 Welcome. This is Jenkins documentation office hours. It is the 17th of March. Asia time. And today top of the agenda is a Gitter tutorial for me by Chris and then we've got several other topics that we made may spend time with and may not. But that's the first one. Chris, are there any other topics you wanted to put on the agenda today. Okay, Google summer of code. Good. All right. Anything else. All right, then let's take on Gitter tutorial. So this is me requesting help because I'm struggling to find myself in the new matrix based user interface of Gitter. So here's Oh and now everything's caught up. This does not help me at all. I You have to click on because like I but for now is like I didn't see any mention of you as well because if you click on, if you go, go to the right hand side top way inside. And it's your title box. Not this one the next next one. Next. Next, this one the threads. Yeah. Okay. If, if, if for that channel, if there's a friend, it will pop up there. But for the alarms, you can just go to the alarm. The bell. The bell. Okay, so the notifications. All right. You should be able to find all notifications. Okay, and what I was seeing is that over here on the left. In the in this panel that shows the rooms the various places I could go the conversations I could be in. I would see indications that there was a message or there would be a number on the right hand side here near the notification options bell. And that number would never go away no matter what I did trying to navigate around in that. So I think they have a bug because sometimes you have like you have read the message in this right. It shows up. But once you have a new message and on the same thread, it would go away. Ah, okay, so they have a bug. I don't need to be, I don't need to be, need to be gravely concerned if, if a number three appears on gsoc sig, or in my case it was a number 25 appears on the gsoc sig. And as far as I can tell, I've looked at everything. Therefore, the fact that that number continues to exist is not a problem. Well, the thing is, if you have 25 of them, it's probably not a bug because if you go through thread, the word thread to a lot of it, that's like a back button. The thread that you see the word on the right hand side. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, the thread right here. The button on the left hand side. Okay, this one. Yeah, click on that. I can see like, if like, if you haven't read a message for the threat that should be a dot on the right hand side to a timestamp. Okay, so, so if I haven't read a thread so if I were to mark this thread as unread, let's see, oh, there isn't a way to do that. No. Okay, so if there, if there were thread that I had not yet read. It would appear here there will be an indicator on the right hand side, like it would be roughly at this location. Yeah, yeah, yeah. About that. Okay, so it would like for, for if for when it's saying. There should be a dot, a gray dot or for if you miss them for missing in dark mode, but for you say that should be taught to the right hand side of the name of the person who probably started this one. Okay. Okay, so there will be a visual indicator on this line. Whoops, on this line vision, there will be a visual indicator that tells me, okay, I haven't read this one yet. Yep. New Massachusetts. It's fine. Yeah. Okay. And now, now this arrow that I'm hovered over that has the word threads. What's the meaning there okay so this is some. Oh, sorry, it's like, I confused the two is like, because I thought you on like threads and not to add. So if you go to threads like here. So that the dot should be to right hand side of the timestamp. Hey, the dot should be the right hand side of the timestamp so they would be here. Okay. All right, and so if I've not not read it, it will have an indicator there so if I, let's see if I and people now, my, my list of people is significantly smaller than it was before. Interesting. So if I start a new chat with. Okay. I was like, I was like, because if you click on the home button on the left because you see to, if you go to the left hand side. Yeah, click on that. Okay, now I see. Okay, so that that's something I was on the people. So here, if I were trying to talk with Vlad, I would click here and then I can see. Okay, here's this and it says no you can't do it. Vlad and I haven't talked in a long time so that's no shock. But if I were to click this plus and instead say, I want to talk with Chris Stern. Go. And this is the beginning of a conversation. Okay. And now if I navigate away from that and go back to another room. Eventually, I will probably get a some indicator that there's a message for me from you. I should be with it now if I go back to people. Okay, go back to people back to people. You see, do you see me. So because you have to show 48 more. Okay. There you are. Yeah, if you click on that. Okay, but I'll try again so go go back out. Okay, so. Going out going back to the Jenkins project. Okay. Oh, and here's a people in the Jenkins project. Interesting. Okay, and so it. The concept of home here. You're there but. Okay, but I made the mistake I was in a different place I was in the ready to see it. Okay, could you type one more message just to help me see if. Okay, there's a one. Here for you there's a one up here as well. And so, if I click any one of those it should take me there. Yep. And one will go away. Great. All right, so that was, I don't know why I was so perplexed because I was clicking on things up here. And or on on rose here and not getting anything to clear the, the, the, the indicator that the message was had been read. Okay, good. I have a question. I just noticed, I don't see that messages have timestamps. Actually, I think they do. I think if we look here, or there was the timestamp view was in the thread. So I think I saw, there's a date stamp. And there's a timestamp. I think I meant the dates, the timestamp, not the dates them. I just, I just send you a message in the dark channel. Okay, and there's, and there's the one in the Jenkins and Jenkins stocks. Good. Okay. Oh, no. Oh, there it is. Sure. Okay. So that was not. Not that one go to threats. Oh, go to threads. Okay, so I got to go to threads. Click on the button. Yeah, the back button. Hey, see me. Yeah, the right hand side. I see that one. Okay, all right. So, so finding that that was that was a crucial thing I suspect. I need to learn to navigate threads more effectively so I enable the threads. And then by showing all threads. Or if I just show threads I've participated in that would have shown it to me so. Yes. And now if I navigate away so let's say I go to the get lab plugin to look at it for a little bit. Then if you send a message in the docs channel, or in the docs room. Then we'll see a notification there. And then if it's in the thread, I've got to go find that thread. Okay, and there's the so clicking the channel. And this was the active thread so that's why I got lucky and it showed up there. Yeah. All right. Okay, thank you Chris. Thank you for everything else. Back to the time like when I looked at this and I saw Kevin sing that a meeting starting in 30 minutes. How do I quickly know 30 minutes from when. Good and I'm not sure there is a way to tell in this view. Let's see so oh wait a sec here it is you see the time. Some of them now up above there's a mark weight that doesn't show a time. You have to hover over it. Although I'm not sure that that really tells me what I need because this was was sent Chris what probably. Oh this was today so so this was less than 24 hours ago. It says today. Yeah. Okay, then if I go back. Where did you see that it says today. Right in the middle see that little. Why on earth they made it in such faint lettering I do not know but it says today, center. Oh, got it right there. Okay, there's a heading. Okay yesterday today. Okay good. So they've got they've got larger groupings by day. So if I go back Monday, Saturday, okay good so I need to learn to read that very good okay. Alright so hovering gives me a timestamp and the day is hinted here or it's visible. Where else did I see it oh if I hover over it. No where was it if I hover over the time it gives me a full date. So Wednesday 15 March 1220. It's going to be local time my local time right. I would I would imagine so because 1220 UTC would be very early in the morning and I'm unlikely to have written that at that hour the morning for me. Yeah. All right, good. Okay so date information there date information available there person here. Threads are the the crucial thing there. Anything else Chris that you need to need to highlight for me is the amateur who doesn't use this system well. I think like they have a new feature like let me check because I think you have it too because if you go to home button. Okay home home and. If you go to the Jenkins space because like for for like you see if you let's see. So we get if you get on the Jenkins icon. Okay so this one. Yeah, you can see like everything in the Jenkins space. So they have people in rooms for these are these to the home button and Jenkins they're linked up. So I will show up at your home button and also in the Jenkins workspace. I see. Okay, all right so because you're in your I'm not sure I understand the why of that but that's great so so conversations with you will be visible to me in either place because here under people there's Chris Stern. And in the Jenkins rooms, I mean in Jenkins you're here top of the list for people. So somehow they knew that yours, you're in my interactions happen in the context of Jenkins. Okay. That's right. Very good thank you. Anything else I need to know. Let's see the add button here. Oh this lets me explore other rooms if I don't think. Okay. All right then let's call that one done. Go ahead. Say again Chris. Okay. All right. Okay so see the recording. For details on the user interface. And how to use it well. Good. Thank you. All right next topic then was Google summer of code. Yep. So we had a meeting yesterday. I think Shawn talked about like the drafting of those and gave some means and tips. And that's, that was a short meeting. Okay. And well John, John Mark had told me that. Sorry Chris, you're breaking up. Oh, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. So there were risks from the contributors asking for reviews. At least that's what are there were requests from contributors asking for reviews of their proposals. Yeah. And there's a sheet that John Mark has a has a sheet that tracks reviews right. That's right. Okay good so Mark has several to review others likewise. And for me, I doubt that I will not likely to review them tomorrow because I have a number of things I have to do for work review until the weekend. Okay, Saturday or Sunday. So is the is the, the workload in the, in the chat channels. Okay for you Chris. I think so yeah. Okay. It's not not overwhelming you with too many questions too much load. Not really no, not not currently. Great. Okay. Well, thank you for what you're doing there that's wonderful. So I've seen several poll requests. Several that's not not the right way to say it many poll requests from from candidates and some of them were exceptionally brave we've talked about one here in or some in in Docs office hours that bondage saying submitted some significant documentation work. And it's still in review because the place that it was changing is dramatic enough it's the upgrade guide and that thing is, there's there's enough complexity in it that it's got to have a long and detailed review by people who've done lots of upgrades. So marks review is the big is pending. And others have submitted likewise. Good docs tests for plugins, etc. It's really positive. Anything else on Google Summer of Code Chris. I think we have to, I think we should mention that the application is going to open in three days on this one too. Oh, right. Yes, very good. So, so let's talk timeline. Okay, so applications are made may be submitted to Google. Yeah, beginning. And let's get it. Okay, March 2023 application period closes. For April is that right. Yeah, that's right. Thus, they really want correctly so right they want feedback on their on their draft proposals now before that opening. That way they're not waiting till the last minute to submit their proposal. Okay, yeah. All right, so this weekend is a good time to review proposals. Yep. Very good. And then the next big milestone is it early May, where the project submits the project reviews all final proposals all final project plans. It compares their response to Google where the response is, how many projects are we proposing. Are we reckon offering to accept. And how who are the mentors. And how many per project. Any other items we need to insert me need to carry here Chris, how many and which projects, the project reviewers actually say, we think this one is good and this one's good right. Correct. Yeah, you're right. It's which projects. It's, it's not just which projects are we offering to accept right. And we offer to Google and they make that we may say, Hey, we think we could run for here is how we would staff them, etc. Google may come back and say we'll give you two. Okay. But we could and we could say we can staff for but we think these eight are worthy or whatever right. That that I'm not sure because we're going to only cares about which things will staff right if, if, if they, if there's a useful project but it doesn't have a mentor, or it doesn't have a good proposal it doesn't matter. They absolutely want something that that has mentors assigned and that the open source project is ready to support. Yeah. Anything else Chris. Maybe not. Okay. Good. All right. Thank you. Other topics I had are relatively brief. It was we thanks on the LTS. It's done. The changelog is actually that we can delete. So the LTS was for 375.4 387.1 and 3.94 security updates security vulnerabilities fixed anything else on those LTS releases. Okay, so next piece is we're planning to transition the install documentation and the general use documentation from Java to Java 11 to oops from Java 11 to Java 17. The idea is that we are really approaching the time when we would prefer users install with Java 1711 is still supported but there's no reason not to use Java 17 now. And so the idea is that since Debbie and 12 will drop Java 11 completely and is expected to release sometime in the April May timeframe. And that means that is our justification to switch to documenting Java 17. And you said Java 11 will continue to be supported, not past when Debbie and drop support for it right. Oh no even past that because the Debian project ending support for it just means that Debian doesn't want to Debian Debian won't have a very long life cycle right three to five years and Java 11 won't be supported by Oracle beyond like 2020 late 2024 and Debian says hey that's that's not I think they're there logic is that's that's not a long life cycle for us to have 11 in Debian 12 the other vendors like eclipse tamarin will continue to support Debian and including Debian 12 running Java 11. Okay, so it's it's not this doesn't prevent wouldn't prevent us from continuing to do it we just didn't want the hassle of describing. So if you're running Debbie and 12 you need to use Java 17 we'd rather just say everybody use Java 17 and let them then decode oh I need Java 11 fine use Java 11 instead. So there was a surprise that we had a puzzle crow has recently fixed a bug in the job DSL plug in that was Java 17 specific. And so they there are still a few of that was the most recent that's the only one I'm aware of and it's now fixed. Excellent. So, but just just be aware that this change is coming. This, we will need eventually and a plan for when we transition off Java 11 completely but Java 11 continues supported by the upstream by the Java providers until at least late 2024. So we've got a long life ahead of it. Any questions there on the Java 17 transition. Okay, so the rest of these I'm not sure that there's anything for me to say. That the two of you would be interested in because we've got an idea of how to tell people that we're ending support for something. And we're going to propose that idea as a Jenkins enhancement proposal, and then you let the community help figure out what's the best way to do this thing. So the proposals are Ubuntu 18 is end of life in April, Cento seven is end of life in June of 2024 Alpine Linux 3.14 is end of life in like May of 2023. Each of these things are not Jenkins, but it would be good for Jenkins to tell the administrator of the Jenkins system that they're running on a thing that will be deprecated and unsupported as of such and such a date, or if that date is past that they are now running on an unsupported thing. Right. Okay. But that covered all the topics that I had the same thing is for Cento seven with one additional twist. The additional twist with Cento seven is, I intend I will propose that we end the support of Cento seven, even before the operating system provider ends it. So they will stop supporting it in June of 2024, but I'm tired of it. And I'm going to propose that we end maintenance of it earlier than that. Think September, October, maybe, maybe as late as December of this year. Those are all the topics that I had any other topics that we need to discuss today. Yeah, no question though. It's like for for you a US time zone meeting. So what's the outcome of that, because like people are asking like if if we should add a link to the Twitter. But I think the second was no. But then someone has some more than one person. They asked, like, whether we could put it somewhere else, at least more visible, like really. So, so tell me tell me your question was, where is the zoom link for the books for the books, like we have a books page right. Oh, okay. Alright, so I see I see. Okay, got it. So, so make let me show you what's what Chris is asking about. So on Jenkins is that I'll page we're familiar with and the about lets us navigate to various topics and things. One of the things it doesn't have though. So we've got the roadmap we've got the download page the awards page, etc. What we don't have though is a link to this page, the books page. And thanks to Chris actually that this books page exists. But it's, it's not linked into the navigation structure at all yet. Oh, and so the question then was, where should I think Chris your question was where should it be linked into the structure into the navigation. And I'm not sure, but I did see an example from heaven. Kevin Martin showed an example today from the open stack website where they had a link to books. I wanted to see if we see it in their navigation pages so learn. Whoops, that didn't help back learn. Maybe books there marketplace maybe in marketplace. Oh yes, here's where he found it. Okay. So it was somehow in this open stack marketplace. And then there was a, maybe it was under training. No. How did he find it. Okay, just a minute. Keep looking. Community news marketing resources, maybe no. No marketplace. Docs. Okay, I do not know I know during office hours, he showed us this and it was on a page like this where what they had was. They had maybe infra solutions and nope. They had in this kind of a layout so it was inside the open stack marketplace. They had a page that showed a book image here and a brief description of the book here. And then I get button here that I clicked on the get button and it took me to a vendor that would be willing to sell me the book. So, but now the problem is this hasn't told me how he got there. Oh, go to search, search. Oh, search. Good idea. Okay, so maybe we look for books. Open stack technical publications. Ah, yes. There it is. Okay, so this is the page he showed us. Apparently it's not hooked into the navigation tree because I don't, I don't see how we get there except by doing search. But he thought, hey, this is the same kind of thing that we're using okay our layout is a little different but it's a similar concept right where we've got mastering Jenkins this jumps to the vendor that will sell it to you. Okay, here's the cover and here's a summary with some data about it. And but no place to click and buy it. Well, well no it's not so much because I can certainly I can, I can click here and it will take me to it let me buy it from the vendor from Amazon. Okay, that's going to go to Amazon. Right and this one because it's from packed I think we'll go. Oh it goes to Amazon as well okay. So that the open stack books when they come from packed publishing, they actually jump to the pack site like this. Ah, so and I'm not sure if the sellers of the books would prefer we went there if they're to the publisher site or if we we go to a seller site like Amazon or Barnes and Noble or whoever. This one probably goes to Amazon yeah so. Now Chris, I thought your question was where do we hook it into the menu. Right. And I would say we ought to put it here in the about. So did you have an about but as we moved. Oh, oh okay meaning it was removed by by Gavin Morgan or say we did. It was not sure. Okay, so so I have a I would guess we did have a link. Yeah, so let's do it Jenkins dash IO components. And where is it. No, maybe I've got the wrong site. I'll have to go looking for it. No, that's not it. So it was Gavin Morgan. These are the web components. Okay, so Gavin, this should take us there because he will have done recent contributions to it. So login site. Oh, come on show me more. Here it is Jenkins IO components. I suspect what happened is that in the transition from the standard menu to web components, Gavin may have just missed that. But you had put it into the about menu is that right Chris. Okay, so then, then now what we need to do is we need to find roadmap, and it is here. This is the navigation bar and the footer. I didn't remember the footer having much in oh yes okay right. So here we all right okay and it probably does need to be in both doesn't it. Because under resources book seems like a good choice to be under resources wouldn't it downloads blog documentation book seems like a good thing there. Yeah. Merchandise so books might be a another thing to go under. So category. Okay well so shall we make a proposal here. I'm not sure how to do it I, and I certainly don't know how to test it but I think it's, it's worth us saying hey we think it should go in the nav bar we think it should go in the footer. But I think someone already opened a PR to put in the photo. Oh they did. Oh okay so we should be able to see it in stop filtering just a minute. Let me get back to where I was there. Okay, all requests. Add books hyperlink. Okay. And now it's failing. Okay. Yeah, I think not my fault it's not in favor of it. Okay, go down further. Oh, okay so they're saying hey they don't think it should be in the footer. Okay, I'm fine with that too. Yeah, it'd be a terrible thing for it to be on the drop down under documentation. Let's see how big the drop down is. See I would hesitate to put it there because on a small screen that risks running overrunning the vertical, but the about is only five, five long. Yeah. I would hesitate to put it under documentation. But, but I guess it's, it's not unreasonable to consider it and we could for instance, decide that we're going to shrink this thing where it has two entries for tutorials now that really, they're easily easily navigated. We're just making it one, one line instead of three. And then maybe we could have a book section that says hey, here, here are the here are the user guide solution pages tutorials developer guide contributor guide and books. I put it at the very end. I'm just saying I could see, you know, you hit documentation because I'm somebody who's willing to read. Right. You know, and I'm looking for a general something. I don't know. Yeah, in fact, maybe documentation is a better choice than the about menu I was thinking of about just because it's short, but really about's not an obvious place to go for a book whereas documentation seems like a more obvious place Chris what do you think is like we should put it on those books. Okay, good. All right, so let's, it feels like then we ought to weigh in that hey, the, the, the question here was whoops where to go this one. No, I owe components. Nope, this one. Okay. Okay, so, so we've discussed in Docs office hours, Asia, and felt that we should add books to the end of the documentation menu, documentation drop down menu, and that we should save space. Save vertical space vertical vertical space in the drop down by converging by removing by replacing. The three rows. Tutorial. What about relating the sub links to the tutorials. Oh, all right. There we go. There is a big story. So we're saying we don't need the two underneath it. Right, the tutorial sub items by removing the tutorial. What would you call sub menus. I will yeah, or sub links or. Yeah, so the, which was guided tour, and other tutorials. The tutorials page as guided tour. As it's top page as it's top segment, as it's first segment, and then the other tutorials are right below it. The two are in the next segment. Good. So are you are the two of you okay with me and how I phrased it there. Yep. Agreed that it is not significant enough to justify insertion into the footer. Although I think header space is even more valuable than footer but I understand that. If they, if they don't want it in the footer no problem. No argument how about this way no argument that it not be in the footer. You left up the knot. Right. There we go. That's a really bad phrase sentences and that's terrible. No problem for us. That it is not in the footer. Footers anyway. Don't tell anyone I said that okay. Good enough. Yeah. All right. Excellent thank you. Any other topics for today. I confess I'm, it's almost 10pm my time so I'm running out of running out of. I was wondering about this time I mean this is going to be for many, because this was an hour earlier. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It was last year for G sock. Well, but the, the problem is if we move it right now it's 830 a.m. or it was at the start of the meeting was 830 a.m. India standard time. Okay. Chris what time is it for you now for 30 a.m. Oh, it's now. Oh. 10 minutes to 12pm. This is actually a not bad time you're actually awake usually at this time then huh. It's like 1150 now. Wait a second 1150 p.m. a.m. Okay good so it's the sun is up. It's sort of the middle of your day. Yeah just before lunch. Okay, all right. Good. All right so I assume this time works okay for you Chris then. Yep. It's not that you're you certainly are not required to attend. But yes he is. I miss you Chris you must be there. Okay. But I want to be sure that we've got a reasonable time for those who are in India. If when dirage wants to join us or somebody else wants to join and so. So this time works well for them because it's 830 a.m. All year round so it's not terribly early there morning but it's it's still early enough to be a you could squeeze it in. Okay. And you can do it mark without dying. But we'll see if I if I start dying. I'll end the meeting earlier, etc. Okay. I'm not going to watch. Or even a half hour. I don't know. I don't care I'm on European time so. Exactly. All right. Anything else from either of you. No, no good meeting. Okay. Thanks for your time. Recording will be available whenever I get it published. Thanks everybody. Bye. Bye.