 Thank you very much indeed for joining us at the Open Data Institute for our Friday lunch time lecture. Today is a Data as Culture lecture. Data as Culture is the contemporary arts program for the Open Data Institute. We run exhibitions. We have an exhibition opening here on july 15th. We do programs and collaborations with different partners internationally. Art galleries as well as corporate organisations. We're in quite a long history of collaborations between art and technology, ar y cyfnod o gael arddangosol ar gyfer cyfnod arweithio arno, a i'r labiau fel y Llyfrans, y Cyfnod Gael, yn y Pethau Gael, a'n lefio'r ffaith i'r ffaith ym Mhwylwyr, i'r llyfrgyrchu yn iawn, i'r Llyfrans i'r Llyfrans, i'r Llyfrans i'r Llyfrans, a'r Ymddangodd neu'r Ffairianc Cymreu Cynon willwyr, ac yn ymddangosol yr ymddangosol ar y Llyfrans, ac yn fan ymddangosol, ac yn ymddangosol, ..a'r gweithio am gydyddol yn hynny... ..ynddo'n gweithio arall i'r hynny. Dyna'n ddweud hynny ymwneud... ..yna fyddwch chi'n meddwl ym mwyn... ..i hynny'n beddydd ar gyfer yn y gweithio... ..yny'n meddwl i'r ysgrifennu ar y ffordd... ..i canfodol i'r newid ymddangos... ..yna'r ffordd yma hwnnw. Ac mae'n gweithio ar y cwrs. Arianne wedi gweithio ym Mhwyllfa Cwm... ..yna'r 2008-2009. ac fel fagorio llwydd yn ymgylch gwybod hwylfynion gwybod hwnnw. Mae hwnnwom hwnnw haf oedd yn ei bêl i wlad ar y hwnnw yng Nghaertyn Gwybod Lleodraeth ac mae Lleodraeth Cymru yn dyfodol ar gyfer y rhaniaethau ar gyfer yng Nghaertyn Gwybod Lleodraeth a'r Rhonddaeth yw'r podeilol yma i gyfer y rhaniaeth yw'r ardal yn y gallu'r hwylfaedd yma, nad yna mae'r Cymru i'r rhain i gyfer yng Nghaertyn Gwybod Lleodraeth, a weithio am ddweud i'r Gymru! A'r program Arianne wedi ei wneud er加入od gyda'r newydd mewn bydd y byd yn gyfell i Llywodraeth Ac Arianne, er nid yn meddwl y gallwn i chi, yn ei wneud e frysg fydd yn gorllen gan gymuned. Thank you so much for joining us. Arianne Kirk? Um, wy'r erbyn a gwneud mwyfodol i'r bobl y gallwn ar gyfer am fyddwch chi angen. Yn mynd i'n dweud hannol, rydyn ni wneud yw ddim ymddangos yma, cyn yw'r cyfryd am yw, ac yna cyfrachain milenol ei wneud hyn wedi bod hynny. o why the arts should be at CERN, along with everything else, and what a curator can bring to CERN in terms of arts engagement, that was my brief. As Hannah said in 2008-2009, I won this prize. I said, you can go anywhere you like in the world. I thought, well, the most exciting places in the world are the ones at the cutting edge of knowledge which push frontiers further. I thought there's nowhere on the planet I'd rather go than CERN. I turned down lots of other opportunities for attachments in arts organisations and I deliberately wanted to go where science and technology was key because I believed that ideas are the nexus which hold us all together and are the springboards of the imagination, the science, the arts, right across culture. I'm just going to tell you a little bit about CERN so you can see why I was so excited. You probably all know about it. It was founded just after the Second World War as part of the Atoms for Peace project and that circle is the Large Hadron Collider representation of it and it spans two countries, Switzerland and France and the land is given for free for the Large Hadron Collider to be dug into the earth and one of the great engineers who actually helped build the LHC did the circle line so the kind of connections between the UK. It's an extraordinary organisation, one of the most international. I've ever worked at 100 different countries, 680 different institutions with 12, actually it's 12,500 scientists engineers working remotely as well as locally so it's 5,000 working locally and the rest are distributed. The great joke is you can even drive the LHC from your computer in India everything is networked in on an extraordinary level. It's got stuck in my mind. It seems sort of frozen quite dramatically the presentation. Is there anything I can do for film? It's always good when that happens. Anyway, so just to also, it's suddenly sprung into life. So, there it is again, the main site. Just below the Jura mountains it's about 7 kilometres outside Geneva and on the big circle you have four extraordinary detectors at four different points. Two of them working looking for the same thing so Atlas and CMS were looking for the Higgs boson together and they act as double blind checks on each other and the other two look at very different things like matter and antimatter and how matter basically won out in the battle of antimatter when the universe was born and the other one looks even further back at the primordial cosmic plasma as it happened and as you know these detectors are extraordinary because they basically take snapshots of the particles that collide right in their centre and go hurtling around the Large Hadron Collider just under the speed of light. So it is the fastest racetrack on the planet as they call it, 27 kilometres and people get around on those and those are the magnets but also people go around on bicycles, that's very important not just motorites, bicycles are key probably half a magnet would end there to there that's how wide a magnet is and they come from all over the world these magnets and they've done incredible journeys it's also the emptiest place space in the solar system because the protons are held in a vacuum as they are guided around, steered around and it's also one of the coldest places in the universe minus 271 degrees I've often thought you could have an incredible cry I mean it has one of the most incredible cryogenic chambers there so it could be a great scene for a horror film it also is one of the hottest spots in the galaxy because when the protons collide it's actually the heat, the generation is a thousand million times hotter than the heart of the sun which is incredible but these detectors are absolutely extraordinary if you think how many times your kettle breaks down or your washing machine or your vacuum and then you look at that and the trillions of connections there are in that and each of those detectors are prototypes they have not been built before, they're all working prototypes and that's also something I find really super exciting I mean it's incredible prototypes which very rarely break down and have trillions of connections so that's the Atlas detector and more about that later the mission of CERN is to push back the frontiers of knowledge develop new technologies for accelerators and detectors train engineers of tomorrow and unite people from different countries and cultures and the word knowledge is absolutely key there knowledge should encompass the arts because for me arts create a different form of knowledge which has all to do with the senses, the emotions, intuition and so my argument with the director general of CERN was hang on you've got most of knowledge but you don't have all of knowledge and you need to bring in these other forms of knowledge equally you can't call yourself a great cultural force in the 21st century just by being science and technology culture is the expression of what it is to be human so you need to have arts, science and technology because then you've got all the forms of knowledge together and you can show leadership in doing that so that sort of kind of clues my argument as to why the arts should be there and yeah so I was determined to really to make these kind of creative collisions and as you know all the ideas of science are incredible like particle physics for particular which is my passion so for example you think you're sitting on solid chairs but actually 95% of what you're sitting on has got holes and it's empty and you could be shooting down to the centre of the earth if there weren't other forces actually holding you up and all those things are springboards of the imagination just like for example the void the void is never really a void it's very very busy there are always things happening in it so for me arts and science are together because they're all about creativity all of them and the human spirit and that quest to discover and explore and my passion really is for particle physics in particular and I really feel that particle physicists are almost twin souls really because particle physicists you have the experimentalists who test what the theorists do theorists think beyond the paradigm in abstract and beyond working with a higher language of maths and experimentalists then test it out so for me that's exactly what an artist does practice of an artist your theorist and an experimentalist as well so the allegiance has always been there particularly with physics for example Fabiola Genotti is now the new director general of CERN and she had to choose between being a classical musician she was very much a classical musician at concert level, solo concert level and she had to choose between the two but she still practices every day but there's the alliance equally there's the alliance if you look at the 20th century this is like a massive gallop it's going to be like condensed gallop of a lot of stuff so if you look at the whole history of modernism and how that was influenced by Heisenberg and the notions of uncertainty but also Einstein in the notion of the observed and the observer and how our notions of subjectivity were thrown up into the kind of planet really modernism was so highly influenced by particle physics that like memes it went through our culture but equally it's been a two way race so you look at Finnegan's Wake by James Joyce three quarks for Mr Mark in Finnegan's Wake the extraordinary Murray Gellman the physicist went I want a word for fundamental particle I'm going to choose quark and he got that from Finnegan's Wake but obviously quark has a longer history than that as well so another argument for Arts at Cern is when I went there I started collating all the artists who had gone through so this was in 2009 when I was there so nobody had quite realised who everybody really was and that there was this massive legacy they obviously knew about Tom Hanks but they didn't really realise that for example they had had the black-eyed peas going through they hadn't realised that they hadn't realised Andrew Gersky nobody had really pulled it all together and particle physics was and does have this incredible kind of influence on our culture because it is all about the universe why and how we're here which is one of the key questions but there has always been Arts at Cern Arts happening always lots of engagement so for example Ken McMullen the filmmaker did an extraordinary programme called Signatures of the Invisible in 2000 which I looked at as part of my study to build on what had happened there that was an incredible programme where he brought 11 artists who he handpicked himself to Cern to engage with what was happening at Cern and equally as I've shown with the slide there have been artists going in and out of Cern like crazy so very random people have found their way in different ways and so it's always been happening so but when I went for my three months some attachment I did a feasibility study one of those boring things but the kind of necessary things for three months I sat down and looked at what had happened on the programmes and I discovered that scientists wanted engagement understanding consistency and contact and artists wanted structure guidance to produce the links why do I need this so for example world famous artists goes on the Signatures of the Invisible programme is left there on his own and makes a piece which I say to him oh why was that piece of sculpture you created so terrible because it wasn't your best piece and he said that's because nobody was there to support me nobody was there to act as a point of translation so this was my protest basically about it so I went right but I also discovered artists felt really cheated no scientists felt really cheated because artists would come in pick their brains and then go away and it's like hang on a minute where were you you were here and now you've gone and they wanted people to be part of their community because these are scientists who work in collaborations over 3,000 people all together working consensus so when an artist comes in steals their ideas and goes away they're like hang on we want engagement we want human engagement so those are kind of arguments really about why a curator is kind of needed to be those kind of bridge between those things to give consistency and engagement but also act as a bridge so Arts at Sun has three had three strands which I designed and founded a residency programme a research programme and a visiting artists programme I always make the distinction between residencies as being three months minimum because I believe it's deep time which will really change your thinking and your ideas about the world research one month I think you can only that won't change you fundamentally in terms of your practice and visiting artists come for one to two days and my successor Monica Bellow has created a new strand called guest artists as well so the idea was to bring arts and science on the same level within the institution to create a two way knowledge and inspiration exchange so that there was free flow between them to create equal exchange and respect and value and of course I founded a board which I brought in as well of high level people in the arts who's now at the Stedlick Museum she was one of the original founding members of the board and Serge Dornig from the Leonopra House as well as Michael Dozer who is one of the world's leading experts on the antimatter and there are creative patrons as well like Jacques Herzog who very much talks about particle physics being inspirational to his architectural practice all those patrons are people who've come to CERN and been inspired by it so creative collision between the arts and science was actually the whole programme was announced because I got hired in the end because I persuaded them that there was actually a need for this so yeah so I presented my findings of the feasibility study which was three months and then they hired me and they said are you on the two catches though there's one we want you to do it and B we're not going to fund it so more about that later I'll just leave that hanging in the air because these things don't happen without funding so in 2010 I arrived and a year later I announced Clyde at Sun having fundraised for it to happen and partnership brokered it for a year so partnership brokered with Ars Electronica Lins and City and Canton of Geneva for it to happen and we did a massive we announced it at the Ars Electronica Festival in 2011 when we announced the open call for it happening and the Ars Electronica Festival actually concentrated totally on CERN and talked about CERN was CERN a great way of going forward so this for me was a very strategic way of putting the programme on the map making it happen and the first artist who came was this guy so it was Eulis von Bismarck who you may know his work through the when he first started that is a very famous piece which one a prize is called the image for greater so it's a piece of kit where he goes to press conferences and points it at the camera of the press people it's both their picture and oh my god there's Chairman Mao with a dove of peace superimposed on top of him so that's what it does it's superimposed and it's a deliberate intervention into what and how and why the media acts the way it does and Eulis won the competition in open competition so the Clyde programme is won through open competition and there were 400 entries that year there were a thousand entries for Clyde actually so it's ramping up so it's an open call and that was very super important again because one of the feasibility studies findings was the scientists said oh you become an artist through who you know not what you do I went no no no it's a bit more than that but there's no such thing as quality measurement I said yeah there is and it's to do with the history of art for example you have to understand where somebody is placed and where they are so it was really super important that I didn't go in as a curator and go I'm picking this artist and you're coming here it was really important that I demonstrated and created a cultural understanding through actually behaving and doing and by example so we did we had juries with artists and scientists on the same jury together and the Clyde at Cern we had two artists in the first year the other one was Gilles Geban who won the city prize so I had an international prize and a city prize which still exists to this day and one of the fundamental things was I matched Julius with a scientist now this happens when you get selected as an artist there what I felt was really important was that the artist came three months before they actually started their residency and they come and they have a weeks worth of full immersion in physics so they're basically in the lab learning about physics like crazy and at the same time I'm actually doing an anthropological study which is really very exciting where I'm looking at the scientists and the artists interacting and trying to work out who would work together well and take each other further because I match and that still continues to this day the artist is always matched with a scientist who's their inspiration partner and again the language is very much about the quality and it's about the two people getting things from each other in an equal way and you can see those two are very playful very open, very engaged and they're still working together to this day what was also important about this programme was I deliberately made it so with this kind of statement nothing was going to be produced nothing was going to be produced that was a deliberate super deliberate political statement because I believe we've lost trust in artists because I believe very very strongly that we've become too product side orientated in our world and there should be some openness for experimentation and discovery and also because I damn well knew that if you get the curation right of course things will happen and things will happen and of course people will produce and make something get the curation right which is the kind of invisible mending which every curator does where you're kind of holding the space and creating understandings and disruptions sometimes between people so that the creative process happens and something will happen so for example Julius actually created something within actually about three months after he left he created something called Vesuchunthe Chrysan which is actually four lamps but you can only see three and they're all turning 68 times and then they come together 68th time and they're driven by data but what also happened very much was there was a kind of collision between him and the first artists the first choreographer Gilles Jauban and Gilles Jauban created a piece two years after he was at Cern and again I was very much I knew that you should never ever say a piece would be created in one month so two years afterwards he created a piece called Quantum which was well premiered at Cern and it became the winner of the Hermes Foundation Award and one of the crucial things also was that it linked with Julius' lamps because he fell in love with the lamps and said I want those lamps they're going to be part of my dance and the wonderful thing also is he did that intuitively without actually knowing Julius actually creates art through dancing he will go away and dance for 12 hours on all the time and he had always thought of those lamps being part of dance he had, so Gilles had no idea so those kind of intuitive collisions which happen, again another form of knowledge knowledge making is super important and I point to Quantum and say hey guys I said there'd be no product, voila because I know, I know it's a curatorial process right you select the right artists mixing with the right scientists you blend them together something will happen and also you do have the name of Cern and you know that with that will come funding of some kind some support so to be honest about that there's that also hidden cachet but we Cern did not provide any of the money for the production of anything so it was all about the creative process creating a fundamental research laboratory with poor artists with scientists at the world's leading fundamental laboratory and that's a very key thing again about matching the missions of an organisation with yeah, with what you're doing so Quantum's on the world's most endless world tour that's all I can say I had an email from Gilles yesterday he's in St Petersburg now with Quantum and he's off to Argentina in about two months time so it's been really picked up as part of the zeitgeist and another person who will interest you is Ryoji Akida who was the last artist I worked with in 2014 who actually made this piece before he came on the Clyde at Cern residency because he was so inspired by the visit he had done six months previously that he created supersymmetry before he even came and then afterwards created a massive piece which has been shown at was shown at Karlsru which you will see this piece which you can barely see because it hasn't come out is a piece which came out of the latest artists which is driven by data on data from black holes it's actually lots a web of arduinos if you imagine a web of arduinos above your head with pulsing lights and sending out sounds which are from data from black holes and it's called Hérison Ireselu and it was showcased at Cern about three months ago that's an extraordinary piece which came out another strand which works with different art forms and is the research strand and that has been ongoing at the moment and I deliberately started that actually in 2013 because I knew I was leaving Cern and also the director general was staying now the director general and I worked very very closely together and be damned if this arts programme was going to be stopped by a new director general coming in so I created an arts strand very much playing into the strength of Cern looking at making partnerships with two different countries out of the hundred countries around the world every year that would mean this programme would continue for 50 years and be funded working with the different cultural ministries and foundations before I went I signed off on all of them and all the contracts so the programme couldn't be killed because it was very strategic but also it was very necessary as well because there's been a big hunger for the programme from all the countries but they didn't want to fund an international prize so the funding from the international prize funding from private sponsors from private individuals actually art collectors they're all from art collectors and one scientist actually and they funded the big international programme but individual countries didn't want to so I created something out of that necessity these two were there very very recently they're from Taiwan it was a joint joint residency between a dancer and a data artist and we will see what happens with that project they've only been there so I suspect two, three years down the line though I think Pelling will do something on her own actually so she's an extraordinary choreographer who works already very much with data and is quite extraordinary the other strand I'm just going to mention it, visiting artists just one day if you create it possibly it positively and in the right way can make a difference so Iris van Herpen, one of the things I set myself before I left again with the challenge of let's do something really special and get on the catwalks of Paris because nobody thinks of physicists as being like trendy they come in different camps and I thought why don't we go for one of the world's most exciting fashion designers who is Iris van Herpen and who works very closely with the architect Philip Beasley so they came for a day and out of that they created this collection Magnetic Motions which has just won a massive European prize two weeks ago actually the first starts prize and it was Beasley founded on her looking at the being inspired by the patterns of the magnetism from the detectors as well as the magnetism from the earth's core and that is 200,000 times stronger than magnetism of the earth is the strength of the magnets of the detectors and she was inspired by that and created this collection from that and as she also said when she went round she was very very excited by it because she said oh my god it's so futuristic but the weird thing about CERN is it's very futuristic you have these incredible machines but they're all put together by hand and that's very beautiful that kind of contradiction so there's this incredible craftsmanship as we all know about technology when it's working with humans there is this kind of craftsmanship which we often forget about and every single element of those detectors is hand built and hand put together and hand checked it's quite extraordinary so in the shutdown for the last two years people have been hand checking every single little trillion cable quite extraordinary another person who just jetted in was this guy as one friend said to me what can you give the artist who has everything in the world who doesn't need anything but he hasn't done and he hasn't encountered his son so he came in and saw CERN and I was teasing him saying you haven't built a large hadron collider yet have you you probably know and some keeper has this incredible collection of buildings underground in the south of France where he tunnels and digs it with his own hands and I thought it was incredible to have the person who is obsessed by building but also obsessed by lead and I curated a visit where he encountered all the different kind of scientific impulses behind stars as well as lead and the properties and that got him thinking again in very very different dimensions again wait and see what happens with that work but he was very inspired and at the moment we've got a still winning lot surprises just when it's 11th prize is a project called supersymmetry which is a dance film opera which starts off in CERN was done by a Dutch director with Lukas Timolak who's the dancer and choreographer as well as a very extraordinary soprano it's only got four winner things there it's now won lots of prizes and that's extraordinary again so what does a curator bring so this slide has failed so I will just have to extend prize on this one I think what you bring is design and direction so I very much went what does CERN have CERN is about the missions I've told you, the missions of knowledge but also what it has is a beauty which I cannot really describe which is the beauty of the brains of the physicists who literally take you into different paradigms in different worlds and for me CERN was important and the way to do it was by mirroring the language so collision and collide all an accelerator, all terms they understand and know so to embed something new you have to use the same language so you're a bridge across cultures and languages but also a bridge within the process so when Gilles Jevant arrived he was there for a week and he came up to me after a week and went oh my god I'm panicking I really don't know what they're talking about when they're talking about wimpcillers, I really don't know it's driving me nuts and I said okay but you have something they don't have you've got this instinct and knowledge inside your gut and your soul so when you hear the words wimpciller and jet respond to it with your guts and your imagination, respond to it in a different way you almost need to understand because this programme was set up deliberately where it wasn't illustrating or describing the science it's very much about science's inspiration about the ideas being inspirational so again I was acting as a bridge with him and holding his nerve equally with somebody like Julius von Bismarck he didn't need a bridge because he was so hyper intelligent he went and had an argument about how to run the large Hadron Collider and he was really extraordinary at that but he needed stimulation and surprises so I basically every day I didn't tell him what we were doing and how we were doing it and when we were doing it so he had to turn up and then he was like I'd go right we're going to go discover how dark energy is going to be harnessed possibly for the future and then we're going to go up the far station or we're going to do something else so again it's about managing the creative process but also about the interest as well as creating the design and direction of the programme so as I said it's kind of curated process and creative experience and it's kind of interchangeable in that way but also what you can do as curators is gain access to the large Hadron Collider and turned it into the world's largest musical instrument so by actually playing the sounds of the particles coming out of the little sauce bottle where they begin their journey and the bottle's that big and it lasts six months and it's full of protons and we recorded the sound as they went through the first set of magnets and we took that sound and then played it back to the large Hadron Collider itself and then also played the sound of the C back to it using accelerometers which we attached to the LHC so as a curator if you win trust and understanding then you can make these things happen you can make these experiments happen on many different levels it's also I think about as a curator particularly at CERN I think it was very important to create interventions and playfulness and positioning one artist amongst five and a half thousand scientists what do you do and how do you make yourself sense felt but also how do you allow scientists to make sense of yourself in some way so we used to do interventions so Julius von Bismarck for example kidnapped 30 scientists and held them underground with me in the dark we asked them to volunteer I should say they were volunteers and we then took them underground into the LHC below actually the main building led them through the maze which we had memorised in the dark which spent a whole day memorising it and then we sat them down in different places and then said what do you see in your mind's eye you the people who think look for the invisible what do you see when you really can't see anything and that was quite an extraordinary experience and that recording we've still not released but we've got it but we still haven't released it so I think there's always this really important thing about creating surprise and within our culture wherever you are some form of disruption and one intervention again was one I did where he came into the CERN library which is the hallowed space of CERN and basically three dancers and he toppled through the CERN library dancing saying we are invisible in their heads even though they weren't and literally nobody noticed and I was sitting there on my computer sitting there going nobody's noticing and there were dancers hanging off the shelves going through the shelves and in a way and then they were turning and twisting for example in front of this physicist who didn't notice, didn't look up and by the time Gilles is the one in the blue and white and by the time they toppled past Gilles left a little note saying hello and that was it and this shot was totally un-staged the intervention was totally unannounced we didn't tell anybody it was happening and this went viral around the world so of course it created a lot of publicity in the Huffington Post and the Guardian but I think the important thing for me as a curator is it's a meditation and a demonstration of the absolute concentration of physicists and the absolute concentration of artists and how they have this incredible common language this common drive in their souls so curator does that oh I'm coming to the end but I also think it's about extra dimensions and the human into science and that's super important so this is Christof Rentser who listening to the sound of the power supply at CERN I mean you wouldn't really think the power supply would be that exciting but for him it was extraordinary in the sense that he was amplified to the point that he felt an incredible connection for it and this is a very hard-bitten scientist just like the scientist who we played the sound of the protons leaving the bottle he had guarded that bottle for years and years and he burst into tears and said oh my god I have never felt so connected so that's just a little snapshot tiny snapshot and quick, very fast run through but you can ask me anything but it's quite an intricate subject which I've made rather simple but we all print hands and we do indeed have plenty of time for questions I will bring the mic because we're streaming this and I'd like the online audience to hear it so does anybody have any questions Hi Haryann Hello Nice to see you again and that was a wonderful talk, thank you and you gave such a great insight into how curator and artist create wonderful work in surprising circumstances I was very interested to get your take on how the scientists or any public visitors responded to that work and I guess did you have to help them understand the value of what they were getting or did they get it immediately Okay so the response of the audience to the work well the audience is multi-layered so it's the scientists within the organisation it's also the public from way outside and it's also the local population as well who know what's about vaguely but think of it as a cult which is somewhere hidden outside Geneva I think so they're different structure that's such a complex question thank you very much so I'll try and simplify it so local audience they came out of curiosity and some of the times we did for example and still are doing are with local organisations and with the actual Collider itself and they came as they were intrigued and interested and it was tied in with tours also underground so there was a definite benefit for CERN to understand for the public to understand what was going on in terms of the arts audience they don't need an explanation so that's an easy one for the scientists that's an ongoing project an ongoing discussion because and Andy's a scientist who's deliberately who's behind you he there's an ongoing subject question because a lot of scientists sometimes understand art as illustration description and for throughout my five years I was endlessly having that discussion that no this piece is not meant to be describing your science it's all about inspiration about us coming together on an inspirational level and I had one scientist for example run up to me go oh my god that artisan resident has been here for one month and he still hasn't made anything and I went yeah but how long did it take you to build your experiment and he went 15 years and I went okay well think about that can we then have a think about that and he went yeah good point and from that moment Bollack understood started a process of understanding so I've always said that the CERN programme is and was and will always be a cultural change programme of understanding of different ways of making and discovering and knowing so that's a kind of brief answer for that so did the scientists find it disruptive not all scientists I mean did the scientists find it disruptive did they find it disruptive did they find it disruptive they um yes they I would say some did so for example we took over the whole of the refactory one day and turned it into a dance studio so that was quite disruptive in terms of disrupting their science as one scientist said to me the great thing about working with artists is it gives us a new way of looking and we realise that artists love the details and it can be really super frustrating but for us but then we understand and suddenly think oh details are really quite interesting as well and they start incorporating the ideas of details not being so bad in terms of finding a direction that it's not always linear that you can have these mad as you know as an artist kind of circles which then somehow get you to propel you over there um and other disruptive things I have to say on the whole everybody was super generous with their time because what unites them all is their passion and desire to communicate the science um and the passion about how the universe exists so actually yeah they gave time freely and with a lot of love actually yeah thank you very much for this um sort of expanding on on that topic um with respect to communicating to social networks to some degree with on the one hand you know the world showing a lot of cultural confusion written I think being a perfect example of that at the moment and at the same time IT becoming you know or technology science becoming more pervasive among social classes which are not necessarily educated to understand the significance of the universe but more look at you know their back garden and back yard I think in some ways arts and visualisation and graphics etc could have a potentially very powerful tool could be a powerful tool and could also have you know maybe so what I'm really really interested is any learnings any tools to bridge that gap between you know a fairly vegetarian well educated part of society and potentially a less you know maybe a disenfranchised social classes I think you're totally right um and uh yes I think um data and information has a great potential to um basically change the way we look at things for example the FT did that great um diagram this morning about UK's involvement with the EU and how we're involved and it's really interesting when you look at it because then you realise that actually we're not heavily involved and so what is this discussion actually really about we'll leave that up to you to decide but when you get data and information then combined data who somehow aesthetically touches your soul as well where you have an intuitive response which is connected with feeling and touch and sight and something indescribable which takes you further that is why and that is how data can even drive us further it can stop people being switched off by just going oh my god that's data and information or illustration of it so that's why the arts is so critical because it has this extra dimension which is indefinable and it's about that well you can't actually programme that can you but it can really move people any attempt to put that into I mean I frameworks are there to be disrupted but any way to put that into frameworks or learnings or do we have any learnings for us because I think that should all be our goal to explain and to avoid confusion so learnings from that are the thing is you kind of know when you see something which changes the way you look at the world and you know the feeling you individually but I wouldn't be afraid of emotion I'm saying I mean in essence if you look at what potentially happened last week that is all about human emotion so emotion can actually change things so if you create art which touches emotion in some way it can change things yes we've had examples in art history of things like for example Hitler for example working with that great architect in the way he was framing with Albert Spear the way that society was going and art has that potential of good and evil like we do as human beings also let's not forget criticality as well the data as cultural program here is all about art is critically engaging with data in the way we share it represent it, make meaning from it we've actually got a question from Canada online which is were there Serna scientists lobbying for particular artists or to be matched with particular artists and that's from someone called Rob Davidson yes of course they were yes they were very excited about being matched with particular artists and when and still are some of them just go yeah I really want to be matched with Serna so yes and most definitely yes hi Arian I'm Tim from Future City just thinking about your brilliant program in the wider context and I suppose I welcome your thoughts on how you feel the sort of general appetite particularly in the UK but maybe across Europe for for engaging amongst the general public with complex ideas around science because what we might crudely call the Brian Cox effect has seen science programs shifting from BBC2 to BBC1 the welcome collection is thriving the new science gallery in London Bridge and so on begins to sort of suggest there's a a kind of narrative where people are much more predisposed to engage with these ideas in public fora of different kinds and I just get welcoming your thoughts on that and how you think about your program and whether that you agree that exists and how programs such as your own should position themselves in relation to that if you do think it exists Okay I've written about that so I've written about that and I contributed to a report about that by Future by Future Laboratories and I've also written about it in the art newspaper totally agree with you there's a huge appetite for science at the moment as we go for a quest for truth and certainty within what we have is a disruptive civilisation at the moment so science somehow has ended up being the great place for truth but equally at the same time science has become much more adapted communication and has been much more open and creative in the way it communicates so for example the welcome collection extraordinarily creative hybrid gallery museum, event space using different things and again using science as a point of inspiration not only as a description it does both actually so yes those things exist and I totally agree with you equally arts programs are becoming more and more and more prevalent they've always existed between arts and science there's always been that traffic and that's being driven by economics as well to be absolutely truthful as I said my program not a penny was paid by CERN I fundraised fundraised for it myself so on my own but equally arts organisations or artists know that if they get attached to a science organisation they're more likely to get funding or they'll get funding in the future so that all these different kind of nexuses colliding at the moment on that in terms of positioning I always say with arts programs do not cookie cut do not cookie cut every single science organisation has its own and every science has its own different ways of operating and their own missions, visions and values their own ethoses and you have to be really you have to really think about those some one science organisation might say I want to illustrate and describe the science that's what I want, that's fair enough that's what they want to do, that's fine that's a different kind of art form another, I mean I was CERN was just open to fundamental research in the process so again you have to be like individuals very different any final questions? well thank you so much Arianne it's been wonderful and I hope that everyone will join me in thanking you, pleasure