 This is Jack Gunner, author of The Way of Men. All right, my guest today really needs no introduction. It's millions of men around the world who follow him on YouTube, who follow his lifting, who follow his spiritual advice, who go to his grounding camps, who've watched his speeches at the 21 convention. He is the man who wants to make men strong again. Mr. Elliot Hulse. Elliot, thanks for coming on the show. You got it, Jack. Thank you, man. All right, so, you know, we started out around the same time talking about a lot of the stuff. I saw that I went on your website this morning, I was looking over things, and I said that you started posting videos to YouTube in 2007. And I think my first book came out in 2007. And we've both been writing and talking about masculinity for a long time. And you started out lifting. And so I wanted to ask you, when did it become obvious to you from lifting and posting your videos and so forth, when did it become obvious to you that helping men and helping make men strong again was an important part of your mission and put you in that direction? What did you see was wrong and what did you wanna fix? Well, of course I started out helping men build muscle, get stronger, mostly athletes for football, baseball, you know, basketball, jump higher, run faster, just being overall more muscular, athletic beast. And so I had a lot of young men that would come to my camps. They would be trained in the park, that's where you started, and then I had a little warehouse gym, and, you know, so I had humble beginnings, but I quickly began to realize and appreciate the fact that the young men would wanna stick around after the workouts and ask me all kinds of questions about girlfriends, parents, school, career, work, all the other things that are important to a man, right? You know, I built up a level of trust with them because I was getting them good results in the gym. So I guess they just figured that I could trust this man with other aspects of their life. And so the way that unfolded in my gym is the same way it sort of unfolded online, you know? I started making workout videos, mainly to get more clients into my gym, little did I realize that, you know, millions of people would be watching it worldwide. Wasn't my intention to be a YouTube celebrity because back then that didn't exist. I just thought it was a cool thing. And I would answer questions about lifting, but then the other questions started coming in. Questions about girls, about parents, about school, about all the other things. And apparently they enjoyed the kind of answers that I would give. And so that kind of just evolved, you know? So I kind of had like a two pronged approach. It was help men get stronger and help men be stronger. Yeah, so you talk a lot about, on your website, about, you know, there's physical weakness and physical strength, but, you know, there's also metaphysical weakness and metaphysical strength. And how would you define metaphysical strength as how do you help men become better in that way? Well, it's the inner stuff, right? The mind, the heart, the soul, the things that are like the ghost in the machine, you know? It's cool to build a powerful machine, but what really keeps the machine going really motivates the machine and is its essence, you know? It's why. And so when I talk about physical strength, it's very obvious, but when I talk about metaphysical strength, like the word sort of points to, it's next to physical, or it's in addition to physical, but it's also less tangible. And that's really where the root of our physical expression is, right? It's the soil from which the mighty oak or the puny bubblegum tree comes up out of it, right? Yeah. Really depends on the soil, right? The mindset, the heart, the soul. Yeah, so I mean, what are some of the ways that you help build that with men? So what's lacking more than anything in our world, particularly as it relates to men, are strong father figures, strong fathers, strong men, strong elders, men that young men can at least trust with their concerns or problems, men that mirror young men, that understand young men that are willing to put themselves in their shoes and support them in becoming all that they hope and maybe that the world has convinced them that they could be, but from a practical place, right? That's what practical patriarchy was all about. That's what the fathers did for the young men. And that's really, that's the big thing that's lacking right now. So if I have to recognize what I do at its root, at its core, it's I'm a father figure. I'm a father to four children. I've been married 18 years, married my high school sweetheart. I've been together for over 26 years. I had a strong father. I come from a strong family. My father is a patriarch, he's an alpha male leader. And I realized how much of a blessing that is and I realized how rare it is and I recognize how I can be that in the way that the internet allows for a lot of the young men that are father hungry. That's what Robert Bly says. Yeah, and there's a lot of guys who maybe did have that father figure out there who grew up in a very traditional environment or whatever and they kind of hate on young men who haven't had that because they see how they behave and whatever. And they don't realize that they didn't have that experience. Like you have to meet when men where they are not where you're like, well, he didn't grow up like me so he's an idiot, you know? And I see a lot of guys who were interested in my work who, you know, I always say they come from two camps. There's either the camp that, you know, they're done military service, they've had all that. They've done all those things. They've done all the man stuff and they just look at my work and they're like, oh, you were right. Yeah, that is correct, that is what I understand. And then you have dudes who are starting it like level zero, you know, like, what? Oh, I should be more like a man. All right, well, how do I do that? You know, and so, and you know, it's important, I think to recognize that there's a need there. And I think that's what you do as well, you know, recognize that there's a need that these guys haven't had that kind of leadership and they haven't had some kind of father figure and they haven't had any guy who actually wants to make them stronger because the whole world right now is telling them it's okay to be weaker, you know? Yeah, the world is designed in such a way, I call it diabolical disorientation where up is down and down is up. Male is female and female is male. Everything's so freaking confused that even if you grow up, like, I gotta use myself as an example, but even though I grew up with a father and with a strong father, because I was conditioned by the media, the music, the schools, I didn't, I not only didn't recognize the blessing of having a strong father, but I resented him. And so there's this push away called toxic masculinity. There's this push away from traditional masculinity. My father grew up in the jungle. He knew nothing about intersectional feminism. Right, he knows nothing about this garbage. He grew up in a jungle. He was the law of the jungle and he's the type of man that he had to be in order to literally survive. And so he didn't deal with our bullshit complaints. He didn't honor our flimsy requests. He had his way of doing things and that was it. And so I saw my friends who now in retrospect, I recognize, oh, they had weak dads. I saw my friends that could do whatever they want. They could say whatever they want. They could go wherever they want. They had very little boundaries and where that ultimately led, which is most of them live pretty degenerate lives at this point. So even in a world where there are no strong men, when a strong man shows up, people don't know how to respond or react to him. They don't know what to do. They get freaked out in the same way that people react to Donald Trump because Donald Trump represents the strong father they never had. They rebel. They just wanna fight. They wanna pull out their hair. They can't stand it that this man is so strong and we can't use shaming tactics to pull him down and to bend him to our feminist will. Yeah, no, I mean, it's a really natural thing, I think when you're younger to be like, screw you, dad, I don't like your rules, you know? I mean, men have been doing that since the beginning of time, that's what you do, but because you're trying to make yourself independent. And I did that too. I mean, I was a totally different person 20 years ago. But I had a pretty strong father figure as well. And what I actually got from him was, he was actually handicapped. My dad actually had polio. So he also has no sympathy for the virus thing. He had polio when he was a kid, but he was always of the mindset of that older school mindset of like, well, okay, so I have that. Well, I don't want people to feel sorry for me. I just wanna be better. I just wanna be treated as a normal and I'm just gonna do what I'm gonna do in life and be successful anyway. Right. And so he was very much- There's no values of being a victim. Yeah, exactly, like everybody wants to be a victim now. And my dad was like, my favorite thing is he, whenever somebody asked him out about his limp, he's like, oh yeah, I was in a car accident. Like he doesn't go into the story and make people feel sorry for me. And so I was lucky in that way too. I had a little bit of that. Yeah, now you have so many people that are telling men that it's okay to be saddened. That's the easy path, right? It's the easy path to just like, hey, you don't have to be anything. You can just be how you are right now and that's perfect. Yeah. And that's the message that they're getting. And it's kind of a mom message, right? Yes. You know, and that's good when you're five. You know, like you wanna feel safe and comforted and whatever, it's a mom message, but you need that order, that structure figure that is going to say, no, actually what you're doing is not good enough. Like you could do better. Mm-hmm. You know, cause that's funny that you say that. Yeah, go ahead. About moms, cause I was just re-reading, Steppen Arneo, may he rest in peace, his book, Hard Times, Great Strong Men. He has a great quote in there where he says, when things are good, everybody wants mom in charge. But when she hits the fan, everybody looks to dad to fix it. And right now, this is where we're at in history where things have been so good that mommy rules. Everybody wants the, it's the mommy culture, the cuddle culture, the you're good enough culture, which is completely soft, degenerate, and does, is not life affirming, does not, is not life affirming for men. And so we're gonna hit these hard times. And that's why we see strong men making a comeback because there's this sense, and we don't even have to sense it. It's just a part of the cycles of life that these hard, these times that are evolving or devolving into pure debauchery are going, what we're gonna see is the rise of the strong man once again, who's gonna fix it cause it's all fucked up now. Man, I hope so. There's a, there's definitely, something that really interests me right now is the difference between order and disorder. And because order and chaos, and what we're seeing is a lot of chaos because it's complete permissiveness. And really like, oh, you can just burn things down and break windows and do whatever you want. You know, it's fine. It's temperature. Yeah, like, you're showing us your feelings. It's fine, you know? But that's not how society works. I mean, that's not a productive, long-term strategy for anything. And you need some kind of order in life. And I think that that's one of the spiritual things that men are really oriented around is creating order. And that's their job. That's the father's job. The patriarch's job is to create order around him. Cause, you know, you can't just, you know, the other option is the womb, right? I mean, you just go back to the womb and everything's comfortable. You know, take some heroin, you know, like you're like, everything's a beautiful dream and it's fine, you know? But, and that's why, you know, you bristle against strong father figures because they are aggressive and they're asserting rules and they're making lines and they're saying, this is not this, this is not that, this is good, this is evil, this is permissible, this is not. And people don't like to be, I mean, you know, like I walk my dogs and they would like to just roll whatever they want. But, you know, hey, it makes me look like retard. And then, which I don't mind most of the time, but there's certain times you have to teach them to do some things so that, cause they'll run out on the street and get hit by a car. You know, like they'll just do whatever and you can't really do that. And I think that when you, if you look at the history of feminism, it's, a lot of the big literature comes out of the 1960s and the 1960s and the 1970s. And a lot of it is, you know, you can go back and look at it now and it's pretty obviously daddy issues. You know, you have this whole generation where their parents fought in World War II and went through a great depression. You know, they were hard men and maybe they were a little closed off because they've seen some shit. You know, but maybe they're a little closed off, but then there's this whole therapeutic movement that came out of, you know, the 1960s and 1970s with baby boomers where they were saying, you know, like, you know, men, my father never felt emotion. He has this John Wayne attitude and, you know, like he needs to be more sensitive and more in touch with himself. And they started pushing men this whole generation. And what we're seeing, I think in many cases is the end of that. Because baby boomers are now like retiring. And they've created this world that we're living in now with their daddy issues. You know, it was certainly, you know, it's like one of the, I actually brought it to the last 21 convention. There's a book called, I think the 49% majority. And it's one of the first books like this. And it's all these essayists from like 1971 or something like that in 1969. And they're writing about stories about how, you know, like, it's all against John Wayne. You know, like they're all mad about John Wayne, basically. And then you'll see that repeated even in, you know, 2020 when no one even knows who John Wayne is, you know, like he hasn't affected our lives, you know, but they're just repeating these tropes. And so a lot of this is so, it's just a repetition of things. So I guess one of the things that I get questions a lot about and you get questions a lot about, I think is obviously we're in some interesting times right now. And you run a camp about being grounded. You know, however, it's really hard for men to keep it together right now. I mean, and it's their job to keep it together because that's what men do. Right. If dad's freaking out, then everybody freaks out. Right. So, you know, it's really important for men to not let their emotions get away from them and stay the course, you know, and not be just pulled into whatever craziness that's on the news. I love that you talk about the news being a problem. You know, like people watch the news every day and it just gets them riled up and they want to go in with this direction and that direction and they just lose it. But that's with everything. Yeah, oh, it's sensationalism. We've become addicted to feelings. So if it's not pornography, if it's not smoking weed, it's not video games, if it's not the new movie where shit is blowing up, it's the news. The whole thing is that we have become overly very addicted. I guess that's really the right term. It's an addiction to these dopamine feeling hits that come from the myriad of entertainments that we have at our disposal. I like the way you put it when you said we live in a bonobo masturbation culture. Yeah. That's really what it is. It is. It is. I mean, and this, what's happened with, you know, like the virus, whatever, like it's been, it's what I said in that chapter basically like, be alone together, sit in your home and jerk off and watch movies, watch Netflix all day, and you never have to go out, don't go out and talk to anybody, don't go out and do anything. Right. Sit in your home and consume. And that's, and consume like whatever, you know, it'll be interesting to see what happens when they run out of Netflix shows because they aren't producing them. So I don't know what's gonna happen when that happens. I think that would be a great thing. It'll be great. Netflix would just blow up. Sometimes I wish the internet would blow up. In fact, I'm a little bit of a weirdo, but like I'm kind of excited about the way things are crumbling. Like I want to be, I want to fix stuff. You know, that's just my nature. I like chaos because I like grabbing it by the horns and making it right again. So as these things start falling apart, like I'm almost sitting here, like this is just the moment I've been waiting for. I know a lot of guys like that. Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing too. It's like men are against chaos, but it defines them as well. You know, like men want to create order, but we don't get to do our job of creating order unless there is chaos. Right. And it's a little boring. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I know I have a best friend who, if there's a snowstorm and everything's screwed up and no one can drive on the roads, he's like, woo, this is perfect. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And that's what men do is they create order from chaos. But yeah, it does define us. You know, one of the things I'm writing about right now is that, you know, if you think about the great heroes, they're all defined by their monsters. Like they're defined by, like you think theses. Oh, well, minotaur. You know, like what monster did he kill? What did he do? You know, and so we're defined by our monsters in some way. So this time that's happening right now is our monster, depending on, you know, how it evolves and whatever, you know. It's definitely the monster. As opposed to fighting fake monsters, right? Right, video games. With the video games. Yeah, yeah. So it's all make-believe stuff. And it's interesting because given the affluence and the time that we have in our hands, you would imagine, and maybe our ancestors perhaps use this, you know, affluence a little bit differently. But this is a time where we can actually go in battle inner demons. Like you don't have the wolf literally at the door. You have everything that you need. So why not take the moment to turn in and look at the inner dragons and evolve that way. But I guess that's difficult when you've got, you know, instant porn and video games at your fingertips. So you could just numb yourself with fake dragons rather than going and dealing with those inner dragons. Until the inner dragon, as you may know, gets so ferocious that you can't ignore him anymore. And then, you know, you have a crisis, but that's usually, again, that's a good thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's definitely, you know, most, and the thing is for all the complaints about society as it was, say in 2019, there obviously there were a lot of very successful guys. I mean, obviously you made your success during that period, you know, like all before that in the world, as it was, while people were sitting around playing video games and jerking off and doing it, I mean, the people who want to do it will do it, you know, and then there are a lot of people that are just, you know, like kind of there to feed the machine. And, you know, it's better that we have, if we get more people who aren't there to feed the machine, that's good. But there are a lot, you know, people have always been that way to a certain extent. You know, there's the mass of, they've always been kind of, you know, they'll do whatever. We've become more and more useless. You know, those, I was listening to an audio program by Mike Adams, the health ranger, and he's talking about this global reset that's imminent. And he explains, you know, why it's happening and what's going on. And in the program, he talks about how the, how you would say the lords of this world, maybe, recognize that 90% of the people, especially in these, the most recent generations, cannot do anything. They can't do anything except swipe right and charge their phone. They have absolutely zero skills whatsoever. So in a way, they are basically useless people. What's the point? Just get rid of them. Yeah, yeah, I mean, and we'll see. I mean, who knows? I mean, there's so many different ways you could go with the, you know, the things that are going on right now. But that's actually one of the things I wanted to bring up because I was really excited. You put out a video called the American Mindvirus and I just reposted it on YouTube and whatever. And it was good because you were saying pretty much what I was saying at the same time, you know, and people maybe wouldn't expect that or whatever. I have guys in my inbox every day. I had one last night, you know, like in my DMs being like, how with all the, you know, the riots and the BLM and da, da, da, da, da, da, you know, like how do I keep it together? And this guy was a veteran, you know, like he's seen combat and he's like, how do I not let this go? Get out of control. And because I think that, you know, you talked about it in your video and you know, it being not a black or white thing, it's a good and evil thing. Right. And it really is. It's order versus chaos. We see chaos happening everywhere and it's not okay. And a lot of men want to go and do something about it, but it's really easy for them to be pushed in the wrong direction. Yeah. And you know, I keep saying to everybody like, you know, race war is a pleb war. Like that's what they want because that's easy and it'll be short and stupid and it'll draw in everybody who's capable and thematic and wants to be angry and right some wrong. And then those people all kill each other or go to jail or whatever. And then you just have the genderless worm people that can't do anything, you know? It's like, let's pull everyone into this giant conflict and it just seems like such a piece of theater. Yeah. And it's like, it's a bad direction, I think for everyone to go. So I was really excited to see, you know, you putting out that same message, you know, that it's not about that. You know, like I think that there are men who love freedom all around the country and they want freedom in order. Right. And that's, if you're gonna have a war, let's have a war for that. Let's have a war for freedom in order, not like these people against these people because that's all, like you said, a divide and conquer thing that they're doing. You know, because they, like it's, men all around the country who care about freedom in order. Right. I think those are manly men. Those are usually men that have had fathers. You know, they pointed, they pin it like black and white, you know, they use all kinds of contrast to pin us against each other, but chaos versus order in a lot of ways is fatherless homes versus fathers in the home, single mothers versus two parent homes. And so a lot of those, a lot of these angry kids that are out there and adults that are out there causing the chaos, they do not understand, cannot appreciate, have never experienced any type of real masculine order in their lives. All they know is chaos. Yeah. Yeah. And now they're just being free reigns. It's like, you know, like let my dogs out and let them do what they really want. You know, like, well, they're just gonna make a mess. I saw the slight guy who owns a strip club in Portland sent me a video of people setting off fireworks and doing like, you know, I don't know what they're called like burnouts or, you know, like whatever in this, in the middle of the street because there's streets are blocked off, no one cares. You know, he said they were doing that for like all night. You know, basically like it's just, it's like a, it's like a crazy dystopian movie. You know, it's sad because, you know, I always feel bad for businesses like small business owners, you know, in these communities like, because, you know, you're a business owner, you know, I have my own business and you put your whole life into that. You work really hard to make something and then to watch it just be destroyed by this rolling chaos that no one cares about. You know, like no one will stop. Must be really, really just crushing, you know, for those people, you know, it's really sad. But so, I mean, how are you helping? I mean, are you getting the same, you know, feedback from dudes like, how do I, I want to go join the fight or I want to go create something, you know, get involved in some stupid shit. I mean, what are you telling those guys? Where are you getting them? Well, I think we have in our constitution a really good, a really good institution for this. It's called the Second Amendment. And the Second Amendment isn't just about being able to bear arms. It's about being able to organize militias. And you know, they will make it seem in the media today that there's something right wing or there's something racist or white supremacist about that because it's from the constitution. But the fact of the matter is that the founding fathers understood that at some point good people will need to get together to protect freedom in order, like you were saying. And so I've discovered and have been urging the men in my programs to check out your state's law rules are on it. And if there is any organized state militia. And so what happens is that Florida has an organized state militia. They do lots of training and they are, they're ready, willing and able to step up to the plate when things go awry. So that's just one example, which I think is probably one of the better things to get involved with because it's written right there in the constitution and the founders of our country knew that we were gonna face times like this. And so they put that in there so that we could defend ourselves. We could defend freedom. We could defend the constitution. And so that out of the chaos, perhaps some order will be reestablished. Man, I hope that's the way I go. Cause I don't think the people playing in the streets realize that what happens if you flip that switch and you have 20 years of war veterans that have already been places killing people. Right? There's a lot of experience and a lot of weapons out there. And I think that, I'm actually amazed that things haven't touched off more than they did. When things first started happening, I was like, I actually put a video out which I pulled down later cause I'm like, now I'm mad. But at first I was like, I was like, you know when Corona first came out, I was like, hold on, don't go crazy. Cause I know so many guys who were like, it's time. You know? And I'm like, hold on, like let's see what's happening now. And then, you know, a few months went by and I'm like, okay, now I'm mad. You know, like, and I had to look at, I mean, I can't really join Alicia cause that becomes a news item. It looks like, I look like the bad guy that joins the militia. But those are the good guys and the militias are where the ex-military law enforcement, right now it's happening and law enforcement is backing the side of the militias. Oh yeah. And I'm talking about like constitutional militias. I'm not talking about, you know, private organized guys who are just looking for trouble. These are organized, not even organized, you know? They're not organizations at all. They're basically just Americans who love America who are protecting the constitution, protecting their rights and following the law as it was written. Right. So to me, it seems like that's the only right way. And if someone has something negative to say about it, that means they haven't paid attention. They're not actually, they're un-American. Oh, well, I mean, yeah, everything that's happening is un-American, un-American, you know, like, and that's where they're at. I mean, but I just have found in the past when I joined a group that it becomes a thing. But so, but what I did do, just because I'm like, well, let's do whatever I can that's legal before whatever happens is gonna happen. Right. And I didn't make a big deal about it because I wasn't sure how it would be taken or whatever, but I volunteered three or four times to be, I've been sitting out at the recall the governor booth taking signatures with all the little ladies of whatever, like, doing, I'm like, this is what we have right now. Right. So like, let's do something that's positive. You know, because I didn't know what to do. So I'm like, I'm gonna do something that's positive and see if maybe we can get this evil woman governess thrown out and at least kind of send a message. Right. And that's the starting thing. I mean, if you look at actually the American Revolution, I'm actually reading George Washington's biography right now, the one by Chernov. And A, if you read that and you don't feel like you've been lazy, then you're pretty awesome because that dude does a lot. Yeah. He got a lot done. And, but if you look at the way that those guys handled that, I mean, they had, you know, several years of like sending petitions and protesting and be like, until there was finally like, okay, well, there's nothing else that can be done. Right. You know, they were all rich land owners that are like, they were being screwed. You know, and I think that that's probably what has to happen if anything real is gonna happen. But, you know, you actually have to get some people with some money and some interests that are being screwed involved. Cause that's generally how it works. Where are the lawyers? You guys were mad, you know? Yeah. That's the first thing I asked when all the mask mandates started happening. I'm like, where are the lawyers? Cause really, you're right. That's where the battle begins. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You need people who are invested on that level. Some just kind of interested to see like, cause there's a lot of, there's a lot of mainly dudes out there and they're online, they have big names or whatever and they have that kind of background and they have, you know, they have all this going. I'm like, just interested to watch as how many of them jump forward and be like, okay, that's my line. Like that, no, we're not doing this. Right. You know, so it'll be interesting to see how it unfolds. I think like you said, we're in interesting times for sure, but. So what are some of the things that you're most excited about now, aside from chaos and taking the bull by the horns? Well, I think that's it. I think that's what I'm most excited about right now. Chaos. Yeah. I feel like I've been waiting for this my entire life. Watching as things devolve. And you know, this is not the first time I've experienced to this particular degree. I think every election to cycle, there's probably some form of chaos and you know, in some way shape or form, but it seems like it's reaching a climax. And I don't want to be a pretend like I'm a prophet or anything like that or honor prophecy too much. But it's been written that we're going to reach this moment of tribulation and chaos and challenge and I'm ready for it. I want to be physically ready for it, you know, training my body, training with firearms, prepping in my home, preparing my family, but then also sharing that message with other men because even if shit doesn't hit the fan and that, you know, and they're a literal, you know, which there already are, but like burning in the streets, like all of America doesn't collapse, we're still at a point where what will be required for any of this to take a good, take a right turn, to take the right turn is for men to come back to what make men manly and to do strong man things, like being able to provide, right? Without having to rely on the food trucks, without having to rely on microwaves, protect without having to rely on the police because now they want to defund the police, right? And prepare for the inevitable. I think that's what men did in order to create civilization anyway was to fight against or to put boundaries up against the chaos of darkness and things have just been way too easy. Like I kind of resentful about how easy things have been. I kind of look for trouble. And if I don't have enough trouble in my life, I'll go and get into trouble. But now it's like, I'm climaxing, and I'm like, I'm like a kid. I'm like, yes, it's the perfect time in my life. You know, I have a home. I have my family. I've got enough resources. I'm ready. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It'll be challenging. I mean, I think, in many ways, like the whole defund the police thing, I kind of want them to do it. Okay, this is a teachable moment. Like I want them to do it. And then for everyone to see with their own eyes what happens, right? Because I'm not just like a bunch of kids in university saying, you know what would be cool if we had like community policing that just like shamed people for doing their own things. No, that's not how, that's not what works. And my best essay I ever read, ever wrote most shared thing I ever did was called Violence is Gold. And that was really, people always think that it's like me wishing that, you know, I wanted to live in the third world country and be surrounded by violence. And no, it's just me understanding how the world works. Me like, I think you're an adult. Like if you take away the people with who will stop you, someone else from doing something, everybody can do whatever they want. And most people will take advantage of that. You know, like most people will. Most people are pretty good, you know, by nature they'll behave themselves within a certain parameter. But you know, we all break the law a little. We all speed a little bit in the car. We all do this, you know, push the boundaries a little bit. And if there are no boundaries and there's no thing that you're going to get caught for, yeah, that's complete chaos. People will do whatever they want. I mean, the only reason someone doesn't break into my house at night is because they think they're going to get caught. You know, they're not even worried about me, you know, like if, because they don't know me. But some stranger kind of trying to break into a house, they, the thing that's stopping them is that, you know, eventually some men with guns are going to come and put them in handcuffs and put them in a concrete, you know, like playpad for forever. And so they don't do it. Yeah, unless they have no ability to plan whatsoever. You know, but, you know, but if you take that, that thread away of those guys with guns coming to forcibly take you away because that's violence, then you, you have a problem. So I, you know, just have mass chaos. So I mean, I'm glad I don't live in a big city. You know, that I was really glad I didn't live in a big city. Like as this has unfolded, I'll probably move here soon. I think to a slightly bigger area cause I'm bored. But, you know, there's not enough people here. It's not enough cool dudes doing cool things. But, but yeah, I think that I was glad I didn't live in a city, but I do see that in the cities, things are going to get really bad, really fast, you know, cause people just don't realize how protected they are and have always been in their lives. And so it'll, I want them to defund the police. Do it, do it, let everybody know, let everybody see. And that might be the kind of like turning point, you know, like you were talking about. If things get bad enough that people understand why rules are there. Right. Yeah, you know, like, oh, I sure wish. And as you said, for men as well, you know, as this started and everything's been unfolding, you know, I've talked to a lot of guys who, you know, think that this might be a really good teachable moment for men like, hey, and women, you know, like women like, oh, I might want a man around. Right. This is how the patriarchy makes its comeback. Like I said earlier, we should hit the fan, everybody wants daddy to fix it. Daddy is bored right now. It's mommy ruled world. And it's turned into complete chaos. So a number of things that's gonna be a byproduct of this is men will be forced to be strong again. They'll have no choice and women and children will, not because they're coerced, but because it is just prudent to begin respecting men again. Yeah, I mean, evolutionary history, it's like there's this narrative that men have always oppressed women. And that's why, you know, we've just been keeping them down for all of history forever. You know, like it's some conspiracy that men have been doing. But reality, it's a prudent division of labor. Right. In actual order. I have men do what they're best at doing. They need to go out and risk their lives and kill things and hunt things and whatever. And you have women raising kids and building relationships because it's not like women's only purposes to raise kids. They also, you know, I always say, if you don't have a woman in your household, you don't send Christmas cards. Well, I like how you say that women represent the future. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, they represent the future and they build all the relationships and they make sure everybody stays connected and do all these things. I mean, it's women who scrapbook and you know, like there's all these things that women do that are really good for a community and they need to be done that men usually don't care about. You know, like that's not what I do. But, you know, I think that, you know, yeah, hopefully if people are forced to realize that there is a good divisional labor there. Right. You know, and that it's not about oppressing women. You know, like men's purpose is to oppress women. You know, that's a Marxist idea that infiltrated our culture through the universities and the media to destroy our culture. It is against one another. We see it with BLM. But BLM is run by lesbians, by feminists. So it's just a different manifestation of the same dilemma that we found in the garden with Adam and Eve and the serpent sneaking up besides his wife's ear and telling her, you don't need to listen to your husband and his father. You can do whatever you want. Kill the baby in the womb. Be your own woman. You don't need him. And so it happened in the beginning and we're watching the blood in the streets right now. BLM as a manifestation of the same thing. Totally. And it's so hard to get people to understand that because there's so many, I mean, honestly, there's so many like white people who want it. They wouldn't do the right thing. They want to be fair and be nice. And so they're supporting this thing and not seeing what it is, you know, like they say. And like it, that's not nice. That's not like decent law abiding cool black people. You know what? Like who are about freedom and order. It's not the, that's not what's happening out there. It's like you said, it's Marxist lesbians people riling up. I always, I mean, I think it's really, they're the mirror of white nationalists, you know, in many ways, you know, like, and those people are fucked up. White nationalists are super fucked up. I know too well cause I hung out with them for a while. And then, you know, it's the other mirror of that. They're both dysfunctional. A lot of political activists, I think generally are just really dysfunctional people. The difference is that everybody has adopted BLM as their stepchild is something wonderful. And I think it's because say it's so sneaky that he has this, I mean, they did such a good job. Take the phrase, black lives matter, and use that to support this evil Marxist organization. So when you say black lives matter, you can't argue with that, right? Otherwise you're a racist. You can't say black lives don't matter. The opposite is not that black lives don't matter. I like to tell people that I just don't support black lives matter. Black lives matter is an organization. Black lives do matter, but black lives matter is evil. Yeah, yeah. No, I totally agree. And it's really unfortunate that good people who want to do the right thing can't see that. Because that's what gives them so much power. You know, it's like if, you know, like Oprah's not just, you know, how about you build a hospital black neighborhood, like do something like decent and good instead of just funding this political organization of comments, you know, like there's so much that could be done with all this money that's being thrown at this evil thing. Right. You know, so many that could actually help black people live better lives. Right. And the other thing, I mean, that's what bugged me about it is that, man, all these, you know, like burning down all these neighborhoods and small businesses and stuff. If you want to rise out of poverty, you need a middle class to go to. And everything that's happening right now is kind of destroying the middle class. It's like the middle class is where people who have pulled their shit together and made something of themselves. It's not all just people who just magically have it. You know, like I was driving a delivery truck like in 2007, you know, like I didn't have money. You know, like you just, you know, work at something and find out what you're good at and get better at it and, you know, work hard. And that's even a value that they're, I've seen them like take down. Well, it's the welfare state. You don't need to do anything. You don't need to learn how to do anything. And you're entitled to handouts. Yeah, it's, well, an allowance is what it is really. I mean, that's, and that's how you know that you're still being treated like a child. Right. You know, like that's daddy giving you an allowance or mommy is giving you allowance every week. And then you can go and play and do whatever you want. And you don't have to like grow up. Right. And actually take responsibility for what you're doing. You know, that's, that's really unfortunate. I mean, you know, like you said, we've all had it a little easy compared to, you know, people who had to dig in the ground for food, you know, like, but, you know, we have to look too far. I mean, we look at like Venezuela and Argentina. These countries that lived in the type of affluence that Americans take for granted that with the flip of a switch, they're digging, they're not digging in ground. They're digging in dumpsters. You know, they're wearing normal clothing like you and me digging through dumpsters. And if we want a good look at what we're, what's in store for us, if we keep going down this route, well, then we have it. A really good contemporary example in Venezuela. Oh yeah. Well, and it's being played out. I mean, I went to Portland for the first time in a few months recently. And I just went to have some cigars with some buddies who I've been friends with for years. And I didn't even go downtown, you know. And Portland used to be a really beautiful city. I moved there from LA and I loved it. I'm like, this is clean and nice. And like it's pretty working class and like there are some hipsters, but they're probably like a thousand of them is before Portland and everything. And you know, it was a nice place. It was a beautiful city. And it is a garbage jump now. It is a complete garbage jump. I mean, driving down streets, I'm seeing nothing but tents and tents and tents and like converted buses and people living out of their cars and all this kind of stuff. And you know, like all the stores are like boarded up with OSB and then I have the graffiti all over them. And like this was like one of the easiest, nicest places to live like eight years ago. Wow, it happened so quickly. Yeah, I mean, but I mean, all that happened in the past like year. Yeah. You know, it was, Portland was becoming so affluent that like, and their streets weren't built for it was one of those smaller kind of cities that all the stores, they started, I know cause I used to drive a truck and you couldn't drive a truck through these places to deliver the fancy food that all the hipsters wanted to eat. Like you still drive, truck drivers don't have to get through there, you know? And so there just wasn't room for all this growth that they were having. And now it's just a dump. And I don't know if anyone would ever want to put money back in that city for a really long time. Yeah. And I think we're seeing that happen in New York City now. Yeah. COVID, LA of course has been a shithole for a while. A lot of the cities that's, people are fleeing. People are leaving the city if they can because the cities are going to shit and they're all Democrat run cities. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I like, I really like the way you pulled Adam and Eve into it. That was a good, it's always good to use myth. I mean, that's what myth is for, right? Myth and religion and all that. I mean, that's what it's for, is to tell a story that makes sense in a way that is universal. I mean, that's, yeah, I mean, that makes sense because we're watching it happen now, it's happening then, you know? Like, and all myths in all cultures are really like that. You know, you look back and they're like, you know, if you've lived some life, you're like, you know, you're a similar age. You know, if you've lived some life, you're like, yeah, I've seen that one happen, you know? If you're a kid, they all seem crazy. But like, if you look at the underlying message to so many things, myth is important just because it tells a story in a way that is relatable to everybody, but you're gonna watch it play out again and again and again. Yeah. So what are some of the other myths and stories? Because you incorporate a lot of stuff into your grounding camps and so forth. I mean, I remember when I first kind of became aware that you were speaking at 21 and I was like, I was checking out. I mean, I knew about you years ago, but like I was checking out your feed and whatever. And I had just been out to Enelope because that show had been on about Oshona and you were quoting Oshona. I was like, what? I was like, that's crazy. Oshona fans. I mean, that was a good show. You know, like they did some cool stuff and they're not wrong about everything. But because I live in the town actually, because actually right now I live in the Dalles, the town where they were the poisoning happened. Wow, that's where you live. Yeah, that's where I live right now. Yeah, so yeah, it was only like a two hour drive. I drove down to Enelope to see where they had there, saw some of the old, you know, like buildings that they had that are still down there. And I just wanted to check it out because obviously some history happened that I had no idea about before that show. But, you know, I was interested because obviously that's some very Eastern stuff. Yeah. So what are some of your favorite things that you pull in to help convey your message to men? Well, you know, any message that I share with men come from my own internal search, my own seeking. And so for me, being of mixed race, growing up in Long Island, New York, one of the questions that adults and even my peers would ask me is, Elliot, what are you, right? And so that's kind of a very obvious question when they were asking me, but it's also a very existential question and one that I wrestled with from the time I was a kid, like, what am I? And so I just happened to maybe be around 12, 13 years old and I was in the library. And I came across the philosophy section and I found a book that said, what are you? Like, what are you really? I think it was the name of the book by a quantum physicist and also a Buddhist by the name, I think it was Apollo May, I think it was his name. And my mind was blown when I started reading about religion and science as a means for self-exploration. And so that led me down, you know, all kinds of rabbit holes my entire life. I didn't grow up with the internet, but when I was in college, maybe like my first, that's maybe like 1998 or something like that. And my brother and I would get on dial-up and we would use Napster, which is a file sharing that was way before YouTube, way before iTunes and all that shit. And we came across the work of Alan Watts and we'd be sitting there. I must have been like 19, 20 years old and me and my brother would just sit there for hours on and listening to this witty English dude talk about the religions of the East, Buddhism and Hinduism and Taoism and the living philosophy that came out of it, came out of them. And it just resonated with me so deeply. I grew up Catholic and also living in the West where Christianity has been all but destroyed through feminism. Christianity, I didn't feel like it offered me much, right? Doesn't offer men much at all because it has been subverted by the same communists that are destroying our schools and our media and Hollywood. So the church has fallen into apostasy as a result and I could see that now as an adult when I look back, but I was seeking. I wanted something, I wanted to know who I am. Why am I here? What is God? What is this all about? And so that thirst, which has never been quenched, I don't think it's ever really quenched, began to receive some quenching at that age. And so I've explored so many different religions and philosophies, I'm grateful for the fact that the internet has exposed me to all these ideas, but then at the same time, it could also be daunting, right? Because they're all truths, right? Depending on who you ask and in what context and when and where and why. And so it's chaos, you know? And so in looking for order, I just found more chaos. It'd be more books, more different religions, more gurus like Osho, more philosophies to the point where I was like, I can't stand it anymore. It seemed almost like the quest for oneness, the quest for truth, the quest for order had done nothing but make my mind and heart more confused and more chaotic. And I think that's where a lot of us are, you know? The destruction of the West, of course, has a lot to do, in my opinion, and you could see it with the destruction of the church and the destruction of religion. But at the same time, the infiltration of all kinds of New Age stuff, which does, among other things, creates more confusion. What to believe? So, you know, we're at the point here where everything, everything is completely subjective. What do you feel? What do you want? What do you think? Which is the complete antithesis to order. There's absolutely no order when everybody's whatever they wanna be. Yeah. You know, and everybody can think whatever they want. Your truth is one of the terms. Yeah, your truth, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly, they're like, you know, plankton. They're just kind of floating around whatever hits them, hits them, and they're like, they're just floating around the ocean. And there you go. Whatever's stylish for the day, whatever's a new trend in religion. Exactly, exactly. But I mean, that's one of my projects is going back to, you know, connecting a lot of dots. Because that is a cool thing about the internet in this age, this is our fate. This is our fate to see all these things. You know, this is our age. And so, as Nietzsche said, you have to love your fate. And so, if you go back and connect all these things, and then you start to see how similar most of them are. I mean, you say like, you know, what happened to Christian shirts and what happened to, you know, so many religions as they get kind of like, you know, watered down and, you know, become kind of feminine and milk toast and whatever. But if you look at the oldest stories in the world, I mean, you know, I started out with the Germanic stuff, but then you look at the Greek stuff and you look at the Roman stuff and then you look at the Vedic stuff. That's all connected super tightly. The myths are basically the same. And then even jumping a culture that's not Indo-European, you go into like Sumeria and Marduk is Thor. You know, it's basically like they're Marduk. You know, he has to go kill a monster. And then like Odin does in the stories, you know, tear it apart and build the world from its corpse and create an order from, you know, this chaos. And it's just the same story. And that's like one of the oldest stories in the world. It's like written on tablets. And, you know, and so all these stories have a lot in common. There are a lot of the ideas that we're talking about, you know, like that men have always been in this conflict between order and chaos and that's what defines them. It's always been around. And so I think that's all there. If you could pull it together, it's always confusing because you have all these different like, you know, kind of feminizing messages and you have, you know, these communist messages and all these kinds of things that have to do with, I always connect them to Nietzsche's concept of resentment, which is, you know, basically like jealousy. You know, like, and that's what you see. Like, give me a handout, give me a thing. I deserve this because I'm alive. You know, like you have the things and you shouldn't have them. I need the things too. I mean, that's all resentment. I mean, so much of this society is based off of resentment. And so I think it's really interesting to connect the whole dots. And what you said about figuring out who you are, it's a very American question. It is very ego centric, narcissistic. That too. That too. And I'm totally fine with that. But it's a very American question because Americans are, they're all from different places in Europe. You know, like the original, you know, like the settlers they came in, the colonists and whatever. They're often different places in Europe. So you have Germans and you have Irish and they were all races against each other. And they didn't like each other at all. And then over time, they kind of become Americans. Right. But they're not any of those things that they used to be. Right. You know, like, I mean, I can go to Germany and be like, hey, I'm mostly German, but I'm not German. You know, like I didn't grow up in Germany. That's not my home. That's not who I am really. I'm an American. You know, like I've always been an American. Right. And so it's a very American question. Like, who am I really? You know, because people were looking for this old, old answer. Right. Like, what am I really connected to? Well, you're connected to the whole world that came here. You know, like that's what America is. Yes. So like it's a way to figure out what matters. And, you know, it's a bit of a tangent, but like the end of European myths, there's a bunch of cattle wrestling in it. Like in all the old myths, there's like who stole the cattle? The hero went and got the cattle back. And that's the American story because it's like a new place. You know, like there's so much of, you know, like the really old world that happened again in the new world. You know, so it's, I think, you know, that answers it for a lot of it to a certain degree. You know, like- Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah. You're American, you're American. Yeah. And that's what we're, and we have our own weird constitution and not just the physical one, but our own makeup. You know, like- Yeah. I don't like being told what to do. That's for sure, you know. Yeah, right. You know, I mean, there's a, we definitely have that streak in us still, I think, from the revolution. Yup. Part of our culture and part of who we are. Yup. So anyway, what do you have coming up? What do you- Well, we got the 21 convention. Yeah. I think I'm just coming to watch it and hang out. That's cool, man. Great place to be. Yeah. Yeah. So you're speaking of that, any preview about what you're going to talk about? Nope. I have no idea yet. I have some, I have actually last night in the shower I was thinking about some ideas that came up, but we'll see how that unfolds. Right, right. But I'm really excited about what the event stands for, you know, about making men great again, but then also the patriarch event for fathers. I really think that's where we're going to, the linchpin for all of this is going to be when fathers are strong again, families are strong again. That is the cellular nucleus of our society. If the families are weak, as a result, men are weak, so the families are weak, the whole society is going to, it is suffering. That's why we're suffering. We're suffering because men are weak and families weak. And then I love the idea that making women great again is something Anthony decided to put together. I think it's cool, but I think women will just fall into place when men become strong again. I don't think we need to teach them anything. They know exactly what they need to do, but what's required is for men to take our place first. You know, they say put women in their place. Well, I think women will just snap back into place when men are doing and being what men need to be. So I'm pretty excited about that. Pretty cool. I think those are awesome. And then I have my final grounding camp coming up after that, which is, I'm excited that it's done. I've been doing it for four years, but I've moved on to just different, different formulations of the same service and message. You know, COVID created quite a hit where travel has just gotten more and more challenging. I don't feel like getting on airplanes anymore. In fact, I probably just will not. I will not travel if they're gonna require me to dress up in their costume, their clown suit, and put on, or to have vaccines or whatever they're gonna force on me. I'm an American, man. So fuck you. That's right. So I'll just get in my pickup truck and wherever a gas is taking me, ask where I'm going. Yeah, so I decided to make a shift in that regard, man. So like I said, you know, mainly, I gotta be completely honest. I'm more selfish now than ever before. I was saying to my wife, well, I just wanna fucking disappear. And I don't wanna be on social media anymore. And of course I do, because it's what I do, it's who I am, but I can't wait for the day to just hide. I just wanna go away. That's it. That's my mindset. I just wanna disappear. But until then, who knows if that'll ever happen. Until then, it's a matter of just showing up and being E. That's all I can do, man. Awesome, man. All right, well, thanks for coming on Start the World. And I'll put some links to where you can find Elliot if for some reason you've been on a rock and you don't know where he is or how to find him. But, anyway, thanks again, man. I appreciate it.