 Hey everybody, tonight we're debating whether or not there is evidence for ghosts and we are starting right now with troubling tribunes opening statement thanks so much for being with us troubling tribune the floor is all yours absolutely thanks for having me I just like to say that as far as the this debate topic goes I'm very very excited for it I feel like I had a pretty easy one because I do feel that most people do believe in ghosts but I'm gonna try not to rely on that too much as far as proving they exist I'm going to go ahead and keep it short sweet right to the point let's go ahead and establish a basic premise a definition if you will I'm going to go ahead and have spirit defined as an entity that exists mostly outside of the obvious senses of human perception I don't think there's any disagreement on that so let me just go ahead and go on I'll start with the basics with the spirit most people believe that spirits are the souls of those who have passed on or residual emotion energy electrostatic or electromagnetic I'm honestly not even going to attempt to go into each of those individual things because when you look at all the research that's being done it seems that all of these things are results of spiritual activity and maybe not necessarily the spirit themselves but I digress as far as establishing establishing that premise that humans do in fact have a soul or some sort of consciousness that exists outside of the mind I think that we only need to look as far as the CIA manuals on remote viewing and project gateway which I do have some links in here that we can go over I'm trying not to screen share too much for video quality but if you look at the research that was done by our very own government you'll see that we have known for quite some time that we can extend our human perception outside of our body on top of that you have countless anecdotal evidence on this as well as just about every single religion and belief in the entire world has some sort of belief in the existence of the soul of spirits and of all kinds of entity of that matter so as far as to narrow down even further we do see a spirit seem to resemble humans now you can again debate whether they are actually from humans or not all of you want I really want to take a look at the fact that they do merely exist in the phenomenon so let me go ahead and try to pull up some of the some of the basic evidence this website that I have pulled up is simply the best ghost pictures ever taken like about a harm the reason why these are the best is that a lot of these have actually been scrutinized by paranormal and by just regular investigators to test their authenticity and this website does clarify when they have a picture that has been debunked but the picture is in here that the slamer hadn't scrutinized and they seem to pass the test so this first picture was taken back in the back in the I'll just go ahead and read it here for you guys portrait of the brown lady is the arguably the most famous and well regarded ghost photograph ever taken the ghost is thought to be the lady Dorothy of Townsend wife of Charles they obviously build a lot around the story England in the early 1700s it was rumored that Dorothy and her marriage you go on here I really want to get to this it's we're in the picture way okay early 1800s seen again standing 1835 by calling love just who's visiting sorry again sorry I'm looking for when the famous photo was taken this famous photo there we go was taken in September of 1936 by captain Provan and injury shira the two photographs were assigned to the country life magazine and it basically goes through the account of the story the interesting thing is about this is when you actually zoom in let me see if I can even do that here did that zoom in for you guys perfect so if you're looking at the staircase here you'll see there's an obvious apparition it is pretty hard to make out a sort of face but you can see that there's clearly something there humanoid and this was in a time when you know this was before cell phones before it was very easy to edit photographs the ways that photographs were typically altered are pretty easy to detect and again all of these photos I'm about to go through have actually been scrutinized so let me go ahead and move on down here this one's probably my favorite this one Lord Combermere and the reason why this is my favorite is because you can actually see a face with this picture here this was taken in 1891 so it's actually an even older photograph by sebel corbet it is believed of course that the man sitting in the chair was the previous lord of the castle um let me go down here let me see if I can get into where they actually there's not too much on this one somebody said that is where they instigated it this was well and the main thing I want to point out with these photographs is that the spirits or the entities in question definitely appear to be human or humanoid or they were once human this one was taken in 1919 a lot of these ghost photographs were taken in the early 1900s the story of this was that this man was actually killed by a propeller a few days prior so and that's the other interesting thing about this is that if you know when we're talking about random defects and light effects it's one thing to say the pictures are fake which of course I'd like to see some evidence if that is the claim but when we're talking about if they're you know possibly just mess ups with the camera I mean we're talking about very very clear images in some cases here so that kind of takes that out of the equation next I'd like to move on to the actual video portion I know this is kind of like the the main thing that people wanted to see because you can argue spirits philosophically all day long people want to see actual physical evidence so let me go ahead and try to pull this up for you guys how is that were you guys able to catch that I think it must have been something to see yeah it looks like I could see that it looks like there's a shadow in the back so that and then it comes to this weird uh clip of a man in a woman's bedroom I don't know what's going on right so I'm about to play this clip um this clip was probably one of the most uh one of the most obvious hauntings um opponents will say that they're moving that there can be moving these things with strings but if that is the case um notice how the people in the video aren't dancing around the strings gotcha we're about at that opening time length as it's been about 15 minutes this might be a good chance to kick it over to Jen for her opening as well all right so you noticed my time was probably coming up here soon um you got it well we are going to switch it over to Jen for opening as well thanks so much troubling Tribune for that opening Jen thanks so much for being with us the floor is all yours for your opening as well and switching over to the screen share we're ready for you right now we can't hear you just in case you're already speaking I'm mute there thanks for having me on modern day debate James great to be here thanks for participating in the debate troubling Tribune nice to meet you looking forward to the talk I'm going to proceed into my slideshow is there evidence for ghosts I will be taking these skeptical position who am I what's the history of ghosts and the etymology of the word ghost then I'll speculate as to the evidentiary burden for establishing a ghost hi nice to meet you those you haven't met yet I'm Jen Sharif I have a bsc honors in physics math from Ottawa U I have over seven years of experience working in audio video analysis lab 10 years experience as a classroom stenographer and a lifelong passion for consciousness studies logic persuasion and teaching so without further ado I will jump on into the history of the term ghosts actually quite fascinating to see how it ties in going on 2000 years of history so to get into the conversation we have to look at the German history of the term which it derives from Geist which actually has several connected terms so they're not exactly equivalent because language is subject to evolution so the concept of a ghost has interesting history that goes back to pre-christian Germanic and Saxon folklore Germanic tribes had a rich folklore of associated stories although the precise meaning of the term is uncertain due to cultural evolution today anthropologists under say ghost stories is having arisen as a method to instill morals and children and help understand unexplainable phenomena such as with Grimm's fairy tales the enduring salience of ghost stories can be seen all the way till today in halloween custom of children collecting candies from neighbors with the thinly veiled thread of trick-or-treat and the super popular horror genre but that's only half the story Christian history of ghosts is if not more important than just as interesting to convert German tribes the bible translated the common German idea of Geist into the central Christian tenet of the holy spirit in 1611 the king james bible uses the english holy ghost to refer to the holy spirit and by 1800 with the assimilation of latin into english and german most bibles return to the expression of holy spirit so we see this trinitarian concept is centrally important in the history of ghosts so i thought i'd make this diagram and i'm sorry if it's not quite clear but we have two very similar diagrams one references that as a holy ghost the other is the holy spirit you can see there's a slightly different artistic style so that's super interesting i'm not really doing this topic justice uh my streaming partner duvin and i just thought it would be interesting to go into the history of it because we had a chance to have this debate that i think is pretty unusual chance i i tried to actually find other debates to like compare the arguments and what i should use for strategy and i really couldn't find much so that that was i guess good to have the door be so open anyway yada yada yada the rise of scientific materialism inside uh rationalism led to the decline of christian culture in the west and what was previously interpreted as spiritual phenomena is now understood to be better explained by science as such ghosts are believed to be scientific so here's my argument against ghosts or basically burden shifting attempt if we're looking for empirical evidence of ghosts it has to be reliable and reliability at least as we understand it necessitates a measurement device and what we understand as measurement devices are calibrated using a materialist ontology okay well what's that well you're i mean those you already know we probably would not like want to actually even ask that question but it really boils down to math glants the interpretation of measurements by kind of presuming some type of local realism aka yeah it's actually reasonable to assume that numbers are appropriate things to associate with measurements next argument next part of the argument materialist ontology concludes an incidental observation of paranormal events so even though you could argue my ideology of panpsychism in some sense predicts ghosts i don't think it's possible definitely to get empirical evidence of ghosts for something along the same lines as why you probably can't get empirical evidence for something like ether or something like a circle because it's not of the class of things that empirical evidence exists for so i guess i don't believe my poet will be able to meet the evidentiary threshold this way the balance of probabilities the direction of go so i mean unfortunately i don't think that that's anywhere near having happened in the intro i just thought i was unfortunately couldn't you watch part of the video because it was happening like it was so shaky that i was like getting motion sickness so i had to look away like if it was me presenting some type of argument for ghosts i'd be kind of trying to like put sequential frames to say like look this is really the best part of the video to show the evidence so i didn't see that i saw you know a guy and a girl and who knows if they're just acting out to get attention i mean god forbid i don't think they are but i want to give them the benefit of the doubt but that's just not in line with a tradition of skepticism so what's this turning on evidence evidence wise i usually like to lead with the strongest piece of evidence that i not even sure what that would be but i'm hoping that during the open conversation we get a chance to go into that i don't know how much time i've been talking here for jame so i've been talking for two minutes okay but i so i've been talking for eight minutes because if i've i just want to know if i can stop wrap it up soon because this was about as much as i plan awesome you got it and with that we can go right into it you got it we'll jump right into open dialogue so thanks very much for your questions folks if you happen to have any questions you can feel free to fire them into the old live chat if you tag me with at modern day debate that's one way to submit a question otherwise you can also submit a question via super chat as those are at the top of the list in terms of the ones we read through first with that thank you very much and with that the floor is all yours all righty um so just to kind of address it just it's uh it's so loud on your mic if you're able to just again maybe just pull it away from your face a little bit just because it kind of tops out i can't get it any further away that should do the trick right there thank you awesome well i appreciate you guys having me on i do apologize once again for my poor quality i had to make some last minute changes my main platform is tiktok so most of the stuff that i do is on my phone i'm just using the chromebook here so i appreciate you all bearing with me with that being said to go into some of the arguments that jen presented now i would actually agree with her as far as the empirical putting an actual number to it i wouldn't say it's impossible but i would say that modern technology probably isn't quite there yet now we can experience some predictable how would you call it a predictable model if you will in that when we experience or when we expect a place to be haunted or to have paranormal activity when we take certain equipment like temperature readers uh ems readers um cameras with multiple spectrums you'll see that we do come up um with quite a bit of evidence for their existence um now i would remind everybody that existing is actually a pretty loose term regardless of if we would like to argue that spirits exist in physical reality or in the mind of the individual or mass hysteria if you will um because of the definitions you can't argue that they exist because it exists inside the mind um but i digress when you're able to capture photographs videos and mind you i wasn't even able to go into all of the evidence that i had but if you do a simple google search you'll see there's hundreds if not thousands of videos and photographic evidence and sure i'm sure some of them are faked for attention but to go in there in blanket term and say that every single one has to be fake because some of them are fake is absolutely fallacious and furthermore to say that because right now currently we can't empirically provide data and measurements to really understand what a spirit is that in no way takes away from the fact that they do exist a prime example of something like this would be simple concepts like um the idea of yesterday i believe we've went into this a little bit yesterday uh gen but we all know we have all experienced that yesterday did in fact occur it does indeed exist however if you were to uh devise a scientific experiment with a movable variable um get it peer reviewed and all these hoops that require something to be empirical and scientific um you'll find that you would not be able to do that and there are several things like that so i actually do agree that as of right now empirically it cannot be said scientifically but again um science is pre-medicated on materialism and that everything actually can be physically touched and physically measured and it's very possible that not everything is like that so possibly we could be talking about some kind of non physical evidence and that's why i was trying to define non i would define non physical just so i know what you're well you said we're not going to necessarily get physical evidence so definition we're looking for non physical evidence i actually accept that some non physical evidence could potentially be valid so actually i think there was a bit of a misunderstanding i i said in pure guas in um like measurable we can put a number to it and start messing with the variables of it to really test the cause and effect relationship um again i was merely saying that we can't do that with spirits but that is not to say that there is not physical evidence of them existing i think um i think that uh the video and photographic evidence presented is some physical evidence i guess i would be interested to know which part of it would be physical evidence like i looked up some videos and i had they had a a machine that was i guess they were asking it questions and it was putting a little blip on the screen right not even necessarily i mean you can we can refer to that you know they do pick up differences in electromagnetic fields and some of them though of course are completely fake you know i was very careful about not mentioning a certain ghost tracking apps and whatnot because it is very possible that they can just go into your phone ai and have it generate a conversation with you to make you think that you're conversating with the spirit um but what i do think is cool is when we have scenarios where we have different types of equipment for example a temperature reader that's picking up a dip in temperature at the same time as an electromagnetic um at EMS going off at the same time as something weird and unexplainable happening does that make sense sure i guess we might differ as to a definition of what that means something unusual because people acting weird for attention to me that's pretty normal and that's basically what i expect with my whole skepticism vibe but i agree with you with what you said about existence being hard to define and that mental existence is not actually an argument against existence so i guess we could say that even if we're going to give the benefit of the doubt to the ghost detectors it could actually just be your own mind triggering it because what if that detectors registering the electromagnetic from your thought process and you're thinking maybe it'll do it and it just does it so that's i'm not saying that that's what's happening but theoretically there's no way to that's the that mentalism problem is that the origin of the causal breach so to speak or the relationship is not something that you can isolate due to all of the measurements being resulting from a measurement device that you're fundamentally making assumptions about the measurement device and it sounds like you've made some assumptions about the recording devices for these ghosts that maybe aren't justified because this is actually the field i used to work in like interpreting video evidence and you have to be so careful with just stuff like chain of custody and i'm not saying they're all artifacting effects but like in your introduction what you were scrolling through that article it did seem like one of them the kernel it kind of seemed like it was a mirror effect almost like a hologram so i would ask you how um and i might just be completely ignorant on that particular subject but i would ask you how um exactly they would have faked that back in the 1800s how can you fake it lens effect well you just have to generate a hologram using lenses so you can look that up in an optics textbook from physics it's something that is hard to do and it doesn't always work but if you set up a series of correct lenses correctly arrayed lenses you can generate a hologram so basically i'm sorry i just want to make sure i understand so basically what you're saying is that using nothing more than 1800s equipment uh you can arrange the glass or mirror in a certain way that makes it appear that there's a a person conceivably i'm not saying that that's what happened i'm saying that let's say i'm trying to steal man that position i would be coming with a barrage of evidence to make it that in every direction you turn there was some new evidence piece of evidence coming like coming in like you know the some incredibly powerful weapon whereas this is just like i have to strain just to see what the evidence even is and it's all shaky and it's not the original source it's somebody somebody making a video with the original source that's all shaky and so that tells me well it sounds it's a little bit it comes across as obscurantism and if you're trying to make a point don't you kind of want to be super clear as to what the point it is that you're actually saying and remove that emotional element that's where i would say it doesn't meet that burden even the lowest evidentiary burden which i don't know if you want to talk about that uh what it means for something to exist balance probabilities at all but i don't even think it rises to that point but right back i mean i definitely would disagree with you on that point um simply because or at least the balance of the probabilities simply because um we're talking about something that 80 percent of americans claim to have personally experienced um and i know that you could make the argument for mass hysteria but again i don't think that it matters i'm not making uh the assertion the cause specifically as to what causes the spirit spiritual phenomena or what we perceive as a spiritual phenomena i don't think that that matters in the least bit um but again we're talking about something that most people have experienced um i think it was i'm trying to remember the exact statistics i can't pull up anything anymore because i don't want it to ruin the quality um but it was a majority of people um have reported some sort of experience and uh slightly smaller uh you probably have them up for me that you could tell me um but a smaller percentage of people actually have something that has personally happened um now as far as establishing the premise for a spirit could be the past on soul of another person we really only again need to look at the fact that the our own government has actually studied out of body phenomena and has determined that it is a thing it is possible um and so really we just need to make the extra step that once the body dies that's still possible and with as much um as much anecdotal evidence as there is on near-death experience and what happens with that and their striking similarities i think that it's a pretty safe bet well in a lot of ways i agree but i don't know how a near-death experience can you talk a little more about how we go from near-death experience to sure go so yeah absolutely so a ghost essentially is a person existing outside of their body right so in near-death experience i'm actually not sure if i would accept that definition i think it goes a little bit farther than that um but sure that's acceptable that's a definition right acceptable definition sure um and again i know that i'm kind of going back and forth because i like you can go either way with it it can be something that we're mentally generating um does that mean if somebody like sorry to interrupt you but like does that mean hypothetically if somebody does astral projection that they're a ghost if they're leaving their body to do astral projection are they a ghost in that time or do you have does your body have to die before you're a ghost i think that's a matter of opinion right um but i really i think that the effects are exactly the same i think that you can act and i know that i'm kind of going off in wooville here because um you know we're talking about the stuff that i couldn't exactly present the evidence to you guys for but astral projection is a real thing according to the united states government um you can actually like leave your body um by you know doing conscious exercise exercises and uh with that being said um it's actually something that i personally experienced as well and i never want to rely on personal you know experience for my evidence but it's just a fact of the matter um so with that being said um you asked you know would that be the same thing astral projection and a ghost and i would say it is i would say that there would basically be no difference i guess i would chalk up something like astral projection to a non localized consciousness effect whereas a ghost is sort of more than that it's almost like you need a haunting for there to be a ghost but it's okay if i would say i would say it seems like we're it seems like a bit of a shifting of the burden of proof so we're not establishing ghosts anymore we're establishing non-local consciousness and maybe that is somehow connected to ghosts but it's still not really clear well let me ask you and what would be the difference between effectively a ghost and non-local perception well my understanding in my framework i don't really have a concept of a ghost so so it could effectively be that well i mean what you said before about it doesn't matter if it's mass hysteria because if people believe it then it's true it just seems like by that logic harry potter would also exist um in the figments of the mind right we're we're actually part of this debate is narrowing it down again back to like the physical right because existing and that's why i said it makes no point to argue if they exist or not because no matter which definition you use they do exist the fact that we think about them means that they exist so it would be more productive to talk about do they physically exist and what i mean by that is do they cause physical um do they cause physical things to happen right they themselves may not be physical but they can cause physical things to happen and that's good enough for the purposes of this debate um with the again if you look into non-local perception and all that stuff you can start to pinpoint like what might be causing this phenomenon but again i really don't think it matters the fact is that there is phenomena that we experience and that people experience in the real world that doesn't fit the regular every day and there is always some i won't say always but a lot of times there is some really really crazy coincidences that happen with this sort of stuff um for example on your the little random devices that give the words or the light noise sometimes they'll even say the name of a dead person or a person who has passed in that area which seems to me that if it was just something random that it wouldn't that wouldn't happen very often if ever you would have to push it into the well that has to be faked and if you're going to say that it's faked you're gonna have to provide evidence that it is um otherwise the level of evidence that i'm presenting should be enough for anybody who you know at least believes in the ball or earth to be able to accept it right no i think you can derive ball earth using very uh simple mechanical principles that are easy to validate physically almost conclusively unless you're going to take a an extreme skepticism position so i say that that's definitely disanalogous and i'm still struggling to we'll have to disagree on on that well we don't want to turn it into a flat earth debate different different topic for sure it usually when i debate i like things to follow from something fundamental and that's why i use panpsychist approach so everything is a consciousness effect so the ghost stuff to me i i haven't looked at all the cases i'm not close to the possibility i think it's very unlikely that it could be validated to be what it is people are thinking that it is because of stuff like ghost stories and all that well jen i would ask you just to kind of see where we do have a little bit of common ground in the debate would you agree that non-local perception is a thing definitely perception is actually the process of localization so depending on your definition you know it's it brings localization are we able to perceive things that are outside of our immediate um perceivable surroundings yeah okay um the surroundings don't exist unless we perceive them well i understand that i guess what i'm getting at is astral projection let me get just super specific with it do you think astral projection is a thing there's no reason it would be precluded on a mechanical basis what it entails again falls into the realm of well where is this supposed exchange of energy actually happening because we have this mind dependence problem and if we're honest we can't just sort of pretend it's not there but yeah sure there's what do you mean by the mind dependence problem that we can never tell where the origin of an effect is if it's a subjective thing or if it's object if it's outside of us or inside of us because we don't know essentially where to model a boundary between ourselves and externality fair enough so um that's basically i'm not really sure how to tie this back because i kind of lost the thread of what we were talking about to can we just yeah basically what what i'm getting at is that if we can agree and um it kind of went a little bit in a circle but i think we do agree that non-local perception is a thing meaning that some people are able to do certain mental exercises to where they can pull information that otherwise wouldn't be readily available to them what are you with so far right exactly it's not that the information doesn't exist it's just that it doesn't exist to them locally like let's say you have a man in a room a man in a closed off room if he has this ability he will be able to basically meditate and pick up what's happening on the outside of the building even though there's no windows sure um that's not that's allowable but again the burden of proof for any type of paranormal perception the burden of proof is on the claimant and that's essentially my position that i still feel pretty comfortable with it i don't see that this burden of proof is anywhere near being established and the fact of the matter is quantum mechanically is that all information is rendered non locally so there's information on my screen and it gets rendered in this case there doesn't exist until it's rendered and the question is is how far does rendering have to be uh expanding to before it's considered non-local and even that you're going to find where's the boundary before it's non-local that's why i think your definition of ghost is maybe problematic because it sort of seems like you're equating it to just any non-standard conscious experience like i think you use an example of somebody knowing something happening outside of a wall uh that was without actually directly perceiving it yeah that's a super simplified version but there are people who claim to have been able to see things clear across the country again if you look into the cia documents for it which again i can post the links for i didn't bring them up because of all the technical issues but um this actually has been studied in depth it is known that we can perceive things for one reason or another outside of our body as if all the information just exists everywhere and we can just kind of tap into it so that's one way that you can look at it my worldview and school of thought is kind of the opposite is that we go to it it exists and we can leave our body to go to it and if for people who have astral projected this is an obvious very very obvious fact um it's not something that we can chop up to is just a figment of the mind simply because we're actually able to pull very real tangible information that is not readily available and my point is very very simple if we can exist outside of our body which is what astral projection is then that is what a ghost is and that's as simple as that whether your body is alive or dead means absolutely no difference you can try to say well because the body's dead that means that that effect is no longer possible and unfortunately you've never verified that um this is something that again most people do not the astral projection spirits everybody not everybody most people do experience some form of spiritual phenomena a lot of people experience a very direct uh unexplainable phenomena with humanoids sometimes people that they know and again you can try to say that it's mass hysteria but there is physical photographic and video evidence and then basically your only rebuttal would have to be not uh without actually presenting evidence that you know this stuff is actually fake what evidence would falsify those that evidence that was presented the technique revealed of how they faked it well that's presuming a very unrealistic burden of evidence i don't see how anyone could ever do that you could at best speculate or so such types of speculation would likely be perceived as irresponsible as there's no basis for the claim which is the same argument it's the same argument against the ghosts in the first place there's no basis for the claim we're not talking anything near science because science was sort of the presupposition of a reasonable inquiry into a model is that there's some type of meta and analytical aggregate is a long-term pattern that can be established to have some type of bearing we don't know what it is so just come back to what we're talking about with physical things and measuring them in space and what you're talking about astral projection and what that even means coming back to this mind problem it's not as hard as it sounds but you've got to think about it as space is not actually the cause of anything so if you're thinking of things that's happening in space then you've misunderstood the causal emergent structure because space is actually doesn't have causal powers neither is this time it's a very common misconception obviously feels like time is something that is flowing and therefore shaping something by its flow and that's where again this ontology of space measurement necessity precludes us really pointing to what is even being said what's the claim now so it started with well there's evidence for ghosts and now it's you have to disprove this incredibly this set of different claims that individually the claims are weak a bunch of weak claims establishes something but it doesn't establish what it doesn't establish the weak claim it establishes more likely some there is some reasonable motive to make this weak claim that isn't the weak claim itself the problem that I find is that is that with this particular subject it seems to be a continuous cycle of us unfortunately because the way that it starts off is is that people report experiencing a thing then people say okay evidence of said thing people start coming forward with photos and videos then oh well those photos and videos are fake or messed up and then we go from okay well we also have this equipment that seems to detect in haunted places mind you now there is things that we know that can set them off but those variables are limited and so now we're bringing in this other measuring devices to measure dips in temperature electromagnetic fields and the like and we're still picking up things as we expected but now it's oh well that has to be some other cause I am pretty sure that you would have to have a ghost slap you in the face for you to be like okay ghosts are probably real but again I completely concede the idea that the ghosts themselves is something that is measurable and scientifically meaning taking a variable isolating the phenomena and adjusting the variable to figure out the cause of it at this point in time I have to concede I don't think there's any way that we could do that with spirits however one thing that we have done that with is non-local perception and astral projection the only thing that we have not done is tested basically somebody's consciousness as they died and had a way to actually communicate with that person after they had passed on that's basically the one level of test that we haven't been able to do but all the other pieces of the puzzler there well actually we still have to overcome the hurdle of the materialist ontology because there's a presupposition that consciousness comes from the brain and essentially doesn't have any tangible existence outside of the brain so it's like this magical brain where these waves of consciousness are popping out of in space when actually that's not how it's happening because space is the thing that's rendered during the observation process so there's this non-understanding of the interference problem or the measurement problem that is even if we get better even if we get really really good recording equipment it's not calibrated to observe because it's not calibrated to observe what would validate a ghost because we don't have a definition of consciousness that's accurate so I think that's where we need to start if we want to go on potentially validating something like ghosts but I'm still going to be skeptical like even if this advanced machine that is right at his pants like his ghost detecting machine and we're out there ghostbusters with a box in five years like I'll still be the skeptical one but I'll I'm open to the to doing the experiment very much appreciate the conversation absolutely I love the skeptic position it's always so easy oh my goodness um yeah I think it's this might be an opportunity we did put a poll in the chat asking people what sub topics they would most enjoy hearing you guys talk about the most requested one was as one of those videos for example had a ghost that pushed people against the wall and then pulled the sheet off of the bed is the question is if no mass if the ghosts don't have mass how could they touch stuff I think this is kind of touched on earlier no pun intended but want to give you a chance to talk on that if you'd like to clarify any more on how if ghosts don't have mass they can interact with physical objects was that for me yes yeah so I actually again I'm not claiming the uh whether the ghosts had mass or not I think that they do have uh actually I don't even think I said anything about their mass I was saying that there is physical evidence of them and the physical evidence who you're absolutely right would be the idea they can touch things with things push things pull things um that is the physical evidence that I'm talking about it's kind of like the wind you know the wind is something that is real it exists we feel the effects from it but you can't see it you got it you're welcome to add anything on that in terms of if you guys want to talk about it for a few minutes any thoughts Jen well I'm I'm not too sure otherwise we can jump into that the other topics that were most requested in terms of the subtopics that we pulled the chat on were why would ghosts in particular haunt houses in other words like why isn't it people per se like people that were important to them in their lies why wouldn't they kind of haunt or follow them around what's the attachment to houses that's so common rather than other objects or people or things I'm glad you asked that so the reason why people believe that that is the case is because there actually is a profit motive it's one of the huge hurdles that I had to overcome on my side of the debate is that people do utilize this sort of stuff for profit and therefore some things do get faked and more importantly tourist sites get created so that revenue can be generated so everybody always hears about the haunted houses because it's good marketing they actually pay people who know how to put this stuff out there to get attention and so people learn about it but when you actually look into the anecdotal evidence and people's personal experience you'll actually see that most people that I know that have been haunted is not with just a single house it's actually something that does follow them but I think that it all has to do with will and strong emotion a lot of people on my side of the aisle do miss the idea of will but when you do study remote viewing and astral projection you realize that that's a huge part of it if you don't want to do something or if you want to do something badly that influences a whole lot of stuff and so when you have these spirits per se the reason why I think they're attached to certain areas is because they have a very strong emotional attachment and so sometimes yes they do haunt people you've got it thanks that's actually really interesting as well as the rest but Jen if you have any thoughts on that I want to give you a chance otherwise we'll jump to the next question well if i'm going to steal man the position here why if ghosts exist why it would why might they haunt a house is possibly the same reason we live in houses and then a traumatic event happens there's some shock there's an inability to resolve the shock and move past it which includes this believing oneself to be in a house which apparently if they're the ghost hunters are to be believed actually does have some bearing in reality which i'm still skeptical about interesting okay just to add to that so if i understand you're right you're saying well the home is the place that you'd spend the most time at probably probably the most likely place to have traumatic experiences especially a traumatic death whether it be like domestic violence or whatever else accidents whatever else it might be and so okay really interesting this one coming in oh thanks so sunflower thanks for your super chat want to remind you folks i pinned it in the chat earlier but it probably already disappeared is that 100 of the super chats are going to worldwide orphans tonight so if you happen to put in a question you don't have to put it in as a super chat you can just tag me at modern a debate in the live chat but if you want you can put it in a super chat that will be read first and like i said 100 of those super chats will be going to that cause we'll put the link or i should say the receipt for that donation on the youtube social page as we want to be as transparent as possible with those donations or these charity drives but with that we're going to jump into this next question this one was our ghost demonic this is the third most requested subtopic to hear you guys weigh in on or whether or not that would in case in gen your case whether or not you think that could be coherent like if you wanted to steal try to steal man it but go ahead first troubling tribune yeah sure thing um i personally don't subscribe um you know fully to the idea that um these spirits that we encounter are you know evil or demonic um i tend to think that a lot of that is there's actually propaganda to get us to not try to figure them out you know people tend to stay away and and be fearful of things that they don't understand um and so i think that's where a lot of that comes from but i don't think that um i don't think that spirits are demonic yeah it appears to be a different class of question demon if that's associated with the devil then the devil's kind of on par with god whereas ghosts would appear to be on par with humans i don't know if that's a fair description of the question or a misrepresenting it sorry but interesting question you got it and last one of these subtopics that we requested or pulled in the audience to see if people had any interest why would ghosts have sexual interests in particular i think it is referring to like a succubus the idea of what's the other word but incubus whether or not there are ghosts that have sexual intentions for humans or if you even believe in that troubling tribune because maybe you i know that you don't necessarily have to adhere to every type of ghost that there possibly is what do you think right right uh that's actually a very interesting question um it does presuppose i feel like what the when we're talking about succubi and things like that that it does kind of presuppose some evil intent or some demonic intent um but i actually don't know very many stories um or instances of this being a thing but uh if it is a thing i would again point to the fact that spirits um would most likely be a result of will and strong emotion carried over after the passing of the body um which just to kind of touch on that for a split second i think that we all become ghosts but i think that not everybody is a conscious ghost if that makes any sense um so anyway uh so yeah i think a spirit that would have like sexual desires or something like that would probably be the result of um you know strong relationships in life um maybe they were uh what's the word i'm looking for maybe they were a nymphomaniac or something like that you got it yeah if all it is is talking about uh if all it is is if the burden of evidence is sort of unclear what we're even talking about we say ghosts here but if the burden of evidence is so low that we're just saying it's any kind of non-local consciousness well i don't think that's too hard to establish you got it and we want to give you guys any closing thoughts before we jump into the q and a any topics as well that we maybe didn't touch on that you'd like to discuss one as a possible example like poltergeist that's an interesting idea do i understand right this has been a long time since i've read any of these terms but i did about a year ago we had a ghost hunter on and i read some of these terms just because he asked if i would be familiar do i understand that a poltergeist isn't necessarily constrained as you mentioned for example to like a home that a poltergeist might be where it's following people but remind me let me know what poltergeist means um i think most people when they mean poltergeist they mean an extremely active and violent spirit and i think that's a pretty accurate description um sometimes again i think sometimes they haunt people sometimes they haunt homes um kind of like jen pointed out earlier and you that uh yeah the home is the most likely place where you're going to be you know spending a lot of time having traumatic events and things like that happen and not to mention you got a lot of stuff at your house to mess up so if you gotta if you got a spirit that's trying to mess with you um is probably going to mess with your stuff which you probably have at your house um but i know the next question probably as well as you know skyler i thought you said that you know you didn't believe that the spirits were evil and i don't i think that they're uh misunderstood or possibly going through some stuff so poltergeist um although a disgruntled spirit i don't necessarily think is evil you got it i just i just want to hop in real quick i don't have any opinion about the poltergeist but the question i sort of spaced out on before would why would ghosts be sexual the same reason humans are sexual so that's all i wanted to throw in on that and thanks you got it any additional points from either of you before the q&a any closing thoughts as we draw together the threads from the discussion um well i guess i'll go first on that um i didn't it is kind of a bummer that i didn't get to present all the evidence i'm going to be working really hard over the next couple weeks to revamp all my equipment here um again most of my stuff i do is on tiktok so i do almost everything on my cell phone um but i appreciate everybody having me on um some of the physical evidences that i thought were really good that i didn't get the chance to present was actually uh they one of the ghost hunters actually had a chalice that they didn't even mean to film on their way out the door and it was uh lit on fire mysteriously which i thought was pretty cool um so don't think that evidence has to be limited um to just like pushing and pulling certain things um the way that i see it is that pretty much anything a human could do uh they could do which also brings me to my final point on um i know that a lot was talked about about the you know burden of evidence and how because these things happen in different ways and different accounts that that means they're all effectively very very weak but i would just like to say that if we were um you know comparing something similar you know if we had like a super duper rare animal that you know is very very hard to find and we only have a few accounts of um you know and a few mysterious videos of people who happen to be in the right place at the right time it would still be fallacious to say that that animal doesn't exist just because you personally have not had an experience with it and finally not everything can be measured scientifically you got it appreciate the time any thoughts jen yeah thanks a lot for the opportunity to be part of this conversation it's great to talk to a fellow skeptic and open minded person about a topic that apparently a lot of people are interested in and as regards to the conversation i think it was some interesting points were made maybe uh i saw some complaints in the chat that neither of us brought any evidence it's unclear to me what type of evidence would you know i'd basically be stuck debunking uh ghost videos so that's a bit of a shift a burden of proof shifting fallacy i think i think i was able to establish that empirically evidence is not going to be obtainable for ghosts even if they are real in some sense even if these accounts aren't all just fabricated evidence then even in spite of that our own materialist presuppositions culturally would preclude the evidence we generate which is basically incidental you know no offense to the ghost hunters uh would preclude that evidence itself then come meeting a an empirical standard so kind of a live by the empirical standard die by the empirical standard thing it works until it doesn't and conversations like this are a great way to push a conversation forward maybe see firsthand the flexibility and utility of a system like pad psychism where you know at first you start out with what are you trying to say that rocks are conscious and electrons have feelings but at the end actually well it's very strict system of reasoning that comes out of non-dualism and yeah there are conscious effects but they're perfectly reasonable just as reasonable as argument the argument that consciousness manifests as a thermodynamic process so really appreciate everybody listening to my points and to troubling tribune or thank you so much for being my debate partner and james and the channel thanks for having me looking forward to the q&a 100 and with that we're gonna jump into the q&a indeed want to say i'm also glad that we stuck with that i was worried we're gonna lose this debate at front i was like oh man this thing is sunk so thank you for your patience and sticking with this troubling tribune as we really do appreciate it i know that i asked you beforehand if you could use your computer as it basically in other words to use those files and so thank you very much for bearing with and thanks for your patience with me as i know that i probably looked a little bit irritated i'm sorry about that so thank you for being a good sport and thank you for being with us as i mentioned folks a hundred percent of the super chats are going to worldwide orphans tonight so you don't have to put in a super chat to put in a question but you're certainly welcome to and it's going to a good cause helping orphans around the world this one coming in from ga thanks for your support ga says to troubling tribune why are there no methods to repeatedly and physically detect paranormal phenomena and why is it not accepted as scientific that's a great question i actually think that gen kind of nailed it right on the head when it comes to um the empiricism of it because we do have to narrow down a very specific definition without narrowing down uh the specific definition and having all these things that it can be um it becomes increasingly more difficult to provide empirical evidence um and again the definition of empirical evidence i believe means that it has to meet like the scientific burden and again if we're just being honest who expects somebody to catch a ghost and start doing tests on it to prove that they exist scientifically like we just got to get reasonable that's why i always bring up the point that science is not always the best way to you know prove things it's great for proving a lot of things and ideally if you can get scientific evidence of course that's the strongest form but just because there is an absence of it does not mean um that the object in question or the thing in question doesn't exist you got it thank you very much and this one coming in from do appreciate your question dq says for troubling tribune how do you distinguish between a psychoactive idealism versus the idea that ghosts are external to minds perceiving slash conceiving of them uh so in my in other words they exist whether we think about them or not it's kind of hard to answer without a little bit of clarification on the question you might have it your guess is as good as mine because i've never thought of idealism in the context of ghosts i can see how it's it's not like it's contradictory or anything so i get the dq's asking a coherent question i'm still just wrapping my mind in terms of the idealism of usually idealism like the form i'm familiar with is as an example if let's say under some theist versions of idealism might be that god's mind is reality and we're all just like parts of god's mind like within god's mind so i'm trying to think of it how do you distinguish between a psychoactive idealism namely that maybe ghosts are something like within our minds in an idealistic version the same way versus the idea that they're external to minds well if you um the fact that multiple different observers can observe them why would say would be the answer to that um if it was something that was just in like the individual mind then it would be just that one person would see the spirit and nobody else would but the fact is is that we have evidence of them manifesting you know physically that multiple people can verify you got it and this one coming in from want to ask this question two seconds loading these up are your interiors here ask is it possible to astral project as a religion religious person or is that considered demonic is that for me uh it was for troubling but you're both welcome to answer i've been talking gen i'll let you go first if you want yeah it's i would say any type of non-local consciousness is not something that should be aspired to it's should be something that eventually when it does happen that one doesn't resist it if it's a necessary process and i guess i don't see why astral projecting would ever be necessary so i wouldn't call it demonic i would just say i would discourage people from doing it for your own self-interest that there's no the benefit whatever it may be doesn't outweigh the risk i would take the exact opposite approach of that and say that i personally believe that everybody should be attempting to astral project and to master that mental muscle if you will and the reason why i think that first the actual question that you asked is it demonic i don't personally believe that it's demonic but if you are a christian i do believe there may be some passages against it so if you don't want to step on your faith always do your own research you know read your own book and see what it says about it but i don't personally believe that it's something evil or demonic in fact i do believe it has a ton of utility if it can be mastered you there are reports of people being able to live basically an entire second life while they go to sleep on astral projection and lucid dreaming and the difference in those of course would be that astral projection is just outside of the body lucid dreaming is just a dream that you created for yourself and you control you can ask questions like well how do you know the astral projection isn't just a lucid dream and to which i would say make sure you're paying attention to your surroundings try to pull information and then when you wake up compare the information because you'll find that if you're dreaming the information never lines up but if you're astral projecting then the information can line up and you can realize that you went somewhere experienced something while you were for all intensive purposes asleep i also believe that again with my belief on spirits as they are i believe that the spirits are those who have at least on some level have awareness of themselves to be able to carry on consciousness after death if you will because i say that because if you do lucid dream or astral project staying conscious is actually pretty difficult it's very very easy to just kind of slip away and become unconscious until you wake up so i do believe that when people die a lot of people do that they're just unconscious and they just kind of slip away back into wherever it is that we go but for those of us who are really really conscious or paying attention or perhaps had something very traumatic happen you know where you would be paying very very close attention adrenaline is very very high i think that that is the conditions of which you can transcend your body if you will and i don't think there's anything demonic about that you got it this one coming in from do appreciate it other super chat from coffee mom says hi what is the soul where is the soul in our body i think that's for you traveling tribune awesome yeah so i don't know if there's a specific center where the soul resides but if i know that some ideas that we have on it are the chakra centers if you look into buddhism and hinduism you'll see that we actually they believe that the soul is broken up into different parts of the ego if you will safety will love all that kind of stuff so not to get too technical with it i don't know where the soul resides i don't know if anybody knows where the soul nice can i try to answer go for it i don't define a soul in my system because i just don't want to have arguments about that but i know people talk about souls so i could just say like what is it it's an entity undergoing evolution that animates the body that is fundamentally is present fundamentally in entangled photon waveform that means it's made of light but it wouldn't be existing in that form without the containment of the body so it's light plus body and that's what people generally refer to as a soul so if there's what was the question specifically about a soul or they also asked where it would be where in the body where would it be inside the soul so the soul is the animating potential of the body the body is fully inside the soul and then the soul would have an energetic maximum somewhere around for most people around the brain and that's where you know god where nature put it so that's why trying to force yourself to non-local consciousness in some way is like us not not quite god's plan for us but it does sometimes happen so it's a bit complicated but anyway please be careful and that's what i would say a soul is you got it dark matter and battle wrap things for your super chat set enjoying this debate so far thumbs up we also had somebody in the live chat say that they enjoyed this debate even more than the last one this one from sun flower says the act of observation and by last one i mean the last ghost of eight in particular that we had about a year ago so actually i think we had one in like january this one sunflower says the act of observation doesn't have quote unquote mass and yet it collapses wave functions and thus affects the physical world you don't need mass to affect the physical world never did thanks for that any thoughts either of you i think that's uh i don't know too much about the quantum side of stuff but that sounds pretty accurate to me you got it jen the question is do you don't need mass to have if physical effects roughly speaking i think they're well if all you're saying is yeah i mean just to steal man that you could say well light is like everything that happens is mediated by light everything is mediations light is massless therefore the thing that is causing all the changes is itself massless you could argue that but uh panpsychism if you take that approach alone panpsychism becomes trivial which is not too exciting so it's actually does mean something that mass is connected to consciousness because it's what allows for consciousness to be bound to a very tiny geometric area relatively speaking and in the process get all of this compounded complexity hopefully that helps clear it up you got it thank you very much for your question this one coming in from hillside thanks for your donation to worldwide orphans appreciate that i didn't see a question attached if you want to ask a question let me know and we can ask it for you this one from arcade outpost says no comment on the debate but listen to the album haunted by the artist po it's the most underrated album of the early 2000s thank you for letting us know about that i actually love early 2000s music so i actually will check that out and jupiter darman says if i were a ghost i would be flying around jupiter and checking out black holes in the galaxy and stuff like that why do ghosts waste time yanking bedsheets and stuff like that i think they're maybe alluding back to that video give you a chance to respond sure um so and again we're dealing in the land of blue right so we're going to go ahead and admit that up front there's no way to actually test this but my theory is that it's a lot like a psychedelic trip that's gone very very wrong um that's why i say the spirits aren't evil that are you know messing with people like that i think they're stuck in a state of mind and a thought loop and i think that uh being in that thought loop for some time you know can make make you violent um so as someone who has experimented and by the way i will preface this again by saying don't do drugs uh definitely don't do any illegal drugs but i have experimented with the psychedelics and the minds can definitely do some pretty crazy things and i have myself been caught in thought loops for hours so um it's not a stretch for me to think that uh in a state where i'd be in a sleep state um where conscious is much more malleable and fleeting um that i could get caught um or that something can get caught in a negative thought loop so i think that they just aren't aware that there's other things that they can do you got it thoughts jen i don't have anything to contribute to that you got it and this one coming in from do appreciate your question thunder storm says i believe the supernatural is real from experience most people have an experience hope these few coins help the cause and help someone thanks for your support any thoughts regarding that in terms of the i believe the supernatural is real from experience yeah that's like a major go ahead i didn't mean to interrupt you just fine i was like yeah that's uh that's like the major a major point of evidence is that most people do experience something on the paranormal um on the paranormal level and thank you so much for helping the cause really appreciate it jen what do you think can any of these experiences count well if you accept personal experience or some type of aggregate of personal experience i.e a bunch of personal experiences about the same thing well sure it can count but according to our current modern understanding of what evidence of ghosts would require a simple personal experience as far as i understand has no way to rise to a scientific standard essentially because it's subjective thereby precluding it from being objective which is necessary for science so i've made a mistake in reasoning please correct ma'am i'm always open to that you've got to thank you very much for this question coming in from do appreciate it arcade outpost oh we got that one this one coming in from blade runner 0001 says troubling tribune what ghost movie do you think is the most accurate depiction of genuine ghost phenomena oh man that's a tough one um i'm honestly terrible with names that's the bad question to ask because i know the movies but i don't know the names of the movies um so i'm gonna have to take a pass on that sorry ask me another time you got it was paranormal activity was that ghost or was that demonic or that was uh i think that was uh they said it was a poltergeist so someone consider it demonic um again i don't but yeah i think that was actually a pretty decent movie that was pretty scary too gotcha and this one coming in from do appreciate it au studio says peppers ghost illusion created holograms since 1862 do you know what they were referring to troubling tribune um i believe that i heard something about it but again i just go back to the point of even though some are faked um because there is a profit motive it doesn't mean that all of them are faked so just leave it at that you got it and this one coming in from coffee mom says if it's not unreasonable to expect proof why is it unreasonable to not believe in it why is it not unreasonable to not believe in it yes i'm trying to figure that out not unreasonable let me put that one more time i'm having trouble understanding that question as well if it's not unreasonable to expect proof why is it unreasonable to not believe in it in other words uh if it's not unreasonable to expect proof where it's kind of like oh hey like yeah fair you can expect true expect proof if if you would say that then why is it unreasonable to not believe in the proof i think they're saying like why isn't why is it unreasonable to not believe in the proof that you offer troubling tribune or maybe you would say that you know people could reasonably disagree and not believe in your proof or evidence absolutely i mean there's always room for dissent you know i'm definitely not running a militant ship over here everybody is entitled to believe whatever they would like to believe however i personally find it a fallacious to discount the hundreds of thousands of accounts of people who have experienced something like that you got it jen i don't want to deny their accounts either and my system of understanding certainly has allowance for the validity of personal perception but it wouldn't rise to this empirical standard which is i think what we are all talking about when we're talking about evidence for ghosts thank you you got it thank you very much for your question this one coming in from do appreciate it chai merrick says why ouija boards use all caps language and state id i don't know what that's a weird one is he trying to allude to some like legal jargon or something maybe you have to be a certain age talking about the straw man you might have to be a certain age to buy a ouija board could that be it really possibly i for some reason have this i'm not sure if it's an artifact or what but i for some reason this memory that you had to be 14 to buy a ouija board at some point this one from samir farsane thanks for your super chat says a heart arrives are late for surgery the patient dies why is the transplant useless now if not that the quote soul left the body body is useless without a soul any thoughts the two of you yes um body is useless without soul soul is not useless without body in my opinion it's unclear what the question is asking is the idea that if you now once the person is dead you can theoretically perform the surgery and they'll come back to life if that's what the argument is then there's such a thing as brain death the brain has very high requirements for oxygen this is not active circulation going on it will be i mean even hypothetically the consciousness comes back just impossible on a flesh level yeah i'm not sure what the i'm not i hope that's actually answering the question i'm not sure if i understood it you got it this one coming in from cruise vander work says great debate first goes debate that i have ever seen so glad you liked it cruise and i couldn't agree more both of our guests are linked in the description so if you'd like to hear more or watch more from their tiktok or youtube you certainly can by clicking on those links right now what are you waiting for you can open up a second tab and keep it waiting there for you like a nice treat after this debate wraps up dark matter and battle rap says what do you think about arcons jins or demons so jins being demons in islam and says and why are ghosts so heavily depicted as scary and malevolent yeah that's actually a good point like could i mean like i know that well we'll give you a chance most about easiest answer to that to the last question you just asked is propaganda i do believe there is a lot of heavy propaganda towards the paranormal to keep us from wanting to understand it and engage with these things i think there's a good possibility that these things have knowledge and certain things that they can be teaching us and possibly even vice versa so that's kind of the answer the last question as far as like what i think of gin demons and what all these other religions depict is these like really really evil things again i think they're just if they are sincere the people depicting these things then i think that they are misunderstanding i think that your emotion towards these things actually bleeds into how they act towards you because we are dealing with things on a very energetic wavelength so i would definitely watch how you feel in the presence of the spirit if you think one's around you got it janice least action yeah least action kind of implores us to consider the something along the lines of occum's razor so i would be looking at a psychological ruling out let's say impossibilities approach i.e what's what's kind of the simplest way to explain this type of concepts are cons gins demons that to me they all fit the profile of invented concepts fundamentally invented in storytelling and used in storytelling to discourage behavior that was understood to be dangerous in some sense you got it this come coming in from alpha uno says jan we haven't empirically proven gravity observed only its effects does that mean that gravity doesn't exist i think this is meant to be an analogy for ghosts well we do have empirical evidence now we have to be careful with science so we don't we can't use science to prove things in and of itself the strength slash weakness of science is that it can't prove it can only disprove but in terms of establishing the phenomenon of gravity now that's not to say we have a transcendent perfect model of gravity but just establishing it empirically as existing absolutely you have tons of devices that could establish that gravity is a thing and it's a question of what does it mean to interpret the thing that we're calling gravity that's not empirical evidence that's understanding something through a theoretical model so we're talking about empirical evidence which is our devices which are calibrated with numbers and make measurements can tell us on a considerable enough timeline reasonable enough amount of data to believe that yeah it's always going to be functioning essentially the same way we've absolutely met that per burden with gravity not ghosts though but nice try i appreciate the the attack you got it and we put a poll in the chat again this one was did you by chance hit that based and red-pilled like button we had the highest thank you very much 48% as i did it and i liked doing it get it this one from appreciate your question uh we're as Campbell says how would troubling tribune falsify the existence of ghosts in other words is there anything that could falsify ghosts or are they unfalsifiable nice that's actually an excellent question um so at this point i actually would think that they're unfalsifiable just to be completely fair um and the reason why i would think that is because we can't pinpoint everything that these things can actually do um or give a 100 strict definition that would limit um basically again limit what these things can do um so yeah i do think at this point they are unfalsifiable however i would again add that things that um are unfalsifiable um don't necessarily bad way of saying it things that aren't scientific again don't necessarily not exist and things that aren't falsifiable it's true aren't scientific but it doesn't mean that they aren't real uk pi thanks for your question says if we don't know or can't prove ghosts why assume that they're dead people uh this might be going back to that idea of like whether or not it's some other type of being pretending to be a dead person or in some cases if you just see an apparition like what looks like a person like maybe it's something like a maybe we're in a simulation and it's something kind of popping up from the same maybe it's even interdimensional maybe you know especially if people believe in a multiverse of millions of universes or an infinite amount of universes it seems like if there's an infinite it's actually guaranteed that some of some beings from another universe might visit us what are your thoughts yeah i mean um i you know from the very beginning said that i wasn't going to give a you know specific strict definition that would preclude um or that would mean that spirits have to be only dead people i think that spirits can be dead people i think that there is evidence to suggest that and the fact that they look humanoid and the fact that they seem to inhabit places um that have significant meaning to that person um and the fact that again it's it's widespread that you know just about every other person that you talk to on the street has had some sort of um has had some sort of experience so uh i'm sorry what was the question again well it's kind of like that this is a random thanks for your question also ask this it it kind of reminds me of the old uh what's the i think it's called like the demon's paradox i can't remember it's this idea that like what if the the god of christianity like some people might raise the objection of like what if this god is actually just tricking you like how could you know that it's actually benevolent and maybe in actuality like if you became a christian it would punish you or something how do you know that it's not the case this person's asking randon says but then how can you be sure that ghosts are not demons pretending to be deceased people i mean i guess they could be you can't actually establish something like that that's that's just part of the mind dependence problem that people are dishonest to deny when they do it's doesn't actually change the question of it doesn't actually matter where it comes from it's can we detect the effects reliably to a standard we can all agree is empirical this one coming in from iron we didn't actually answer the question though whether spirits are dead people uh can i get a chance to answer your question uh why our spirits often understood as dead people chalk that up to wishful thinking we this is a super skeptical position i'm not saying this is 100 how i feel but this is where you kind of have to start to make sure that you're as as skeptical as possible is just to say it's all just wishful thinking can we attribute all of this to wishful thinking no but we have a reasonable basis that sure it's perfectly understandable that somebody would want to talk to a recently deceased uh loved one and might deceive themselves into thinking they had some interaction with them regardless of whether it's aliens dead people or demons larping as dead people or some other horrifying thing that is apropos for this month thanks for giving me a chance to answer you got it this one coming in some mere far saying says gen would you sleep alone in a known haunted house uh for science for science i might yeah i could definitely see myself doing like something like that i wouldn't exclude it from the realm of possibility like what say uh so i live in colorado and i live in about an hour away from what's the old hotel in colorado that is allegedly it's famous and it's they used footage of it coincidentally i think it's just the outside that they used for the movie the shining but it's allegedly a genuinely haunted hotel haunted hotel in uh the uh the stanley hotel that's what it was is you know so people pay to stay at this hotel you can still stay there would you stay if it was paid for it sounds like you're saying like yeah i'm sure i mean for the sake of science like let me because nobody's died there so i guess that's the thing is like you know because part of me i'm even somewhat go skeptical i'll be honest or i'm kind of like i don't know maybe there's something but i so i'm kind of like 50 50 and i'm kind of like nah i don't really want it like i don't care to mess around with it i even if it even if nobody's died there anyway i'll get let you guys answer jen it sounds like you're saying for the sake of science i would be willing absolutely and uh this one coming in you know even if something happened that still wouldn't make me skeptical that wouldn't change my position just saying even if i myself perceived this ghost directly wouldn't change i would still be willing to come back on modern day debate and be skeptical about ghosts just saying so thanks thank you go ahead sorry i just wanted a chance to address that as well um i would actually raise the stakes and say not only would i want to stay in a haunted place um i think i want to stay in the most haunted place because i want i actually have no fear of these spirits whatsoever i know a lot of people feel differently but i don't at all i'm very fascinated by them i feel like i've had conversations with them in my life and things like that so i would absolutely love to go to the most haunted place and document the whole experience juicy and creep fighters says our ghost clothes also ghosts i think they're saying so like is a ghost wearing a ghost or is it just what's the deal are they they're wearing clothes i mean why is that it's probably just what they were wearing when they died it's just what they see themselves in again if a ghost is a you know manifestation of you know their mind and the motion after they passed you know why wouldn't they be wearing the clothes they died in you got it samir farsane says isn't schrodinger's cat taboo yet you believe it i don't know who that's for um i don't know what that i mean i think even schrodinger himself thought that it was i mean i think for him it was a a joke it's basically intended to illustrate the that there was some intrinsic fallacy in how we were interpreting quantum mechanics so i don't i can't speak for troubling tribune here but i don't believe in schrodinger's cat other than apart from to say i believe it's a horrifying metaphor thank you you got it i don't know this story this one coming in from iron chariot or iron horse uh aka flat earth ozzy says uh troubling tribune can you help me to have a succubus arrive at my house tonight what is that okay why iron horse this one coming in from nasty guy all right i made that up he didn't really ask that but he is but we're gonna go to the next one let me see here i think that might be it i want to let our guests out because we want to let him get as if possible to share the link to my after show because i'm gonna talk about this debate just a little bit on my channel and anyone who wants to come by i'll stream yard's link and you can join and give your thoughts on ghosts if anyone feels like talking a little bit uh welcome and please subscribe to my channel thanks happy i will i will be happy to put that i've already got your link but i will also put the specific after show link in the description so people can find it more easily this one from dark matter and battle wraps a question for troubling tribune are you on the path of the hero's journey and if so which stage of the hero's journey are you currently in right now nice that's an excellent question i would say that i am on the hero's journey um i'm sure uh people in my life will debate what part of it that i'm on but i'd say right now i'm in the part where i've just finished learning some valuable skills of how to be in life and now i'm out here starting to apply those skills and see what i can do with them you got it with that we're going to jump into the post credit scene in just a moment so stick around for that folks i will be back to let you know about upcoming debates and then we'll wrap up shortly after that as jen has that after show which i'm going to put in the description box right now so folks want to encourage you to check out our ghost or our guest links we appreciate them seriously the guests are the lifeblood of the channel and so with that stick around folks i'll be back in just a moment one last thank you to troubling tribune and jen it's been a true pleasure i'll be back in just a moment folks stick around thanks for having us whoa my dear friends want to say thanks so much for being here oh don't worry i'm going to unscramble this right now in the old obs you could say want to say a couple of things in particular but your first time here at moderated bait we host debates on science religion and politics all sorts of debates all the time and that's all we host we are a fully neutral channel and what do i mean by that not only is it important to us to have moderate you could say neutral fair moderators but also our channel does not put out any content that argues for Christianity or atheism or the red pill or the black pill or politically left or politically right position it is fully neutral in that if it's not a debate we don't host it we don't host interviews even with different speakers we've told people hey you know we'd love to have you but we can't have you in an interview because we only host debates that's it it's a fully neutral debate platform so i want to say thanks for all of your support of this platform and thanks so much for your support of the cause tonight as we raise a good chunk of funds for worldwide orphans tonight so i'm putting in my notes here make donation and post receipt so i will make i will post that receipt let me double check right now how much we had come in and i will post that receipt in our youtube social tab as we appreciate you guys partnering with us in those charity drives that really means a lot for us we want to make the world a better place that's why we do at least one charity stream per month helping out whether it be organizations like worldwide orphans which we for tonight's debate sponsored in terms of raising funds for them that helps orphans across the globe so children who are without parents tragically this helps support those children so thank you guys for all of your support that's important to us is that we as a youtube channel we want to say hey a lot of people talk about for example content creators a lot of content creators talk about wanting to make the world a better place or you know wanting to do good or like that they even sometimes saying that they do good whatever it is and for us we're saying hey we want to actually just do the action less chat more actually doing it and so for us taking action by giving those funds to people who are best trained in those actual jobs or fields to be able to help people whether it be orphans or people who might be suffering from certain diseases whatever it might be that's important to us we want to actually take action and do that and that's why 100 of those super chats including the 30 that youtube takes modern day debate like fills in or supplements or replaces that 30 percent that way all of your super chat donation if you put in $10 it's not just $7 it's $10 out of $10 that is going to that charity and modern day debate for us we're glad to give that 30 percent of whatever is raised as for us we want to put our you know put our chunk in as well and want to say thank you guys though for your support it really does mean a lot we appreciate you guys supporting the vision of this channel namely we want to provide a neutral platform so that everybody has their chance to make their case on a level playing field that's our vision that's what we're determined to do and youtube deserves a better class of debate channel and we're going to give it to them that's why as i said we own the host debates there are no channels or videos on this channel where we come out and say oh man that one side really screwed up they looked really bad no no no no no if it's truly neutral we can't do that so we don't say oh man the atheist or oh man the christian or oh man the politically left or politically right person really did bad no no no we let you as the audience make up your minds as uh let's see we let you make up your minds uh in terms of who won the debate i i'm laughing because iron charioteer i've died a year this is i iron horse that i thought your sense of humor evaporated that's true i haven't done a joke like that in a while tinkle twink or tinkle tink thanks for coming by see you there in the little live chat where's arnie one thanks for coming by says this was a great debate even if it went off it went a few places off track hey yeah it always explores widely but yeah i appreciate it it was a great debate i agree with you and where's arnie one says yes Wesley sierra thanks for coming by says lol and uh but yeah it's always fun to tease iron horse what a world says lol james smiled and cracked a great joke thank you that's right i smile once in a while if i ever look like i'm angry or sad while a debate is going on that's my like super focused face so it's not that i'm angry or sad it's just that i'm like usually i'm really focused usually it's between one trying to keep an eye on the live chat two we have a twitch chat which i'm not very good at remembering and three trying to also look on screen to see like is everything good the way it's supposed to be like is it the case that our speakers are able to be seen is their screen share able to be seen and then i'm also trying to make sure that the topic of the debate is one that both guests have equal time and all that so like i'm like very focused and in the zone if i ever look like i'm like sad or angry i don't worry i'm okay i promise but let's see what a world says for that i hit like james thanks for that i appreciate your support your support let's see iron horse you can't say that kind of weird stuff in the chat come on not about you can't talk about possessing people and weird stuff like that i've got to time you out for that you know that this one american virtual thanks for coming by says the hero's journey could be applied to basically anything and anyone juicy and this one coming in from jared a thanks for coming by jared a i see you there thanks for your channel membership support jared seriously it means more than you know sunflower thanks for your channel membership support if you didn't know we do have channel memberships we do have patreon patreons linked in the description and channel memberships of course you can add on youtube if you feel so inclined as that helps us to put on big in-person debates as we are striving to put on some big ones in the future fill up thanks for coming by says eat a hero dose of magic mushrooms it'll help well thank you for that pat o paterson thanks for coming by appreciate you dropping in as well as cat thanks for coming by i see you there in the old live chat and s cambell thanks for coming by trippy liquids thanks for dropping in dq glad you're here dave hill good to see you again nicky thanks for coming by dr tour destroys evolution thanks for coming by we're glad you were here cat thanks for dropping in church of entropy i see you there in the live chat thanks for dropping in freedom fighter thanks for dropping in we're glad you're here thanks for being with us jupiter darman thanks for your support of modern day debate your channel membership seriously it means a lot as well as msn's front thanks for coming by devin cain glad you were here tim thanks for dropping in go to see you hillary's emails and daryl frost happy to have you here once again i recognize both of you from the past lago stafania says that this was a nice and civil one thanks james i pay that forward or that thanks forward to the speakers they make these debates awesome we appreciate them thanks mike says this is the best channel on youtube james thanks mike for your support that means a lot we really do appreciate it and melody kate thanks for coming by as well as dylan moats thanks for dropping in and let's see here jj hempre kreet bear thanks for coming in by glad you're here i am fried chicken glad you're with us as well as theological introspection says wow james that's awesome bro keep up the work thanks for your support seriously that means a lot and then let's see here is is iron horse mad did he leave because i gave him a time out iron horse you know i gotta time out some things douche bagger rock thanks for coming by i see you there in the chat cat we're glad you were here no way thanks for dropping in christoff good to have you back as well as alpha uno thanks for dropping in i see you there in the old live chat and mike thanks for dropping in good to have you with us as well as s campbell says i miss steven steen i know so true he's a nasty guy i miss him too nate from new zealand thanks for coming by says it's actually all invisible bigfoot thanks for that input and thanks for being with us pure ozzy gold thanks for coming by good to see you again 33 done thanks for your channel membership support seriously we really do appreciate that and that way you can call people a soy boy in the whole live chat let me do that to poor iron horse right now i think he's mad iron horse iron horse are you angry are you a i'm gonna put the word soy boy using the emoticon i just put it iron horse i hope you have no hard feelings i got it you know you get either some things that i've just got a i got a time off this one from or thanks for coming by melody kate says is it too late well fortunately the debate did happen so you can still rewatch it but yes you are you did miss the live portion lcfc thanks for coming by we are glad that you are here as well as jupiter darman thanks for your channel membership support seriously that really does mean a lot we appreciate that and tim thanks for coming by tim says thanks james mdd is always fun thanks for that tim that seriously means a lot but yeah i've got to tell you yeah let me look peak on this right now in terms of how much you raised in terms of super chats 121 97 so that's cool 121 97 in super chats to donate to wwo so that is encouraging thank you guys for your support of such a good cause as hey as you guys know if you if your lives ever lack meaning my friends i have to tell you life is meaningful in so many ways is one way is that we take responsible responsibility for others try to look out for others who are suffering who have gone through harder things than us the world is a truly in very real ways not always but in very real ways broken and hurting place so there are good causes that could use you as a person who is doing good in the world as a way in a small way a hero trying to alleviate that suffering because that seems like a heroic thing to do so my dear friends we appreciate all of your support of modern day debate as we strive to provide donations for these good causes like worldwide orphan so thanks for that as well as thanks so much for your last minute melody kates is for the children hope it is not too late to chip in it's not too late melody so i'll add that 1999 plus 1999 see 99 from melody gate last minute super so yes we appreciate it my dear friends we are excited about this is that i will post that donation receipt and you can be rest assured that your what you put in as a super chat is actually going to that great cause so we appreciate all of your guys support seriously as we try to make the world a better place single mom i see you there in the live chat thanks for coming by we're glad you're with us is for us that's something that transcends all of our beliefs or positions namely whether you be christian whether you be atheist whether you be muslim you name it all of us want to help those who are suffering whether it be people who are like for example orphans that are in need or all of the other causes like sometimes we do we've donated to domestic violence action centers that are helping people recover from domestic violence the world needs help there are ways in which you can have a very important purpose a very important responsibility and making the world better and so your life does have meaning as the world is calling out an desperate need of people that are willing to sacrifice for those causes so thank you guys for all of your support though as we strive to make the world a better place and to provide a neutral platform that is fair so that everybody gets their shot to make their case on a level playing field that's important to us those are our values we want to make the world a better place and we want to be a fair platform so that everybody has their fair shot those are our values and we're sticking to them and believe me this is just the beginning of the story for modern day debate we are only getting started my dear friends we are absolutely pumped that modern day debate is grown like it has we guys we thank you guys seriously we appreciate you guys so much it's been fantastic and amazing that we have hit 80 000 subscribers last week i put out a video saying thank you guys but this is still just the beginning of our story as we continue to expand across youtube and across the podcast world so thank you guys for all of your support we love you guys thank you guys as we're excited about the future we have big things to come thank you guys so much for all of your support and we'll see you at the next debate as we have a number of them scheduled for this upcoming week you don't want to miss them thank you guys i hope you have a great rest of your night and we'll see you at the next one