 So, hello. Welcome to this special webinar on connecting science and art, how to find and be a scientist. My name is Simon Clark, I'm the European Geosciences Union's Projects Coordination Officer. And today we have two speakers to talk on and discuss the experience in arts and sciences. First of all, there is a bandon, a PhD student Englishologist, who is also an artist aiming to communicate climate scientists and other things through arts. And Natalia Jegelska, a doctoral student at the University of Edinburgh who specialises in paleontology, were focused on the evolution of Jurassic terrasors, not as an arts range just on illustration books to creating accessible science. So, we'll speak on the experiences first, and then there'll be questions towards the end. If we have any questions, please put them in the box, we'll get around to them. And so to begin with, Natalia, could you bring in your presentation. Hi, guys, my name is Natalia and I'm a PhD student at the University of Edinburgh, and I study paleontology, which is a study of extinct animals, most of which which are no longer alive and probably will never see them in flesh unless some kind of Jurassic Park happens, which is pretty unlikely. But it's something that already happened in the past, people were talking about animals they never had seen previously. And on the opening slide, some examples of this very phenomenon. So you have the Juris Rhino from 1515 so almost 500 years ago, that was illustrated by German printmaker 500 years ago in Europe before we had any rhino services they were just mentions of them in literature. And he was reporting one to Europe by material but suddenly died and drawn in a storm. So nobody had seen rhinoceros in Europe. And you wanted to expose this animal to the European community. So he communicating some people to get description and got some sketches from people that seen those rhinos and tried to reconstruct Daniel as he would report it's going to be looking alive. And as you can see in this corner over here, that's the rhino he came up with it's, it's, it looks like a small tanks it looks like a very big armadillo. It's very he has this very night, like, look with our small bones and just chain link protected feet which are not really I think you've seen rhino, but that was what was he reflected in the descriptions he received. So it's not accurate for description by model, which is an interesting interpretation of how Daniel looked like from second resources. And that illustration was featured in 1551. History animal which was one of the first of illustrated encyclopedias for general public with illustration of animals. It's included rhino rhino and also included things like unicorns and fantasy animals, not because people thought they were real just because they were boosting their sales of the book. So it's a very close story of the first encyclopedia and you can also see that the exopus that was featured in an encyclopedia was also drawn out of not from living animal, just living after pie usually have slants for eyes this one has a big round eyes. This is possibly also illustrated by use communication. And the other point here, it's one of the first reconstructions of mammoths with soft tissue based on some tusks found in Siberia, and you can see it doesn't look very fun time. So as a plan told us we're basically doing what those artists are doing 500 years ago we are trying to reconstruct animals from bits and bobs for comments from sketches that nature left us behind. Before I get into it quick introduction about me. My name is Antaljelska. I'm a finally a PhD student in the University of Edinburgh in my last year, unfortunately scary times, and I'm a plantologist and I studied Jurassic Thorses. So basically those guys, big flying reptiles with enormous wings I'm going to talk about them later. And in addition to my research, I make illustrations for academic publications my own and other scientists use it for science communication. Also, I draw as a relaxing for relaxation and self expression, and also earning some passive income from site time to time, which is great because I'm a minimum wage worker so it doesn't hurt to have slightly more money. So let's start with science and art and how they intersected and how and why people might think them as a weird thing that doesn't really go in together. After all, science and arts usually we see creativity as something separate to intelligence but that's not the case at all when you look historically, just people from since the start of the time as soon as we could put a charcoal on a surface, we're illustrating and observing things and try and contextualize things. Illustration helps us to process on interpret things we see in real life, and also in things like geosciences. It's a way of collecting reproducing and preserving data, even especially before video and digital media and like cameras. It helps us to capture something like a comet and eruption, a fossil doesn't see you are a rock formation, only way of conducting that data and rapids communicating to other scientists abroad was via illustration and art. And also, it's a learning tool. We still touch young geology on the grass to draw things they're saying to do field sketches of rock formations. So we should focus on something even not as an artist, and you have to reproduce it on a paper we start making notes of difference in texture, meet differences in color and appreciating the thing in more detail than just surface level. So art itself is a great way of learning new things and observing and recording. And it was in the past and still should be today, even if digital media is in different shapes and sizes. And also the usually reflecting off the time they happened. So when you look at something like comets. There are records in relation with them dating to first century BC in things like old silk manuscripts from China. You also see a mentions of the Kaley's comet in the Bayesian chemistry content 66 and see it in the corner over here. It's not a scientific drawing but reflect scientific phenomena people didn't know. Sometimes scientific phenomena can be also used to contextualize why the things happening on in the current time sort of contextualizing outside of the scientific fields like this 1853 comet representing things that happened in the past year. So we have more 20th century twist, but we are sighting away from the illustration of photography. And a cool story about a fairly common coming back in 1910 to, to sort of contextualize sciences. When the comment was going back for United States people were worried that's going to cause end of the world that's going to cause end of the world. And there was a lot of fake news and pseudoscience in the news so very contemporary stuff, people selling anti comet umbrellas and medications, like Dr. So that's kind of exciting and sort of showcases how you look at a safer than a man of comet for time with ads and how we look at that and how we deliver art. And we're selling technology it's super important because it also helps us to visualize a speculation and reflect the society that live in. So if you focus on small example of an iguanodon, which is a high reverse dinosaur from the cretaceous, and that it was discovered this guy was illustrated by mantel who discovered a lot of iguanodon pieces. And he directed this quadrupedal lizard like animal iguanol like animal with a small horn on its nose. And this idea was sort of carried forward to the crystal palace exhibition, which was the first exhibition presenting dinosaurs to the general public run by the guy who opened National History Museum London, and it also presented dinosaurs as this kind of extinct loon bearing things, things you look at it's like Oh, I understand why this thing went exists extinct. And so maybe even reflected old colonial old world views. And it still went for the colonial colonial quadrupedal reconstruction of the animal with the horn on its nose in 20th century with more discoveries and more animals and more better understanding of animal biology. And here we have a reconstruction of iguanodon with the horn that was on the nose moved on the phone. And with the, here's the most modern interpretation of diamond by contemporary paleo artist, and just combining different perspectives together we know slightly more about musculature we have better communication to zoologists and we have more fossil specimens of better quality which sometimes possess soft tissue formation, and we have slightly different interpretation of that animal. That doesn't mean that's the final version of the thing but there's still other things to learn and this image will be defined and recontextualized changes of culture, and also changes in our scientific understanding. So in psychology, art is great way of seeing how society perceived animals, how science was communicated and why, and how views and a lot of information about dinosaur changed over time. And sometimes even the source of speculation can be prophetic. So in 1915, William Bebe, sort of proposed this kind of animal, a bird lizard mixture with that's like a small biplane with wings on its arms and legs, stretching with feathers and some years later, as very similar animals sort of uncovered from China, a quadrupedal flying microprocessor. So sometimes even a speculation of an art can turn into a real discovery in the future. Also interestingly, sometimes artists and scientists can come together to create brand new discoveries like in this Winfrey paper from 2016. This always keeps telling to people or used to tell people that will never know for sure how dinosaurs could look like, and all the things we are doing it's a sort of evidence backed interpretation and reconstruction, which is not always accurate, but it's the best we can do. The amazing fossils coming to light and new methodologies of studying them, we could rest construct this psedacosaurus, a small ceratopsid. And you have a small model of this animal in this presentation by Bob Nichols, a famous paleo artist, who looked at the model at the fossil and had the amazingly soft preserved soft tissue. You can see the visual scales, you can see the extent of the musculature, you can see the bristles on the stale, and even small dots and discolorations on the skin, making it for amazing reconstruction. So Bob Nichols, this 3D model of the animal, just putting the things we see on the fossil on the model, and that model was used to study counter trading and camouflage within the animal. So this is an art history with science to create something brand new and novel. And so science and arts and literally not something separate, it's not a pathology especially they communicate with each other and co-evolve together, they complementary. And of course science is very important. It's important for communication, especially outside of fields outside of academic spectrum. Sure, we have the models and things which will be used as tools for future scientists, but museum displays animal and pop culture film and TV is very important for science communication. So art usually in pop culture is being under control, something like Jurassic Park did more favours the pathology than years of study itself and something like they have said tomorrow as a film influence how many people look at climate change outside of academic spheres. So science communication via art is extremely important and we should not be neglecting it. So with that, now knowing how important art and sciences, how intertwined they are, how do you become an artist and scientist simultaneously, or if you're a scientist, how do you reach out to illustrators to help you boost your artwork. So to be an artist and sciences, you have to be like a creature after an extinction event. You have to find your niche, and there are different niches within arts itself, and then all of the months that I'm created by the field. So as a technical artist, you can do diagrams figures and academic reference materials for textbooks or complimentary materials for papers in journals. This will make your work stand out make it more readable and be useful especially for other peers in the academic sphere. It can be also used to boost your research to create nice press release images that will get you clicks and get you talking, get media outside of academic spheres interested in your research. It can also make accessible sense communication that public outreach illustrations don't capture imagination of people outside of academia, which is our goal as scientists. Or you can do it as something to relax as a side hobby, something to get your mind out of things and also turn it into passive income. I, I as an artist do both of those things so that here's a cover I did for my current biology paper. And to communicate my science, I collaborate with other artists like Rebecca group of paleo plushies to create interactive movable plushies so I can use and towards different schools and conferences and universities to help general scientists on to understand my research easily without intimidation and incomparable artists and local artists into my scientific communication process. And also, like to cutify my research by creating huge stickers and posters which I can sell on conferences within an outside academic spectrum, which is also very useful. So as an artist, the first thing is to establish yourself. There's a lot of people, but people have to find you if they want to stand out. So the best thing is to open some sorts of conferences. So if you're doing an academic conference, ask if you can have a small store with samples of your work and try to have business costs ready. So each time you see a potential customer and just give them a business card, and probably be in the conscious of them if they're going to be looking for an artist to post their research or do science communication. You also have to be a very active on social media, which is the big and weird scary step. Because social media is very viable. It's very very algorithm driven, and it's very demanding. There are different facets and different audiences in different social media sites. So sometimes if you want to reach for younger audiences, you might go for Instagram or TikTok, if you want to reach all the audiences, you might try Facebook groups. So it depends on geography and it's quite unstable. So you can tell from Twitter, which sort of goes in and out of existence, occasionally, and my migrating master. But active social media is important to use update people up with your status and present your artwork. It's also very important to have a portfolio ready so each time somebody wants to commission you, others often you have examples of your work ready, and also you can go to the website or shop to sell products or advertise yourself so you have some email information optimize it so it's easy to find on Google. It's also very important to network, usually other artists know each other. So if you know no one, you can find opportunities and help by network of other artists because we communicate with each other and like to more about things. So one of the things to consider before you go on to that adventure. Oh, no. Is that because it's we are in EGU, it's a European conference, every country in Europe has slightly different laws regarding copyright, we're getting copyright of artworks and regulation regarding taxable income. So if you look at first into selling your art and becoming a big illustrator. Just look at the rights that are happening in your country. If it's easy for you to have side income without paying the taxes for it. And if you can easily sell your art, we were brought forward to gain gain copyright for it. If you want to get commissions for member communication is very important. So remember to show your works in progress to your customers and not start working without setting everything with your customer first so set the price expectations and time span. Also always remember you are full time academic. So doing side work as an artist might be additional workload because art is a full time work, remember to know what you can do with your kind of time and how to do this kind of responsibilities specifically. And that's everything for me, I hope we have some questions for the Q&A later feel free to follow me on my social media to see some of my runs and artworks of cute dancers and dancers. And I think we'll be going to Larissa talking about very slightly more inorganic things. Hey, I hope it's alright. Thank you, Natalia. Before I move on to questions and discussion, we'll move on to our second speaker, who is Larissa would like to begin. Thank you very much for being here, and especially thank you Natalia for an incredible presentation and wonderful introduction to science and art and how they intertwine. I'm Larissa, and I'll be talking to you about illustrating climate science and illustrating and climate science, which is the perfect explanation of what I do. So just about me. Larissa, I'm Dutch, German, and I'm currently glaciologist at the University of Hanover for another month, because I hope to hand in my PhD thesis in a month. And that is large scale glacial modeling. I had a start in climate science, sorry, that is my cat. I had a start in climate science, and then moved on to glaciers because I've always been fascinated by everything ice and snow. And I will return more to climate science specifically with my postdoc, which I will start in April at the Niels Bohr Institute in Copenhagen. So as being a scientist, I am also an artist. I do not have any professional training. I'm just someone who since she was a kid, always felt more comfortable with a brush in her hand. I mainly work in watercolor, but also when I have the space and time on a larger scale and oil paints, and I'm trying to balance my work between sort of what may be considered more traditional art work that you might want to hang up and have as a purely pleasing, aesthetically pleasing piece and illustrations that really tell a story. So this is some of just a few examples of the artwork that I do when I'm not looking at illustrating a certain topic. And as Natalia also explained, art can be an incredible side income, especially as a PhD student. And so I do a lot of work. Like you can see here, this is work for birth cards for wedding invitations. And these are just commissions from people who indeed usually find me by your social media. So that was a great tip from Natalia just before. And rather than diving into the history of art and science communication, which Natalia did wonderfully, I want to talk a little bit to you about why I think that art can be an incredibly powerful tool for communication. Raw science communication, as it is often done by academics, can really spark a lot of negative emotions. As scientists, it is difficult for us to imagine the level of understanding that the public has. And sometimes we either assume knowledge that isn't there, or we tend to feel that we don't want to dump things down, or we want to subconsciously not impress the public by sounding smart and in the end only confusing people. Finally, especially also speaking about climate change, which just is a very broad topic, but it's also one that is goes hand in hand with a lot of very negative emotions. So the science communication about it can really spark fear in the public, which then leads to an urge to ignore it, because we call it in Dutch, putting your head into the sand or, actually the same in English, and it's really a very human instinct to ignore something that you feel you cannot change, and that might negatively impact your life. Also, because it is such a huge thing. Science communication of especially climate change topics can really lead to either feelings of inadequacy, or a very stubborn resistance saying, okay, no, this, this isn't true and the scientists they don't know what they're talking about, which really leads to these myths of being of climate change being a Chinese hoax, etc. I realized that science communication is incredibly difficult. But I do believe that art can really prevent some of these negative issues that I just spoke about because art can spark emotion and talking points. Sometimes it's easier for the public to look at a piece and maybe just think of it. Oh, this is interesting. Oh, this looks pretty. It's easier to talk about a piece of art. It's easier to talk about an illustration rather than a block of text or data points. Also, art can really communicate at different levels, because, for example, the beautiful dinosaur illustrations that Natalia makes, you can put them in front of a variety of audiences, and one can communicate about these pieces at very different levels. A child can just be interested in oh cool that's a dinosaur. Look at the long tail look at the spikes, someone who is maybe not entirely not at all familiar with paleontology but interested in it could say oh, is that really what they used to look like. Look at that beak or look at that skin that looks something like the bearded dragon that we have at home, and someone who might really already be an expert in paleontology can look at the piece of art and say oh look at that detail. That is something I read about. Oh, that is sort of the new consensus of what this what we now think this creature looks like, which is very different compared to 10 years ago. So this is very different than if you just put a paper about the development of that dinosaur in front of people that artwork can really spark communication at different levels. And finally, from art, it art can provide a segue into really deeper subject matter by starting to look at a painting. And from then either talking to the person who made it and may know more about it, it may also just spark an interest and say okay, I'm going to do a little Google search about this when I get home. Oh, I didn't know this, or let's find out about it. Or when your child starts asking questions, going to the Science Museum with you, looking at a piece of art, and you maybe want to be able to answer those questions and find out the answers with them for yourself. So I think that those are some of the reasons that art can be incredibly powerful and incredibly effective as a science communication tool. So I do some of that myself, and I'm going to just introduce a few projects to you that I work on. One of these projects is illustrating journal articles, because journal articles, even though they are often referenced in the science section of newspapers in the news. Still, they are often at a level that is difficult to comprehend for someone who is not trained as a scientist. However, often it is possible to distill the most important part of a journal article, and either put it into one sentence, or put it into a short presentation, which is what a lot of traditional science communicators do. But I also believe that it's possible to distill, for many papers, it's possible to distill the most important message into a piece of art. So these are three examples that I did of papers. One on the left, you see the paper by Bersaggy et al. Carbon stocks in Central African forests enhanced by elephant disturbance. And it's a paper about how important elephants are for the health of Central African forests and how by their disturbance, they actually make sure that the forests can thrive. They tread down smaller plants so that light actually gets to the larger plants and they are not suffocated. And that is what actually keeps the forest alive. I've tried to, in this illustration, show the difference with the line of what can happen if we no longer have these elephants. And I think that this piece is just something that invokes emotion because you have the stark difference of both sides. And I hope that it's also, besides maybe being a grim message, it's also a piece that people do like to look at and say, okay, this is both something aesthetically pleasing and something that informs me. The same goes, I hope, for the other paintings. The second illustration is of a paper by Peter Malnar and his team about fasting season length for polar bears. And it is a paper about the fasting season length and how that connects to sea ice cover and that as sea ice coverage changes in size and in time, how long the sea ice cover lasts. That affects food availability and also fasting season length for polar bears. And thus, because fasting season really impacts the amount of nutrition for polar bears, how they're able to move their population forwards and have the little cute cubs that are on the polar bear mountain's back. And then finally, we have something that is very close to my heart and very close to my research on the right side is an article by Vashti Veiba. And it is how the Vanakfen and Glacier in Austria changed over the years. And I think that is something that is of course often shown in photographs, but with these with painting. It's just a really easy immediate visual tool. Okay, we have had a huge change over the years in the size of this glacier from 1899 to the present day. And it's just something you only look at the picture and you immediately see what's going on. So this is one of the projects that I do. And I have had very positive responses, especially also from the authors who use these images to promote their research to promote their project. The elephant image has been published in a French magazine recently. So it's something that really gets this important research talked about, which I'm very honored to be a small part of. Next, one thing that is close to my heart and I started doing this for the virtual edu in 2021 is illustrating the science scientists behind the science because sometimes, especially in covert times, it felt like science was something that was done from desks sequestered in homes and was very could be very isolating. So this was a project really drawing scientists in asking for volunteers who wanted to be painted blended with their research. So we have Harry's a colari with the moderate glacier. We have Dr Beatriz Cresinos blended with her calving icebergs and Dr Emily Kirchkesna, who does incredible work on observing meteorological and ice processes on Antarctica. And it was a wonderful project because it allowed me to make these scientists a little more visible and to say, okay, this work is done by humans with passion, love doing what they do. And not only the science is important, but also the people behind it. And then finally, a small project, the last one I'd like to introduce to you is the illustrated climate ABC. And it's a project to explain and visualize 26 of the most important terms around climate. So they're paintings and short explanations. And I hope to at some point publish them into a book. Also collaborating with other scientists and taking the very short explanations. So smaller blurbs and have each expert scientist write one page so slightly longer more in depth explanation of the phenomenon. And then we have a book where communication happens at several levels. So, I'm just going to introduce a few of the letters to you. So we have a is for atmosphere piece for biodiversity sees for clouds. thermology. H is for hysteresis. G is for glacier. I is for indigenous knowledge. And I've done a few more letters, but they haven't been digitized yet. I'm still stuck on the letter K, and I'm very open to suggestions for letters. So, please, if you want to put your suggestions in the question box as well. What are the next steps for me personally that might also inspire you if you want to be a science artist or if you want to connect to a science artist. I love to finish the alphabet and get the book rolling. And something that I would love to do is to create at some point a climate science and climate change interactive exhibit, because I think that having these interactive museum exhibits Natalia also talked about them a little bit more can just really inspire the younger generation. Of course, there's a whole bunch of other projects that are in my mind that I might want to do at some point but for now I'm just incredibly grateful that I'm allowed to be a scientist and an artist that I'm allowed to be a small part of other people in science journeys by communicating their research. So, and if you're one of the scientists who wants their research communicated and you think that one of my illustrations may be a good way to do it. Please feel free to contact me. So, thank you very much Simon for the invitation. And we are looking forward to questions. Thank you both. I think a good case has been made for why scientists and researchers should collaborate with artists and community science. So, as you start the discussion and the questions and answers from the audience. Perhaps move towards the more material baseline. You said that scientists are drawn by passion to artists of course, which means both artists and scientists tend to be volunteer the labor volunteer the products of the work. You've got to consider the work of your labor. And there's going to be a boundary way to start going well actually from all this work in the boss who got to live as well. But artists just becomes in the form of commissions. And there's two questions around that topic is as an artist. How do you gauge that worth how do you set that boundary for seeing charging for commissions versus just offering up these passions for your art. And the second question point out is, perhaps more from the science side is if you want to engage with artists and want to get the help of work. Are there any do's and don'ts with working with artists or even the approach network commissions. And that's an open question to people. But if anyone wants to join and jump in first. If you want to engage with artists with something like value in the work, it's coming to what kind of customer it is. So if it's for me, if it's a small NGO or museum of a little funding, and they want to have some science outreach or small school does completely freeze like it's before betterment of the local community, I can spend one hour and just get them something they don't have to pay me but if it's somebody that has a big funding behind the research projects. If it's like a private company, I will really charge them a fee they can afford something that will just compensate for my time I'll be missing for my research. So it really depends on the customer, what the kind of artwork requires it, and it might vary from person to person because we are academics we are busy. It's sometimes hard to just take some time off or even work for weekends to do illustration. So it has to come from how busy we are, and what kind of outreach that work will gift for us and to have other things like illustration for my own research. I do covers for journals I do press release illustrations, but they don't, I don't get paid for them, because it's just something you do for free to make your research stand out. It takes a lot of time, even like making optional covers for a publication that will take at least three days of your work, and you'll need to get paid for it, it will promote a journal you publish to. So it's a weird balancing act of like do you want to spend all of the time on this artwork that might benefit me why not benefit me, or do I not. It's all depends on what kind of time you have and what do you want to get out of it. So I don't know what, what do you think about it. I don't much agree with you I always look at the type of client and at my work. And in a way I think I approach it the same way I do review requests. Because reviews also take up a whole lot of our time as a scientist, but they are for the betterment of the community. And it's something that's important for our work to do because we also get something back. And the same goes for if someone asks me to do a smaller artists commission. If it's indeed a smaller NGO who really just want to promote their work. I know how beneficial it could be for them to have a good logo or to have a nice illustration to go with one of their blog posts. And then I will either charge nothing or something very small. But if it's a larger private company indeed, or a private person saying hey I would like to have a portrait for my house. And, for example, one of the scientists that I illustrated, she said oh I would like a matching portrait for my husband. Also blended with his research. Then I do charge a little bit because it's something that I know they can afford. And so it just like Natalia I make a very much dependent on who is asking, but I would also like to note that valuing my own work, work, valuing my time is something I'm still learning, especially as an artist. So it's something that I feel I'm definitely not the definitive person to ask on, especially if you ask my partner I always undervalue my, my artwork. And it's something that I'm still definitely learning to do. And I think it comes with time and experience. I mean, I guess, I think there's a worth to work, but also realize that a lot of that kind of as those paralyze and you in terms of way to charge it how you draw those boundaries. If posture syndrome, I think is a key word here. Yeah. If I were a scientist trying to approach you both, then I suppose there needs to be some level of software mess of being like if I'm looking for a large vacation company or something, or a large funded project. It's probably a little cheekies thought, asking for perhaps free labor versus a charity based. Yeah. Sure. So it becomes down to that kind of engagement between scientists and artists and see science artists. I just want to pick up on a question about you actually, I think just answered this earlier but I just wanted to bring it out into the forum about illustrating for other scientists. Yeah, I guess it starts from knowing your own strengths and weaknesses. No one can easily draw. And since you cannot really draw easily. So if you're from a less academic background or from an area that's not really the area of expertise, how do you engage with those spaces? So if you're an artist and trying to illustrate for other fields, how is the best way to approach that? So it starts from knowing your own strengths and weaknesses. No one can easily draw. And since you cannot really draw easily. So I remember I was asked to be to draw crinoids and parasitism. I don't know how to draw a crinoid. I know I don't know how to write a parasitic snail. I might learn it, but it will be a steep learning curve and I'll spend more time on this artwork than somebody that is an expert in inventive words. So this kind of thing I might just say to a professional, I will give a quick shot at making a sketch. I'll give you a very quick sample. If you enjoy it, I can take it further, but I recommend other artists you can look forward to. So it's always good to have some kind of backup artist. If somebody reaches out to you and you might feel like, oh, I'm too busy for this. That's a steep learning curve for me. I'm not art style that I'm comfortable with and put them into some different position. For me, I'm certainly more comfortable drawing like pheropods and pterosaurs. So I will happily work in that field, but also happily stretch myself out if I have time and will to do it. And the commissioner is happy with me, sort of experimenting, but that comes with the kind of course because I have no idea. I might accept an illustration of a basil horse, but I have no idea if I'll be happy when it comes out. And the worst thing is, you might carry the illustration and you might completely hate it and then you feel bad for charging anything for it. And it's just the guilt that gets into you and you don't want to engage with anything which happened each time I do a commission to for someone else. And it makes it very, very hard for me to accept commissions from other people, especially for research that I might not be complete an expert in. And sort of that limits my scope. But also like I want to be true to myself, I want to know my strengths and weaknesses, but it's very hard to be self dirt, especially now. It's very hard to be self dirt mental on your art and see that that's a good quality artwork. That's about quality artwork. It's very hard to tell you hate everything. That's the worst thing about it. So like you said, are you nodding? Absolutely. And I think one of the key points that you mentioned here is to really know your own strengths and weaknesses. For example, if anyone asked me to illustrate a pterodactyl, I would refer them to you and say, Okay, this is a much, much better choice of artist than I am. And then again, when if someone came to you maybe with the request for a watercolor glacier, you might say, Well, perhaps not my area of expertise, but I know someone else. So I think it's very important also to be open and honest with your client, when they come to you with a request. They might not know who else is out there. So I think that it's important to be honest and say, Okay, I appreciate you requesting this from me. But if you want the best possible outcome for what you're looking for your project, you might want to ask someone else. Again there, the networking aspect is really important and sometimes you're just the science artists that one person knows. And through your network, you might be able to refer them to someone else. Honestly, I wish there was some kind of big archive of different artists with different art styles and professions so it would be much simpler for somebody to search rather than just go for one and then have a whisper network of leading you to the right person. There are so many artists and they all want to have some work. And they're excellent people but then I went out of order either because they might not be in academia, and they might be in a different country so it would be sort of great as a resource to have like a phone book of different artists and different small portfolios and people say like, I want to have what are called visuals. Here the artist and do it and I think the style of life. Yeah, available this kind of movie super useful. Definitely, but I think for now the best we have is social media. And knowing other people and just being friendly. Like, I know somebody that needs this kind of work. I'm currently busy. I recommend this. I usually like recommending small artists, which has developed themselves usually from developing countries or something like a small commission can really boost them and the confidence and platform and so it's sometimes being an established artist very good to use. Look at people that are few levels below you and it's like, I know how to help this person out to be to this commission, but I can afford you to those people which might really benefit from the same thing. Exactly. So I guess the key takeaways there is be aware of your capabilities and the community around you who can prefer one to do a work in your stead. But also, if you're unsure, it was like something you could engage in. I suppose do like a test or mock up and do those expectations management review on the potential client in terms of what you can do. Communication with the client is key. Yeah. And also, of course, be aware of those self del and judgment but comes along with every real part of the project. So you spoke about networks actually I think that's a good next step to go on to. If you're a scientist looking for artists or perhaps a science artist trying to build up your presence or polio. Is that a best way to do it. You said social media, I guess that's pretty much the key factor. So both scientists and artists. That's how I find myself. My science artist actually. So I guess, do you have any, those thoughts about how to build up a network or polio. I think social media really is key here because if you have, if you make some work that people like, and they might share it. That's how others find you. Also, the companies that I do commissions for, I think 95% of people either find me via Instagram or Twitter. Especially there's a lot of company companies now who sell my artwork as Prince, and that allows me to make passive income, which is just, I would have never had that opportunity had they not found me via Instagram. I think the second thing is, especially if you're a scientist looking. The EU really is a great resource because what you can see is you can have a look at the talks that were given at the past EU GA's and have a look at the science communication session have a look at the abstracts that were the abstracts for presentations in the science communication and the art sessions. If you want to find poetry, have a look at Oh, who was the co convener for the rhyme your research. And these are the people that you might want to connect with, or these are at least the people you know, oh, they might have a network. The co conveners for the art and science session. They might be the people who are able to refer you. So I think, each EU in this term really might be an under a completely overlooked resource in terms of networking. You know, we are showing in a specialized as far and told you there's a lot of poly artists already and they have the network links by a discord channels and social media like Twitter. Also can do it in person in a person's society different because you get to meet person you make the need for lasting impression on them, and a lot of conferences, I love some kind of display area. You have a small display of your network and have small contact details if somebody's interested, and you have people that you know will be within your research area. So it's well a glacial artist will not fit in a political setting, but if I have a paleologist and poly artists, they will go, Oh, I need an artist that specializes in rodents, he's an artist that can do rodents. I'm going to get business cards if I need them I'm going to get in touch. So having a physical presence, I'm going to conferences in person is also very important, and that's how I got some commissions and I know how other people, especially that really established go for so they usually find themselves. It's slightly more pricey special when you're outside of pathology you have to look out of your conference on and pay for arrivals and sales and prints. It's a startup course associated with it and not people and other people have this luxury of, I can easily print a bunch of prints, I can get to a conference in the United States or somewhere in the UK for political association or something, and for advertising myself. It's a startup stuff with social media because there's very minimal things you have to pay for. If you are starting to establish already have all of our force want to showcase and really are dedicated to get getting those customers, find a conference and ask if you can have a stall. And that will sell you can sell your prints over there and also get commissions and establish yourself as a big establish name within the committee for pantologists. And that's like the end line of your establishment, it can start with Twitter, Instagram, and see your following grow if you are friendly and your art is unique enough. You'll definitely find people and people like me and our side for sure we like posting up upcoming artists and showcasing them, because it's, it's, we are not in competition and over everybody draws differently. And we have to have very unique artistic voices, which is great about art. That means nobody stepping on each other's tunes and the more voices we have, the better because that means we can communicate science in very different colors and ways. So we'll quickly come in towards the end, but I'll just time from the warm question. I will also just thank the plug about European Geoscience Union. We do have a general assembly every year in which thousands of scientists and science artists attend we have written artists, we have sessions delegated to communicating science through art. So if you do want to find other artists beyond social media, look at the European Geoscience General Assemblies. There's a long history of science artists engaging them. I think that's pretty much it for questions. We have to wrap up soon. I do have one audience question left about how do bugs kind of protecting and copyrighting artwork versus advertising on social media. Anyone's got anything they can comment on that at all. Yeah, it's, it's, I'm not going to lie, it's difficult. Sometimes people will use your artwork pretending they made it. I have had people contact me later with regrets that was actually one of the most interesting situations where people had gotten my artwork tattooed on them, and then later realized that that was not a great thing to do. People will print T shirts or notebooks with your artwork and sell them. And I at some point have people selling notebooks with my artwork on it on Amazon. And then the only thing you can do is contact Amazon or contact the platform, have them take it down. But I think it's just a risk. It's a risky run. Yeah, you have to decide do you want to be a parent on social media and get those jobs and put your artwork on, or just be transparent and not risk your artwork being stolen, especially a new problem is with the AI art of people just using your art to train algorithms and then replicating your technically copyright free, which happened a lot to some of my pantology friends with the art was being used without the agreement and replicated on different fields so it's a very, very tricky thing I usually when I put them social media is make them very low quality. It hurts, sometimes for people viewing them, but it prevents replication so if somebody wants to get it on thing, it will be just to low quality to do anything. Some people have very big water, watermarks on your artwork, but that sometimes destroys how it looks visually and might, you know, make your artwork look less appealing, but it will prevent stealing. So I would recommend if you follow social media, make it look nice would be slightly pixelated if anybody wants to steal it, it will look horrible and will not be of use on printing on the well just kill. If somebody wants to take it seriously and use it, usefully, you have high definition version of sent to that person, if they're required. So it's a risk worth, I think it's a risk worth taking, but don't get this hard and if you see somebody stealing your artwork using your application, it just happens to all of us. And you can legally block them, you are creator of your artwork, if you can approve it, you in the UK law, you are the creator of it, you own the artwork rights, if you can prove you made it, and then remove anybody commercially using it without your approval, but that might take some back to other channels depending where your artwork is being replicated. Sometimes it's just things stealing artworks by algorithms. So basically this somebody says, oh, I love this design, I love it on a t-shirt, and it's an app that looks at the keyboard, and it copies the artwork and alternately creates a t-shirt on a website somewhere in the developing country of slightly different copyright laws. So it happens, don't tell your followers to not say things like, I would love this as a sticker, I would love this on a shirt, because I'll go from things, things kind of stuff, and just make artificially made products they can be selling. So be aware of that. It's horrible, honestly. Yeah, I feel like that AI art might be a whole new webinar or session in itself at some point. But yeah, so I guess basically, you need to build a community and network as you're trying to become an artist or an artist, but as a juicer, be aware of the content you're sharing, so perhaps reduce the resolution, use watermarks, try and be aware of the copyright laws of the country you're in. And also, by building a community, that's also how you might be able to become aware when your art's being used or misused, and also how you might be able to find ways to counteract that as well. So for now, it's coming close to one hour. I'd like to thank both our speakers, Larissa and Natalia for doing such a passionate and engaging webinar. The recording of this webinar will be on our YouTube channel in one week's time that is at Eurogeosciences and YouTube. So I'd like to thank again both our speakers and for attending these and questions and answers. So thank you and goodbye.