 Good evening, everyone. Welcome to this webinar on post-COVID sports economy and the positive positive part sports can play in our lives and the larger economic ecosystem post-COVID. As we go through this terrible events taking place around us, sport continues to have an integral part in our lives. I've been reading some newspaper coverage recently and as you've seen a lot of papers, a lot of the websites have been running interviews of sports personalities, talking about last past cricket series, very popular cricket series, India-Pagistan, they've been doing Pakistani cricketers about Indian stars and vice versa. They've tried to keep the engagement, entertainment alive. A lot of us who do not indulge in formal sports, I'm sure, you know, do as basic as a humble daily walk. So physical fitness, obviously, is a very important part of our lives, especially during this time when health has become such a big prime concern. Related to that, organized sport has also provided us with immense entertainment as we've seen over the last many years, especially in India, with the advent of IPL before that, you know, the cricketing economy and now with so many other sports that are, that are, that has viewers hooked. At last count, we had seven or eight major leagues running on TV. There is, of course, the IPL, there is ISL, the badminton league. There is the Pro-Bollywood League, Pro-Kabadi League, Pro-Wrestling League, Tabletennis. These are some of the leagues that I've been able to count and I'm sure there are many more running. The three major ones, the big ones out of these are obviously IPL, Kabadi and football, which have the most amount of traction. I was going through one of the reports done by Group M, which says IPL last year in 2019 had a TV reach of 46 crore people. That's a huge number. That's almost a half of India's, you know, adult population being exposed to IPL on television alone. This does not count digital reach. That's a massive number. PKL, which is the Kabadi League, had across all its season 32 crore people touched in a year through television alone. ISL, which is the soccer league, had 16 crore people touched. So as you can see, the reach of sport is immense. The impact it has is immense and India, fortunately, has also evolved into a multi-sport interest country. And now that the league and matches have been deferred or cancelled, the overall impact of this cancellation, deferment on the Indian economy and overall sporting ecosystem is likely to be significant, goes without saying. As we have also seen some of the latest development, I am told, IPL is starting on 17th of June. So that's very good news. NBA is restarting from 31st of July, though in a curtailed season this year, Bundesliga is already back. And we've all read some interviews here and there, which say that BCI is also considering organizing some cricket matches, perhaps IPL behind closed doors in a September, October season, or one of the reports said it might happen outside India. So today's conversation is going to be centered around discussing the impact of COVID on the sporting ecosystem. And once we are out of it, what happens if we can do a bit of a crystal ball gazing? With me on the panel are four experts in the domain from various parts of the sporting ecosystem. I'm sure many of you know, beneath Karnik, who runs Group M ESP, which is India's premier sporting consultancy sport investment firm. Beneath and his team, perhaps are involved in 70, 80% of the sports investment decisions that take place in this country from an advertising point of view. Welcome, Vinay. Thank you for joining us. We have Amit Tiwari, who's the chief marketing officer of Havels, which is a large household appliances brand in India. They've been a very significant investor in sporting ecosystem in this country with budgets allocated across sports. I remember, Havels has been a sponsor of IPL for many, many years now. We have with us Satish Menon, the CEO of the Punjab team of IPL. Thank you, Satish for joining us. IPL, as we all know now, this year would have been the 13th year. And IPL drives the sports ecosystem in India. There's no running away from that. Jatin Paranjpeh, CEO and founder of Kailomore. Kailomore is about connecting people to their passion, which is sports, connecting people with various sporting arenas in the country. Jatin, as you all know, has also been an India cricket star. He's played for India. He's himself a passionate sporting icon. So welcome, Jatin. Thank you for joining us. Let me bucket this conversation in four or five areas and then one by one, we can take up the conversation. There are five angles I would, if I can put them on the table. First and foremost, what happens to fans? I was going through your report that you did in March, which said it's very important for league owners, for broadcasters, for team owners to keep fans engaged during the off season because fan loyalty is built over time. And dare I say, for cricket, that might not be such a big problem, but for other sports, it might be. And even cricket at the team level, keeping fan engagement, fan loyalty during a season when you're unable to play is very, very important. So one is the fan part. Second part is, of course, the financial losses that teams, franchise owners, broadcast partners have had to undergo because of COVID. Third is the grassroots level investment that gets impacted because of, again, financial issues. Then how do teams and the players themselves get impacted because of this? And lastly, brands that invest in sports, especially brands that invest over time, which want loyalty to be built associated with the sport, and suddenly you have so much disruption, it requires for you to restart the cycle all over again. So let me start with the first, one of the key reasons why sport exists is because of its fans. What do fans do and what can team owners, what can broadcasters do to ensure fans are kept engaged during a period like this when there is no live sporting action? Vinit, why don't we start with you? Thanks, Nehvel. Thanks for having me on the webinar. And yeah, absolutely relevant point. And actually, we are seeing a lot of broadcasters running some fabulous amount of sporting content, which people like us are queued on to because in absence of live sport, we have gone back to our libraries on various different utility platforms or could be on the television broadcast platforms who've been running a lot of repeat shows. But yes, I mean, the learning that we have from the COVID period from a fan engagement point, especially in times like these, non-life content becomes a very, very important part. And I have been over the last couple of years very actively talking about India taking the center stage on and creating some very interesting ideas around non-life content because I think we as a country haven't done enough in that space. So I'm sure a lot of the production community, the sporting community would have thought this the time that they have got. So I think non-life content becomes a very, very integral part. I mean, we have seen the show that NBA launched on Netflix and the kind of fan following it Bernard on social media in terms of the chatter. Now, if these kind of shows are developed in the Indian ecosystem, that possibly could have come handy at this point in time, right? So that's pretty much the scenario. I mean, what a fan wants from a consumption standpoint, we all know. And this is not only relevant for cricket, but it's actually more relevant for the emerging sport economy in terms of how can they develop the sport on the back of non-life content? How can they create national heroes through non-life initiatives and make them relevant in the off season? So I think we need to spend some time, evaluate various different ideas and options in creating non-life content for times like these now. Satish, what is the conversation you guys are having in your meeting rooms? Because, you know, with no clarity on IPL, how do you ensure that, you know, you keep your fans engaged, the interest levels heightened and the loyalty intact? So I think for a large part, it's digital media. Digital media, that's playing a large part. We actually engage with most of our players. We take our key players and create interactions. We have, of course, daily posts, which is standard, very last stuff that we have, you know, almost on a daily basis. We have an average of about three or four posts a day virtually going in there. A bit of stuff by way of, like Vinit said, you know, content which is out of the box that we create, which keeps the interest going. Well, that, you know, there's not much you can do beyond this, because to my mind, nothing that matches live content. I mean, why does one look forward to a game? I mean, the key to any match or anything is about contest. It's about the result. So, you know, so end of the day, you know, once the result is out, you know, then the interest level is only that much, you see. So to that extent, we're all looking forward to having the live game. And the only thing we can do is to actually make create a buildup towards that. You know, beyond that, there's not much we can do with it. Right. Amit, what's your opinion on that? Because brands also make a lot of investments for having continuity of engagement with fans. And down time, like these disrupt that continuity. Does Havels do anything or do a brand? Have you seen brands doing anything beyond just riding on live sports properties to keep the engagement going? Thanks, Novel. Good evening, everyone. I think, Novel, before we get into what exactly brands, you know, they're also on angle, which how does the consumer behavior have actually changed in last two, two and a half months? It's very important to see the fundamental change that has happened today that consumer is actually redefining everything. So what is happening in the consumer balances, if you look into sports or engagement as an activity, every consumer is trying to redefine what exactly is the use of entertainment engagement for them? How do we actually rebuild the entire ecosystem that you're actually trying to do for it? What does that actually mean? So indoor is the new outdoor in the entire ecosystem today. And our experience is coming indoor. So I don't care whether I'm actually able to go out and all and sports in the entire entertainment becomes much, much valid. So I just, I think two days back, I've just gone to a report. This is a bazoo bar report. It's a marketing report which comes every six months. And it clearly says today also marketers 40% of the people actually believe that the mainstream channel is sports, whether you are doing a live sports, whether you are in streaming sport, but my engagement has to be very, very high when it comes to sports. Now coming to a question in terms of what exactly is consumer looking what brands are looking, how are they actually moving? So there are three basic buckets which are actually moving is everybody is looking for how I'm getting engaged, either on-ground, on-air, how is my engagement level actually moving? What would be my experience that I'm actually able to do? It's all about whether you do a virtual event, whether you do a direct event, whether you are on-ground, it's all about what is the experience that I'm actually trying to build in the entire ecosystem? And how is my interaction happening? Am I able to see the virtual things that I want to see today? I can't hear, I know I can't go and participate in an on-ground thing, but how I can actually move. The point coming to the crux and why I'm saying all these examples to it is brands will still invest in advertising primarily, primarily on cricket or sorry, on the sports, irrespective whether it is live, whether it is non-life. Ideas, what is the level of experience and engagement that we're actually trying to do? It's a small study which is, which is done, I don't remember what exactly it is from, it is done from one of the which is a target audience between 13 to 39, around 50% close to 50% people really engage in last two months and all the gaming content which is available across platform, which is on TV, which is on OTT, whether it is available on digital, whether it is gaming, everything. So then you can actually make there's a lot of potential in the feed that can actually talk about that. Right. So yeah, I mean, keeping fans and fan engagement going audience or consumer engagement as you're saying during lockdown times is very important and some of the team owners are already doing that. Let me come to the second and perhaps one of the very important aspects of this entire conversation, which is the financial impact of COVID on this sporting economy. Now I was again going through some of the, you know, numbers and as per estimates, the revenue of the Indian sports ecosystem is around $1 billion as of last year, which makes it puts it in the range of around 7000 crores, out of which IPL alone contributes almost two thirds of the revenues around $600 million. Obviously, goes without saying cricket is a very large part of that. And with IPL postponed, and there's a little clarity on, you know, what is going to happen with this entire delay. There are two, three aspects that arise. First and foremost is what is the impact for the sports associations and the league owners. Second is what happens for the team owners with no fans in stadium. So for example, we all know that ticket sales form a small portion in India as compared to so the Western economies of the overall revenues of teams. So even if one were to equalize that that is that is still some revenue that goes away. And if there is talk about holding matches without fans, ground sponsorship is such an important part such an important aspect of the earning of the league owners and hence the teams and the entire ecosystem down low. How does the value of ground sponsorship change? So let me take these three, four aspects of the financial impact one by one. First and foremost is we all agree, I think that people are looking forward to, you know, watching live sporting action once lockdown opens. So there is no debate about, you know, what will be the kind of viewership or traction when it comes to sport. The important part here is twofold. One, if there is no fan in the stadium, Amit, how does that change things for you as a marketer, as an advertiser, as a brand which is wanting to invest in the sporting property? Let me start with you on this. I actually said in terms of now every particular marketer and every particular allied partner, whether it is a sports firm or whether it's a team or we really need to sit and rebuild and reboot what we actually do. We know what the situation is we can't change that situation. And irrespective, I'll tell you a difference in our interest is slightly different from what we actually look for it. If let's say fans are being allowed to go to the stadium, let's keep the hand to the heart how many fans will actually go today, because the fear is so high that nobody wants to do at the cost of their help, whatever you want to look for it. So if you see that today, we need to recreate what is the maximum engagement value that we can actually drive for the consumer, how we can actually maximize the bang for the buck that you really need to put and do the actual form of the entire investment to actually look for it. And if you compare last two particular seasons of let's talk about IPL only, even if I let's say associate sponsorship presented on stars and all, your 50% cost was there primarily to do it on the any of your whether it is on any of your digital platform to look for. But still brands are advertising, there are 224 brands advertising, let's say on a TV, there are half number of ad branch advertising on digital platform as which is which is itself is a big number to actually lock and talk about. So everything has to be recrafted keeping in mind what exactly is the movement of the situation we know the situation is the same situation what used to happen before 20 of March will not work what has happened and work for last year will not work new means of engagement new means of interaction and new means of how we can actually have our brand recall much higher in us because we will there would be multiple brands are gaining for the same momentum to build for but you have to be smart enough in terms of creating your own ecosystem that can actually make a differentiation in the entire scheme that you actually advertise for. So we need what could those new means and ways of interacting with fans and viewers be your own report said that the overall sports sponsorship market in India alone was at around 9000 crore mark in 2019. That's a significant number and it were to get significantly impacted because of COVID. We will obviously be much worse off. So what is the way to retain this kind of huge sum of money? See this the number that spoke about 9000 odd crores is is a culmination of on ground on their sponsorship both together plus the celebrity endorsement piece as well. Right. So yeah, I mean, there is no shying away from the fact that there's going to be an impact. Right. But the but the good the good news is that we are hoping and we are seeing things opening up now and and I think even if things come to a near normalcy and even we will look at any sport like an IPL or an ISL or a PKL this year without fans or closed door. I think it's it's fine because any which ways in my view, I don't think any of the advertisers gave more than 20% weightage for the on ground presence that they had on match days. It was I mean television I mean it was any any light sport is made for TV kind of and most of that is derived from that. So I would not worry too much as long as these are opening up. And I think we still have enough time to get the lost ground back from India perspective. I mean, I understand that worldwide things will never be the same because they have been some substantial scaled up events who have been cancelled but in India, we haven't seen a cancellation yet. I mean, we may have some kind of an impact in the short term. But I think we have about good six months now to catch up or catch up on on an overall revenue model. So I mean, fingers crossed. I mean, if things come to normalcy, if there is not a second wave in India, I think we have a good amount of time to catch up with with the lost opportunity in the last three months. And I think the the silver lining of this is that unlike the Western economies where a lot of the leagues run through the entire almost through the entire year in India, majority of them leave alone Kabaddi, which has multiple seasons in the year, three months, four month window in a year. So it is not that difficult to find that three, four month window anytime of the year, depending upon no clash with, you know, other sporting events internationally or an Olympics or something else. So I think that goes in in the favor of Indian League. So for example, badminton, which happens only one a year once a year, recently happens, we all know once a year, football again is only once a year, it runs for almost three and a half four months. But even if there is a delay, it is possible to fit it into a, you know, 12 month calendar rather than skipping it all together, which might end up happening. You know, for example, the baseball league in the US, they are having to curtail it, because you know, the months that have been lost have been lost for good, you cannot bring them back. Also, another novel here was that see India in India, the rainy season has already kicked off. I mean, we are seeing rains already for the last three days. Yeah. So technically speaking, we have only lost two months. Okay, so we have only so March and April are months, which which are lost I mean, so we can. So if if things go well, and if you are able to start August, or maybe September, I think we will still be able to but this is off season for live sport in India. So we need to, I mean, that's a good news. That's right. Satish, let me jump to you now because, you know, you are a team owner, you work very closely with the BCCI and the cricketing ecosystem. Obviously, what happens financially impacts every team. How do you see this play out? Do you think down the line, COVID will have a significant impact on the economic ecosystem of, you know, cricket in the country and what happens in the entire value chain? First, I stand connected. I'm not a team owner. I work for a team. Okay, so so to answer your point. No, so first, I just want to take up on what what Amit said and we need said in terms of and more beneath than what Amit said about engagement. And we need said that, that, you know, sports is made for, you know, broadcast largely well, I agree in terms of numbers, I have a big broadcast background. So therefore, that's true. But what what sponsorship does is what what Amit kept saying about engagement at the end of the day, the ground sponsorship creates touchpoints for you to be able to connect to be able to build a brand, you know, use this alien to be able to grab off on the on the audiences and the fans and so on and so forth. So in so far as that is concerned, and the worry there being if there are no spectators on the ground, how does that happen? Much of those key elements that are that are normally at play will happen. And what we will do from this year on is we basically will use all our digital platforms to be able to kick off all those engagements. For example, we'll start looking at for example, if it's, it's a brand which which has a specific target group, we will have we will have carved out the target group in a manner in which we will we will cater to that core target group, attract them to the brand, find the brand requirements as far as those audiences are concerned and create a connect and engagement on a long term basis. But to answer your other question, which is one of, you know, how is it going to impact, you know, cricket per se, or other sports per se, I would say that, I mean, it's a bit of a motherhood statement and saying that that you know that yes, as much as it would affect any other business, it will affect our sports for that matter. But I would think that this disruption is very temporary. People are just waiting to get back. And more so with cricket, because this is still a one horse drawn sport in this country, despite the fact that we keep saying that other sports are on the rise. But the kind of numbers that cricket throw up is is unheard of or unseen anywhere else in the world. I think it's the only country that can take, you know, so that extent, I don't see a worry at all when it comes to when it comes to cricket coming back. You know, people are waiting for live sports, and I'm sure that, you know, they're just waiting for star to bring back all their all the sporting properties that they may have. Yes, it'll bounce back. It's a matter of time. And India is a very resilient country. It's a matter of time before we we back on the in the saddle is the way that I see it. Let me come to Jatin now. Jatin, you, you're part of the ecosystem in a very interesting way. Apart from having represented India and having been part of team sport, you now also work with a lot of local sporting arenas. Now, we know now that in many ways, sport, you know, organized sport might come back soon in some form, even though it might be behind closed doors without fans and stadiums. But physical contact where somebody is required to go to an arena, I mean, you can't 500 people can't go to an arena and participate in sporting activities without keeping, you know, adequate social distancing. So how does that part of the piece which is more personal in nature get impacted beyond, say something like organized sport? How does that, how does that play out? I think, Nabil, you know, it has a very, very big impact on on sports participation. Let's not forget that sports participation is where the seeds of commercial success are soon, you know, so you need to you need to safeguard sports participation in terms of COVID-19. And there are two buckets in sports participation. One is one is your five to 15 kind of sports person in the age group of five to 15. The other part of sports participation is the amateur sports, sports person, you know, mothers and fathers and college going kids who are playing amateur sport, you know, as as a substitute for going to the gym five times, five times a week, they want to play at a football turf a couple of times a week, because they can play box cricket, or they can play a game of futsal. So I feel both these buckets are going to be usually impacted like Amit said, you know, one is what one is when the lock when the lockdown lifts, but the other is the mentality. So if you look at the five to 15, these decisions are taken by parents, until schools open, you know, me as a parent, I'm not going to send my son and daughter to go out and play till school opens in in in all its entirety. So I think we are basically from a business to explain it from a business perspective, your financial year just went from 12 months to six months, essentially, you know, so I think I think there will be things will fully start opening up around Diwali time, I think, and these are extremely challenging times for venue owners, for coaches, because you've got to look at the profile of these people. So most of the coaches in India are doing this as a second kind of job, you know, they're either working, working in a bank or they're working in some other institution, they are exports men and in their free time, they are coaching, you know, so so this this COVID piece would have a, you know, a terrible impact on their mindset, because they might say that, hey, you know, this, this coaching piece is too fragile to depend on from an economic perspective. Let me just go back and try to work in my company full time. That gives me more kind of, you know, stability. So so what I'm trying to say is that to safeguard these kind of unorganized pieces, right, these are sport essentially at the back end is unorganized. So to safeguard these unorganized pieces, I think there needs to be a coalition. There needs to be a coalition of custodians across court. So national sports federations working with the government, working with the BCCI to find out how they can rehabilitate the supply. Because let's not forget that the most threatened part of sport in India is the supply. You don't have enough cricket coaches, you don't have enough quality cricket coaches, you don't have enough football coaches, you don't have enough basketball coaches. So so if COVID actually makes current coaches to to leave coaching, then your graph on the supply side is going to go down. So I think I think what we are missing is a coalition of custodians who need to who need to use this time to to to help sustain the supply side of sport. Yes, I think government thankfully for the last four five years has been very focused on improving the sporting ecosystem. And I'm sure once they have a handle on what's going on with the economy, reviving the sporting ecosystem will also be on top of the agenda. We need let me come back to you and ask you another question. It is, you have a, you know, right point that ground sponsorship constitutes a small portion of or rather fan connect. Let me use the right word fan connect the constitutes a small part of what a brand requires to do as a part of their sponsorship package. But what we also know I was I was moderating a couple of panels with the CMOs in the last couple of weeks. The sense I've also got is that a large number of brands are very deeply impacted economically. Hence marketing budgets over the next six months to perhaps next 12 months will be under severe stress. And if marketing budgets are under stress, obviously the money that flow flows into sports from the brand side will not be the same. Some of the large sponsors who committed five years deals of course will be staying. But since 75% of the money comes from, you know, season to season, that money, the pool of the money will get impacted. What's the sense when you talk to because you guys work with a large set of clients across sectors, what's the sense you get from your set of clients in terms of how will investment into sporting properties pan out say over the next three to four quarters? That's an absolutely fabulous question now and, and I guess, I mean, the things that you're hearing from the marketing or the brand community is quite similar to what we are seeing. So the challenges they have currently, I mean, the kind of the topic that we are discussing today is perhaps off these relevance to them. If you ask me in so many words, in terms of today's times, the reason being the challenges that they're facing today is getting up to speed from the full frigid production capacity in terms of getting the entire full production set up operational at this point in time. Parallely, while the production set up comes to normalcy, they're looking at a massive infrastructure issue from a logistic and supply chain standpoint in terms of getting the getting the goods to the to the right places from a retail standpoint. Okay. And then about the challenges that we keep hearing at a retail space in terms of sometimes it's open sometimes shot left hand side right hand side various different models various states are talking about. So these are the first three challenges that any production or a CEO is going to be facing. Now, again, I'm seeing an opportunity here, an opportunity to possibly get our housing order because they and we are caused by discussing sport and investments in sport. This is a off season for sport. Additionally, if you look at 2019, post 24th or 27th of May, once the IPL final is over, you haven't seen in live sport or live event in India because it's rainy season, right? Now, how is the entire sporting ecosystem doing their setup in these two three months and are prepared for an August and September kind of a month to start live action in terms of sport is the story back home. Okay, because I think if we can put our acts together at the advertising community or the brand community will be ready by then because they will be coming in fast, they will take about a month or maybe maximum two months to get their house in order in terms of their supply chain, their production capacities and retail and stuff like that. So I think if we are keeping ourselves ready to start the live action, maybe by end August or early September, I think that's going to be bringing a lot of positivity to the entire fraternity. And when I'm saying fraternity, I include myself, I include Satish who represents a team, I include Amit who represents a brand and of course, Jatin who obviously is waiting for the entire setup to start up and start up, right? So therefore, I think if we put our house in order and be ready for September or August end, I don't think the impact is going to be very, very high because I'm again repeating this is off season. So while IPA is suspended, and if IPL comes back, as we are all hearing in the news and and the chapters around in the, I think, I think the loss will not be too much. I think I need my question is slightly larger. My question is that granted sporting action will be back. Fans have only say 1015% value in the entire marketing mix. But what do you do when a client does not have money? His business is very badly impacted. COVID has wiped off, you know, significant part of his top line, he's shipped off his marketing budget. If you had 30 sponsors last year, 10 of them are not even a position to talk to you for sponsorship. So what what happens from that larger point of view? It is not a question of, you know, whether a sporting property delivers viewership or fans or not, that is granted. But from a larger point of view, from an economic impact point of view, does that index of 100 becomes 7080? Naturally, it is not going to remain 100. So does it remain 8070? Or does it come down to 60 or 50? What happens there? Very difficult to put a number to that an hour. Okay, the reason I am a little optimistic about this is because see today we have seen a muted advertising on various different platforms. Okay, because today we are in a lockdown stage. Okay, I am talking about August, September, okay, from a sporting standpoint, I think imagine, I mean, just hypothetically, let me paint a picture. Imagine if everything goes well, and IPL starts in September 1st or 2nd week, okay, won't that bring positivity and reason for advertisers to advertise? Because by then, by then, they will also have to sell their goods, right and services. Because this entire, I mean, I completely agree with Satish that I think a very short term impact on on Indian economy, because we have such a strong local demand, we have a very, very strong local demand. And therefore, in the short term, yes, there is a muted demand from the advertising community. But I think three months or four months down the line, I am pretty optimistic that things will start coming to your normalcy. And in that scenario, whoever comes first, and whoever launches the first live action sport is going to re benefits out of it. That's absolutely that there's no denying that. Let me come to the next question now. Next point, rather, again, since we're talking about financial impact and since brands and advertisers invest significant amount of money. And since that runs the sporting economy, especially in a country like India. Amit Tiwari, what happens to the objectives that you want to say, for example, you've been sponsoring certain league certain team for a good part of five years. And certainly, you have so much disruption that, you know, the season gets cancelled. And for almost 12 months, you are, you're disconnected with the fan. Does that create significant disruption in your plans in terms of how you saw that property delivering for you? Because as truth holds, you don't have money, so much money to go around that you sponsor all the leagues and hope that you know, two or three of them will always be on at a given time. Well, before getting into this question, I think what just to take back what we need was saying, I have a little difference in what we need. So point of view is, see today, it's not about and as you rightly paced about the previous question is if you talked about in terms of just the lesson league will start the IP will start. But today do really the brands of the money to actually look for that. And second thing is what will I gain today? What will be my particular objective even if I let's say I sponsor XYZ team or XYZ sponsorship patterns on any of the IP? What will be my particular objective that is time to be fulfilled? Because if you see if you run on a grand December calendar or you run on April March calendar financially or 50 60% of markets already gone, we really want to save the money because gashes everybody wants to keep it because that is what actually decide how do you want to move to your particular future. So I have a little disconnect with that whether really any particular brand would be thinking of coming to the second part of having discussing with a lot of other my particular counterparts within the community and the fraternity because there are people who are actually put in five years, two years, three years commitment in terms of moving forward. There are also some things that already started about T20 World Cup was supposed to happen in the month of October in November. And the way things are moving that yesterday, the fans will definitely move on to a different space. There are other important and technology means which people are utilizing. I was just seeing a sample of this EVE. He has been did a 12 hours marathon, which was absolutely good in terms of a mix of a live streaming as well as a proper content and there was good amount of traction which was actually built into the entire you're able to connect it obviously your economies on scale would also be taken care in terms of the entire system that you're trying to build it, but the larger piece which most of the marketers today are talking and since I am also representing those community today, performance marketing is going to the key for the next eight to 10 months. If I'm able to get the return, if I'm able to get that particular leads and if that's converts into my particular sale, whether it happens through a digital video, whether it happens through a digital plus an online lead management system that will actually defies because today any money that is actually spent has to calibrate into the sales, what you're actually trying to do. Otherwise, brand building exercise will definitely take a back step because this is not the time to actually build a brand. It's not trying to build a visibility for it is about building the performance for your particular organization that will actually make a huge difference. What if what if I oppose the counter valid points? That's why it is that with we need but what if I were to give you a counterpoint which is as follows. We've had significant disruption because of COVID sales have been impacted companies top lines have been impacted because of which marketing budgets have been cut because of which a lot of the money has gone as you're saying into performance marketing. There is very little to go around for brand building but come say September or October three or months from now. One assumption we all have to make is that we will be out of this in two to three months time out of the lockdown. I mean I do not know how long the vaccine or the cure will take but out of the lockdown which will allow a large amount of economic activity to resume. Now once we are in that condition won't a brand actually want which has been kind of in a silent period for a six I mean eventually you are running a business and you will also have to look at you know the next two to three years and not just keep looking at the next month or the next quarter. Won't a lot of brands which have been silent and only looking at who have been only looking at performance marketing want to say okay hey you know there is a big sporting property starting let me put my umbrella on that let me put my flag on that and own the big bank piece because as we all know sports is not just about you know performance marketing sports is about making that big big announcement making that big statement that hey my brand is well and active my brand is aspirational my brand is the one that you need to engage with and a lot of companies okay I'm investing in the next 18 months the past six months are gone but now I need to next invest in the next two years and let me put the money on a large sporting event. So now just to bring back and again a question for a question and bringing to your particular question which you asked previously with beneath this is in terms of yes definitely brands want to do it but what would be the magnitude that really want to invest today if I really compare an apple to apple comparison the investment that you used to do it a year back on the same property the timing can be different the scale and the magnitude can be different do really brands ready today the answer keeping the hand to the heart no nobody will be ready to do that what product what does that actually brings to the answer is that every property that he comes up for a grab has to have be recalibrated and re economize to the strength that will brands in today's scenario able to afford it as you rightly said that this 100 will not be 70 and I said nobody knows today nobody can predict that 60 or 60 even from the same situation from the brand nobody knows whether even after September or October will I able to or anybody will able to achieve that particular numbers the answer is is absolutely in a very great area to look for if really the opportunity come it has to be a very very smart opportunity to look for and obviously it has to be economized to the sense that people are able the brands are able to afford and think about into the consideration set today and that will actually define whether it will actually be an impact driven decision or it will more people will try more of a technology will be relevant but won't be spending too much in the entire fray to be a launch or something to announcement value to bring it so these you as work with the brand large number of brands across categories which specifically sponsor your you know team jerseys and a lot of the other stuff are there any conversations you've had with these brands in the recent past which can tell us how what they're thinking also we have continuous conversation going you know not all of it is towards whether you want to stay back or not stay back and and as you know and I firmly believe as much as my partners who are working with us that you know that IPA is one of the best platform to be in and you know not necessarily answering to this question of yours but taking from God Amit and Vinit were saying my take on this is I'm sorry I mean I mean that's not a question that you pose to me but all the same I'd like to add my two bit to it and saying that look I mean every brand has its own has its own time frame every category has its you know has its own space for example even in a in a dull market there are brands which need presence in some form or the other or or increased voice you know share of voice for example I in my opinion we're constantly tracking the market and we know for a fact that there are brands which have brands and categories which are going to do very well in the coming months I mean they will write out the COVID pandemic and will definitely come on top of it give us examples not brands maybe categories no why not brands even brands I'm saying that you know that there are brands which are FMCG specific brands which have which have been doing very well and probably you will see a lot of ship for all along you know on sponsorship you didn't have all for that matter even when it comes to sponsorship on broadcast you've had you know not so much FMCG brands taking up you know sponsorships but you may see that happen because because they have a lot to compete for in that market so definitely they'll probably push more money into it so there's there's no yes and no to this and you know one has to it's a process of discovery in many ways none of us I don't think we can look down and say yes this is how it's going to get this is not a it's going to be a very very different market as Ahmed said earlier it's going to be going to innovate we'll have to think of you know different ways of being able to attract the consumer go into the market I see no worry about not just about I tell about any sport in the in the future I mean if anything sport because you know sport in many ways as I call it you know it's a it's anyway gives you an identity as I call it you know so everyone wants to be associated with some sport or the other so to that extent you know I don't see so at the other day the brand is going to chase that cost consumer or the customer so there's no you know that I see a downward trend when it comes to there will be some highs and lows there's always some rough but we'll write it out and I keep repeat at the cost of repeating I'll say that this is all temporary phase and in our country especially I think it won't take that long for us to bounce back so when you tell me does uh do you foresee a shift uh at least in the medium term or say the short term not even the medium term from high ticket investment price opportunities to slightly medium or smaller ticket items so in sporting parlance uh rather than the big bang sponsorship opportunities that put cost upwards of 50 crores clients or a larger number of clients choosing the smaller ticket items of say 10-15 crores do you foresee that happening at least for the next few quarters so uh so what I what I personally think uh going forward and because we've been put into a spot like this I think every brand is going to be thinking about how his entire spend is going to be giving him exponential returns okay so I think the entire measurement metric is going to be pushed uh uh upwards and and challenged actually so to me it's about how are you going to be packaging multiple different uh platforms multiple different uh intact elements which will make a business case for advertisers rather than a brand building case so I mean on one point I agree with Amit that I don't think brand building is the right time at this stage but it's about how am I going to be solving a business problem and the reason for my optimism novel here is there going to be a lot of problems that a lot of brands and categories are going to be facing now if sports can bridge that gap and solve that problem for them I don't think anybody is going to be shying away from that or whether it's through performance marketing whether it's through on-ground investments or whether it's through a combination of multiple layers around a marketing plan I think as long as I'm able to solve a business problem for an advertiser they will be more uh ready to listen to a plan like this and and another point in favor of India as a country is once things start looking up and again I'm we are assuming things will look up uh in post august maybe in September October it's going to be a festive season this time Diwali is going to be in second week of November okay so the entire thing has to come alive and and I completely agree with most of you guys that this is a temporary phase and I don't think we are in this lockdown stage forever and there has to be some kind of an optimism and positivity across borders not only in from an agency standpoint or a brand standpoint but at a right holders place I mean someone like a Jatin who would possibly speak to multiple different arenas there has to be some kind of upliftment for everybody right and that's that's that's what I believe I mean it's going to be more of an ROI driven business problem solving driven approach rather than just about saliency or a brand-building driven approach with the multiple pieces yeah Jatin what are the action points you said you know we need three four stakeholders to come together and work together to uh uh you know work at the grassroots level so what would be the four five action points that you would put down for them uh I don't know about four or five but I can certainly cite a couple I think if I if I put my if I put myself in the shoes of a custodian uh a sports federation for example I would use this time to uh to ensure that uh certification uh training programs uh all of that piece is covered with my supply side you know I will I will I will try and I will try and raise the standard of my supply side at the same time I will you know I will look at technology to uh to to manage uh you know my entire operations more efficiently uh so I think that's one piece which is important uh the second piece which I feel which is going to come out of all this is the uh is is a complete kind of alignment on the fact that technology is going to be a part of your coaching portfolio you know so so if if you were conducting a cricket academy for five days a week I think the physical part of it is going to be the offline part is maybe going to be two days a week and the rest of the three days are going to be supplemented by some kind of digital interface and technology uh there's also another piece to to the back end so if you look if you if you look at the entire world uh through through a venue owners perspective say I own a an astroturf facility with eight pitches on it I will try to use a platform like hello more com to come in and help me uh you know uh help more people discover that I'm present here but also use marketing automation at the back end to retain my earlier consumers and to keep them coming back to my platform so so I think if you if you look at it from a demand and supply side one the two truths which are going to come out of this is the leverage of technology platforms and the leverage of digital overall tell me Jatin since uh you know you're talking let me ask you another question which is very different from the since especially since you've been a player yourself I was reading a very interesting piece uh on new york times last month which is which was talking about high performance athletes who are competing in olympics a lot of them especially gymnasts they have a very short window yeah you know unlike say cricket where your careers can span uh 10 maybe 15 years in some cases uh longer yeah individual sports allows you to have you know uh not very long careers especially you know gymnasts for example who would typically in their entire careers participate only in a single olympics yeah uh even you know you look at badminton players their careers don't last at at least the peak level for 10 years you know five six year window is the optimal for them when they are at a high now when you lose almost you know six seven months which is which you can say one entire season it's almost losing 15 10 15 percent of your peak performance yeah of your life yeah how does a player deal with that you know you you've been an india player yourself what do you do i there's no playbook for this you've not been in this position but it is an extremely tough situation to be in so so I think uh you know when you're an elite athlete you you ensure that you never lose anything given any circumstance you know so uh if you're an elite athlete you're a hundred percent carrying some niggle or an injury or some strain with you and and this this period can come as a boon for you essentially you know so where for example if you had to remain on the field but now you don't need to remain on the field you don't need to go under the knife you know just rest will will kind of take care of that uh entire rehab piece for you the the second is that uh all the athletes all elite athletes are going to come back fitter than ever before you know because they have the time and and the space uh to to work on to work on their entire fitness the downside is that well there is a difference between fit to play and fit to perform you know so fit to play is fit to play but these guys are high performance athletes you know so the window the windows need to be built properly you can't do with a two or three week window and say okay fine you know i'm uh king's 11 uh you know satish cannot tell them that i'm going to get you a two week camp and you go to jump into the ip l no it doesn't work that way uh there there is an entire kind of duration which you need to work through but but yes i i understand your point that there will be some unfortunate incident so if if for example if i was 37 years old and tokyo was my last chance uh you know at an olympic gold that that potentially has gone uh 12 months later down the road uh but but support systems uh and and and trainers and strength and conditioning coaches and your advisors and your mental health professionals they all tackle this this piece so there is no wastage anywhere an athlete never looks at anything wasted they just they just see it as more time to prepare for what they want to achieve right satish i read something interesting and i want to pick you up on that in 2006 when the last covid uh or the earlier of tariff covid starts to hit we building took out an insurance policy against such you know events happening in the future by virtue of which today though this year there will be no building but the financial loss to them will be negligible a very very little right i said they were just lucky because they've been paying a huge premium if this had to continue and there was no covid they would have been down by you at the point of insurance anyway right i mean you you pay for you know one in a hundred or one in a million event and it happened uh has there been any conversation in ip l team owner rooms about taking out an insurance policy on these lines no so force measure is something that we've been we've been looking at uh unfortunately covid was not uh uh you know covid hadn't become larger than life at that point in time although we did try to uh include that in our our our insurance uh uh you know the deal that we are doing but no to be honest there is no there is nothing as yet there is there is some conversation that we are having with our insurance companies i have my doubts because not now going forward also i doubt whether covid will ever become you know will become i'm in a pandemic of that size will drive insurance companies out of business that's right yeah and i keep saying this especially for teams like us which you've uh which for us people like us who travel travel is going to be a big issue because i don't know how many insurance companies will will include covid in that if i make a trip to uk and back so i don't don't have an answer to that veneet you have a view on this yeah it's a great learning novel uh and it all actually surprised all of us and the kind of social media traction uh it the entire wimbledon uh and its cancellation and the and the insurance policy got itself is a testimony it surprised everybody across the world and not only in india it's a great learning uh and i mean we'll have to we'll have to see it's a conversation between the insurance company and various different stakeholders and currently whatever i'm in hearing is exactly what saty said it's more about the force major and the implication of that uh but again the question is did anybody you know think that uh a pandemic of this size and scale which actually put the world to a standstill would even think about i mean it's a wimbledon sorry to interject but wimbledon is really an outlier i mean yeah at it you know i mean it's just that covid happened and they happened to and they just turned lucky well they took out the policy a few years back so it didn't happen last year but in six onwards my friend that's right yes that's a long way yeah it's a huge premium to pay see from a look from a wimbledon's point of view they will say they had the vision and and the and the and the and and had the approach to think about uh extreme cases like these i mean that's going to be from their point of view and and the rest of the world is going to be taken as learning it's always a two-way situation isn't it okay let me hop on to some audience question uh there's a question for mr menon from ks narahari mr menon if ipl happens in september or october without live audience will you redo reduce the payments committed to players and the support staff no i doubt it okay that's as direct as it can get another question from uh raga nakpal my question is from a brand point of view do you think the price of acquiring some rights would be considerably cheaper than before and would this present to you with the opportunity to invest more as cost of leveraging rights would be less due to activation going digital i think is that addressed to me amit actually see from a brand because any cost that'll actually have a new cost there has to be a new ways to look for it and there won't be any baggage for what it used to pay before and that you have to start from whatever it needs to look for if the engagement levels in the interactions level and if the interest level are taken care definitely branch and look for it but to answer that definitely the price has to have a very very different role to play not at least what it used to be before uh beneath you have anything to add to that see look that that two ways to look at this question one is from a from a media rights point of view and one is from a investment that comes from an advertiser point of view in both the cases now i think as i said earlier uh the rupee will have to work quite harder than before at least for the next couple of years 2020 and i would input 2021 also right so therefore there's going to be a lot of closed-door conversations in terms of how do i add value to the entire piece and how can i help you build your business rather than how do i reduce cost structures it's not about the cost we are all here to do business as long as i'm building or putting a business case in front money has never been a problem so it's going to be more of a closed door conversations about how can i help you better your business in the next one and a half year rather than how do i reduce the price right let me also look at now uh what are the opportunities that you know come out of covet for us for the sporting ecosystem obviously it provides us with an opportunity to uh deeply integrate technology into you know the the entire sporting space like jatin said you know coaching part of coaching can go online fan engagement can go online if there are no fans in the stadium it gives you an opportunity i was reading an article on indian express three days back where a company which developed some arbr technology for the basketball league is also planning something similar for you know um indian sporting leagues where an ocular kind of system when one on the head can provide you a much deeper experience of being in a stadium as opposed to just watching linear tv what are the other things for example from a brand point of view veneeth if i were to ask you what are the opportunities that brands can see in this in terms of engaging their audience their fans better see look now there is no no debate that you can't take away the the joy of watching any sport live in the stadium okay so that's that's the first point i mean you just can't look at it from that point of view i think i think from a i mean i've also been reading about technology a lot and the impact and the leverage that you can have on that see my only point on technology is that remember technology has to be simple okay it can't be complicated from a production standpoint it can't be complicated from an audience standpoint so it has to be it has to it has to match with the expectation of the players the coaches and it has to deliver a much enhanced consumer expectation right so from that standpoint it has to be reassuring to the fans about how the personal data of fans can be protected how the identity of how can we identify the needs and expectation of fans and users before deploying any technology so a lot of homework needs to be done before you actually deploy your technology okay otherwise otherwise you can just build certain things and it can just go south uh and we don't have some great india examples on on building technologies so i mean i again say we have got three months before we get into any conversations i think we should use this time to test a lot of these things offline uh and i'm sure i mean as as most of the advertisers are are going the digital way in this i mean technology will be one very very important aspect of advertisers wanting to engage with their consumers should take and it's already happening today how is sport going to be leveraging that is the question one needs to ask and and it has to be a combination of multiple trial and error things at this point and i'm sure someone like satish can build on this because i'm sure they must be thinking about lots that they can do when and if ideal happens this year and without fans in mohali so i mean maybe satish you can take this from your preparedness but i think there's going to be a lot of trial and error that needs to happen between between multiple people at this point in time there's another question for satish which is with no ground activations no gate revenues no merchandise and no fnb revenue and no free passes how would team owners look to diversify their revenue streams diversify yes where more where else can you bring revenue from of course you're getting money from the central kitty the sponsorship money anything else that you guys are looking at doing no digital is the only space and as as when he was saying you know we we're looking at various methods of slicing and dicing our fans at this present moment how much of it will end up with you know with the honoring revenues or not we are not so sure we are in that experimentation mode but a lot of time and energy is being spent on that but to answer the gentleman's question no there are only about the four or five sets of revenue streams i mean three of the most prominent ones of course we all know of but thankfully in this country you know sponsorships and and broadcast you know share that comes to us is substantial so it's not as if you know that that you know that it'll completely kill us if you know if the ticketing doesn't happen in one year we'd like to see the we'd like to see we'd like to to get to engage the the fans we'd like for this for for the tv audiences to watch they've been deprived of any form of live sports we'd love for them to get back and watch some good games there will be some compromises we'll make that compromise this year so we are out of time so before we log off one last final question to all of you we've had sport in india being run in a certain manner in the last you know 15 20 years if you were to rewind back i mean covid is in a way a lot of ways reboot reset so to say if you were to rewind and look at all of these years what were one or two things that you would you know want to do differently if you were doing it again we need why don't we start with you the difference differently in terms of what double the way the sporting business has been run from a sponsorship point of view from a you know economic management point of view uh how how would you do things differently now if you were to do it again or what is the change you would like to see in the sporting economy let me put it differently okay so uh i mean as uh some i mean i have the previous i just take the previous question and answer this one so i would like to see couple of more revenue model that would be built into the entire ecosystem okay and we have got tremendous amount of learnings uh from the global sporting ecosystem i mean if you look at the the european sporting ecosystem or if you look at the north american sporting ecosystem there are not of avenues other than the three obvious avenues that we all speak about so i would think about how can i build multiple revenue models on the back of digital and tech okay so that's some that's an experimentation i would love to see and love to be a part of from this uh country's economic standpoint i would definitely look at more roi driven uh and a very very roi driven approach to the entire sponsorship and the media rights ecosystem currently in india when we spoke about roi we only looked at measured value okay i would look at i would love to see how we are pushing the envelope and look at it from a perceived value point of view because then that helps advertisers build better roi so not also roi not only driven by media and television but how can i possibly go to the boardrooms and say that this sponsorship or this particular initiative of mine have actually helped me build a lot of value which is intangibles okay so when i say perceived value i actually compare it with intangible because what is tangible is the media value right so i would like to see more of these uh detailed uh analytics that comes into play and defines a very sharper role for an advertiser to spend their money so these are the two things one is the the multiple revenue models on the back of digital and second is a very strong roi driven data driven exercises that will possibly answer the unanswered questions of intangibles for two things now fantastic amit from an advertiser point of view what are the what are the things you'd like to see differently i think first and foremost is uh the well uh and most of the advertisers including me uh i would say we were always swayed away by going in terms of the impact of the property one thing which has actually turned from this particular thing more than impact which has to be what would be the interaction level of the activity irrespective it may not be the number one activity number of sports to be done in that particular country and all i think that will bring a lot of science in terms of what should be the affinited audiences that you really want to go for what should be the affinited reach that you want to go for rather than just going for an impact on the halo effect of any property to look for second thing what should be the affordability today because that will be a question asked again and again for next two or three years what would be the affordability metrics that you want to do and what would be objective that you're trying to drive from each and every object each and every money that you're actually trying to spend it may not be a long-term commitment definitely going forward will not be a long-term commitment it will be tried and tested every property whether it is through technology whether it is to digital but idea is to what is the outcome that you're trying to drive which will make and it will make people a lot of cautious and going forward may not making a large commitment in terms of year or two year or three year deal but seeing every season and then moving ahead from that that's from my side now right Jatin let me come to you now I think just looking at it solely from the supply side education of of coaches and standardization of delivery I think these are the these are the two areas which should have been taken up it's not it's not late it can be done but I think delivery standardization of delivery and education of coaches thereby increasing the funnel on the supply side these are the two things I would like who can be the flag bearer for that the students of the sport the BCCI is the all India football federations in in in partnership with with the league team owners and what is the role the government can play in this any constructive role the government can play in this absolutely I mean India is the youngest country in the world a lot a lot of kids are playing sport across the ecosystem only 0.001 of them play for India the rest can be involved in sport in coaching and operations and the other piece so so so I think this is the time for sport to take a leap and try and be recognized and get an industry status I think a lot of funneling will happen just with that what moves from the government right Satish you got to get the last word so in so in some ways I would second what Vinit said but I would probably try and try and find doing that a little more to suit my needs I would say that you know unlike any other country abroad when for overseas we look at sporting property sponsorship is plays a very important role when I say sponsorship I'm talking about team sponsorship name of Norman pleasure and so on so forth I think there has to be a model where where you can wear the not in an intangible fashion but in a tangible way be able to wear the the the pros of of sponsorship and how the the the association rubs off on the brand in a manner in which it it benefits the brand there are some loose methods of doing it which some of us use in the marketplace but I wish there was a body which could which could mathematically work on this and you know help brands grow with the naming rights and on the picture of these going forward my only the only thing I would like to see happen in the future is that we can be allowed to build more on digital and therefore we have more access to content if I may use the term for want of anything better because content is going to be a huge part and as Amit said earlier engagement is key more than anything else reaches one part of it but engagement is becoming equally important and we carry these assets with us and those are the guys who make you stick to the game it's the sport and for us to have access and engagement to these assets that we carry you know if we are allowed more I'm not talking about live streaming or I'm not talking about live game but beyond that if we are given an opportunity to be able to use this to the benefit of our sponsors it will help us a lot fantastic well thank you for a fantastic conversation to all of you I think for me the key takeaway is three four one sport is alive and kicking we are all desperately wanting for it to be back soon and it will be back soon fans and stadiums or fans at home the passion the engagement that sport generates is not going away anywhere yes there is an economic downturn likely to happen over the next few quarters having said that sport is one of the unifying ecosystems in a position to attract brand money to attract investments from brands than any other ecosystem most importantly sports in the larger economy and the psyche of the nation plays a very very important role I think the role that we a lot of us underestimate in fact there's a CII government report which was released at the CII sporting event last year in October which said India has an opportunity to create a 10 billion dollar sporting economy starting from the grass root level going all the way up to the top most level with the employment generation direct employment generation opportunity for 10 million people so I think the government also sees this as a very serious ecosystem which can which is not just Kail Kood you know so to say which can be tackled with later but which should be dealt on priority immediately as part of their plan to get the economy started with that positive note let me thank all of you Satish thank you thank you Vinit Jatin Amit for taking your time out and I hope the Kail Kood starts very soon and we are back at least onto our TV screens glued on till the next time thank you everybody for joining us goodbye from all of us hey thank you all of you guys thanks yeah that was really thank you very much thanks thanks