 Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, slightly belatedly today but I'm really pleased to welcome you to this webinar which is the first event of the 2021 lecture series entitled Rethink energy countdown to COP26. It's brought to you by the ESP and the IIA and throughout this series will convene international thought leaders, renowned energy experts and political leaders who will address critical issues in energy policy in advance of the next UN climate change conference, which is due to take place in Glasgow in November. On behalf of the IIA, I would like to particularly thank ESP for their sponsorship of this series. Today we are really delighted to be joined by Glenn Wellen, Vice President of the Zero Emission Aircraft at Airbus. I'd like to thank him for managing to spare us the time to speak with us today. Glenn is widely recognized as a premier thought leader on climate strategy for aviation. Today he is at the helm of a zero emission revolution at Airbus with the mission to unite all the ingredients needed to launch the world's first zero emission commercial aircraft program. Prior to his current role, he spearheaded the research and technology portfolio dedicated to reducing the climate impact of Airbus products. This portfolio included all electric aircraft as well as hydroelectric ones. The title of today's address is The Future of Flying Zero Emission Aviation, and Glenn will talk with us for about 25 minutes or so. After his presentation we will go to a Q&A session with you, our audience. You'll be able to join the discussion using the Q&A function on Zoom, which you should see towards the bottom of your screen. Please send your questions in throughout the session as they occur to you. I'd encourage you to do this. You don't need to hold them until the end, and it would be helpful if you identify yourself and your affiliation when you ask a question. A reminder that both the presentation and Q&A session are on the record today, and feel free to join the discussion on Twitter using the handle RE think energy. Firstly, allow me to hand over to Jerry O'Sullivan, Deputy CEO of the ESP for some opening remarks. Jerry. Thanks very much, John, and good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Again, you're very welcome here today to our first lecture of the 2021 We Take Energy series and associate with IIEA. As everyone said, we're seeking to bring together experts and world leaders from around the world to give their insights on the future of energy around the topic of countdown to COP26. And I think what we're really interested in is also the collaborations necessary to achieve our goal between countries, sectors, and companies. And I suppose we're all heartened recently by President Biden's commitments on climate action, the US, China accord, the Green Deal in Europe, and of course our own Irish government's very ambitious climate action plan. So I'm really interested in here getting an insight today on future travel from Glenn and his reference to hydrogen. And I say that because we in ESP are particularly interested in collaborating and moving beyond the electricity sector to how we and our activities in ESP and our investments can support other industries meet their climate targets. And of course as ESP, we will always be interested in and will continue to be focused on decarbonizing the electricity system and on electrification of heat and transport. But we believe that net zero cannot be achieved without working on the electron and the molecule together. And therefore you may have seen in recent weeks ESP announced green eglantic at money point, and there we envisage capturing the wild eglantic winds off the west coast of clear, and to create green hydrogen, enabling us to support other industries to electrify their sectors and decarbonize, including the aviation sector. So money point is going to become a green energy hub with two very large offshore floating turbine farms in themselves and emerging technology to come ashore. And then our plans for the site include the development of green hydrogen production, storage and generation. And of course money point being the second deepest port in Europe. We also hope to enable it to be a facility to support the emerging offshore floating industry in Ireland. As you can see we've a significant interest in hydrogen, and speaking of transport, we're pleased to say that we're already involved in an in service trial of a fuel cell electric bus in Dublin, coordinated by hydrogen mobility Ireland, and powered by green energy, produced from renewable energy from our money part or from our admin pressure generating station. So, I think really excited to be part of, but will need to be an energy economy and a, and a hydrogen economy in Ireland. Really looking forward to your talk, Glenn, and how the airbus and the industry in aviation is hoping to decarbonize and use hydrogen on that journey. So without any further ado, Glenn welcome again, and I'll hand over to you. Super. Thanks a lot, Jerry. Thanks a lot, Owen. It's a pleasure to be with you today and I'm really looking forward to sharing with you. What's behind the project that we call zero E at Airbus. I'm going to share my screen and hopefully. Can you see my screen? Could you just confirm somebody? Yeah, I see Owen's head nodding. Okay, super. So what I'd like to do is take you a little bit through the strategic drivers that really puts us in the context of why we have to launch the zero E aircraft. I'd like to talk to you a little bit about some of the technologies that we need to mature and the aircraft concept choices that we're looking at as well as the timeline. So starting off if I take you through a little bit of the context as we see it and I think you, you and many of you on this webinar have seen an acceleration in terms of societal and regulatory expectation. We've seen various countries in 2019 2020 and even at the beginning of 2021, making extremely serious pledges to tackle the climate crisis and allow us to reduce humanity's impact on climate change. The greenhouse gas regulation is evolving fast. The gray arrow to the right of your screen is highlighting that we believe this trend is going to continue. And therefore we see it as a business benefit, as well as a moral imperative to be developing the solutions, which allow us in the future to fly with zero emissions. We've set as an aviation industry quite ambitious targets in terms of reduction of emissions. You can see here, one of the targets which have been set are what's called the ATAC targets, Air Transportation Action Group targets. There was a reduction of 50% of CO2 emissions in in 2050 compared to 2005 levels going down to zero by 2060. And many of us in the aviation industry have been talking about sustainable aviation fuels and biomass based fuels, which are for sure a part of the solution. And what we recognize is that we need on top of biomass biomass based fuels, the synthetic fuel types, which are created in their green form by renewable energy in order to allow the scale up of sustainable ways of flying as we move through the next decades. And as soon as we say that we need to move to synthetic fuels and we need to push for the acceleration of synthetic fuels, it starts to be of interest to understand what's happening in the energy sector. And I think many of you will understand that the figures you see on your chart in absolute terms are still not at the scale to allow us to achieve, for example the Paris Agreement. In terms of growth, these figures are still nonetheless quite impressive. And I think we need to bear in mind that that's prior to in much of the time frame that's prior to the Paris Agreement, and that's prior all of the initiatives to grow back green after the COVID crisis. And in that period, subsidies have been required in order for these types of energy production method to be competitive. And we start to see in many regions, these forms of energy production being competitive, even without subsidies. So we've seen impressive growth period, period in that context. And what we expect is that this growth is going to continue, that it's going to go exponential over the coming decades. And essentially, we want to power aviation with renewable energy as we progress through the coming decades. And during that same period of growth, we've seen significant reduction in terms of cost, because the technology has been invested in the efficiencies have come down, because supply chains have become more competitive. There's been an industrialization of the solutions which means that they've been the capital expenditure has has been reduced over time for the same deployed megawatt capability. This is, according to many forecasts, the beginning of what is going to be continuous reduction in terms of renewable energy cost over time. And since electricity is a key cost of hydrogen, that's extremely important when we start to think about hydrogen as a fuel for aviation. And I think many of you will be very aware that the climate challenge is as much an economic challenge. And so, driving down the costs over time is going to be critically important. What we just looked at in terms of growth figures and what we just looked at in terms of cost reduction figures are a resume on 2010 to 2021 on this chart. And what you can see on this picture is really that that growth and that cost reduction has come from a very short period, where in fact we've got a very small amount of growth in comparison to the massive growth in renewables which we're going to see over the coming decades. And this is even less ambitious as a scenario compared to the Paris Agreement. So our view is that this this is going to scale significantly the costs are going to come down, and we're going to start to see much more availability of renewable power over the coming period. What we've also seen is a dramatic emergence of demand for hydrogen. We've, we started this project around 2017-2018 in Airbus. And what we saw at that point in time were a few signs that hydrogen was going to be important for several sectors, but nothing to the extent of what we saw emerging in 2020 and even the beginning of 2021. There are eight truck companies who have either revealed hydrogen truck concepts or have even got hydrogen trucks on the road today. There are various in the rail industry who are looking at hydrogen fuel cell powered trains to replace diesel trains where it's more economic than to put electrical cables overhead. In maritime, intra-continental shipping is looking very seriously at hydrogen and even hydrogen fuel cells as a propulsion system for those vessels. This ship in this picture was actually launched in November last year. And it's a 90 car, 200 passenger size vehicle, so very consequent in terms of scale. And then there are hundreds of buses deployed in various places across the world. And this is really important for us. It's one of the reasons why in 2020 we revealed our ambition to use hydrogen to power aircraft. Because in fact, if we do this alone as only the aviation industry, we don't believe that we could pull the hydrogen ecosystem in the necessary ways in terms of scale up, in terms of availability and in terms of cost. So this drive from multiple industries is really, really important for us in aviation. And hydrogen can be used in a few different ways on board an aircraft. If I start at the top, we have what are called partial liquid synthetic fuels. In this case, we need direct air carbon capture. We need Fisher tropes to combine the carbon and the hydrogen to make a hydrocarbon. And that partial liquid synthetic fuel can in fact be used even on Airbus existing aircraft. Our aircrafts are certified already to be fueled with up to 50% of these partial liquid synthetic fuels. And therefore, hydrogen really important and a valuable tool, even in the short term decarbonization of aviation. And then if we look at the bottom two boxes, hydrogen combustion and hydrogen fuel cells, these are two other ways that hydrogen can be used on board an aircraft. Hydrogen combustion where you take hydrogen in its raw form and you combust it inside a gas turbine. The gas turbine needs to be modified in terms of the injectors in terms of the fuel system, but otherwise it's relatively classical compared to a gas turbine that exists today on aircraft. And then hydrogen fuel cells, which are quite different than gas turbines. These are converting hydrogen into electrical energy and then we can take that electrical energy and convert it into what we call shaft horsepower, which turns the propeller or the fan on board the aircraft using electric motors. And the focus of zero e so the the project that we've launched in 2020 is really on hydrogen use in its raw form, because we see it as having potentially the best possible climate credentials, including CO2 including nox including contrails. It looks like it can also have the best economics and that's important again because this is as much of an economic challenge as anything else. And also in terms of overall energy efficiency if we look at the well to wing instead of well to wheel so well to wing efficiency of the aircraft and its energy. This also looks like one of the most promising methods and and essentially it's it's perhaps obvious for for many of you but we can't put wind turbines and solar panels on board aircraft. So, so what we need is a surrogate for this renewable energy that we can take on board aircraft and hydrogen is one of those surrogates. It is from all of the options that we've looked at, which include butane propane methane ammonia and the list goes on, including batteries and hybrid and various other configurations. Hydrogen really is the most promising, both in terms of economics and climate impact compared to every other option on the table. It's a huge challenge it's quite a change to the aircraft and to the ecosystem around the aircraft, but we believe that the prize is is sufficiently big that we need to pursue it at speed. The concepts that we revealed in September 2020 are these three, the blended wing body or flying wing the one in the middle of your screen is is the one which the media perhaps got the most excited about it's the one that many of you have perhaps seen. It's it's nonetheless the one that's also least likely to be our aircraft concept that enters into service by 2035. I think it's a big enough challenge for us to modify quite disruptively the propulsion system on board the aircraft without also dramatically changing the overall aircraft configuration. So we're likely to go with what we call either the turbofan or turbo prop aircraft is the first aircraft that we bring to commercial service. Nonetheless, the blended wing body and flying wing is is an interesting concept for us to study as a future long term hydrogen powered aircraft. Many of you who follow the aviation industry will know that flying wings have been studied numerous times and in the context of kerosene. It is difficult to to to get it to pay its way, but when you shift to hydrogen, because hydrogen requires requires more storage volume compared to kerosene. And this type of concept this flying wing concept has more naturally more internal volume. Then high then the configuration starts to pay its way you you don't pay any penalty in terms of wetted area or drag associated with that kind of configuration so it's it's really a future long term concept of interest. The other important point I'd like to share on this slide is really that hydrogen from the concept studies we've done has enormous versatility. You've perhaps seen that there are various people in the general aviation world looking at hydrogen for four and six feet or aircraft. And what we've confirmed in the studies that we've done is that this technology scales all the way up to 100 seat 200 seat aircraft 1000 nautical mile 2000 nautical mile aircraft and around 60% of aviation fuel use in 2019 was on flights less than 2000 nautical miles so that's a significant market, a significant portion of the energy use of aviation that we could potentially shift to hydrogen. The concepts on the previous slide were all concepts which have gas turbines and what are called hydrogen combustion on board even if it's in a hybrid configuration. This concept is a concept we revealed in December 2020 it's quite different than the other concepts in that this concept is is a fuel cell powered aircraft so there is no gas turbine there's no combustion on on board this concept. We're still analyzing it in terms of scalability and economics. It has some climate credentials, which are perhaps better than what we could achieve elsewhere in terms of knocks and contrails clearly if there's no combustion for example. But yes still still a topic of study in Airbus and we will make decisions about which concept we finally take to market as we get closer to 2025. Some of the technologies that we are maturing and which we will bring to flight test again in that pre 2025 timeframe are what you see now on your screen. We have hydrogen powered gas turbines. I mentioned that the injectors, the combustion chamber, the fuel system needs to be changed compared to what we have on an existing aircraft, so some significant modifications. Nonetheless, gas turbines have in fact flown with hydrogen so being powered by hydrogen in the past in the 1950s B 57 in the US Air Force flew with hydrogen in the 1980s a tuple of 155 flew in Russia with hydrogen. So the fundamental feasibility has already been demonstrated but we have plenty of work to do to take the technology further and prepare it for commercial aviation applications. As well as the gas turbine that the hydrogen storage and in this case liquid hydrogen storage is also really important. At the rear of the aircraft in this concept we have to twin walled vacuum insulated tanks. These are technologies which come from in fact the automotive industry. So in the 2010s there were limited series cars, which were using twin walled vacuum insulated tanks for the storage of liquid hydrogen already in that timeframe. So we have plenty of work to do to scale that technology to the size of tanks that we're going to need for aviation and also get some of the weight out of that tank again so that we can make the economics work for an aircraft of one to 200 passenger size. Fuel cells are of interest for basically all of the configurations and all of the propulsion system types that we're looking at fuel cells can can be used to complement the gas turbine, which during for example, what we call off design points like on ground operations or during to scent might not be operating at its optimum. And so it's interesting to complement the propulsion system with a very high efficiency fuel cell, which can be operating at 60% plus efficiency during those phases of flight. Fuel cells can also potentially be used to power an entire aircraft but again we have questions about the scalability and economics which we're working on. And then of course power electronics and electric motors which are needed to convert that electrical energy into shaft horsepower for the fan or the propeller on the aircraft. One of the challenges we have is the ecosystem around the aircraft if there's no hydrogen at airports. There's no point in having a hydrogen aircraft. And so we've started several collaborations with airports and with energy providers, where it looks of interest to decarbonize ground transportation in the 2020s, using hydrogen ground support equipment around aircraft buses which come to airports, trucks, which come to airports because airports are in fact logistics centers can can all economically be decarbonized using hydrogen. So we see airports similar to maritime ports as being hydrogen hubs of the future. They're often also strategically located compared to cities and can perhaps provide a wider service to cities. So we think this is an important enabler to scale up hydrogen usage at airports to familiarize airports with operation of hydrogen and essentially to prepare the ground for us to be using hydrogen in the 2030s to power hydrogen aircraft. The timeline that we've set ourselves is ambitious, but we think that this is the sort of level of ambition that we need to tackle the challenge in front of us. The entry into service date that we are targeting is by 2035. In order to achieve this successful entry into service, we would need by 2025 to have flight tested hydrogen propulsion systems on board flight test beds or flight test aircraft. We would need the technology to have been matured in terms of its operation, its, its safety and its performance by 2025. And we also want a lot of the confidence that the ecosystem is going in the right direction, especially in our early markets to be established by this 2035 timeframe. To give you an idea, we're talking about hundreds of millions in terms of investment up until 2025. And then, if we're successful, which we are planning to be, we will press the button to spend billions necessary to develop an aircraft and to bring it to commercial service by 2035. And I'm conscious that this effort is going to require massive partnerships beyond the usual aviation ecosystem. We've already teamed up with an automotive manufacturer and created a joint venture for fuel cell technology development. I think we're going to need to do the same type of partnerships for liquid hydrogen storage, but also in terms of the wider ecosystem and preparation of the wider ecosystem to make sure we have green hydrogen at airports, which secures the fact that these aircraft will genuinely be zero emission vehicles. We're reaching out a lot to partners at the moment and really consider this a team sport. Looking forward to the questions you might have and exchanging in the Q&A. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed. Glenn, it's a, it's a really exciting set of prospects really it's a, it's a, it's a complex picture. Let me start off with a very sort of basic question. When you say that solar isn't applicable, we have had, we have had little aircraft flying very long distances with solar panels on the roof. But no, seriously, the question about to what extent do, does considerable development in jet turbine technology improving its efficiency that represent a tension, a competitive tension. Of course, they're still fossil fuel based, but really considerable improvements in their efficiency in the efficiency of conventional engines. To some extent undermining this, this development. So maybe first talking about the solar applications, I think the key question is the ratio between your wing size and your passenger carrying capability. If you have two, two passengers on board or one passenger on board and massive wings, then I think what you're saying could work and has worked. When you go to mass transportation, which is what we do in the commercial aviation world, that ratio sort of is way different, and we, we can't make it viable. Unfortunately, considering the gas turbine technology and, and its potential. I think the, if, if kerosene was the future and sustainable aviation fuel will, I hope be the future and sustainable aviation fuel will in in a large part we believe be hydrogen based. That gas turbine technology, as well as for hydrogen combustion, any improvements we get in it are going to benefit all of the energy types that we're talking about. I mean, it would benefit kerosene powered aircraft have better performance improvement. It would benefit sustainable aviation fuel powered aircraft and it would benefit hydrogen powered aircraft, if you are considering hydrogen combustion as the way you would use the hydrogen on board which is a pathway that we're exploring with engine manufacturers at the moment. So, I don't see any competition between improved gas turbine performance I think it's mandatory for all of the pathways that we have improved gas turbine performance. I think we know very well though that improved gas turbine performance on its own will not achieve the levels of reductions that we need so essentially we have to change the energy carrier on board the aircraft, as well as improve the efficiency and the performance of the aircraft. Thank you. We have a question from our former Minister for Transport and Minister for Finance as well Alan Dukes. He asks that carbon tax increases will inevitably increase not only the cost of fossil fuels for aviation but also the cost of metals and carbon fibers and so on used in construction. Will this lead to real increases in aviation costs? So our approach to this aircraft is going to be very much focused on what we call LCA analysis, life cycle analysis. So it means that all of the material choices, both in the airframe in the systems in the propulsion system are going to be going through this life cycle assessment in order for us to choose our technologies based on the climate impact as a key parameter and as soon as you do that you start to eliminate any of the costs that you might see associated with for example higher carbon taxes and so on. And I think that's the aim of carbon taxation or taxation on climate impact. The aim is to drive businesses and drive end users and consumers towards more sustainable solutions. And I think that's exactly the sort of dynamic which we know is occurring and we're preparing for in the buildup of the Zero E aircraft. Thank you. There's a question from Ray Foley in Collins Aerospace. Thank you for your interesting presentation. He says Europe is positioning well for a future hydrogen economy. How do you see this progressing in the rest of the world and will that have a big impact on the success of aviation decarbonization? Yeah, I think the announcement in the US recently, the rejoining of the Paris Agreement, the announcements we saw as recent as last week in terms of investment in renewables as well as the target that we see coming out of the US for 2030 show that we have now two massive players, Europe and the US, who are more or less going the same direction with the same level of ambition on this topic. We see other economies for various reasons going also in this direction. I've been on a discussion this morning with India about their shift towards a hydrogen economy. Basically, every week we see more and more happening on this topic. And I think it's just down to simple mathematics. When you look at what the Paris Agreement means, when you calculate what is it that society is going to need to put in place to meet the Paris Agreement, hydrogen is an essential part of the roadmap. You can't meet the Paris Agreement and not have hydrogen. So, whatever the sector, whether we're talking about aviation, whether we're talking about long haul trucking, whether we're talking about shipping and then intra-continental shipping in particular, mass passenger transportation in buses, especially over the longer distances, home heating, steel industry, cement industry. There's a huge convergence on the fact that hydrogen is going to be key for all of those industries. So, I think we need to create the world we want to live in. We need to encourage all of the ecosystems to develop so that hydrogen does form this important piece of the jigsaw that we see, because I think we all want that society meets the Paris Agreement. So, rather than predict exactly who's going to do what, I think we're in the process of trying to shape it and influence it. And I've got a lot of hope with the recent announcements that we're on the right track. The next question is a different focus. COVID-19 has had a major impact on the aviation industry. The question asks, to what extent will the pandemic affect future demand for Airbus Zero We aircraft? I think society has a growing appetite for zero climate impact. And I guess, again, it's about predicting the future, but there is one scenario which is that the Zero We aircraft that we're talking about today is the most successful aircraft of all time in Airbus, because societal expectation is changing, because regulation is changing, and therefore this kind of aircraft will be really successful. So for sure, we see business opportunity in what we're doing. And I think it's mandatory for the aviation industry, in particular post COVID, to be growing back with better and better climate credentials over time. I think that's what society expects. That's what we all, even in the industry, believe that we need to do to continue providing an added value to society. I think it's an added value that we can physically meet and we can physically connect with each other. So this added value is super, but an aviation is not the problem. I think aviation is a benefit to society, but aviation today has a climate impact and we need to focus on getting rid of that climate impact. And I think COVID has reinforced that, for sure, hopefully accelerated that. And the Zero We project is, I think, part of Airbus's response to delivering on our commitment. Thank you. Oh, Macalir declares his interest in a way because he's hydrogen manager at ESB generation and trading. And he asks, he looks to explore what Airbus would need from an Irish based hydrogen industry. The very introduction made reference to the ESB's plans with which I think you would not be familiar for a converting what's now currently a coal fired power station, a very large one on the west coast as connected with major offshore wind development to form a green hydrogen production production facility. And could you imagine that that could align with the requirements of the Zero We program bearing in mind that quite close to it is a significant part of the Shannon airport? Yeah, yeah, for sure. The key is to get hydrogen, green hydrogen available at airports at a sensible dollar or euro or great British pound per kilogram. That's our target. That's what we work with airports and energy providers on. And that's going to be critically important in our roadmap up to 2025. If we start to launch the billions of investment for the product development in 2025, as our target, we're going to want to see that the economics of hydrogen really at the airport are in the right ballpark for airlines to want to take this solution. And we think it has the possibility to have the best economics compared to all solutions. So if you just look at this in terms of euros per ton of CO2 avoided, it looks like it's got the best credentials compared to every other option, every other energy carrier on board the aircraft. But we have to drive the renewable energy ecosystem. We need electricity costs to come down. We need electrolyzer costs to come down. We need liquefaction. I don't know if that's in the plans associated with money point, but it looks like there will be several industries that need liquid hydrogen. We're certainly one of them. There are many players looking at liquefaction and liquid hydrogen because it's more economic to store. You can have hydrogen refilling stations, which are potentially much lower cost if you put liquid hydrogen storage associated with them. So there are various people looking at liquid and that the trucking industry is for kind of the same reasons. We are also looking at liquid because you get more cargo carrying capacity and more range if you go to liquid compared to gaseous storage. So people like Daimler trucks, for example, very, very vocal about how we should invest in liquid hydrogen technology, liquid hydrogen infrastructure, especially for trucking and for us it's the same for aviation. Because otherwise we would do the crazy thing of investing in perhaps 700 bar or 350 bar technology and ecosystem. And then in five or 10 years time say, okay, now let's go for liquid hydrogen and essentially as a society, it would mean that we invest twice because we invest in two technology developments. A question from Kieron McGlynn, the Vice President for Commercial Engine Lease Finance, who compliments you and praises your presentation. But he says over the past decade, jet A1 fuel has accounted for anywhere between 20 to 33% of an airline's operating cost. What is the cost of hydrogen compared today per barrel and what's the projected cost for 2035 based on the required mass production. Yeah, so I don't I don't have the direct cost comparisons in mind because you have to you have to consider how the ecosystem is evolving there are various discussions for example on sustainable aviation fuel mandates in in Europe. So what what I think the best thing to do is to take two solutions which have, let's say similar qualities in terms of CO2 reduction capability, biomass based fuel or part of liquid synthetic fuel. Take those two they have, you know, good capability to reduce CO2 emissions, and you compare that with hydrogen. Compare when you do that comparison, we have something which is definitely more competitive in hydrogen compared to the other options. If you compare all of the options with kerosene, they're all more expensive. I mean, kerosene, the oil that we take from underground, it's, it's as we all know, especially I'm sure in this forum, it's a very cheap source of energy. I think we can do a lot in scaling the ecosystem to drive the price down, probably over time to something very close. But it won't be in the 2030 timeframe. It's more as we move into 2040 2050 that we could expect that convergence I think. Thank you very much. There's an interesting question from Tom O'Regan who's a member of the Institute, and he's raised the question about what are the competition doing. He asks, is Boeing heavily invested in hydrogen or other renewable bases for aviation, presumably the aircraft, the engine manufacturers, the Rolls Royce and so on are taking an interest in this matter too. Are you alone on how hydrogen is the industry moving in that direction? Yeah, so we're working with all the major engine manufacturers on what we're doing. In fact, without the engine manufacturers, we couldn't do what we're targeting. So that's just a mandatory partnership that we've already established. In terms of what the competition is doing, I think the competition is saying that it's more like 2050 when we could have this solution, this hydrogen powered aircraft solution. And we're saying no, that we can do this earlier, that there's some urgency to bring these kind of solutions to market to explore them to their maximum. And yeah, that's that's the approach that Airbus is taking. We're quite aggressive in pushing this technology and pushing the ecosystem because we think it's really important for aviation. Interesting. I suspect a lot of forces are going to combine to require an acceleration in progress in this area. I have two questions which I think you've probably already answered. Clifford guest in Limerick Institute of Technology asked how much synthetic fuel in percentage terms can be added to standard fuel and I think you indicated up to 50% And Dermot Scott, it's an issue that you had touched upon, but Dermot's a member of the Institute. He asked what are your plans for reducing the carbon and environmental impact of aircraft construction. That comes back to the life cycle analysis and, you know, I think in all industries, typically, we've optimized for economics in the past in aviation, waste is one significant parameter because you reduce the waste and you improve the aircraft performance. On this aircraft, we're going to introduce we have we've already introduced another parameter, which is going to be part of our optimization which is life cycle assessment in terms of climate impact. And that's critically important. This is today. The huge majority of aviation's climate impact comes from in-service operations. It makes almost insignificant the climate impact, let's say, embedded in the product itself. As soon as you have a zero emission aircraft, all of your climate impact comes from what's embedded in the product. So it's mandatory that we address that in a very serious way. Because that becomes 100% of your climate impact if the climate impact from your missions and operations goes to zero or close to zero. Great. Thank you. Ray McGarron asks, it seems the type of aircraft in your presentation are short and medium range. What are the prospects for long haul? Yeah. Yeah, so since we're talking about hydrogen, and I kind of touched on it at the beginning, but hydrogen plays a really big role in long range as well. Long range aircraft, like all of our aircraft can be powered today with up to 50% of sustainable aviation fuel. So that means biomass based fuel or synthetic fuel made from hydrogen. In the first generation of hydrogen, raw hydrogen powered aircraft, we don't see that technology scaling to long range aircraft, the size, for example, of an A350 aircraft. But in subsequent generations, we could imagine the technology scaling further to those market segments. So we're going to see a sort of step by step approach where the longer range aircraft are still powered by hydrogen, but in a liquid synthetic fuel form, the shorter range in raw hydrogen form. And then as the technology progresses, I think we'll see hydrogen becoming more and more relevant for the larger and longer range aircraft. Thank you. I think what needs to be a final question, and it's about the decision process. You talk about 2025 being a landmark time. In the next four years, you're spending hundreds of millions of euro investing. So presumably you don't keep spending on the less likely options until 2025 comes in that but there's a narrowing down on the spectrum which is under serious consideration. Just a little bit about that blend of business and technology decision making, please. Yeah, sure. So we have various propulsion system architectures that we're looking at all the way from gas turbines on their own gas turbines with hybrid systems, different levels of hybridization. So this means you change the amount of the percentage of electrical power that goes to the fan or that goes to the propeller. I mentioned also that we're looking at what is the scalability of fully fuel cell powered aircraft, you know, how big can they go, we know that they work for four and six seater aircraft, how big can they go. And so we'll have decisions that we need to take over the next few years to decide which is the propulsion system that we want to fly by 2025. So I mentioned earlier that the 2025 date is important and needs to be fed by a flight of or several flights. In fact, the flight test program of hydrogen propulsion system. And to decide what hydrogen propulsion system we want to fly, we need to finish the studies that we're doing on what's the best hydrogen propulsion system between gas turbine and what levels of hybridization to fuel cell and so on. Okay. I said that was the last one but a couple of just cryptid short ones if I if I could know Rush asks, does hydrogen provide the same weight to energy ratio. And Steve Kelly says, are the propulsion power differences or reaction using hydrogen for the turbofan engine. So in terms of waste, so weight ratio between hydrogen and kerosene hydrogen has about three times less mass for the same amount of energy. The problem is around volume. So the there is hydrogen requires much more volume per unit of energy. That's why you see that we've had to extend the fuselage for example in the images I showed you in that concept of storage to store hydrogen where you wouldn't have to do that with kerosene. And the second question sorry. I've actually lost it myself now. Oh yeah propulsion power differences be using hydrogen for turbofan. Yeah, it looks looks like things are more or less the same between the two in terms of what you can do you have a lot less mass flow because you have a lot more energy per unit of mass compared to kerosene but there are other challenges like you're you're using a gas instead of a liquid through your pipes and so on so but but things that we believe are manageable and that have been flight tested in the past. Anyway, thank you very very much indeed a fascinating fascinating presentation must be extraordinary area to to work in getting up in the morning to tackle these kind of issues on behalf of the I like to thank you for your remarks today. And taking time out to share with us this thing. I want to wish you and your colleagues, the best in your pursuit to develop the first commercial zero emission aircraft. If I turn to this series then the next lecture on the rethink energy countdown to COP 26 will take place on Monday the 10th of May at this time. On that occasion, we welcome Christian partner alley head of electricity industry at the world economic forum. Stephanie Jameson senior managing director of global utilities at Accenture, and Dr Paul Dean senior research fellow at the environmental research institutes Mara center in UCC. The speakers will be discussing the system value framework developed by the world economic forum in partnership with Accenture. It evaluates the economic environmental social and technical outcomes of potential climate solutions across markets, the aims to shift political and commercial focus beyond cost to include value. Until next time. Good afternoon. Take care and many thanks. Glenn the well and thank you.