 Good morning everyone, thanks for coming and thank you to the librarians for running programs on job search. It's always great to be able to share this beyond my own organization so this is wonderful. Today we're going to be talking about informational interviews and I just want to tell you that I always like to mention that I consider informational interviewing to be the gold standard of job search. There's no way that you can get closer to an organization other than them inviting you for a job interview, which they're in control of but you are in control of trying to put together informational interviews so we're going to talk about that. I'm going to share my screen. And I want to put you all into gallery mode so I can actually, you know, I know most of you are keeping your cameras off because you're very shy. Or you're still, still not dressed, whatever the reason. I still want to see who's here. So I'll be doing that and I will be showing you my slides at the same time. I'm going to put this into presentation mode so that you'll be able to see a large slide. So just by way of introductions. This is me I'm David Robbins I'm the senior instructor for the job search accelerator program at JVS JVS. We just celebrated our 50th anniversary in the Bay Area. We help people build in demand job skills test with employers what are employers looking for, and then we train people in those skills, and we make connections and try to build careers in the Bay Area. To update this slide we just celebrated our 50th anniversary at SF Jazz that's a one year every year annual fundraiser, where we talk about what we do and we invite many corporate partners to come to that alumni people who have graduated our programs come to that. What do we specialize in we, we have training expertise we bring in trainers, we don't have the expertise ourselves we bring in trainers to teach people in health care and technology in the in the business the building trades. We always look to serve a diverse population so we're always looking to make sure that we're working in an environment of diversity, equity and inclusion. In order to help our graduating clients, we make sure that we have partnerships with hundreds of employers. So we're always working with employers to let them know hey here's the people were training, and they'll sometimes give our graduates first crack at jobs that are coming up. These are some of the offerings I'm not going to go through all of them but you get this slide set after the presentation, and you'll be able to go through this slide by slide anything that I kind of glossing over because the information is here on the slide for you and there's a link at the bottom of the slide if you want to get more information from our website. This is the program job search accelerator is the program that I work with. We do a two week kind of an intensive program. It's two weeks and all we cover we don't do anything about card skills. We talk about job search skills and we work just on resume cover letter interviewing. We put together a star stories, all of the details of what we call the seven essentials of job search are covered in a two week period, and then people graduate, and then continue to get support from JVS for one year. While they're looking for for work. Most people don't have to be there for a year, but it depends on what people are looking for and what the availability is out in the marketplace. This is why you're here that was the commercial commercials over. Now we can get into. This is the content and again, as I mentioned I really think that information interviewing is is so important and I'll tell you about my experience with information of you, including the fact that my, I've been I've been working at JVS for 13 years. I've been doing my job through an informational interview. So we'll talk a little bit about that and I'll give you a couple of experiences that I've had, and I'll share one of my clients experiences also. We want to talk about what information interviewing is why you should be considering it. Actually, I shouldn't you shouldn't even consider it you should definitely learn to do informational interviews and how to do it so I'll give you a little bit of each piece. So the first thing is what is an informational interview. It is a pre arranged conversation, meaning that you have to set it up in advance it's not just you bump into somebody and start talking to them it's where you're going to ask someone for some of their time. And, and in asking them for their time, you're going to then be able to prepare to actually interview them to get information about what you're looking for. So it might be in a company that you're interested in talk to somebody who works in that company learn more about the company and how it is to work in that company, or it could be in an industry. It's part of networking, but it's also part of research. So it, the reason again I consider to be gold standard is that it covers two of the seven essentials the research essential, and the interviewing essential so it does both of those, excuse me, the networking essential. So, just a quote that I, that I found from author of a book called stand out networking. So true you may think you know all about a particular position. Speak to somebody who does that work, and you have the best opportunity to test your assumptions. So I think that's something that's going to really help. And actually, when I, I worked for Hewlett Packard for 16 years, and they had a major. Basically, lay off 15,000 people will echo kind of something that tech is going through now tech goes through these things periodically. I was one of 15,000 I got let go and then I was looking around what should I be doing next. And I use informational interviewing to help me figure out what I might want to do next, and what I definitely don't want to do. And that's where informational interviewing can really help. It'll save you a lot of time if you put in a 15 minute conversation with somebody to realize, ooh, I don't want to do that. I don't ever have to look at those job postings again. So I think that this is real important. This is what an informational interview is, but this is what it is not. It is not a job interview. If you think that you're going to talk to somebody in a particular role and ask them about jobs that are available. That's the time when they realize, oh, you don't want to talk to me about information. If you're interested in jobs, go down the hall to the HR department and fill out the application. Different role. People are don't want to be sad when finding you a job, particularly these are people you may not know. They're not good friends. So they don't really want to be put in the position of finding you a job, but people love to give advice. People love to share information and people love to help people get a leg up. So it's not a job interview, but it's also not just to get together with your friends. I'm having coffee with a friend that's an informational interview. It's not. I said, yeah, but I'm asking them about the work that they do. Well, then formalize that and turn it into an informational interview. It is not a place to ask for a job. Can't be strong enough on that. It's also not an activity to walk into unprepared, because you have an opportunity here to get an ally. And that's wonderful because we all need that in our job search, we need allies out there people who could speak for us and speak on our behalf. So remember what it's not not a job interview, not a casual get together, not a place to ask for a job, and not a place to walk in unprepared. So that's the what it is and what it is not. But why should we bother. David, give me the why. Okay, I will. Here's the why. Why of informational interviews. This is where you get firsthand information about the realities of what you're looking for. This is a place where you can test out certain premises. This is where you can also find out about career paths that didn't know existed. And then go out and get information about that. You can get tips and insider information about how to prepare for this position. So, give you some of the how to, this is just the why. And, and these are the things that you get as benefits of an informational interview. This is where you can also learn what it's like to work at a specific organization. And if I think I want to work for ABC company, you can prepare you can look at the job boards you can, you can send your resume and cover letters in you can really get ready to get that job in this company. But do you really know whether this is a good company to work for. Be nice to find that out while you're applying I'm not saying don't apply. But while you're applying. Try to find somebody in that company to speak with to find out what's it like to work here. What's your day like. What kind of projects to people work on. What's the growth potential here. Is there a professional development model that people are using inside this company. These are all the questions that very hard to find in a website very hard to find. Research, which you definitely should do. But while you're applying to this company, try to get more information to decide, wait a second. This is not the company from New York. Oh, this is a great company. Not only are you making that decision, you're getting information so that if you do get invited for an interview, you now have some more information about the company that you can share at an interview. That's the one of the wise. Another is, as you're meeting somebody, you're starting to build a professional relationship with that person. So that's the networking piece. You could actually build a long term relationship with somebody even if you don't ever apply to that company, but just possibly keep in touch with that person, or they keep in touch with you. That you connect on LinkedIn, for example, and when they post something, you just make a comment to them. Or when you post something, you might find, oh, they're making a comment about something I just posted. But that's where you're starting to build that relationship, or your friend to great article and send it to that person that you just met. They're already in the workforce. Great opportunity to build that relationship and try to build an ally inside that organization. So there are a couple of keywords in this last bullet. One, network. Expanding your network is the way you're going to be more successful in your job search. We have a cheer in my job search accelerated program. I say networking networking and the rest of the group yells networking. Because that's what it's about. Most people will get their job from somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody. So in an informational interview, not only are you getting information for you to make some decisions, not only are you getting information to do better on an interview. You're also possibly gaining an ally and building out your network. That person can also in the last part of this last bullet. This person can also refer you to an open position that hasn't been posted yet. Let me let me give you a quick story about that. After I was let go from, from Eula Packard. I was trying to figure out what am I going to do next and I was working with a workforce development organization so I was a client learning more about resumes again 16 years working in corporate life I was away from writing resume. So I was learning how to write resume and interview I was learning all those things. And I started learning about information interviewing and I said, you know, I should check out some other things. Now I happen to run across a mock jury opportunity where they were paying people as a marketing firm, and they were paying people to come and spend the day as a mock jury. I went there and use the money I was now unemployed so who's great up and the person who facilitated that group. I really was impressed with his skills. I said, wow, that was that's really interesting. He brought in a lawyer he brought in the second lawyer, it was just as if we were a jury panel, and then we broke into juries and panels of 12. And we gave our view of how a jury would operate came back and told the lawyers, what our jury result was, and the facilitator came out again and talk I went wow I really like that. I just didn't know what it was. What is that call what that what that person just did what is that. Hard to research that. What is it that the person did where I just couldn't do that. But my next door neighbor was a lawyer. So I knocked on his door and I said, Fred, I just went to this mock jury and the guy facilitated was really fascinating. He said, Oh, that's a jury consultant jury consultant. Okay, that's interesting. And he did. And he told me a little bit about what jury consultants do it. It was actually what we went through. They test whether or not a law firm should litigate or not litigate. He said, Well, would you like to meet my jury consultant I said I'll be great. I talked with the company that he uses for jury consulting. And I set up an appointment I asked that person for 15 to 20 minutes at his time. And I said, you know, Fred gave me your name. I'd love to meet with you just to learn more about jury consultants. Sure, come on down. I went to I think we use in Sausalito, and I went there and met him had a wonderful time learning about jury consulting gave me a tour of his offices was very nice and I thanked him at the end of it. And I said that thank you very much for your time I really appreciate it learned a lot. Thank you. And I left before I even got to my car I said, I hate that. I never want to do that. It wasn't really facilitation. So much statistics that district. I said this is not for me. So, just to ask everybody here, a rhetorical question really but do you think that that was productive time for me. Okay, thank you Jennifer for showing your face and I can see you, not in your head. It really saved me from starting to look for job openings for a jury consulting consultant because I thought it was fascinating. But when I learned what it really is. I went, not for me. And it saved me so much time in job search. It eliminated an entire path that I thought would be a good one and learn would not be a good. And that's again the why of information. The reason I left this slide up. That's one of the wise of information. Now the other is getting access to what's called the hidden job market. Information interviews give you exposure, a way to get yourself known in the hidden job market. Well, the second quote here, the visibility may put you straight onto a shortlist, even if a job isn't advertised. And this comes from a book, The Success Code. So I'll give you one, one more quick story from me. I, I was still looking now I was working for, for the Lee Hecht Harrison out placement firm. I started as a client there, and they hired me on to teach job search skills, and, and do career advising. And I didn't get enough hours, I was an hourly employee I'm not getting enough hours I could really use more hours I wasn't full time. I was at a meeting. And I knew the people that were meeting and this woman said how are things going so I like what I'm doing but I'm not getting enough hours. And I told her what I was doing she said, you should talk to my husband. He's out in the lobby. Now I happen to know her husband, which is always good to know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody. And they said Howard your wife said I needed to talk to you that's one way to really get into somebody is to say, your wife said I need to talk to you. So now he said what's up. And I told him my situation. I said I'm looking for more hours to do job search training and career advising said, I do have to talk to Abbie snae. She's the executive director of J vs. And when you get the appointment in order to get the appointment, let her know that that I sent you use my name. I was on her hiring committee, 25 years ago. So now I started calling J vs. And I tried to get on her calendar. I did get on her calendar took a few weeks but I got on her calendar and I researched a lot about what is J vs. And I found out that it's similar to what I was doing. We had terrorism is a for profit organization. J vs is a nonprofit organization. So now I had a whole bunch of questions. And I put that together. And I finally got to meet with with Abbie. Again, I never saw any jobs that were open in this organization. It's a nonprofit is barely small nonprofit. But a wonderful discussion with them about what I was doing, what J vs does the difference between for profit nonprofit. And as we had a wonderful discussion. And I really appreciate it. And I said to myself, this is a great organization to work in. We'll see what happens but I didn't ask for a job. I didn't ask about any jobs that were opening open and there was nothing posted on the job boards. I thank you very much. I said I hope that we can keep in touch in the future she said yes definitely let's keep in touch. We talked for probably around 45 minutes, even though I only asked her for 15 to 20. And she said it's okay if we continue speaking. So we talked about 45 and then I left. Two weeks later, I got a call from a stranger, and they say hi, I'm with J vs. Our executive director said that I should talk to you with thinking of opening up a position for a trainer and wanted to know if you want to come in and talk about. When we talk about the hidden job market, that's what we're talking about. They had already been thinking about a position. They didn't put it out there yet. It wasn't posted anywhere. Therefore the hidden part. We talked for a while. They then said, you know we'd love you to come on here I said well I'm already working part time at the at the for profit organization. She said well we're only looking for someone part time right now. Could you do that I said that'd be great and now I had two part time jobs which did exactly what I needed. And eventually, they asked me to come on full time at J vs and I've been with J vs for 13 years. And then I get that job. Well you saw a job posting no there was no job post. Well it was a cousin no was because. But I had a great conversation with the executive director, then talked to her staff and said, remember we were talking about a trainer list. I think we have somebody for that. I didn't have to submit a resume and hope that somebody read the resume. After I talked to them, they asked me for a resume. And now that I knew what the job was all about because we had that conversation, I knew what to put on my resume and made sure it was going to work. But they really had already thought of hiring you through the informational. So that's what this is about. It's a it's a way to find out. Do I want this kind of job not want this kind of job. Do I want to work for this company not work for this company. It saves you so much time in some of the decisions we need to make when we're in job search, particularly when we're not exactly sure where we're looking to go. It also creates allies or job openings opportunities. It's a whole bunch of things that we need to be really good at when we're in job search to in order to accelerate our job search and get to the goal faster. I have one more story but it's not mine so I'll just share it on the screen. Amy was a was a client of ours and I know this is small print up. I'll read through it very quickly but this is something I asked her for can you tell me your experience with informational interviewing and you know how you were getting to look for your jobs. And this is what what she shared with us and I shared it with incoming clients. And she mentioned interviews with the most fun of her job search people who respond really want to help that's interesting. So when they say, sure, I'd love to talk with you or it's okay to talk with you or I think I can put up 15 minutes. It means that they want to help you right away so you're not in a in a job interview. Many times you think that that's adversarial will give definitely it's not adversarial because they have nothing to gain. They have nothing to help. And then she wrote in initial reach out email and any other people they might suggest I speak to. So not only did she say look to have some of your time. And if you know anyone else I should reach out to can you let me know. So now already she's starting to expand the possibility of information interviews because this person might say, I'm not available but talk to Joanne. And then you with I include what I'm looking for in my email to set up the interview. Not looking for a job. I'm looking for this kind of information. During the interview, I make note of the time and remind them that time is coming up, which is something that we teach all the time and I'll show you that in the logistics part of this program but I'm giving you 15 to 20 minutes of of their time, you are in charge of this meeting, which means you have to look at your watch or timer or whatever it is, and when 15 minutes is up you have to say, and they may still be talking I don't mean to interrupt but I want to be cognizant of your time and thank you so much for giving me this time, you said 15 minutes and 15 minutes is up. Most of the time, they'll say that's okay, I don't have something coming up right away let's continue. It's up to them to keep going. I'll continue with reach out to people ancillary to my role. She was looking for a graphic design in the sciences. So she talked to scientists science writers etc. information interviewing as networking. She network with a musician friend. She's also a musician. And that led to a possible opportunity with notes on what this company is looking for. And then it helps her to do her homework to prepare for the information interview. And again, it was not a posted job. It was part of what we call the job. So three stories showing you that it's real. It really happens. And it's something you really should consider. We talked about the what it is and we talked about the why it is. Before we get into the how it is. I'm going to stop sharing for a minute and open this up to any questions that you might have any. I didn't tell you at the beginning to possibly put questions into chat but if anybody has any questions about the, you know what informational interviewing is, or why to do it. I could take your questions right now before we get into the how to do it. You're free to unmute yourself if you have a question. No questions means I'm really good at what I do. Okay, thank you we'll continue at the end of this. We'll have more time for questions and we probably are not going to, they may not go even all the way to 1130, but we definitely have plenty of time to ask some questions. Okay, I'll share my screen again. Let me get to the next slide. We'll talk about the how you know because people say okay I got David. That looks like a good thing to do. But how do I do it. Okay, so the first thing is what career field or fields. Are you thinking about, right, because that's going to be, that's going to be really important. I started thinking about jury consulting. So I tried to set something up with a jury consultant. There are others that think I'd like to work in UX design. Well, then find somebody who works in UX design and then talk to them. So you can research different career fields, looking for people you could talk to looking for companies that are in your career path that you think might be good to find somebody in that company to talk with. So there are different ways to do it but you first want to figure out what might I want to be when I grow up. It's not just I'm going to talk to people just because I'm going to talk to people that's great networking, not an informational interview. An informational interview is much more focused than just in a networking center. Okay, when you come up with a company or an industry you don't care what company the person is in but they're in your field. Identify those people. It could be people you know it could be people who are in different fields. So there might be somebody who is in a completely different field, but working in that company. It could be somebody who's in a completely different field, but you met them at a conference and you want to learn about what it is that they do. So there are different ways you're going to talk to people that's why it matches so nicely with networking and research. So identify the people that you want to interview. And then you want to set up that initial contact. I have to say this, this might be sometimes the hardest part. So I'll actually include in this slide set a little script for what you could do to introduce yourself to somebody to ask them for some of their time. Email is the best getting somebody on the phone is real hard for them to ponder whether or not they even want to give you their time. So they'll usually make a quick yes no determination so an email is better for them to look at it and think about it. But if you do reach someone by phone always ask, is this a good time for us to talk. Don't assume they picked up the phone, and they now have five minutes. They may be picked up the phone because they thought you were the babysitter calling them. Right. So always ask, is this a good time for for us to talk I really want to talk to you for just a few minutes. I can tell you how many people, I actually say okay. And then as soon as I realize it's a solicitation, I hang up, or say thank you no thank you. But that's why again I do encourage people to do this by email if you could find an email address which is just as hard or easy as getting their email as getting their phone number so phone number email address go for the email. It's just that you're not that you're looking for information. You don't even have to say I'm not looking for a job because as soon as you say the word job they hear job. This person wants help with the job. Get it. Emphasize I'm looking for information I'm trying to learn more about jury consultant. The best thing is, if you have someone in common mutual, a mutual connection where I could say Fred mentioned to me that you are a jury consulting I want to learn more about it. And he gave me your, your email. That's it. Again, a warm introduction. So it's always good if you, if you could do that. But if not, you can still be there, talk about I found you are a jury consultant, and I wanted to learn more about jury consulting. I wonder if I can get five minutes of your time 15 to 20 minutes of your time. Ask for a convenient convenient time to me and ask for the standard is to ask for 15 to 20 minutes. That's usually the kind of time that people can kind of separate out in their work day that they could might be able to give you some of that time. If they say yes, your work's not done, you now have to prepare for the interview. How will you introduce yourself. Do you have your own data pitch. When you explain your name, what you do or what you've been doing or what you have done. Maybe a little success story that you've done. And, and the fact that you're really excited to talk with them. That's part of the introduction. And then what questions will you ask them. So I'll share some of that with you also. You do not want to go into that interview cold saying oh I know what I'm thinking about because when you walk in and you're talking to somebody, whether it's on the zoom call like this, or these days more people are meeting face to face. You want to make sure that you are prepared, even if you have notes in front of you with the questions you want to ask. That's fine. No one expects you to come in. If you have a list of questions, not no problem having a list of questions there in front of you but you want to prepare for that interview with questions that you might want to have answers to. Then remember you own the interview. You asked for it. You set it up. They agreed to be there, but now you own it so you have to conduct the informational interview. You have to watch the clock we talked about that. And then always good at the end we recommend that at the end you thank them for the time and say, is there anybody else you think I should talk to to learn more about this. So now you're also expanding. And if they say, um, yeah. Joe is a good person she knows a lot about this. I want to say, Oh, thank you very much. Can I use your name when I contact you. And now again you have a warm introduction to Joe, because you just made a mini relationship with this person. So, as for others you might speak with and ask if you could use their name. Okay, last thing. Just like a job interview, send a thank you. John, I really appreciate meeting with you. Especially if you then got the referral to Joe. You might then say, and thank you so much for the introduction to Joe, I spoke with her, and we're going to be meeting again next week. Now she, this person who you just spoke to, he or she knows that they actually helped, and it makes them feel good, and they'll want to do more of these informational. But show your appreciation and show that what what information they gave you was helpful. Okay, so this is the how these are some of the things that are really important. These are the six steps these come from UC Berkeley's career center. So this is what UC Berkeley is teaching their graduate students as they graduate. Right, so that the graduate with a master's they're going to be out there looking for work. Same thing that I'm telling you here is what they're talking to people who graduate with masters, even with PhDs, how to deal with informational. I promised you a little bit of a script. I had a script for you, unless we meet one on one. So here are some things that are important to put into into a script. Hello my name is. Don't say my name is and put a plank. My name is David rock. Okay. And then I put in italics there, give a little background about yourself this might be relative. My name is David Robbins I work as a job search coach for a nonprofit. And I'm really interested in learning more about corporate training and and the work that that it seems that you might be doing so I'd like to talk to you about that. That's, that's the introduction. I've always given your name by trying to make it a warm introduction by finding somebody who knows somebody knows me. Now this is the wonder of LinkedIn, and I also teach some LinkedIn classes here at the library but the wonder of LinkedIn is when I'm looking for somebody to talk to for the information interview. Many times, it's a second degree connection, which means that we have a mutual connection. My first degree is their first degree. You can always talk to that person, get the referral to the second degree, and then put that person's name in the email. I was giving your name by Bill, who are both connected to a LinkedIn. I was referred to you by Samantha or Joe suggested I contact you, any of those work. Don't put all three of those. Okay, that's what I'm saying. Scripting, but these are different ideas of how you can put together a script. And you notice it. It's, it's that it's not really formal. It just needs to include things that are important. I'm looking for information about this or I'm looking for ideas about that. I'm seeking advice on. So, I look for information about your company. I'm looking for ideas about breaking into such and such a field. I'm seeking advice on classes I might take to make myself a better candidate for this field. There are all different things that you could be looking for. And that's what you're going to do your own research and figure out exactly what it is I'm trying to do here. Let me with my job search. These are different ways going to look at that question. And then, in that, what I consider to be an email, I'd like to set up a time for us to get together or talk over the phone. 15 to 20 minutes is usually standard. And I'd like to ask you some questions about your company and the value system that comes to play. Whatever it is, don't ask all the questions right there, but just talk about what, what kind of information are you looking for at an informational interview. And then with this day this time work for you. He says another time it's convenient. And then and with thanks very much I look forward to hearing from you to set up an appointment. Right, so if it's an email, they're not going to say yes right away. You're going to end with, I'm looking forward to hearing from you in response to this email. So I'm looking to hearing from you within the next couple of weeks. There's a little bit of pressure there but I think it's still very fair to put that on. Okay. So there's a little more of a how to scripting. It could be really brief. So I have a couple of examples here just to show you how, how brief it could actually be. Hi Chris. I hope this finds you well I'm Rachel, a digital marketer, looking to transition to a marketing operations role. I read your day in the life of marketing posts on demand spring. I was inspired to reach out to you. Would you be open to sharing your experiences or tips on landing a marketing ops role. Yes, Rachel. That's simple. That's when Chris may come back and say as the response here. Hi Rachel, thanks for reaching out. I'm so happy to know that post is being read. Notice that the comment here, I read your day in the life. Sorry, I read your day in the life of marketing posts. I'm giving a compliment there. And Chris is going, coming back with, I'm so happy to know that post is being read. I'd be happy to chat let me know what a good time for you is and we'll take it from there. Happy Memorial Day, Chris. It's, it's the same way you would invite someone to coffee. Right. Just want to be kind of specific and I want to learn more about something I want to. Would you be open to sharing your experiences or tips on landing a marketing room. Not asking, do you have any marketing roles opening your company. Different question. That's the one that they're going to run away from. But say I want to learn more about how to get into what you do. Very nice way to ask for advice. Again. People are very happy to give advice makes them feel good makes them feel experienced. I want to be frank though, not everybody's going to respond to this. That doesn't mean it doesn't work. It just means that there are other people who are too busy, or just don't like to talk to other people work for whatever reason. So go to the next person. And the next person. I'm Max a marketer for certified and marketing certified Salesforce admin transitioning to a business analyst role. I'd love to learn about your experiences as a business analyst that don't be. Would you be open to meeting for coffee or jumping on a short 15 minute call next week. Best Max. That simple. Response. Hi Max thanks for connecting. Happy for you to be transitioning to a business analyst role. We can meet next week for coffee or lunch to discuss in my experiences and answering questions you may have. Are you in the city next week. I'm going to just guess because I also am a cynic at heart I'm from Brooklyn, New York so originally from Brooklyn. Right away we're sarcastic and cynical. I know that there are people here in the room that are saying, Well, these are all made up. But actually the second one is not made up. This is what a client who graduated in our business analyst training program, found someone to talk to, and, and this is the response they got. So if this is real. Yes, we make up a lot of things, but just showing you that this can really happen. And how this comes from the Harvard business review. And again, this is what Harvard is also sharing with their students. Prepare and practice. So if you have your list of questions, ask them of a friend. Ask, just ask them out loud. And on a personal zoom call, you can always get your own zoom account free and record yourself and then watch back to see how you sounded or order your tape it off your phone. Keep your introduction short. You're not there to talk about yourself until they start asking questions about yourself. But I can, I can go through 30 minutes of my experience as an introduction. I've only asked for 15 minutes at their time so that's kind of silly. Right. So I want to just take a minute or less than a minute, saying who I am and why I'm there. Set the tone. Smile, warm, friendly. I always wondered what that was and it started thinking about what does a journalist do. They probe when they get an answer they say so why is that. What did you like about that. So if the person says, I really enjoy working as the data analyst can tell me more about what you like about work as a data analyst. You know, putting together information statistically be able to share it out. Okay, tell me more about the sharing out. That's like a journalist you're now asking questions on questions. You're not insulting them. You're just inquiring and deliberately test your hypotheses. Right. I thought that the jury consulting was a great thing to do as a facilitator. I'm going to talk to lawyers I'm going to bring them down, I'm going to be in front of a group. That I tested that out and found out no that's not where most of the work is. That's 5% of the work 95% of the work was gathering statistics and doing research on cases, not for me. I'm going to deliberately test those hypotheses, follow up with gratitude, not demands. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. And play the long game. Build a relationship. Would it be okay if we connected on LinkedIn. I think I'm from our conversation I think I found an article that that you might be interested in guys send that to you. Try to do something where you create that allyship. It could be really helpful. I saw a question in the chat take right away and that is, what's an appropriate subject or title to use for a messages if you're using email to reach out. Right, and it might be looking for information. I'm looking for advice on data analysis jobs, or data analysis roles. Right. I always I always try to avoid the word jobs anywhere information. But yeah, your subject matter could be, or it could be referred by that could be the subject right referred by Nina Lee. And then they've been wanting to know what was the referral, and then they would open up the email but you're right, the subject line on an email is going to be something you want them to want to open it up. I hope that help. Okay, more tips from the Harvard Business Review. These are the dos and don'ts. Principles to remember do your homework. Work background research. If you're asking them about questions. If you're asking them questions about their company. And it's information that is on the very first page of the company website. Right away they know that you're not invested. You have to show you're invested they're giving you their time. Free. Possible networking connection. You have to show that you did your due diligence. So do your homework. Do your research. Prepare a succinct explanation of your background and what you're looking for succinct is the important word here succinct concise is coming from Harvard Business Review. And then make sure that you send a thank you note at the end. There's always a thing same thing with that. After a job interview, people ask, you know, should I send a card? I mean, a whole lot card would be beautiful. Yeah, but it doesn't get to somebody right away. Particularly, people who work from home, they may never see that for a month. So email, thank yous are totally acceptable. What about the don'ts. Can't emphasize this enough. Don't go in code. Don't think that I know what I'm looking for, and I'm ready to go. Write it down. Practice answer asking questions practice introducing yourself time yourself on your introduction. Don't ask for favors. Could you speak to the hiring manager for me. Ask for advice. Could you give me some advice on what I would need to prepare. If I were able to get invited to an interview. Oh, yes, what you should have is this this this this and this. I know who the hiring manager might be, even though I haven't plugged in. I know how you managers here always looking for this this this you asked for advice. Don't ask them for a favor. At this point, you're not friends yet. And don't let one negative informational interviews sour you on the process. I gave you my two experiences, one where I learned what not to do what what job to not pursue. And the other where I got the job at JVS. I think that, you know, I just know it's real. When I talked about this at a company meeting. There were at least three other people at JVS that said that they got their jobs through informational interviews. So, it's absolutely real. At JVS we used to have a quarterly panel of discussion. And the executive director Abby say who I mentioned, she's the real person. She works actually for for the governor's office in workforce development. But she would invite people from different industries and talk to them about why they give informational interviews. And what their expectation is if someone's asking for an information. They would fill the room with 60 people who then also had questions and what about this and why would they do this and, and they explained what they would do. And one really stood out to me, a gentleman. I don't know which company was from what his role was. But he said he is always interested in giving someone an information interview. But they're always going to be between eight and 830 in the morning. And Abby said, Why is that the best time for you she said yeah, that's my commute time when I have to drive into the office it usually takes me about 45 minutes. So I could do an informational interview from the car. And we can have a great conversation so it's a phone interview. But that's his time and he's giving you his commute time. That's good for him. Good for you. Everybody's happy. So, the thing is, he, I mean he could have been listening to a book on tape he could have been listening to the radio could have been listening to good music. He's going to listen to you, because you asked, you asked nicely that's the right way. So, that that's why I know that these things actually work. So, here are the principles of what to do, and what to not do. I don't have a lot more but I have two really important slides to help. So you saw a slide earlier that said here's a script how do you, how do you reach out to someone. But then, what do you do when you're there. How do you manage this. So here are the logistics of your information. Particularly since many informational many interviews now are going to be face to face. A lot of us still on on a virtual environment like this, but more and more we're seeing we work with recruiters all the time. And with higher managers, and we know that people are in fact, asking people to come into the office, sometimes in a job interview. The first interview might be virtual. The second third interview might be face to face. And in a, in an informational interview it's up to the other person. They may say let's me in and Google me, you know, Microsoft me, they might say let's meet in zoom. So, you have that but you also they might say I wanted to come into the office. Okay. So if you're going into the office, or you're going to meet somewhere you need to know where you're meeting and how long will take to get there that's the part of logistics. Now I went through five years as a road warrior I used to teach classes in different cities all over the United States and Canada. And when I knew I was going into a city that I hadn't been to before. Check into my hotel, and then I would take my car and drive from the hotel to where I thought I was going to be teaching to find out how long will it take me to get there. Do I have the right directions. Right so I would do all that so I wouldn't show up late to teaching. And then I would also go to the front desk and say okay, I found out that I could drive from here to that office in 20 minutes. I'm going to be leaving in the morning. How long is it going to take you know tell me take you at least 35 and 40 minutes. Okay, but now I knew how to get there. So, you need to have clear directions how long will it take to get there. Are they near a park station are they near muni are they near AC transit, all those things you need to know. Do you have a backup plan for transportation in case the buses late the ferries late, your ride falls through your car breaks down. What's the backup plan for transportation, or what's the emergency contact number you have for that person. Right, so you might actually be able to send them a quick email using your phone, get something in place for them. They may actually share their phone number. You might have that. Have you arranged for reliable childcare. It might be a zoom meeting, but it's different when you have your, your toddler on your lap, or your dog barking right next to you. So, you want to make sure that you're clearing the path, just like a job interview to have the least amount of distraction. If you're going to a meeting, what will you bring with you pens paper for note taking. I bolded the words note taking, because it's really important to take notes. If you're standing in front of somebody. Take notes, keep making eye contact but write things down and look up and write things down, whether it's a zoom meeting or whether it's face to face. They're going to give you information or advice, write it down. They're going to give you the name of somebody who you should talk to, and then you could then say, Oh, do you have their contact information, write it down. So make sure you have no paper with you in order to make this thing work, not just be a one time thing. The logistics is do you know whom you will be meeting. Who are they. Now that you researched the company or the field and you found somebody know more about them. Check them out on on LinkedIn check them out do Google search on it. Find out more about who they are so that you have a way to talk about things that might be more personal. And make sure that you have something to keep time. So, very important that you run the meeting. So you need to have a watch your put put your your phone down in front of you so that you can put a timer on for 15 minutes or 20 minutes, and you can let them know times up, unless you want to go. That's logistics. That's one thing that's also really important, you're going to be talking to another human being. So what's important when you're talking to another human being. Yeah, the information, your preparation. The other thing that's really important is your attitude. That's going to give them the impression of whether you're serious, whether you're warm and friendly, whether you're going to do something with this information I've been sharing, whether they're wasting their time or not wasting your time. A lot of that is from attitude. So, are you walking tall. Try to make a great impression. You just met this person for the first time. Make sure you're getting that first impression view. How do you practice your smile. I know. I smile a lot. I don't necessarily have to practice a lot. But sometimes we do need to practice a little bit, because we're, we're so much in thought. Right, we're thankful is the next question I'm going to ask once the, and we start looking like this right we're serious. The forehead lines are there with being real serious well, but be be more open look eyes are open. Don't scrunch up. So that's the practice smiling. It's real. Even if it sounds silly. It's real. Is your body language positive and alert. Now I have to tell you, if there's anybody in this room who thinks they might be my age, which is old person. Okay. We especially have to have body language that is positive and alert. Because one of the stereotypes of working with older people. What I mean by 50 plus basically is that they're, they're not really with it. They're not up to date. Well be up to date. Okay, stand firm, even if you're sitting like I am, but not like this. Right, like this. So you want to have your body language, positive and alert, so that you're really starting to make a connection with this person. You're getting face to face. Do you have a firm handshake. It's not this kind of thing. It's this kind of thing. Okay, don't squeeze their hand. Don't show that you're stronger than that. That's not what you're trying to do. But seriously, you want to get a you want to get a good grip. Are you friendly, positive and enthusiastic enthusiasm is really important. I'm really excited about talking with you. And I thank you so much for your time. This is really important to me. I really wanted to learn this and looking about your information and I saw that you worked also with this company in this company, when I looked at your, your LinkedIn profile. I think you have exactly what I'm looking for to get more information so I really appreciate it. Now they're excited about sharing information for me. So that's all part of attitude can make eye contact. I appreciate your honest and trustworthy. Everybody here is honest and trustworthy, but you also have to show it a lot of that is an attitude. Finally, you know, we said, sit up, make eye contact. Everybody's real stiff. No, the idea is okay. You got that you got what you're supposed to be doing. Take a deep breath. I used to be a yoga instructor. I had a lot of my collective background. I had a yoga school in San Francisco way back in the 70s. Make sure that before you walk into the meeting with them, you take that deep breath, and you let it out and relax your shoulders, and you can still have a really positive and alert attitude, but still be relaxed inside. It's normal to be nervous. It's a learning experience and I have to tell you when people say how do I get over the nerves. I always tell them you won't. I've worked with theater professionals also back in my history and you know talk to people about you're so comfortable getting out there on the stage and you're oh no. I am, I am shaking before I walk out on the stage. But I take that nervous energy and turn it into enthusiasm. I take that nervous energy and use it. So it's the same thing you're going to be working with somebody. You're nervous. I'm going to give you a secret. They're nervous also. They don't know who you are. So they're not saying they're going oh yeah, whatever you want, I'm the expert. They're nervous. They don't know what questions you're going to be asking them. They're hoping to do a good job for you and for them. You're going to be nervous. That's okay. Try to see this as a learning experience and that's where the deep breath, relaxing the shoulders can really help center you and get you ready to do a good job with this. Okay. I'm going to stop here. I have two more slides I think, but I want to see if there are any other questions about informational interviewing. I think that really is not more content, but I'm going to give you some resource material. I think what I use to put together my presentations, and I'm going to give you a couple of links to articles that could be helpful to you. So once again, if you have any questions, I'm available. Oh, sorry. Sorry, Mr. Robbins. So it sounds like you're saying obviously it's what you know, but the most important thing is who you know or who you know, know, or who you know, know, know down the world just to get the information just to put yourself out there. And if it doesn't go, well, let's, we hope it goes well, but if you, if it's not the most successful thing you've ever done in your life, that's okay. You learn and keep doing it. Absolutely. You're absolutely right on Jennifer. And the idea is, except for the Pope, you said it's not what you know. It is who you know, and who you know who may know somebody who may know somebody who may know somebody. Absolutely true. But the idea is what you know, that's what you're asking them for. So when you're done, you now know a little more. And that's really going to help accelerate your job search because now you know, like I learned jury consulting, don't waste my time. I'm also going to learn. Oh, JVS. Oh, nonprofit is different than for profit. This was something really interesting to me. I will look into other things. So I might then look into Rubicon and some other nonprofit workforce development organizations. But that was the what I learned from that informational interview. So you need to know, what is it that I want to know? And then, what do I know that I might want to talk to? Yeah, so put those two things together, but thank you for that, Jennifer. Absolutely. Who else is out there asking questions? Yeah, David, I just wanted to, I got a DM from Barbara. She has to go, but she wanted to thank you for the presentation. Oh, pleasure, absolute pleasure. So let me let me finish it up in case other people have to leave. Let me show my screen again. Okay, we talked about attitude. So let's let's finish this up with some resource material for you. This is from UC Berkeley's career center on informational interviewing. Some of this is where I got the material, but this will get you a little deeper into where my slides came from. And then how to get the most out of an information interview. And this is from the Harvard Business Review. The date on it's actually 2016, but I have to tell you 2016 2023 pre pandemic post pandemic. It's the same thing. The only thing that would have been different is in the pandemic, you wouldn't have talked about shaking hands with anybody. That's not wouldn't have talked about, but pre pandemic and now we're kind of post pandemic. So after you shake hands with them when you leave, take out some, you know, what it's all good. So I just want to I want to point out that there, there's more information and I want to give you that but here's the thing that really makes job search successful for you. You can sit through this presentation you can come to the link to presentations I'm going to do will do presentations for people who are 50 plus who are in job search we can do all these presentations. They don't mean anything unless you do something. So adults don't learn by watching or listening. Oh, yeah, I learned a lot. I watched the YouTube channel. You actually don't learn until you do it. And you say, Oh, I didn't do that. What can I do better. You may have to go back to the YouTube channel and watch it again. The point is, you now have to create a to do list for yourself. Right. What are you going to do. Are you going to research career paths. Do you already know your career path well I need to look at companies that are in my career path. And if I find a company, I then can look for people in that company I might be able to talk with. I don't know anybody well take a look again at some of the slides you don't need to know them as long as you could send them an email or send them a LinkedIn link, a LinkedIn message. Okay, so there are different ways you could do it but you have to do some of that research you have to do some of the steps that we talked about earlier in the presentation, but you have to create your own to do list. Talking to people, you know, know you is a great way to start. If any of you are going to networking events. If you happen to bump into somebody and everybody's wearing their little name tag, right and you see a company name that that's interesting. Gee, what is ABC company, and they tell you and you go. Does your company hire any unix developers. Yeah, we've been using units. Oh, do you think that we could set something up where I could just talk to a little more about your company. That wasn't hard. No blood no broken bones. It's easy. I'm kidding it's not easy, but it's what you need to do to move forward, but you need to come up with your own to do list, whether it's. I've got to look for the people or gee I have some idea of here are five people I'm thinking about send draft an email. Don't even send an email to say you know, let me see what it would look like. Okay, baby steps, but if you don't put something on the to do list, then this was just nice meeting you I appreciate you coming. It was great. You have to do it. I'm doing taking a little bit of a risk, and then reflecting on what they did. Did it work did it not work. How can I do it better next time. That's what adult learning is about. And I'm assuming that people in the room or adults. I'm going to encourage you to take some action. After this presentation, you'll get the slide set you can review it again, get the articles that are there you'll find more articles that are referenced in those articles. Information interviewing it's interesting. These are the seven essentials of job search that we cover in JVS yours information interviewing isn't here. And that's because it is part of research. And it's part of network. But it's also some of the skills of job interviewing. And it's some of the skills of putting together your marketing material. So that's why I consider it to gold standard it's a little bit of a number of different things. All of it to be there to be helpful to accelerate your job search. Okay, I think I do have a contact slide that's going to come with your slide set. Let me share this out just you know what you're going to be looking for. So, if you need to reach out. My work email address is D Robbins at jvs.org. If you want to find me on LinkedIn, it's linked in calm slash in slash DG Robbins. Again, I hope this was helpful and I hope you put together to do list. And I will keep this open for any questions that you might have but otherwise I'll, I'll turn this over to Lori and Angela and say thank you all for coming and hope this was helpful. Is any of you have any questions for David. I see a thank you from Nina for the presentation. If we don't have any question. Take. Oh, we have a question from your please go ahead and unmute yourself. Hello, Mr. David. Thank you very much for the very good presentation. That's very helpful. Good content. I just have one quick question. Just like you. Just like your experience. I've worked in a corporate for organizations for about six years. Most of them were hospitals, hospitals, standard hospitals like UCS. And then later, finally, I had the opportunity to work in a private health health insurance organization and the way they did it is very different from the hospitals. They're more into business. They're not, they're not too concerned about the rules, regulations, more focused on making money. I also went to school and graduated with health science from a university. And putting all the things together your presentation and my experience through informational interviews. How do since I saw both sides of the reality. How do I go from where I am to my future position using informational interview. I relate very much to the jury consultant example. But just to summarize, how can I summarize put together everything with this presentation and move one step forward. I think you have to make a determination of which of those different experiences that you've had that you'd like to research going forward. Right. If you think that, you know, I really like the hospital better than the private organization. And then what you should be doing is possibly talking to people inside hospitals or medical centers to find out, you know, what what's happening these days health care has changed over the years. Pretty drastically if you look now, there are a lot of street corner clinics that that are part of center health street corner clinics that are part of even Kaiser. So, you know, maybe there's an opportunity to work in something like that. So the idea is to talk to somebody in the organization to find out what's new in health care you know I used to work in hospital environment years ago. But I'd love to find out, you know, what you think is new and what is it that I would need to do a little more research and to see if this is really good for me. I just want to tell you more about what they're what they think is happening in the field. There's still nothing wrong with going to the private organization, as I said, even though they don't follow the rules, you know, and talk to them about what's what opportunities are there, and that might be like a jury consulting, you realize, I really don't want to be there anymore. That's not what I want. I want to go into this other thing maybe there's something in the middle that you haven't heard about that you'll find out about when you have an informational somebody who's in the field currently might be able to give you some other things to think about and other opportunities that that becomes the hidden job market. You know, positions that you never even considered because you didn't know that they existed. You might find that out in these discussions. I don't know if that's exactly helpful but from what you said I think that's the way to move forward. It's just the idea of getting to talk to people in the field you're looking at, or in a particular healthcare organization that you're interested in, and then try to decide, what do I want to find out from them and come up with that question set. You're welcome. You know, and for everybody, sometimes this is not an easy thing to do alone. We always recommend that you have an accountability buddy that you have a support person who's also in job search possibly, or somebody who's no longer in job search, but somebody who can bounce ideas over. In my second yard situation, you might say, I want to talk to you know, to set our health. I have these questions. Show those questions to somebody and say what do you think of these questions if I'm trying to find out a B and C, and they might say that second question. It's a little abrupt and forward. Why don't you think of saying it this way or that way. It's always good to work with somebody else or work with a job coach and the library has incredible job coaches who could also help you formulate what you're looking for in an international interview. Okay. Thank you for the question. If there are no more, I'll turn it back over to Lori. Thank you so much, David. We really appreciate you taking the time to share with us how to be successful in informational interviewing conversations. And I also want to thank everyone for joining the program. I hope you find the presentation informative and helpful to you. We will send out an evaluation survey together with David slide deck and the link to the recording later today. Please give us your feedback so we can continue to improve. Again, thank you everyone have a wonderful rest of your day. Bye bye now.