 about this story. During the recital, there's a lot going on, kind of, Keith kind of said, he puts himself falling in front of me and hears a picture of this building, calling me. He said, I'll have to wait a little bit. He said, no, no. He said, that's our building. I said, what did that happen? He said, 10 minutes ago, Ray's secret was in there. No, it was when NSS was here, Karen and Keith, who always found something, probably wanted to ask you something. But here is this kind of thinking that I'm saying, this looks much different. Here, I don't want to see this. But it was, I mean, within minutes of my telling of that story. That's business. This, like, July was, like, very sudden. That's the way I had a lot to do it. This last weekend, from the start of the three months. From the start of August. I don't know what today was, but... Maybe it's everybody coming to get their chair and comments. And it might be that also, yes. But, yeah, I was working yesterday. I had virtually no people in, but I had a decent day. The last customer of the day, at 3.58 p.m. was the last customer of the day. First lady, we go to 4.30, but don't care. No, I'm spending money. She can stay. That's strange here. Are you going to open on Sunday? We are open Sunday. I'm usually open on Sunday. I'm not open on Sunday yet. But to do for the Sunday of the week. The next day of the week. I like it. It's a long story. We're still here. To back the way we were. I heard these in a party guarantee that I'm free. And to just, that's okay. I'll do it. I'm free on Sunday. And to just, that's okay. That's okay. I'm free on Sunday. I'm free on Sunday. That's okay. I'm free on Sunday. So, that's okay. I'm free on Sunday. That's fine. But it was only at the exclusive cost of, you know, it was their trustee to take over this company. It was their worth of power. It was a big, big, huge amount of money. You know what I mean? So those could be either some 4% of the money. Great. I'm getting the money. I haven't really unvalued it. I don't know how many communities talk to our wall. To our wall. Good. What she likes? Oh, yeah. It's all right. It is. It's all right. All right. It's all right. It's all right. It's all right. Get it close. That was Michael Boublé. All right. Boublé. Yeah. Is it? You know, I'm not super on those. Very good. All right, well, I am going to call to order the regular meeting of the South Burlington City Council of Monday, August 5, 2019. And we're going to start with the Pledge of Allegiance. And since Kevin is in rare form, we're going to ask him to leave. Rare. Rare? I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, a nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. That's because we work you so hard, Kevin. We're glad you got a good vacation. Very good. All right. And now you will lead us on instructions on exiting the building in case of an emergency, please. Yes, in case of an emergency tonight, please leave by one of these two side doors and proceed out through the parking lot and around the building to the south and gather in the parking lot to the south beyond the building direction. If these doors are somehow blocked, please go out in the main lobby and out the way you came in and proceed to the same location at the next building. Tom Hubbard and I will be responsible for making sure that the building is cleared, so please leave right away. We have an emergency. Very good. Thank you. And number three on our agenda is the agenda review. Are there any additions, deletions, or changes in the order of the items on our agenda? All right, seeing none. We'll move on to item four. Comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda. And Sandy, would you come to the table and identify yourself for the record, please? I'm here to share my concerns regarding the council's action on July 15th, approving the award of an estimated $175,000 contract related to a recreation facility in Veterans Memorial Park. The proposed work will provide more of the details of the design and confirm the public needs and programs. Had we, I mean my husband and I not had visitors from Germany on that date, I would have attended that meeting. Due to my concerns, I ask that you reconsider this action. My reasoning. At least once a week, some credible entity articulates concerns about the health of Vermont's current and future economy, related to the fact that our population is aging and it is not growing. Our working age population is shrinking and young people are leaving the state. The state's bond rating has been downgraded twice due to these trends. What can we in South Burlington do to affect the scenario? South Burlington's pride and joy is its school system. It is a major reason why young couples and families move and remain here. I cannot think of a community attribute that has a greater impact on bringing families with preschool and school-aged children to South Burlington and keeping them here. There is widespread recognition that our middle and high schools are in need of major and costly capital improvements, most likely replacement. For the best interests of our city, this is the time to place the highest priority on investing in our schools. I see spending $175,000 for the design of a recreation facility as a competing proposal. We should not be wetting residents' appetites for such a facility when we have a higher priority needs. According to the other paper article on this subject, the most recent cost estimate for this facility was just under $20 million. Let me be clear, I am not opposed to a recreation facility. However, I am opposed to pursuing and building one at this time. In the 180 Market Street other paper article that was last week, a loose estimate of the cost of the new schools and the recreation facility is $200 million. I am concerned that the tax-paying capacity of city residents is being overestimated. In the same article, both Council Chair Really and School Board Chair Fitzgerald comment on the potential for adult recreation and performing arts needs to be met in a new school. In addition, other potential needs loom on the horizon. Burlington and the state may not be willing to pay for sound mitigation work on residents' houses in the Chamberlain neighborhood, while FAA assistance will take decades, following the arrival of the F-35s. South Burlington may see the need to pass a bond to create a loan program that these residents can use to pay for making their homes habitable. Yes, it would likely be disruptive to Halta's contract. But I have never seen a contract that did not contain an out clause. To promote the best interests of the city and set an example of common sense prioritization, I would submit that it would be the prudent and courageous thing for the Council to do. Thank you. Thank you. And there is a copy for Chair Really when she returns. Oh, I can. You got it. I'll give you another one. Actually, there were two extra, Sandy. I put one back to the public, but there's not much public. As you know, Sandy, we cannot respond to you at this time. I know. But I appreciate the thoughtfulness that you put into this letter and lying out your concerns. I don't feel necessarily responsible to speak for the entire Council at this time, but I will say for myself that I am aware of all of these concerns. And I'm sure my colleagues are as well. So I hope that you choose to act on them. Right. I do not see other members of the public here. So we are going to move on to number five with announcements in the city manager's report. And we'll start with Tim. Am I right here? Sure. So I was gone a couple of weekends this month, but I was able to attend the pension advisory board meeting. And things were looking great until, well, today at 4 p.m., probably. But what goes up must come down, and it goes back up and comes down. So I mean, I don't know when this will stop, but that's the nature of the market. So we did have a TDR meeting last week on Tuesday, I believe. And that was from 7 o'clock at 30. They had a hard stop. We know one of our final draft, which then was presented by Michael at the IZ meeting, which I attended. And that's all in the report. I have nothing else to add right now. I've been out of town more than I've been in town the last couple of weeks. Yeah, so some things coming up. December 8th, Sunday, ugly sweater run three. It's new and improved. It's going to be out of the middle school, and we're going to do Market Street, Dorset Street. So all the runners, we need to get our ugly sweaters and run on Sunday, December 8th. Also this Thursday, I've been invited to the Dorset Farms board meeting. They have a lot of concerns about Midland Ave connecting with South Village. And so they're really exploring. They're very sensible about it. And I share the same concerns. That's my favorite neighborhood to take the kids trick or treating. And if cars can connect to Spear Street, I'm thinking stop signs make a lot of sense. And they seem cheap and easy. So I've been talking with a few residents, and they're really hoping to make the case to the council for why we should look at lining the schedule of some of the safety measures, either as the road opens or as soon after as possible. But I'm sensitive to costs and doing things right the first time. But I'm hoping Tim will be there as well. He's invited. But if he's back from his event or not, but I'm sure we will hear more from Dorset Farms. You've seen the weather report for December 8th, right? Yeah. It's supposed to be nice. It's going to be a beautiful day. What I saw was a major snowstorm. Nor'easter that day. I'll make it more of a snowstorm. The sweaters will get uglier. More chilly for all. Nothing like planning ahead. Don't rush it. Would more than the two of you be going, in other words, David, would you or Megan be going? Is this something I need to warn? For what? Ugly sweater? For the meeting of the Dorset Farms. Just to make sure you only determine I, if you all would like to come. I've been invited. I'm not here. OK, good. You'll report back on that, I would hope, right, at the next meeting. All right. Well, I just wanted to give my kudos to Tom for riding his bike to the meeting tonight. At our meeting on, it was Monday, right? Last Thursday, thank you. I don't know which day of the week it is. We were discussing the abolishment of minimum parking requirements in the city. And that led to some discussion with a neighborhood resident. And so I think that there will be more to follow on that. And I sent you all, at least my counselor, fellow counselors, a copy of a city lab often has very informative articles on kind of things that have been tried out in cities and how they're working, where they're working, or not working, and why. And so I sent an article out to my colleagues. And I'm sure we're going to be having more discussions on that. I also had a discussion with a neighbor of mine. He lives on White Street. And White Street is an alternative to Williston Road, which, as you know, is a very busy road. And White Street can get quite busy. It can also be particularly kind of a straight-arrow shot, particularly risky at times, where some drivers do not respect the 25-mile-per-hour speed limit. It is, of course, where our school is located, our Chamberlain Elementary. So the school is not in session currently, but there are children who do cross at the crossing in order to use the playground. And he has been witness to drivers who do not respect pedestrians, including children, trying to cross that crossing with lights flashing. And I want to remind everyone, especially the viewing audience, since we don't have much of a public here, that pedestrians have the first priority at all times in our city. He also has noted, and I think it's because he's been driving, that cars pass other cars on White Street, and often going twice the speed limit. So I brought this attention to Kevin, who contacted our chief of police. And they'll be on it. So that's very good. I'm very glad to hear. As they do on Spear Street, all too often. That's an excuse. The third thing I wanted to mention is that last night or yesterday afternoon, I was a speaker, one of three speakers at an event. It was the Guardians for Peace and the Planet. They had a very peaceful and very fun and kind of festive celebration. Common Roots provided some food and drinks. And there was music as well as some puppetry. And I just wanted you all to know that I spoke out about my concerns over the basing of the F-35. I spoke as a single counselor. And you can, of course, ask me for a copy of my comments. They're available on my Facebook page as well. And it was a really nice event where people came not only from our neighborhood and our city, but from all around. I think there were people as far as Hinesburg and Shelburne who were there. As you might know, there are at least seven associations and organizations that are now working on this effort ever since the F-35's role, prominent role, in our nuclear strategy has really come to the surface. So I will continue my work on that. And that is all I have to report. Kevin. Thanks, Megan. We had another great Sobu night out. Council was busy that night with your joint meeting with the Planning Commission. But I'm here to report that it was another fabulous evening. Great band. Thanks a lot. Lots of people. You set your own dates there. And sorry we all missed it. Another one this Thursday. So every Thursday night. So please go out to Veterans Park and have a great time. Justin will be in in a little while. Talk about Market Street. We've got some good news on paving there that I'll let him talk about. Also, Tom and I met with David Young. But we'll bring that up under item seven on the agenda, city and school collaboration. Tom and Coralie and I met with Freeman French Freeman last week on our initial weekly meeting on the indoor recreation facility design. I went to a meeting last week with a community health investment program where they get all their recipients of their grants together. This is the University of Vermont Medical Centers, more or less the foundation. It's the way they invest money, that is excess income. And $100,000 went to community outreach this year, so they have a meeting with all their recipients. And it was very informative and useful. The date for the lunch for the DPW staff up at Wheeler is proposed to be the 21st of August. So I wanted to check with you all and find out if that was good for you. It's a lunch. It's a lunch. What day is it? It's a Wednesday at noon up at the house. So if you can let us know now or you're good, Megan? I actually will not know until Monday of that week until 19th. I can't tell you today. I may or may not be here. I think Helen's back. So let me know if you can. But if it looks at at least four of you are able to make it, well, because scheduling's tough this time here. That's at Wheeler? Yeah, Wheeler. And the common roots will be serving, so to speak. And that's all we've got. Thank you. Can I just add one thing? Sure. So I wanted to express my gratitude for the community collaboration for mental health counselors being available for public safety and fire department. Because I saw a report on this EBS news that was really, really disturbing. Maybe other people saw it as well, where a young man was having a psychotic event somewhere in the Midwest, I believe. So he was a trucker pulled over because the man was running around naked in the road on the interstate. The trucker pulled over. Police got there. The guy was sitting on top of the cab. They talked him down. They took him to the ambulance. They talked to him. He was silent. He wouldn't respond to any questions. He wouldn't give his name. The EMTs were not very nice to him. And they ended up just giving him back to the policeman who put him in his car, which took him to the next town, let him out at a closed gas station, where he then ran out to the highway and got hit and killed. So I think this just points out the importance of being able to understand people who are having psychological episodes. And the more that public safety and fire department learn about how to deal with them from the people understand it, the better the outcomes. So I'm really appreciative because apparently they didn't have that. We, of course, were all of the unfortunate recipients of bad news over the weekend in El Paso, Texas and in Dayton, Ohio as well. So yes, let us extend our thoughts to lots of people who are really having a hard time. And there's lots to be done in this country, I have to say. That's why we're here. So let's get done what we can in our little corner. Without any other comments, we'll move on to item number. Can I ask who our guest recorder is tonight? I think it's ABC News, but. My name is Mike Hoey, a recorder from Global 22 and 44. Oh, OK. Thank you. Item number six is our consent agenda. We're going to be looking at our disbursements. We're going to be looking at accepting irrevocable offers of dedication for Willowbrook Lane and of easements and rights of way for sanitary sewer pump station and associated infrastructure. We're going to also look at the acceptance of Commerce Square Shopping Center stormwater permits under the city's MS4 permit. I have a question with regard to that. I have a question on the warrants to just one little tiny one. An agreement to reconstruct stone hedge drainage swale. An award of construction contract of the construction contract for the Kennedy Drive stormwater ponds five and six. And finally, to approve an update to the planning and zoning fee schedule. So we can either have a motion and a second or start with discussions if they're big obstacles. Quick discussion. So I move that we approve the consent agenda. Second. Hand cuff pouch, $184. Why does a hand cuff pouch cost that much? Or is it several hand cuff pouches? That is an answer I'm not going to have. Be happy to find out. So yeah. And then there was $1,000. That was $1,300 for t-shirts. But it doesn't say who it was for. Like if it was for the rec department or something. Probably the camp shirts, but I'll check into that. And then San Remo light replaced. Did they replace the hole? What did they replace? So that was part of the energy efficiency project. Yeah. OK, OK. Thank you. Correct? Justin? Yeah. That makes sense. About the right price, too, so OK. I'm ready for the vote. My question with regard to item number C, acceptance of the Commerce Square Shopping Center stormwater permits, has to do with this is a commercial property, if I understand, from the title of it. And is it usual for us to handle all these MS4 permits and all of the maintenance on a commercial properties? Very good. Yeah, Justin, please. Good evening. Justin Rabbit, the director of Public Works. You probably won't recall, but in October 2016 or 17, the council approved updated rules within our stormwater world that were as a result of state policies. Essentially, the state kicked the can and empowered municipalities to provide umbrella coverage for properties, regardless of the nature of their use, which is different than us, for example, completing a stormwater project in a residential neighborhood and that infrastructure being conveyed to the city. In this case, we're providing them with permit coverage under our MS4 permit, which is kind of the master EPA level stormwater permit. There is no way for commercial properties of a certain size and age within the state system to get coverage easier than this. So we worked with Parmalo Development, the owner of the property, and this is the stormwater pond that's right at the end of Midas Drive on the right. So you're correct in that this is a little abnormal. This is one of the first ones that we completed and constructed under this new paradigm, if you will. So we should be expecting more? There will be more coming forward. This is the drainage area for this, Justin, is beyond just the park. It's a very large range area. Essentially, kind of Mayfair Park, Chamberlain, Melissa Road, all that entire that makes its way to the headways of tributary 3 of Potash before it eventually snakes underneath Market Street and then under Dorset Street, et cetera. So it's a large range area. They happen to have the land available for us to work on the project, and they had a need for improvement as well. So they were a good partner for a lot of reasons. Do they pay a fee for this? Yeah, so the project was broken down by the percent impervious that each of us owned. So I believe it was 8416. The city owned 84% of the impervious area. They owned 16%. So every step along the way, they were contributing 16% to the project. My questions are answered. Are there any other questions on any of the items? All right, we have a motion and a second. All those in favor of approving the consent agenda? Aye. All right. Before Justin, can I ask you an unrelated question as long as you're sitting there? I think we all had an email from somebody in relation to the traffic and the intersection at Tilly Drive. Yes. Have you talked about that already at some point? Not. And Helen contacted Kevin. It's a state highway, which makes it. But I would. The email made its way to me. I replied to Manager Dorn, Council Chair really, as well as the resident, informing them that the jurisdiction at this location is a state highway. I forwarded the concern but the lack of visibility to the District 5 office in Colchester. And I also informed the emailer that there are Act 250 permitting conditions regarding the level of development on Tilly. And once it hits a certain level, I don't know exactly what that number is. My traffic signal is triggered at that intersection. So the resident has been contacted? Yeah, it was probably early to middle of last week. Yeah. You think you might be able to find out what that tilting point is? Just I actually thought of that the other day. Yeah, Paul and I will do some research on that. When I went through there, it was for cars waiting to turn left into Tilly Drive with traffic coming the other way. I'll bet I was in a line of 15 cars without exaggeration with a steady steam of traffic coming the other way and thought, at some point, we need a light here. Justin, what's the status of this CCRPC, the broader study? And Paul's here, too, the broader study on Tilly Drive? We're probably somewhere between 95% and 99% complete. And that looks at additional transportation connections and options, such as 12B, Swiss Street extension up to 116, connecting Tilly to community, changes to Old Farm Road, as well as the O'Brien farm development. So it was a much broader, kind of more of a macro than should we put a signal here, but yeah, that's nearing completion. So it would be the state that might be able to come and mow that sight line where the vegetation is derived? Yes, they do mow it. I don't know what frequency. Clearly, in this case, not frequently, not. Yeah, because I am currently now like e-bike commuting and I take Tilly Drive, so I see the traffic there. And I'm in it because I go down it and I come back out at like 530. It's not that bad at 530. I'm sure it's worse the other time. So I share the concern. We'll follow up on the permit condition, though, and send it back to the manager. And can you keep that resident Cathy up in the loop? Certainly. Great. Thank you very much. Thanks. All right. Item number seven is city and school collaboration. And I don't know. Are you going to lead us in this discussion? Yeah, for this, at a prior meeting of at a prior meeting that Tom attended, there was a discussion about how we wanted to update the public and the council about what we've been doing in discussing common issues, mutual interests with the school. Tom, you want to just highlight what those issues were. And then Tom and I also met with David Young. I want to talk about that. Yeah, so a week ago Friday, we had our monthly city school meeting. And Helen and I and David Young and Elizabeth Gerald attended. And we had a good conversation. A couple of the things that we talked about was sending each other's agenda to the board members and to the council. So we've done that. We've made sure that David's received it. And I think we're going to be adding all the specific school board members' emails to our listing that goes out on Friday so that they have the agenda. They just want the agenda. They don't want the whole packet that you all receive, which has an enormous amount of info in it. And one of the additional things they felt would be helpful is if there were any significant items that were going to be discussed under city school collaboration the way it's listed tonight that there'd be bullet points. And they would do the same so that there was any specific agenda item under general school city collaboration that we'd each listed and kind of trigger whether or not someone should attend. Justin happened to be in the building that day. And I asked if he would come in and give an update on Market Street Reconstruction with school opening up. And we'll save that for Justin's participation because there's some good news there. We talked a little bit about master planning and visioning and that whenever the city or the school moves a project forward that we look at synergies that would be reasonably compatible with each other. And just talked in very general terms about that. And then we kind of defined our next meeting as Friday, August 23rd, where the group will meet again for the next time. Kevin, I don't know if you wanted to follow that up with our discussion with David last Friday. Tom and I met with David. This is August 2nd that you're talking about. Yes. August 1st. That was our meeting, August 1st on Thursday. OK, August 2nd. To discuss, as Tom said, the master planning and visioning project that they're engaged in and where there might be some synergies between the city's interest and the school's interest principally around performing arts and recreation athletic facilities. So we had a really good conversation about that. Talked about a lot of different options. And David briefed us in a little bit about what their thinking was around recreational facilities generally for the school and how additional facilities might be completed for the city. Are they going to start a swim team? That issue came up, actually dominated the discussion. And the need for an indoor pool, I don't know that we talked about anything else. Tom's name came up with it. It kind of went together. I'm being circumcised. I'm being circumcised. I was going to start in a little bit. Sorry, Tom. I couldn't resist. Going to bat for the outdoor pool. That was bad. I shouldn't do it. It was fine. We did talk about a lot of different components of it. And it was a very good conversation. We've agreed to follow on to try to get a meeting together with the folks that have been working on the Performing Arts Center and to continue to put David in touch with our architects and the consultant working with our architects around a program. So our consultant is familiar with what they're planning to do. So it was a real good meeting in probably an hour and a half. And we've got two follow-up meetings from that. What is the kind of outcome that's hoped for in David's discussions with his designers? Is this something that could somehow be envisioned as a city school facility of sorts? We want to explore the opportunities for both of those aspects of their plans. We pretty much know what our program is that will be confirmed by the work of our consultant, who will be doing some more community outreach. On the rec center? On the rec side. On the rec side. So we'll just see. It's very preliminary. But we do have a very knowledgeable consultant who we're working with us on program issues and out public outreach. Anything else? Oh, no, that's it. All right, very good. Continue to, I hope, have those discussions. I think they're really important to get back. It gets back to what Sandy Dooley brought up. I think it's something the community wants us to do pretty strongly. Number eight, update on Market Street Reconstruction and also on the 180 Market Street Community Center project, Justin and Alana. Hello, is there an order you would like this, in terms of what project first? I don't know. Which one's dessert? I don't know. We'll go with the one that's underway, the Market Street Reconstruction Project. As Tom alluded to, the school was very happy to hear that next week, the week of August 12th, we will be putting down the base code of pavement as part of the Market Street Project from Dorset Street through the school intersection, so where the road's currently closed off. That will give the road, through its entirety, a nice, travelable surface. Particularly, we didn't want the return of school to have to deal with the conditions as they've been. And then, essentially, once that is done, we start working kind of behind the curb and generally out of the way, again, key phrase being generally out of the way, as we're doing silver cells for tree planting, street lights, utilities behind the curb, the curb itself, the sidewalk, the rec paths. A lot of that work, while still will requiring us kind of moving up and down the street, bringing materials. But we're no longer just in the middle of the road with a pile of gravel 10 feet high that folks are kind of navigating around. So in terms of ease of access from the quality and condition of the ride, and, the level of friction that will be felt from the commuting and the Marcot public, things will be greatly improved. Come, I think they told us the, I'm gonna get the date wrong, but the 23rd is maybe when there's in service. And then, that last week in August, they're back in school, full fledged. So all the items I just described in terms of occurring behind the curb, there's kind of occurring in a winnier nature throughout the project as subcontractors kind of come and go. All of it leading up to the final task in late October, early November of completing the project. And the last thing that we will be doing is putting on the top coat of asphalt and pavement markings. If you've been by there recently, you've noticed landscaping starting to take shape, particularly in the middle of the project. The stormwater pond really looks gorgeous and it's coming along really nicely from a landscaping perspective. We're almost fully buttoned up on the east end of the project in terms of work outside, which worked out great because I believe those 12 new apartments started occupancy on August 1st. So that project owner has been very involved in our weekly meetings. So it really helps us know where we needed to hustle a bit for when they were gonna have moving trucks and et cetera coming in. The schools has recently started attending our weekly meetings within the last month. They've been a couple of them and that can't do anything but just help the process and communication. So we're getting near the end, but the real message is to the folks that had to kind of endure both our presence and the in the conditions and the road conditions. This time around as they return to school, we'll be greeted by a nice coat of pavement and not as many people in the road working. Excellent. Superb. I have two questions on that. Please, yes. So the plantings look great. Is somebody tasked with watering them every day? Yeah, well, water as needed. The landscaping contractor holds a one-year warranty on the plantings. So it's in their interest to... If they don't, particularly since this is a state project and every time you're working on a state project you are being evaluated for future work on state projects. Yeah, so there's a one-year warranty with all landscaping materials. Is it really great like... Generally, generally five to eight percent of the landscaping is gonna fail regardless of anyone's best intentions and those will be replaced at no cost. But yeah, it is their responsibility. And so when parents are bringing or parents are driving into Central, Dorset Street will be paved. When they wanna turn left onto the driveway that gets to the school, what surface will they have then? To the extent that the driveway has been disturbed that will also be returned to a paved surface. So it'll be paved as well? And we're now gonna have a little bit of creep and overlap with hopefully as 180 market streets, City Hall Library, Senior Center. Just tell me what to call that project by the way. Gets moving, they'll be doing some work on the relocating of those drives. So there's about to be two things going on right next to each other. And I'll maybe wanna kick in with the update on 180. Sure, so we're still in the throes of permitting as you may have been hearing some updates. We do have our 250 jurisdictional opinion. We have two decisions from the DRV miscellaneous permit which is related to setbacks and doorway openings and some of the frontage glazing. And we also have a decision regarding the subdivision of the entire, that big lot into the new street and the site for the building. The school district has signed, as I hope you're aware, has signed off on both an addendum to the agreement, the stormwater permit, the construction general permit and the site plan for 200 Market Street which is the new address for the central school. And through that process, we also worked with them on the construction phasing to come up with an agreeable solution. We'll continue to work with them as that is implemented through the construction process. And so looking forward, the site plan application for 180 Market Street is complete but needs a signature from the property owner so they're looking at that now. And then we'll also be working with them on the property transfer so for the city to purchase the property and complete all of that as well as any easements that go along with it. And we'll be doing the same with Allard Square over the next few weeks. And then the Reath Buys plans for stormwater we'll be looking at those for pricing along with the contractor, the city's contractor angle berth and as well as smaller BE items so no big changes to the project but we are looking for cost savings throughout the project. So things like changing out the sinks or in ways that we can save the money. Is stormwater still going through the permitting process? Stormwater, yes, stormwater has started going through the permitting process. We know earlier in the year it was generally a 90 day process and we'll see how it goes for this. We are looking at breaking the project looking at the project in pieces so that stormwater is one of the last things that will be constructed. It'll occur with the parking area. So we'll be as we obtain our permits we'll be looking to see if there's anything that we can start in advance of other parts of the project. So which brings me to the schedule. Currently we're looking at a fall start. So that's if everything gets signed and reviewed expeditiously, that's where we'll be and completing in late, late winter, early spring, 21. And so, and lastly but not least, we are going to be presenting to the Alley Square residents next Monday. So August 12th. From the outreach standpoint, we met with Allard's business side today. We're gonna go meet with their residents next week and we've agreed to throughout the project meet with them monthly. They have a lot of organized activities and probably me just go in there and just chat, answer any questions they may have. Date. And we've been meeting with Allard fairly regularly for six months. So that's where we are. So if you have any questions, happy to answer them. I have a question about cost generally. So the Allard's, not the Allard Square, but the addendum with a new road. How do you feel about the original cost estimates and are we gonna be well within those or are we looking to go over? What is general thoughts on that? Yeah, so generally, while we won't know all the costs until we're done with the project, I would expect them to be higher because the stormwater is, we're now in, we're in a much more expensive option for stormwater infrastructure. So, you know, over the next month or so, we'll be getting new pricing and once we do have pricing, we'll come to you with options. Million over, two million, are we five million dollars over? No. Just million-ish. I'm not sure. I don't want to put a number on it. 150,000 more, right? I'm not sure. I don't want to put a number on it, but we'll be working in order to contain that. In terms of order of magnitude, it's not two to five million. Definitely not. Thanks. I have a question. Is there a problem with Allard Square? Are they in court? Has there been some sort of a court case concerning that? So, that's not something that I would have information on, but I know that there has been discussions with planning and zoning, and I'm not sure what the status is of that. The outcome of that doesn't bear in our project and it doesn't appear to have bearing any ill will on their behalf in our discussions with them. They couldn't get a CEO is what I understood until something was resolved. Maybe somebody else in the room has information on that later. Well, did you want to share that an hour later? Your choice. That's the sort of just discussing it now. Do you mind? Sure. Paul Conner, director of planning and zoning, just briefly that the Allard Square project did not, they received temporary CEO last fall and they came to apply for their permanent CEO certificate of occupancy, demonstrating full compliance with the regulations. The administrative officer determined that they were not fully in compliance due to operability of doorways. That decision of the administrative officer was appealed to the DRB, the DRB upheld the administrative officer's decision and the Cathedral Square elected to appeal back to the environmental court. The environmental court has put it at all parties' requests on hold for a little bit to see as the parties consider options and whether it can be resolved outside of the court. Or the parties talking? The parties are talking, yes. And we'll brief counsel it at an appropriate time and executive session on it. All right. I'm just concerned about other CEOs as other buildings come online, like the CHT building, right? Couldn't see a similar issue unless it gets figured out here? The exact issue here would not apply to any other building that has been approved in the form-based code because all the other ones are not in the T5 district. The door operability standards are different in T5 versus the other buildings. Yeah. I have a question with regard to communication plans that are in place between our team and the school's team. Those protocols have been fleshed out and maybe know what they are? Sure. So, I mean, we're certainly available to talk to the school district and as we get closer to construction, we will be meeting with them. Or if there's any requests through permitting departments for changes to any of the site plan elements. But once a pre-construction and during construction, there'll be regular monthly meetings. Similar to Market Street. And so they would have a standing invitation to... Weekly. I'm sorry, weekly. That's what I was going to follow up. Thank you. So there'll be weekly meetings and of course we would be available to talk to them at other times too. The nature of our phasing plan includes vertical separation and segregation of uses and properties. So unlike Market Street where we all have to be in the same space, if you're going to the school, you're going to be in a fenced off driveway into the school. You're coming in and out of Allard the same. If you're an employee working on the 180 project, the same. So we're not going to be in each other's way as much as we have been in the past. That certainly doesn't negate the need to keep communicating, but the way that Engelberth has divided the phasing plan really kind of respects all the separate users from an access and a safety standpoint. And how about if someone has a question about what the contractor is doing? Who does someone call? So that would be me during the construction project. They can reach me at the Department of Public Works Office. Is there any interest in contacting the contractor, kind of the foreman? I don't know if there's a better do. No, the foreman is in charge of the people building the project. We're in charge of them. Generally those types of issues that the public has with a contractor aren't about means and methods. They're not about how they're laying the pipe or throwing up the sheetrock. It's some other issue that's probably usually most appropriately handled at this. Or where someone has put something down, for instance, is an issue. They call you, they wouldn't. Yeah, yeah. But again, in this project, we're only gonna be putting stuff down inside of our fence. So, hopefully. And trucks coming back and forth during times of day, those kinds of issues go to you? Yep, yep. And do you report out to specific people? So they have a superintendent who's on site every hour of the project. They have a variety of assistant superintendents, engineers and safety officers who also come and go. But those people all report up to a project manager who probably at any given time is two or three of these projects active throughout the Northeast. So that project manager is usually on site for a day a week. Depending upon what the concern is, that's who I reach out to. If it's something, if I'm calling the home office of our contractor, then something's really gone wrong. That type of stuff doesn't happen often. And we'll also have weekly look-aheads. So if there's things coming up that the public should be aware of, we can publicize those types of things. In the same way we've been doing the Market Street. But this one will be probably a lot more boring because it's like installing vertical drain pipes within the building there. But will you be getting that also either to our superintendent of schools or to the principal of that school? Is there some kind of change? Same distribution list that we've been doing with Market Street. It goes to the superintendent and the principal. And then internally, they disseminate it to, I don't know how they disseminate it, but they have it every Friday from us. Okay, all right, Friday morning. It varies. Sometimes it gets to me by eight. Sometimes I'm busy from eight to 11 and I don't get to it, you know. But they get it directly from, they get it when I get it. I then post it to our Twitter page and distribute it internally. But to do that, this stupid stuff, it's in a word format. I have to edit it into a PDF and then get it into a JPEG. Then I can get it to Twitter. You know, so just logistically, it takes a bit of time occasionally. You're doing that work? Yes. I haven't seen these. Are they pretty clearly worded? Yes. And they're usually posted on Facebook. So it's kind of broken down by there's like three projects. There's the east end of the project, the middle and the west end. And we tell folks within each area what's occurring over the following week and issue advisories as needed within that. For example, we're doing vibratory rolling. It's going to be kind of intrusive on your day-to-day operations of your business. So we actually worked with Two Market Street. While we were in front of their house and we were able to, in front of their business, they actually had some of their staff work from home for a day or two. So they weren't sitting in front of a shaking computer. If you ever had that pleasure, you know what that does to you. So, I mean, small example of how we proactively kind of went and knocked on the business's doors to say, hey, it's about to get pretty rough in here. What can we do to make it better for you? Any other questions? Let's just hope. All right. We thank you. We know it's a big, big job. And there are a lot of people to keep informed and keep happy. So just thank you for doing your best job at doing that. All right. Thanks. Okay. So we're down to item number nine, briefing for council on potential future action that may be needed related to transportation improvements on Kimball Avenue and the status of an irrevocable offer of dedication for a road within Technology Park. And this is Paul. And Justin. All right. Paul Conner, Director of Planning and Zoning, Justin Rabu, Public Works Director. We're here really just to give you a little preview of a request that you're going to get likely at your next meeting from Technology Park partners. John, I don't know what this here is as well. Just to listen in and answer any questions that you might have. As you may know, there are a couple of projects moving forward in Technology Park currently in front of the DRB. The most, the largest one is a large distributing facility. It is currently under review. They went through their sketch plan and they're now, they submitted their application for preliminary and final plots of the bulk of the application. Their traffic study indicates that the traffic generated by these facilities will reach the point where an intersection improvement is needed at the intersection of Kimball Avenue, Gregory Drive, and the eastern portion of the Horseshoe of Community Drive. Their traffic study, and I'm just speaking in generalities in numbers right now, but their traffic study suggests that this building will represent about 15% of the new capacity generated by this interchange. So when you go from a unsignalized to a signalized or to a roundabout or whatever the solution ultimately winds up being you build new capacity for vehicles to get through, the estimate right now is about 15% of the new capacity will be used up by this new building. Does that make sense so far? You'll be receiving two requests at an upcoming meeting. The main one relates to the use of impact fees. So the city currently collects impact fees on virtually all expansions and new development on a variety of areas. The one we're speaking about this evening is the road impact fee. So for each new development that takes place, the city collects approximately $1,000 per evening hour vehicle trip. We call them trip ends. And that is then used to construct a series of pre-identified projects on the city's impact fee list. The way that the whole thing is structured without getting into too much detail is that when the impact fee ordinance was put together, the city identified five, six, seven, six projects that were deemed valuable and useful for transportation throughout the city. So city center road network, then Siklin Road intersection, Williston Road, Tilly Drive connector to community drive and a couple of other ones. The cost of that was these reach given a cost estimate. And then for each of them, a analysis was done as to what proportion of the need of that project can be attributed to new development versus what proportion of the need of that project is either catching up from being an underperforming intersection today or that it might be passed through traffic that has nothing to do with proposed development. The reason that that's important is that the impact fees by state law can only be charged to a developer based on what the new demand generated by development. So, yeah. Parsing of numbers. It is a tough parsing of numbers and there's a lot of deep math that goes into all this. So that backwards math gets you back to the number Paul said, which is $1,000 for every new peak hour trip generated by a project. With an estimated total number of residents or number of trip ends through a certain year, basically. All that to say that the request that you're gonna receive is a request to add this improvement of Community Drive East and Kimmel Avenue to the impact fee ordinance in some manner in order to give the applicant, the developer credit for some portion of its payment. So they're responsible for 15% of the newly generated capacity. They'd be interested in the city participating in some portion above that through credits to the impact fee ordinance. So we can currently issue credits for anything that's on the list. So when Trader Joe's and, Trader Joe's and Pier One came in, there were some improvements made to that intersection pedestrian signal, the culvert and a lengthening of the left turn lane. That's an identified project. So the applicant built it and the city credited them that amount from the impact fees. That's the way that works. In order to credit a project, it must be in the impact fee ordinance. It must be listed in there. So you're gonna have a few different options in front of you when the request comes. One would be to choose not to add it to the list and so not to participate. One would be to add it to the list entirely, which would bring more projects in the list and therefore increase everybody's payment requirement because there's now one more project in the list and so therefore more dollars per trip end or to swap it out for another project on. And we'll go into more detail in that when it gets to it but we wanted to sort of preview the subject to you. What else do we want to cover here? Not to steal Mr. Illak's thunder but one of the projects is the Tilly Drive connector. If the Tilly Drive connector, if that gate were open, so to speak, it would most certainly add the need or create the need for improved traffic control at the intersection we're talking about. Earlier you're talking about or at this one community east Kimball and Gregory, the subject intersection of the proposed project in front of the DRV. By the Tilly connector, is that from the medical buildings to the technology park? Yeah, it's where the bike. Basically a road parallel to that. So there could be, again, there's a lot of state statute and a lot of legal aspects of impact fees in Vermont. There could be the possible nexus made that this is kind of an extension of the Tilly connector, therefore already covered within our impact fee ordinance. So as Paul's listing out options and we're not value judging any options at this point, but that's just another possible other option that might be on the plate for consideration. And then lastly, the improvements to this intersection are contemplated in the comprehensive plan. It's a subset of all the projects on the comprehensive plan and in the capital improvement plan that then is on the impact fee list. So you'll have several options in front of you. It's really about where, how do we make the most effective use of the limited total dollars for construction is really what this comes down to. The other one just very briefly that you'll be seeing is a request to remove a, to eliminate a or vocal offer of dedication from a small dead end road that was previously approved in technology park. It was only to serve technology parks. That one's going to be pretty straightforward. It's no longer needed for the development proposal that they have. And doesn't the proposed project use that same piece of land? Correct, it uses the two parts of the project. So kind of renders this future offer kind of meaningless. I'm just curious. Is the proposed building west or east of the Whales Tales or dead on center or? Essentially, and John, feel free to correct me, but it is abutting the interstate to the Williston side of the Whales Tales. So closer to Moneybrook. Like the back left quadrant of the horseshoe. Yes, closer to Moneybrook, but the Moneybrook takes a pretty dramatic eastern swing right at this spot. So in terms of distance from 800 feet, 1,000 feet to the nearest element, it's pretty far from Moneybrook because it goes. 800 to 1,000 feet. That's a very wild guess, but. It certainly doesn't abut it. Not significantly. With any degree of proximity. So it's the first property, but it's pretty substantial wetland complex in there that the applicants proposing to not. And how far from the interstate, would you say? To the back of the parking. There's a no build highway zone of 150 feet from the edge of the right away to when any development can occur. So no development is within that because the LDRs don't allow that. North of that, it would be parking lot, then north of that is building. I'd say parking lot is sort of a loading area and then the building. Justin, how is that? So would the Whales-Tale trail be obliterated by this development, or would it have to be rerouted to be in front of it? The, what was reviewed at sketch level was to have the trail essentially circumnavigate. So it would continue to exist from the Whales-Tales east towards Moneybrook and then around. So we'd go on the back side of it. As an informal trail. Okay, great, as an informal trail. Our intention would be to maintain the existing path that goes around Technology Park that we allow the public to use whenever. There are certain pieces of that that based on this development have to get slightly relocated. We'll be creating some berms and landscaping elements to help shield the building and the path would sort of wind its way through and around that. So there'll be small bits and pieces of that path that will get relocated, but it will exist again. And the connector, the Tilly Drive connector, would that be in the current position where the Lou Brzee bridge is? It would be wherever environmental review allowed it to be. There's a wetland. There's a wetland. Yes. Do you know what class they are? Class two. Class two. Yeah. I would have stayed out there about three years ago. They basically said to us, we're not gonna permit a road in anticipation of meeting a development and congestion need when that need arises, come back and talk to us and then we'll be willing to discuss environmental impacts, but not until then. Are we thinking about a roundabout at Gregory and Kimmel? We are looking at all the different options in that area, signalized. It's time for a roundabout in South Burlington, a real one. I beg you. Yes. It is under consideration. Do you have enough room to do that? That's one of the items being considered. That's one of the significant parts of this. Get on my knees, please. And this is in the transit overlay district, is that right? It is, yeah. Yeah. Listen, how does a potential project at that intersection dovetail with the proposal to replace the bridge? So it's far enough away from our municipal border with Wilson, which is where the muddy culvert failed. And even if, and we have looked at roundabout designs, which might require a shift in the alignment of the center line of the road as it heads towards Williston, all of that can occur well outside of the footprint of the bridge replacement project. So there's any of that road realignment, there'd be some period of 50 to 150 feet until the bridge work begins, the culvert work. Roseanne, please. So Roseanne Gretzler, southbound resident, that intersection right now is very congested. The Kimbell. The whole stop. But as more traffic, if this goes through, goes through there from the medical offices that will put more traffic on Kimbell with the O'Brien farm coming off of that too, that intersection's gonna be really boxed up, but the intersection on Williston is gonna be a nightmare because people are gonna keep going on Gregory. You know, if they're coming off Community Drive, they cross over Kimbell, they'll go Gregory and then they'll get to Williston Road. And if you know where that is, it's right where the, it goes down the hill and it's a bottleneck, it's dangerous because Pete's RVs are up there and as you're coming down, you've got stop signs on either side. But if you considered a lot more traffic coming out there, it already jams up now. So it'd be great to have another roundabout there, but you're definitely gonna have to think about signaling or something, or you're gonna have a nightmare in your hand on two intersections, given all of the traffic and the new houses and the new cars and the additional cars. That's potential. I would encourage and it's probably employees or people dropping off packages to turn right on Kimbell and go down to Brown Ale because the signaling is much better. Yeah, you can't force people to go. No, but people are smart too, people. As you're heading east on two, there's, I mean, this is a states road, so let them opine, but there's not enough site distance to put a signal in. If you envision coming down that hill in the winter and all of a sudden you have a yellow than a red light, that's the reason there's not a signal there. It would not be safe at Gregory. And then just to update my number from before, just eyeballing it at its nearest point, about 300 feet from the edge of the project to Moneybrook and then it goes up to about 11 or 1200 feet because of the shape of Moneybrook, distance away from the brook. Jose, your points there are well taken. Those intersections on that downhill are never fun to go, to come out of. Yeah, but you gotta think about what you do and then the river vacations down the road, so it may be a road. Once in a while, I turn with the direction of traffic and then find a place to turn around. Yes. All right. More detail to come, this is kind of a primer. These are the wonky issues we deal with here. Thank you, guys. Using a word. All right, thank you. All right, our next agenda item is number 10. Update on community identity and engagement including consensus app pilot project. And here we have Coralie Holm with us. Hello everybody. I'd like to see a lot of the city staff tonight. So disconnecting, so bear with us. Thank you. So I'm Coralie Holm, director of community engagement and innovation for the city. And I think the first thing I'm talking about is the community engagement branding component, right? So as soon as that comes up. So to get started, you remember that we went through a branding exercise prior to me getting here actually for the city. And so we've been implementing the components of that. So I'd like to address that first. Some of those components have been within the branding, the new logo for the city, which is different than the municipal branding that we have. And so that's the orange and blue and green branding that we have that you see on the front of the magazine and that we can use throughout the city. You also see it in the banners on Dorset Street and across the bridge. So that city branding, we've been incorporating throughout the city. I don't know if any of you have driven down Shelburne road and seen the banners that have been placed there and what they say, but part of that branding was to identify or to capture the identity of some of the areas of the city. So at the time there were four districts that were identified. So we have city center, which you see some of the banners and we know what that area is. There's also the Lakeshore district, which is down the Shelburne road corridor. So those banners are new and that's a start. It's starting to identify that area. We have the Ridgeline district, which will be in the Southeast quadrant. And then we have the Gateway district, which will be done Williston Road. So that was how the city was divided up. So we're starting to do some branding and some, I'd like to do some storytelling about each of those districts and the communities, the smaller communities, the developments that make up those districts. So that's the next phase of the branding and helping to pull identity together throughout the city. So I just wanted to give that oversight. I know that there's been some talk lately about our branding in the news. And so some of the pieces of the branding that we're using, the name of the magazine, the shortened name that we're using for Sobu Night Out and whatnot is not in any way a replacement of the name of the city, but just a fun hip way. And we get a lot of positive feedback actually both at the park at the event, folks coming in. And so I just wanted to make sure that that was clear, that that's a component of what we're using. It is in no way a reflection of trying to change the name or not follow the branding package. So I don't know if any of you guys have questions about that piece. I've seen some chatter. Nobody renamed the city, right? There was some work done and some catchphrase names were made to grab attention and have some fun. I urge anybody in the city to call the city whatever name they please. You want to say South Burlington? It's a lot of syllables sometimes. It's too many syllables for me, but sometimes it's the right number. So Sobu comes in handy. It's nothing really worth arguing about. But if you want to argue, go ahead and argue because it's a free country. But yeah, it's really interesting watching. But you know what? Hey, people are talking about it. People, that's exactly what the whole branding thing was about, right? Right, right. So I love it that folks are talking about it. I agree that it's not worth getting up in arms over this thing, but on the last point you just made there, the branding effort, there was never in that big presentation, Sobu. That was just a hashtag. Correct, correct. And it's grown beyond what was, okay, so. Correct, correct. So think about even with our website. So when I had the option to not be sburl.com and to be something different than that, we went with SouthBurlingtonVT.gov. But still, when you put that on something, you have to have a shortened version. So even with the website, we did SBVT.gov. So that was short. So Sobu was just kind of fun, playful way for folks to be like, oh, Sobu. And I see that it's caught on because the media is using it. Folks are using the hashtag. People are talking about it in that way. So there's some affinity. And so, you know. As much as there's affinity, there's also some resistance so we can acknowledge that. So, you know, I'm very careful to use all sorts of, you know, the full name, you know, the SBVT. So it's just part of, I think, what our identity is. And this may be something that we use for a while. And, you know, it may be something different as we move down the road, just depending on the. It's a handle. It's a handle. So I just wanted to address that. We have one coming from the audience here. I just appreciate the fact that you didn't include DR. Otherwise we would have been sober. I agree. Very good. So I just wanted to talk about the package in that fashion. And then let me see why you guys are not seeing my screen. Is it coming over? It's trying to. Sorry, hold on. You can see all sorts of things on my. Can I ask you this? I thought it was interesting that Burlington is making use of a dollar collected per hotel stay or hotel night. I'm not sure in order to do their rebranding. Is that a fund that is available to any community? That is. What is the fund? I missed that. I read it in, was it Seven Days? Well, they collect their own money, right? Avon in South Burlington, Colchester Hotels. This is the hotel. That's a whole different thing. That's not a tax. It's a voluntary. It's voluntary, it's voluntary, yeah. And it's used for marketing the Greater Burlington Area by the Convention Visitors Bureau, which is an armament-related regional chamber of commerce. Do we have access to that fund? We don't. Now we as a city, but our properties too. The hotels that participate help drive the use of those funds. It has nobody else can dictate that. So, OK, so moving on in community engagement. So Consensus, which I hope all of you have on your phone, I wanted to give you guys an update on where we are with that. And we have over 700 users who are now registered on the app. We had quite a few folks, about 200 attempt verification of that 700. And either abandoned it, or some got verified, some abandoned it. And so as you remember, it was to take the picture of your license. So I've worked with the team. And they have, and remember, this is a pilot. We're trying this out to see what's happening. And we would like to know that the folks who are answering the questions are from South Burlington. So what they've done, instead of having a picture of your ID, is that now it will use the locator service, which is built into your phone, that you might get when you open some other app, like Yelp or something, says, I want to know your location. Is it OK to know your location so we can serve you up appropriate information? So that's what will be used in the next release that's coming out. So you won't be asked for your identification. And the step prior to that, we had moved it back into the process anyway. So it wasn't forefront that you needed to take a picture. We moved it back. So they've been testing different things. This is the most recent version that will be out, I think, later this week. So you still have to say yes to be verified. If you don't say yes, you can still get in and still answer questions. Questions can be tailored based on if you're a verified user or not. I will tell you that the questions that I'm putting out, I'm not saying that you have to be a verified user. But again, this is a test. So there are a couple on here that were asked in the past that you needed to be a verified user. So David, thank you for sending me the question that you wanted asked. And here's my attempt. I don't remember what it was. Well, here's the dashboard that I get to see. It's fairly simple because they're also building this as we go along. And so the question that you posed or that I've posed based on what you had asked was the one about the indoor recreation facility. I worked with Holly to come up with what are the five or six things that came out of the previous work over the years as to what would folks might want to see. And these were the top things. And so I just posted it today. It's got 12 days. And you can see folks are starting to answer the question. I would say barely starting. Barely started. Barely started. I just posted it this afternoon. The question you just posted this afternoon. Correct. Oh, so it'll be around. So and it'll be up for 12 more days. So as you can see some of these questions, you've seen this one before about roads plowed in a timely manner. You can see during the summer months how often do you use the parks. And so it looks like they're being well used, at least from those that answered. Again, this is a small sample. Do we need another dog park? You can see the answer there. Here's the one on paving. So what's interesting is, if we have an additional question, which would come in a later release, it's not that sophisticated yet. But if someone were to say yes, I would be willing, $250,000, I'd be willing to pay more, we could ask a subsequent question that says, would you be willing to pay more on the tax rate? Or do you think it should come from somewhere else? You could get more detailed. We're not at that point with the app yet. We're just sort of at the basic level. So I think you've seen this one before. Reconstruction of Market Street. Has this been an inconvenience to you? It's kind of split. When registering to vote, should an applicant be required to provide identification? Interesting. Some say no. Which of the following statements best describes your attitude about development in South Burlington? You can see the answers there. City owned open space. On that last question, did you see the concerns posted that on a mobile device, the app was cutting off a truncate? Yes, Tom, thanks for bringing that up. So yes, folks brought that to my attention. We fixed it. And so as you see things, since this is a pilot, see things, pass them along. Because then I can have them fix that. And so they did. They fixed it. So now it wraps. What was happening is existing controls on DeVut, and then it would stop. You couldn't read the rest of the screen. So that's happening. Again, a city owned open space. Where do you live in South Burlington? Just to give you an idea of who's answering. How much noise related to operations that the airport affect you? Speeding in your neighborhood a problem. And again, the first question we asked, have you ever ridden your bike to work? So these are all good questions. I would love to hear from the council if there are questions that you would like for us to put out there. This is a fantastic listening tool for you. And I've also posed to a couple of the committees. I think I spoke to Bikeped. I'm speaking to natural resources. They would like to ask questions as well. So I would love to have those questions just to start to get some feedback. And again, remember, this is 700 people that maybe not all 700 are looking at it. They have signed up. They answered a few questions, didn't look again. But if you A, have questions, and B, would like to see sort of the response to something, this is a good tool. Now as we move forward on a project, this would be one tool in addition to the surveys that we typically would put out. Information on the website, putting stuff out to the other paper, public forums, all of that. But this would be maybe we would be capturing folks that we weren't capturing in some other place. And I know a lot of us watch Facebook to see what the chatter is or front porch forum. But here's a way for it to actually go somewhere versus just the chatter out there because who knows who's listening or reading. Are you actually getting the information into the administration or to city council just by sounding off on Facebook? And so with this, if there's a question, they can provide their input directly. I have two pieces of feedback just on the technology. The first one is, I didn't know there was a new question. And I thought I had signed up to get updates. Good question. OK. So let me share with you. I've asked the question about notifications because I said, when does the little number one show up? So they've been working on it. And there were some issues with a bug with the Android version. And I know this affects everybody, unfortunately. But with the Android bug, it was causing androids to install and crash. And sometimes you wouldn't get questions on the Android version. And there was something going on with Google and the blockchain. They've resolved that. So they were then able, and they've been working on notifications. They were then able to get the notifications working. So there's a new version that's coming out mid to the end of this week. And then you will be getting notifications. And again, it'll be that little number one that shows up. So I know there's a new question, but the new version isn't out there yet. Is it possible to, when you release a new question and you send out, you send out front porch four a lot, right? Is there a link that you can click that would then invoke the app on the phone at that time? So the only way that I can link, I can't link to the app. All I have is a link to the sb.consensus.ai or to our website. And I could say, new questions out today. Go to your app. Sometimes those websites, when the detectives coming from mobile devices will say, would you like to switch over to the app? Yeah. So there isn't a URL. If I'm posting on front porch forum, there isn't a URL for the app that I can put in there. But maybe there's a web page on the city page that would then invoke the app when they click and go to that page. But that requires some help. But that's a good question for the future. Wednesday or Thursday, we're still working on time. Ask them that question and see if they can. Because several times, if you go to some websites, it'll say, do you want to switch to the app instead of using the website? Agreed. Amanda, follow up from the audience. Along the same lines of being notified when a new question comes out. So when I originally signed up, I don't know what I clicked on. My guess is I clicked on no notifications. But there's no setting where you go in and change your mind. So I would now. Because otherwise, you have to keep looking at it. Is there a new one? Is there a new one? Then you get tired of looking. So how can somebody who didn't sign up for notifications now get them? So let me ask that question. But my understanding is that notifications will now be turned on for everybody with this new version. So if you're not getting it by the end of the week, you may want to delete the app and re-download. So that would be my best suggestion as to how to do that. There is no settings feature yet. Yeah, there is one yet. So the second question I had is, when I was answering the first questions, I believe they went through. But then when I went back to answer the second set of questions, some of the previous questions I had answered showed as pending. Gotcha. It doesn't show that now. It takes some time. It still shows as pending. It went through. And then when I went back on with the second set of questions, it showed as pending. And as long as you wait and you try to confirm or whatever. It didn't do it. I'll ask that question what the reasoning is. I know when you first answer a question, sometimes it says pending because it has to hit the blockchain. And so sometimes there's a gap there. And they have told us that. That's something that will tighten up down the road. But right now, that's sort of the way that it works. And I got pending, but then it resolved. But then it gave you pending again when you went back on. That's right. After it having resolved. The other thing is sometimes we have kind of a gut reaction and then they're like, oh, maybe it's not that one. Maybe it's more in this category. And you can't change your answer. I have the ability to have that setting. But I haven't turned that on. So and as they build out more, those are things that if we think that's useful, that's good information for them to have for the next phase. I think it's useful. Yeah. So you can only vote once. But if you change your mind and the time frame isn't up, we'd like that as an option. I mean, test takers are supposed to go with their gut. So sometimes second guessing isn't the best. Blockchain's supposed to allow that type of. Correct. Correct. Yeah. Yeah, Rosie. I don't belong to this, but I took them all. And they're all pending. I thought pending meant they were waiting for the questions to terminate. So none of mine have taken, because there's pending on every single one. So I interpreted that it was still the results weren't yet completed from everybody. But if that's not what it means then. I'm going to ask the question when we see them this week. And I would say, perhaps delete the app and download it again on Friday or this weekend and go through an answer and see if that works this time. Do you have an Android? I have an iPhone. You have an iPhone. OK, that's. Yeah, but I know something has closed because I'm back from May, so I can't. Right. I mean, I'll do it, but I mean, so all those that have been lost closed, yeah. Would you like me to take a screenshot and send it to you so you can send it to the consensus people and have them see what it looks like? I'd like to, but I cannot. Some are pending, some are. I mean, I don't know what it will do for them. Yeah, I mean, I'll give them the information. But if you want me to share, I can definitely do that. Yeah, this is a pilot program. This is all to help them work the bugs out. So anything like that, get it to us. They're pretty responsive. They're pretty responsive. They're working on it on a daily basis. They have a pretty big team working on it. And so as much feedback as we can give them is going to be useful for whatever the next phase is, wherever they get to. So. I'm appreciative that their logo, which I thought was a spider web, which is cool, it's actually a box in a box. Yeah. Did you want us to get to the questions, potential questions? How would you like to funnel those questions to me? Do you, can you guys send me an email with the questions that you have? And I will put them in a fashion. What has worked best, obviously, is having a fairly brief question. And then yes, no, or brief answers that get to something. And we're trying to be as neutral, obviously, as possible in the way that we ask the question. So. Dave's question is very leading. His question is very leading. About the rec center. If you read it again, it's really saying, we've long wanted a rec center. And what are the following features do you want? So I'm fine with it, just you've got to be recognized that a critical discount the result. Where's the pool? Certainly, well. There's the pool, is my question. It's defective, it's defective. I would like to know if the people find that we do enough community celebrations in summer. I'd like to think about that. Is Sobu night out enough? Right, right. Or is summertime enough? We know the answer to that one. You could ask, is there enough summertime? But I've got a feeling I know what to get from the answer. Do you have a consensus banner for the Sobu night? We do not. Because you could say, please, while you're coming in, just go load this app right in, as you have to. We asked, but that hasn't transpired yet. You could make that a condition of entry. There you go. You have to download the app as you walk in. Last question I had just going back to the very beginning with regard to the quadrants. You said you were going to be unrolling or rolling out. What kind of things are going to be rolling out with regard to the different areas in the city? So some of the thoughts that I have are around the neighborhoods that are in each of the districts. So I understand, and I don't know this fully, so I'll be looking for some insight, that some of the neighborhoods have block parties and they have a certain flavor to the development or the neighborhood that's there. And so I would love for us to be able to showcase that sort of each of the threads in the fabric of our community. And so if the Lakeshore district has a certain flavor, we'd like to be able to describe that. And here are the neighborhoods that are in that area. And here's what goes on in that area. So really starting to talk on the website. I'm actually thinking of talking about the districts for the first time in the magazine, which is due out in September. So we'll introduce it there and then start to share. We can share it on social media on the website. Maybe it's in the magazine, maybe it's in stories. I think about when we look at the Economic Development Committee and whatnot and we're trying to bring folks to South Burlington, some of that information is useful as well. How are you gonna know what flavor to give it in the magazine? I think I need to ask the questions of folks. So I think some of our staff has that information. Some of our committee members have that information. You folks are a great resource. So I think asking that and also asking the community. It's a great question to put out in a survey on the website or we could use the app. So there are a variety of ways for us to listen and get that information. So this is initiating that information gathering. I see, okay. Very good. Other things? Okay, so moving on to digital records and laser fish. Very good, so we're moving on to item number 11. Okay, so clerk base was the place where we were keeping our meetings and agendas for the most part. So we have switched over to a company called laser fish. Laser fish has a repository for documents. It also has business intelligence and business automation tools, including forms, which I'll talk about in a minute. So it's bigger than just clerk base was providing us a place to store our meetings and agendas. This is bigger than that and we're gonna utilize it throughout the city, not just for this function. But to start with, if you go to the same place you normally go to, so we wanna look at the agenda for city council. You come to the page and there you all are. Okay, so agendas in minutes. We made a couple of improvements. So from a user standpoint, it became clear to me that sometimes you have to click too far to find something. So you had to get to clerk base so then you had to find the agenda. There are some best practices out there and here's one of them that I found and I think is much better. So we have a little bit more information to add on here. But boom, you can look up immediately the current agenda, listen to it, watch it, see the minutes. When you click on, say tonight's agenda, it will take you directly to the agenda whereas previously in clerk base, you had to go to clerk base and search for it. So we have improved that process just in that functionality. Was that using laser fiche? That's using laser fiche. So when you go there, you're in laser fiche, you don't know that. But, and it doesn't say laser fiche, but that's where you are. And everything can be interlinked so you can still click on things and get to the specific place in the agenda that you want to get to. If you wanna go back and search, you can do so. Here you are in laser fiche, it says laser fiche. I'm working on getting rid of where it says laser fiche and it'll just say city of South Burlington so you still won't know that you're on laser fiche except for the powered by laser fiche at the bottom which I can also remove. Just have not done that yet. So again, here's a repository. We started actually with planning and zoning and the documents, the development review documents that were in there. And then we moved on to meetings and agendas but I'm gonna just talk about meetings and agendas first. So say you come here and you wanna see city meetings. We put these sort of hot links on here. And you can come in, you can see any of our committees and they are all organized in the same fashion. So if we go to bike pad, you will see that you have agendas, oh, there's a typo, draft minutes and committee minutes. So we have been working with the staff liaisons to make sure that we're all do have some consistency in how we're putting information out. And so we have to have the draft minutes because we're required to have those out within five days. So you'll see those up here separately. But basically you can go into any of these. They're set up the same way, set up by date and then when the meetings are and then you click on it, it's a PDF. You can download it, you can search it. You can also, from the front page, you could also search in here if you were looking for a certain address or something like that, I think, because I wanted to find one. I think I looked up 14 birchwood court. This isn't in an agenda or whatnot but I typed that in and it gave me, here were two supplemental pieces on that particular address. So... Does it index in the documents or just the titles of the... So first it goes here into the titles. You can, then when you get here, you could search, there's an advanced search so you could do that. And then one of the keys is folks aren't used to knowing that if you hit control F to search in a document, it'll highlight every time it says, you know, Smith or whatever word you have. So that's some training that we have to share with folks as they learn the new system. So the meetings agendas, that is all live right now. So every committee page on the website, outside, you folks have this. The remaining committee member or committees have opted at the moment not to have that level of detail. So if you're in bike pad, you don't have that nice grid that we just showed you. They have here to say, to access all city meeting documents, click here and everything for the committee is here. The reason for that is there's a timing issue of when's the most current meeting, when was the last meeting. Liaisons weren't quite at the place of do we feel like we have to keep up that page because it is a manual process for us to keep up the city council page. So they just sort of agreed that when you click here, you're gonna go to laser fish and it was easy enough for folks to find it. It does take them directly obviously to their committee. So you can go directly to agendas or minutes right here and then you can go right into it. But it doesn't go to the specific meeting, the most recent agenda. Okay, and then when you're looking at the planning documents, all of the development review documents, I think we're at 99% of everything being in there now, all the supplemental materials and we now have permits that are being placed into laser fishing have been. So here's all the development review. We have some legal documents and then we have permits which pertain to these topics at the moment. This is where we started and I think temporary sign permit just so you can see how this works. So I guess we can pick any of these and the document pops up and you can see all of the information that's there. So now if someone wants to search, they don't have to come into planning and zoning to find the document, they can search from home. So that's great. The next step that we're gonna do is create forms which are gonna allow us to, for whichever permits we determine, they can actually apply online, it gets sent to the appropriate person, they can pay. So it's just like Amazon. Submit your information, digitally sign, submit your payment, it goes to the appropriate person, that person reviews it, says yes, says no, need this, need that. There's a whole automated process behind that system. So that's the next step that we're going to be taking into account and I just wanted to show you. So for example, we can create forms which we have limited capability of doing now. So if there's something going on in the city that you need to ask for service, here's an example of a form that could be submitted. This then, depending on what's clicked, what's chosen, it could submit it to Justin if it's a public works issue, it could submit it to Holly if it's a recreational parks issue, it could copy Kevin on every issue if he wants. So it can do, it's very robust. This is live? This is not live, this is the next stage that we're just starting to enter into. So what we'd like to do is take paper forms, make them digital and then have the Amazon experience of fill it out, pay for it, and have an automated process. I just have to say I love this form we've been talking about since I came on council and I'd love if our website didn't have call us today in the top left corner with a phone number but instead had this form because I just think this is more efficient and it's a way to capture what the issue is and share it with other people. So I'm glad to see this form. I hope you have airport like noise or something on there too. Yes, so we're open to, you know, I'm open to feedback as we move through this but again, we're just starting, this is a sample and but it's the next stage that we'll be moving through. So we'll still be digitizing records. So we have HR records, we have finance records, we have public works records. So that's gonna take us awhile to move through but at the same time, we need to move to a place where we can do this, the forms digitally. Oh. And I just gave a quick plug on the repository that Corley showed, quickly how much of a game changer that has been. So as Corley said, all of the DRV files, so every decision, all of the supplemental information is all in there now. We're working our way backwards from zoning permits and just a couple of examples of what we've seen in the first month that it's been live. As title searchers come in and they realize that they don't have to come in anymore, they can just do the work right from their office. We've had an attorney come in with a big smile in his face and said, I was doing research for a client. I just spent five hours at home working on this and I really just wanted to come in because I had one question I wanted to say, how much I like this? And so they're able to do it without having to spend all that time and then multiply that by all the residents. On top of that, our developer review board has asked for a little more context in terms of the history of properties with Rahab and Retire, we don't have it quite in a mental role of X and so we're able to much more quickly sort of see the history of things. And I'll give one specific example. There was a question that came up with the airport hotel that just went through the developer review process about a couple of landscape features. It was a couple of trees that were right where the hotel's gonna be and the board wanted to know whether the trees had been required at some past time or if they just chosen to plant them. In the past that would have been two drawers full of information that we could never have found. We happened to know that there were black locusts so we went to 1200 airport drive and then we typed in the keywords black locust and within about eight minutes we had the exact site plan that had been reviewed in 2003 showing that that had been required one at that time and so it answered the question like that. It's really impressive and where this can go into the future with connecting it to other files that have street addresses and then in the future time connecting again to a mapping component to it so that at some point in the future you'll be able to just click on your property and get all the various different information. That's where we're building this from the ground up to do and it's been part of our specs for laser fusion, part of what we went with them to build this capacity over time. The last thing I'll say is that he saw it by street address. The way that these digital systems work is that they're in there one time but then we can display them in whichever manners we want to. So if we want to show all the permits from a given year in one version and then you click on a different page and it's all the permits by address. You don't have to have them in twice. It's just the way the database is built. So it's really neat. So the deeds of these have been started here yet. They are on their way in. So land records are going in? Not land records. They're digitized in the files here. What we have are escrows. We're going to work towards air vocal office and dedication, things like that. But the clerk's office is responsible for anything that's recorded. So the title search you're talking about that a lawyer would do, they still have to come in and sit down in front of a screen here? For anything that they're looking for, the clerk's office outside of that for permit history, which is a lot of what they're doing. They can just do it straight from their home or their office. Everything that you saw there is freely available to everyone. And the cost of this versus clerk's share? Clerk's base? I will say that I think it's a comparable price on an annual basis. Of course, there was the startup fee for that. And of course we've had to pay to have stuff digitized. So that component, if you take that out, it's somewhat of a comparable fee. I think it's a little bit more, but it's obviously more robust than what we have with clerk's base. Clerk's share was in the warrants. This clerk's base right here was two charges. There's a monthly fee until we're completely moved over. And then the clerk's base will go away. Michael, I saw your hand in the back. Yes. Please state your name for the record. President on Swift Street. Whether we can search the DRB records by keyword. Yep, absolutely. Okay. If it gets easier, if you type in South Burlington, you'll find a lot of entries. Fewer for a silver. If I type in liquor license, I wouldn't find it. But yes, it's like any search function. More that you can narrow it by an address or a year or any of those things, but absolutely, it's all searchable. When it's the, almost everything to do with the DRB involves typewritten documents at some point. So all of that has been, I can't remember what OCR stands for, but it's- Object Carrier Regulatory. Yes, so you can search through the documents with other things like zoning permits. There's a lot of handwritten stuff in there. And so what we've done is we've put more of the information from the permit itself into the column on the side there where you see entry properties. We have more of them for the zoning permits because- But if I were to find a conservation piece, I would type in that word, I'll have to find- No. Anything that's in the DRB file, yes. Yep. Thank you. Thank you. Silly yes, putting 15 minutes down for this item, right? Anything else? All right. Fantastic. Fantastic. Terrific. Yeah. Good, good. Well, thank you very much. Good to hear that, right? Very good, thank you. All right, item number 12. We have a public hearing, excuse me, interim zoning application, IZ-19-02 of River's Edge Building Development to subdivide a 4.22 acre parcel into nine parcels, including a proposed public road and to construct 11 dwelling units as a planned unit development on the newly established parcels. That's at 1227 Dorset Street. And I believe that we have the applicant here, am I right? No? Yes. Yes, there you are. You were over there before. I was over there. All right, very good. So if you'd like to walk us through your project. Yeah, I don't have very much to say. My name's David Burke, Italy O'Leary Burke. Tom Shepard and Paul Brogna have the option on this parcel. In fact, they've pretty much had the option since 2005. So parcel F, or sometimes referred to as the clubhouse parcel, is 4.22 acres. May I just hesitate, I'll hold you for a minute. Do I have to open a public hearing? Do I have to swear in anybody? You have to open the public hearing. Yes, OK, I'm sorry. This is my first time doing this. Amanda should be on her way down. All right. I move to open the public hearing for this interim zoning application. I'll second. Get all those in favor. Aye. Aye. All right. And for the swearing, is there specific language? Amanda, do we have to swear in David here for the public hearing or for the testimony? Can you help us with what that is? That's specific language, yeah. I did not bring my instructions. I could do Perry Mason. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth? All right, I'll help you guys. All right, very good. So is any other interested person wanting to come before the council tonight? Two. OK, three. I think that all interested persons need to step forward in order to take the following oath. So if you would step forward, please. I don't remember interested persons having to take the oath if they were just to be parties. It would just be the applicant. Is that my understanding, Amanda? If they're asking a question, no. If they plan to provide testimony, yes. So something that will be involved with your decision make, then yes. Do you want to take the oath? Yes. All right, so repeat after me, please. I hereby swear that the evidence I give in the cause under consideration shall be the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So help me, God. Perry Mason wasn't too far away, was he? All right. Thank you. Now you may proceed. Sure, sure. So Dave Burke again, O'Leary Burke, Tom Shepherd, and Paul Brogna have the option on the parcel. It's 4.22 acres. It's currently vacant. It's referred to as parcel F and or the clubhouse parcel. It's always been part of the master plan for Vermont National. And it's sometimes referred to as a clubhouse parcel because it's across the street from the original farmhouse. And the access would be off of Folsom Hollow Drive. We have worked with planning and zoning staff since we submitted our sketch. And we've made some tweaks after meeting with staff. But the main thing is that we didn't know. We assumed that we were not part of interim zoning regardless of the map because of the master plan. The master plan allows for 11 units on this parcel. 11 units is what's going to be proposed. The master plan restricts it to four plexes or less. We are the submittal included two duplexes. Now it looks like we might just be 11 single units. But it's also subject to the court case. And the court case dictated that Vermont National is subject to the former regulations. So for those reasons, after hearing from staff that, well, hold on, you're not going to come in in July, submit for the city council first. And you'll come after that provided that you folks don't have an issue. So I submitted a package dated July 2 that states what I just said in a little bit more detail. But we're looking for exemption based on being part of an approved master plan and being subject to the former regulations. All right. Just so I'm clear, there is an amendment, if I understand, instead of two duplexes. So four dwelling units, you're now going to have 11 single dwelling units? That's what we met with staff and since meeting with staff. The last, it hasn't formally been submitted. It's been informally submitted for their review. But that's what's submitted at this time. Either way, the restriction on the master plan was nothing larger than a four plex. I also, as I understand it, this agreement with the city goes back to 2015. I don't know the exact date, but it goes back a ways. Yes. All right. I think that perhaps what would be proper, and again, this is my first time, so I am very much open to direction and guidance, is perhaps to have the other interested party come forward in order to hear his testimony. And please identify yourself for the public record. And then after we hear from both of you, we'll be able, I think, to have a more informed discussion. My name is Mark Perkel. I am the president of the Ironwood Community Association, which is the neighborhood that abuts, among other things, the 18th Fairway. On the other side of the 18th Fairway is this proposed project. Can you tell us where those homes are? Because I don't understand where those homes are. I'm trying to orient myself. Is that on Gulf Course Road? There's Gulf Course Road, and then off of Gulf Course Road is Fairway Drive. Yes. And that's all the units. Are those duplexes, Mr. Perkel? Yeah, they're all two units each. That neighborhood is called Ironwood. Just on Fairway? Yes. And there's 30, I believe there's 36 or 38 units, individual units. And one of the things is the fact that a portion of it certainly abuts the 18th Fairway, which you see from the road when you're going down Dorset Street. Now, one of the things that we are very concerned about is, one, the number of units. Because everyone in our neighborhood, we have a nice consistency of structures, of color. We've tried to work it through with all the other neighborhoods so that this particular proposal has 11 units out of small 11 single family units to which we have no idea what size, we have no idea whether there's going to be any kind of color restrictions or design restrictions, et cetera. And having lived, I've lived in South Burlington for six years. I've been in this area for a much longer time. And I've been appalled at what I've seen happen with Dorset Street. When I moved here 20 some odd years ago, Dorset Street was this quiet little street. And now, I know when I try to leave and get out, if it's in the morning, if it's 8 o'clock in the morning, there's some significant traffic going along there. And at one time, I actually lived in Englewood, Colorado for all of six months. And that place was Zoning Runamuck. And you would have this development here and this development here and this development here. And all of the character, I'm just really concerned, the character of this town is really starting to dissipate because when you go down that road and you look on either side, you're seeing backyards, backyards, backyards. And the same thing is going to happen. I think that this council is wise in terms of having set up that interim period of time to really look and say, what should be done? What can be done? And something else that's been bothering me all along is, yes, I understand that this was a project. The whole golf course was almost 20 years ago when it was conceived of. And there's so much that has happened in this town since that time. There's been so much development that, you know, when I hear, well, it was there before, we designed it. I think that if that had not been the case and they came forward today, there would be a much louder human cry that, what is this? We just keep developing, developing, developing. And I just, at this point, would like to see this project on hold until this town comes up with a good, solid plan for what we're going to do for the next X number of years. Because otherwise, it's really sad to see what's going on. That's all I have. Thank you, Mr. Perkins. All right. Before we take any comments from the audience, are there, perhaps, what I found, and I don't know if it's something that can be produced, but what I found missing, at least for my needs, is some kind of sketch plan, some kind of idea of. The plan was submitted in the July 2 package. I think they put it in the box, but not in our email. Oh, OK. I remember seeing it in the box. Hold on, let me get there. I'm not sure that that's all that pertinent. I think the question we're here for tonight is whether this parcel was subject to interim zoning. It just gives us a visual. It gives us a nice visual. It gives us sort of a short comment that we just heard, or also more DRB. That's right, I got that. Oh, we're not going to be getting into the design of the building. That's not part of our purview either. I just needed to have. And now I thank you for reminding me, Tom. I did see this earlier. I just trying to visualize where it is and how it sits. And if you're going out on Dorset Street, you've got the first entrance, since it's all of course. And that's about where the skarking lot in front has got the pool. It wraps around the pool. It's directly across from that. And then the far end of the parcel butts up not too far from the 18th green. Back a few hundred feet from the 18th green. So for instance, yeah, can you point out where the 18th green is? Pretty sure that's the 18th green. That's the 18th green. That's where the government is from representing these houses. And this is the clubhouse. This is Volsham Road, right along Dorset Street. OK, thank you. I think that's right. That looks right. It's really the only parcel that's left right there. And access will be from Volsham that will not be another curb cut on Dorset Street, of course. Part of the discussions with staff is whether or not a loop road would be better for public services. So we are entertaining that. Originally, the submission was a dead end. This project is not the one that depended upon the completion of the sidewalk on Golf Course Road. It's the other small development that's on Golf Course Road. Is that correct, or is this the one that triggered the sidewalk completion? I don't believe there's any ties on this piece to the sidewalk. The work is done. We were probably on the DRB. I think 2005, we came in and did a sketch plan. We came back in late 2000s and did a sketch plan. And for whatever reason, it just never moved forward. But either this one, there's another project which is on the north side of Golf Course Road adjacent to the Wheeler property that is also in the works. I don't know where it is. But one of those two depended upon the completion. The sidewalk work has been done. I just couldn't remember whether it was this project or the other one. I don't remember. Jeff Oleski came in on that for Homestead Design, did a sketch plan to the DRB, and we're actually looking at it now. So here I don't see 11 singles. I see two duplexes and seven singles. Correct. That was a submission. And as far as we came in and met with staff and to flash forward to DRB, and they basically said, would you consider this, this, and this? And while you're subject to the old regulations, we'd like you to consider the new regulations as much as possible. And they actually didn't dictate or didn't suggest any preference on the duplex versus single. But the changes that were a result of that meeting pushed the units further away from the 18th to give more backyard space and opened up more width that allowed us to change those duplexes to singles. So that was our choice. It was just a byproduct of the changes that we made. You have to take the berms down. Would you do this? Well, where those units are, yes. OK. It's a pretty significant hillock right there. Those are huge berms that I think probably went a little over, but there's rock inside of those berms. So I think there might have been the contractor getting rid of some spoil material. And the berms are probably larger because of that. And what is currently on, I guess that's what was lacking at not necessarily the sketch plan, but what is on this land currently besides berms? Well, there's a pump station. There's a water line that crosses it. There's power. But there's no, unless you're standing there, you're not going to see. There's sewer that cross sewer that comes from Fulsham farm to a pump station on this parcel. So there's sewer lines. There's a water line that served Fulsham farm. Some of that will need to be relocated as part of this project. So there's that, but there's no structures. There's nothing that you physically are going to see if you're on the bike path or driving by. Will these be footprint lots, or will each individual own the whole lot? The lower ones on the low side of the road would be single family homes. And the upper ones have changed. They would have been footprint lots for the units. And now they'll be considered carriage homes because we've split them. But that's on one common parcel, those four units. I'm new to this type of thing. Is it inappropriate to ask questions based on the previous testimony? Like do you plan to have any type of consistency in coloring or is that, are those fair questions to ask? I don't know. I can't even, based upon 2003, I'm not even sure if the front loading of the garage alignment with the porches is even irrelevant. 2003 does not require the eight foot setback. It looks like there will be variations. We're very early in the process. We thought we were going to sketch plan. And then it was like, well, hold on. You do need to come here. So some of that remains to be worked out. But it's funny how these projects go doing it for 34 years. There was a time when units, when you did a unit, a project like Ironwood or something, I'm not saying they're the same color. But a project like that, there was a time when staff and the boards wanted them all the same color. And luckily, we've gone away from that. So they want to be, they want to be, you don't want pink and brown. You want neutral colors, and you want them to be similar. But they'll be different. It's some oversight with requiring a certain shade with what do they call those things? The housing associations, no? Well, there'll be a whole more association document in addition to the DRB approval. So that'd be part of the DRB process. It's also an Act 250 amendment. So there's everything that comes with Act 250 also. Jesus, that's so horrible. All right, I did see a couple, since we're kind of thinking here, I saw Michael first, and then this person, and then Roseanne. I'd just like to remind the council that the planning commission at the August 1st we presented its PUD typology and it's working on a PUD project. This process is over four acres, so it was formed within the permit of the PUD regulations. And I believe would result in a more pleasing and planned unit development because of the specifics about how much open space there is, how much should be used for residences, and that kind of thing. It would be wise, I think, to allow the PUD rules to apply to this development. Question that comes to my mind as I hear you say that is I'm not sure that the judge's ruling allows that. Amanda, could you help the council parse through that? So the city of South Burlington and Highlands and Company LLC and Jamgolf LLC reached an agreement as a result of litigation on the overall master plan. The golf course was actually the first, I believe, master plan application submitted. If it wasn't the first, it was unusual because the golf course was largely developed by the time the master plan requirement came in. Master plan approval was granted in part and denied in part in, I believe, in either 2003 or 2005. And so then the city reached, those three parties reached an agreement and based on when either the master plan application had been submitted or when a preliminary application had been submitted, in this case there had not been a preliminary application. But so based on when the master plan application had been submitted, the overall consent order and decree and amended agreement amongst all the parties established when each development area within the golf course, excuse me, under what set of regulations each development area of the golf course would be considered under. And the careless of amendments? That's correct because of the dates when applications for certain things had been submitted. So in this case, the clubhouse development area is subject to the land development regulations that were adopted in May of 2003. This is part of that master plan? That's correct. That's what was in those were the regulations that were in effect when the master plan application was submitted. Yes. Please state your name for the record. Yes. I'm Jane Lawless. And I live on Fairway Drive, part of the Iron Boat home over at the Association. And I've lived here for three years and moved here from Charlottes. So I have kind of a Charlottes mentality, plus or minus. And as I drive north or south on Dorset Street and I look at Vermont National Country Clubs, which I think is a good community member, and a lot of people enjoy it. And the views are beautiful. If I think about 11 units in four acres, just stretched along Dorset Road, Dorset Street there, I think the whole ambiance of that whole parcel of the clubhouse and the farmhouse and everything will just change in character dramatically. And as just a resident, whether it's where I live now or whether I'm just driving down Dorset Street, I'm not looking forward to having those beautiful views obstructed by 11 homes in four acres, regardless of what's approved or what's legal or whatever. It just seems very dense and very overpopulated. And then in the context of that, thinking about Dorset Meadows and all the homes that might eventually be in very close proximity, it'll be a very overcrowded feeling. And we'll lose the beautiful nature that we enjoy here in South Carolina. Rosanne Greco, I believe, had raised her hand first, unless she wants to yield. Very good, yes. Hi, Linda Boardman. I'm also a resident of Ironwood. And I have a question about meetings being open, the information open to all of us. For instance, what happened at the staff meeting that was suggested that the design was changed? And are we able to have access to those minutes or just to give us some idea of the process as we follow this along? I'm not sure who the staff was and what meeting. Well, I think people have access to those minutes. I don't know that there are minutes for staff meetings, but you can certainly ask the question and be briefed on what was discussed and decided. And I don't know if Paul, you would like to. To speak generally, Paul Conner, director of planning and zoning, applicants for any application in front of the Development Review Board submit their application sometime between four and six weeks in advance of the DRB hearing it. Oftentimes, for weeks or months before that, applicants have been meeting with staff to identify how to best meet the city's regulations. And as part of our customer service to applicants as well as to any neighbors, as soon as we have application plans in part of us, everyone is welcome to view them, to meet with us, talk with us. Ultimately, anything that is to be considered for approval goes in front of the Development Review Board and all the DRB materials. We work with applicants on a regular basis to help them be as best prepared for the DRB as possible to have their projects line up with what the regulations call for and also meet with any interested residents who are concerned to help them understand how their concerns line up with the regulations so they can best speak to the project. Could we know the reasons behind the recommendation or the decision that you came to together in that discussion to change the plan from two duplexes to seven single families and two duplexes or 11 single families? I think that it's an iterative process. We raise some questions. The applicant had offered to meet with us talking about street designs, what the city's regulations are. It may or may not wind up being, as David described it, even before it gets to the DRB. This is part of every application has these evolutions. In this particular case, we were looking to see how to maximize the natural resources on the property collectively, where the city's regulations back in 2003 had very wide streets and where we've provided some feedback indicating where we thought that the DRB might be comfortable in order to narrow some areas to provide greater spaces for natural resources, how we're gonna be doing public works, maintenance of the roads in the future, that kind of thing. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, okay. I think the biggest change, Megan, was while we're subject to the old three regs, they wanted us to be cognizant of the current regs, and if we were able to get closer to the current regs, that should be considered a good thing. So for instance, the current regs want you closer to the street, which opened up more of that backyard space, it gave more space there. It also opened up more width. So again, that was where he says, iterative process, that was our decision. I think we did ask the question on whether there was any feedback from them on duplex versus single family, and I recall that they both said that they didn't really have any heartache or any direction on one or the other. So that was your decision. Yeah, what you have here is the 11 units, unfortunately, that's what's on the master plan. So that's what Jim McDonald has to sell. So that's what we're gonna do, or somebody else is gonna do. That's just, that's the reality of it. There's 11 units, he's getting his money for 11 units. He agreed to those 11 units, giving away units in other places in Vermont National. That was all part of the court case. So parcel 11 units was one of the many parcels that the number of units went up as part of that court settlement. So that's the reality. Well, any of them be affordable? I'm seeing their square footage, it seems. They will not be affordable. They will be same as the other Vermont National homes and townhomes. Which is, what's the price range of those? I don't know offhand, but I know that these are gonna be 500 and up. Yeah. Is stormwater, those rules also frozen in 2003 or would it be current stormwater? Stormwater, any of the criteria and subject to act 250 are part of it. It's just, my understanding, it's just the land development regs. Yeah. Rosanne, and then Mr. Perkel. A general comment, but one specific first. This idea about being closer to the road was something that came up during the foreign based code for city center. When we were envisioning it and the consultants we worked with at the time, we were talking about when you're in a city, having things close to the road made sense. We're in a rural area. So I don't know why we keep talking about close to the road in a rural area, but that's a minor point. The bigger point is if this development is caught under IZ, and so I'm confused. Obviously it is, or we wouldn't be here discussing it, right? So I'm assuming it is caught under IZ. The whole purpose of IZ, if you look at the statute, is to accomplish something. And what the council wanted to accomplish was a way to preserve our remaining open spaces. This does just the opposite, right? So for the council to jump ahead and approve this development, and then next week there could be another development and another development on open rural spaces, it contradicts the whole purpose of IZ to take a broad view before making individual decisions that could possibly end up doing just the opposite of what IZ was enacted for. And I'll give you one example. When we were under IZ before, and we did the same thing you're doing, we the city council, the applicant would go to the DRV and come to the city council, and it was a development, it was the RYE development, right? The IZ committees were still doing their work, and we voted to approve a development. Under IZ, we took the exception and approved it, I voted against it, but nonetheless. As soon as the IZ committees were done, one of the findings was there was a prime agricultural soil on the development we had just approved. Had we waited a few weeks, well, we never finished a job of IZ, we could have redesigned that development to save the prime ag soil and now there's houses sitting on prime ag soil. I tell you that, just not in the city. I'm looking at that map, I'm looking at there's no prime ag soil. This is just an example, right? Is that had we waited till the IZ committees gave their recommendations, or like Michael was talking about at PUD, we would have had a broader idea of what was out there, what to be saved, what not to be saved, but because we made individual choices along the way, we sort of defeated the purpose. So I'm just encouraging the council to wait till you get all the information before you maybe jump on approving individual developments. Mr. Kirkel. Actually that was part of the question I was gonna ask is there is interim zoning at this point in time. So really what this gentleman is here is requesting is an exception. And I'm here to ask you not to grant the exception, but to go through the plan to create whatever it is you are. And then if down the road, after we've gone through that process, it is decided that this project will move forward, then we will all show up at the zoning committee at the zoning meetings and we will talk about at that time. But my purpose here was to say, please don't grant the exception. Thank you. Can I ask a question? Yes. For clarification, because this is somewhat beyond what our usual purview is in our usual decision making process is either of Amanda or Paul or Kevin or all three of you. What are we supposed to be exactly listening to and deciding at this point? Can we have Amanda? I could use a little clarification here on, on, I mean, I don't want to spend the whole evening talking about this, if, if what? If we have no jurisdiction. Yeah, exactly. So can you tell us where we're headed and what we should be doing here? And I forgot to state before I'm in Mandelaferty, I'm the deputy city attorney. Could you seek up a little please? Sure. Am I working? Pull it towards you. I'm in Mandelaferty, I'm the deputy city attorney. So the city adopted the interim bylaws and those establish different review standards than the standards that the Development Review Board will review the application under. The standards for the under the interim bylaws are in section five, Roman numeral five. And so those are the review standards. This project is, or the land that the project is proposed for is subject to the interim bylaws. But will it be subject to any changes that come out of the interim bylaws? I think there will not be. It will not be. Thank you. It will not be. It's the regulations that the Development Review Board will review this application under are established. So I think the main thing, it doesn't open any door. We're not really, I don't see it as an exception. I don't think it applies to this project because of the past history in the court case. So it's not opening up any can of worms for other parcels that aren't subject to this court case. I guess I'm not completely clear, Amanda, as to what are immediate role and choices are at this point in time. Well, it is an unusual case, but technically because of the location of the property and what's proposed, they are submitting, it's a planned unit development. It's, and because the preliminary plaid application, which is the first major step in submitting an application for a planned unit development because that had not been submitted prior to October 25th, 2018, they are, they do require approval from the city council under the interim bylaws. But there are many of the purposes for which the interim bylaws were adopted are arguably either not applicable or it would be difficult to fulfill them in connection with this application. Without going to court. All right. Without going to court. Which we've already been in, but which we already settled. In the first place. So we could vote to continue this or close it and do what happens if we close it. We have to vote 45 days. Yeah, take any more testimony and we have to vote in 45 days. Yeah. We have to vote in 45 days. I'm today. To approve or deny. If you close it. So if we continue it, we could continue it until IZ is done and then it's no longer our bailiwick to work through this. I mean, I don't think we as the council have the expertise to determine how this thing is going to finally shake out. So what I'm trying to understand is, go ahead Paul. Can I maybe provide some clarity from a different perspective here? That'd be good. Generally speaking and correct me if I'm wrong, the purposes of interim zoning are to consider new bylaws. How do you want to shape development differently in the future? Here, because the court settlement that the city council and the other parties agreed to establish a set of rules in the past, any changes that you make to the regulations in the future won't affect this project. And so I would suggest that the council's rule today is to determine whether the project that Mr. Burke has put forward is consistent with the court settlement. If it exceeds it, you asked about change. Let's say they propose 20 units on this property. They would then be subject to a change in the master plan and the agreement would be irrelevant. Then that would be fully subject to all elements of interim zoning. If they remain at or below 11 units and at or below four dwelling units in any structure, then they will be remain subject to the rules from 2003. It's still to go through Act 250, right? It's still off to go through Act 250. It's still off to go to the DRB. It's a current Act 250 and DRB from 2003 rules. It's a public process that people can participate in. It should. Yeah, in accordance with the rules from 2003. I move that we close this public hearing. I will second that motion. So in essence, what we're deciding is whether what they are proposing without having gone any further at all is still in compliance with the court decision that falls under the decisions of 2003. Is that correct? Yes. So we're really not doing anything at all? It appears that they've fallen into a loophole kind of thing. It's not really even a loophole. Oh, it's that. Then the court is probably under the current regulations that 11 units were going to be allowed and that's where it sits. And that's it. We have nothing, we really have a right to decide because the entire project still has to go through all the processes. So I'm not sure what the heck we're voting on. I'm not sure what this is. It was still subject to interim zoning because everything is prohibited except the things that you specifically listed as being exempt. And a prior court settlement was not something that you would specifically. So bottom line is we can't do anything about this one way or the other. Anyway, it's not our purview. Right? Well, Tim said it's an option, but that's something we should talk about in the executive session. We're not going back to court on this. Just to clarify, it's in deliberations because you're sitting in a quasi-judicial proceeding. Deliberation is not executive session. You'll be deciding the reasons for or against a particular. The only thing that's on the table right now is whether or not to close or continue the hearing. That's correct right now. That's the only decision you have to make tonight. If we continue, we need a reason to continue and more information that we want to collect. Does anybody have more information they want to collect to judge on this that we're not going to get from our attorneys? Well, Tom, if I'm understanding it correctly, there is no more information. Either the 11 units complies with a court decision of a long time ago or it doesn't. Is that really it? I think if Jim McDonald hadn't retired and his attorney hadn't retired, it would be part of the excluded map. But they dropped the ball. So that's why we're here. That's my opinion. All right, well, Roseanne, I'm happy to take one more comment. One other thing to think of, and I'm certainly hoping you don't think your vote validates or a legal ruling because it doesn't, you're actually starting to do that. But I heard the developers say that they worked with the planning and zoning, and they are amenable to maybe developing this in concert with new thinking and with our new amendments. All right, I'm doing well. Which I think is commendable because hopefully we're thinking differently about things than we did 20 years ago. So with that in mind, would the developer be willing to wait until the work is done? And for instance, this PUD, they don't have to abide by it, but they could. And if this comes up with valuable information about how to save land, how to make it more attractive, how to damage less of the environment, the developer might be willing to do that if we give them the chance. This locks in. I mean, they can always change it in the future. But right now, if you agree with it, they could start building right away under the old standards. When we come up with better newer thinking and plans, maybe they would be open to that. But if they've already broken ground and put buildings up, they obviously won't have that opportunity. In response to that, and in all fairness, he is in touch with our planning and zoning folks who have been actively engaged with the planning commission on the development of these new regulations. And let's knock on wood, but they're within months of coming to the first public hearing, right? But it's yet still, it's here, right? And I think that he doesn't have to comply with those new regulations in that language. But the idea is something that he can still benefit from. I mean, I don't know what everybody is talking about. I'm talking about Paul. I'm talking about his staff, right? Yeah, and his work is still in progress. Right. And then he has some steps to go through. And I'm sure it's going to be an iterative process going forward as well. And I think that just like we commented on the trees with regard to the past, IZ hearing that we had, thinking about what Mr. Purkel had to say with regard to just looking into backyards from Dorset Street, I think that's something I would hope, David, that you would take home and think about having some kind of buffer there from Dorset Street thinking about that. There's some pretty good mature trees that are obviously going to stay along that back line. But that is getting more towards preliminary at the DRV level. So the seeds have already been planted from what we know having been in South Burlington before and input that we've received from staff. So we'll certainly continue. We don't get to call all the shots. This is a parcel of land that's for sale and will be sold. And whether the developers are willing to go slow, which they already have for 12 years, Mr. McDonald is ready to sell. He's at the age where if they put the brakes on, they would probably lose their contract. So that's why we're moving forward. Any other comments from my colleagues? I mean, they came before us in 2012. This project came up at the DRV in 2012. Probably the last time it was in. And then it just went away. It was just sketched. Yeah, I'm not privy to all the conversations between the developers or really any of the conversations between the developers and the owner. So I think we were able to move forward at that time. I'm not sure why it didn't. Well, no, this begs a question. I mean, if I were a developer, and I wanted to make sure I got my project, even though it was grandfathered in 2003, if I wanted to get it in before IZ changed anything, I mean, now's the time to do it. So just floating that out there, that this is good for that particular type of work to do. Again, I don't understand your timing, so I don't know. I was surprised that we had to come here. I thought the court case, and I think it does, but because court cases weren't listed on that. That's a technicality. It's the more appropriate, the more accurate term. I thought we'd go through the normal DRV process. I mean, we got a motion to close the hearing. And we had a second. And if we continue it, then what happens? We would hopefully hear more testimony. That would be the only reason to, right? That would be a reason why. I mean, the only reason that I, you know, then by then the IZ committees will have done more of their work, and maybe there will be more, I don't know. That don't necessarily have bearing on what they're doing. And Helen can watch, yeah, Helen can watch and educate herself on our discussion, and then we would make that decision in deliberative session. Yeah, all right. So we have a motion and a second to close this public hearing. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Thank you. Thank you for coming out. It is past nine o'clock, and that is the time when we take a little five-minute stretch, and so we'll be back here in five minutes, all right? Oh, Helen, before I forget, I talked to Bill Stenger about a half hour before the meeting. He sends his best regards and says, oh, good, yeah, he's wishing it. You just wanted a, well, a couple times. You're always optimistic. So we're returning from a short recess, and we're moving on to item number 13, continued discussion on upcoming deadline for the expiration of interim zoning. And Paul Connor has been designated to lead us in this discussion, I suppose, just with regard to the law. The resource for you should have any questions about it, but I don't have a presentation for you. Excellent, all right. So I think this is a preliminary discussion. We're gonna be meeting this Friday at four o'clock when all five of us will be present, and I think it's- Well, that's this Friday, right? That's this Friday. I am not here this Friday. Oh, you're not here this Friday. I'm not here any Thursdays or Fridays. Oh, okay. Did Helen know that? Okay, all right. Is Helen here on Friday? On Friday, she is here on Friday. Yes. Okay, so I think this is just a moment for us to kind of debrief. I mean, we had a pretty, I thought, good discussion, meaty discussion last Thursday, but gives us another chance to debrief after we've thought about it over the weekend. Just correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that what I took away is that we have several committees who have been actively working to meet the August 13th deadline. I know that my committee has. I sensed also that it seemed reasonable to believe that the work could be done with regard to having at least a public hearing in the Planning Commission by the end of the year. She used the word optimistic, but let's be optimists. And I know from my own committee that September is the time when we would be submitting a final report. I also took away that we can, with regard to the statute, we can call it closed, expired when it expires, or we can extend it by three month increments, not six month increments. So the way that you wrote your, the by-law when you adopted it was that you can take the affirmative action to extend it in three month increments after the first nine months. So if you take no action this Friday, then it would expire on the 13th. If you choose to extend it, then you would have, it would be extended for up to three months. You can always, of course, repeal at any time in between, but I would be extended for up to three months at which time if you chose to extend it again, it would be the same process of a public hearing and an action. I'm up for extending it. Yeah, I think, somebody explained to you, maybe I did, the reason I wasn't there last Thursday. I know you're up in Montreal. Well, yeah, because back in April, my wife had convinced me that we should go to a concert in Montreal on August 1st, well, you know, that wasn't something I could change. So that was that, so I apologize for that. But from what I, the little bit that I've read, and from having talked with Alan Strong before last Thursday, you know, everything I think is making from what I perceive is really good progress. Everybody's been working really hard. And so I think no doubt, no question, we extend it. And if everybody continues to work hard, then maybe we won't go three months. And as you just said, we don't need to, but we're not gonna be done in five, six days or whatever the heck it is. So we need to extend it. Do we need a motion to do that? Is that what we need? On Friday. Oh, I can't vote by proxy on Friday, can I? As long as Helen's going to be here, and hopefully the rest of you agree, then you don't need me anyway, right? Do you want, do you go along? So I will say this, the committee's work, I'm very impressed with it. I'm really looking forward to seeing what the TDRs come up with. I also think the open space prioritization of those parcels are of great value, never been done before. And I think the PUD work makes sense. So it just makes for better, smarter development. I didn't support it in terms of zoning then, not gonna support it now. I still just don't think it's a necessary tool to accomplish these tasks, but you don't need my vote. You've got the votes, so you're gonna extend on Friday. Okay, as long as... Short and sweet? Yeah, that's good. You get to go to bed early. All right, thank you, Paul. All right, so now we're to number 14, Counselor's Reports from Committee Assignments. And I know you talked about the TDR committee, but perhaps you wanna just refresh us all. You had a meeting last week. What I'd like to refresh your... The only thing that the new is the Pension Advisory Board, right? SCI came to give us our quarterly update. And in that was the change had been made for the two or 3% change to the real estate. Yeah, so there's a core real estate holding that we increased an amount from and took it away from fixed, right? Yeah, so that is accomplished and done. Just to say no. And as far as TDR, we did meet one more time as I said last, I think it was last week and finalized some changes on the last draft report. And Michael presented the highlights of that last week. We still haven't seen that though. No, it went to Paul and it has not been published yet. Anxiously awaiting it. I mean, yeah, I mean, Michael hit on all the points, you know, last week with the high points with it, but, you know, they're, you know, We'll put it into the fighting commission packet for likely their coming meeting this week and for we available to... GMT? Yeah, so... Last going on. We did separate, we... Marx also effectively resigned July 20th. And so now we have charged the selection committee, the vice chair, Bonnie DeWeninger, who will be taking one way or the other. She's taking the chair from me on January 1st. I will step down and resign if need be, but I just, I can't keep doing all the things I'm doing. But she is going to lead the selection process and we have formed the committee and we have committed John Moore to being the interim manager for the duration. So he will probably be the last interim manager we had us for five months. So he's hopefully been easy to work with. If you have any concerns, please let me know. But GMT's still operating, we're doing well. The next gen has been rolled out and I'm hearing a lot of positive things just tonight about some of our major changes. Any questions about GMT? You're stepping down January 1st? Yeah, I wasn't going to be chair, but... No chair, but are you going to remain as a... You guys appointed me for life, so I'm just going to ride this thing into the sunset. Just to make sure that my stress wasn't changing. And the GMT bus. And the GMT bus. Just as chair. I just got too many irons in the fire. I guess there's two of you and we don't know which turns up. I mean that. It's my secret. I guess that's a possibility. You're twins. Some identical twins are really identical. There are some. Yeah. All right. So far, next gen is working well from all your partners and everything. Good. The expected glitches, but I think it was a successful rollout. Good. Good. All right. We are meeting for the Open Space IC Committee on the 13th and that's when we hope to have really a conversation with public and attendance, but really amongst ourselves to kind of just get out these last few knots and kinks and be ready to put together a final package in September. So that's the plan there. But yeah, it takes some time, but I think that it's good to let everything settle and see what all of those months of thinking about the different criteria that we've been looking at, how it all comes together for the city. I mean, it's really looking at the whole picture and that's what we're really working on right now as opposed to just individual parcels. All right. Very good. So under other business, I have been told that we can, in fact, if we so choose, deliberate on that IZ application that came before us. So we can do that right now. Before you get started, if you can choose to do it as you have yourselves right now, or if you can choose to do it for close. I don't really see any need to do it. It's up to you. I don't want to sway anything. I just don't have any objection to doing it. I don't see any need to go into close session myself. This is on the one we just heard. But in terms of other business, I had two other things I want to talk about. Very good. Okay. So I think that we're all in agreement that we can do it right here. And now, okay. All right. I need. Make a motion to approve. No. I have a draft. Oh. What we're looking for is the oral guidance. Oral guidance. I am in favor of, if there was a motion to approve IZ application, IZ-19 ASHO, to reverse edge building development, I would probably be in favor of that by virtue of the fact that it's locked into the LDRs of 2003. And we don't really have any jurisdiction to put forth any judgment on that application. We had a really expensive legal court case over this matter for too long of time. So I'm of the same mind as Tim. And with that, as you write whatever you gotta write up, can we encourage them to incorporate appropriate good work from the results of the interim bylaws as well? I mean, he said they would do that, but can we encourage that as part of our motion, as part of the resolution? Whatever you have to, what do you say? You have to draft a what? It's a formal decision that you're mentioning. You're funding as a statutory court. Can we write wording in the formal decision that encourages that? We do that with the BCA. Non-binding. Non-binding. As long as it's clear that it's not binding on them and that they should not be, but it couldn't be interpreted as anything happened. Well, it's subliminal, but there's nothing wrong with that, I don't think. Binding aspirational. Yeah. Wouldn't that be appropriate to do it? So, yeah, let's. Dan or Dask. That's my recommendation. Try and honor current LDRs and possible future ones that planning and zoning recommends small changes to the PUD to make it as 21st century as possible. Or to work, continue to work with staff, to work towards the goals. Yeah, exactly, yeah. Yes. Non-binding. Right. So, you have to see the draft in advance of your next meeting. Okay. And then you'll take a formal action in order to assess whether it could be binding because it doesn't need to be on the agenda. All right. Thank you. That's sufficient. Thanks Paul. All right, okay. Thank you. Two other items. Real quick. Kevin, thank you for telling me that they're going to pave Orlick Park. We don't know when that's going to happen. I think it's this part. Is it part of the overall paving plan, Tom, or is it separate? I do remember. I think that Justin got a bit of price by incorporating it into the plan. So, we're a little bit more at the mercy of the contractor, but my understanding is that it will be done by the fall. As we put money in the CIP. Council approved money in the CIP as a CIP related issue. So it's different, a little bit different than just the paving. Right. But we're going to get a bit of price by doing it through the contract. And then the little island landscaping is in dire need of attention. And I don't know how we can initiate that in terms of design, replanting, ripping out stuff that's ugly, maybe lowering its height so that you can still see from the road through that stuff. Yeah, there's some people that have a pretty strong vested interest in that island, as I understand it. Is that the people who originally planted it? So there used to be a group that cared for it that... Used to be, that's the key. Yeah, I think that... I mean, that's the Rotary. I mean, that seems like a perfect Rotary project. Justin could probably better speak to it because I think the Arborist had worked with that group for a while. And anyway, I think Kevin's right. I think there was initially a group of people that cared for it. And then I think the Parkes crew kind of came in and I think they felt they were kind of in the way and they stepped back. And ideally there would be a mutual group that could continue to care for that, I think. I would think that the chief of police might be interested in lowering the height of those plantings to obtain clear vision across into the park as they're driving by, you know. I can go look at that too. It's a valid point. Okay, and the last thing was, my wife has a GoFundMe page for the utility box funding. I gave 20 bucks yesterday. Thank you. So if you go to the Facebook group, SVBT Community Watch, scroll down, you'll find a link to the GoFundMe for SV Public Art. And please, any little thing helps for buying paint, buying more paint. A formal decision from the state. We're, it's pending, it's very close. Yeah, there are just a few little things like they want people to wear the orange vests, you know. Safety issues, things like that. But I don't think it's gonna be an issue. Why would the state, what happened to the state? We have to obtain permits for each of the things we wanna paint for the state, like underneath the bridges or the murals, stuff like that on the walls. GMP has said flat out no, because all of their boxes are very high voltage and they don't wanna take any chances of people touching them. Okay. So, it's just the telecom boxes, the traffic control boxes, and other cement things. Okay. Maybe the food shelf. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's all I have. Last thing on the agenda, unless there's other business, so we're gonna get off on the road here, is to adjourn. Motion to adjourn. Aye. Aye. Second aye. See you, Tom. Yeah. Be safe. Have a right, Tom. Hope you have a light. You need a reflector on your backpack. You're raring dark colors. Maybe Uncle Leo will give him a ride home. Yeah. That's what he's always hitting him up. Yeah, yeah, for the truck. Yeah. I would, too. I apologize, my summer availability is not great, but it's fitting in quality family time when family's available and there's not much you can do. Lord, I want to do anything. I hear you. That's the way it is. I hear you. Both my girls here for four days. Tonight. This week? This past week? That's in the middle of the night, damn. I like that it happened again for all of you. It's so hard at our stage to fit that in and make it work. Yeah. Sorry. I'm sorry. Thank you.