 In 101, we talked just kind of as a recap a bit about the resources available, the levers that get pulled to make affordable housing, to develop affordable housing. And right at the end, I asked you to think during lunch about the kind of the implications, like great, we have all this stuff, we have laws against discrimination, but people still get discriminated against in these other ways. We're trying to get to start thinking about how, as Chad mentioned, housing is about people. It's not about buildings, right? It's about people. And we heard a lot of numbers and saw these slides and it's just important to remember that housing is about people and their daily true lived experience. And so for this session, we're going to talk more about putting into practice those things we talked about in 101, both via hearing from some folks from their lived experience. They're going to share, as they say, in 12-step rooms their experience, strength and hope with us. And we're also going to hear in the immediate from Cindy Reed, who works at Cathedral Square. I'll let her tell you what they do, but I'll tell you that Cindy was the chair of the board at VAHC when I started, and she was an absolutely invaluable resource about affordable housing development. So really a wonderful opportunity for all of us to hear what she's going to share with us. And then at the end of the session, we'll have time for discussion and questions and answers and a little more interactive. So if that sounds good to everybody, I will pass the floor on to Cindy Reed from Cathedral Square. And there's plenty of seats up here if anyone wants to move closer up. And how do I advance it? And you can give me a 10 minute. All right. Nice to see everyone. And again, there's more seats up here, so come on in and have a seat. So thanks, David, for that intro. And I'm Cindy Reed. I'm the director of housing development at Cathedral Square. So let's see. OK. So Cathedral Square is a nonprofit housing and services organization. We're 45 years old. We create and maintain quality affordable housing with services for older adults and people with disabilities. We serve, well, I'm not going to read the slides. That's a boring thing to do. And today I'm going to talk about a case study, Bayview Crossing in South Hero, which is a 30-unit new housing community for older adults in South Hero. We just opened recently. And it's a case study to talk about how we can support the development of affordable housing. So what was the impetus for creating Housing for Older Adults, Bayview Crossing in South Hero? We are an aging society. Vermont is the third oldest state in the nation. And our 64- to 74-year age demographic is the fastest growing throughout the state. The true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members. That's a quote that we think Gandhi said, but I think it was Ms. I think a lot of people upset it. So how are we addressing the housing and care needs of our older residents? How are we becoming a compassionate society? In Grand Isle County, there's a high predominance of vacation homes. And the effective vacancy rate is essentially 0%. Many older adults want to stay in the islands. They don't want to have to move off island, as they call it, as they age. So there's a real lack of appropriate affordable housing in the islands for older adults. The other impetus is that there was really strong allies in this community. The South Hero town leadership, super supportive in their town plan, is including support for affordable housing and services for older adults. And our community partner, CIDR, which stands for Champlain Islanders Developing Essential Resources, CIDR's acronym. They serve Grand Isle County with transportation, meals, accessibility services, and wellness programs. So the two organizations, Cathedral Square and CIDR, Natural Fit, dovetailed really well, where we're all concerned about what's happening to our older adults in this community. And then I'll just say community development is about knowing your community and understanding its needs and building relationships. And that's really how we approached this community development project. So we have the impetus, we have the why, we need housing badly, we need to serve our older adult population. So then what do we do? So we started feasibility work. The first steps are really in location, location, location, location. And really great zoning presentation this morning about how critical location is and how important access to transportation and services are. We don't want to build somewhere where the heck out, you know, where no one can connect to anything because with poverty and with aging can come isolation. So locating right in the village near transportation and services is super important. Walkability, will zoning support the concept? And do we have access to utilities, water sewer, and the site? So in the islands, water and sewer are a huge challenge as in many rural communities in the state. Water capacity and pressure was a big challenge to site a 30-unit building in the town center. The water came from the South Hero Fire District number four, which is a really committed group of citizens, but they're at debt capacity, they can't afford any more money. The line is too leaky and small to support this new building. So what do we do? We got funding from Northern Border Regional Commission and the Promote Community Development Program. And then the Regional Planning Commission helped administer those funds. So that was one roadblock, which we worked to navigate and were able to install 1,400 feet of new water line along Route 2 to serve our building in the wider area. Secondly, sewer, huge issue in the islands. The soils are very limiting. So we were able to do positive perk tests on a neighbor's land. We negotiated an easement with that neighbor. That was really a nine-month trust building exercise. So we really worked with community folks that knew him well to develop trust and knew that he was doing a good thing by working on this. So water sewer, check, long road to get those two. And then continuing with feasibility, one huge thing, which you might hear about again today, is the HUD Environmental Review Process, which is governed by the National Environmental Policy Act, or NEPA. And that requires an assessment of environmental effects of proposed actions prior to making decisions. So it's quite a hefty due diligence process. We'd really love to see it a little less stringent. So it required us to do, among many other things, an archaeological study, which was about $14,000 worth of studying, identifying wetlands. And because we had sort of three aspects of this project. There was a housing, a water line, and a sewer line. The HUD Environmental Review had to cover all of those activities. So it was pretty extensive. We had an excellent consultant on that work. And if I'm talking too fast or too low, somehow let me know. Then zoning, big subject from today, will the zoning support this community? And luckily we were in the Historic Village Center. We weren't originally, but the town amended their zoning regs to expand that district to support this housing. So that's why we all can make a difference. If we want to get this built, we can, you know, I easier said than done, but change the regs, you know. So the town desired growth in that area, consistent with the traditional character, and enhancing the pedestrian streetscape to be connected. Congregate housing, multifamily housing was a permitted use with site plan approval. And then we're always looking at what's the appropriate scale in terms of how many units. Both for operations, what's the right number of units you want to manage. And when I say units, I mean homes. What does the market area support that level? And can you get development funding for that level? Is it too many or too few? So 30 was a good number. So community development, I said a little bit about this, but really community development empowers community members and creates stronger and more connected communities. And that's really how Cathedral Square develops housing and how we, the lens we use to develop this property in a very caring, very involved community. So we did a lot of community building. We did an island wide survey. We had a raffle for, you know, the winning, you know, someone that we'd pull the survey out just to incent people participating in that survey. We did neighborhood meeting with all the adjacent neighbors, second homeowners, primary homeowners to get their feedback. We did several focus groups. This picture is one of them. And they were really, really fun and really engaging. And there was like 25, 28 people and super involved and like wanted to talk all about design. And some of those crazy ideas and some awesome ideas. And that was a really fun process. And then obviously meetings with the Select Board, the Development Review Board, tons of meetings. And then the CIDR Board. And then they had a core committee working on this project. And we met every other week for two years. So it's a very extensive, maybe more than we usually do for community building. Having a strong, competent design team, super important. So we requested proposals from architects, engineers, construction managers to put together a really good team. We informed them what our building program is because we're very active developers around what are requirements for accessibility, for durability, for common areas, what's our design, what are our design parameters. We're building permanently affordable housing, which is an important state goal. So we need to make sure we're building a quality building that's going to, because we're going to own it and manage it forever. So we want high quality, durable, and we want it to work really well for our residents. So then we get, so I'm really blasting through these major topics. Five left, 10 left. Perfect. So let's see, where am I? Okay, good, I'm halfway. So then funding, and you learned a lot about this in 101 earlier today. So funding priorities governed really largely by two state documents. The Qualified Allocation Plan through VHFA talks about the priorities for how tax credits are allocated, state and federal. And then the Consolidated Plan or CON Plan governs how HUD programs are allocated. And some of the funding priorities include Designated Village Center, that was applicable to Bayview, Access to Transportation Services, Mixed Income, Serving Extremely Low Income Households, Addressing Homelessness. And then our services program is called SASH, Support and Services at Home. But other organizations also have different services. But services are a really critical piece for supporting residents. So that's a little bit about the priorities. And then this project was a really permit-intensive process. It was long, arduous, expensive, state and local permits. But these are just a few of them. And then as you sort of learned this morning, the funding of affordable housing is very, it's competitive and it's very complex. And it's in scarce. I mean, the last few years have been unprecedented levels of funding. That's going to go down pretty soon. So a lot of housing developers are pretty nervous. Like, how are we going to continue to build in a high-cost environment with less funding, with this huge need we're facing? So we are in this together and we do have to figure it out. But Bayview Crossing, 30 apartments, $10.7 million, I collapsed some of the funding sources. It took about 11 funding sources. And this does not include the CIDR office that we built or the waterline. And each funding source has its own application and compliance. So the development process is very important, as is the management. Who's going to manage the building? Who's going to take excellent care of the building? You've got to build reserves to take care of long-term capital needs. And then services. Who's going to support the residents in place in housing retention when you're serving really vulnerable residents? We need to make sure that we have the supports there to help people be successful in their housing. As well as wellness services for older adults, we offer the SASH program. And then these are a few pictures. Is there like a red thing in here? One of those little, you know, things. I'll just show. So this is the building right here. This is the community health center. This is why we picked this location. This is the library. That's Fire and Rescue. That's a small office building. That's a restaurant, a brew pub, to be developed. This is a daycare preschool. And it's all connected by sidewalks. So it's a totally awesome location, a rural community. Kind of you have everything you need. And then CIDR provides transportation services so they can get people to grocery stores, pharmacies, healthcare appointments. So that just shows the setting when we mean location is really important connection to transportation and services. This is a closer up of the building. There's a little drop off there so people can wait for the transportation. There's a lot of garden planters outside. There's a gazebo amenities to help people get together and socialize and have wellness programs. This is the CIDR office. We actually created an office space for them in the building that they purchased debt free because they were able to do a capital campaign. So that secures their future. So they have their own entrance. They're independent. But we do share some of the community spaces like the community room and the restrooms and that kind of thing. They love their new space. These are some of the interiors, photo credit to Sally McKay. She took all these photos showing indoor air quality is really important. So we try to not have much carpet, highly accessible. We no longer install bathtubs. We do all step in or roll in showers, storage place in the bathroom, a lot of natural light and LED lighting to make good quality of lighting because a lot of people are, as they age, their eyesight can diminish. And then these are some of the community spaces because community is a vital part of what Cathedral Square is promoting in its housing communities, community room with a big kitchen for social gatherings. And also we can move the furniture out and have Tai Chi and chair yoga and exercise programs, a little gym with age appropriate fitness equipment. Some people might be in rehab and need to strength train or maybe they strength train because they want to reduce falls because with older adults, a broken hip can lead to much greater problems really quickly. So we do a lot of wellness programings, a nice little lounge for people to meet with an LED fireplace. This is the gazebo and this is a sample apartment entrance. We try to create homey feeling homes. So then really the point I was told of this case study was this is a successful model. You know, it took years to do, it took tons of community support. What can we do as people? So we can advocate, we can become yimbis, which is yes in my backyard. We can write letters to the editor, we can talk to legislators. There's a lot of legislators here. You can run for public office and kudos to people that are doing that. It's a big commitment. You can meet with select boards and city counselors. They're our elected officials. You can get involved in the permit process. You can go to permit meetings either as a citizen or try to become a planning commissioner or a development review board member if that interests you to shape the process. And then really importantly, housing committees, a growing number of communities have housing committees of just citizens that can shape policy, they can start housing trust funds, they can advocate for housing in their communities. It's the importance of it can't be overstated. And then maybe there's city town or state owned land that could, you know, something could happen with that. So those are just some ideas, but you all are going to have more ideas. We're going to now, you know, open this to Q&A and hear from others. So that's me if you want to contact me and thank you so much for and happy to also have have questions and comments. And I just want to point out 10, you said 10.5 million and 11 different levers and a different application for each one. Like think about, so there's a staff person that has to do all those and that staff person needs a supervisor. It's like I said this morning, we talk about solving. Well, why don't they just, why don't they just because look for one project that's remarkable really when you think about it, right? And we're going to hear now, right from Christie. And Christie, I'll let you give the, yeah, say what you want. Excuse me if I get nervous. My name is Christie Sansone and I am a survivor of domestic violence. I was put in a position that, you know, I did not know what to do and with no other alternative, I just put myself in my car with my dog and left. I found very quickly that housing was very short. The emergency housing in Burlington is very poor conditions. So I went through Clarina Howard Nichols in LaMoyle County and I was housed at Golden Eagle where I stayed for almost two years and I also worked for them. And then River Bend came. I was informed through Alliance, a lady that I worked with very closely. Katrina was a big help and I was offered a small efficiency that is absolutely beautiful, you know, much better than a dark hotel room. And, you know, when I was there, I was trying to overcome these traumas that had taken place. You know, I just assumed I would be able to get housing and then be able to, you know, overcome and work through the situation that I was, you know, in and that was not the case. So then on top of that, I had to be concerned daily about, am I going to be able to stay here tomorrow? Am I going to get approved for another month and go through all the paperwork and such? And now I'm forever grateful for, you know, what was done to get me a home. Thank you. We're going to hear from another person as well from their experience, but she is going to be joining us on video. So why don't you share your name? Sorry. That's me. Are you ready? I am ready. So as David was saying, Marie couldn't join us this morning, but this afternoon. So we wanted, we did a quick interview to have Marie share her story. So this is Marie Lennon, who we will be hearing from. My name is Marie Lennon. I grew up in New Jersey. I have two sisters and one lives in Illinois and the other is in Chicago. And I moved to Vermont in 2009. I worked in a health care field as a nurse for 22 years before I needed a trial for disability. The disability was for, I have PTSD, depression and anxiety. So, but it's much better, much better now. And so I moved to Vermont in 2009. And in 2014, I was taking care, helping to take care of my mom who had dementia and also helping to take care of my dad, who was sick with stage 4 esophageal cancer and was taking care of them. And then my significant other got sick with stage 4 cancer. So I was helping to take care of all three of them. And in December of that year, my mom passed. So on March of 2015, I will never forget that day with Tom Sunday. And I had gotten a call from my significant other. He was in the hospital in Boston. And my father was in a respite house in here in Vermont. And he was dying. And my significant other told me that he had a seizure and his heart went into a different church. He goes to the track at Cardio and he was in ICU. So I'm here in Vermont. He's in Boston. And I felt like I was torn between two. So anyway. Oh, that's really hard. Well, thank you for sharing that. And it sounds like there was a lot going on in a short time and a lot of health issues. So dad passed that day, March. And then my significant other passed in May. So within five and a half months, I lost the three most important people in my life. Wow. And after that, I was living in the house that my significant other had inherited partially when his mother passed. And they all started getting out of, out of too much for me to handle. So I needed to, I needed to move out. And I had nowhere to go, nowhere to go. So that's when I ended up with the charter house here in Middlebury. OK. Tell me a little bit about that experience. You know, what did you find supportive or helpful when that all happened? What were some of the things that were challenging? To be honest, the experience was absolutely terrifying for me. But the staff at the charter house was wonderful. They were very supportive. They were, they tried to help me by just talking to me and helping me with filling out applications because that was the lowest point in my life. And my brain was just like numb. Yeah. Yeah. You had just suffered so much and gone through so much. So, yeah. And like I said, it was terrifying for me because when I was young, my dad had a good job. I never had to worry about having a roof over my head. And here I am, homeless and knowing where I'm going to be the next day. Yeah. So I was at the charter house for two months. And then I went up to the John Graham shelter in Virginia. And the people at the John Graham shelter were wonderful too. What was, why did you need to move from one shelter to the other? Because at that point, the charter house was not open all year round. Okay. They closed on April 15th. Got it. So that's why I had to move to the up to Virginia. Trying to find an apartment was challenging. What was challenging about it? I felt about application after application after application. And most of the time, never heard of anything. Okay. Until October of that year, October of that year. So I was up in Virginia from April till October. In October, I finally heard from Redstone. And Redstone, at that point, owned Weyberg departments, which is where I am now in Middlebury. And I've been living here since 2016. Okay. And it is my apartment is subsidized through Vermont housing. Okay. And that is very helpful because the rents around here are so high. They just increased, they just increased my apartment. If I didn't have, if I didn't have the subsidy, I wouldn't be able to afford my apartment. My apartment would be over $1,000 a month. So it's that subsidy that you get through Vermont State Housing Authority that's... Yeah. I don't know if it's income. I get, I only get disability. Okay. So it's, I can't even imagine. This is back in 2016. The housing crisis now is so much worse than it was back then. I can't even imagine how these people are dealing with this. Yeah. Yeah, it's really overwhelming. So, well, thank you so much for sharing. And I think the last thing I had, and we talked about this the other day, is just kind of like, what do you see are things that could help? More people find the type of housing that you've been able to find and be able to afford it. What do you see through your experience? Could be things that might be helpful. Well, like I mentioned to you yesterday, there's a hotel up in, I think it's in Hinesburg. It used to be GMOs. And it's run down. But there's nobody's bought it. Why can't they fix that up? Why can't the state work on fixing that up? And that's a good size. They could make that into apartments. Or even, okay, you want to make it into another motel if that would give room for a few more. I know we can't do the motel situation. Keep doing it. But I think apartments would be wonderful. And then Middlebury College, they partnered with Summit Properties. And bought those 32 acres in Middlebury, which is fabulous. Yeah, so coming up. That's going to be a mixed income. There's going to be 20 units. And they're going to be mixed income. So some are going to be middle. And some are going to be low income, which is great. But the groundbreaking is not going to be till next year. And then it's going to take time for that to go up. And it's just we need more affordable housing. Well, thank you. Yeah, that's such a great way to sum it up. And thank you so much for your time. And we're really appreciating hearing your story. Well, thank you for having me. So we've kind of walked the road from some of all those nuts and bolts of 101 to hearing kind of a bit about how it plays out. And we wanted to utilize this time for question and answer. And this is for anybody up here. So the folks who presented this morning, if you have questions in your notebook from 101 or questions of whatever they are, this is kind of your time. But with the recording, it does have to all go through the microphone. So maybe if you just like stand up, I'll bring you the mic. And before you ask your question, maybe you just tell us your name and kind of who you are. Why if you work for a housing organization or just or an organization or if you're a policymaker or and then ask your question. So who's going to lead us off? Thank you, David. Hi, I'm Representative Frank Garafano, representing Essex. And it's more of a general question. I don't know if anybody in the room or on the panel can help answer the question. But I wonder if there's any efforts in helping people be able to purchase homes. There's so much talk about rental, affordable housing units being built for rent. And for me, it's an equity matter that being able to purchase a home and having equity the society we live in, that's how people build wealth. And how are we creating opportunities for that? And I know as a legislator, obviously, I have more power to do that. But I would love ideas on what is possible and any pathways towards that. Sure. Thank you, Representative. And thank you for the legislature for all their work over the years to encourage and support home ownership. There's many different ways in which the state, as well as federal programs. Polly had mentioned a couple in the morning through federal programs that allow and help home ownership development. VHFA runs a home ownership program to support the, to bring down the cost of, or to provide resources for the cost of down payment and closing costs. So we have the mortgage assistance programs and a variety of programs. Some of that is supported through the state housing tax credit. We also, the legislature, actually passed this last legislative session, the first generation home buyer program, which actually launched last week, I believe. And that is geared towards folks whose parents or legal guardians do not currently own a home and really some specific intention behind reaching marginalized communities who've historically been left out of home ownership. Champlain Housing Trust also launched a BIPOC home ownership program earlier this year. I think they're actually giving a presentation right now. So there are a number of ways in which we can lift up those programs that are currently in existence and then put more state resources and federal resources towards home ownership. And it's you were saying, Representative, that home ownership in this country, and we can have a conversation around that, that we place so much emphasis in owning a home in order to generate multigenerational wealth. And for better or for worse, that's kind of the system that we've chosen, as we talked about in 101, as a way to build wealth for our families in the future. So in order to do that, we need to be able to afford the housing that we have. So that's why some of these programs that provide resources for down payment and closing costs are so important, especially when the market does not work for most folks. Go ahead. Fine about this. But are there developments that are being built that are like cheaper houses to be purchased? Sure. Thank you for reminding me. There's another. You're going to nudge me on that one. So as part of, there was a lot done this last legislative session, and I think it's that kind of mentality that we need to think about what are some other tools that we could create or build upon, so the missing middle home ownership program. And that term missing middle is a technical term that's used oftentimes associated with the size of housing. So single-family housing, large multi-unit housing. So the size of kind of four duplexes, triplexes is often what we refer to in missing middle. This program, which we hope to launch very soon, it just got signed yesterday. All right. Sean can talk to some of the nitty gritty behind-the-scene details. But essentially, this is a home ownership program to build affordable housing for home ownership. And so this program is a $15 million program, which essentially does two things. It encourages a pipeline of homes to be built by signifying to developers. We will kind of guarantee that you'll be able to be paid for these middle income homes to be built. And so it provides a subsidy to the developers to build these homes. And then secondly, it provides essentially a grant to the home buyer who meets income eligibility to be able to afford to buy the home. And as we talked about before, one of the policy tools that we have in the state that's really important is that these homes be perpetually affordable. So as part of that work, there'd be a covenant around affordability for the homes that we would buy. So that's a $15 million program to build more homes, just to give a sense of where that hasn't even launched yet. It got signed, but it hasn't launched yet. And we have, at this point, over $10 million worth of committed homes that were being built. So that just indicates to you the need and the desire to build more affordable homes for folks. Good question. Thank you. Extra comment on that too, because one of the videos mentioned the property in Middlebury that Middlebury College owns and some of it is developing. Part of that is some of that missing middle, I believe. I can't remember exactly if it's that program, but they are trying to find some pathways for home ownership within that development, as well as 200 units, not 20, but tried. Hi, my name is Tom Proctor. I'm the Housing Justice Organizer for Rights and Democracy. I've actually got a two-pot question here. First of all, one in four houses in Vermont right now are unoccupied but unavailable. So we actually have plenty of housing. We just don't have access to it because they're second homes for Airbnbs. What do you suggest is a good policy to discourage second home ownership? So we get some of these houses back on the market. And the second question is, we're talking a lot about building, and I think that's really important. But in terms of a number of units online by 2025 or 2030, does anyone have kind of a ballpark figure of what that is and how many of those would actually be affordable? And what is affordability? Yeah, hello, this is gonna be fun. I think you can pull that out. Yeah, a little bit. So to answer the second one first, so I actually don't, off the top of my head, know the number of units that'll be coming online. It's definitely going to be, it'll show a blip, a bump for sure, in the development just because of all the ARPA-related funds. One thing that I didn't mention that's another plan that's probably worth looking at just to give some historical context of subsidized housing development is what's called the Housing Budget and Investment Plan, which we actually, my department, the Department Housing Community Development, tries to collect all of the information about housing investments to put it in one sort of place. It's admittedly a, it's not as straightforward a document as you think it would be, just because all these different, just like Cindy talking about 11 different federal sources going into one, how you manage to count the units that come from any particular investment. A lot of times, money is, especially for like CDBG, is forward-committed. So we're committing money in one year, but the units won't actually be online. And sometimes there's some uncertainty about exactly when, just because of the nature of construction. So it is always a perennial frustration of mine because we end up in the legislature every January talking about what we've done. And what seems like a very simple question, ends up with this five-minute long non-answer. But, yeah. As far as the second home ownership, I mean, that is definitely a tough nut. And I will, I'll admit that our, you know, my agency, so my department is part of the Agency of Commerce and Community Development, which includes the agency, or the Department of Tourism and Marketing. And so it can sometimes be a schizophrenic situation where on the one side of our office, there's a big push for underscoring the need for tourism dollars in order for Vermont to continue the way that it goes. And on the other side, exactly the point that you're making, how do we kind of maintain, you know, local ownership of the housing that we need. So I don't think we've even answered the question of should we make that, or sort of balance that one way or another before we've even gotten to policies to how. As for the short-term rentals, I think that I would love to see, and kudos to VHFA and some of the crew over there, I'd love to see a deeper dive into where those units actually are and whether they would be available for long-term, if not for the Airbnb, or if it's mostly, or partially the second homeowner that's renting it out for the weekend, that they're not gonna be up there, but wouldn't otherwise rent it anyway. I haven't seen any solid data that answers that question. So I think the short-term rentals is a huge problem in some places and less in others. And so I think there's been some apprehension about a statewide policy, just because there's so much difference in various communities. And frankly, you know, some folks, and I know that this is probably a small fraction of those units, but some use an Airbnb to increase their own affordability. They're gonna be traveling nurse out of town and has an opportunity to rent out a unit on one of those platforms or various things like that. So it's a nuanced situation, I think, that definitely deserves some more interrogation. Yes, I would. Hi, I'm Lucy Gluck, and I work for COTS here in Burlington working with single adults who are homeless. And I really appreciated the personal touch. Thank you so much, Christy, for your story and your courage of telling that. And the person, Chad, that you interviewed, being able to bring that to us. And Cindy, having a success story that with so much work and so many layers. And I just, what it's making me think about, because I've only been doing this work for just since the spring, so I'm really new at it. And what sort of hit me in the face every time I meet with one of our clients who are mostly either on the streets or in our shelter or transitioning between a motel and someplace else or trying to figure out is people are struggling, as we all know, with so many traumas and crises. And it's not just, hey, I need a place to live. It's, you know, I'm fleeing domestic violence or I have this horrible health condition and no health insurance or I really, really need mental health support and I can't find it. Like, you know, we call Howard Mental Health and they'll say, at the point that I called them a couple months ago, our waiting list is closed. We have too many people that need counseling right now. So when an agency in Burlington that's huge, that's supposed to provide mental health services doing all they can do and more, but it's really, really hard to find people what they need just to be able to make it through. But so we're sitting with folks and doing the applications and doing, you know, pulling whatever thread makes sense. First, is it why we really need to get you health insurance because otherwise you're not gonna be able to get this surgery that you really need or whatever. I know a lot of us are managing this but I didn't know if anyone, maybe Christy, you have some thoughts from your experience around, you know, where do we start as support people, workers with folks that are, you know, going through multi-layered, you know, trauma and crisis? I'll come down and help you. I will, I will, no, I have, I have, well, I've lived with many of these people, you know, and prior in Pennsylvania, I was in an abusive situation and I was basically, hold it closer, okay, okay. And I was basically told if I wanted to leave, I'd have to, you know, go down at four o'clock, wait in line and cross my fingers if I got a cot. Well, you know, I saw a lot of people, I mean, you know, do harm to each other, you know, while they're waiting and such like that and there was really not much community support there. Here, I'm a native Vermonner. We always, you know, when times get tough, we all bond together. So I know that the agency up in Lamoille County is not taking any more people either. Same with St. Albans. Boy, I know there's a lot of people out there with experience though, you know, experiences that could help. Like I said, I would, I mean, I think it would have to take a group effort to get the word out and I know people would come. Yeah, I hope that helps. I'd add just a thought to that too, actually, that, you know, we talk about housing first, the housing first model that, you know, in some housing systems in some places like, oh, well, you can't get this shelter unless you're sober. Well, how are you supposed to get and maintain recovery if you're living in a park, right? So like, come on, and for that matter, the person who needs surgery, where are they gonna go to recover after, right? So, but I also get what you're saying, like this is a multifaceted, and we're living in a, we're living in a, I mean, I'll just be blunt, I pay $1,600 a month for rent, and like, I have a good deal. Like, that's crazy that we live in a community where $1,600 a month in rent is a bargain. So like, this impacts all of us, right? And that, and if that's the kind of culture that we're living in, and then you wanna look at someone who you're working with in your roles who has this multifaceted, you know, you're like, oh my God, like, where do I even begin, right? But that, I think that kind of, I majored in philosophy in college, and sometimes I think I lean on the wisdom of Thomas Aquinas, who would have said that, it's not either or, it's both and, and that we, I think we have to have that housing first priority, but recognizing that that whole time that we have all these other pieces that we still have, that we have to work on kind of as well. Does that make sense? That's what I think. Here I am. Do you have one second? I'm sorry, later on. I just, I just wanted to add, I also had an alcohol problem to cope. And that is one thing that with housing, I think in addition, maybe look into housing for recovery because we lack that here in Vermont. And I've been helping like a girlfriend with her son and such, you know, we had, she was heartbroken. She had to send him, you know, to Maine. And they all have to be sent out of state to get help, as I did too. So that's, and that's a great point. We worked, VHC was involved, I was involved with a bill last year that didn't, it's, it's, they've tried a couple of times, I guess, and it didn't quite make it, but around recovery housing. And one of the big struggles with it was that when I lived in Rhode Island, I did a lot of work in recovery and in recovery housing and that there's, you know, if someone experiences a reoccurrence of their addiction and they're actively using in the recovery house, they would be, there's a system, right? So the person would be discharged from that house, but they would go, there's somewhere for them to go. So they would go to treatment or they would go to a, another step, another tiered recovery residence. Like there's this net, there's this system, but here we have this crisis and we have a kind of unique spread out geography. So if you're in a recovery residence and you have a relapse and like, if we ask you to leave, where are you gonna go? We don't have all these other resources that are in place. So the issue was kind of, well, how do we give recovery home operators the flexibility to do what they need to do to run the house, but at the same time, not be creating a bigger mess for the person who's going through this experience, right? So it's sort of back to that, like we were saying before, you know, someone might say, well, why don't they just? Well, cause it's all, it's all so complicated and you'll learn, especially those of you who are new to working in the field, that the more the layers of the onion get peeled back, the more complicated it gets sometimes. So I work for a Burlington Housing Authority. I'm with the retention program, which is essentially a group of 10 or 11 social workers all working to help people in low income stay housed. And we shameless plug, reach out to me afterward because we have an entry, coordinated entry program where if people are homeless, we have specific people working with them to connect with those resources. And Brianna here next to me is also doing, oh, I'm sorry, I never mentioned my name. My name's Marissa. Brianna's doing the same good work of connecting the people. That's often the housing risk, right? That people have mental health or addiction issues that they aren't getting the help they need from like one PCP visit every year. So definitely I can help connect you with other resources if you're new to the field and the area. And then my question for you guys is, and this might not be the right place to ask, but I was just curious. And you mentioned the traveling nurses, but this is a really big issue with UVM that they're allotting, last time I heard was 60 million for nurses and about three million I believe for local nurses. And part of the traveling nurses budget is $800 a week for housing stipend on top of the 4,000 they're making a week in bank. So is there any pushback that you guys are providing with UVM and kind of advocating for like this is not sustainable for our community? A, because you're increasing the short-term rental market? And B, because you're not investing in our community and our nurses and our social workers, et cetera, et cetera. They're outsourcing the jobs that we need here and also taking up very valuable resources, AKA housing units, you know? Thanks. So the thanks for the question and just to reiterate one of the things, one of the complicated, Burlington's a special, its own special little place. And I say that, you know, slightly tongue in cheek, but also actually because, you know, as Polly mentioned a lot of the federal programs that come through state government, Burlington is considered an entitlement community. So they get to make their own decisions about that funding. You know, they get their own home, their own community development block grants and ESG as well. So unfortunately I'd say that from a state perspective, there's very little, there's relatively little intervention in Burlington's policy priorities and especially on such a granular level as dealing with one particular employer. So unfortunately there's not a whole lot of levers that the state pulls when it comes to Burlington's housing policies themselves that rests more at the governor's office and CEDO. I guess more I meant, well, yes, that too, but pressure that we can put as nonprofits or other larger agencies of saying, you know, we don't really agree with the way that UVM is, I know we can't police other agencies, right? But like UVM is essentially in a monopoly now in Vermont and they're A, not meeting our needs and they're B, causing harm to the community that we are so hard working. Like there's 400 people here today. We clearly care about the communities that we live in and it's not just Burlington that UVM is impacting, it's a large scope around Chinon County but also all throughout Vermont, they have now eaten up all these smaller medical agencies and I know we can't tell them we hate this but like maybe not, you know, sponsoring them or encouraging them or actively saying we don't agree with this. Thank you for providing medical care but you're also not going about it the right way. There needs to be more pushback as a larger community and not just watching our nurses strike every other year because they're not being paid affordable wages. We're the second lowest in the state, sorry. Okay, that's all, thanks. Sure, and I can kind of go at that maybe more from a federal level. I covered healthcare as well for Senator Leahy and in speaking with nurses and speaking to healthcare institutions, a lot of what we would hear is that we wanna hire local when we try to hire people to come in and stay for jobs that are permanent and not traveling nurses. Often what we hear is that they can't find a place to live and it all comes back to housing and one of the debates we have in the housing community is what do we mean when we talk about workforce housing? Is that something, is that a sector of housing that's different from the subsidized affordable housing that we work to build or is it one and the same and I think one of the messages that we try to get out there is that it's one and the same. The people who need subsidized affordable housing are working, are contributing with essential jobs like in healthcare, like our nurses who are here and working now and we heard that from the interviewee that Chad interviewed. So that's not an answer about how to push back on UVM because I think that's a little bit outside of our work as housing advocates but certainly to take it one step forward and saying we need to talk about how promoting more affordable housing is going to help address some of these more macro issues around healthcare around the workforce and that's a message that each of you in your communities can help with. Can I have a really quick thing? Because I want you to be next. Two things, one is I know that UVM is building in partners, they're investing in some apartments on Market Street in South Burlington, I think 60 or 61 units, which should be coming online in early 2023, which is a piece. So it is something that we can encourage and say yes, this is a good idea. So they're investing in a private developer's building it. So that's one good thing. It's like, yay, let's do more. And then secondly, I just wanted to say per the mental health discussion earlier, once people do have housing, Cathedral Square has embedded in housing in two of our Burlington community's mental health clinician and we've done like a three year pilot and it's been super successful because the mental health care is right there on site and we've seen two things. One is people are less afraid to go because it's right there. And then secondly, more men have been going and it tends to be harder for men to do that. So for various reasons. So anyway, we wanna expand that mental health pilot and we wanna run it so that we don't have to beg and steal for funding on an annual basis. And we're also trying to replicate the SASH program in general occupancy or family housing in the Brattleboro area, SASH for all. And SASH is embedded, it's a service program embedded in housing communities and you can build on it, like suicide prevention, mental health counseling, so things like that. So that's also an interesting model for once people do have housing and I realize that's not for when you're homeless, but just those, now it's your turn. Hi, my name is Sandra Silla, I'm a project manager for Ever North and I have a question for Cindy. Thank you for sharing your hugely inspirational case study. Loved it, loved your story. And I have a two fold question. So I'm relatively new to the field of affordable housing and the funding stacks that Polly talked about in 101. My question is, is there anything different about the way that funding stacks are put together for senior projects versus like, for age restricted projects versus others? No, I think it's the same old, same old, federal state that we're all competing for and supporting each other to apply for. There's a lot of collegiality within the non-profit development sector, but I don't think there's anything particularly unique to it. We do have a lot of common spaces in our housing and that does come at a cost, but our housing development costs higher than others, I'm not sure. I think our operating costs are higher than others because we do include some services in them and then we also have Medicare coming in on the side and I tell you, we're often looked askew by funders. You guys have too high of operating costs and we're like, hey, really? Well, we gotta, I mean, we have to be competitive and we have to create more units, but we also need to provide services. So we have to all figure out how to do it and how to underwrite it. So, but I don't think anything really different in the capital. Okay, and part two is more of a process and design related question. You talked a little bit about focus groups that you held in the community and I'd be really interested in just hearing a little bit about how you put those together. How did you decide on, did you invite participants? Was it generally open to the general public and really I think it's incredible that you involve the community in the design process and I would just like to hear more, a little bit more of the detail of how you actually put that together. Sure and I'd be happy to send anyone a copy of that survey that went out island wide. We made it really easy to fill out and get in and like CIDR transportation, they had the surveys in there, they were collecting them. So we tried to make it super easy to fill out and then if we drew one of them you got like a gift card at the bagel shop. So that was another like Benny to fill it out. And then I'm trying to remember it so many years ago, did we check on that thing? Check if you're interested in a focus group. I think that's how we identified through the survey and because the islands is such a big area, we did a focus group in the southern part of the islands, which was like 28 people and the northern part of the islands, which was like eight. And we had refreshments because people love refreshments and this was pre COVID. And really the brainstorming is super cool. Like let's have a mini farmers market, let's have everyone have their own entrance to their apartment to the outside, which you can't do for energy reasons. But the feedback was so great and it was very moving to me. So I'd be happy to share the survey and anything else. Contact me and I'd love to talk with you. Hi, my name is Adam Wexler. I am the chair of the housing committee for Vermont Statewide Independent Living Council. So we represent the needs of people with disabilities in Vermont. So my question has to do with housing development for people with disabilities. There's a lot of discussion and development going on for around seniors, but I'm also curious about how, I guess how we're developing housing for people with disabilities who are younger than seniors, so adults. And I know there is consideration paid to developing accessible housing, but I think there's still, like we're not meeting the demand, if that makes sense. Thanks. So really important point, and I know there's a really active group of parents of adult children, for lack of a better word, with disabilities and trying to figure out how we can meet this demand and have options other than adult foster care or other things that do not lead to thriving. And Cathedral Square really wants to be part of the solution. The challenge has been a service provider that can provide potentially 24-7 or on-site direct service care for young folks with disabilities that need supports to live independently. We just had a pretty horrible, challenging situation happen where we have a community called South Burlington Community Housing that was built with the HUD-811 program years ago and serves disabled adults under the age of 62 who needed four hours of personal care a day to live there and otherwise could live independently. And UVM Home Health and Hospice was the service partner post-BNA and they actually gave 100-day notice and left. And we tried really hard to find an alternative service provider and are not able to. So that's a community being disrupted right now which is horrible to even talk about, but that's the reality. Like we could not find another service partner to support that community. And so now we're looking at, okay, what's the future of that building? And that's only 10 apartments. So we know, and this isn't a really helpful response to your question about what are we gonna do? We know there's a huge need. And I know there's a growing community that knows it's a huge need because there's been really effective advocacy. In fact, that the legislature set aside some funds to look at feasibility work on how to create some communities that would serve young disabled population. So a lot more needs to be done. We welcome the advocacy. We wanna be part of the solution or conversation, but we don't yet have any specific. This is what we gotta do. And so we wanna work on it. Just really quickly gonna ask or add that. One, thank you for asking the question. I think this is really important that it's continued to be lifted up. Second, as funders, we have universal design standards built into our development processes, both VHFA and the Vermont Housing Conservation Board have those built in. But I would just be frank and say they're not enough that there needs to be additional resources allocated. And as we talked about earlier, the increased housing cost, I think that number of $370,000 per unit scares folks. And so we constantly, we kind of shy away from having that number inch up even though it's not meeting all of our needs. So I think there's more that we can be doing to make sure that the housing that we do develop is more accessible for all. And we're actually, I hate to be the skunk of the lawn party, but we're actually at the end of our allotted time. So I would just sort of wrap us up with a first of all gratitude to everyone who participated today up here, especially the VHFA for putting the whole thing together in the first place. This really just been a fantastic day. And most of all to all of you for coming and for the work that you do every day, I would leave you with sort of a thought. There's these bulletin boards where you write that we've been invited to write on and think about, how can I be a part of this work more? How can I be re-engaged? How can I be sort of re-energized? At VAHC, our mission is to build a movement, a movement rooted in education, advocacy and outreach about affordable housing. And movements are not an organization with one leader. Movements are a living reality, right? That has multiple leaders across the state and we need more. We need more leaders. We need more voices. We need more participants in this movement. And so whether that's getting involved and follow your city council on social media and see when they're having meetings and when someone needs to show up and be a voice for housing, maybe that can be you. Maybe it's connecting with one of the formal state coalitions. Maybe if you're doing this work and that's why you're here was to learn more about housing, then I would encourage you to go home and really think about, well, how am I gonna, how might I be interested in expanding myself in this field? Because not only do we need more leaders in a movement, we're gonna need more staff to do the work. We hear about places that, well, okay, well, we get a building, but we don't have the people. We don't have the people to make this project happen. We don't have the labor problem impacts our work too. So I really just encourage you to ask yourself kind of, how can I be more engaged with this idea of a movement? Because that's really how, as Polly said, that's part of how we get to answers about these specific things, is when we're able to have kind of all of our neighbors recognizing the importance of this issue and work together as a community towards its resolution. So thank you again for joining us. Thank you to all of you and enjoy the rest of the conference.