 Hello there. It's Thursday at noon. I know it is. Do you remember our... arrangement? Thursdays at noon on CFUV. Are you ready to get started? What do you have in mind? What I want to do now is called First Person Plural. You make it sound excessively attractive. That's what I have in mind. The busy city streets. Along the shoreline, people walk or run. Some choose to head down the bluff to the shore itself and enjoy the cool, salty waters of the Straits of Wanda Fyokong. Watching a passing sea lion or bird or boat or ship. Some push their bodies to the limits, running or jogging full speed, burning calories and enjoying the feeling of movement. As rubber soil hits tarred pavement and arrhythmic ritual, as the landscape passes through their vision as a blur. Some stroll casually along the path and join the scent of the flowers and the sea air, mindfully taking in the beauty of the coastline. They push walkers or strollers or wheelchairs. They talk with friends. They listen to their personal stereos, alone in the crowd. They pursue these various activities in orderly fashion, yielding for the quickest among them in choreographed movements that belie their happenstance. Like good members of the community, most do not stray from the paths provided. That is, most of the two-legged creatures stay on the path. Dallas Road is a dog haven. On any summer, afternoon or evening, dogs happily run, fetch, drool, swim, roll on their backs and check out every smell they possibly can find. Some of them stay close to their human companions. Others run freely, happy to let out their inner wolves to roam the bluffs. While some are more shy than others, all of them seem quite pleased to be out in the sun, doing what comes naturally. Originally, we approached several dogs and their human companions to see if we could record some barking and panting noises to add as background for our show. What we ended up recording was a wonderful collection of human-dog interaction. Hi! Hi! Boy, you're a big guy. Yes, you are. You need to eat the mic. I get her going here. Hey, baby! You talk to me? What do you say? What do you say? Speak. Speak. Come on. Speak. Speak. All right. She's got a great voice. Oh, look at this. Oh, Jolly, you see. So is this Prince? No. It's Alexis. What do you say? You talk to me? You talk to me? She howls, but only on a cake. Slavery. What do you say? It's too hot to do this, isn't it? What do you say? What do you say? Yes, you're a good girl. Hey, what's your name? Morgan. Well, I have a cookie. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, she likes that. Markey, sit. Sit. Good girl. You ate a tick. You're going to do a good, good bark. Oh, here. We'll take her. She'll eventually bark. Well, we hate you, dog. She's trying to hold it in. Come on, Markey, let her rip. Okay. Boy, that looks good. But you guys did a good job for her. Come on, Markey bark. She seems well mannered at least. If you say speak, will she speak? No, I don't train her to bark. That's what you're trying to get her not to do, usually. And you know how it works. That's good enough. I can't frustrate her anymore with a cookie. Was that the magic word? Was that the magic word? Yeah. Sit. Can you talk to me? Oh, well. All these movie star types. Yeah, he needed his contract sign first. Thanks a lot. Bye, Dexter. That was a good bark. It's supposed to be Tasha. PCA. But in short. I guess I'm supposed to pick this up and throw it, aren't I? Yeah. I'm not very good at throwing. Whoa. Big doggie car. Where is he going? Got it. You're listening to First Person Plore on CFUV 101.9 FM Victoria. Symbolic Interactionism is a term coined by sociologist Herbert Bloomer in 1937 and represents one of the major approaches to social phenomena taken by sociologists. According to SI people attach meanings to things they encounter. Those meanings are created through social interaction. Words and gestures are the means by which people share meanings with each other. People anticipate what others do based upon those meanings. So for a symbolic interactionist words, gestures and meanings in mundane exchanges merit close study and understanding. Dr. Clint Sanders is a symbolic interactionist. He has been a professor of sociology at the University of Connecticut since 1976. About 10 years ago his career literally went to the dogs. During that time he has turned his attention to human-dog interactions. This may not be as far-fetched as it seems. He has co-authored one book on sociology of animals regarding animals with Arnold Arluk and another book specifically about dogs understanding dogs, living and working with canine companions. He has also done research on veterinary practices and he is currently studying police dogs and their human partners. We talked to him by phone recently and discussed his interest in dogs and his assertion that if we want to understand human society fully, we need to acknowledge that we live in an interspecies society. How long have you been doing research on dogs? Since the late 80s actually. What I do is ethnography. So I had finished up a large project I was studying. The world surrounding tattooing and wanted to do something completely different and had gone to high school in Marstown, New Jersey which is where the guide dog program is. So I had seen guide dogs a lot and was kind of interested in that. I thought I would study guide dogs but when I kind of stuck a toe in there I realized I didn't know enough about dogs generally. So I just happened to have gotten two puppies and started going with them to a puppy kindergarten. Okay. What's a puppy kindergarten? A puppy kindergarten is what all new dog owners should do. Which is you go with a bunch of other people with puppies and the puppies get used to other dogs and getting handled and they learn some basic kinds of commands. So it's really a very good socializing thing for them. So both the owner and the dog go to kindergarten together? Yes. So it's good for everybody. Did you find any other sociologists doing this work when you first started getting into it? When I first got into it there were probably oh and most two other sociologists who were doing it. There were a lot of people from other fields principally psychology. Psychologists had been doing it for a while because much of the human-animal interaction stuff started with people who were interested in the therapeutic use of pets. Sure. There was, even at that time there were international meetings on human-animal interaction and things like that. But not many sociologists know. Since you've been getting into it, have you found that is this an up-and-coming thing? Are there more sociologists getting involved? More sociologists every day. Despite the fact that it continues to be somewhat controversial. A well-known organizational sociologist in one of the journals called The Interest in Animals A Boutique Issue within Sociology which irritated many of us, as you might imagine. Yes. But there is now, in the American Sociological Association a section on animals and society. Oh, interesting. I didn't realize that. There's a lot more interest. All the professional meetings have sessions. There are two major journals that have social scientists who do this kind of work. Give me an idea of what the topics are that get addressed in this kind of work. I mean, you mentioned guide dogs before. Imagine it's a little bit richer than one might think at first. There are people doing a variety of different things. Some people come at it out of an interest in social movements. So there are studies of the animal rights movement, for example. Other people are interested in interactions with wildlife or understanding of wildlife, how wildlife is constructed. So there are some people doing that kind of thing. It's a great book by a guy named Rick Scarce called Fishy Business about how wildlife scientists construct the salmon. People are doing work on the relationship between violence and violence to animals and violence to people. That's become a very hot topic these days. I actually have heard that cited in more popular places like I've heard it talked about on CNN and places like that. The kinds of things I'm interested in are much more traditionally sociological in a sense. I'm a symbolic interactionist, so I'm interested in how people operate face to face. And so what the kind of work I've been doing is how people develop relationships, social relationships with animals, particularly dogs. In your observations and in your reports, do you report on the dog behavior as well as the human behavior? Yeah, in that it's an interaction I'm interested in the behavior of both the major parties. I've done work with kind of everyday dog owners and I've done studies of, I did a study of a guide dog training program. And I spent over a year doing field work in a veterinary clinic. So I became very interested in veterinarians. Oh, that's an interesting thought. The sick role of the dog. Yeah, well many people are doing kind of occupational sociology around animals. Would that include two working dogs? The way dogs are used within occupations? Yes, absolutely. There are people doing things actually dogs that do real work like shepherds, dogs and things like that. Anthropologists have been doing that kind of thing for some time now. What do you think sociology brings to this study that would be different from anthropology or psychology? Well I think at least the kind of sociology that I'm interested in, the kind of sociology that I do brings knowledge about how interactions actually work at a face-to-face level. Clearly a part of that is kind of things that I'm interested in and some of the people that I work with are interested in is how companion animals come to be defined as virtual people. This category of person is socially applied, is socially defined. Take it from historically we've taken it from African Americans for example as slaves. It's given back to them. I'm interested in personhood and how that gets assigned in the context of everyday interaction with companion animals. I'm also interested in the concept of mind, how we come to understand what's going on in the head of other beings. There's a lot of how we understand what's going on with our human associates and not too much about how we understand what's going on with beings that can't talk to us using language at least. This whole idea of mind traditionally within sociology is something that's kind of this internal conversation. It's a linguistic activity. So mind becomes a really interesting type of thing to think about when you're thinking about beings that don't have a language. How do they think? It matters whether or not we guess right in the interaction. Are you looking for the accuracy of how well we understand dogs? Are you looking more at how human behavior is affected by what we believe we understand? I think in all social interaction we in our interactions with other human beings we make guesses more or less good guesses about what's going on with the other person and then we make decisions about how to behave based on that and that gets thrown back and forth. Sometimes when we have problems in interaction it's because that process fowls up in some way or another. We do the same thing we interact with the animals that share our lives. Sometimes we do it appropriately sometimes we don't. I think one of the problems in the relationship between people and their animals that live with them is that they don't have a very good understanding of how those animals how those kinds of beings think. What we have a tendency to do understandably is fall back on thinking about them as like small furry human beings that are not really too bright. I think that's generally a mistake and I think that really does a disservice to dogs and cats and these other animals that we live with because they aren't small human beings. They are in fact animals and if we understand them from that perspective then that relationship is going to go much better. But what that relationship like all relationships eventually comes down to is a very practical thing. What works over time and I live with Newfoundland I know them as individuals and I know how they are going to respond to the situations we find ourselves in together and I know how to deal with them on a day-to-day basis given the kinds of situations we're in because it works. I might be wrong about what's going on in their heads but when it really comes down to it, it's a practical kind of process. So you're looking more not so much to really know what's going on in the minds of either the animal or the person but rather you're looking at the interaction. And that interaction is interesting and worthwhile to look at because it makes sense. You know, I always think of interaction as a kind of dance and if in that dance of interaction we keep stepping on each other's feet then something's wrong. I giggle in part because that's my cat's way of communicating that she wants to be fed. She steps on my feet. That's what always is amazing to me when I talk to other sociologists about the work I do because they think a lot of people within sociology think that the kind of relationship people have with companion animals is very much like the relationship they have with their car, their computer. You know, you give it a name and you kind of think that it's being belligerent or acting right or like that but it's still just this thing. That really goes against the experience of most people in the society who actually live with animals and that is most people. People say, why do you study people's relationships with animals? Well, because animals live in over 60% of the households in the society, it makes a lot of sense for us to study it. I read on Yukon's website in a press release about your book in 1999 that you suggest that we live in an interspecies society and I thought that was a very astute observation that how we define society in human terms is not exactly accurate. I was also excited to find out that you were doing this work. I can recall in my own sociology classes especially in discussions about symbolic interactionism and micro level interactions and somebody always brings up in discussing how we construct the other about how people talk to their dogs or their cats and actually give them words. I have always heard this as an example of how we anticipate each other in social interactions and yet everybody just sort of blows it off two seconds later as a serious study and I would always think, gee it's cool to really take a look at that because I know as a pet owner and I've owned dogs and cats and even birds I give them all sorts of anthropomorphic qualities that I doubt very seriously they're seeing it exactly as I am but I talk for them all the time. In both my books I have one book called Regarding Animals with Arnold R. Luke and there's a chapter in that on what we call Speaking for Animals and that's an overt example of how people try to understand what's going on in the minds of their animals. They give voice to the experience of their animals and anyone who's a parent and has had an infant knows what that process is about. You mentioned that some people in sociology have called this a boutique. Is that what you're calling it? A boutique study? A boutique issue. I think that is to differentiate it from the department store issues that sociology deals with. Give me a sense of why you think these topics would be important to address. You've mentioned some of the more serious stuff like treatment of animals social movements aspect and everything but I have a sense that you've read about your work that you also see these more mundane topics as important to address and just tell me why I won't second guess why. I think mundane topics in general are important for sociologists to look at because they are what our social lives are about. Our social lives aren't about so much about class or about organizational structure or things like that. Our lives, our everyday experience is about the mundane stuff of everyday life and I think that those things are such commonplace issues for us as sociologists that they come to be denigrated. That we really shouldn't look at these things that are the stuff of everyday life because they're just so common and so familiar but it's those common and familiar things that are really the most interesting it seems to me and certainly if so many of us have relationships with animals then we ought to look at that. It's really criminal to denigrate looking at something that's so common. What have you learned about people in looking at their relationships to animals? I'm not necessarily asking for big theories here but just some general things you think you might not have learned if you hadn't looked at animals from their relationship to animals? One of the things that keeps coming up as I study people's relationships with animals is it really fits into the sociology of emotions and that is the emotional character of relationships people have with their companion animals and how they not only understand their animal companions as having their own emotional life but also their own emotional lives are wrapped up in that. One of the things that I became very interested in was when I was studying the veterinary clinic was interaction that goes around euthanasia and when people are forced to put down these animals that they truly love and I can remember I wrote a paper and I was delivering it at this conference in a very large crowd and I was reading some of the descriptions of people's experiences with euthanasia and I looked up at the audience and I saw all these people crying that's an indication of how incredibly important this topic is and this relationship is people are so emotionally bound to these creatures. There's several books on the market about what we can learn from dogs do you have anything to add to that? What can human beings learn from our dogs? That's an interesting question I think what I've learned from my dogs and I think what we as human beings can learn from dogs is to appreciate really basic things and to live in the present um my dogs my dogs love a good meal they get incredibly excited when it's time to go for a walk and I think what I've learned is that those basic things are really incredibly important and we should in a sense cherish those things in the here and now in the way animals do you're doing some research right now I think you mentioned to me yesterday and are going to be putting together a book soon you want to tell me a little bit about that? I'm continuing my interest in people that work with dogs so as I said I studied guide dog trainers and I studied people who live with guide dogs and I also studied veterinarians so I'm kind of moving from there to some field work with canine police officers in a training program in which they were training their dogs first met their dogs and then training their dogs so I'm kind of interested in very intense dependent relationships between people and dogs interesting and I guess in some ways because of the threat to life that goes on I imagine that there is a kind of bonding there that is a little deeper than just the everyday relationship with the pet it's incredibly deep the officers that I talked to said I spend more time with my dog than I spend with any other being more time with that dog than I spend with my family and the dog generally lives with them so I work with this with my dog I live with my dog the dog is my partner in a real sense is there anything else that you'd like to add no, I think that we're pretty much covered the field great very briefly well I very much appreciate your time it's good to talk to you yes, it was good meeting you you take care you too bye one of the pieces we have played on the show entitled eaten by sharks while composed, produced and largely performed by Carl Wilkerson does feature a barking dog the dog in question was a pecanese that supervised the Wilkerson household for over ten years in the 1980s and 90s he was named Puffin and he made his unwitting contribution to the realm of experimental music in 1987 for those of us who remember him Puffin was a remarkable little dog he displayed all the regal bearing normally associated with his breed while seeing to it himself that his willing subjects were well entertained those of us who loved him preferred to remember him as he was in life noisy and probably unaware of any lack of substantive authority he might convey in the process of being so here again and all his dogged enthusiasm is Puffin helping his grateful owner and establishing himself at long last as a work dog and eaten by sharks you're listening to First Person Plural on CFUV Victoria's Public Radio 101.9 FM 104.3 cable and on the internet cfub.uvig.ca giving sociology an edge giving sociology an edge giving sociology an edge patty and I have decided to do something a little creative now we're going to do the top 10 things that dogs have taught us each of us has a list of 10 items and we'll be sharing them with each other for the first time and with you patty would you like to get started sure how are we going to do this we're going to start with number 10 I was going to go 1 to 10 I was 10 to 1 so that's fine go ahead alright so my number 10 should we have the drum roll like with this face late night television anyway number 10 always make a straight line to the shade no matter where the street sidewalks are pre-designated paths are okay that's especially good on a summer day number 9 drink water to stay healthy number 8 a little bit of sleep during the day improves endurance afternoon naps number 7 eat enjoy eating enjoy the taste of food enjoy the smell of food number 6 too much time alone in the house is a bad thing fresh air is always good number 5 doesn't matter how you get your exercise just move around and enjoy it number 4 the simplest toys are the best number 3 play as hard as you work in fact there should be no difference between playing and working number 2 it is important to protect the little ones dogs are very good at that yes they are that dogs have taught me is to enjoy each and every good thing in life with all the gusto you can even if you don't know what gusto is or you don't know what it is you're enjoying alright here are my top 10 things I went 1-10 because I'm old fashioned I've got that ordinal paradigm in my mind and I can't do anything about it now it's just too late that's a proprietary word that word does not belong to us number 1 take advantage of the natural cover that matches up with your number 10 coincidentally number 2 food first number 3 cleanliness is next to impossible number 4 don't go to sleep so that's in contrast to your nap one you can't go to sleep if anybody is around if something is happening it's not sleep time that's right if things are happening and you're not involved you must wake up immediately figure out what's going on number 5 play favorites number 6 don't be ashamed to take a toy to bed number 7 drive through restaurants are the pinnacle of human achievement rational behind this being that they combine hanging your head out the door automobile trips food irrevocably number 8 cats are like dogs only they're cats which I think sums up the relationship between cats and dogs well enough number 9 the proper place to sit for meals is at the table something that we all forget a little too often in this tv oriented world of course having the radio on during dinner is optimal I think and lunch for that matter number 10 don't hide your love not even for a moment yeah it wasn't hard coming up with the top 10 list at all if you could add a number 11 what would it be I don't know I like that last one that you said about love dogs are very good at loving unconditionally even when they play favorites they still will not hold much against you it takes a lot to get a dog mad at you for a long time I think that's pretty cool I would add if I had an 11th it would be it is not necessarily relevant if the other dog is bigger yeah that's true we had a picnese once who could chase rottweilers down the street quite well and did so with a little more frequency than perhaps was safe common sense would have dictated very brave little dog but as stupid as a stone he had his moments but they were momentary I've often wonder what dogs learn from us I feel like the socialization process works both ways that they teach us we teach them and there's a sort of symbiosis that's achieved I know that because the relationship between people and dogs has got such a long history and I mean we're talking really long like tens of thousands of years I read somewhere that they have the same diseases the species are so connected to each other and this is not true of cats as much as it is of dogs that because we hang out the same bugs attack us in the same ways and we can actually share diseases because of that if you look at it on a species level it's somewhat of a symbiotic relationship between the species but it also has become so interconnected that we actually attract the same germs and have fight off the same diseases and so forth so and that doesn't happen often unless species live very much in close proximity with each other it might help here for the sake of being overly intellectual if we define what we meant by interaction I would say that the work dogs interact the most measurably with humans simply because they obey commands sure it's a lot more palpable than it is with one that's meant to be a house pet I think it's an interaction when the dog refuses to do what you say and refuses to go where you want them to go so all of them interact but yeah you're talking about measurability not defining interaction should measurability be the criteria and I guess that sounds like an idiotic question but I feel like there are things that cropped up in my relationships with dogs that although not measurable were quite palpable and I could rely upon them which is I think is another test of rigor it's interesting in the interview Clint pointed out that a lot of people a lot of people when they're dealing with their animals and this certainly includes dogs will think of them I think he used the words furry little human beings and and not understand sort of dogdom if you will and I've seen trainers talk about this on television before about how there are certain breeds that are better for certain tasks and that's because they have bred into them certain instinctual ways of dealing with things for instance hurting dogs are not very good to have in the house around kids because they tend to want to hurt the kids they start deciding which side of the room the child should be on yeah and this doesn't always go over well with the kid and as such then you kind of have a problem because the dog is trained to growl and snap well the dog is bred I should say to growl and snap and to essentially be what we would interpret as a little bit mean in order to get you to do what it thinks that you should do sure and part of that is actual threat and part of it is symbolic I got plague growls out of my dogs all the time when we were in the middle of wrestling so why have I covered object and they would growl at me and I could tell the difference between when they were kidding and when they were serious but little kids can't always tell the difference sure I would guess that a kid can't but dogs understand the difference between play and serious I would love to subject that to some sort of empirical verification I would love to probably somebody has somewhere they do have particular behaviors that are dog behaviors that are not that we interpret through human filters that are understandable if you understand the dogs animals understand a certain number of words they're not much on speaking actually I read 200 that the average dog has a vocabulary understands a vocabulary of around 200 words that's incredible so they probably are understanding a little more than we realize I even got a couple words of French on my dogs they weren't crazy about them but they learned them the cat knows the petit chat though petit chat I got I see a toah across and I got fam tabush across an L-O-Z he knew he was going for a walk an L-O-Z yeah we have a friend who said that he's thinking about only speaking German to his cat when he gets her I think that's more for the benefit of our friend than of his cat it's a way of practicing his German yes but on the other hand I think it brings up the fact that animals don't care whether you're talking to them in English or German or French they get the point based upon the way you interact with them or they seem to get the point anyway it's hard to tell oh I have a funny dog story okay I have to include this I got Roger'd on an April Fool's Day and this is a dog radio story too how about that better I was listening to national public radio on April Fool's Day a few years back and they were interviewing several people who supposedly were claiming that they had cracked the dog code and that they actually had figured out what different dog barks meant and had created a computer program that could listen to the dog barks translated into English and I was like holy cow I actually bought this for about 10 minutes I can't believe I was so fooled it suddenly occurred to me about 10 minutes into the conversation what day it was and that I was in fact having my proverbial leg pulled but in the meantime they interviewed linguist Deborah Tannen who went into this very elaborate theory that sounded so lucid about how dog language structure had been tapped into and there was an understanding of what each kind of bark meant and how barks were barking was coupled with gesturing and so forth and she just sounded so legitimate and of course I recognized the name and the scholar on top of that and so I'm just sitting there going oh isn't this funny this is so great but when the translation and then they would show that they would do this guy with a translation right and you could hear the dog barking and then you could hear the computer talking in the computer lingo voice saying what the dog had just said what did the computer voice say did they want to take over the world and beat up all the cats or something like that at first it was believable because the computer voice was saying things like go outside go outside and then I got suspicious that's what tipped me off I was like right the dog is like let's go to the ice cream store I was like I don't think so I saw a Gary Larson cartoon one time the guy who drew the far side where this guy had invented a helmet that when he wore it allowed him to understand what dogs were saying so he put it on but all they were saying was hey hey hey hey hey I know there were times when my dogs looked at me there was this impression that said you know what I get bigger than you I'm going to eat you I just want you to keep that in mind in the weeks ahead none of them ever got bigger than me though when I grow up you better watch out you put me in the kennel I'm going to put you in the home that's fair now we're doing something that is really interesting and giving words to the dog because people do that all the time anthropomorphizing how are you today and then they answer and they made up boys I've had entire conversations with cats and dogs in which I'm doing both voices and there's kind of ventriloquism going on I wouldn't admit that to anyone else if I were you I just amended it on the radio what can I tell you it makes you wonder how much we do that with human beings how much our interaction is just in our head we think that we know what we're saying and we think that they know they think the same thing that we think but it may not be true but they interact bottom line they try to pick up on our cues even cats who try to give the impression they don't especially care what we think try to pick up on our cues they watch us until we watch them back and then they turn away and try to act casual but that's communication and that's interaction except our current cat she's very good at staring she can make you feel guilty with one look I'd like to make one modification on your list you said on point number four the simplest toys what was it again? the simplest toys are the best destroy with impunity are the best that's probably more dog like possibly but dogs like balls they like to tear them apart give them a soft rub one time and see how long it lasts it'll be gone in a day it may be a compulsion to them to destroy things pull the flesh from the bone kind of instinct I remember one of my dogs had this little miniature basketball seven inches in diameter that we gave to him and he tried like crazy to get his teeth into it he'd run it around the hell and finally just give up and throw his head back and bark in frustration just bark his head off it drove him crazy never quite did get the hang of it well I was interested to find out that somebody had done rigorous work on this topic the list is growing too there's apparently more scholars who are going to be looking into this I think that it's an important thing because it really does teach us we're kind of making a silly list here in some ways and of course there's all kinds of books out there on the market now that the hundred things that my dog taught me or the posters that I've seen too but it seems to me that that the illusion that we live somewhere that is away from nature is sort of reinforced by addressing sociology as if the only interactions that we have are between human beings the truth of the matter is we live with animals we live on a planet and we interact with animals all the time I mean it would be interesting to do the sociology of bugs for instance because they're everywhere and they're organized we certainly there's a lot of warfare talk around bugs but the bottom line I guess is that nature interacts with people and if you're interested in the facts you have to look at that some of the nature even gets into your house eats all your food tears up your newspaper, sleeps on your bed and brings toys with him when he comes before we go today we'd like to wish Dave Thomas in Tampa, Florida a happy 35th birthday when you get here we will celebrate we'd like to thank the Dogs of Dallas Road for their help with today's show Princess and Alexis Great Danes, Morgan, Dexter Tash and Brandon today's show is dedicated to the wonderful pets and animals that have made our lives rich those who are no longer with us Otto, Charlie Ketchup, Kitty Wurs George, Skippy Ginger Rover the Cat Baby, Joey Tabitha and Tyler Dylan Puffin, Mischief and Bubba those that we never named and Billy Bob who is far away in North Carolina and of course our most special friend of all Anna Vem who continues to make our lives sweeter every day and lets us live in her house join us here next week at noon on CFUV you have been listening to First Person Plural on CFUV 101.9 FM in Victoria British Columbia simulcasted on 104.3 cable and cfuv.uvic.ca First Person Plural is produced weekly by Dr. Patty Thomas and Carl Wilkerson All music for First Person Plural is composed, performed and produced by Carl Wilkerson For more information about First Person Plural or Patty Thomas and Carl Wilkerson visit our website culturalconstructioncompany.com