 EFCC ready to address corruption at all levels amid battle to sustain anti-corruption war. And governors have been asked to loosen their groups on local government. This is Plus Politics and I am Mary Anacorn. The President Bola Med Tinnibu's government has promised to renew hope of many Nigerians saying that he would fight corruption. But since the arrest of the embattled Chairman of the Economic Crime, Financial Crimes Commission EFCC Abdul Rashid Bauer, there seems to be an unusual quiet in the anti-graft agency, especially with the unactualised threats to arrest some of the immediate past governors and prevent the corrupts among them from travelling. The initial zeal shown by the federal government to stamp out corruption appears to be losing steam which makes us question the battle to sustain the anti-corruption war. Joining us to discuss this is Mr. Daya Khayadeh, he's a social political technocrat. Mr Khayadeh, thank you so much for joining us. Good evening. Good evening. Good evening. Great. Let's start by looking at the fact that it's been a hundred plus days for Mr. President in office and many would say a hundred days is not enough to assess a government. Some others would say, well, with the putting together Mr. President's cabinet and the steps and the strides so far, it would show whether the President is really serious about fighting corruption and bringing that renewed hope. But let me start from the issue of renewed hope. One of the things that the President had said he was going to do was to continue from where his predecessor stopped. In the fight against corruption under the Bahá'í administration, many would not score the former President even up to 50%. And here we are. Mr. President has inherited that same anti-corruption war. Do you see a body language of Mr. President in that direction of wanting to seriously fight corruption? Yes. Mary Anne, let me quickly say this because in assessing anybody whether one day or two days or three days or hundred days, even eight years, you got to look at two things. Number one, why do you campaign? What are your promises to the people? Number two, you are there based on constitutionality, you are there based on the constitutionality of the federal republic of Nigeria, 1999 as a mandate. What does that constitutional stipulate as regards your relationship with the people? And all has to bow down to two things again. One, ensuring good livelihood of the people. And then two, ensuring safety and security of lives and properties of the people. Now, if we prepare a checklist, these are these stipulations. I want viewers to judge themselves what percentage are they going to give to Mr. President. Now, coming to issues of corruption, I've always been saying it, and I continue to say it. Can corruption ever fight corruption? Where you have ten lions and then you have ten goods. Which one do you think the lion will fight to eat? There is no way corruption can ever fight corruption. Let me give you an example of what is on ground now. Look at the issue of meteorology. The S.Y. chairman of E.F.C.C. had promised him that immediately that slogan of what do I call it now? You cannot investigate a chief executive of a state or the president immunity. That immunity clause has been provided by the Constitution. He said immediately he dropped that. He was going to prosecute him on the issue of the 17 billionaire of which he allocated or he gave out contracts to some proxies and he paid them without even executing anything. And here we are, Metawali, being a minister. Not just a junior minister, but a hierarchy minister. So what do you expect? There are a whole load of them too. Who were governors before that Bauer had promised that, listen, I am not going to allow any of you to travel out of this country without you dropping all the money that you have stolen. Where are these governors now? They are now in the Senate. Let me give you another example of the current Senate president. He was supposed to go to jail when he deflected to E.F.C. at that time. And you remember what Osho Moles said while he was the chairman of E.F.C. then. That any sinner who can drop his or her party and come to E.F.C. will definitely become an angel. Where is that governor? He's now the Senate president. So tell me, how do you expect the E.F.C.C. as is to perform? Because they're now more powerful than E.F.C. We are not building institutions, but we are building personalities. When you say the E.F.C.C. is no longer powerful, what exactly do you mean? We've seen them arrested. Right now in their custody, there is the former CBN governor. In their custody is also their former boss. So again, when you say they're not powerful, how exactly do you mean? The issue is, when you are talking about those two people, you have to also look deeply that they stepped on some powerful tools. That is why they are there. Why is former CBN deputy governor, that lady, not an E.F.C.C. next? Why is some of these governors not an E.F.C. next? Well, I then let off the hook. Just the way, I mean, unlike the way the former governor of CBN and the former chairman of E.F.C.C. are to be in custody for how many months now? Do you have the constitutional right to detain, to detain, not a criminal now, but a suspect, be shown as a particular hours? So why are we doing this on the two of them? Remember, even autumn, autumn that was asked to come to a place of peace was not released. So what has happened to these two people? Are you not saying because they have stepped on some tools, you now want to deal with them? The problem in this nation is rather than us building strong institutions, we have been building strong individuals. And that is an old display now. Alright, I'll come back to you because I want to paint another scenario for you. Joining us again is the chief political advisor to the governor of E.M.O. State, Aina O'Negbu. Mr. O'Negbu, thank you so much for joining us. Good evening. I think that you need to unmute yourself. But let me come back to you, Mr. Coyote. I want to paint a scenario. When you say that detention, and I'm not in any way holding brief for the federal government or the EFCC, nor the DSS, we've seen these kinds of scenarios play out. Let's take for example, the leader of the Shiite group, they're still in custody, do you know that? Yeah. Elzazaki. We still have Namdi Kanu, even after a court order, has been, has asked for him to be released. So what is new about this? Again, I remind you, Mr. President had said that he would continue from where his predecessors stopped. So maybe this is what he meant in part. Hasn't been on corruption, rather, but tagged, and I'm saying tagged as public disturbances from the two of them. So their scenario, their scenario cannot be a consulance with that of Ida Bawa, or that of city media. There is no correlation between those two scenarios because Elzazaki is talking about freedom and Namdi Kanu is also talking about freedom unlike that of Sibyan Goblu and Bawa that are both talking about corruption. And the issue is this, I'm just saying it, and I will just say it, I was affected. I was affected, really, by activities of the SYCN government and I will never be in support of what he did while he was the Sibyan governor. However, however, here is a country that has rules, regulations, and guidelines guiding interrogation of anybody that had gone ultra-virus with the rules of the land. So why are we not following the rules? Just hold that thought. Let me just quickly bring back Mr. Nekbu in. Mr. Nekbu, can you hear me now? Yes, I'm here with you. Perfect. Thank you for joining us. We just needed to be sure that your audio is working. Let me bring you in now. Looking at the anti-corruption fight by President Nekbu, of course, many would say he just got into office, but there seemed to have been that very energetic drive for Mr. President when he just got into office with the arrest of the Sibyan governor and several other issues. We do know that he had a private investigator looking into the books in the CBN, et cetera, et cetera. But then it looks like that track is gradually, you know, going cold, and many people are saying it's too early in the day for the track to go cold. But share your thoughts with me on what you think about Mr. President's fight against corruption. Do you see the body language of a man who would be able to do more, much more than his predecessor? But I would want to encourage the usual cliche in Nigeria of sounding to sanctimonials. The important thing is somebody talked about having strong institutions rather than having strong men in power or positions. How do you have strong institutions if we cannot sanitize these institutions at the court, no matter how high the place? When we are talking about corruption, let us use the well-known most important agency in the fight against corruption, that is the EFCC. Nuhu Ribadu, who headed EFCC, had ended up being a case of the hunter becoming the hunted. And when you're investigating people who have occupied such positions, you will require, I hope you're hearing me. I can hear you, go ahead please. Yes, when you're investigating such positions or such persons, you will, an easy job, to do forensic investigation. For example, let us use the subsidy matter. When we are investigating the matter connected with this subsidy regime that operated and puts Nigeria back, it involves some institutional breaches. And such investigation will not last in a day or a week. And I know that every person who has had to be detained for such matters, there is usual additional pending investigation. But then there are laws that need to be followed. Yes, the EFCC also does not operate in isolation. There are laws that the EFCC needs to follow. And all of us, including the courts, if the court or the law says you can't detain or hold a person beyond 48 hours. Why does the EFCC and other security agencies continue to hold people for longer? Especially if you're saying you're fighting corruption and you want to do it by the books. This is what people are querying. I'm just trying to let you in into the situation where I seen a bank fraud, for example. It is a different kind of fish from investigating a case of housebreaking. It will involve some forensics. You will have to study some books. You will have to study... But people... You should have shown that allowed by warrant by a court of computer injuries. As it does go by, review that detention order to see if they are being complied with or breached. And that is why when eventually such a person is charged to court, the courts would also consider whether to grant bail on... Mr. Necbo, we're going to have to fix your connection. They may get the... Mr. Necbo, we'll probably have to get you out and bring you back in to be able to sort out your connection where you're breaking and not able to make out what you're saying. Let me come back to you, Mr. Kaede. He's making a case that... He's trying to say that we cannot build strong institutions without sanitizing the system. And I'm trying to quote him almost directly when he was talking about making a remark as to what you have said about building strong institutions as opposed to strongmen. This is something that we hear all the time. I see that's on the ground. How do we even go about building these strong institutions if we have more strongmen than the institutions? And is there a willingness? Let's look at the legislature, which is a group of people who are supposed to legislate on issues such as this. Many would say that our legislators also benefit from some of these loop holes in our fight against corruption and legal system and the rule of law. Former President Mahmoud Buhari at a legal conference here in Lagos, if I'm not mistaken or in Abuja, had said at some points that national security trumps the rule of law and we're seeing it play out every single day. Many people also tie what's been happening across the African continent to this, the fact that the rule of law is never followed. How can we deal with issues such as corruption or trying to make sure that people do the right thing if the people who are trying to make these people do the right thing and not doing the right thing? Am I making sense? You have made a lot of sense. You see, building a strong institution cannot be switched away from fighting corruption. And I'll give you an example. Look at our NNPC today. Our NNPC today vis-à-vis our refineries that are now working. I bet you are 80% of people in NNPC and that of refineries are being flushed out today and then made to pay for what they have made us to go through unnecessarily in this country. And then bring in fresh blood that are very, very passionate about our nation. You will see that all those refineries will work. Where are we getting these passionate people from? Permit me to ask. Are we getting them from the moon? Are we getting them from Mars? Because the truth is we also have a system. No, no, I'm sorry. Please hold on. Where are we getting them from? Are they from the moon? Because we also, let's not forget, there is a system that is already on the ground. Whether we bring these people from the United States, from the moon, from Mars, there's still a systemic problem in our country. So how do we fix that? And I was coming to where you just touched now. You see, in this country today we have a lot of passionate people there. I wouldn't want to use myself as an example so that I won't be a slave. I am marketing myself. All right? But I have seen passionate Nigerians that have the opportunity to live this country and Japan. But because they strongly believe in our nation, they strongly believe that Washington, Charles de Gaulle, and others, Mandela, were in their country to contribute to the development of those nations. And they are here in this country. They are here in this country. All right? We can figure them out. We can fix them out and then bring them up. All right? Two, when you now bring such people to there, you give them a level playing ground to exhibit their potentialities. Because again, when you put people there, there are some strong people that are telling them, for instance, look at the case of Metawali. Let me come back to Metawali. Whereby he allocated, it was her right to have allocated contracts. Giving those people money. And he didn't do the work. And they were telling the SEC that he asked them to go and change those monies to dollars. And then give some monies to the local government executive and the particular commission. I like the deal. I'm sure you're talking about Governor Ghanduji. It could be that Ghanduji. See, that's what Ghanduji was saying face to face when I was collecting those dollars. I'm talking about this, the issue of this same Metawali that has not been made Minister of Defense or something like that. State for Defense, yes. Do you understand? I'm talking of that Metawali. That's what Ghanduji is still there. What has happened? So what I'm saying is there are credible people in this nation that are still ready to ensure that Nigeria gets to its elders, that Nigeria gets to its zeniths, that Nigeria reach its acme. But unfortunately, they are not having one Godfather or the other that will push them. When you push those people there and then you cannot use them to build strong institutions. And I go back to my question. There are very many people who can single-handedly be called or rather you can single out of the crowd and say this is a man of honour, this is a woman of honour. But then I'm saying we have a systemic problem and when I talk about the system I'm talking about the whole makeup. So if you bring one person that is good and you put in a mix of people that are all bad who are used to a systemic rot, what good have you done, really? And we are saying the same thing but in different ways. When you're talking of the system, the system is made up of one at the top, the institution. And below it, the people. Are you with me? We are saying the same thing but we are just using is a matter of semantics now. We have a system that is rotting and there is need for us to overhaul. I will give you an instance. I will give you another instance. When Badabia Mila was trying to become the speaker of the house. This case came from America now. The case between him and his client. I will privy to all this. I was among those that orchestrated that gave me the volume that I spoke of. Such a person. What do you expect? The issue still came up on the social media today. And what do you expect? When you have as the head of a society let me give you this analogy again. I'm sure you know the fish and as a grown up lady you must have been going to fight the fish. How do you know the kind of fish you're supposed to buy? That the head is already smelling. Will you buy such a fish? Will you buy such a fish for goodness sake? Because when the head is rotting definitely the house system will be rotting. And that's how we are talking here now. Alright Mr Khayyadi because of time I'm going to bring you to my last question so we can wrap up. Because I've been trying to get you to tell us how we can change the system but you keep saying one person. I don't know how one person I mean I'm sure we can point to so many good one persons that have been sucked in by the system. Again we as Nigerians have continued to complain about the fact that the fight against corruption has been lopsided it's much more of a witch hunt as opposed to fighting corruption and there are others who would also say that when you fight corruption, corruption fights back. Will Nigerians in their lifetime anytime soon under this democratic dispensation be able to see a true fight against corruption and how soon will that be? Again we're still talking about Mr President Mr President is just at the beginning of his tenor and he still has some more years to go and there's a lot like I said at the beginning his plate is very full, too many things it's dragged on the one side to insecurity especially in the southeast the uprisings he has to deal with an economy that's already facing a downturn he also has to deal with the issue of fuel subsidy removal the trust deficit that Nigerians have when it comes to this issue of fuel subsidy the fact that there's been oil theft and nobody has been able to account for it shall we be able to see or boast of a true fight against corruption under this administration or in the next decade? Democracy democracy is based on the sanctity of the constitution and when you are talking about sanctity of the constitution that's what we call the rule of law and when you are talking about the rule of law it also has to do with justice dispensation the moment our democracy is allowed to throw up the kind of leadership that we require definitely it will lead to the sanctity of our constitution okay and when we have the sanctity of our constitution definitely the rule of law we play out and when we allow the rule of law to play out strong institutions will emerge we have to go we have to go we don't have time we have to go I have to ask Mr. Negbu one quick question so that we can wrap up here unfortunately his connection has been bad Mr. Negbu will we be able to see a fight a holistic fight against corruption under the Chinubu administration or any time soon is when you are fighting corruption corruption fights back cherries of the post subsidy or trouble to keep quiet they will try to influence the civil society try to influence the masses what is important is that those places have so much in their hands that they can fight the system what we must agree is that the manner of aggregations mentors that the process of investigation would take some time requires that there be a detention order allowed or granted by a court of court talking about fundamental rights there are exceptions to that rule or that cases that involve Chinubu felony or cases that threaten the territorial integrity of the nation your fundamental right is put in the to jeopardize the security of our nation for your fundamental right limitations to that right of personal liberty now in this case investigation and charging a person to court and when they are charged to court it not it also to educate the society that there is the rule of certain that there is a day for reckoning and the law of the requirement for would be practitioners of such I'm so sorry I'm so sorry Mr. Nick unfortunately your connection is really bad and we are losing half of what you are saying but I want to thank you Mr. Inaya he is a chief political advisor to the governor of emo state also I want to say thank you to Daya Kayade who is a political technocrat thank you so much gentlemen for being here in the studio and having this conversation with us Mr. Nick hopefully next time you join us we will be able to have a clear audio from you but I look forward to this outing alright thank you very much we will take a break when we come back we want to talk about local governments and the grasp of governors on their monies especially their duties stay with us