 I appreciate everybody being here. So let's get underway. Good evening. My name is Kate McCarthy. This is, I'd like to call this, I'm the chair of the Montpelier development review board. And I'd like to call this meeting to order. The date is October 19th, 2020. And to get us oriented, I'm going to introduce the other members of the DRB. Please just either wave or for the benefit of the folks who are not maybe viewing this on mute and say hello. Hi, everyone. So DRB members serving tonight are Roger Kranz. Hello. Roger. Rob Goodwin. Joe Kiernan. Hello. Kevin O'Connell, our vice chair. Hi, Kevin. Abby white. Hi, everyone. Yeah. And Jean Leon. We are supported by Meredith Crandall, our zoning administrator. Good evening. And as, as well as by Tammy Furrier, recording secretary who's joining us by phone. So, so thank you very much. Next, we're going to turn to the staff review of some of the key information about procedures to join this evening's meeting. Okay. So a few people. There we go. So I'm going to be sharing this screen so that people who are watching via orca can log in if they suddenly have an interest. And so for those of you viewing the meeting via orca, you can participate in this board meeting via the zoom platform for either video or telephone access, access options by using this link. Or you can call into the meeting on your telephone. Or you can call into the meeting via the zoom platform for either option. The meeting ID is this number here. And here is the password or pass code. If you haven't done so already, you can download the complete meeting packet, including the agenda, all applications and all staff reports. Following this link. And if you have problems accessing the meeting, please feel free to email me. My email address is right here. You can call into the meeting. Also, if you're actually logged in the zoom and you're having problems with any of the zoom features, you can use the chat function to talk to me. So this zoom meeting is being recorded as well as streamed live via the orca media. Turning on your video is optional. Public testimony will be taken verbally. And the chat function should only be used for troubleshooting or logistics questions. As I mentioned previously, I'm not going to go into the public record. If that feature is used, please keep your microphone on mute. When you're not speaking to reduce background noise. And for those participating by phone, if you don't have a mute button, star six will allow you to mute or unmute. As the host, I can also sometimes manually mute other people or unmute them, but sometimes the preferences just won't let me. If you're interested in speaking on a particular matter. And you didn't say that you'd like to speak previously or you're not speaking to somebody who is an applicant. So we know what application you want to talk on. You can raise your hand if you're on the zoom video, or you can use the raise hand button on your toolbar. For those on the phone, you can press star nine to do this. And it'll show up for everybody else who's on zoom. You can also, if you need to, if nothing else is working, unmute yourself and state your name. Once the chair has recognized you to participate, please unmute your microphone, confirm that you can be heard and provide your full name and address for the record. This applies mostly of people commenting, not so much on the applicants because we have all your information in the application. So the public is then free to provide comments or questions on an application. We ask that you keep those to two minutes, at least initially, unless there's some further follow up questions from the board. When you're done talking, we'd ask that you please mute your microphone. The chair will then move on and call the next person to speak. You do have the option to provide additional input, but we ask that you wait until the chair recognizes you again. In the event the public is unable to access this meeting, it will need to be continued to a time and place certain. If you're having connectivity issues, try turning off your video or closing other applications on your phone or computer. And if you're having trouble seeing the document screen share, all the application files are uploaded to the agendas and minutes page for this meeting on the city website. Please note that all votes taken during this meeting will be done by roll call vote. I'll now hand the meeting back over to the chair. Thank you, Meredith. All right. So the next item on our agenda is approval of the agenda, which we'll do by roll call. Are there any modifications to the agenda? All right. Is there a motion to approve the agenda? So moved. Is there a second? Second. Second by Kevin. I'll take the roll. Please say yes or no. Joe. Yes. Kevin. Yes. Roger. Yes. Rob. Yes. Abby. Yes. Jean. Yes. And I'm Kate. I vote yes as well. We have approved our agenda. Good start. The next item is comments from the chair. There are no comments from the chair this evening. So we'll move on to the next item. The next item is comments from the chair. There are no comments from the chair this evening. So we'll move on to meeting minutes. These are the minutes of our last meeting, which was on October 5th. And in attendance at the October 5th meeting, the people who are here today and we're there. So eligible to vote are myself, Rob, Abby and Roger. So are there any modifications to the minutes? All right. If not. Thank you. I have a motion to approve the minutes as printed. Motion to approve the minutes. Thank you. Motion by Abby. Is there a second? Second. Second from Roger. Thank you. We'll call the roll. Joe. I don't think I can vote on the. Oh, of course. That's what I just said. Isn't it? Thanks for remembering. Rob. Yes. Abby. Yes. Roger. Yes. And I vote yes. That was close. We've approved the minutes. Thank you. And thanks, Joe, for keeping up and keeping me up as well. It's a team effort here at the DRB. Appreciate it. All right. So we'll move on to our first application of the evening, which is for 10 Liberty street. This is a request for conditional use approval for conversion of a building from being a four unit building to a five unit building. So the first thing I'm going to do is swear in any witnesses. And then we'll hear a little about the project before we review the criteria in the zoning. So I believe that let's see. Camilla is here to be heard on it. If I don't think there's anyone else to be heard. So Camilla, if you would be so kind as to raise your right hand. Thank you. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, but the truth under the pains and penalties of perjury? Thank you. Thank you. Great. So Meredith, would you please provide us with a brief overview of the project? Yeah, I mean, you pretty much summarized it. So as you said, it's a request for conditional use review for a change from a four unit to a five unit dwelling, five dwelling units. So it became conditional use when it triggered over to that. This property has been a four unit for a very, very long time. And you know, that's, that's the biggest thing for the DRB to consider is to go through those conditional use criteria. There are a couple of other smaller issues about one, whether or not there needs to be a landscaping plan for this. And then just the question of whether or not the board really wants to talk about. Is there a way to talk about bicycle storage on this application? But those are, those are too much smaller issues. Okay. Thanks Meredith. So Camilla, we always give the applicant a chance to, to speak. In the overview section of this project. So you can also speak throughout our, our conversation as we review the project. Is there anything that you would like to add beyond what Meredith has or I have said? I'm, I've been away kind of surprised. I was surprised at this, um, that, um, this ended with, um, actually increasing the building from a four unit to a five unit, because that's not how I went into it. I'm thinking that I was going to be doing this. But, um, um, once I got a kitchen sink put in and, um, a bathroom, I was going to, it was first of all, just going to be a guest bedroom. Um, because I have a three to four unit apartment and I thought, oh, I'll just fix up the guest room and then have Airbnb from time to time and then COVID hit and things kept on morphing. Um, and then it was like, well, if you have a bathroom and a kitchen sink, it's, it's another apartment. And so I guess that that's just a long explanation is. I didn't know that I really had to get it zoned because, but so, but here I am. Here you are. And it's going to be officially a five unit building. Hopefully. Well, thank you. Thank you. Um, thanks for thinking to ask the question and end up in the right venue. Here you are. All right. So we're going to be looking at just a few sections of our bylaw to review this. We'll look at our general standards as we always do, including the minor site plan standards. And then as Meredith said, we'll look at the conditional use standards, which are that additional layer. And then we'll look at the conditional use standards. Which are that additional layer of review to make sure that a particular use is suitable for the neighborhood and fits in with a form and function. And based on the application materials, there is just one thing I want to highlight as we go into this, which is that what we're evaluating is basically a change inside the building. There are no changes to the footprint of the building. There are no changes to the parking configuration around the building, to the sidewalks in front of the building. So that's why the conditional use standards in particular are what we're looking at because it's about kind of impacts to the community more than the site itself. So with that, I'll walk through the sections. So with the dimensional standards, based on the staff report, it sounds like there is maybe an existing, a preexisting nonconformity. Is that correct Meredith? Is there a side yard setback issue? Existing nonconformity. Yeah. Okay. If anybody, if anybody needs me to, I can pull up the application so that other people can see anybody watching from work up, but yeah, there's the, the existing building is very, very close to one of the site property boundaries. But it's not going to change here. Okay. Well, that's just something we can note. And the rules are that it can remain a nonconformity. If there's no change to the structure or impervious surface, which is the case here. So it complies with the dimensional standards. The next sections within the general standards are. Have to do with demolition, riparian areas, wetlands and vernal pools, steep slopes, erosion control, and stormwater management. And staff has advised that these are all not applicable, but I will pause and see if any DRB members have questions about these, these areas. Okay. We'll, we'll continue on. Similarly, access and circulation does not apply. We don't have to review it under those standards because there are no changes being proposed. Same with parking and loading as the staff report indicates there may be some nonconformities, but since that part of the property isn't being. Is it implicated by this application? It can remain as a nonconformity. If you try and change a nonconformity, then that opens it up, but that's not happening tonight on this application. And then parking, loading and signs are not applicable. So the general standards are pretty much as is. Do DRB members have any questions about any of those? Sometimes I feel like I'm going kind of fast, but I don't want to belabor it. I don't want to belabor it. I don't want to belabor it. I don't want to belabor it. I don't want to belabor it. So I count on DRB members to flag things if necessary. No, you're doing, you're doing a great, great job and just summarizing it, Kate. I don't, about being. I think I think you just need to realize that, that your summary is good. It's not too fast. All right. Thank you very much. Onward then. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And it has been determined by staff that this is a minor site plan. And so we just look at a few of the items within the site plan part of the zoning. And the first is access and circulation to make sure that people coming and going to and from the property can do so safely on a variety of modes, whether walking, biking or driving. So. And. And. Ten required if desired, but. But as a starting point would want to ask, is there a place where tenants typically are able to store their bicycles in a sheltered, a sheltered place? Yes, there is. There's a big old barn attached to the back of the building. And there are four bays in that barn. And so the property has covered parking. The fifth unit would not have covered. Enough room for covered parking, but there is like a. A bay. Behind where somebody parks. And that. That would be totally available for this. For cold storage. So that would be a good place to store your bicycles. You know, bicycle, whatever. Okay. That's, that's good, good information. Nice to have a. Space for a variety of. Vehicles, if you will. Thank you. Any questions about access and circulation? Okay. So the next option here. And this, this doesn't apply if there's a change of use, which there is. And the site has been developed in line with, or the site has an existing site plan, which the site does not. Is that right, Meredith? Okay. Correct. So the staff, it's a change of use, but there's no site plan because it dates back. It's been a four unit building for a long, long time. It's been a four unit building for a long time, but it's been a four unit building for a long time. And the staff's finding, and you can see the pictures in your staff report is that as it's landscape today, it actually does meet the landscaping requirements. So I believe that the staff recommendation here is to kind of make it official, not do a whole bunch of new landscaping and planting, but to document on the site plan, what is already there. Is that, do I understand the staff recommendation correctly? Now I'm going to have to go back and just double check. Okay. I'm going to have to go back and just double check. I'm going to have to go back and just double check. I'm going to have to go back and just double check. That was my thought. And it would almost be filing. You know, maybe, maybe you could file something else, but it's almost like it's incorporated in here. And the staff report as to what's there. You could require a separate, you know, documentation on the site plan if you wanted. Or not. So let's see, let's, let's think this through. If in the future, if you want to, if you want to, if you want to expand the garage or reconfigure the parking. Or somehow change the driveway, which is unlikely. That would kind of bring this property back in for additional site plan review. At which time this question would come up again. Yes. And this question would come up again anytime site plan review comes. Yes. Okay. Okay. What, what are the, are there any questions or thoughts of, of board members regarding whether a sketch of the current landscaping is necessary to include in the site plan? I guess I, I mean, I don't personally see that as being an absolute necessity, but I also would ask the applicant if they would find that overly burdensome. So I would definitely be, I would certainly ask that. That sketch plan to the, to the planning department. Thank you, Kevin. I'm a horrible artist. So I'm spatially kind of challenged. So I'm, I mean, I think as long as I got enough direction, I could try and figure it out. I know my carpenter did this little site plan. with what you do have. I mean, your landscape plan now is quite attractive. I mean, it's, you know, very casual and a nice space from what I can tell. You know, you own the property five years down the road, 10 years down the road, you may not. Having some kind of documentation on file might be a good idea. Now, doing a site plan by a lousy artist shouldn't be a problem because it's just a flat represent, two-dimensional representation of structures and implanting materials. And it doesn't have to be accurate to the inch. It can be, you know, it can be approximate. Yeah, I mean, something maybe a little nicer than this. I can't see that. Oh, sorry. Like a real sketch. You could take the site plan that your engineer gave you and add some, you know, maybe large asterisks to indicate a shrub. Okay, I can do that. I can. And Meredith, is that? Yeah, I think that would be great. And Camilla, we can, you know, Audra and I can both help you with that. It's just documenting your big trees and labeling them, like have one symbol for the big trees, one symbol for the different kinds, each of the different kinds of bushes, one symbol for your medium tree, because you don't have that many larger identifiable items. And so we can totally help with that. And I think that would be something we could just put in the file. Okay. And so you want that the front, the side, and in the back as well. Anything that's on your property. Okay. Okay. Thank you, Kevin. You do make a good point about the future owner and ensuring that there's some records somewhere that the city acknowledges that the plantings are what they need to be and they need to remain. And that is my thought exactly. Great. There are currently five photos on the application. You could use one of the aerial ones and document what each one of those shrubs or trees are to make it easier if you wanted to. Okay. I think with this information, I can figure it out. Yeah. It sounds easy enough. And I have a daughter who's an artist. So she could always help me too. There you go. Yeah. Okay, great. Thank you. Thank you for being open to that. Any other questions about 3203 landscaping and screening? Okay. Let's move on to the conditional use standards. So what we're doing is we're thinking about- Actually, I have a question. Oh, sure. Sorry to- Yes. Now, that doesn't stop me from adding another tree. No, it doesn't. This doesn't have to be what it's always gonna look like as long as I'm a owner. Okay. You can add more pasta. You can move the burning bush. You can, yeah, yeah. The purpose of this is so that if I sell it down the line, that they can't get rid of all of this, is that the idea? Correct. Okay. What you're showing with this documentation of the landscaping is that your site is in compliance with the landscaping requirements. Okay. Yeah. I think even if you don't sell it, but wish to make further modifications, then this would also be on the record. Is that correct? Right. And it's also, if there is a provision in the regulations that says that trees or shrubs that are required to meet the landscaping provisions, if they die, even just on their own, then you have to replace them because you have to have a minimum amount of landscaping, whether it's for screening or other requirements. So it also means that once we've documented it, if all of your tall trees suddenly die, you're gonna have to plant something else in their place. I put a lot of the shrubs in. I used to live there before you owned the building. Oh, really? Yes. That's so funny. So I really like what you've done with it. Thank you. Thank you. I've put a lot of effort into the landscaping. So thanks. Good question. Thank you. All right. So for the conditional use standards, what we're evaluating is whether the sort of the incremental addition of this fifth unit to the building is going to cause burdens on different services in the city. And do I understand that the apartment is about 250 square feet? Okay. So one or two people most likely. Correct. Okay. So the first thing we look at is the capacity of community facilities and utilities and whether a fifth unit will cause a disproportionate or unreasonable burden on the city's ability to provide services. I think the staff finding is that it does not. Traffic, will there be an undue adverse effect on traffic? Same with just the same shape building and everything, but one more person in it, pretty unlikely. And then the third one is character of the area, which is laid out in the conditional use standards in our staff report. What it highlights is it's a traditional neighborhood adjacent to downtown. It's densely developed with historic multi-story residences built close to the street. All that is staying the same. The regulations are intended to protect this residential character while allowing compatible infill development, that means intensification and adaptive reuse of historic buildings. So that's the character that we're aiming to perpetuate. So those are the different conditional use items and do board members have any comments or questions about this fifth apartment and whether it will impact those things? I guess I just could ask one question and I'll just clarify here. So in the city's zoning strikes, there's no difference between the use of a rental, long-term rental versus an Airbnb, correct? Correct. Not currently. I mean, I don't know that it's under discussion and that wasn't meant to be threatening in any way, sorry. But it's only as of about a couple of months ago that the state even, the statute even changed to enable municipalities to regulate short-term rentals before some municipalities were doing that, but it was not broadly enabled by statute, now it is. So there aren't a lot of municipalities who have started doing that, but many are considering doing so. I don't know what any of those timelines would be one way or another. Okay. And then for this specific structure, I mean, right now, you're only the only unit that's an Airbnb is the fifth and the rest are long-term rentals. Correct. And actually I've decided that I'm not gonna do Airbnb yet, not during COVID. And so I'm hoping to do a short-term rental because if my son never comes back from Thailand, I want him to land there for a while. So that's what I'm thinking, like traveling nurses or people who are looking for three to six months at a time. Okay. That's a good question. Thanks, Rob. Any other questions? All right. So thanks for the testimony and the questions, Camilla. Is there anything else that you'd like to add for us to keep in mind as we deliberate on this? Just, I just wanted to add a little bit more information. You had mentioned that it was a four-unit apartment for a long time. Apparently when the smarts owned this building, it was five units for a while. And actually what I just put back into an efficiency apartment used to be an efficiency apartment. So I don't know if that is, relevant in any way, but it used to be an apartment way back when. Yeah. It tells us how adaptable some of these older buildings can be. So it's fun to learn the history. So when I do the landscaping on this site plan, I just submit it to the zoning. Okay. Okay, good. And then after you get it, then what are the next steps? So Kate, maybe just summarize, because I think we forgot to talk about deliberative sessions at the beginning of today's meeting. Yep. So that's a nice segue. In the past, we have voted right in the meeting on our decision about each project, but we've made a temporary shift. We consider it a pilot to deliberating in a deliberative session, which is closed to the public. And we do that to ensure quality decisions and deliberations during this zoom era that where we're finding ourselves. So what we're going to do is we're gonna close the public hearing on this application and then this board will talk about it and vote on it later this evening after the public meeting is done. And then Meredith will know the decision and we'll let you know. You'll receive a written decision with any conditions that are discussed such as we just discussed basically a condition that a landscape sketch needs to be included. And you'll know shortly after this meeting. And the other thing I will say is that we are doing deliberative session for all applications, no matter how simple, for the sake of consistency among applicants, between applicants. So I'll make a motion to close the public hearing and table this application until the deliberative session at the end of this meeting. Yeah. Sure, Rob, if I could do some friendly mixing, we're gonna entertain a motion to close the public hearing on this application and move into deliberative session at the close of the public meeting. All right. Yes. A second motion. Is that all right? And if it's okay with you, Rob, I'll second that. Yes, absolutely. Okay, I think we had a motion from Rob. I actually heard a second from Jean, I believe, right? That's fine. That's fine. I'll take a third from Kevin. So what we will do is we will vote on that motion by role. Joe. Yes. Kevin. Yes. Roger. Yes. Rob. Yes. Abby. Yes. Jean. Yes. And I vote yes. Okay, the motion carries. Thank you very much for your participation, Camilla. And if you have any questions, you can be in touch with Merida. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome to stay or you're welcome to leave. I'm gonna go have dinner. Please do. Okay. All right. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Bye-bye. Bye. All right. Okay. Great. So our next application is for 414 Sherwood Avenue. I'm gonna pull up my documents here. All right. This is a request for a 10% waiver of the front yard setback for construction of a garage and I believe we are welcoming Chief Pete to the meeting. Is that correct? Yes, ma'am. Hello. Hello. Thank you for being here. What I'm going to do is swear you in as a witness. I believe you're the only witness on this application. So if you'd please raise your right hand. Please only swear or affirm that the testimony you were about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth under the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Very good. Thank you. All right. So as we did with the previous application we'll get an overview of the project and then the DRB members will review the criteria of our zoning at which point there's opportunity for further conversation and clarification. So with that, Meredith, is there anything else you'd like to tell us about the project and by way of an overview? So as you said, this is generally a request for a front setback waiver for the Belmative Park garage. The site is a little interesting because you have a city stormwater equipment and storm drain and, sorry, culvert. And so their site's been restricted as to where they can build the garage because of that. There's also some slopes to the rear of the parcel. So those things are really pushed with the house and the garage more towards the front. And I mean, the house is existing, the driveway is existing and you've got the garage going on part of that driveway. And then in addition to the waiver request there's a couple of other just things for the DRB to consider where it meets some suggestions in the staff report as to how it might be able to handle them. So that's the questions about compliance with the steep slopes, the erosion control and stormwater. And when you get there, there were some questions raised in here, some things that the Department of Public Works had requested. And when you're ready, either Brian or myself can share a site plan. That was put together to address those, but we couldn't really circulate it beforehand. Great. Great, that sounds good. So Chief Peake, would you like to tell us about the project from your perspective as the applicant? Thank you, ma'am. Good evening. Good evening to the honorable members of the board. Thank you for the opportunity to be here. We're just hoping to put up a two and a half car garage roughly next to the house. We're very cognizant of the culvert. We wanna make sure that we're not going to impede anything from that direction, as well as if the culvert or there's some damage or if it needs to be repaired or anything, that the city will make sure it has access to it. So we wanna make sure that the garage is within standards so that you have to dig down. You do have that access. And we wanna make sure it's neat and just update it to the standards of the neighborhood and the city. Very good. Very good, thank you. All right, so what we'll do now, we're gonna be looking at the, again, looking at the general standards within our bylaw. These, oh, I'm sorry, did I cut you off? No. Oh, okay, let's take Zoom. And within the first part of that, the dimensional standards will also be looking at the waiver provision. That's the requested 10% waiver of the front yard setback. All right, so with that, we will jump in. You can see on page three of the staff report that the zoning bylaw, as it's written, automatically provides some flexibility for side yard setbacks and for rear yard setbacks when it comes to a garage, but it doesn't provide that same automatic flexibility for the front yard setback. So that's what we're talking about. Page four of the staff report has the criteria for the waiver that need to be met in order to grant the waiver. And I'm just gonna read them because I don't think we've done many waivers yet as a group. And we must, as a board, find that the waiver, if authorized, shall not alter the essential character of the neighborhood or the district in which the property is located. Substantially or permanently impair the lawful use or development of the adjacent property, reduce access to renewable energy resources or be detrimental to the public welfare. That's one thing. And we must find that the proposed land development is beneficial or necessary for the continued reasonable use of the property. So that is what we're going to discuss. And at this point, Meredith, I was hoping you could pull up page eight of the application packet. So this is a sketch of the proposal that just shows us really what's being requested. And so we can see what this two-foot waiver means. Oh, page eight of the staff report, right. Not of the staff report of the packet, the application packet. Oh, I don't have the big... Sorry, hold on, give me a second. Okay, I gave you the wrong page number. Thought I was all prepared. It's okay. I thought I was too. Yeah. Is this the one you want? The one with the picture. So I think it's the next one. Okay. So there's the garage. Can you see that or no? Yeah. Yeah. So what I think is worth highlighting here is the 20-foot setback that would typically be required compared to the 18-foot that's being requested. And so I wanted to see if there are any questions or comments from the board as far as how, whether you think the waiver criteria are sufficiently met. And since we're in the view that we're in, I can't see if you raise your hand, so feel free, dear members, to just pipe up if there's something that if you think it's fine or if you have questions. Well, I just kind of want to draw some attention to the note here. And I don't really see any issues with this application at all, but a little bit concerned about the process when it comes to determining front yard setbacks. And it seems like there is a path in the regulations that does not require much expense on the part of the applicant. So I don't know if the applicant can maybe, the easiest way to do is to go through their process of how we determined that this garage was proposed two feet inside the front yard setback or how the front yard setback was determined because I think we've got figure 3.01 of the regulations. I think provides a pretty clear process for how it's supposed to be determined. And I know that this is maybe how things have kind of been done by using the very convenient parcel mapper, but I don't know, sorry to keep going on here. My question is I just kind of like to review how the front setback was determined because I don't think it's necessarily except our waiver is maybe needed. Okay, so Rob, is what you're getting at that you see that the measurements from the right away as opposed to the edge of the road? Well, I think that if it's a right of ways or the front parcel line is unknown, which in this case, it's called out as approximate, which I see one in the same, that we should be measuring from the center line of the street per figure 3.02 on chapter 300 of the general standards. Okay, maybe I could start by kicking this over to Meredith for an explanation of how we decide about this before. So Rob, in general, your comment is very valid. In this particular instance, I know that says approximate, but I think they're saying approximate because we didn't resurvey it to confirm that it matches with this city survey. I had a city survey done when they were marking off this easement for the stormwater infrastructure. So this is a utility easement plan. And so the right of way was marked on there. And I think that's what the image we were just looking at and what the site plan is trying to duplicate. So Rob, are you making a distinction between the right of way and the property line? You're saying the right of way is not necessarily the front property line. Right, it would not necessarily be. Well, but this city right of way, that is where the edge of the property line is. And that came after the actual development was in place, correct, Meredith? So it's a pre-existing lot. And we know this is a very challenging neighborhood as many neighborhoods are in mobiliar. So we're talking about two feet. I'm just wondering if we're not over-complicating as the situation. I mean, this is the city right of way line because you can all see this page, right? This is page 57 of the staff report. So this right of way line is the city right of way. The city owns in between the right of way lines on either side of Sherwin Drive. They weren't necessarily measured out when everybody carved out their parcels and built their driveways and everything. So that front right of way is the property bound, which is what is then represented here. Okay. I think, I wonder if maybe we go with that for now. And then sometimes when we don't have a lot on our meeting agenda, Meredith asks for training topics. And I wonder if this might be something that we could explore and discuss in a theoretical sense. Because it's come up a few times in different circumstances and maybe we can understand it better as a board for application of future applications. I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, this is a sea change from the old, before the waiver there was a, you got a, help me out, Meredith. Oh, is it the variance? The variance, yes, thank you. I had a ward block there. So this is a big change from that, but I don't think we want to make it more complicated than the old variance process. Okay. Well, maybe I could appreciate your comment, Rob. And would you be, could we proceed? Yeah, I guess we can discuss maybe more specifically in deliberative session that maybe there's nothing that the applicant can provide. And that's where we are in the process. So I would be okay to move forward. Okay. Chief Pete, is there anything you would like to add on this? No, just we, again, we just want to make sure that we weren't in compliance and especially because of the slopes, any engineering concerns. So Vermont surveying and engineering did come out to help us survey the area, gave the best recommendations depending on the slopes and everything to place the garage and then Gendron will come out. And I understand they're very reputable and they have a very good reputation and meeting guidelines and specs. So we just wanted to have as big of an 18 to do this. So we did it correctly and we wouldn't have any mistakes or slips. I guess I just do have one question on that note. So did they locate the edges of the street and ability to establish the center line of the street while they were doing that at work? That part, sir, I'm going to make the assumption. I believe they did. Numbers aren't necessarily my strong suit, but all of the requirements that came out or that we were asked to make sure we were within compliance. We gave them everything and I think they kicked back and did all the surveying and the measurements for us for the compliance. Okay, good. All right, thanks for those questions and Meredith and Chief Pete, thank you for helping us think through that. We're going to move on and are there other questions about the waiver provisions and the compliance with them? All right, I think at this point, Meredith, we can go back to gallery view so we can converse. Great. So moving on the next set of the next section of the general standards is section 3007 steep slopes. And we've encountered this before. The zoning regulations require an engineered plan under certain circumstances. If you disturb a little land on a big slope or a lot of land on a little slope, that's when an engineered plan is required. And what we've gotten our site plan for this project is that it's going to be a 480 square foot garage on about a 23% slope. That is below the threshold where we require an engineered plan. That threshold kicks in at 25% slope if there's 2000 square feet disturbed. Do I have that right, Meredith? Are you talking to us? Sorry, not really. So 23% slope is what's behind where the garage is going to go? The garage itself is almost flat land. No one would want to build a garage on a 23% slope. Thank you, good catch. It would cost a lot. Thank you for that catch. So we've had good clarification that there's a 23% slope near where the garage is as well as a tiny off one tiny corner but there's a 35% slope. But my understanding from the staff report and Pete, maybe you can confirm this is that those areas, those steep areas will not be disturbed during the construction process. Is that correct? That is correct, ma'am. And we will make sure that additionally that we do have some silt fencing around so no debris or anything else goes into that drainage area. Okay. And I assume just because it makes sense that the construction equipment is also going to be staying off those slopes. Yes. Great. Okay. Questions from board members about steep slopes? Okay, thank you. So then our next section which was anticipated by your comments just now is erosion control. We've confirmed that the adjacent 35% slope is not going to be disturbed and that, let's see. To my right, the right spot here. You mentioned the installation of silt fences. So it sounds like you'd be amenable to a condition requiring those practices. Absolutely. Great, great. Thank you. Okay. And then our staff report notes that DPW, given DPW comments in the small area of disturbance the recommendation is that we approve this project without a professionally prepared erosion control plan provided that we see an updated site plan and abide by the erosion control practices. And I wonder if this is the moment to view an updated site plan. Would you like me to share that Brian? Yes, please. And just while you're pulling that up I'm going to kind of jump ahead a little to stormwater management section 3009 where there's a request that the final site plan show any footing or roof drain pipes and so maybe when you're giving us a tour of the site plan you can point out if those are on it already. Here you go. Thank you so much, Meredith. So what we've included in here was the line behind where the proposed garage would be would be where the area where we'll have the silt fencing and then the black line on the front that does run to the Southwest. We're going to do a drainage for any water runoff from the street as it slopes down towards the garage to catch it in a four inch PVC. We're going to bury the pipe roughly three to four feet to make sure we're below the frost line and then have the pipe coming out towards the same drainage area where the culvert's at and beneath the pipe we're going to make sure we put rocks and everything around to minimize any erosion from the soil. Great, thank you. So that touches upon erosion control and section 3009 stormwater management. So I'd look to board members for any questions. Thanks, Meredith. Thank you, Chief B. Thank you. Board members, anything? Okay. Very good. So we'll move on to the remaining criteria. So the next one is 3010 access and circulation. We've talked about this in our previous application and in this application proposal for a garage it's not going to change how the property is used. It's just going to change where the people are and the amount of time they spend draping snow off their cars. So there's not really an impact there. And similarly with the parking and loading areas the change is not so great that anything really applies here or are any signs proposed? So do board members have any questions or comments about access and circulation, parking and loading or signs? Okay, very good. So those are all the criteria that we needed to go through and discuss and thank you for the discussion. It's very useful. Chief Pete, is there anything else you'd like to add? No, ma'am. Just to thank you all very much for your time and your consideration and to Meredith and the entire team for really they had to pat me on the head and give me a bottle and walk me through a lot of it. So I really, really am grateful for them helping. Welcome. They're a great team. And I'd hazard to guess you're not the first that has been reported and padded and handheld and that is fine. That is fine. Really appreciate your time as well. I will let you know that to better manage our deliberations we will be taking this into a deliberative session that is the board members only and we will vote on the proposal and a written decision will be issued after. We're doing this for all of our applications even if they're fairly straightforward. So going into deliberative session does not indicate alarm necessarily with the application but written decision will be issued as soon as possible. Thank you very much. You're welcome. You're welcome. So with that, I'll entertain a motion to close the public hearing on this application and move into deliberative session at the close of the public meeting. So moved. Motion by Kevin. Second. Second by Jean. Any discussion? I'll call the roll. Joe. Yes. Kevin. Yes. Roger. Yes. Rob. Yes. Abby. Yes. Jean. Yes. And I vote yes as well. The motion carries. Very good. Thank you. We'll move on to our other business. Our next meeting is November 2nd. Is that right, Meredith? All right. And is there any other other business? Members of the Board for Meredith, go right ahead. Just for anybody who's watching on ORCA who might have been on to look at this other matter, the appeal of an administrative permit for 33 Loomis was tabled by the, it actually says on the agenda applicant, it was tabled by the appellant to the November 16th Development Review Board meeting. And so that's why you're not hearing that tonight. Thank you, Meredith. Any other announcements? All right. I will entertain a motion to adjourn into, to close the public meeting and adjourn into deliberative session. So moved. Motion by Jean. Second. Second by Roger. All right, Kevin. Not your night. Yes. Thank you, Kevin. Yes. Roger. Yes. Rob. Yes. Abby. Yes. Jean. Yes. I'll vote yes as well. The meeting is adjourned and we will move into deliberative session. I believe we will probably be receiving a, a Zoom link for that purpose. Yes, you, I sent it just a few minutes ago in an email. So you should all either have it or be getting it shortly. Very good. In that case, let's reconvene when we can get back in, take three minutes if you need it. But otherwise, we'll see you shortly. Thank you very much.