 And welcome to the Matrix of Peace show hosted by Fink Tech, Hawaii. I'm your host, Phyllis Blyse, and the CEO of Peace through Commerce. Our guest today, one is calling in from a village near Nazareth in Israel. She is Palestinian, and her name is Sylvia Margia, who serves as a co-director of the Peace Leadership Program at the Radical Aliveness Institute. Our second guest is Ann Bradney, who is the founder of the Radical Aliveness Institute. We are discussing decision making with the radical aliveness process through the lens of the Matrix of Peace whole systems model of society. This is an approach that we introduced on November 3rd in our Matrix of Peace show with Sylvia's Israeli co-director, Nitzan Joy Gordon. In this show, we will be concentrating on achieving heart justice in Israel and Palestine. So to begin, aloha Sylvia. Oh, thank you. And Ann, aloha. Merhaba and hello and shalom Phyllis. Okay. It's nice to be here. Very glad to have you. And Sylvia, I'd like to start with you and do a little chicken. You are now in Nazareth area. There is bombing going on around you, and it has been now for about 60 days. Would you just please check in with us and let us know what you're experiencing? Maybe I will just fix something small. The bombing, it's not around me, but it's like really nearby all over and mostly especially in the southern of Israel. So for me personally, in my closer environment, I feel safe, but I must feel pain for all the people that's now moving out of their homes because of this reality of war from the southern of Israel and from Gaza. So in a way, I feel that it's not in my own closed circle, but definitely all around me and in my hometown. Yes. Yes. And we'll talk more about that. So thank you so much for calling in and that I'm glad our connection is working. And I would, Mike, if you'd call up slide one, I want to let the audience know that Sylvia Ann and co-director of the peace leadership program Needs on Gordon, they are together introducing a program with Palestinian and Israeli men and women that began before the bombing, working on peace building, dialogue, and healing. And then when the bombing started, they continued the modules that you are delivering. And Ann, if you would, would you introduce for us what that program is? Yeah, thank you, Phyllis. Our program, the radical aliveness peace leadership program, is a program that is working with leaders, people from the West Bank, all over Israel, people from different perspectives, people from different backgrounds. And our intention is to use this process to raise awareness, to bring connection and to help people make different choices around the conflict by being together, by knowing each other, by witnessing each other's pain and by learning tools and skills that help them actually navigate the world very differently. Okay. And you told me you do you prepare the curriculum and the homework and the content and Sylvie, you and Needs on are holding the group for Ann when she's there and when she's not there and lead these groups in person. And could you speak a little bit to what your experience is with this program, as opposed to other forms of peace and reconciliation programs that you're aware of? How this is different, better in any way? Yeah, I think that one thing that it's the most important difference from other program, it's like to listen to the wisdom of the heart where all of our feelings are in and being willing to really be together with our all range of feelings and vulnerability in front of the other that mostly we will cut out of our life in the crisis of conflict. So for me it's like connected to the wisdom of the heart, connect to the wisdom of the wounds, to really for me what is like meaningful is that there is something very valuable in sharing our pain, our wounds and and really access and new information which mostly we are not allowing ourselves to be present, especially in the middle of conflict. If it makes sense, like I think what you're saying Sylvie that feels so important is that the world is complex, conflict is complex, people are complex and in this program we're really challenging the binary, good, bad, right, wrong narrative and holding a space for people to have their very powerful feelings. This includes rage and hate and everything in order to get to a deeper place of listening, hearing what's going on for other people, understanding the complexity of what each other is living rather than buying into a very simplistic view of the world that the media and the powers that be want us to have. So it takes tremendous strength and courage and we have a very committed and willing group who's still saying we can't wait to get together. Let me just reframe for the audience when you say we and the group these are Israeli and Palestinian men and women that and in the room will be Jews, Palestinian Christians, Palestinian Muslims, Palestinian Druze and West Bank and West Bank. Well I okay I thought about Palestinian and Gaza and the West Bank. Not from Gaza but but there are Arabs, Palestinian Arabs living in Israel there are also Palestinians living in the West Bank and we have all of that in our program. So they bring in generations of conflict and pain. Yeah we said in our last show for those who want to go back and review it that we're trying to change the pattern that's been set and described by Richard Rohr around pain which has not been transformed is being transmitted generationally and you want in this generation for this group to break that pattern and transform the pain so it is not transmitted and then and this is where I wanted to add who else might be in the room then the decision makers around what to do in societies where we are all living will come together making new kinds of decisions about how to live together how to how to share values how to cooperate with beliefs and stop solving problems with violence and instead Sylvie you spoke about them drawing on new wisdom the wisdom of the heart. Yeah you know I feel that sometimes in the conflict the easiest or the pattern of going back to your like to be one sided and I think that the heart have like much more room for new information than what we have in our mind and I think that what is missing in our word is like balance in between our ability to digest information through our cognition our mind and mostly now being more like able to digest information through our heart so for me it's a completely different way of of the gaining information or study and and really or different even being as a human being I feel that we forgot that especially in the middle of conflict just to like allowed how we are saying and like and now at those days I feeling it more that really allowing my heart to feel to break down and being able to expand or stretch so in a way I feel it's completely a different way valuable way of of of studying or or gaining new information. Yeah and what there were a couple things you said Sylvie that feel so important to say here Phyllis is that when we allow the feelings the deep emotions that are so many times not allowed in other processes because people are afraid of them we welcome them we're not afraid of them that those feelings open us in ways to a willingness to be with others and to take in new information and then we can change our mind and so we're using information that comes from this heart space to change our stories and as a whole group of human beings to walk into a different future together which we cannot get to on our own we have to do it together we have to use the wisdom of the whole to create this new world and these new stories and that is what we're doing in our program that is how we're holding space and that's what we're doing creating a new narrative creating a new hope for the future one that hasn't been seen before one that has not been seen we have to do it together because the powers that we are going to create war and violence and use old stories to keep us separate and we're really coming together that's our intention so one of my great intentions for this show is that we have the we being the decision makers at in the kinesis in the palestinian authority in the who the hamas in congress around the world that they that this be required a required process and practice before they open their mouths that they learn how to come into union with the wisdom of their hearts before you know you said silvi human being before doing you know that's what i wanted to say when you said that you aren't a native aren't a native english speaker and you're reminding us that are in our word we begin as human beings and this process evolves that being and and opens this up to that that unlimited heart space of wisdom which i think needs to happen with every decision maker who's pulling a trigger pushing a button or sending people to war and i think women need to be in the room at least 50 represented if not more to bring in not men and women genetically but the but the ethos and the feminine wisdom to be brought into the room alongside the the male wisdom that one not be dominating the other even in terms of convening the decision makers and having their presence in the room so that's my goal for this show that it be seen by the un by decision makers by the media and by academia in corporate boardrooms k-12 education that everywhere that people are making decisions either as voters or leaders that they adopt this new way of being with the radical aliveness process and so and we have a couple slides here and i want the audience to know and is going to introduce with silvi some of the core principles at a very high level of what the framework is for getting into that room side by side with the other or in conflict and then we're going to show a video of some of the on the ground work with the men and women who've allowed us to videotape some of this relationship emotion work then we're going to talk about it a little bit and connect some of the dots for you about decision making so and and mike if and could you start talking a little bit about the principles of the radical aliveness process and we have some slides but don't don't bring that up mike and tell and calls for the first slide well yeah i'd love to see the principles there okay go ahead about them um radical aliveness we say is a non-expert process and what that means is that we don't have we're acknowledging that everyone in the room is a leader everyone has wisdom everyone has information that's needed for us to move forward so we're not teaching people a skill set that says here's how you get to healing and here's what healing looks like and here's what the answers are we're saying we don't know so the principles of radical aliveness as for all of us are we know we don't know we're cultivating a non-shaming heart and attitude and what this means to me is that we're welcoming everything that needs to come into the space to be held understood validated transformed we're willing to be changed by our encounters this is a really important part of our work that when we meet with others they will expand us we are coming from our own narrow perceptual filter and the beauty of being with other human beings who we are different from is that we get new information and we get more awareness so this is also a big awareness growing process when we were preparing for the show that you were very clear with me and and I have done this work on the ground with you and with Sylvie over the last 10 years and what what I'm invited to participate in is an emerging decision-making process emerging wisdom no one comes into the room with answers no they come in with their being not even the question yet we're trying to discover what the answers are yes we do that in an emergent wisdom way yes I have new intelligence into the room sorry go ahead that's okay no but you were asking about the principles and and the idea of the principles is that what is a what's a frame that can hold an emerging process and so the principles are the foundation of our work and what guides us in how we hold this not knowing this emergent process all the different feelings and information that are present in everyone in the room so the principles which I already said the other one is saying yes to everything which means saying yes to everything within us with an intention for more awareness and consciousness so not not censoring anything that is coming up in us and I can't read these fillers okay number one a non-shaming heart attitude and then knowing I don't know yep and number three welcoming multiple perspectives but that one's very important and I didn't say that yet that the world is so complex there is not one way of being and a deep value of the work that we're doing is honoring different perspectives just like we need biodiversity we need a diversity of thoughts and ideas and perspectives I believe I think Sylvie does too to walk into our future together we need all this wisdom there's not one way that's going to get us into a new future so we welcome multiple perspectives what else for being willing to be changed I talked saying yes to everything yes do now I don't know whether this is getting into your three principles for kind of the the rules of being in the room together but six is do no harm and seven is do your part yeah and so the do no harm we know we're going to do harm because we keep we're not going to be able to see people perfectly or understand people perfectly but for me that means as a vulnerable leader I am willing to stay when you let me know that I've caused you harm and I'm willing to listen to what you're bringing to me rather than be the leader that says I have the answers and whatever happens in that more hierarchical space and the do your part is about taking action action in the world so we're not about being in a room and just having this experience and it doesn't translate back out into our lives we are always holding the awareness of the world and our lives and our ability when we change ourselves to go back out into our lives into our families into our communities and make a difference do something different yeah yeah so we have three rules of engagement that I think the audience is going to see are very very important when we then show a short video of the work in the room that the men and women are doing you want to talk do you want me to read them do you do you want to read them Sylvie yeah do you want to say something Sylvie yeah say anything about the engagement rules or the principles yeah I feel like it's like a mostly the most important maybe that thing is like don't hurt yourself like and hurting yourself by physically I think that sometimes we are confused about the the the meaning of hurting one another because sometimes when we're speaking we might hurt feelings of others or even others will hurt my feeling but it's like about really not hurting physically one another oh it's so small the right thing so you did it you said don't hurt yourself don't hurt another person and the space also just space and and just not breaking things and just keep the space which holding the container they also feel as a safe space and and and all other things are as and say are welcome like it's really we are welcoming it you know I feel like there is no other space especially now you know when we hold a meeting for the group during this war most of the reactions that we the feedback that we got from people that there is no other space that they can really bring their voices especially at those days of war because the experience is that you can't say anything and it's not safe to say anything or to bring your voice so in a way it's like for me and for some others it's the only space that you can really feel free to do everything to say everything to feel everything to scream it out to show it out to cry it out all the way as you are saying and and at the same time just don't hurt one another and the space and yourself physically so in a way a large space to work in right well we're going to show that in the audience I've I've experienced being in the room with what the audience is going to see and I want to just say I was sort of surprised to see and bring out bats that you could put in your hand to you know really express your anger there are blankets there are rugs there are tables to put between people physically people need to when they see this to know no one's being physically hurt but they are witnessing or expressing how they feel about the conflict and about the pain for themselves and in some cases Ann and Sylvie I heard the men and the women saying they were expressing the pain that they saw their grandparents feeling their parents their children it's like the people in the room are channeling and expressing the rage the anger the hate on behalf of the village the community and Sylvie and what's coming up for you today what can you share with us starting with you Sylvie with this safe haven video of the work that was being done a few years ago you know maybe I would like to take advantage of this platform as you say to speak to all the leaders yes imagine if we can really feel I think that if each leader can feel and I think that we will be more aware and more sensitive about other suffering so for me like witnessing this video is a reminder so if each human being each leader each part of this conflict will have the safety to feel all these feelings anger even hatred and grief I feel that we will not be able to harm other human being so for me this video is a reminder for this truth of the and because you know I'm just thinking about why why I should feel like why why we should have the space to bring all this feeling and you know I am all the time saying that when I lost my brother I became a better human being that really tends to feel more for other other human being suffering like I don't want to witness any parent but losing his child because I can really connect to my own feeling or even like witnessing sister that is losing her brother and and and I'm just thinking about that as a children very early in our age we learn to cut ourselves from our experience of feeling of feeling what is going on around us and within ourselves and in a way I feel that we are disconnected from our wisdom which I'm talking about and the more that I'm allowing myself to feel I feel that I can be numb to other suffering and I really wish that all these leaders will just have the courage to feel because if they will do I think that we can stop this conflict I feel I think I know that this is the only way so I will share maybe also that earlier I like I shared that safe haven to me today it's something new like because of what is going on now like I heard the journalist that sharing her loss of the people from Gaza and she said that now all these people that are getting killed are building a new heaven a new city of Gaza in heaven so in a way I feel that we need the courage to feel we need the courage really you know I wish that we will not be one sided that we can really feel for all human being I know that it's hard I know I know as a Palestinian living in Israel how much it's hard to feel for everything everybody but I feel that this is the only way to create new reality and there is no shortcut because it's hurting it's hard to feel so much it's really hard especially in war but this is the only way and for me that's what we are doing in radical aliveness to feel safe and to feel everything and to feel safe to feel for the other because we can do it I really feel that we can do it I believe I believe in human being and I believe in us as Israelis and Palestinians that we can feel for one another and stand together to stop it thank you thank you Sylvie you are doing it we saw you doing it yeah and Anne what's coming up for you you're on mute when I listened to Sylvie I I feel right there with her and and so committed to this process because my experience is that when people have the opportunity when they get in rooms with other people when they feel what they have to feel when they have the space for this this radical space for feeling these kinds of feelings and being witness to each other that they are changed you can't go back out and look at the other as not a human being and so for me when we get people together in rooms like this what I see is that a certain kind of connection happens and a certain kind of willingness to see each other and be together in new ways and it's I I find that people are so excited and so hopeful when they're given this opportunity to say oh my god I never met a Palestinian I never met a Jew I never knew that you felt the way I feel I never knew that I could love you I never knew really these are the words people are saying never knew that I could love you and reach out to you in the middle of a war so for me this is a miracle that this group is as Sylvie said having the courage whatever we've been taught the feeling is weakness that vulnerability is weakness I am here to say that is not the truth it takes tremendous courage to feel the depth of our feelings and to be willing to be with others in the depth of their feelings and when our hearts open to that level of feeling and pain what happens often is the whole group will eventually end up in their deepest pain with each other looking at each other bombs falling outside and getting together and singing a song together while the bombs are falling I mean it's it's like being in the presence of miracles non-stop so I hope we're making sense you you make sense to me and and it's interesting you've had this group already started and had you met twice before the bombing and then and you flew Israel after the bombing started oh no um we had met twice and then Sylvie and I and my husband were in Sinai when the bombing happened and Sylvie and I came back to Israel and we just stayed and worked with lots of people and we had a zoom meeting with our group and I'm going back in January and I'm spoken to a lot of people in the group who are so hopeful and excited about meeting again and we have a we have a group of people that are saying this is the only place I feel hope you know like it's a it's a hopeful space and people are wanting to continue so it kind of speaks to the power of this word that we met twice that we only met twice before the war and that people are still saying when are we going to be together I can't wait you know the Palestinian and Jewish members of the group yeah our group our group wants to be together our group is speaking to each other our group is wanting to find ways to meet in the middle of this war so that tells you something right oh it does and and I'd like to connect some dots here from the state building level of where your work fits on a model that we have created at peace through commerce of the society and if we can take a look at slide five Mike this if we were to diagram a society we think that this model does an incredibly powerful job of taking a complex system like human beings living together in societies and converting it into a useful model to re to keep us anchored to where true north is to where we stand and where the gap is between separation and intersection and peace and what I what the the audience is seeing here is a simple then diagram with comprised of the typical three circles make up the three sectors of any society no matter what level whether they're at barter and trade or whether it's a complex commercial capitalistic or communist economic system in the private sector at the top there's always a government we call that the public sector shown in the blue circle and there's always civil society shown in the aqua or the peach colored circle so those are the three basic sectors of every society and when they work intersect when they work together they can co-create what you'll see here as prosperity when the private sector is getting the right kind of laws and support from government it can create long-term prosperity but prosperity alone does not lead to peace money alone does not so shifting to the bottom to the bottom intersection when the public sector is modified that's our governments that is our g that is our even our terrorist leaders any who's ever in this the position of making the rules for society when the civil society sector is able to keep them honest and fair what we call that the intersection of the public and civil society sectors you can see there the intersection gets to justice so you can have laws but they may not be just when the civil society sector has a voice human rights and civil rights then you get into the intersection of justice and we say that that's good but it's not enough you can throw money at peace you can throw laws and justice at peace but we still have not experienced long-term peace even in areas of relative quiet without sustainable behaviors sustainable practices and that's where we move up to the third intersection between as you can see between more it's showing up as the intersection of the private sector behaving responsibly towards its employees its team members and the planet and that's where the civil society sector keeps the corporations honest that allows capitalism to operate as my colleagues at conscious capitalism like to say as conscious capitalist you don't need to throw the baby out of capitalism with and with the bathwater of bad actors you could we could move into consciousness and that leads to sustainability and this model suggests that when you have prosperity and justice and sustainable behavior in everyday life you can then support the middle supra intersection of sustainable peace and so there's a model and there's something I haven't talked about yet that's the yellow globe around it all and we call that the consciousness fear and that makes up both the peaceful feelings as well as hate and anger and as in order to shift society from the outside sectors into the intersections we need peace supporting behavior feelings values and beliefs and that's where we pinpoint where the work you're doing at radical aliveness institute and also silvi you're working with together beyond words well let's go to the without that work we've got something like slide six without the consciousness work we have in the case of israel and palestine each one thinking at one at one it's having a grabbing a piece of earth and what happens to earth it's blown up and yet with your work maybe we could let me take it move into slide seven we can see how there are differences today in how israel is working in terms of modeling we can see israel has active public private and civil society sectors it's enjoying a certain level of prosperity justice and sustainability where in Gaza and in parts of the west bank those sectors are still not intercepting they need the support and you can see there that from a modeling standpoint they're living within the consciousness sphere but they're not enjoying intersectionality and let's move to the next slide this is where the work that you're doing on the ground in consciousness you're growing you're developing empathy listening trust and shifting at least the public sector governments of israel and palestine hopefully we could have them shifting into a consciousness of heart justice so that palestine can move into heart justice with israel and they can together find ways to create prosperity and sustainability for both societies they can work intersectionally and by the way congress the united states is sending money into the area other all other countries are sending money into the area and yet there is not a balance between israel and palestine's enjoyment of justice heart justice and prosperity it and let's make clear that the government doesn't represent all the people on either sides and we feel a sense of powerlessness when people unprepared in a whole hearted whole whole consciousness way they're they're struggling to make decisions without a full deck i would say and that's a the vernacular of us silvi um not working with the full deck not not out to sing their heart wisdom and and just to draw i would like we have about six minutes we have a few minutes we could share of how the people coming out of your radical aliveness process feel when they've done it it's just three minutes we're going to take a quick look because it makes the point of how change making this process is not for just the people in the room but for it would we can believe that our decision makers would be as transformed i've been to many therapeutic workshops and many jewish arabic meetings and this meeting has been right at the top in both categories it's been amazing the the group of people that got together and facilitation the work that has been done and i've really been touched it's way beyond my expectations thank you this workshop for me the interesting and the good part was that even though we were in the room different people people who believe different things people who see the world in a different way we found that it was possible to talk to each other i was fascinated to see how people realize that they don't want to hurt other people and from that location by the fact that we so like took off all the outside stories and went down to the essence of the pain people listened to the essence of the pain of the others really tried to connect to it and could create a space a place in which we tried very hard not to add to that pain and talking as Israeli-Palestinian conflict it was fascinating to see Zionists Palestinians being able to respect each other respect each other's needs and wishing wishing to respect those needs and without having to agree on the story and that for me was really special it's a feeling when there are things that maybe maybe because of the community that I come from so even though in the family there is really a feeling, I feel it too, but to feel it is really it is so special to me not to think again to think before even to say something to the people, to say good but not to feel it, really it is said that there are things that feel and feel very like I saw things that just about things that maybe I don't really feel, it's amazing it's amazing to get the feeling of everyone who was here, a person and a person all right I am so glad that you captured those moments and and Sylvie you were both there and I wonder is there anything that we have just maybe 30 seconds left that you want to that's been left unsaid to this point Sylvie? For me there is the inner call for all Israelis and Palestinians to ask all of us like to step out of the illusion of separation one thing I learned from my life that it's illusion we are not separated and and I really feel that now we need to step into this new space that we are not separated and my peace is bonded with your peace and this is the only truth that we need as a survival need as a human being to to understand Thank you Sylvie it is life and death I'm so appreciated and Ann I'm going to have to leave it there I think you spoke for all of us Sylvie thank you to the audience you have been watching The Matrix of Peace show at Think Tech Hawaii I'm your host Phyllis Bleece the CEO of Peace Through Commerce with me today have been Sylvie Margiea a co-director of the peace leadership program at the Radical Aliveness Institute working out of Israel and our guest Ann Bradney the founder of the Radical Aliveness Institute and we have been exploring how to access heart justice through radical aliveness mahalo Sylvie and Ann for joining us and mahalo to our viewers come back for our next show I'm your host Phyllis Bleece Aloha