. But I mean, you mentioned the next day, what the data center is going to look like in 10 years time. What will the data center of 2031 look like? And what are the construction challenges that come with it? Well, I think for us all, I mean, we've got to look at just in terms of how we're going to power the data centers. What power, what backup power are we going to have? So you're going to see a lot more gas turbines going into that gas generation down at the site, whether it's permanent in terms of because of the lack of grid capability across Europe at the moment, or whether it's just temporary backup, we're going to see a lot more gases turbines connected as opposed to the original diesel fuel. As you see more and more green hydrogen coming through, that's going to wash through with not just the generating plants, but our own on-site temperature generating plants. So we'll work with clients for that. We're working also in terms of looking at higher density racks and servers. So we've got a program working with a manufacturer and the design team in Ireland on on-chip cooling. So they're working with server manufacturers about deploying on-chip cooling pads internally. My own design team, then they're looking at the a hydrogen system inside the data hall retrofitting existing space to bring those there. So the client doesn't have to strip out the whole of their infrastructure. They can replace additional infrastructure with on-chip cooling type pipeline, etc. And then still maintain their cool systems, their airflow systems, because it has to be a combination of both. You're not going to just get everything being addressed with on-chip cooling. So you need to have some airflow as well. So it's that combination. So we've been working on that. So they're the sort of things we see densities is certainly going up in the last four years. We've seen them rise from six kilowatts to eight to now we're at 10. And we're seeing 16s now becoming quite normal. So as those densities rise, we've got to find better, more efficient systems to actually remove that heat from the data center. So heat exchangers, very close to the source of the heat. So you can start using that heat. And it's still a bit grainy how hot that's going to be. But at least it can feed into a glass house or be part of a community heat system or whatever. It can add to it or in the building itself. So it's not going to replace a whole heating systems, not at this stage, but certainly it may be in 20 years time where we see densities at 30 and 40. You may even have a greater heat source that you can do something with. So there's some of the footprints that we're taking at the moment, sorry, steps that we're taking a moment so that we can move forward and show that we're still innovating in terms of trying to reduce the footprint that we create. As a company, our focus is always on existing buildings. So we like Brownfield sites, we like existing sheds that could be repurposed, or we like old data centers that we can strip out and we can put in a new fully compliant, fully operational facility. But it's already a data center. So it's already got that footprint of the planning consent. It's already got power there. So we've got to increase the power capacity of the site. And that could be a mix of onsite generation as well as as utility grid. So as a company, that's our sort of focus. And that's where we're working with existing data center operators to see how we can take their assets. And for them as well, then they can go back internally and say that their governance in terms of handing that over to the next owner or occupier is such that it's reducing their business in terms of the carbon footprint, because a lot of these buildings have been demolished in the past. Well, that's only adding to the overall unsustainability of the planet. So they're also contributing by disposing with that asset and someone else then demolishing it. So we're trying to repurpose it and that helps them in terms of their disposals. So it's a win-win for everybody. And for the clients, it means that we can deliver product quicker to the market. We're looking at the third, the second, the top, the low end of the second tier market and the third tier markets is where we're looking at. We're looking at those next-age locations that customers are going to need, the five to 20 megawatt type footprints, all with growth potential, but they're the sort of solutions. Other things we're doing, we're working with people that are doing waste to energy plants to try and get close to them. So we can do behind the wire connections against sustainable energy, sustainable footprints. And really it is all about that. That is the biggest driver we've seen under COVID. That's the focus because it's allowed people to sit back and say, this is this has caught us all unawares, but if we need to move forward, what do we need to do? And if you look at some of the big hyperscale statements that have been made about the fact that they'd all like to be carbon neutral at 2025, 2030, and you see how many wind farms and solar plants they're buying and investing in, they're going to achieve those aims by just having their own sources of power generation. We can't do that. We're not a big enough industry to do that. Our company's to do that. So we've got to look at them. How do we also help them and work with them then to do other things? And that's really our driver. And we have a good team with a new group of very seasoned professionals who've now joined the business, and that's helping me because it's bringing new ideas and new experiences into the company. So it's a huge asset. Okay, there's quite a lot of follow-ups there. Bigging up maybe on the hyperscale is building their own renewable energy plants compared to our industry that we probably don't have the means to do it. Most companies around the world don't have the means to do it. Do you see that changing, ever changing? Because we've seen a lot of green bonds being done in the last few months, in the last two years. Is our industry going to focus more on just getting energy from the grid? Or we will get into actually building our own solar wind farms? Okay, so having just pure solar and wind and those types of renewable energies is great, but it doesn't stabilise the grid. So you're still going to need some sort of generation that's going to create the frequency the network needs to stabilise it. So I think it's going to be a combination. I think with green gas coming, a green energy gas coming through hydrogen, I think that's going to help. I think we're going to see more forms of more sustainable gas production, which will then help those generating plants. And what it do see is that the hyperscalers are so cash-rich, they don't mind spending money on things that are very far out there to do that. Certainly what we've seen from my experience in Ireland is that Amazon, Facebook, Google, they've all bought wind farms in their own name. So not just buying the capacity on it, but buying the ownership as well. So that they own that, that they'll have the right to that use then for the perpetual. They're the sort of investments those guys are making. And if you think about where they've come from, from just offering originally software services and then online services to owning the road data centres, most of those companies now are the largest owners of fibre in the world. So why do we not think that they won't and also invest in grid or in other energy sources to make sure that their business isn't interrupted and is stable. And some of the things we're seeing across Europe at the moment come to an end, because there isn't a country in Europe at the moment, apart from France possibly, with all of this nuclear energy that isn't hit by governments insisting you've got to close down coal plants, you've got to close down pea plants like in Ireland and the Boland, or you've got to start producing your reliance on fossil fuels for gas. You start going to invest in hydrogen production so that you can have that mix. They're the challenges that the grid faces. The biggest challenge the grid faces though is the age of the grid. The physical cables that leave those generating plants are at an age where the volume of power going through them today is what they were expecting in 30, 35 and much later. But the power is going through today because of the demand and that's a bigger challenge. And they're things that aren't going to be quick to fix because they're massive infrastructure projects within themselves. And we've all got to work together to help that. Yeah. I was going to ask you what would you like to see to be done in that space? Would you like governments to step in more? Would you like taxes to help, not just to increase bolsters, there isn't operators changing their consumption? What can Europe do to help solve this problem? Because not all countries have their grids controlled by the governments anyway. No, at some level, I think that there's been a lot of money invested in those there. But a lot of shareholders has taken a lot of dividends out without probably investing further. I think their time to continue the investment was completely out of tilt to what was happening with Moore's law, if nothing else, just in terms of what's happening in industry, in the world, in everything we do, whether it's car manufacturing or shipbuilding, whatever. Technologies keep changing as Moore and Moore suggest. But the grids didn't. They set and they didn't look for accelerated programs or accelerated times to replace. They didn't look at ways of burying the capers so they lasted longer. They didn't do things that were simple at the time. And governments and industry and people paid a lot of taxes back then to do it. And I think that those investments need to be looked at again and either taken off them and redistributed or new investment put into there. But I don't think the common people can pay additional taxes. And certainly it's not the data center's business to pay additional taxes because we're paying for the base load then for those generating plants to stay up. But nobody's invested in the grid because they've taken all the money and they've used it in other things. So I think there's got to be a bit of a reckoning and I think people have got to bury their heads in the sand. It isn't the data center's responsibilities to start building micro energy plants and providing island power for their own buildings or alternative power for the grid itself. That's not their job. That's generating plants and the national grids themselves. And I say that because of the recent CRU documentation or consultive process that was in Ireland recently. The same is going to happen in England and the same is going to happen in Germany just because of the demand that's being put on there. So there was going to be challenges. In the UK last year, we've seen that in 2019, we've seen the first brownheads. A brown out when a power station or a substation up in Newcastle got hit. And that's something that so something fundamentally went wrong with the grid and they're the things that worry industry and worry everybody. It couldn't have been recovered. So the grid in itself has to look at into its own business and find out what the situation is. I wouldn't suggest for a minute that it's the hyperscalers role to go and invest in those grids. But will they or can they? I'm not sure. Cool. And Eddie, if people want to learn more about data flex and what you do and hear your next wave of news stories coming out, where could they go? So we have our website clearly dataplexgroup.com. And those who know me in the industry can find me on LinkedIn. I'm always happy to share. Happy to give people my opinion and share my experiences and also to give some advice as well when people are sort of a challenge in terms of what to do next. So happy to help. The industry is great. There's some really lovely people around. Always good people to give you good solid advice. In Ireland, we've been blessed with people like Chris Maltel and Brendan Gaggin, as well as Colin himself, who gives great advice. And in the UK, we got the likes of Matt Pullin and Andrew Jay and Duncan Club there. So it's a nice association to be in. It's a vertical. It's great to be in it. There's enough room for everyone. And yeah, it's a good industry to be in. It is indeed a great industry to be in. And we all fell into it almost by mistake. Exactly. Exactly. I made a single person that has chosen the industry. Eddie Kilvane, CEO of Dataflex. Thank you so much for talking to us. And thank you our viewers for tuning in to JSA TV and JSA Podcast. And don't forget to check out social channels for more content. Until next time, happy networking. Yes, lovely talking to you. You take care. See you soon. Thank you.