 Okay, thank you everybody for joining us here again. This is the last session not only of today, but also of the this year's UP World Leaders Forum and We started this morning with the topic of sustainability We had a lot of input insights a lot of visionary views on different aspects Of course unsustainability and now we want to take a bit deeper and I will briefly introduce the panel Which we are having with us here all experts of course in sustainability We have Katerin Izotam, she's the head of communications and ESG at Omniva. We have Andrea Stoenie He is the EVP group strategy digital digital and innovation at Austria post we have Colin Campbell He is the senior vice president sustainability at Norway post and we have James Hale He is experts sustainability services at the UPU and I suggested we start hearing from what Omniva is doing in the area of sustainability and learn a bit more about all your projects initiatives Maybe some use cases, please Okay, hi everybody nice to be here. I have like five minutes or slightly more. So the idea was to Briefly tell you what is what is the strategic frame? We are coming from and then maybe bring a couple of fun or cool cases that we are actually working with to To be of hopefully of inspiration If we try if I try to summarize what we do in a nutshell, I would say that the framework is consisting of free focuses or key strategic areas we are working with and Six related UN sustainability goals. So first of all, of course, logically, we are in the logistics and transportation So we definitely have an impact on environment and we need to work with with becoming cleaner and cleaner We have said, well, you can see the picture here. We are using walk bikes We are testing packster bikes that are also available for testing here at the mess or at the fair We are changing our fleet. All that is basically becoming a hygiene. I would say so Currently Omniva is pretty much in the beginning of the journey. We have less than 10% of our fleet electric But we have ambitious plans for the coming years An example that is maybe a bit less Kind of spread or maybe interesting to see is that we are besides having solar energy at our logistic centers We have pretty big solar parks We are currently building a big logistic center in the Baltics in Kaunas and that solar park will be like free football Court sizes or something like that. We are also testing solar energy on our mobile Parcel lockers and our parcel lockers overall. So this one is from Latvian market and on very good and sunny days It does it produces more than more than 100% of the energy needs So actually a pretty good use case to to be hopefully expanded and we are having those solar panels on our mobile lockers in In Estonia currently as well So the overall goal is 10 minus 50% by 2030 and then net zero by 2050 and we are Compiling all sorts of plans to to pack those ambitions plans up Secondly what we want to be as a business vision We want to be preferred logics logistic service provider in the region and we strongly believe that a lot of that comes with being Innovative in terms of of technologies we exploit and test in terms of our services and everything Because out of that what we have or will have is a better customer service better customer service satisfaction Also better security and privacy being high up on the list also for ESG better accessibility and so forth. This one is a cool example of a Smart locker system that people or households or or apartment buildings can have literally at their doorstep It's a smart system and it is open network. So it's open for our competition as well We are currently have about 800 across Estonia We of course want to want to expand and to similar stuff further on Third last but not least it's all about people. It's all about the s of ESG, right? So our focus starts with our own people. We are a large employer in the Baltics So we have about two thousand and five hundred people. We want them to be happy. Obviously Treated well engaged well, etc. We want them to be diverse the team that is diverse So I hope we all agree is producing best results. So yes We follow gender diversity, but we also follow broader diversity meaning that we have 11 mother tongues For instance at our employees employee base and of course we want people with different backgrounds different ages and so on so forth And then we extend to communities because Omniva Estonian post in Estonia and Omniva in the Baltics We are we have we have the largest infrastructure. We are really close to people So we do work very close with communities trying to To meet all sorts of needs For instance one of the things we do in Estonia where we are further away than five kilometers From from a person we provide for free person and delivery So people can always use our services if they are a bit further away because Estonia famously is like, you know scarcely populated so to say so Then we do to provide services to be still very much accessible for everybody So once again environment our own business being long-term and sustainable And sort of treating the communities around us in a sustainable way because we believe that Then we will have a better chance of of being alive and being prosperous in the future as well and then the people that we want to treat with With respect and dignity and so forth. Those are the the three main focuses that we have and So it is what we do today is is clearly affecting how tomorrow will look like So there's a famous saying about sustainability. So if everybody clean their doorstep, well, it would be clean, right? So I guess we are starting from ourselves Thank you. Thank you very much Catherine Austria post is very active in sustainability It really four on and several different areas when it comes to sustainability Andreas, can you explain a bit more about what you're doing? Sure. Thank you for the invitation having me here So I'm coming from the strategy side. So Why is that and why I'm here? We believe that it's tightly linked. There's a title link between strategy and sustainability So we have a quite long-term strategic Roadmap and pillars that are set in stone for years But we revamped this in 2020 to include also sustainability more strictly and what this looks like is that we have our overall corporate strategic framework in four pillars with in the center Sustainability but also diversity and customer orientation and that was a key change for us that we said We have to do this for everything what we do and we put this into the center already in 2020 And we see now over the last actually three four years that this is there was the right choice to do that because everybody's talking about that And it's the key and by doing so we also had a good cultural change that people See that it's important that our CEO and all board talks about it and also Stresses the importance to keep this in all what we are doing This is along with the three goals. We're having from from our core business and growth and also a New products we're doing in there in the business of SMEs and private customers but I want to talk about the center there and Here we as also Omnivore and many others have also the three pillars in terms of goals we want to grow obviously there is the the whole area about revenue and Showing economic performance and being there also in the future Compensating the male decline having also the e-commerce business and so on But also strict goals for the environment and there our key and flagship goal basically is the hundred percent carbon-free Delivery in Austria until 2030 which is a very strict roadmap because that means that we move completely to e-vehicles We have already The largest fleet of e-vehicles in Austria. We're talking about 4,000 of them. The first ones introduced early in the 2010s So we are already coming to the question of what we are doing with the second generation of vehicles How we use the first generation that is replaced second life battery questions and so on And obviously also the other goals that we are having on the scope one two and three emissions in line with the goals of the climate agreements and so on Next year we want to be the 2040 and then there's the social part We really see this element that we want to Foster also women in executive positions with a target of 40 percent there But this is also one goal and they're multiple in it in general. We have roughly 14 Projects or programs that all build on this to make it implemented and to make it work Maybe one view that summarizes our journey a little bit is this one last slide to keep it short and crisp So our footprint in terms of carbon emissions is In three areas. It's about the delivery and letter of letters and parcels. It's about transport logistics and about buildings Over the years now since 2009 to now we did a very good job. I think in terms of reducing it in buildings It might not look like a good job in some other areas But we kept the other in total it flat even though we had an increase in transport volumes of 70% So we were able to compensate for this and now the journey is going towards 2030 Presically capping the yellow part in without talking about Austria But in the whole group we have similar plans to move these directions No, we're not so fast in our sea countries. So Austrian post operates in 13 countries. Most of them being in sea Turkey a major one also On that and the other challenge and it's still a challenge for the whole industry I guess and will be for us is a transport logistics So the question will be there. What's the technology that is the future? There are intermediate technologies like LNG or HVO that we have been testing and are using now to see what's What's there? What is how much is it worth and how much can it be scaled? I think the scaling problem if everybody jumps to HVO It's going to be a different story and the pricing price points for this will be different But then down the road the question is it's a battery is it hydrogen or maybe even something else We don't think about yet But the infrastructure if we talk about hydrogen for example, isn't there yet So the greatest challenge for us is how we get rid of this large block of transport logistics costs on the CO2 side Still not neglecting what we have all have to do on the social business side and to stay economic revival but talking about the CO2 is dead and We also have this programs of producing our own electricity We build a lot of photovoltaic in Austria thinking also about other energy sources there So it's it's a whole package We are working on with the 14 measures in terms of our sustainability all Link tightly in our strategy and we hope to move further there differentiating now Probably it's going to be standard in some years down the road and we think about other Differentiations, but we want to be a forerunner there in industry and show what's possible I Mean like all the Nordic countries I mean no way you have always been a forerunner as well when it comes to sustainability And we are keen to hear a bit about what you have been doing and a few examples cases activities, please Thank you very much. Let's not forget that no it produces quite a lot of oil and gas as well So but we don't need to take that discussion here Thanks very much for the invitation I'm going to share some of our experience when it comes to sustainability in in the Nordics And I'm going to start with a picture that you can see behind me now And this is our electric fleet on Svalbard, which is an island relatively far north on the globe Which is a showcase of climate change where we see permafrost and ice caps melting etc And it illustrates the dilemma Which we have to face many of when working with sustainability in the logistics sector And the dilemma is that all these electrical vehicles function very well in the cold harsh environment But we have to charge on coal generated energy because that's all that's available on on Svalbard But the point is you can't wait for the perfect solution You have to try as long as slightly better than fossil and improving technology and testing then you should you should go for it So I'm going to come back to a couple of dilemmas very shortly by us as a group. We operate in all the Nordic countries 80 percent of our revenue comes from not from mail from the logistics e-commerce freight etc 13 000 people operate about four and a half thousand vehicles of our own And have about 40 terminals within the northern Nordic regions And 375 years old in good company with a lot of other postal companies I think And the point is here that innovation and and making Making new solutions and testing out new things is not a new story for us We've been doing this for many many times tested our first electrical vehicle in the beginning of the 90s And we've been working dedicated with a sustainability agenda now for at least 12 or 13 years Which has been fun and moving into obviously digital marketplaces as well And I think again, we also recognize the macro trends that are hitting not just us but At the moment it's economic uncertain times Which makes this challenging in terms of dealing with investments and sustainability work, which needs to be on on the list And also the the depth and the breadth of sustainability I'm going to come back to that because that's really becoming a bit of an issue for us In terms of how much compliance and reporting that's that's hitting us that tsunami was was mentioned earlier And we need to balance that I think that's really important And securing talent is important. We see that in our employer branding work having sustainability high up on the agenda Is actually a really important part of our employer branding. So that's that's valuable for us Here's our esg model. I think everyone's got an esg people planet profit model And I think there's a couple of things that I want to I want to talk about on the model here And not go through the whole thing but obviously in the logistics sector The main thing for us is obviously the emissions to air reducing our carbon emissions from our transport That's that's really what's we've been focusing on for many many years now And that's still the most important thing but the agenda is wide as we heard earlier on And one thing that's also quite new for us now that we work on understanding is the effect on nature and biodiversity There's some global agreements and some regulations that are hitting us there We need to understand how operations are affecting biodiversity and that's something that we And a lot of other Nordic companies are working on so so next week We're meeting all the Nordic climate and environmental ministers to discuss this with them And obviously as I mentioned the governance part is important And dealing with all the compliance and obviously making sure that we have profitable operations Is the foundation of sustainability for for us as it is for many others Science-based targets. I'm not going to go through our roadmap We've had science-based targets approved for the last two and a half years We're now in the middle of Revising those targets as we're actually progressing quite quite well according to the the current targets And if want to say something about the challenges within that work, it's Doing the transition on your own fleet in your own operations. That's quite easy But it's doing your scope three your subcontractors. That's a big challenge That's a big headache and I think for most of us. That's where all our emissions are But I would highly recommend the science-based targets methodology It's very robust very demanding and it forces you all the way up to the board to understand how you're going to make this roadmap That's that's enough And we are we are now reducing our emissions in line with the the paris agreement, which is which is good This is the diagram which excludes something quite important. This is at norway So in norway, we've got oil and gas Big emissions the big elephant in the room that nobody actually wants to talk about But if we look away from that and look at all the other sectors electrifying heavy-duty transport is Is abatement action number two on the list? So it's really important for norway to reach its climate goals So so we get the attention of the the government of the ministers, etc When we try to influence politics and framework requirements around this work And that's something we use use unashamedly as much as we can to to drive the agendas And yeah, we're not as big as a lot of operators But we feel that we've progressed quite well the paxters when we mentioned earlier We started developing the paxters in 2011 with the company in norway And now they're exported to many parts of the world. We now have 500 in operation We have a lot of electrical vans And we now have 80 large liquid biogas trucks and 70 pure electric trucks And quite a lot more in order in our next procurement process So basically progressing up the the scale in terms of electrification, which is interesting We still see challenging TCO TCO calculations depending on use case two to three times a diesel a diesel vehicle, which is challenging But also recently the finance director became our best friend when we issued out green bonds Where we've got excellent interest rates in the marketplace because we can document improve what we're doing on the climate front Two days ago, we had a press conference with with our minister of transport in norway Where we basically announced that we are now building infrastructure for charging or heavy-duty charging in the entire country of norway We're doing this. We're putting up 100 points at eight terminals strategically placed basically Mostly for distribution around terminals, but we're building line hall corridors as well as as the technology progresses And this is also it's good for us But also a bit frustrating because we wish that the the national government would take this responsibility And they are but it's going just a bit too slow Here's the tsunami we heard about all these acronyms, aren't they lovely? These are things that we in our business have to understand both international national Sector regulations. How do you navigate? What do you follow? What don't you follow? How do you not spend all your time in reporting and compliance? How do you spend more time on creating value for for the government? I mean for your company not for the government That's that's a big issue for us here in europe and I should imagine other places as well My last slide a bit of Bit of boasting we've reduced our emissions by 55% since 2012 We know about half of our vehicles are going on renewable energy sources and we are Heading half of norway's population with electric deliveries That's it. Thank you Thank you very much. Now, let's turn to James and then to hear from the upu and probably I think about how can you Transform traditional postal infrastructure Yeah, that's you see it. It's done. We've finalized you can you can make the farewell speech Can we go back to the slides from James? Is this yours? Yes, that's mine Okay, so thank you so much for the The opportunity to be the last person to speak because I benefit hugely from listening to this amazing progress the cutting-edge work that's taking place across the world And we also had a lot of really interesting examples Earlier today the the first sustainable development panel so My observation was that most of the discussion taking place was related to The reduction Let's say of emissions for the postal operator and how that postal operator can reduce its harm maybe make some advancements within the postal sector on sustainable development performance What I want to talk about is something slightly different In fact, I would say it's significantly different because I want to talk about the postal network as sustainable development infrastructure and In the first example the question was what can how can we reduce Or how can we improve our sustainable development performance of the postal operator? But I'm asking a second a different question, which is how can the postal infrastructure help other sectors to improve their sustainable development performance So it's an inward-looking question versus an outward-looking question and this is really important. I think strategically because I'll elaborate in a minute, but You know, this is an opportunity for innovation We have this amazing infrastructure So let's have a look at how it can be used and What is the motivation behind this we it's we're doing a good thing. That's great We can use our infrastructure maybe to help other sectors, but goodwill only gets us so far And what I'm going to talk about is how you can develop identified business opportunities By looking at repurposing that postal infrastructure for other sectors Just to give an example, we we heard already about charging infrastructure So the first question would be How can we Put in place electric postal vehicles and how can we make sure we're charging them efficiently? But the second question would be how can we use that charging infrastructure to support the transport sector more broadly? So they're two different questions, but they're related to the same infrastructure Okay, so what's the process that we would go through to consider this question The first step is to actually have a look at the postal infrastructure And it's actually a composite. It's it's obviously physical infrastructure. We have this amazing amazing reach high density of nodes, let's say in places where we're interacting with the public post buildings vehicles Part of that infrastructure system knowledge infrastructures institutions and policies that make the thing work, right But we also have digital infrastructures social infrastructures, so the Employees that we have within the sector, but also the customers the Millions if not billions of customers that we have they form a social network that we can actually mobilize to support broader sustainable development and last but not least Is our trust infrastructure? If we think of trust as an infrastructure that we've developed over hundreds of years That's incredibly valuable. It's it's valuable to us. It's central to who we are and what we do But it's also very valuable to other sectors so just Taking that infrastructure We can start to ask questions of it So traditionally we would say the function of the postal network is to provide core postal services That's what we're here for predominantly But we know that governments have other priorities If we look at the sustainable development goals, they've international community has literally identified a list of their major priorities globally And every country will have its different priority sdg sustainable development goal But typically they could include things like inclusion So digital inclusion is a massive issue Postal infrastructure could be used as public digital infrastructure. It could support the broader public digital infrastructure We already know that During covet the postal infrastructure was an essential part of the health Network It became much much stronger. Similarly. We have contributions to the education sector to sustainable cities and last but not least again climate So The final step really is to actually go out and interact with the representatives of the sector So this typically would be the ministry of health or the ministry of environment And we're actually encouraging postal operators and other Postal sexual players to go and ask that question have a meeting Um and ask them. What are your priorities? So don't start with the solution as we already heard from one of my colleagues earlier, lati He was basically pointing out Let's ask what the problem is that we're trying to solve And this identifies this potentially as part of a innovation exercise is huge Because there's so many problems in the world And we could apply This Infrastructure to help solve those problems. And again, it's not just a nice thing to do There's there's business opportunities that these are commercial sustainable development services that can be offered so this last slide Gives a flavor of some of those social sustainable development services and we're also starting to develop a menu of environmental sustainability services I'll skip through these quickly but We have all sorts of challenges related to aging populations People being Older people increasingly on their own living in different cities to their their families. So there's home checking for services that are being offered by posts We certainly know about the value of the post in terms of welfare payments Increasingly we're going to see a role for the postal network in disaster response So on the right here you see in a a mobile post office From japan post there that was deployed after a disaster Again, kovid Kickstarted all sorts of innovation around health services The postal network in china is being used to Deliver social aid to particularly Parts of the population who are in need And even climate services as i'll get on to now Well, actually i'm going to give an example related to health. So can I have a show of hands? Who's wearing glasses? I can't really see you It's just under half the people in this audience So just imagine what would happen if your glasses disappeared or you've never received glasses Would you be what would that impact? I know what happened to my I wouldn't be able to make this presentation I wouldn't be able to get on the plane. I don't think I'd very I'd struggle to do my job. So Just having something like this Which is small and relatively inexpensive has a massive impact on people's quality of life now About two million according to the whr about two million Sorry two billion people globally need some sort of Require some help with their eye health But only one billion have access to eye care services So the question would be can the postal network in this example be mobilized to provide eye case eye care services to the To the hard-to-reach population. So people in remote areas. Can they Do doorstep tests? Can they their post offices be used? To try on glasses. Can they deliver glasses? Can they be used to return the glasses for recycling? There's a whole potential ecosystem of services around eye health. And that's just one example. So I'm running out of time here. I could go on forever, but What I would say is let's Start thinking about how The postal network and the infrastructure of that network can be mobilized to deliver sustainability services Let's have fun Let's innovate And let's look for the commercial opportunities providing sustainable development services Thank you. Perfect. Thank you very much I look at the audience if there is anybody if you have a question that you want to ask to the or maybe A comment or anything else. Please just raise your hand. I try to to keep everybody here on the radar a bit throughout the session So just just raise your hand. I mean this morning we have talked about There's a question already where I said of my radar. Oh, okay. Yeah with a light sometimes it's difficult But please if there's already a question Sophie, right? Yes, this is Sophie Désil from French Post Thank you to all the speakers. I have a question to James You choose to focus on the network being a sustainable infrastructure But don't you think that the main responsibility for post interpreters is more about transport To be sustainable because it's our core business. Could you please develop a little over targets of sustainable activities you see at UPU level Not only networks, but maybe transports and an over segment. Thank you Please James. It was directly that's a great question. So I purposely avoided talking about The postal network itself because I wanted to provide a different perspective But absolutely, you know, the first the first priority is to get our house in order to make sure that we are performing as well as we can do as a network as a sector What I was proposing was that they're not mutually exclusive So so this is an opportunity to actually then say we've got this great infrastructure Hopefully very green infrastructure. Can we repurpose that? Can we can we add value? By generating revenue by helping other sectors to achieve their sustainable realistic priorities But at the UPU our primary focus within sustainable development is climate action for postal operators and I'm pleased to Echo the comments earlier that we had about the decision by Congress to have a global target for reducing emissions By 2050 It's 85 percent by 2050 and we could do more than that But at the moment, I think that's a very good target to be working with and a big part of that will be transport and will be providing a lot of support or In different key areas Whether that's guidance or whether that's providing A forum for discussion a matchmaking function for example between suppliers Knowledge sharing so there's a lot that we're doing there. So I didn't want to suggest that we shouldn't be doing work on Low carbon transport. We should absolutely be supporting that But also we can also think it more broadly and making that network that green network pay for itself many times over by Making it multifunctional Collin you wanted to rake as well There's a short comments that I'm not going to get involved in the priorities of the UPU, but just as an example I spoke a lot about the decarbonisation work we're doing But we are also deeply involved in exactly what you're describing at the moment with our governments In Norway, we are living longer not making enough children So we we having a huge social welfare problem in the future with the elderly people living at home so we are now In pretty deep discussions with the governments in terms of how how we can provide services nationwide And utilizing infrastructure utilizing some of the capacity that is becoming freed up as you know, the male volumes decline even more So this is definitely the point of our sustainability agenda and it's parallel with the decarbonisation societal services Do you also think about this in Austria post at omniver? Yes To be short, yeah, I mean the question is always then in terms of Currently the infrastructure is used by the e-commerce and we had good trade-offs with combined delivery and so on Do they match this but in the end there will be more and more of these questions and the use case you showed with Checking with elder listen on this is a use case discussed quite long already in different areas but I think at some point as you said with Lowering possibilities in the workforce or and in the health care system being more more in a crunch of getting people into the health care system There will be new opportunities and we will be discussing it. Yeah Actually omniver has been recently doing specifically that we've been analyzing two things One is our network in terms of post offices mostly How could we use that network better for for different state services providing? And that would be many things in one It would be becoming more and more accessible to people because we do have a large infrastructure. So So, uh, there's a social aspect to that but also of course a business case aspect for us. So, uh, so sort of a Optimization from that side and we've been testing Energy related cooperation and so forth another thing we've been actually Analyzing is how do we optimize the usage of our fleet? We have well, it's a small region, right? So we have some 650 Cars or or vehicles across the Baltics and there are different times of the day when they're not used so much Right. So how do we optimize that? Can we you know, can those be used? For some other reasons and we for some other partners and so on. So we've been looking into precisely The same direction so to say This morning, um We have been discussing as well Of the culture and the sustainability culture that is developing in organizations And I think andreas you have nicely shown it this triangle Which is really there in the center somehow, but how can you make sure that in every decision that is taken in the company? sustainability Plays a role is considered yeah Not not easy But I think it's it's one massive element is the toner from the top clearly I think the more and the more often The the board and the ceo and so on takes this Into their presentations and their discussions into their questioning of projects on on the daily basis The more it trickles down into the organization and the more also projects and everything that is then suggested are thought from this angle The other part I would mention is we had on top of the strategy then a large cultural project um where we then augmented the obvious element of of Yeah, efficiency that is there in in the postal world of of our culture with with also elements That are beyond that that that you are that they go into the area of sustainability That we want to have a reason that we want to have a joy in our work that we Build on the team culture the classical elements and and then this the social aspects that come out of that A much more driven and we trickle this down until the Very shop floor level in all the depots and so on so we wanted to include Everybody in the company and it's now the workshops have Broadly been held including also the retail network so that the the social dimension of being inclusive being And diversity matters and also working on which aspects can be then done on green, but this is only one element there That this is implemented that everybody knows this and this is Something that is fought also in terms of measurements We can do in our own depot in our own small team And this is the other way bottom up that helps as well And that again has to be also started from the top, but then be done until the very Late lowest management level and team level Cut short please I'd add incentivization Across the organization so sustainability being tied to people's personal goals Is definitely something that helps of course I can agree with the tone from the top And then of course people in top are also incentivized by different things Some people want to have an impact and some people are maybe more practical When it comes to show me the money type of Statement back, then I think there are plenty of examples That can be given towards the top for instance if I think about Root optimization in in our industry. It's it's not only about reducing emissions. It's also hugely efficient And we'll you know bring along lesser expenses and then better gains if I think about omniva omnivise on the track to ipo Hopefully early 2025 There won't be an ipo without a very good esg System in the company or your valuation will be simply very different, right? so So there are different things to approach people but one thing I've experienced in my Previous job, which was in tech sector was that if you really incentivize we have personal goals across the organization that will help And those can be different goals Of course people's roles are tied to different areas. They have like more or less impact in different areas But as a rule of thumb, I would suggest that as well Are you ensured that in a way post or in bring Sustainabilities taken care of in every kind of decision making within the company Is there some are there some rules are there some filters as we had as we have discussed this morning? Do you have that as well? Well, I agree with what's just been said by my colleagues here But I think if you can summarize it, it's kind of like a push and a pull situation Some of its compliance driven. It's kind of like a license to operate now where you have to you have to do stuff That's not necessarily this little positive culture building signal But the pull part is Is what does it cost not to do this in terms of customer requirements? In terms of where we're going in the years going ahead and I mentioned the financing bit as well And we've gone out with quite a few billion kroners in financing. That's sustainability linked that we have to document what we're doing on sustainability And we got As I said the best interest rates ever on our financing and best conditions And that's when that when that starts rolling, then you get a lot more attention and it's easier to do things But the difficult answer is as well. It also in big organizations. It takes time We've been doing this now for you know, 10 12 years working systematically with us And obviously making sure that the procurement directors only goal cannot be financial is really important making sure that the The property department understand that they have to understand biodiversity I mean, it's it's it's a process it takes time as well And all the other stuff that's being mentioned turn to the top management incentives all those structures And then grinding over time I mean you This is always one of those arguments where you say, okay, it costs something of course Today this morning we also talked about it is rather an investment that it costs but still When you look at productivity and sustainability Is this kind of a contradiction to say, okay, you're sustainable But of course productivity has to go down a bit your profitability is going down at the end of the day Because you have to invest more Or in the long run if you look at it like this, can it not be that sustainability is rather actually increasing your profitability? Because I mean, yes, the vehicles are more expensive But the maintenance is cheaper and many other things when we think about a route optimization and elements like this Yes, it is an investment. You have to make changes, but in the long run There are less trucks on the road and the routes are shorter and you need less A fewer drivers for example. So how is this relationship between sustainability and profitability? I think there is like two sides on the revenue side There is a chance for some kind of sustainability premium in Maybe in a short or medium term still in some aspects, but it's It's declining as everybody is going there on the cost side We are in a lucky situation in logistics that CO2 footprint and productivity in terms of operational efficiency on many cases match somehow So that what you said without productivity many of the cases that formerly have been Shown also makes a business like here that it's a cost a measure It's now shown as a sustainability measure because you're getting more efficient in your routing network and so on Still there will be things where you have to invest first and It takes time till this is done with a positive business case also in terms of monitoring wise and and then calculatorry, but With taking for example the e-fleet this is getting now more and more in that direction that there can also be shown A positive business case, but it also is very different across countries depending on the subsidization schemes of the different countries So I think you can't generalize it per se and and the government is doing also often Good job to help the environment to there to help also the companies getting this This step we're all working on Yeah, so a few on this question profitability and sustainability Just to build on what you you said, I mean we see now that we have a positive tco on on the light commercial vehicles electric And it's it's it's cheaper to have an electric vehicle than to have a diesel vehicle So that's like that's like a no-brainer, but it wasn't like that a few years ago So it's about being optimistic and it's about driving the change working with the industry working with the politicians driving in front And we spend a lot of time doing this Because we we see it going in the same direction after even larger and larger vehicles on the electric side as well So in some use cases for us an electric large truck is actually tco neutral So it's about taking that bigger responsibility and driving the agenda towards 2030 But but again, I mean it's it's about timing about how much do you invest when you invest and it's it's tricky Please James If I may just Build on that really I think it's really important to look at the narrow figures So looking at like for like replacements and That's absolutely what we need to do, but there is a broader business case that needs to be taken. So There's been referenced a couple of times the We need to attract young people into the sector and if you look at the statistics what they want is they want to work for A socially and environmentally responsible organization. So what's the cost of? That what's the benefit of that, you know, so that somehow fits into the calculation Similarly you have issues around reputation or risk What's the price of not doing it? I think we've heard that already. So so there is a That there's a kind of a whole range of considerations that make Feed into this being a good business decision And the narrow analysis needs to be done But I think it has to be set within the context of license to operate of the, you know, the value To investors and also the opportunity to secure external investments. So You know, we're seeing a huge amount of opportunities in terms of climate finance this Green bond example is is very interesting because it's cheap money effectively. So so again It's an opportunity for bringing in external investment from outside of the sector in many cases So there is this kind of broader business case, which is really important to capture It's of course being who we are on the stage it's it's difficult to disagree in this Situations it is about the license to operate And certainly some initial investments are needed Some extra extra money to be put in if you take renewable energy currently it is a bit more expensive However, I can bring an example from my again from my previous life in tech sector where we Made a pretty big wind energy deal And that was prior to the energy prices peaking So the company I worked for and then with was actually pretty happy with that five-year deal So this is an example of a very quick return and the example we brought here about route optimization, etc I guess there are many examples of quick returns as well But in general sustainability is a long-term game, right? So We all want this climate not to change terribly because then I mean there will be all sorts of scenarios and The least of them will be you know changing our infrastructure totally to to withstand the changed climate Situation and so on so forth So in it is certainly a longer term game, but there are some also short term gains. I think at least Yeah, I mean you you have you have all shown Several examples of what you're doing and of course one key element is the whole area of mobility So transformation of the fleets and so on but there is still this one issue that seems to be unsolved But which is a big one Where you have been talking briefly. I think Andreas you talked a bit about it as well It is the line hall So, I mean, where do you see that that is going? I mean for the short distances you have Many different kinds of solutions and with e-vehicles that all works very nicely But I mean looking at Norway for example, you have a big line hall to the north and How how how are we getting there? What can we expect? Are there solutions out there that are really promising to also solve this issue or That's a good question and I think Technology optimist and things are developing much faster than we thought One of the dilemmas in this work as well is is exactly what you're describing What kind of technology are you going to aim at and what we're hearing and we have had like a long and deep dialogue with with all the OEMs and all the truck manufacturers and all our suppliers, etc And and we are now luckily beginning to see Direction that's coming out of all of this and and the short answer is that that everything that can be battery electric should be battery electric And some of the even the heaviest duty trucks are being tested now on we're talking 60 ton trucks are being tested with battery electric Commercial viability is not there quite yet But we do see a temporary solution is the liquid biogas, which we have several large trucks in operation of already because that's It's viable. That's just a problem a matter of infrastructure availability in terms of filling Hydrogen we do believe that when you sort of get towards 2030 we're going to be having a small percentage of our heavy duty trucks using hydrogen The thing with hydrogen is it's it's very complicated But basically hydrogen I think is better suited to industrial stationary applications first first and foremost perhaps maritime But we do believe that that that hydrogen will be a part of the solution So the summary is battery electric almost everything Biobased fuel, whether it's hvo or gas is going to is going to reduce over time So I think when we get to 2030 we're going to be quite battery electric with a bit of hydrogen and some some hvo Still left. I think Next but medium long term 100 electric. Yeah, exactly when and the timing is going to be tricky to say but that's the the main direction Now we see That's a direction to question I'm seeing on top of building on you is on the national scale Then where does the energy come from on on the like in this Norway is different than it's in Austria And it's again different than in other countries. So um We we are strongly building in austria for example Renewable energy At that scale in austria building new wind parks and so on obviously we can't do do offshore wind parks in austria But there are different chances to generate new energy Still but if you put the Increased demand you need for electric vehicles and then on top of the the transport on On the line holes for us But also the other lorries that are driving around in austria that quite a few because we're transit country Then there's a lot of energy need and the question is then where does this come from? um And then you get in the border picture of is it again Nationally created you can in the question of where do where does the H2 come from if it is it's from austria or do we import it again? So there there's a national question on that and it's also the question and if you When you're building your own network now in the nordic to the north But you have to decide quite on the technology because you won't build two networks or three networks It's the same for us and then you have the interactions where you need Interaction also of the state what what's kind of the Perspective we are having there and where is In a platform built for a certain technology or not, but again last sentence is We are also seeing that the larger and larger vehicles are getting Payback in terms of electrification But still maybe that's not the the full picture as you also said that there will be maybe h2 as a second technology Or maybe a one that we didn't think about yet as innovation is brought Now let's maybe move away now from from the mobility question Let's move to another part, which of course is also a big Issue for all postal delivery companies. Let's talk about the resources like waste and packaging and circular economy I mean, I imagine you're all very active in that area as well How how do you ensure that with your customers you can reduce waste in whatever context? Who wants to take that question? I'm sure you're doing something right or can I can I take this here that nobody's doing anything? I know that you're doing something It takes time I guess it's it's all about nudging. It's the the more general also Term of nudging people towards the right or or different behaviors and so on so forth The same goes for packaging. We have our goal of of 50 percent of packaging being Reused recyclable or compostable sold by us then pretty soon And I think we can fulfill that because that we can control better that is about what we are selling it But if you take the whole Circle around what we do and the whole circle of e-commerce it it of course takes time Unfortunately coming from the Baltics. I I'm sad to say that If you look at different private consumer research in terms of, you know, what's the mentality around sustainability and sustainability choices, you know, how much do you discuss them? How much do you employ them actually? It is It is not in a very good place yet So those markets have yet a way to go and I guess, you know, all sorts of structural issues like To war to do anything have contributed to maybe those issues being sometimes less important in households But I guess slowly but steadily the consumer behavior is also changing So what we can do is still there also the communication and nodging by By what we offer and then what we engage people to and so on So we are certainly working with that, but it will take time When you said 50 50 percent as a goal As a goal, we are not there yet. But goal when do you have that also defined? We are currently actually discussing. I think it will be 27. So it will be pretty pretty close Okay, Andrea. So we're having multiple fronts like you have on the mail side obviously They work with the large senders that are using still a lot of Paper to work together to use recyclable paper and they are all doing similar programs And they're all getting there themselves because they want to have it But then on the leaflet side and Austria is still a large leaflet market Um, there we work actively together to get like also certifications for pro that the leaflet market is green In terms of what the input factors are used and that you really push for Good solutions there as well. And then you have the the whole e-commerce side with parcel and there, I mean It has been presented here also that there's a flagship project. We are doing is this post loop where we integrate Recycle packaging in in a solution. Why you basically reuse a one package five to ten times or even more You basically receive the package then you fold it back together and you return it through the mail flow Which is very interesting because as postal operators, we have the the post Boxes and mailboxes around and this is a very convenient way to return packaging because it's very close to the customers And then you would We fulfill this either with the customer in our locations and Introduce it again into the cycle So this is one way where we want to go to really get down This or get up the recycling effort there apart from using obviously Recycle material for the packaging and not using plastic and and and stuff like that in in the cycle And most of the case I would say that that the customers the p2p customers We are having and the ones that have the large volume there themselves interested in Being sustainable and and we're working on the same in the same boat there and and it's a good cooperation Yeah, well then it's a branding question exactly. So Colin Yeah, not to repeat all those actions that you described and we're doing all those, you know Less air, you know more recycled materials reusable stuff and that but you know We have one of our largest customers is a big Swedish company that makes a lot of furniture and also meatballs And and they have Circularity very high up on the agenda And that's one example. We have several customers So if you work in the electronics industry and the clothing industry fast meat consumer goods You're getting smacked in the face by a lot of regulations So we're in discussions with them. How can how can we help them and it's more about just facilitating returns? I think it's looking at marketplaces platforms So an example that we've worked on is we've invested in a used clothing Platform which is an app which has become very popular in a way We are on the ownership side, but we also make sure that you know, we get the volumes in So there's there's a business part there as well. So looking at digital platforms that facilitate The circular regulations are coming in for our customers I think is is an interesting area opportunity for us going forward, which we're discussing now in the leadership group James So I was delighted to hear Colin you mentioned the circular economy and this platform because You know, if I'm going to be on message here, what I was talking about was Trying to look at how we can generate revenue from offering sustainability services That's a perfect example. You know, this is a business opportunity And one of the areas that we're working on now trying to develop some guidance at the upu relates to e-waste So we've probably all got a mobile phone sitting At home somewhere that we don't use anymore, but we don't want to throw away for some reason And one of the reasons I suspect that people aren't recycling their mobile phones is because they're worried about their Private information being perhaps Taken and used against them somehow. So who better to Recycle that than a trusted Friendly local post postman or postwoman We have this trust infrastructure that I was talking about we have we are We are responsible for people's private information every time we deliver a letter So there's a huge potential there for Reverse logistics for recycling for collecting these items from people's homes Partnering with organizations that will guarantee that they'll wipe the data And then we'll recycle it There's revenue there in all sorts of ways including providing summary data to Organizations that are national and a regional level that want to put in place recycling They want to know what's the volume of mobile phones that exist Let's say or laptops or whatever So they so this this kind of selling of the data not people's private data But data about the level of waste that's being generated. These are the kind of things that Um Yeah, there's business opportunities there. So you're doing something good. You're contributing to the circular economy And helping other sectors deal with their pressing issues and we've been in consultation with some key players on that exact Question, how can we help you to Resolve some of the challenges and how can we take the opportunities for the postal sector? But catching you said before You're a bit disappointed about the market uptake I mean we have heard of course there are the big customers to send us for them It's a branding issue and they want of course to show we are sustainable and we offer you this product But if the if the buyers don't opt into it if they don't if they don't choose the option Yes, I want a reusable packaging that I can return and that can then be reused. I don't know 10 times 50 times or whatever times How can we create this awareness? How can we educate the the the consumers? To opt in to choose these options Revert back to continuous and consistent communication, I guess about the benefits about the impacts. I think this example of um Example of different devices from laptops to phones or or anything else. It's a very valid example Because that is something everybody can relate to. I'm pretty sure everybody in this audience has many different devices with them and so on We know that the electronic devices have a pretty big impact or a footprint impact on environment and 80 percent About 80 percent comes from their production. So it's all about prolonging the life cycle which is then about the circularity and then different phases in phases in it up to a Responsible disposal and so on so forth. So I guess We just need to bring different examples that people can relate to some, you know Loudly speaking facts and so on so forth. But I think in general like more philosophically, but also behaviorally I think we are now witnessing some of the controversial trends and one of them is that There is and I've seen research around that It's it's the decreasing agency in people Because there are so many structural problems around us and one of them is climate change everybody probably now kind of knows and Admits that this is ongoing, but it seems like just too much to to deal with And then you add to its pandemics and then wars and then everything else happening So what the research again in private customers case shows that people Tend to even young people for instance in the Nordics who used to be like the ones the Fridays for future type of forerunners They're saying that no, I'm buying fast fashion again. I want to you know Dedicate time to myself. I want to be happy. I'm not able to deal with the challenges that are too big to deal with so Like decreasing agency in people is is a real problem on the other hand We have all this in european context As as mentioned before we have all this reporting all this regulatory environment coming towards us So, I mean inevitably this will become more and more important issue for for all sorts of stakeholders From investors to end users and so on so the importance the knowledge the awareness the you know ability of businesses to To evaluate their business from es and g perspective will definitely increase and will be more and more important So there are like different trends ongoing. It's going to be interesting to see where we land But all in all of course we continue to increase the awareness and then hopefully Be better in in our choices also as consumers I mean andres you just introduced reusable packaging in a in a in a grand scale How do you ensure that people come on board? How what is your strategy in in making them enthusiastic About about this new packaging solution. Well, it's together with the with the ones of the e-commerce shops in the end so that the They have the they want to have the the people using them and they are thinking about incentivization options to have that But was not always the case sometimes We're still building on on actually the end consumer wanting to be a part of the of the green Movement and that they accept that they have this hurdle of bringing it back So the question is what is the incentive there? And do you want to give them or share some of the benefits kind of thing? But it's actually something we've been seeing also in the past the the pressure from the end consumer is very indirect So they they want to build that from a brand that is green and feels green But if you really go down the road and say like are you would you pay x year or more? If If this is green and this is not green then the decision is not so clear anymore and and and Many studies show that it's probably not the green one that is chosen So the capital markets the b2b customers are having this stronger pressure currently Then the direct end consumer sometimes is but I wouldn't Say that there's no pressure But it's an indirect one and it's not something that is for the payment stream or for them for the money stream from them at least So in the end to to make it really something that flies and is successful It mustn't cost more For the end consumer Not a lot more It's a very indirect one So if the if the brand that has in the whole image of the brand Also green and that's how they differentiate themselves And that's why they're selling more products and that's why these products are also green And that's why they also can afford a green delivery And that's the way that the end consumers then paying indirectly Because they choose this shop than the other but then again as you just said In terms of in times of economic need you may choose Other brands then because something is just cheaper there and and not buy from buy from there Some really basic things are you know to make it really simple for the consumers I think what works in our case for instance pretty well is that we have Reusable packaging available in post offices So you can leave your old package or you can take something if you want to wrap it up And it's it reusable so that is kind of easy and simple Yeah, that's for free you can buy of course also like really nice reusable packaging But there's also a place where you can swap so to say so you have you know you open your package You receive a package you open it you leave it or or you want to wrap the package and there's something so Something like that works And then yeah, it cannot be terribly more expensive than the alternative choices I think that would be a good start Yeah, just to build on what's been said a few days ago The CEO of the second largest airline in Norway had a big headline in the media saying Our customers are lying to us Because they've done some analysis saying that you know, we will pay for a greener flying service less carbon emission etc But the statistics show that they don't so there is an option to do it But they just don't even though it doesn't cost much more to compensate for you know floods and a couple of reflections I've had is Consumer engagement around this topic has never been a real driver for us It's obviously more the B2B situation And I think greenwashing is also an important part of this. It's quite complicated for a normal person to understand What does it mean if you plant trees? What does it mean if you buy, you know climate quotes or whatever? I mean, it's how do you compensate? It's a very complicated issue And and as as has been said, I think there's a certain amount of exhaustion as well about climate change and the This this feeling of hopelessness. So I think we just need to as companies take the responsibility as much as we can Uh, you know for our own sakes With all the other stakeholders that are driving this and not necessarily the consumers that's never been an issue for us And not necessarily trust the consumers and what they say not always at least James to have a few on that as well. Yeah, um, well, I would I would trust their uh responses So, you know irrespective of what they say if there's a product Let's say we're a green option. That's um, not easy to use or it's not clear what it's what the benefits are Or if it doesn't fit, um aligned with their values, then they won't use it. So I think We need to perhaps I mean it's an interesting question for You know psychologists and social scientists to actually kind of engage Maybe we should be engaging in that respect to say You know, what is it that people actually want, you know, because I I do believe there's a huge green market There's a huge amount of green consumers there But perhaps sometimes those products and services are not quite aligned with their values and and uh, they may not tell you directly why So so I think there's a big opportunity, but perhaps it's just the subtlety of trying to untangle That motivation from what people say because obviously what people say and what people do are not always completely aligned um, so I think there's yeah, there's an interesting piece of work that can be done there and I think uh, You're mentioning about research. I think we should be engaging with the research community a lot There's a lot of researchers out there and a lot of interesting work. So Perfect The time is over. We have to stop here It's uh, it's 1645 and I've promised that we'll be on time There is nowhere I can go over it But please give a big applause to our panel here for this last session And to close this year's upu world leaders forum. I invite the director general of the upu To do the official closing. Please mr. Matochi Mel we can go down Thank you very much doctor moderator so A distinguished panelist Dear guest colleagues and friends Good afternoon It is my sincere pleasure to join you in my first able upu world leaders forum I extend my Thanks to you can I may deal Hold their strong support in organizing this However upu event within post and parcel export Throughout the past two days You have had a broad range of perspectives from postal decision makers They have painted a picture of what the future could look like and Define the strategies that we need to follow in order to get there Thank you again to all the panelists for your very very constructive advice and suggestions Now it is clear that the making up of our business is changing We must keep the customer front of mind And strengthening the quality of service provided throughout the physical and digital networks While there is no one size fits all diversification strategy So I believe the upu has the tools to help post Find tailored solutions forums one of the main focal point is sustainability Sustainability as a topic That has gained enormous momentum Strong sustainability performance benefits operational performance and Can attract talent to our operations It provides an opportunity for us to position the postal network as a key partner for government UN agencies and NGOs To meet their own sustainable goals We should not ignore these opportunities Concerning the sustainability as you probably know and also someone mentioned Thanks to your cooperation and the external Congress Even just before three weeks ago We Fortunately the every member countries agreed to the initiative so-called green package It is actually thanks to the other member countries for kind understanding And but unfortunately It should be implemented only by voluntary contributions But today I know there are so many operators keen to the very Climate actions. So I believe very soon So many postal operators kindly voluntary contribute to this fund and will the upu international bureau will move forward this initiative very soon, I hope and To build to a sustainable future for ourselves And logistics and cross border e-commerce. We must also work on our data The upu supports this through its global postal model its compliance project and the move towards paper-free services We are also supporting the development of regional transport hubs to improve global connectivity This includes cooperation with wider postal sector players Today also We discussed as a really this very good substantial discussion for trust The trust of customers has long been one of our most precious asset Much of this trust has been built upon And generations of face-to-face Contact with postal employees No doubt the sector moves deeper into the digital world However, it is vital that we maintain this trust At the same time the upu has established all the regulations standards Technological solutions and networks to strengthen the digital trust And the security of its members I would like to thank of all of you for the open honest conversations and really very very active discussions And that took place during this forum So it has become an essential platform For postal and logistic readers from all continent and market to share ideas and strategies I trust that these discussions have also brought each of you many opportunities for collaborations I hope you will join us again next year as you know next year's 150 anniversary of upu I hope the next three years forum will be something more special than this year. Thank you very much for your kind attention