 Hi everybody and welcome to the visible visionaries if you're here you have interest in being visible for your book for your business for your being. And it also means that your visionary you have definitely a mission and a purpose. And it's generally meant to increase the quality of life here on this revolving planet that we currently call earth. And yeah, you know, most of us feel very, very called and part of our mission and getting our message out there, being more bold being more visible has included a book and other things. Now, the thing that we all know is, we are not experts at everything nor were we ever meant to be, even though at times, as an entrepreneur, it very much feels like there are so many components to figure out and how do you pick and choose what you're supposed to do. But there is one bottom line and all of that and that is, we can feel the pain when we put together all this amazing stuff. But it's not getting out there it's not getting in the right hands it's not getting the attention to people it should. And I, I heard something recently and I think it's really apropos and I'll see if I can re express it correctly, which is you are putting a lot of stuff out there like pasta on the wall, and all you're kind of doing is getting likes. It doesn't mean that you have clients. Right, you just have people who are like going, you know, good on you at a boy at a girl, but they're really not engaged and they're not taking action and we all want the majority of those who are connected with us to take action so that's why I brought the guest here. Visible visionaries is an ongoing book writing membership, and the clients learn we get together twice a month live and y'all learn how to write your book, make it a page turner, how to put together everything inside from idea and inception to self publishing. And this is my area of expertise that and also how to be interviewed because we need that piece to also become very visible. So I brought a board today, someone I've known for 1112 years, at least Chris Van Buren, and he's a really well known recognized expert in his field and what I really love about Chris is that he doesn't just show you as an expert these things he does these things. He is an author and in fact he just engaged in his own book launch so it's very exciting to see an expert bridging both worlds as a really well known teacher but a doer as well in their own life. Another co op is what Chris Van Buren runs it's a specialty to help authors promote and build a mailing list, and two months ago we had the book literary agent and publisher Bill Gladstone here that was amazing. I'm also releasing his interview on my podcast which was separate. We went even deeper, and he says over and over, what does he look for when he takes on an author, you could have the greatest book in the world but if you don't have a significant database, he won't look. And that is not only true for him I can tell you, as an author, and also someone in this business, same. You must have this so this is being recorded. We're going to discuss several topics, and then we will open things up at the end for questions so if you couldn't get yourself until we get to the end that would be awesome. So Chris, first I just want to say, welcome to the visible visionaries. Thank you. Great to be here. Hello everyone. Good to see you all. Excellent. So I'm going to start out with just sort of generalizations about the importance of email list building versus social media. What's the importance are they both important. And can you talk a little bit about the difference. Sure. Yes, I get that question a lot. It's important. All all media, all audiences that you can build are important, but it, but it's also important to understand the differences and make your priorities about them and around them. I don't necessarily say that building an email database is always better for everyone than social media but what I will say though is that there are differences in how they perform. This is just a fact you know statistical facts. Email databases will will give you. The statistics that they will perform up to 20 times better than a social media following. So an email list of 10,000 people would be equivalent to, what is that 20 times that 200,000 people in social media following. Now, that means as in terms of the actual results you get the actual conversions and the clicks and the engagement. But it's not surprising. An email databases people who have chosen to be in your community receive your emails, they, they therefore trust you, they're on your list, they stay on your list, you know, they have the option to opt out right to unsubscribe so if they're if they haven't done that. It's because of, you know, they want what you have. They're listening to you. Obviously that counts for a lot and email does tend to be more direct marketing. So in, and this has been around since before the internet that this idea of direct versus indirect marketing. In the old days before the internet direct marketing meant sending mail out to people. Nowadays on the internet there's a, there are finer lines between what actually is direct or indirect. And it's pretty clear that social media followings are indirect. So you're putting out content indirect means you're putting out content, and you're hoping somebody sees it, and you're hoping they'll do something when they see it. Whereas an email being sent directly to someone's inbox is considered direct, you're getting right into that person's inbox. Sure, you don't know if they're going to open it. You can't click on something if they open it. But in the scope of marketing, that's considered more direct than say social media. Now, even more indirect than social media would be like online advertising, like putting an ad out on on Facebook or somebody else's website. That's extremely indirect. You don't even know who's going to see the ad much less act on the ad. Now, that's not to say that all indirect marketing is bad. Not at all. In fact, indirect marketing has a very profound purpose, and it tends to be around brand building. So the tend to, it tends to be used by bigger companies that really just want you to recognize their brand more. You don't care as much that you're clicking on something right then and there. You know, they just want, you know, you remember Coca Cola, you know, or, or, you know, whatever the, you know, whatever the insurance got here. What's the insurance company. I've already forgotten. Geico. They want that mind share. And so indirect marketing like advertising and social media does tend to work better really well for that kind of marketing. For the rest of us who need conversion, you know, we're counting on that where, you know, we're bootstrapping, we're looking at conversion rates where we're, you know, we don't have massive budgets just to get mind share. We're probably going to lean more toward direct marketing. You know, those types of options and email list building is more direct you're going to get 20 times more results from an email list. Well, a well manicured email list than you would from a social media following. Okay, that brings up two things. So the first is, I really concur because especially right now with Instagram, where you cannot put hyperlinks and this thing, you know, I'm very visible there right now for obvious reasons. And as a lot of gain, but yeah, no hyperlinks. And also the best you can do is put in your bio this linked tree. Right. And so for those who don't know, you know, just check out my Instagram and the fact I know some of you already connected with me there if you're not connected with me there. If you're not a bio, that's actually the hottest thing to do little emoji, and a few words about who you are and what you do. Very kitschy. And then at the end you have a link tree you can click on mine and see what it looks like. And what it is that is the way to get a hyperlinks, I feel like unless you're really like committed to someone, you're not going to get much conversion. I'm going to talk about a well manicured database email list. Man, is this a hot topic, because the truth is, I, I know I unsubscribe a lot. And it is nothing often to do with how awesome the person or company is, I am just email overwhelmed. And how do we groom people. I'm not I can tell you right now I'm not that person is going to write a personal blog about the latest. I don't know. Experience I had that you know took me the depths of my being in fact, I may be that person in real life but I don't have the patients to sit there and write that. How can we engage and connect and get people to say I want to still be on your list. I may even recommend it to other people. Well there are different philosophies. There's not just one answer. And, and there's validity to all of them I think. So for example on one hand. There's validity. Some people will say and there's validity to this that that it doesn't matter just if you over if you over email your list. Okay, that's okay because you're going to get more action out of the people who do. Right. Now that's going to burn what we call burning through your list a little more. So you're going to get a lot more opt outs but the people but you also will get more action from the people who are interested. There's a lot on political campaigns, they'll email the crap out of you, and they don't care that you're up that that x% are opting out because they want action from the few that are going to do something. So if that's the philosophy and that's what you want and you know that that's what you want that then that's the option to use right. So most people in our business, meaning the body mind spirit, you know, self help kind of business personal and professional development kind of business that's not what they want. They want to keep people in. They want to keep people who are maybe in maybe out because down the road they might be in right you don't want them to opt out now you don't want to turn them off because you know a month two months three months from now you might have something that interests them. So that's more of the philosophy for those kinds of businesses, which is probably most of us in which case you don't want to do that you don't want to over over mail. You want to be very careful about how often you mail you want to kind of measure the results. My sort of, you know rule of thumb, if you will, is probably no less than once a month and probably no more than once a week. Unless you have something special going on, then you can do more than once a week for that time period. So if you have a launch going on you can mail every day during the launch but then you stop, you know, and go back to your, to your once a week or twice a month. So no less than once a month no more than once a week as your normal flow. I personally, we generally do twice a month for our mailings but we've been going to once a week because it's just been super busy and I try I really try not to do more than once a week for my list. I like those boundaries that's helpful. And those who are marketing a book, a film, a product, etc. I don't know if it's the same across the board you can speak to that. What's the most important thing for us to know when we are marketing or even our coaching business or teaching business or book. Yeah, that's, that's the $10,000 question actually. There is something there is the most important thing and I'm glad you asked that because a lot of people miss this it's it is clearly by far the single most important thing for all of us to nail. And that is your unique value proposition. You've got to nail it, and you've got to make it you've got to articulate it clearly in your messaging. That's the back cover of your book. That's your social media. That's the first few phrases on your website or your book page. That's some of the things you say when you're on the air is you want to repeat those same unique value proposition messages, and you'll probably have several different ways of saying it. Depending on who you're talking to. And you might you know depending on how broad your audience is. You will probably have a few ways that you say it. But being clear on how you do that and being clear on what it is right. A lot of people, the thing about defining and clarifying your unique value proposition is sometimes we're the worst person to do our own. Right, it's like editing your own book. It's, it's sometimes the hardest thing you need somebody from the outside to sort of help you see it sometimes. Because we're so close to it because a lot of times what ends up being your unique value proposition is you. Right is your personality is something about you yourself. It's not about what you're teaching. It's not about, you know, the way you're teaching it necessarily and sometimes it is. But, you know, 90 or 70 80% of the time, it's really about you, how you deliver it, what your personal experiences are, how you interact with the audience, whether you're funny or serious or shy or outgoing. These are all personality traits that are very important to to fully be and and fully integrate into your unique value proposition. Some people will respond better to you if you're shy. I like that some people will respond better to you because of that so be that if that's who you are. And if it if it is part of your unique value. Some people respond better to other personality types it's, it's important that you let people know what your unique value is, if you have had experiences in your life, even bad ones if you failed at things. That's a unique value proposition. I've tried this 100 times and failed 99 of them. Right. That's a really powerful thing to say. People will want to hear that they're going to value that right. Or you had some certain kind of training, you know, I'm from Harvard Medical School I have a degree in that that's that's a powerful unique value proposition. So evaluate all the things that could could go into your UVP. And then you want to articulate it in everything you do. Well, I find this really interesting and I'll tell you why because everything you just said is how I coach my clients how to write their bios. People get, oh, I don't know where to start with, you know, first sentence, palmy, like, but tell me exactly who you are and what you do. That's what that's all I want to know. And then let me know your fabulousness. Have you been in magazines shared the stage with much like you said if you've gone to Yale or Harvard, have you received the words have you, you know, rags to riches. I mean, that kind of stuff is so huge. So I love what you share because it's so easy to repurpose. So here's the trick. Write down a list of the things you hate about about your industry. I hate it when people teach this or that or the other what you guess what, that's part of why you do it differently. Right, so write that down and put that out there. I don't like here one. I'll give you an example for me. I always pushed back against marketing people who, and I still, I still do. I used to really articulate this a lot in my uvp is marketing people that would basically tell you, this is how I made my millions of dollars follow my footsteps do it do what I did. And I say, I used to hate that I would say, it may have worked for you but it won't work for them because there's so many differences between you and the other people. Maybe you're good on the air and they're not maybe you know technology and they don't I mean there's a million reasons why it might not work for the next person, even if they follow exactly the formula that you did, or that that, you know that that guru did. So I used to like hate that and push against that and I would put that in my on my page. Marketing is not a one size fits all equation, I would say that that was my thing, right, because I hated that. So, fine. Yes, the greatest example of this Chris, I think it's in the weight loss and health industry, where you see someone I suddenly got buffed and this is what I did or I suddenly lost weight nor I got healthy and I, and it's like these crazy ass concoction somebody put together that for some reason, you know, God bless it work for you, but for so many people suffering out there paying paying paying. It's not healthy it doesn't work and I've also been very triggered by that too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so what triggers you about your industry and other people could be part of your unique value, because it top because it demonstrates what you do differently and why. And that's important. Yeah, so many so much in the unique value proposition. Also remember your personality traits and make a list what you hate your industry and to know this is probably what you excel at giving other people. This is that's a great secret. And don't forget to write down what you've succeeded at and what you failed at, because those are all powerful. What you succeeded at and what you failed at beautiful. And also just to reiterate you mentioned about editing. Thank you so much because I try to explain to all my clients in my classes and otherwise like if you don't have a book professionally edited, you know, it's crazy, like, I can't tell you I just worked with a world class dog training this weekend with my dog this guy is amazing. And when we were done. He, he gave me all this awesome swag right he has his great merch is great T shirt with his logo socks with his logo, you know dog me this with his logos all beautiful many very sheepishly said here's my first book but I'm so embarrassed to tell you about all the typos and it's like dude. So you can still hire an editor and relaunch it you know, but do it right if you're going to be put all that effort into a book, you must make sure it's professional going out there. Especially if you've decided to self publish, which is a viable option, you know, for various reasons. It's easy to slack off on certain things when you're self publishing and getting an editor is one of them, and getting a professional designer is another don't put out a book that doesn't look professional. You don't bother doing that. Get it get it professionally designed so that it's impressive. That's part of what a book is for is to impress. So, an editor and a designer, I would, I would say, editor and designer. Okay, so ROI strategies for authors, how and I'm so big on this in my life, literally. I'm at a point where when people come to me and say, well, can I interview this. Literally I look at my time, my energy, my attention span, and I look at their show and say, is this worth the effort because I don't need anything else in my resume. And that is how it is with everything I'm invited to engage in I always feel blessed, but I really measure just a finite amount of me. I also have my own desires and wishes. So getting a return on investment at ROI is so important. What are the strategies for authors who really want to streamline this to success. Again, there's a couple answers to that. It's not just a one again is really not a one size fits all it depends on your goals. And it depends on what kind of traffic you're getting. And what you're trying to do with that traffic. Now, if, if the goal is and maybe maybe most of us here could agree. I want to bring people in to my mailing list so that I can sell them my product or service coaching product or online course, or something along those lines a digital product that they'll buy online. That's very common. Okay, so that's a very common one. It's not the only goal and situation but you still have to look at well where's the traffic coming from. If it's coming from an interview, you know, a podcast interview, it's going to behave in a certain way differently than if it's coming from somebody's mailing list that's mailing for you. Generally a mailing list when you, when you promote to a mailing list, you want, you want to grab as many opt-ins you want to grab as many of those email addresses as you can, and you want to bring them into your opt-in funnel. You know, you've probably heard that term. So you basically offering them a freebie of some sort, something very compelling. Get my five tips, you know, five easy tips to, you know, live a better life, whatever it is. And, and you want that to be as compelling as possible to get as many sign ups as possible because then you have multiple opportunities. Now they're on your mailing list. So you have multiple opportunities to get them to the next day. Right. And that could be through your funnel, through your nurturing program. It can be, we can talk about that. If it's a podcast, you can still say on your podcast, hey, I want everybody who's listening in to get my free five tips thing. And that's a good thing to do. But a podcast can also be kind of like a web webinar. Right. And webinars are generally sales tools. Right. So you drive sometimes people use podcasts to drive people directly to the sale. Right. So they'll direct them directly to the sales page. So you have your sales page as part of the of the process, right. If you're an email database blast, you don't send them right to the sales page. You send them to your freebie and then you eventually get them to your sales page. When you're on a podcast, you might send them straight to the sales page because they may be convinced about who you are and what they want, just from the podcast interview. Let me ask you a question here. I want to take a respite. I know that there's several people here who also have their own podcast. So on, on their behalf, I want to ask, well, let's say they're pitching. This podcast, it seems like they've gotten engaged audience and they direct people and it's something germane to what they're talking about anyway. But let's say they don't see engagement. There's no clicks. Maybe for free gift here and there. So what does that mean. Yeah, that's not uncommon. But podcasts have more engaged audiences and others. A lot of times it's because people are listening in their car, or they're listening, you know, while they're working out or it's very much an audio only, often. Or sometimes they're listening. If you put your podcast on YouTube, they might be listening on YouTube. They're not necessarily in the place where they're engaging online right clicking on things and checking them out. That's just the nature of that of that. Yeah, it's, I don't know that there's a lot you can do to get around that other than to, to be memorable. And I know, you know, Debbie teaches this. So this is important to be to be memorable and have a an engaging offer. You know, the podcast ahead of time, like what works what doesn't, you know, how much should you pitch or how little should you pitch based on, you know, the podcast or you should know that before you go into it I know Debbie teaches this to get to know the podcast first. So you know, you know, and if it turns out it's a podcast that doesn't like you to pitch that much. So it's not going to be like a webinar. And I'd say offer a freebie. Say, you know, hey everybody is listening on you know because you're on because you're listening right now I've got a freebie for you. Just go to my website. www.myname.com slash gift and get my gift. Like that's easy to remember. Right. So that's your default position, I guess you could say, if you're not sure otherwise do that. Right. If you know that you can pitch. If you know that you can make it kind of like a webinar in a sense where you, you give some information some good quality information but you also pitch a little bit of what you're doing you know how to go farther than that with you. Then you could consider sending people directly to your sales page from the podcast. In essence it would be like a webinar. What the same thing you would do in a webinar you would do on that podcast, if, again, if the podcast is an appropriate place to do that. Yeah, and Devin was just posting, be sure to ask the host, and also very good point you can offer to them to become an affiliate and I will tell you as a 14 year radio person and podcaster. It's very rare, a guest comes on and gives their website or gift and says, Oh, and by the way, should I get a sale. So of course I always teach you know when you move the needle for somebody as a podcaster. If you're a guest, cinema, thank you, right at the very least cinema Starbucks card. You know, I'm looking at artwork that I've received big geodes that people have, you know, because something has happened on my show for them I think it's really important to recognize someone has taken their well nurtured audience for you and your book and all of that at the very least always send a thank you and, and even, you know, be sure to promote the podcast that you're on promoted to your, at least your social media, so that everybody can see it. And if you have an email database, let them know hey I'm going to be on this podcast on Friday, you know whatever at this time come come see me. The podcaster appreciates it. Your people will appreciate it you're going to talk about something interesting. And it does make a difference. Some, some podcasts require it or, or imply, you know, that it's kind of necessary. I even went so far one time I got on a podcast through a friend of a friend. I felt it was a good enough opportunity I actually boosted the post that I put on my social media actually in other words I paid to boost the post, and I paid I paid Facebook right to get it out to more people. It only cost me like 100 bucks, but you know it was a big deal. It's a big deal to do that it's a big extra step. Right, so it's something worth considering you can, you can boost up the boosting is so simple. You can spend $20 and boost it just a little bit. I mean it's very flexible that way. So something to consider. And most of us have Google alerts on our name. So trust me, when my guests do co synergize meaning that they also cross promote the show I do a lion share out there. If someone will meet me at least halfway and a little more. I see, I see exactly what's going on and what someone's doing and we're more apt to invite them on again or promote them to someone else who has a great show or, you know, other people. So, and also you know it's good karma for both of us we both win your audience meets mine my audience meets yours. I'm going to add one other little layer layer to that same question. If you do send people to a sale. Make it a compelling sale, make it. You should hopefully you have low, medium and high price items in your ecosystem. And if you don't hopefully you're working on that right so you have a little of all of it. And you want to maybe start with your low priced items depending on how low that is. If you're going to sell a direct say direct to sale without people being in your mailing on your mailing list, hearing from you regularly, you can drive people to higher price ticket items on that because they're, they're on your mailing list they're part of your community they're listening to you all the time you can you can gradually build them up to higher ticket items. If you're just on somebody's podcast and you decide you're going to go direct to a sale. So I'm going to start with low priced items first and let people build up from there. Much more likely people will purchase something easier to pay for than than not. There are some exceptions there's always exceptions but that's a good general rule. And you mentioned earlier nurturing program I've never heard those words what does that mean. What's your nurturing campaign. Basically, when I say that I mean emails that you send out live meaning they're not free created and set up in an auto responder. They're nurturing their nurturing emails that you send out twice a month or months a week to keep people interested in what you do and share knowledge with people. You know there's an arc to that. There's an arc to those nurturing emails, and they are there to nurture your audience. So they stay in and stay interested. So that when you do have something to sell, you know down the road. They're, they're in, you know they want to hear about it, you know and you can announce it like hey I, I'm so happy to announce my new book or my new course, and they'll listen to you because you've been nurturing them all this time. So and I call those live because you're not writing them ahead of time and then putting them in an auto responder, which, which is fine to do, but, but not those nurturing emails those are your regular emails that you write, you know, every, every week or couple weeks. Okay, interesting. You know, you talk Chris about the importance of starting to see our own brand as an ecosystem of interacting components. Can you give an example of what that means. Yeah, I do. I talk about it in terms of ecosystem all the time, especially to book authors, right, because book authors. Maybe 60% of the ones I talked to really already have an ecosystem. So it's good to think of what you're doing as an ecosystem. And then the other 30 to 40% aren't thinking of it that way and should, should be. And what that means is you know it's not just about the book. It's about all the things you do in and around that book that is the ecosystem of your unique value proposition. And so if your unique value proposition is, you know, I teach, you know, struggling entrepreneurs, you know how to get over stress in my unique way. Okay. So you have a book on that but you might also have a course where you might also have a mastermind group that's live or you might also have a little low price, you know, mini course you might so there's all these different components of an ecosystem. And I could go through and list some of the things that might be in an ecosystem. But I wouldn't want you to think you have to have all of these necessarily you'd want to pick the right ones for various reasons. One reason is what do you what turns you on what do you want to do, you know, another reason is what is your goal what are you trying to accomplish and what is the campaign you're using to get there. For example, there's a, there's an item called a tripwire product which is a very low priced product, right, it's almost like a freebie but you charge a little for it, right. So something you might have used as a freebie, you could use as a tripwire and you charge like $499 or $3, you know, or, you know, under $14 right so it's a it's an impulse buy kind of thing. You may or may not want a tripwire. It depends on your funnel it depends on what you're doing right it's it's not necessarily part of your ecosystem. But if your funnel. You know, lends itself to having one then you then you want one you want to identify it you want to price it and have people buy it. Here's one reason why you might want one. If you're using Facebook ads, or any ads. Most people use Facebook and Instagram ads to drive traffic. A lot of people use it this low priced, you know $7 $4 product to pay for the ads. They basically are just trying to break even off of the tripwire product. If you just get people to, you know, sign up for their freebie, and then buy the little $4 product, you know, at enough of a clip that they basically pick cover the cost of the ads. Then they're basically getting people into their mailing list for free, because it's covering the cost of the ads. That's a genius strategy, if you can make that work if you can if your tripwire. You can get the tripwire to pay for the cost of the ads. It's a great strategy to try for. And that's a good reason to have a tripwire product in your in your system we did this for Bill Gladstone, who was, you know, with you a few weeks ago, we did this with his product he's got a publishing program. It's like 129 dollars but we did a little tripwire, which is the book blueprint. And it was $14. We got a very and for the ads we actually got a very high uptake on the book blueprint. We were like, pretty excited like this is looking good turned out, none of the book blueprint buyers went on to buy the product. They just stopped at the book blueprint. Wow. So we, we learned something from that right so we had success with the tripwire, but it didn't lead to what we really wanted, which was we really just wanted that to be for the ads so that, and then some of those people would go on to purchase. But that wasn't happening. So we had we retold it we, you know, we learned from it and we changed it. That's inevitable. Yeah, that's a great example in very interesting and makes you feel very humble when you know even even someone like Bill Gladstone right dot dot dot. This can happen too. Part of the reason I think is that the book blueprint was so good in a way that people didn't really need more. They didn't feel like they needed to get the full product like that book blueprint is keeping me pretty busy, like it's a pretty cool thing. So I think we overdid it we over delivered in a way and that's, that's something you want to be careful not to do in your freebies or your tripwires. Beautiful. Yes. I've on occasion had a book client or a bestseller book client come to me. And they're like, I have this 400 to 600 page book and but you know they're giving everything away and it's like darling, you could split that into a two book series or three book series, and we can meter this out to great success on your behalf. And then it's very digestible no one let well, I won't speak for everybody I'll speak for myself, I don't like to go to a meal and stuff myself, I feel terrible the whole experience wasn't good. But if I eat just enough that I was savoring and enjoying and ingesting it's beautiful. I think it's the same way with information whether we're teaching a webinar, a class, writing a book being interviewed, you cannot give everything away people don't have the capacity. But if you give just so much actually causes us to be very engaged with you and desirous of more. Yeah, agreed. It's probably the number one mistake that I see authors making is they over deliver on certain things. Right, right, because you think I'm writing a great book if you're like, blah. That's where a coach comes in. So I want to talk about for people who most of the people here have written a book. Some of them are on their way almost publishing, but but these are all book people. And I want to talk about because times have changed right after everything we've just all been through in the last fascinating year. I know I have seen the book industry change I've seen the amount of authors popping up everyone and it's time to write a book. It's a beautiful thing. So also, I feel marketing has changed because we're so inundated. What are the best strategies you know about Chris for people to really get a run for their money and meaning that what they implement really works. Obviously they could hire. I just want to say this so it's clear they could hire someone like me. I do the best seller book launch. However, I also feel like it's powerful. I'll I'm going to do what I guarantee I do that's that. But if but if an author takes initiative super fun and a lot can be created. Then there are those maybe who don't want to hire myself to do it and they want to do it on their own so I'm here because I know you're an author to what really works. A lot of things can work. One of the couple things that are sort of ubiquitous or, you know, given you need to do is you need to have a freebie, at least one that is very compelling. So that you can drive people to that to get into your mailing list and don't don't offer a newsletter. Nobody wants to sign up for somebody's newsletter. It's a chapter from your book that's never work design a freebie to be a freebie to stand alone to give one little nugget of value that's really like an aha like wow, that was great. This is the response you want from people. Wow, that was great. What else does she have. What else does he have. That's the ideal response from your freebie, you've got to have at least one of those and you might have a couple of them, depending on the types of audiences and the types of things you want to do. And we can get into the kinds of freebies if you want to, but you need to have them and and you're going to be driving people to that as often as you can because that gets people on your mailing list. Then you nurture them right then you're going to have your nurturing campaign. So getting people on your mailing list number one. And having the ecosystem that you then drive people to now you don't have to have the whole ecosystem all set and ready. But as is the norm for an ecosystem it's always in flow right you might take something out and put something new in that's fine. That's good, but you know you're you're having an ecosystem approach to it. Now, how do you move the needle. Now that you've got your great stuff you've got your freebie, how do you really move the needle and it comes down to traffic really, you know, and there's different kinds of traffic. I've already talked about how email traffic does tend to be some of the best. And within email traffic. The joint venture approach is something we focus on a lot in at the author co op which have he mentioned. It's a list building platform for not just for authors but all experts and speakers and you know the experts industry. And what we want to do. There is. What's, what's important is that we're doing JVs joint ventures how many. You already know what joint ventures are you. Should I cover that. I do but I of course, I would say yes, please do. I'll cover it briefly so a joint venture. So you all probably know what an affiliate relationship is. You've got a product. They've got an audience. They promote your product to their audience you pay them a commission for all the sales that they drive that's a one one way street, your product goes out to them they put it out to their audience, one direction. A joint venture is the exact same thing in two directions. You've got a product. They've got an audience. They've got a product. You've got an audience and you exchange. It's a trade. I'll promote you you promote me. And now naturally. So, well I'll start with the benefits of that. The reason why that's so powerful and that we we emphasize it quite a bit. It's not the only thing we do but the reason we emphasize it a bit is because it has some of the highest quality traffic. And this is about moving the needle and getting people farther down, you know, you're, you're farther into your ecosystem to actually make purchases and things like that. And that's because if somebody has an audience, their audience trusts them. That's their email audience. So if they say, hey, I just, you know, talk to my friend, you know, so and so and you really should go check out her book or you should go check out her freebie. It's really great. Now their audience is going to trust that right so you're getting a very warm audience. You're going to get a higher conversion rate, better quality. So it's high quality traffic. The other benefit of JV is, it's cheap. You don't have to pay anything. All you have to have is an audience you have to have an audience to return the favor right you have to trade. So you need that audience you need to build your audience to be able to do those JVs right. And then you do the same for your audience. The challenges of joint venturing is because it's an exchange, you have to find partners that are willing to do it and you have to both like each other stuff. Right. You have to kind of approve each other. And sometimes people don't want to do that. Right. It's a challenge that the biggest challenge is the partner part of it. Finding the partner that likes what you do and you like what they do. So you're both okay with promoting each other, not too competitive, but relative to your audience, your audience will like it, what they do and their audience will like what you do. And last point, also most important, their audience and your audience are approximately the same size. If you go to a partner and say, let's do a JV, I think my audience would like what you're doing. And they say, yeah, I think what you have is good for my audience. The first question they're going to ask is, how big is your list. You go, well, I've got 3000 people in my list and they go, yeah, come back later we have 30,000. So that's another obstacle is finding the right match. Right. And there's different tricks and things you can do. You can sometimes promote two or three times for them if they're bigger than you, and they promote once back for you. You go first and gather it up so they are sure you you've matched to them and then they then they resend back to you afterward. Sometimes it makes it happen if it's a mismatch on size. Sometimes you can bring in a partner with one of the things we do at the office we use our list on behalf of our members. So, so our 250,000 can be used to back up any of our members. So, so we basically facilitate JVs happen to happen. That's a unique thing, not everybody, you know, does that or has that. I believe in the JV way of driving traffic because of that because it's so warm. It's such good traffic if you can, you know, make it happen. Now, there are other types of traffic besides that, you know, there's paid paid media traffic so when you go out to advertising, there's social traffic podcasting, you know, all of that kind of thing. What you choose is going to be sort of a, you know, like an EQ setting on your music, you know, a little more of this a little less of this. If you have no, if you have no budget to spend on advertising, then that's going to be low, right, you're not going to do a lot of that you're going to do more of the stuff that's cheaper. If you have budget, then you can put some money into Facebook ads and make that work, you know, and experiment with that. It does depend on your personal situation and where you're going where you're trying to get to. This is why I was harping earlier on, it's not a one size fits all equation there's so many reasons why it's custom to your situation. Obviously, there are groupings. People, people do tend to fit into certain groups. But, but it's not always all the same. Did I answer that okay. So well, I, I'm sort of grappling with to add something you were saying it's not a one size fits all and, as we know technology always changes I just want to add this that I was recently invited to something that was a really unique proposition from a company. I'm not mean enough to know energetically yes no follow through okay I'll do a zoom or a quick call with you, but this guy started pitching and I'm like, I'm freaking in is so fascinating, and I don't know how it's going to end up, but they created something called an info stack. So for instance the one that they're having me participate in in June, my goodness, there must be at least 50 people who are donating something around book writing. My product is so expensive it's stupid, but I energetically got a yes and I'm like here you go 849 bucks, but it's not just my product and 49 it's like all 50. So every you know some people doing an ebook some people doing this I'm giving away a whole entire course like I just think it's fascinating right, but here's the rub about doing this info stack which really sort of ups the pressure is not just I sit back and why I get affiliate money. Actually, I only get per what I sell. So even though my product may be sold by other people, they're still going to get the benefit so really in a very good interesting way puts the pressure and you like you can't, you know, you're not sitting back and smoking your cigar and seeing the big question on that though and I, I think I know what the answer is going to be is, are you getting the email addresses. Right, exactly. I think you probably, probably know the people who purchased, or you know, actually, I appreciate you asking that because I was thinking well, since my product one of these products is on think epic I know that I'll be following on. So that's a good question, but I can certainly follow up and ask them. Very important actually because those sort of product based group product based things tend to not give you the email addresses they're good for certain things they're good for getting your brand out there and also you can you can use products that you may be a little older that you're not featuring anymore. And you can say hey this is really worth you know when I, when I had this, you know, three years ago, it was $295 I'm going to give it to you for $49 it's a really great deal. And I'm not really promoting it right now so what the heck right it's great for that. Right, and you will get you will get customers. The downside is you usually don't get the email addresses. And you're in there with a lot of other people. There's a similar group thing that we do and other people do as well that you could just call it the group gift page where you have 10 or 12 gifts on one page, and all the contributors all the people who contribute those gifts. Sort of like with your product but in this case it would be freebies. So everybody puts in a freebie onto this one page and the host of the page puts it up and you know promotes it, and then everybody who puts it and also promotes it. Right. And it's actually a kind of a requirement you have to promote to a certain level to be to be on that page. And then everybody gets the email addresses, but only of the ones that opt into your own thing. That's a similar thing that you described, but with freebies. That's great. Okay, so I, I have a few more questions we are going to open it up to you guys very soon. So if you have things that you're, you know, burning just write it down you'll definitely get a chance to contact and speak directly to Chris and get them answered. Let me see. Okay, before I go there, I want to make sure Chris will say it again at the end but Chris of course is going to offer you to work with him in the authors co op. Will you speak some to what people get in their list building. Absolutely. Absolutely. It is a list bill it is primarily a list building platform. It is to help what we call mid list authors and experts build and mid list means you're still building your platform. You're not an a lister yet. That's all that that's all that means, which is most most of us right. So, if you have, we would I would say if you have 30,000 in your mailing list or more, you don't need to be in the article. So, if, if any of you listening and have 30,000 or more on your mailing list. You probably don't need to be in the other co op we have other things that we do for that. But if you're still trying to build up to that number. It basically fast tracks it. So we, we bring in we help you build your best freebie, right we work with you on that. And I have a little process a little four step process to sort of measure whether your previous gonna work. It's going to kind of do what you want it to do is going to go where you want it to go. And then you, you usually create the freebie it may be something you already have and maybe something new we decide that together and then you give it to us we put it up online on our, on our platform and we put the page up, and then we promote it to our audience to our audience, right, which is that anywhere from about 150,000 to 250,000 depending on what the freebie is and what the audience is. Because we have segments of different segments. So then, so then we sort of kickstarted right so you'll get you'll get people into your mailing list just from our internal mailing, and then from that point on, and this is probably the greatest benefit of it really. You can bring in your JV partners your partners who would who want to promote your stuff, but you don't have enough of a mailing list to promote them back. So we use our list on your behalf. And the only requirement is that that partner promotes the Phoebe that we have for you, right. The one that we built together and put up on our platform. So they promote that freebie and then we promote them back on your behalf. They could be up to 200,000 mailing list and you get all that traffic to your freebie. It's a really powerful option. The thing is, you have to find those partners, right, we're not going out and getting partners for you. These are for your partners that you find. Now we give you tips and best practices on how to find those. But you, you make those connections and obviously we the first tip is start with the people you already know who are influencers in your area, start with them and see if they'll promote for you. And if you let them know that they will be promoted in return from your marketing partner that backs you up with 250,000 in their mailing list, that'll open up some doors that'll, you know, open up their ears like, oh, I can get promoted to. What do you got, you know, people will listen more right and and then you bring them in to us we have a little meeting my JV manager meets with them sets it up and we make that happen you get that traffic. You can do that as much as you want once you're a member, you can do that as much as you want. There's no extra cost for doing those. We have about I'd say about what what generally happens is, you know, 70 to 80% of our members do do at least a couple of those. And then it starts to paper off, they kind of get in touch with everybody they know. And, and then I say, you know, here's how to reach out to people you don't yet know that you know of. And here's how to reach out to them and some of them do that and some of them don't. Right. That's where it gets you know that's where it's like work you have to you have to go find the connections and make those influencer connections. The more of the people who do that, the faster they build their list. Yeah, that seems to me that that's where the gold is. Yeah. Absolutely. And then we also, you know, we have our own media components that we use that we do we have. We have our group gift pages like I described just a minute ago, we have our own that we use just for our members. So it's sort of a very internal group, which actually is a good thing it gets around certain of the drawbacks of those group gift pages when, when it's just anybody. You know, the host of the gift pages are putting together anybody who has a freebie. Sometimes you kind of wonder like do I really want to be on the same page as some of those guys. You know they're not that great quality sometimes you're not sure. Right. Whereas, our group gift pages, it's always members of the co op for the author co op and so you know that we're handling their gift pages so you know it's going to work. You know they're all good quality. We do those we do multi author events we do we have a couple of summits that we do we have a couple of easings magazines that we invite our members to contribute to and those go out so we have all these other different things that we do to promote to. So you're offering a lot of significant visibility list building I love that this is exponential it's not just this one path but you really cover a lot of territory that's important. I understand correctly the people who are purchasing your program today I'll give out that URL it's launch moxie launch moxie.com slash vis, like visibility visionaries viv vis launch moxie.com slash vis, they are also you're throwing in as a bonus a free coaching session with you is that a private coaching session. Yeah, it's a one on one extra one on one so you get one with me when you join, and you get an extra I'm going to throw in an extra one. That's so right there. That's a unique proposition right there that's worth the worth every everything. Yeah. Okay, fantastic. And you. Moxie. I have so many notes from everything you said compelling sale freebies. Success story I think I want to hear a success story launch, my launch moxie authors co op success story tell us somebody who is really not doing so well and what potentially happened. I'll have a couple. The first one that comes to mind is one of our clients that's been with us for many, many years he came here, Mark Waldman, he's a fairly well, well respected neuro science researcher he's done several books. He was a professor at LMU for a long time, and he came to us without much of a mailing list without much of an infrastructure. Five, six years ago, probably about 3000 in his mailing list, he now has 50,000 in his mailing list, and he drives. I mean, that is a very loyal list. They love what he does when he moves the needle anytime he promotes anything. And this is great it performs as well as a list of 100,000, you know, from a general general list. And so it's really great to see that success and we've helped him build his pages and we handle all of his freebies. We also, in his case we also help him build those pages and his website and is we help him with his e-commerce and all that stuff too. And he's built many programs now online courses, and he now has several he started off with just one when we met him. And he's got numerous freebies we've built special funnels now to drive into those programs. He's very thriving now a very thriving neuro coach training program to for coaches to learn neuro coaching. Right. So, he's a great success story I love I love that one he's with us you quickly I know mark very well and that's awesome to hear. Somebody comes to you and has a freebie. Do they do all the creating the author person does all the creating and then they just turn it over to you and you make something fabulous happen online with it or how does that work. Quite often depends on the freebie but nine times out of 10. Yes. Although we decide what the freebie will be, and the approach of the freebie together. And then, and like I say, sometimes it's something you already have that maybe you just tweak it a little bit. Other times, maybe it's something you have to start, you know, create some scratch or pull things together from that doesn't yet exist. We decide on that together. Right. And then you the author creates it. Right. And, and then yes we put it together from that point on now if it's an ebook, and we use we do a lot of ebooks little what we call mini ebooks. Like 20 pages 22 pages maximum is very common. We don't necessarily produce the ebook. We can, and we sometimes do if you want us to, but a lot of times the author will have a designer of their own or, you know, somebody that does that for them and they'll give us a finished PDF ebook. Other times they'll say well can you can you actually produce it for me and we charge a little extra for that but we do that too. And then we'll put that up online so it kind of depends on the freebie if it again, like if it's a course like a little mini course. There will be little short videos and of course nine times out of 10 the author does those themselves. And they just send us the videos and we do the rest. Wow. Okay, excellent. And freebies you were mentioning earlier there's some freebies that are much better than others which ones do you recommend that generally get the conversion. Well, more than one answer to that. I keep saying in this. We have so many different people from different backgrounds here so it's perfect. Yeah, well, I can tell you some general ideas here so the ebook downloads little mini ebook downloads are very popular. People love to get them people love to collect them. People do, they're very compelling if they have a compelling title. There should be a compelling title and we work with you to make sure it is compelling. And people love them. The downside is sometimes they download them and then don't read them. Right. Right. So you have that problem. But the person got into your mailing list by downloading it so you at least you can email them. Right. Or the self assessment, you know, which type of, you know, XYZ are you, you know, which, you know, like the Harry Potter people did did which which of the four houses, you know, they're, I figured what they called, you know, which if you were in the in the school, the Hogwarts school which of the four houses would you be in and that's a perfect example of the kind of quiz that you want to do. You know, putting people into four or five or six categories. People love those they want to know about themselves they want to know which one would I be, you know, it's very compelling, maybe the most compelling, and you get the most options for that. It's, but their heart their more work. Yep, and you make sure you have to do it right because if you, if you give people the impression you're leading them on to something they'll quit the quiz in the middle. So you won't get the email address they have to be very careful you're doing it well. But they are maybe one of the most compelling little mini courses are good. They should be many because one of the downsides of doing a mini courses you can easily over deliver and you want to make sure you don't over deliver. So, you know, two, seven minute videos, three, seven minute videos somewhere in that neighborhood, delivering, you know, one little nugget in each video, that's it. Right. Those are compelling though people like those they can just read you know just go through the videos real quickly and get that get the information right. There's things like an email drip. This is these are very common we do a lot of email drips where it's like five tips over five days or seven steps to something. If you can put things in separate emails in a daily email. Then that's a good option. It's they're easy to do their short, they're compelling and you're emailing people over and over so they get used to opening your emails and looking at you every day for seven days. So your picture is there your logo is there so they, it's a great ongoing reminder, and they sign up for a seven day process so they know they're getting seven days of stuff, or five days or whatever it is. So we do a lot of those drips email drip so those are just a few. They're all good options. It comes down to, you know what the best content is for your purpose. And you know, what turns you on. This is amazing I'm taking notes because I'm getting, I'm getting ideas to I have so much of what you talk about but I've never done a quiz and I love them to and I am also so guilty of what you say, someone has a book and in the moment it's like okay that sounds awesome and I'll go on I'm like zero capacity like thank you. I want to say it is kind of genius it gets you in and I really want to iterate for my students here, who are working on their book, a 20 page ebook, like Chris is talking about is not your book, right and y'all just did an anthology together you did 35 pages. So it's even shorter, and you don't even have to for those who are like, don't want to deal want to hire beautiful hire, you could go to Canva. And for free or paid subscription, which I have, you can create a beautiful ebook a 20 page ebook there. So this kind of stuff is not that hard when you're just doing something that is an offer to get people aboard and just don't use a sample chapter. And. Yeah, real beginning middle and end. Yes, think of it as a as a little independent little book. One of the things I encourage people to do when when authors come to see this can I do a sample chapter I say no but you what you can do is a highlights pull highlights from your book. So a little paragraph here a little paragraph there just all throughout the book and compile it into the highlights. Many book. Now that's not always the best for everybody but that's something you could consider is a little highlights book. Otherwise, another strategy is to do like the missing chapter from your book. You know, this is the one that didn't get into the book and so you, of course you design it to be its own little independent book but you call it you know the missing chapter. That's a cool strategy. Sometimes it's a workbook exercise book that can stand alone but also goes with the book. You know, so there's a lot of strategies for using books little mini book. Okay, so as promised, we are going to open this up to folks. And I know that Devon had a question and rather than read it Devon if you don't mind. Go ahead and make yourself seen. I'm not camera ready today hi I am Devon's higher pitched female half more Ghana, but I'm here to. Yes. So I wanted clarification so because this is super attractive to me I have I am the freebie queen quizzes courses downloads, and they lead to sales. If I do if I send my friends with 100,000 person list do I get all of their options. And, and it's the free okay I'm seeing a positive head nod. And is my freebie on its own page or is it on a list of freebies. Both. So, first, yes, you get all the options that go into your freebie. Absolutely that's your list. And then the second part is each freebie has its own page, and we drive traffic to that page but we also put them on group pages and we have several things in fact you could just go to launch moxie calm the home page. And you'll see a bunch of freebies there in different categories just click on some and look at them. And, you know, if you want to opt into a few and see some of the books or things like that you're welcome to of course. But you can see the pages right you can see how we format the pages and, and then up in the upper right corner on the menu system of that home page. And some of our category what we call our category pages which is basically groups, you know, in category so we have a money, money category so all of the different freebies that that are sort of money and success and finance oriented are on those on that page and then we have one for health. So we do both. Very cool follow up question. I already forgot the question. Oh, no more follow up question thank you. You're welcome. If you remember later you can always chime in. I also want to say when y'all ask a question. Please just one liner. This is what I do that's all I want I don't want to pitch. But the reason is, I just looking around, we have somebody here who wrote an amazing book on grief, and is also a dancer and an actress. We have healers here we have someone here who is a very successful musician. We have somebody here was a very successful composer, and also does mindfulness meditation for cancer people we have someone here who is a love relationship coach who also co does the meditation we've got love people travel people. So please we're all mindful folks but it might help Chris to maybe have a great idea for you, and what you do in your realm so let's use this time wisely we're all going to learn from each other and who else has a burning question, or a hot question, or a cold question. My follow up question if that's okay. Devin hi. What kind of results I mean do you have sort of like a general a general number finger figure if somebody starts off with let's say, a list of say 3000 is, you know, getting 10,000 is that unrealistic what is sort of a realistic expectation and thank you in advance. Sure. Well, we, I give a little bit of an expectation on our in house promotion, which is a guaranteed a guaranteed promotion. We generally get at least 1000 clicks to the offer, which usually results in at least 500 opt in so get it we get at least a 50% opt in rate usually better. If we don't like to see an opt in rate of lower than 40% than we, we look at it again and maybe redo it if it's if it's getting lower than 40% so sometimes we get much more than that. Sometimes we get a little less than that we promote it again, but we generally try to hit at least a minimum of 1000 clicks 500 opt ins from our promotion, our internal. And then how, how fast and how far the rest of it goes really depends on you, right depends on how many of those jb's you bring in, how active is that we've had, we've actually had people who go out and hire a jb manager to go out and get the jb partners to bring into the co op because the co op members, and they do like we have one that did a campaign for like three months, she brought in 20 or 30 of these that we did with her. And we're happy to have that. We don't mind that at all. She actually, you know, hired up a jb manager to go get the jb partners for her. She got several 1000, you know, thousands of opt in, you know, during that period. Now not everybody's going to go that far. But, but how many of those you do does influence how fast and how far it goes. So you, the 1000 comes from mailing out to 250,000 people. No, generally, it's to a segment, we're going to mail to the best segments that match what you do. Real quick, our segments are, we have a mindfulness and meditation segment, we have a soul and spirit segment which we call it which you could call the woo woo segment. Neurology, numerology, that kind of stuff. Very, very responsive segment. We have a business segment that sort of be to be which is which includes people like you authors experts. We have what else am I forgetting we have a neuroscience segment. We have so we have various segments and we'll usually promote this to two or three depending on how they fit. Right. So yeah, it's not you will very unlikely you just go out for one segment, but, but it's also less likely you go out to all of them. We want to pick the segments that fit what you're doing. And so we just say 1000 is, you know, what we strive for and if it goes a lot below 1000 we keep promoting until we get that. So Christian for you, Chris and then we'll go to Karen. I'm harkening back to what you asked me earlier, niggling now about, are they giving me the email list and like, I certainly get the import of that. So let's say I go back to these people say hey cool I'm going to be doing this info stack and they say no. What what is your recommendation. What do you think it's worthwhile to participate. I'm good with an honest answer. If it's a product that, like I said is a, you know, something from the past you're not really using it much anymore, and it's just kind of, you know, found money that you could earn. I'd say go ahead. Other otherwise I'd say those kinds of those kinds of group deals generally benefit the host more than the participants got it because they're getting all they're getting all of the options. Right. You're lucky if you get just the ones for yours right. And maybe you don't even get that you might you can ask them but. So, I mean you just have to look at it it doesn't mean automatically that it's a bad thing. I know a lot of people who have built lists off of free group gift pages. And they make it work. And so I'm not saying don't do them. Just saying you know look look at it and see if you can finagle in a little extra benefit, hey, can you give me the list. Well if I promote it beyond X amount when you give me the list, you know, things things like that. Sometimes they have a minimum promotion requirement, things like negotiating love it. Okay, great. Thank you. And Karen, I know you had a question. Go ahead and unmute yourself. Okay, thank you for being here. I really enjoyed this talk so much so and also because it's just confirming a lot of the things that I knew and then other things bringing in so I really appreciate your presence here. So there's a few of us on here and there may be even more that that I'm unaware of who were part of an anthology book, and we just published in April and late April. And so how, what would be your advice on how to, you know, as there's four authors is five with Debbie in there. And how would you advise to promote something like this. That's cool people. I've seen different models. The primary purpose of a group book like that is prestige. It's not really to drive traffic per se, although I've seen models that do that do do that. But the probably the number one reason to be in one of those is is for prestige purposes is to have been published alongside some of these other names that are in the book. The book hopefully gets out there because the host that's creating this book and all the other authors that are part of it are joining together to try to catapult this into the bestseller list of some sort, so that you can say, I've been in a book that's a bestseller co authored with so and so. That's the main purpose for so even if it doesn't drive any traffic. If it does that for you that's good. And that's the reason to be there. Now I've seen models where they allow the authors to pull out their chapter and use it independently as a freebie. Now you'd have to get permission from the host of that. You can get some hosts that do those books that do allow that. And then you could use your, the work that you put into that chapter. You know, as your own freebie. So that's, you know, you can, you can get a little extra mileage from it. Right. Sometimes they let you even give away the book after a certain period of time, they'll allow the authors of the book the co authors of the book to to give the ebook version the way as a freebie. So those are some of the things that I've seen. You'd have to coordinate this with the host, but it's possible to then answer your question. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I appreciate that. Sure. And Chris, will you reiterate the authors co op program where they sign on to work with you. That's at launch moxie.com slash vis. Well, two free private session that for me is like I'm already, I get two free private sessions with you. I know that's a game changer and and just reiterate what else did they get for the list building. They get the they get their freebie online. Right. And the, and the consultations to build that freebie. That's the, that's the first of the two consultations, and then you get a night you'll get an expert. But the first one is usually spent making sure your freebie is going to be the exact right thing for you. And then we put that online and we promote to it. Okay, so that's the basic everybody gets. And then you get the ability to bring in your, your JV partners. You don't have to do that at all. And in a while we have a member that doesn't do that at all, but most of our members will at least do a few of those. And we really encourage it because like you said Debbie that's the gold really that's that's where you're really getting value. And there's no extra cost for doing that you can do as many of those as you want. And we just schedule them. Make it happen. So, and that's the package that's what you get and, and then, I mean the truth is you do get other things we put, we invite our members to be in our, our media. You know, like our easings and our summits and our things that we do. So you'll get that kind of exposure as well throughout the year, you know, and year after year. You also get a little benefits of if you wanted to do a second promotion you want us to promote again to our list. You'll get a special discount on that kind of stuff. You know our members get discounts on other stuff. But you know, those are optional, of course. Yeah, that's beautiful. I'm the same once once you're in once you're in my tribe and make it. Yeah, make it all work so that's great you really build a community is what I'm hearing I know you've been doing this a really long time. Anybody Robert, David, have a question. Dolores. No, I must have explained everything. Art Barbara. I'm happy to jump in again this is Morgana. I'm sure everybody else is answered so I'll hang out here. This is your opportunity folks. If you have some something I hear someone is that art. Yeah. So, when we bring potential JVs and do we like email you and go hey I want to bring this JV in and then what's the next steps or how does it work. We have a little members guide that's like a little ebook that explains that explains it all. But essentially, yeah, you don't email me email DB who is our manager. Yeah, and she'll basically, basically the steps are you start that you start the conversation with this partner. You get them to at least express some interest. Right. And you can just say okay the very nice step is to meet with me and launch moxie people. And you can ask them about it. Or you can go one more step first, and get an idea of what they want to do and show them what you've got, and then do a meeting with us. So if I'm understanding what one good way to do it is we, we don't say have to get a commitment from them just interest, then we have been eating. You guys are a little more impressive about it than I will. Yeah, we'll know all the right answers and the right questions and all that and you know some sometimes your JB partner is going to be very experienced with JV and they know exactly what to ask and all that and sometimes they don't know much about it at all. And I'm on the meeting we're actually teaching them a little bit about it. And that's okay too. It happens. That's great. Any other questions, Morgana why don't you jump in there. This is related to arts because I would need to know this before I approach to JV partner. They would want to know if they're going to mail out. How many people will be in return. And that will also impact how many they mail out to. So if they have a list of a quarter of a million will you mail out to your quarter of a million list for them to make it worth their while that that's what I'm interested in. Yeah, that's a good question. Basically the answer is in essence yes that there's there's more nuance to it when we actually get into the conversation. It really comes down to just tracking right we track clicks, everybody tracks clicks and opt-ins right. If it's an email database, you know we're going to a normal email database we're going to see normal opt-in rate that we always get and so are they when we when we mail back they're going to see the same thing if it's a normal opt-in in a normal email database. Sometimes we do a deal with somebody who has a social media column. They have 500,000 social media. Well we can't do click for click we can't measure, you know because because email traffic is way more powerful than social traffic, but I don't want to say no to that. So what we do in those cases is we count and track the opt-ins right how many people actually opted in. So it gets nuanced but the idea the bottom line is the whole point of the of the, I'll call it a negotiation, right, it's a light negotiation. The whole point of it is to just be fair to both parties. That's the bottom line we want it to be fair for everyone. And if they send us a thousand clicks and we get a normal opt-in rate we're going to send them back a thousand clicks. Excellent. We have at least three more questions if you guys are okay to hang out just a few minutes past where we said we'd stop. I think we're on a an information roll right here I'm getting a lot out of this. So, Karen, go ahead, ask your question. Yeah, it was just piggybacking on what they were saying so if I, let me see if I understand it so if you bring in somebody, bring in a joint, you know joint venture partner, and you're essentially saying that all three of us are going to put something out for each other is that what you're saying or are just the two of us that are going to get exposure on launch, launch moxie. I'm not exactly just to be really precise because I'm not sure if this is what you're saying, but basically, it's a two way exchange. The partners promoting you, but promoting your freebie that we have on our system that we've done for you. So essentially they're promoting you, you get those email that that's your list, as we've been saying, right. And then we promote them back as if you were promoting them back. So it's a two way exchange between you, which is also us, you and us on one side and them on the other side. Okay, all right, yeah, thank you because I was trying to pressing that out. Okay, great. Thank you. And Chris, I just want to make sure you know that you're getting so many compliments in the chats this is wonderful after we watch it there's so much great information. Someone else writing there's a wealth of information feeling grateful for all of you shared time to upgrade on our freebie lol. Thank you, etc. So there's a lot of love coming to you and and gratitude. Wonderful. Art, go ahead with your question. Yeah, I think it's just a quick one so. I'm reading on launch moxie I know you every week or something send us the emails. I assume they're also been on a launch moxie master list so and I think you guys already told me but everything's GDR PR or whatever I get the initials mixed up compliant. Yeah, we're going to be like, yeah, we're can spam and GDPR compliant. Most people don't even know what that what those really mean. We do have a lot of foreign customers. Yeah, a lot of people assume GDPR and can spam mean certain things that they doesn't and they don't realize it means other things. We're very up on it we've actually read the laws. I mean we're in the business, it would be it would be, you know, crazy person not to have read the laws. You know, we're in that business but but yes they're there. Yeah, and then Canada so there's basically three to pay attention to the Canadian law the American law which is can spam and the GDPR European law. Those are really the only three that anybody needs to pay attention to really. And, and we do. I just so when we get the emails from you. We can upload them into our list and that's. Are you asking him if he writes the if his team writes the copy for you. No, he's, I think he's asking if they're, if it's okay for him to be mailing to the people whose list we give them and the answer is yes, they're opting into your freebie, you're the author, they're opting in to get your freebie. And that's your list. Great. Yeah, and we have some best practices in our little manual that I mentioned to make sure that you minimize people, you know unsubscribing. And I think it's fantastic deal I just wanted to make sure it was clear how that works. Yeah, thanks for the question. And my final questions you Chris is I want another success story but honestly, I get so I actually learn sometimes when you explain how somebody was doing something or what happened so we heard about Mark Waldman fantastic. Is there someone like completely different who is an author co op, maybe much like us that we can relate to. I think that you helped out what happens what they did with the implemented. Sure. Lots, lots. A couple of a couple of real quick stories. I like to tell this one because it really emphasizes the unique value proposition. A story, I think that's how you say his name years ago, came to me with a book that he was writing and wanted to do his freebie and all that. And it was about finances, right and he was sort of calling it like ABCs of business or ABCs of finance of personal finance wasn't not business but personal finance. And it was really weak and he kind of knew that that was weak. Right. And so I started talking to him about well what is it you're doing and you know, and he finally got around to telling you the story of how he even thought about doing this book in the first place which was that he had seen it. An episode of Oprah. And they were talking about money anxiety. And he just really related to that everybody has money anxiety I said he said I really want to just help people with their money anxiety I said well then why don't you call your book the money anxiety cure. And he just went. That's exactly what I want to call it. It just clicked right like that's, that's exactly the point. And so the book is called the money anxiety here you can see it on Amazon. And it really just established his whole brain, right, his whole unique value proposition. Did the same thing with with Roy P from the from the East, he's in China, and he had a very similar story. He came to me didn't quite know what he wanted to do at all really he just wanted to do sort of self, you know personal I said well what do you know what do you like doing, you know, so well I like doing my little emails that I send out to my list, you know, with little tips. I said, how little he said they're little like little one line things or two line things I said great. You're the micro transformation guy. And again, same thing you went, that's perfect for me. And so his whole brand became micro transformations. Right. And he did a little ebook for he did the ebook like in two days, we saw he was so excited. Like this is so perfect for me. And he put together his ebook and like his mini book right freebie in like two days, send it to me we put it up online. It's one of our best downloads. Right. Those are some examples like you didn't even mention this so this sounds like on top of everything else you were talking about, you can also. I mean, this is what I'm hearing that these are people who are in the author co op and please correct me if I'm wrong or confirm if I'm right, that you also help find a brand, you know and obviously a title. That can be repurposed everywhere. And then you also help them find their path. Right so you took what they do and put a name to it which in turn, ignited them because that's freedom to know that is. People don't need that they already know what their, what their brand is and what their, but some people don't and they do need that help. And one of the things that we do in that first meeting is we make sure that your unique value proposition is is right on the nose and and articulated properly and if it's not, I'll help you do it. Yeah, that's also very helpful I want to say for people who are hyphens, and a lot of people in the body mind spirit category have to say are multi talented, you know, they sing and they are also healers and their authors and then they offer as a coach and it can feel like a major mushroom, you know and how do you get that a line to become very clear of what you put out there. So people are clear about this is why I work with you. So, this is great you clean up these little messes, it sounds like. That's one way to put it, I haven't thought of that make little stars out of people that's and I get why this guy would have been so excited to write an impassioned to write his book because that's clarity that's all you need. Yeah, and it was an exciting enough, you know, touch, touch upon what he his passion was that that it just turned it on quite. And that's that's, that's when you know you've nailed it makes it so much easier to be you out in the world. Okay, so I want to thank everybody for coming today. I want to thank Christopher for the wealth of information you imparted to us. Really awesome. I have little scribble notes everywhere I love to this. And I think, you know, if you even followed that much of what Christopher shared for your book for your products for your business etc coaching. This is, it's a game changer. This is the stuff that moves the needle this is why experts are experts in what they do and why we hired them and all of us, right for what we do in our own fields this is why people come to us because they don't know what they don't know we do. I understand your question will he have a list of us if we sign up on the website. Yes, I'm quite sure that if Christopher taught this that if you sign up on his website launch moxie or launch moxie.com slash vi s I promise. Because this is what he was just teaching us he will do the same. Thank you all again for participating. David said thank you Christopher and I think this was just an excellent excellent episode the replay will be up. And I wish you all tremendous visibility in everything you do, and in everything you so deserve that and many times over. Thank you. Thank you everyone. Have a great day and thanks.