 Welcome back into the original gangsters podcast. I am your host Scott Bernstein along with my co-host co-conspirator partner in crime the doctor Jimmy Bucci Lotto Hi, everyone. Hey now and there's our producer Ben behind the glass on the wheels of steel He's the lifeblood of this programs. We always give Benny his props today. We have We know where we're called the OG podcast and today we have the OG when it comes to Criminal defense law in the state of Michigan in the city of Detroit Steve Fishman is a legend He is a he's a walking talking history book has been practicing since the 1970s and Has been involved in so many Major headline grabbing cases you talk to people around the area That they don't need the services of a criminal defense attorney and and Steve literally walks on water Steve. Thank you for joining us That's a pleasure to be here So Steve is represented like I said almost Every, you know has from every major era of the Detroit kind of Gangland underworld the drug industry Dating back to probably the mid 70s Steve is Represented quite a few of these You know compelling Street legends and and guys that are you know the guys whose name still ring From east side to west side You know in in the streets of Detroit and when people are talking about historically. I want to just you know start We're gonna kind of start from the back and and then go Sorry I started the front and then go back to and push forward Steve represented had had a Some representation in the Black Mafia family case back in 2005 operation Motor City Mafia Terry Flannery Southwest T and his brother Demetrius big Meach Flannery and Steve will tell you that he is he's actually the second Meach He's not the original Meach Regional Meach in Detroit was Demetrius Holloway. We'll get to him in a little bit, but uh, they called him big Meach They called him Meach. Okay, his name was Demetrius so a lot of his his nickname amongst his friend was Meach, okay, and You know Demetrius Flannery became the more I guess, you know globally is more known as big Meach But locally Demetrius Holloway probably still holds the title for that nickname, but uh, you know Terry Was the the number two defendant in the case Only almost 200 co-defendants biggest domestic drug trafficking case in American history and Terry was represented by Steve for some of the case and let's just jump right into it Steve What were your impressions of Terry Flannery? He's been out of prison now for about two years and trying to you know keep his nose clean and No, there's there's some talk about whether or not he'll appear at a federal trial and in the in the winter But what but that that's neither here nor there? I don't know anything about that Whatever is going on now. I met Terry long before he was indicted Really good guy easy to deal with smart Low-key wasn't anything like what it appears his brother was like I never met his brother in life because I think he was already down south somewhere maybe in Atlanta and You know, I represented some other guys that Were supposed to be affiliated with Terry and them I don't think I ever heard the phrase black mafia family certainly didn't hear it when I first knew him I was introduced to him by another guy that was a friend of his it was from Southwest as well And we got along very well. We always did I thought he's I still think he's a really good guy Not a violent guy not a guy that walked around woofin and talking shit all the time and then they got indicted and As often happens when people get indicted Sometimes their outlook changes and particularly that's the case if they haven't been in Jail before I haven't been in prison before I haven't been charged with anything before When Terry was indicted he had never been arrested at least as far as I can recall And it never spent a night neither of them had really much of a criminal record or had served any Significant jail time and again keeping my I didn't even know that his brother existed when I first met Terry And I didn't know anything about all this black mafia What's interesting is it interested in your it was interesting to look at it from a you know Jimmy and I kind of look at things from a social academic perspective, but I'm interested in your take on this It kind of like what we said about the nickname Black mafia family was a much much bigger deal outside of Detroit than it was in Detroit despite the fact that it was Based in Detroit, but but I'm not so sure it was really based in Detroit I mean, I think just from what I learned with the discovery when I was involved in the federal case You know, I think his brother went down to I guess it was Atlanta And made a lot of noise and had signs and all this kind of stuff And if there's one thing for sure if you want to get white people's attention particularly law enforcement's attention Put up a big bunch of billboards. Yeah start talking shit on television and radios, right? Because you'll get their attention Which is what happened the last people's attention you want to get right are those kind of people the guys who really Knew what they were doing kept a lower profile kept their mouth shut and Eventually everybody winds up getting caught sometimes. It's not a humble But when you do it to your own self, which is really the way it looked to me. Yeah, I'm looking at that That's what happens Steve. I mean, it's not there's no really like there's no way to massage the facts and I know Demetrius I know Terry I've talked to both of them at length about this and you know, it's it is what it is I mean Demetrius owns up to it now that his behavior was was you know negligent Yeah, but but the real question is is what was he thinking then he said well We I'll tell you what he says now he says I was too messed up on drugs to really be thinking straight Okay, it's possible, but I I get the feeling when people do stuff like that they're too messed up on ego Yeah, well that's part of it and running around as part of who has the who has the biggest dick and all that kind of That's but that still exists today with big rush Well that again, I don't I still never talking about the the the case the the legal Machinations I'm talking about in pop culture In America in the world of hip-hop Demetrius Flannery and to a lesser degree Southwest T are godlike figures Well, yeah, again not having met him. I I can't imagine that they're brothers It seems like they're a hundred years apart. I mean why they have always gotten along They haven't always seen I die and right now they're not on speaking terms Well, you know the again going by the discovery in the case and the indictment If I were in Terry's shoes being here being kind of quiet nobody was making a lot of noise around here We didn't have very many cases around here And if I wound up doing the kind of time he wound up doing because somebody was making a lot of noise down south I don't know that I'd be the happiest guy on the planet either. Yeah. Well, there's no question that Even though Demetrius wasn't caught any wiretaps the way that Terry was There's no question that Demetrius's behavior and being so brazen and so audacious and Taunting I mean out route outright taunting The authorities I mean they they put up one of those infamous billboards across the street from the Atlanta DEA office Yeah, so it's like you can only poke the bear So much until they're gonna come after you and Terry like Steve referenced, you know Yes, Terry was caught on tapes talking about what Demetrius was doing down south But Terry was known as this is the stealthy one the one that kept his head down the one that He didn't really know about the way you knew about Demetrius and that was Orchestrated that was by by plan Terry didn't want people to know who he was No, he just wanted to be on billboards. I didn't even know about Terry until yeah, the book came out and you're reporting I mean, you knew Meach was just from pop culture I didn't I didn't even know he had a brother Because we choose the one who's getting shouted out in every rap song, right? You know every day of the of the week for you know 15 17 years after they were arrested no one shouts out Southwest T They're shouting out Meach. Yeah, it's funny when you say Southwest T The first time I saw that phrase was in the indictment. Yeah, I never heard anybody call Terry that I certainly never called him that He was just Terry Flannery to me and all of a sudden he was Southwest T You know, we've talked a lot about in past episodes when you're you know breaking down, you know from a criminal aspect that there are certain You know X factors With a criminal and in the same way there are certain X factors with an attorney like we say, you know To be a successful criminal or to be a successful mobster a lot of times You need to be no feared beloved and respected in the legal profession a lot of times You're either a guy that's known as great in a courtroom and as someone that's great in front of a judge in front of a jury and And then there's also attorneys that are known as great negotiators great wheelers and dealers and you're You're like the perfect package You're someone that can do both and do it at an incredibly high level Was that something that was you know a plan to like kind of have that, you know Hybrid nature to what you do. Well, I don't I don't think I know you just made a distinction as if there's Trial people and then there's wheeler dealers. If you're gonna do what I do and what those of us who do criminal stuff We've been doing it for many years. You have to do all of those things. You got to keep in mind Scott There's not a very high percentage of cases that go to trial right now a very small back then a Lot higher percentage went to trial because you didn't have Facebook you didn't have cameras all over the place and basically if a guy was charged with a homicide and If he killed a shithead not somebody's grandmother or some eight-year-old Then you have some other shithead who's the witness against him He's easy to cross-examine because he's a street guy and for people like Otis Culpeper and I we knew all the street stuff And all the jury had to think about was do I believe this guy beyond a reasonable doubt and most of the time When oh and I tried those murders we won but now there's gonna be video showing the guy running He's he's an idiot like a lot of these young guys That what I call the CSI effect where you have all these people that have watched all these procedurals that helps you guys I I don't know. I don't go to state court anymore. I just got tired of it. Yeah But no, I think those things hurt the government I really do because it's the bar gives the higher threshold anybody. I don't watch television Okay, I don't other than the ball game So I don't know anything about any of these things But I have heard from prosecutors particularly federal prosecutors that they've had cases where Sometimes they've lost them even which in general they don't do over there and that too often But they've had cases where the jurors are expecting things that are just completely insane But where do they get it? They watch TV But if they're not if people aren't smart enough to know whether it's watching this crazy show where beaches kid is on Yeah, this is black mafia family show. This is TV. This is not real life You know, they try to make pretend it's real life and a lot of people keep in mind There's a ton of people The reason all this stuff has so much popularity the reason you guys have been able to make a living out of gangster crap tons of people really Love gangster shit. You know why number one they Deep down kind of wish God I wish I had the balls to do that kind of stuff because no one Nobody has more balls than dope dealers. Why because they know there's no tomorrow There's no concept of tomorrow or next week the next day could be you get nailed and in the old days over 650 You can get life even now you can get 20 or you get shot Which is basically what happens to most of the guys. Yeah, either they go to the penitentiary or they go to boot hill So when people they like to watch it But most people got enough sense not to get involved in it because you're only going to one of those two places at The end of the day, but it's obvious the attraction of this between the movies the TV shows this show Who the hell should give a shit what happened back in 1982 with Demetrius Holloway and Clifford Jones? I mean who cares, but there are a lot of people they care people stop me I get stopped I can't tell you I'm getting gas and a brother will come up. Hey, man. Ain't you fishman? Yeah, man, come on. You got to take a selfie with me Why we see man you represented my uncle in 1981 and bother and I'm looking like man, that's 40 years ago And we can jump into one of his most famous clients it so I don't think I've told you this Steve I had some correspondence probably in the last year to 18 months with Demetrius Holloway's Widow who is not a big fan of mine and she made that very clear really I don't remember you telling me that and sent me some some choice words and and I a and I have no problem Being on the receiving end of it and I have no problem engaging with those type of people But she was basically saying exactly what Steve just said I don't understand what people still are talking about this and why people care and I wish you guys would just shut up and let You know Demetrius's memory you know Be what it is and not glorify I hear that from a lot of the Italians to like the relative I'm not saying you person just saying that's a sentiment that I've heard and I don't Like I know Demetrius Jr. But I know a lot of people that know Demetrius Jr. And I've interacted with him once or twice. So here's the thing. She's right Well, I don't know what choice word she said, but she's right. I said I said he's absolutely right She's a good person. She lost her husband while she was pregnant with her son Yeah, when it happened it happened. It was so crazy, you know where it happened and all that that kind of stuff and She's absolutely right that was 32 years down for God's sake and and I can tell you she was pregnant and Then she gave birth to the boy and when my son was in high school He comes and he tells me he was playing And he said he said dad he said did you know a guy named Demetrius Holloway? I said, yeah, I knew him really well He says I think I've been playing with his son His son is a great kid and my son and his son are friends to this day He went his son went to and over which is I've heard that he's a great He's a regular kid nothing like and quite frankly what his mother's saying I'm sure that Demetrius Junior would say the same thing except he's younger and he's not gonna you know nuts on you Here's a kid. He wasn't even alive He didn't know his dad when his dad was alive and now he's got to listen to this kind of shit Right and talking about stuff that happened 34 years ago. So she's right I can tell you that and I that's why I have no problem Taking those phone calls and and interacting with those type of people over messenger or email I don't necessarily blame them for how they feel, but they mean the only thing I'll you know Will say about specifically something like Demetrius Holloway is yeah, there's some baked in inherent negativity and and you know a dark narrative, but Something like him. I mean my reporting and my writing has been pretty I Pretty reverential like I'm telling everyone what a big deal this guy was how beloved he was how so it's not like I'm out here You know trashing him. No, I think but that's look at Meach was a great guy And if he had gone into something different if he hadn't been raised Yeah, rough like he wasn't if he hadn't gone to jail for stealing He could have been a CEO of a corporation. He had charisma. He had the ability didn't drink or use drugs He had the ability to lead it like a lot of guys that I represented that were in that business And had he been in a different situation in a different time, he would have been a regular person I think what one what she's saying is that it's because no matter how quote Reverential you want to be about it all that it's being brought up in relation to his drugs and drug dealing Yeah, and Meach was a great guy. We we had we went to fights together. We we did a lot of stuff together Obviously, we didn't do it. I didn't do any of the things that he was doing it That led to his device also be clear. He although the feds were building a case He was never indicted for on a drug conspiracy. Well, it wouldn't have been too long No, they wouldn't hit him he was killed in the fall of 90 It would have it would have dropped either by the end of 90 or or by I don't know if they were that close But they were already yeah, there was a grand jury. They were already doing doing stuff with him And you know he got a lot of time and he had a very I also want to point out when we're talking about it And Jimmy, I want you to chime in here, you know for someone who's legacy and memory and Reputation stretches so wide, you know like we're saying 32 years later people still talk about him and in a similar way They talk about Demetrius Flunnery nationally Demetrius Flunnery had a fifth was I was out and about for 15 years Demetrius Holloway had a five-year run of when of notoriety So I mean it was relatively small From the time that the public became aware of who Demetrius Holloway was and when Demetrius Holloway died well Unless you know it's a long time ago He came home. I think it was 85 That seemed like it was before but maybe not He came home and he had a pistol case and he was it come home from the feds I think he had done he did some time for a bank robbery or a car I don't know if it's stealing from boxcars. Yeah, I thought it was but in any event It was like a train robbery. Yeah, but I mean The train stops and get boxcars. I mean it was a whole thing was a bunch of crap But he came to see me I didn't know him and nobody knew him and he said he had this pistol case fell in possession in front of Judge Woods and He had heard about me and he wanted me to represent him and he did not have Much money at all and so I and I didn't charge a whole hell of a lot of money Then I didn't I don't charge a whole hell of a lot of money to this day But in any event I told him a fee and he said well, I only have X but don't worry. I'll pay you and he did a little bit here a little bit there and we went to court jury trial in front of George Woods and He was found that guilty And then if that was 85, maybe it was 85 Two or three years two years later That's people are talking on in the streets about Demetrius Howler Demetrius Howler I'm thinking the guy who had the gun who had to bring in the money, you know every week or ten days And that was him We never We took a plea once we won that case federal court We won a jury trial in state court where they planted drugs on him They stopped him for a traffic stop and planted some small amount of drugs It was a joke and he was more bit me in terms of image. He was more businessman than b-boy I mean he dressed in three-piece suits. Yeah, I don't have three-piece suits But yes, he was he wasn't one that was running around with a gold chain and that no no Wasn't he wasn't that way at all. Yeah, and then the only thing we ever can't say we lost the case we pled guilty to a ticket in state court cursing in front of children He was yelling and screaming at somebody and there were a bunch of school kids there And they gave him a ticket that we were guilty of and he paid his five hundred dollar fine But the real charges we won the federal trial and we won the state trial And then they were getting the big federal case together and he like me like the gamble The gamble you like to go on these we like to gamble in the city and in Vegas and these guys gambles like crazy people But it wasn't illegal and they were very cool And Demetrius and his group of guys, you know grew up with Tommy herns and a lot of those Cronk Jim Boxers so they were like his aunt they were like Tommy's entourage at a lot of those was he close with the Daryl chambers I don't remember. Yes. We talked about that. I can't remember Steve we can talk about that trial in a little bit Steve was didn't represent Daryl He represented Daryl's co-defendant and got Daryl off and I talked to Daryl on a lot of different occasions No, I got his his co-defendant was Donald Daryl Curry the way the way champion. Yeah, yeah, and he was found that guilty Right, you got him off. I got him off now. Daryl had no right Daryl I whenever I've seen Daryl the case was overwhelming against him, but I said to Daryl and Daryl I don't want to speak for Steve But Daryl told me that he helped Donald pay some of his legal bills So I'm like Daryl you should have been paying for Steve to be your turn right now No, no, he had a he had a wonderful he had Jim Howard says the case was impossible It was impossible a guy had set him up whose last name happened to be curry or chambers right guys name was Chambers He was a paid informant. Yeah We had Daryl in here yeah former dope dealer and then he was taping them Yeah, and the guy testified against Donald Curry as well, but he didn't have curry was there There's a lot of kilos. He was there, but they really never were able to show that he was part of the And I you know we talked about it with Daryl and I'm let's just get kind of we can deal with another Good dude. Yeah. Oh, he's an excellent guy. You know if it wouldn't have been for herons You know, he was like 17 and 2 or yeah, but herons and Hilmer Kenty and Milton McCrary where they you know They were world champs Daryl was a hell of a fighter. Yeah, hell of a fighter and I I'm of the belief and I want to get Steve's take on this that Because You had a lot of guys that were from the drug world that were hanging around Cronk and some of those fighters He had a target on their back. You had you know, we can talk about that. We've talked about this before with the flenaries We have African-American men making a lot of money and having a lot of power that scares people Those guys those guys are black guys. They weren't any any Kenyans or anything. They weren't Africans. They were black guys No African Americans. I don't use that phrase. Okay black guys. Sorry And I thought he meant they were from no, no, no, I'm saying that the government Wanted to jam up Tommy and Emanuel. Yeah, they suspected that Tommy and Emanuel were taking money from Demetrius Howie, Maserati, Rick, Daryl chambers and helping them, you know, launder that money and they couldn't end up They didn't end up getting Tommy or Emanuel. So they jammed up Daryl. No, no, that's Look, Emanuel neither Emanuel Stewart nor Thomas Hearns as far as I'm concerned We're ever involved in anything having to do with drugs and you're right It's because they were black guys and because these were guys from their neighborhood and unfortunately Unfortunately just because guys become deal dealers doesn't mean they're not gonna want to hang around with people I'm not saying they were laundering money. So I'm saying the there were FBI investigations into those guys I don't know about that. There were rumors all the time. Yeah, Thomas Hearns was making him He was the welterweight change in the world Emanuel Stewart had a stable of and Emanuel lived a quite normal life. I mean Emanuel was one of the greatest guys You ever met in your life. So I don't think I think that was just look one of my guys got arrested one time this is in the 80s when you know, the 80s world was a little crazier and He gets arrested by the feds and he comes You know, they let him go and he calls me says man says, I don't know what's wrong with these guys I said, what are you talking about? He said they told me they brought me and they said look, you know We don't we don't care anything about we want you to tell us about Fishman and The guy said Fishman, what do you want me to tell him about him? He's my lawyer He's a lot of people's like said no, no, he's he's around with all those guys all the time He must be bankrolling them or something like that and blah blah blah your bruised collar They were talking about you know because I think they thought because they thought I was a white guy Yeah, you know, and I got a white face, but I'm not any white guy never have been So he he looked at him and he said they kept on pressing him and he said You're completely crazy. I've known the guy since I was young and he was a younger lord I say he says to them. He says you want to follow him around? I'll tell you what you'll see you'll see him go to the bar and then you'll see him go to the gym And shoot baskets if you want to go play three on three with them you can do that But but that's how they think it's that's how you gotta understand how white people are Yeah, I mean white people are always been like that if you're around if you're But they think so white guy and you're around black people or if you're somebody like Thomas earns or or me And you're you know in the sports world and you're around guys that he knew him their whole life Right, you know you have to be careful Obviously, and I know there I can I'm not gonna say who but a very good friend of mine It was a very big-time basketball player who came up rough. He had to tell guys Look fellas, we're okay and all but no you can't stop by that I know I'm not gonna ride in the car with you I told my own son at Cranbrook for God's sake before he let anybody get in the car fucking search them In case they got a weed or they got a pistol or they like to get high on something Don't let him in your car because you know these cops out there in Southfield And especially you have to go to Cranbrook. They don't love nothing more than you stop a kid like mine. He's me black Yeah, he's a great basketball player, and it's my son They would love to mess with them you gotta think like white people if you're gonna be out there and get get back That gets back to Meach the big Meach He I guess he's told you this he should have been thinking ahead of time. Look who I'm trying to fuck with These are the people who run this country. These are the people that I mean slavery was what they did to you guy to us They had 12 years the whatever It steves right what he said at the beginning of the interview about they haven't always been known as black mafia family That's a moniker that really took Form at the very very end of their run and through most of their run. They were just the Flannery brothers I don't think they had branded themselves the way that they're branded now But I don't think Terry ever branded himself yet. Well now Terry's brand himself. We can get into the Popular TV show Terry has an offshoot that he calls 263. Yeah the 263 crew, which is an offshoot of BMF. Whatever Selling gear right now. Yeah, that's what I mean six three gear and he's telling two six three weed Hey, ma'am to pass off to Terry for trying to be the entrepreneurial When he's gotten out of but he's similar again. He's another guy. He was a good leader He's smart had he done something very networked and had he had the Entry see that's the other thing that people don't like to talk about particularly white people You know a guy like Maserati Rick. He was a pain in the ass in a certain way, but he was he had leadership qualities He was smart. It was nice looking. He was athletic The problem is is that a lot of the most of these guys that we're talking about They never had any entree into the white world. They were they were raised where they were raised They were around who they were around and they never had the opportunity, you know People like to say oh he should have gone and done this Yeah, it's easy to say but if you're 16 and all you're seeing around you is criminality and guys are robbing boxcars are doing Whatever the hell they're doing. This is what you wind up doing And then once you get caught once and now you get a record now What are you now? You're just another brother from the streets and got a record. It's it's it's just not as simple But what I was what I'm saying though is that for 12 13 years they existed and nobody knew who the hell they were and For whatever reason Demetrius decided There's no reason to be the biggest drug kingpin in America unless people know that I'm the biggest drug king in America And then he goes on a PR campaign and brands himself and his group black mafia family And then in less than two years it all comes crumbling down and you had just spent over a decade being able to do what you did Silently and successfully and you flip the boat. That's that's the nature of the beast Unfortunately is that too many people now. He's not done There are other guys who were involved in drugs that knew how to keep it quiet and didn't make a big deal didn't dress up fancy didn't Drive around in fancy cars, but those people wanted to not get caught. Yeah, I mean beach I would guess if you really asked him straight up He had to know he was gonna get caught and it didn't bother him because it was worth it Yeah, to be what he was What I've learned I'm also interested to get your take on this. I've learned that a lot of very very successful Criminals even in some cases sophisticated criminals have a difficult time Really understanding what a conspiracy is They have a difficult time. Yeah and go on Google and read about it. I'm just telling you Demetrius I think was of the opinion. Yes, I'm gonna have to go to prison for some period of time But Demetrius didn't realize the extent of that conspiracy even though there was no violence And even though Demetrius himself was not caught with any drugs The extent of that conspiracy was so big that he was looking at a life sentence So when he copped a plea to 35 years to him He didn't understand the number and what I'm like, well, that's just it's the law. It's it's the cons It's the way that a conspiracy is built It doesn't matter if you didn't touch drugs doesn't matter if you didn't commit any acts of violence I have a hard time Agreeing with the notion that guys involved in the drug scene at that level don't understand that never heard People go into prison for conspiracy. I'm not saying that they don't understand what a conspiracy is I'm saying they don't understand the fundamentals that It ain't five years. It ain't ten years. This these are Basketball sentences as they say these are 50 60 70 year sentences not baseball sentences five there's Original sentences Terry got 30. They got they got 30. I think it was 30. I think it was 30 They copped the third those sentences were and at that time Those were the highest sentences that I had heard of yeah, just a drug case, right? No dead people right and part of it Yeah, I don't know I can't say I got off the case and I don't know how it worked there. I know For sure the Terry Flannery would have got less than that Had I stayed on his case? Yeah, because there was no reason for him to get that kind of time There really wasn't I mean it was a lot of drugs almost all the big drug conspiracies. There's a lot of drugs, but in neither case throughout that entire 185 person case 137 counts neither Demetrius nor Terry were ever caught with drugs or in the possession of drugs or anywhere near where there were Drugs, well, I thought me just mansion. They found Dope didn't they they found in Atlanta like ledgers and they found some Residue you got you got to keep in mind what everybody forgets what everybody forgets about federal cases It's like what you guys asked me the last time about pony down in the YBI It's not the drugs. It's they'll have drugs. They found what 250 keys out in LA somewhere in a garage or so They'll have drugs they don't need to catch the kingpins with drugs on them because when will the kingpins ever have drugs? I mean if I had to argue it to a jury as a prosecutor, I would say ladies and gentlemen the jury Do you seriously think the Terry Flannery's carrying around kilos? That's why he's got all these other guys That's why there's 76 people or 26 people sitting at this table because Jones over here and Smith over there They're the Shleppers. They're the ones carrying the drugs what matters is and what people don't understand It's the wiretaps that get them. Yeah, and it's the snitches that get them They find drugs they find enough drugs in each one of these cases and they find huge amounts of money or jewelry You got to remember when Terry was arrested Terry and Demetrius They're their account interest on them Terry is forget that Terry is stopped in a vehicle They got three million dollars of jewelry worth a jewelry Yeah, and now what exactly is the explanation for that when you haven't had any going to a young GZ Yeah, I understand that video shoot, right But whose jewelry wasn't there and then where did it come from right the jewelry went to jail Right the guy from New York He went to jail But the point I'm saying is that for people to pretend that the only way you can get guys who are big shots in the drug Businesses by catching in with drugs that's never gonna happen because once you're a big shot You never touch the drugs, right? It's the conspiracy that gets them every time and a conspiracy is nothing more than an agreement Yeah to do something illegal We all agree to sell drugs this guy picks them up this guy takes them to the houses This guy sits in the house and sells them dime bags at a time or whatever and I'm the boss and I collect money That's a conspiracy and it's a very easy case to prove. I'm also surprised at how many criminals don't completely understand that Just having a certain amount of cash on you is illegal whether or not well wait. No, no, it's not illegal It's that in effect in the most Immortal testimony. I think I've ever heard in court. Meach and I Demetrius Holloway and I are Fighting a forfeiture case in front of Judge Michael Talbot who was no friend to defendants And they found about 95,000 in Meach's trunk. No drugs. No nothing and 95,000 was it bundles kind of in his 20s And there were some a lot of hundreds do but and they just claimed because he was Demetrius Holloway And they brought it gotta be a legal money that it's gonna be illegal money and Meach testified and he was a great witness And he testified and Talbot leaned across and said well, Mr. Holloway, you know, you had 95,000 dollars in your trunk and Meach looks at him. He says well judge. I don't know. There was any law against carrying money and Talbot's kind of went okay The money itself is not illegal Demetrius have said that was money that I was Going to Vegas with no, of course. He said he might it was money And we lost in the trial court and we won in the court of appeals, but then he got killed and then the money I don't remember where it went didn't go to my pocket. I know that but my point is is that money in and of itself There's no real charge for unless it's counterfeit for having money It's that it's the possession of that amount of money that lends credence to their argument that he's a dope dealer because he Doesn't work. We checked his internal revenue service things. He's never filed income taxes. He doesn't work And so and I think what's 67,000 or 670,000 the Holloway case and this might be also difficult for his family to digest, you know, this part of the reporting I've done it is that this wasn't a situation with Demetrius being killed because there was some rivalry or War with the best friends or a war with Maserati Rick You know that some of the rumors, you know, this was and we're not gonna get in specific but this was people that he was friends with from childhood that were locked up in prison that felt like they deserve the piece of his Business and and he wouldn't give them that piece of his business and that's why ultimately the Milton brothers Killed Demetrius Holloway at the Broadway in broad daylight and you know, October of 1990 So why is that sensitive to his family? Because when you find out that it was your friends that killed you as opposed to your enemies Well, well, it depends that how you refer to him as friends, right? Nobody's a friend of anybody's if they have someone killed, right? so And I think this can we're all over the place, but Steve's got such a rich Tapestry to paint from when we're talking about his career a lot of those guys And this was all in the mid-80s early 90s were guys that had come up in the 70s under Frank Usher and that whole group Or had when they were teenagers the younger guys they were in that orbit Would you say that? No, I don't know anything about that. I mean, I represented Frank. I got his murder conviction reversed. I Got him the New trial we went to trial. We got the murder count dismissed. We made a deal pled to accessory after the fact which is all he was right And I honest to God never I never had any conversation. I represented his son in federal court Once but it's small amounts and I don't think anything to do with his dad These are all e-siders Well Frank was from Frank was a west sider. He was he was northern he was a north-end guy He was a he was kind of all over the place. No, but I mean he grew up in a no sure. Okay. Yeah I don't know anything about any of the younger guys Me each or you meet you meet usher once he's in prison. I Meet Frank usher. I walked into the courtroom when he was on trial for the murder and the beheadings Yes, so just to give people so whatever year that we've discussed this on the on the podcast before Frank usher was the you know the highest profile drug kingpin in Detroit in the late 70s He had an organization that was known as murder row If you if you study the case and you get into the case file and you read the police reports It's clear as day that he was a victim or an attended victim of what became to know what? Became to be known as the Michigan Democratic social club massacre triple beheading But he was actually charged and convicted of it while the people that were the masterminds of it were acquitted And he was serving a life prison sentence and Steve I handled his appeal got him or handled his retrial no, no, I got I handled an appeal and Set aside his conviction But the you know that that case When you say I mean the one guy who was acquitted Doc Holliday, yeah, but he was on a mastermind He yeah, I in the situation. I have a hard time using the word mastermind for something as ridiculous as that, but the Doc got his though. He was sitting in a bar on Linwood and somebody came up Three years later with a hundred dollar bill in his hand. Yeah, he was He was something that guy I think I've told you this part and then I'm gonna sleep and I'll send it back to you that when I was going through the police reporter going through the case file Your name comes up in the day or two before the massacre Because you were representing or gonna represent cool cat. What happened was cool cat was Frank Usher's right hand I'm not saying that either and I don't agree with the stuff about murder Inc. I murder row I don't remember anything like that. Okay. I don't remember that when I mean I was My position has always been simple if Frank Usher had been just Frank Usher He would just been another guy that people talked about but he was Frank But they nicknamed him Frank Nitty and everybody of my age group watched the untouchables That's all we did on Thursday night at 9 30. I'll watch the untouchables and Bruce Gordon played Frank Nitty Yeah, and that that I always thought I used to tell Frank that all the time How'd you ever get stuck with that funny? Well that I don't know How'd you get stuck with that nickname because that's why everybody talks about him all the time so You know when when he Whatever it was called it was an organization it was a black mafia So what happened was a couple days before this where obviously I didn't know James Elliott from Adam's house cat but He I don't remember if he came or what he was a girl one of the women who got killed. Yeah was in my office To hire me to talk to me about the possibility representing. Yes. I thought it was James Elliott Nobody told me he was cool cat Elliott And I can't remember if he was locked up at the time. This was so like I want to say The murders took place on July 18. This was within July. No, this was like July 15 It was a short period of time because cool cat got locked up on like the 14th Okay, so that cool cat getting locked up so that he was locked up. So they came she came to see me I think I gave her a price They were gonna come back to me because I didn't go to I wasn't gonna go see him You know unless let's they decide they wanted to hire me and I had her name was like Joanne Clark that was her name Joanne Clark and So I'd written down her name I think her girlfriend came or somebody with a net the other victim and then I didn't think anything about it like three days later Because whoever drove the truck leaves the doors open or something and they go in and they print it in the newspaper There have been these three people found who were beheaded and one of the name was Joanne Clark and then Can't remember what happened holiday who was Frank's friend turned rival Uh Was waiting for a cool cat to be off the street for him to strike out against Frank nitty. I don't know how that I know that nobody could nobody trusted that holiday But it wasn't a coincidence. I'm saying it wasn't a coincidence that it happened when he was cool cat gets locked up on Monday And people are getting beheaded on Thursday Well, I know and I don't remember when It was it was long after that he came to see me and he had a Situation in front of judged Leonard Townsend I'm sure or no no James. He was cool. By then I knew he was cool cat, right and He came to see me. He was a very tough guy And I said well, I don't want to do anything. I think he might have had a warrant outstanding Capious a benchmark or something and he didn't want to go in unless he knew we could resolve it didn't want to go get locked up He said if that's the case, I'll just stay out here and I went to talk to the judge and It was not unusual at all in those days. It was a small case So it wasn't murder. It was just a pistol or something and Leonard looked at it And he said oh, he says just tell the guy come in. I'm gonna give him probation I'll give it to him the same day in those days. You could you didn't even have to go to Probation and I remember Elliot came back to see me and because I wouldn't I didn't take a penny farm before I said I want to see what we can do and so I told him You know, it'll be whatever the fee was and Everything's all set and he looked at me and I could see how he was what they said he was because he looked at me I don't think he wanted that look to be on his face, but it was and he just said something like are you sure? And I looked at him as you know from me telling you before I'm not scared of these guys And I looked at him. I said even with that look on your face I'm still sure and I don't know if he really believed it just because guys in the streets are naturally suspicious And we walked in there and you could tell he was kind of you know, did it Leonard called the case boom boom boom at mr. Elliot's in even I I can't remember what excuse I give it He's here. Let's take a plea boom boom boom and we walked when we walked out his face relaxed And he said, yeah, you were right. I said well Knowing who you are. I don't really think it would have been very smart for me to tell you something wasn't so do you And he just looked and laughed and the next time I saw him They brought him in to testify in the usher retrial, which he didn't say really much of anything and they really didn't have I think it was just a Bad set of circumstances how he got convicted the first time there was like four or five different trials from all Well, they co-defendants He was on trial. Yeah, I walked in there when he was on trial Alan early was representing him Can't remember if he was on by himself. I know red and lefty party I think went to trial together red walked and lefty got convicted lefties one of the oldest prisoners Yeah, he's like right now at NDOC I'm hoping to one day get him on this podcast. We got a rain, you know I Line it with the the prison calls. I think I think he's he's he's kind of Frank So my cousin and lefty party were first cousins cousins. Yeah, I think I told me that one Their mothers were twin sisters. I Never I never met I met red. So lefty. So Lefty's I'm not excusing lefty party I've got to know him a little bit these last I'd say five years I'm sure this guy was a bad motherfucker back in yeah, I know but you don't need to do 60 years for this guy Is sitting here holding the bag still, you know 40 plus years later For something that he was a mere pawn on a on a chessboard for And again, I'm not I'm sure he's got a lot of body was a convict. He was convicted of the triple beheading First-degree murder they were charged with in the counts of first-degree murder And red Freeman was acquitted of all of them that holiday was acquitted of all of them shardy fountain They really was just a guy who swept up or after the thing and then Frankie eventually He did he had fed time. He had to do anyway. So he really didn't do left an extra day For the state court case and left. He's been sitting there. I mean, it's ridiculous. He's in his 80s. What the hell he's like Yeah, he's like he's in a wheelchair They let read out, you know red guy so red life. He got out red got out a couple years ago I went and met at least a couple years had lunch with him. He uh, he was uh, someone that I can tell Has had some reflections and I'm not uh I'll share this one part of our conversation that I thought was um Pretty compelling. Uh, he said there was a point in time in my life where I thought killing people was cool Um or thought that made me cool Well, he he did what people don't realize about about red Freeman Is that he was not out of jail very often. He went to prison when he was young No, that's the end. He went to prison when he was young if you if you looked at his record with the b.o.p. When he was in When he went when he got out, he really was not out of jail very often And what they finally got him it went back in front of Talbot again. He had a pistol I think he was on livernary if if i'm not mistaken in seven miles I'm not mistaken right in my neighborhood And he went in front of Talbot And it was just a pistol five-year max except he was an habitual fourth Which can put it up to life and Talbot gave him life I'll bet that's never happened in the state of michigan. I don't know and his real name is james hill And he'll tell you that it'd be like Red Freeman is just an alien. He's my real name is james hill. Well, I think he was doing his time as james hill freeman I think I'm pretty sure but he was one of doc holidays guys. How do you That's another part of the story that's still kind of a mystery all these years later as who was aligned with who right because party was usher's cousin and Both party and red were supposed to be Aligned with usher, but they Ended up on doc, but nobody knows the holiday side of nobody knows that certainly when I tried the case Before we got so a lot of questions about this case. Yeah, I mean, I don't think you can say anything for sure when I tried the case my Way of presenting it to the jury was this was all doc holidays doing Because there were a couple people that were in the room. I don't remember their names obviously that flipped that turn Well, I wouldn't call it flip But I got them to admit that I remember saying that what there was one of them was uh, uh, um a doorman He was in his late 60s, but I got I got him the forest alexander that when that was his name Worst alexander when doc holiday spoke people listened. There was some kind of commercial But and my whole point and the whole point that the way we tried the way I tried the case was this was Dax doing Dax was the one who had brought the two killers and usher either was just merely present or he was a target himself I don't know I believe target himself. He was but there was no reason for him to be Wanting to do anything to these people. That's that's what they couldn't show They really couldn't why what would frank usher have against these people when the allegation was that cool cat was with him I think that's what I think holiday Was afraid if he killed usher the jackalones would kill him. Well that I don't know anything about that Anything about the Italians never came up in this case. Well, I'm just when I you know when I've talked to people they've said that Holiday told people at the time people ask him that question. Why do you leave in frank alive? He said we'll take care of him later and then Frank took off to indianapolis like the next day because he knew that Yeah, the cops are probably coming after him and doc holiday would We took off to indianapolis when what do you mean like the day or two after the massacre Oh, okay, and then they fun and they eventually caught him in like september or october in indianapolis and they were given up by Docs Right hand man's girlfriend synthia skeens who was there when all this happened Was the girlfriend of that's why I recognize that. Yeah, that's right. She was there but the the reason why and that People would say that is usher was known. I mean maybe not in in your circles, but usher was known as The the main black liaison to the Italian Italian mafia like the main black under world He was known to be close to the billion tony jackaloni, right from when he was young from right when he was 14 13 14 years old, right, right? um, let's talk a little bit or we're winded down here, but let's talk a little bit about YBI pony down these were some of the the big You know name brand streakings in the 1980s I know you were representing a lot of the pony down administration The bunch from brothers I represented countless people that were affiliated with pony down, but not so much the YBI none except for when they got indicted Um, Otis called me because Otis Colpepper was more of like the in-house council I don't know if I'd call it that in-house council means, you know, what's going on Neither of us were that he was pushing back. I love steve I love it. Well, I mean because you got you know, you're talking to people I know about the world and you got to make sure they understand that stupid lawyers Are sitting there with these guys when they're selling drugs and seeing the drugs Otis wasn't doing that. I certainly wasn't doing that. So they When they got indicted when they got indicted Otis called me to see if I would take one of the defendants, which I did But you got to remember federal court was so different then they didn't hand out time like it was lunch like they do now So big difference between the early 80s and the late 80s in terms of well when the sentencing guidelines came That's what changed it and in the pony case And keep in mind in those days there was still parole in federal in the federal system not supervised release And if a guy got 12 years You get out in seven, you know six or seven Leroy butcherm had the highest sentence of all of our pony guys and he got 12 and he was home in about seven um Even the curries when we had them they were later later 80s or you were I forgot he was johnny jenny and leo got I think we got him 15 And they were home in he did 12 maybe 10 They only got 12. Well, I think they did they got 15 to 20, but no, no, I didn't want any 20 I think they got 15. I don't think they were there 12. He told me 12 He might have because he was right in between see he came in and I think he came home in like 2001 He went in the 80s No, no, he was okay. He came home and not sorry came home in 99 and went in 87 87 was then but see the the the system was changing just then they had passed the sentencing reform act in 1984 And now they were 87 was when it started. So I can't remember if they were there when the I think that they were still getting paroled earlier. Well, this is a beginning of mass incarceration I just remember when I met johnny for the first time We were at fish bones downtown and I said that's how long how much did he end up doing? He said 12 years Really wasn't that bad But again, wasn't that bad and the reason it wasn't that bad and this is what people don't understand Number one, you're in the feds rather than the state. So you don't have What I would call the rabble you don't have the rapists Right and just the you know these asshole young kids the young kids are the ones that drive you crazy Not because they're scared of them just that they're a pain in the ass like all young kids are You know they talk too much they blah blah blah They want to do all you know just all these minor little things number two When you're doing time in the feds and I don't think Any of them went to the max joint. I mean you can He was down in texas. Yeah, I mean about saying you can you can a lot of times you're living in a dormitory Kind of situation with four guys you can go you can shoot baskets. You can run on a track I mean you don't have your wife and your kids or your woman and your kids But really you don't have all the a lot of guys if they're honest And you can ask them the next time you start talking to any of them ask them If part of the reason that it wasn't so bad quote because they didn't have shit to worry about You know when you're out in the streets, you've got so many different things to worry about You know you got the drugs are they everything right and and There's a lot of stuff to worry about are you going to get shot? You got to pay attention to this guy or the cops coming behind you It's just a different guy say they get their best, you know first couple nights of sleep in prison Their best nights of sleep ever and they gotta worry about anything when they come out guys When the first time I saw jenny when he came home now, he was a nice looking guy anyway, but he didn't look a day older He didn't look one day older. He looked great. I bumped into leo downtown the same thing Yeah, you know so, you know johnny curry and his brother We're you know two pretty big drug kingpins on the east side of detroit Tied into all the white boy rick stuff. So let's end On white boy rick Steve, you know never represented rick, but I know that there was a conversation you had with him At down at 36 district or no, sorry don't record don't record during this trial It's the only time I ever saw him in my life and uh, you know rick Was at the time everybody just knew that he was this teenage white drug dealer that was running around with A lot of black drug dealers a lot of black women Um sitting front row at piston games sitting box seats at tigers games So he was uh, I mean, I even remember him as a 10-year-old. They didn't know anything about no gangsters or drug dealers, but um at his trial Which was a bit of a frame of job in itself But nonetheless not to say that he wasn't doing a lot of drug dealing at that time at his trial. He had You know 100 150 Members of this entourage that were following him around filling the court acting a fool Acting like a bunch of 16-year-olds because they were a bunch of 16 17-year-olds And it really really hurt His cause and I know that steve had a little conversation with him They were they were they were all the way into the trial the problem was I mean, I've had situations like that not as crazy as this was If the wrong people came to a trial I'd take them all in the hall and I'd tell them all you get the hell out of here Don't come back. I don't give a shit and I don't care what they said. I said you don't come back in here You're going to convict your friend Because the jurors see everything people have to understand that when I talk to lawyers They see everything that's going in they see how the lawyer treats the kid So his lawyer who I think was he had edwin bell and uh sam gardener and bill buffalino all three of them Ed bell was on that case. I thought it was just buffalino, but whoever it was Sam was on that case. Yeah I thought he was still judged then um They I told rick that I see him. He knew who I was and obviously he's the only white kid, you know He was very close to demetrius hallowed. That's how he knew steve wreck No, he didn't know me personally. I never had how he knew who you were A lot of those guys and they knew who I was but I said to rick. I said, what are all these idiots doing here? Oh, man, I don't know what to do. I said tell me get the fuck out of here. You can't do these guys around They're going to get you convicted. This was a big part of the narrative the media narrative around his case, which was like You got to remember in 1987 there wasn't You know cnn and court tv, but as as much as a local Media could go wall-to-wall coverage. They were covering rick's two week trial like that And and the fact that he had all these knuckleheads You know found around acting like he was uh, you know, they were in the courtroom That's the worst thing but but see here's the thing and I've said this a million times and when I wrote The letter for him the Grandwoman she was governor if he would have been black boy rick purple boy rick anything but white boy rick He'd just been another guy. No one would have given a shit. He got a wreck. They were fascinated again Races everything in his fucking culture. They were fascinated and they actually believed They actually tried to put it in the newspaper that he was the boss of drugs. Now mind you I'm representing half a dozen different guys there. He's really Really the bosses of drugs and this did they really believe a little scrawny little 17-year-old white boy Is telling these guys what to do and that was the narrative that people accept and that's how he stayed there all those years But it was political part of that narrative was being fueled by the colman young's office I'm sure it was for obvious reasons. Yes. Yeah And he but he fed into it I mean again, I have talked about length about this. He I was my own worst enemy I looked like an asshole And whether or not I was innocent or not I looked like an asshole and the thing was he wasn't innocent But his lawyers did whoever they were you you've got to take that stuff head on you've got You've got to make sure that if they're killing you in the press like that you got to come out and say What are you talking about? This is a 17-year-old white kid. Look at him He couldn't boss me around and I think one of the most they just didn't do it They let him be you know one of the most if not the most poignant part of of that entire Three-ring circus was the very end when he's convicted and you have a courtroom jam packed with these hangar on entourage And they're making a scene and judge Jackson who was the judge uh thomas jackson was his judge Looks at rick and says rick You know, you think that these people these 200 people. They're in my courtroom right now are here To support you and they're your friends and reality. They're just here to find out who's going to replace you And I thought that was like Very kind of on point for for judge jackson to kind of check rick To be like, yeah, all of this is all gone because the second you know, you're locked up, which is going to happen 10 minutes from now None of these people are going to care I think about like the uh the Italian mafia guys in new york when they they go to trial they come in with their oxygen tank Yeah, and they're cain He's just an old man harmless old man. He's that one guy wandering the streets Is he for the whole for He's just a harmless old tried for all those years because they kept saying he was incompetent right walking around his bathroom backwards, but you know with rick's case The the the truth gets lost in the mythology and what I always tried to You know be so emphatic about was this was a 17 year old kid that was caught and a traffic stop in front of his grandmother's house with cocaine And if that should end somebody's life That should be the end that should you know, we're gonna bury you underneath the the jail Then we got to reevaluate our you know, american Well, but what you're really saying and what you would be the subject of another One of these podcasts is that the over 650 law is what did it to him? Tommy jackson would have never given him right and he said that he'd have probably given him 5 to 10 or something But it still took rick 20 years after that law got tossed Right and that's a disgraced. Well, that's when I started participating rap mucelli to his great credit Yes, took Took it under his wing and and he asked me to write because I knew jennifer from when she was And they didn't do a goddamn thing No, it wasn't until the film and the documentary that documentary is the best documentary That I have seen that guy did a fantastic dance me too. I was the executive producer of that documentary Who what was the guy's name? Sean rec was a director and an executive producer. That was the go check it out on netflix Absolutely, you should all check it out because you've got you've got forget me You've got people from the dea to telling the truth You got people from the fbi telling the truth about what happened and the whole thing was a disgrace It's a real tragically exposed in that documentary really and it's a shame that it had to be a Hollywood film and a documentary coming down the train tracks to get Movement from this state because they knew if they didn't move they were to get ran over I I agree with I think the documentary made a big difference I mean just do the math this first trailer for the documentary is released on a wednesday night at eight o'clock Thursday at 11 that next day at Thursday at 11 o'clock kim worthy holds a press conference saying that she's no longer Going to oppose wane county will no longer oppose ricks Perl, uh, yeah, it was unfortunate that he got involved in whatever that little stupid stuff was when he was locked up Um, that probably kept in there a little last thing. I want steve Just we don't have to talk about any names But I remember one the first times I met steve and I was getting to like kind of pick his brain And uh, I wanted to say so you you represented the italians around here And you were like What I learned about representing some of these wise guys is they always think you're doing some you're doing them some kind of favor you're you know everything's on the arm everything's uh, uh, uh, you know is uh Easy peasy and nobody's got to pay the pipe or I I only represented one guy who people claimed was involved with them. He's a really nice guy I got him a fantastic deal. It was a federal court case but Uh, I made it. You I made it straight away from those guys. I made it. It's not a matter I just made it pretty clear to him and a couple of the other guys that came around that you know the next You got to go get somebody else. But it's not necessarily for the reason that They didn't want to pay or this or that or the other I I just you know, I grew up with the fellas and I'm just much more comfortable with those guys. I did the street guys to me You know, you guys asked me one time Prophet asked me the last time about you know, when those guys from pony We were you're a little scared to have them in the thing and I looked at memory. I said I've never been scared anybody. It's not a matter of fear I'm just comfortable with the guys because those are the kind of guys I've been around my whole life Italian guys I forget about whether they're supposedly mobsters or not the only time I ever saw Italian guys Or what if we played against them? So I just would have thought back, you know in the heyday of this in the late 80s 90s when Steve was He's still in his prime, but Steve Get into his prime and you had guys like jack toko that were getting in trouble And they would go to these I'm not trying to disrespect The attorneys that they went to but you think they would have been begging over backwards to try to get Steve to represent them No, I don't think I tell you why that's that's not true though because Remember in those in those days Well by the 90s, it was a little different but you know, I was a street lawyer You know, I noticed and we were doing street guys street crime drugs and murder And it really wasn't you know, we weren't doing all that much federal stuff And these guys were used to you know, Alan early the the older Alan early He was their lawyer at the beginning and he was a wonderful lawyer But they were used to federal court people, you know d-day Alan Other guys who went to federal court all the time. I don't really think they I never remember anybody contacting me other than this one case I'm saying they would have been smart. Well, I don't know about that. I don't I don't know about that again because you know, I have a different way You know, I have a different way of relating to the clients and I think a lot of those guys, particularly the older guys They expected a little more Deference, is that the right word? I guess that's that's not really my way. All right. That's what I was going for This was great. Thank you so much, Steve. We got to have you back I know people are going to love this. Don't forget to subscribe. Please like follow subscribe Steve fishman the goat the og when it comes to Criminal defense attorneys in detroit. He's already ready to go. He's he's got his coat on. He's got to make it over for dinner Thank you so much, Steve. This was awesome. I know our audience will like it And we'll be back next week with a brand new episode of the original gangsters podcast. Thank you, jimmy Thank you, ben. We are out