 Getting to order at 6.40, first order business is public comment. Nathan? Hi, guys. Thanks for serving. Quick concern is that my daughter's putting Phil Hockey, and it can be the initial information session, which was held here in the library, and there was a couple from Roxbury who were concerned about their daughter being able to participate because practice is at 4.30 to 6. My auntie's fan leaves at 5.10 from the middle school, so I just want to make sure that's on people's radar, and I suspect it's one of those unanticipated inclusion issues, but it'd be a shame if the one or two kids don't want to participate in sports. It'll be it. See, that microphone doesn't do anything for us. It does it for there. Yeah, it does it for there. So the concern is, so Phil Hockey practices 4.30 to 6 every day after school from middle school. The activities bus going back to Roxbury leaves the middle school at 5.10. So if a student wants to participate in Phil Hockey at the rec fields and make it back in time for the 5.10 bus, they're going to get 20 minutes of practice. That may be only one student, but anyway, it's just one of those sort of curve balls that may or may not have been anticipated in the thinking about how this all comes together, but I'm hoping that folks can respond to that and make sure that we're including all Roxbury kids in all activities and getting home. Thank you. Perfect. Thanks, Ethan. And I know that Pam is working to make sure that, as I said, Pam is definitely working to make sure we accommodate Roxbury. So as many of you know, unfortunately, Peter Stirling has stepped down from the board and we want to thank Peter for his, I think, three plus years of great service on the board. It was, I think, a time of a lot of accomplishments and he played a large role both up here and working in committees and behind the scenes to make a lot of great things happen. So we thank Peter, but it also means that we have to replace Peter. There will be some, I think there is a notice on the website already, and I'll send some reminders by social media, but the protocol for replacing a vacancy on the board is that the board replaces that vacant position until the next week. I mean, it was a leftover and what do you think? No, it's a new thing, in particular to us. It doesn't mean that there are some people in the past sort of illegitimately on the board. Did you say confer or confer? Confer. The word in the statute is confer. It's unclear what exactly that means. We feel if we get a vote on it, that's about as much confer in as the city council can do. Got it. Okay, so then just to clarify for the audience, so we'll be advertising on the website and this meeting, will it be any of the papers, will the vacancy be posted anywhere else? We're not planning to put in the papers. We will push out on social media. The bridge did ask me about it. Yeah. And I did. Front porch forum? We can put on front porch forum too. And I believe Steve Mills has already explained the process in an article. He at least asked me about it. So there, but I want to be clear because I'm imagining it in the reverse situation where let's say a Roxbury member needed to be replaced and there's a predominance of not clear votes on this board. So I understand the need for the select board of Roxbury to confer. But in a case as if it were that or in this case, what is it fair game for? It's a strict vote. That means the Roxbury representatives in this case will have their votes on who replaces this person even though it's a Montpelier person. And in the other situation, the Montpelier members of the board would have the majority vote in selecting the Roxbury person to fill. And that makes sense why the select board would have to be happy with that. So I think I'm understanding this, but it's new. Yeah, it's new. I think that's probably what the legislature had in mind when it put that in, where if there was a town like Roxbury that's voted on the board and they wanted, say the Montpelier people wanted someone who was maybe from Roxbury, but didn't necessarily represent Roxbury the way Roxbury wanted to be represented, then Roxbury could put up right now. But for this case, Roxbury members of the board should feel confident in participating. Yeah. It says all nine members will vote on, well, except me unless there's a time, will vote on an appointment. And Peter, who doesn't belong. Eight members. And Peter, who's no longer on the board, is officially doing something else this Wednesday. And then I think, is there any further questions on that? Please ask a clarifying question. Heather's not in the audience. Is anybody taking notes this evening? I told her, because we were going into the executive session so far, she's going to watch this part of the meeting on tape, which she does anyway. Okay. She's going to take the notes. That's good. She's going to be kind to an employee who's worked all day long. But she'll be here after the executive session. Any other comments on replacing Peter C? And then next item before we go into executive session, I know Heather is patiently waiting. The consent agenda. Do we have a motion to approve the consent agenda? I think we approve the consent agenda. You have a second? Including me. I'll second. Okay. Any discussion? I was in favor. All right. Opposed? Great. All right. Now we need a motion to go into executive session, but I think the person needs a motion that we... The purpose is for advice from our legal counsel. Exactly. So we're going to... No, we need two motions for that. You're going to just go straight into executive? We just have to move to go into that process. Okay. It's not the one that needs to find it. Do you have a motion to go into executive session? I'll move to go into executive session. Second? Second. In favor? Aye. Any opposed? We're back. I'm here to hear the SBAC results presentation from... Did you have that properly mic'd? Of course. Yes. Thanks for having me. What I have prepared here is just an overview of our SBAC results. An explanation of how we're going to use those results to our benefit. And I'll be able to answer any questions you might have. Okay. So on the first slide, this is generally how we did in 2017-18. I have a scale over here on the side. This is the percentage of students that got a one, a two, a three, and a four. Blue is your DLA, and red is your math. So we had about 64% of our students, proficient or higher in DLA, and 47% in math. And I'm going to dig deeper into those, but those are the results that go on the paper. That's kind of what everyone speaks of. And when we talk about SBAC, one of the things that you don't hear a lot about are claims and targets. And claims are generally these broad statements of categories like writing or reading that they talk about in SBAC. And when you dig down a layer deeper, there are these things called targets, which are essentially the skills or evidence that we want students to show that they're reaching these common core standards. So when we look at our results, we're able to dig down and see those results actually quite a great interface with the SBAC assessment to show us what's going on. And for example, in 2017-2018 in DLA, the claim of writing was our lowest area, which is the place where we need to look at. This is the state comparison. So this is us in the blue. This is the state average. These are preliminary results. So you may see some shifting eventually, but that's what's on there now. You can see we're above the state average in all grades. So in DLA, when we looked at claims as in writing, we dug deeper into the targets, and these are the things that we were doing really well. For example, there were more, and then I could fit on a slide, but this is an example of written information yet. So at target 10, word meaning, and it's kind of interesting because a lot of people assume that we're not doing a lot of vocabulary work and we're doing okay in that. Grade 3 target 11, reasoning and evidence, we're also very strong in that, but it also shows us what we need to focus on. So at target 7, language use, interpretant use, language by distinguishing literal and non-literal forms, that's an area where we can focus in a little bit more. And the same with writing, great appropriate grammar and usage things like that. And that's strong to us at each grade level so we can really dig deep and see what's going on. These are some more of those target areas by grade level, just some examples. This is in all of them, but in grade 3, here's some areas that we might want to look at, grade 4, grade 5, all the way down to 9. This really helps us hone in our professional learning that we're talking about in good discussions and also helps us look at our local assessment data and understand what we can align and look at. Here's our math scores, same setup as before. So the blue is us and the red is the state. We were below the state average in two grade levels, grade 3 and grade 9. A couple of things to note, I talked about this on the next slide as well. This is the first year that we've given it to grade 9. It was grade 11 in previous years. And also we have an influx of students to the high school in grade 9 that haven't been in our system. And the area where we were need to focus most according to this information with concepts and procedures. I'll dig a little deeper into that on the next slide. Just a quick clarifying question. Is that the current grade 3 and grade 9 or is that grade 3 and grade 9 last year? Last year. So it's current grade 4 and grade 10? Yes. Yeah, the timing and the results is always kind of funky. That's what I thought, but it's one of the things you want. So the math targets, when we dug a layer deeper below those claims, one of our strengths was solving real-world mathematical problems. This was in grade 6. This is my example in grade 6. And in grade 6, one of the areas that we could focus in on was applying and extending previous understanding to number systems. And we have those examples for every grade level. I didn't put them all here, but we are able to get information about what we're seeing that helps really guide our discussions. And clearly, when we have any grade levels, but in math, these were our lowest areas, we're in math, so we want to look at that a little deeper. Is there performance over time? Can I? Yeah, absolutely. You're changing the scale on these. We're starting in the 40s on the ELA and starting at zero on the math. I'm just getting confused by how we're doing it relatively. So yeah, I'm sorry. This sets it to a fifth, basically, essentially, so it goes to the levels to whatever it is. These percentages are the percentage's proficient or higher. Right. But if we look at like a 46 versus a 52 in math, and then we look at, I don't know what it is in ELA, but you know, see how you're starting at zeros? Yeah. So it looks like we're pretty close. Yeah. And when you go to the other scale, it looks like we're gapingly ahead, or whatever, you know? You're right. I'm just like, wait a minute, we can't be that different than the average, but we're really not if you use a different scale. I'm just being, I'm like, it just looked weird, and now I'm like, okay, it's not that different. Okay, okay. Well, the other thing about this scale is the assumption when you look at it, first off, is that 100% is at the top and that is not true. Right. You're only at 60%. Oh, right, another point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So again, we were below grade 339. These are the targets that we're going to look at. Some of the targets that we're looking at. Yeah. Can I have a back-up question? Sure. I just don't understand. Why, if you're testing in 11th grade, you're compared to other 11th graders, and we're now testing at 9th, and we're comparing to other 9th graders, why the difference? Why the drop? Might as well change it. Yeah. Well, not to function. Why did they move it from 11 to 9? I understand you headed at 9. Sure. You know more what it is you need to address. I concur with that. But then why are, if we're just so well compared to other 11th graders, why aren't we doing so well as compared to other 9th graders? Yeah, so there's a bit of, I get to that later. I'm going to talk about what we're going to do with this information. Okay. A little bit, but remind me if I don't answer your question. Okay, all right. So this is our performance over time. I'm not sure we assessed 9th graders, but our general trend and achievement has been since 2015. And then we started to look at the subgroups. So we started to look really at those economic disadvantages. That's the term that the state uses, economically disadvantaged students. They represent 21% of our total assessed population. 12% of our economically disadvantaged students are on an IEP, and 94% of those students did not achieve proficient. So it's definitely an area where we want to look. The red represents below the standard. So 52% of our economically disadvantaged students were below the standard in ELA, and this will worry for me there about 66%, below the standard in that. Wait a minute. This is 94%. Oh, IEP. Yeah. Don't remind me. Thank you. So this is the what next part. So one of the things that we didn't have time to do yet was really dig into those cohorts to answer that question. You know, why are we doing Soella 11th grade and 9th grade most different? Part of it is I think it doesn't, it shows the growth in high school. The other part is Mike, the grade that I found out, we had 34 students move into our school in 9th grade last year that weren't in our school system. They were in private schools or homeschooling or of course some other alternative situation. That's not pointing a finger, but it's a contributing factor in the DAP. So from 8th grade to 9th grade, we had a bump of 34 students that we had in excess the year prior. Well, the other thing is they did not have advantage of the curriculum presented in our school system. Yeah, that's it. Assuming that was good. Yeah. We have to look at the scale score analysis. So one of the things that you're going to hear from us in an ESSA, when we get our report card eventually from ESSA, is that they'll be looking at scale scores. And essentially scale scores will show year to year. A student could get it to in 3rd grade and in 2nd and 4th grade. And that doesn't show the growth. But when we look at the scale score, we can see how far students actually grow year to year. Individual students. Yeah, and cohorts and team members. Yeah, right. And that's something that's often missed when we just report out on 3s and 4s. So that's another layer that we're going to go into. IAB administration analysis. So there are these essentially questions and tasks that you can unpack for students that are really good. It's not teaching to the test. It's not preparing for the test any of that stuff. They're just really thoughtful problem-solving things to work through with kids. And we can gain a lot of information about kids how kids learn, how our instruction's going through using those. So we're going to look at those this year. And then more claims and target analysis, really digging in at a deeper level, looking at cohorts, looking at kids. We're a small enough school system that we can really identify these students and figure out what we need to do. So that's the next layer. The second week in September we're going to get to it. But we're really working on it. And then there's some additional slides and charts. I didn't want to leave Roxbury out. You can know our results from previous years. I'm going to include them. These are their results for grade three and grade four. We're still going to do some stuff with the state trying to get access to the results and be able to access their information. So this is the best I could do for the moment. But you can see definitely some of the same math concerns. So that aligns with the work that we're doing nicely in terms of the commentary schools. And then these lovely charts are a breakdown of each grade and each achievement level so that you can look at them and kind of pick it apart. You can get really lost in the data. It's really fun. I think Libby and I can geek out for a couple of hours if we don't look up. These bars should be represented like as stacks or pies probably to give us a better sense because they all add up to a hundred, right? Each set of bars adds to a hundred. One of the things that charts like this tell me or jump out of me right away is that we have a roller coaster going on. It's not the same. So typically when I see roller coasters like that I start to ask questions like our scores on this particular assessment are based on the cohort of kid not on the teaching, right? So essentially if our teaching was right where the same in every grade level matched to the targets that we want them to get to you would see consistency. You would see this. But when it's like this it's based on the cohort of kid. So what I question impacts them. So we want to we want to look at that trend data over the last couple of years and see if that's the same as the grade seven cohort that was so strong. Were they strong in sixth grade in fifth grade? Is that a strong cohort of kid? And why isn't the grade six cohort that had such good scores you know like what's going on there when I see roller coaster scores that those types of questions I ask. And we're at the question asking state right now. I don't know the answers to anything. Thank you for asking the questions. And those last two are consistent. The top line is 50 percent. Yes. Good work. I noticed on the on the slide that shows the trend line going down. It also shows the trend line going down to the state as a whole. And I just wanted to know no. No. That's the L.A. and math. Yeah. Okay. So we're not so the trend line for the state is not down. I'd have to look. Okay. I think the most part is static. I'm not sure. Okay. All right. Thanks. It's a it's a job. I don't want to give more to go. No. Okay. Well, so the other piece of this as a parent, I am faced with this, you know, testing question every year. You know, the option, you know, do you exercise your opt out kind of thing. And as a school board member, I might know where I opt out. We're going to contribute data, right? And it's good for our students to learn how to take tests and all that other stuff. But there's also a group of folks who feel like, let's just do this little testing as possible for our kids. We're going to have a lot of participation percentages. Yeah. And does and are we seeing differences by cohorts there? And is that influencing our scores by cohort in terms of who's opting out? So, I have several answers ish to that question. Number one, so what I'm looking at with this data right now is just raw spreadsheets. Absolutely. So, and on there, it doesn't say who opted out. So I'm not particularly sure that there were several exempt several things. It means just to either start a discussion and didn't finish or it didn't take the session. And I'm not sure there were several of those and we get a zero for each one of those. We get a zero. We get a zero. To be graded as a zero. Yeah. Just leaving it out. If they begin, but don't finish. If they begin, but don't finish. You have the option of coming back to finish. But I understand that's important in us back. But if they choose not to participate, it's not a zero. Yeah. Any child in our district who in these cohorts that chooses not to opt, we get a zero averaged in. Correct. Yes. So it's Well, that's interesting. There are other major comments. There are. Yeah. I mean, there was schools went into like panic mode when people started talking about that because they can pull our funding. They can pull funding from us because of that. Whose name? AOE. AOE. So, that's one of the differences to that action. But at the same time, this is an assessment. It's not the only assessment we look at. It's a big assessment to show not necessarily individual scores and what we can do with individual kids, but does our program match the rigor of the standards that are out there? That's the that's the major overall question that we're asking. And are we continually to increase our ability to meet that rigor? So the chart like this, you know, as a first timer to this district with Mike and I, that's a worrisome chart. You know, we need to flip that around. And so, it's an assessment that for programmatic measures is important to us as a district. And as a board member, I think that would be a message that I'd want you to tell public. The other thing about this is if you do no assessments, you, everybody might seem happier, but you have no idea then how everybody's doing. So for the parents they say, I don't want so many assessments. I don't want a lot of them, but you have to have enough to determine whether your child is getting the information you're presenting. Well, and I think there's a perception out there that not only it's testing the complete assessment or perhaps the best assessment, but I think it was a fear that the teacher started teaching differently because of the assessment. And I think communicating that that's not the case. But we want them to, right? Well, I mean, it sounds like we do. Actually, I think we want to do well on the test, but we don't want them to teach to the test. I think we do. That is a horrible test. No, it's a good one. No, it's a good test. The SPAC is a pretty decent assessment. Believe me, I would be the first to tell you if I thought it was garbage. And we could say we want our children to know the questions, the answers to the questions that are around the test, right? Yeah, I would say the targets. So to ask this question, I mean, in a more focused way, do you, I'm taking it from what you're saying, that there's information in the data that would lead to interventions in the teaching process. For the individual. Yeah, it's the knowledge. I mean, looking at this just off, like our math scores were considerably lower. So what's happening in our math instruction? What kind of learning do we need to provide for our teachers in order to increase their capacity, to increase their ability to understand conceptual and math, you know. But are you asking about individual interventions with students? No, it's district. It's district. We don't use the data to help the individual students. So the individual has no incentive? Not, well, think about it. When we get this assessment scores to the level that we need to interview this. It's truly, yeah. It's not soon enough. It's more programmatic measures that we're looking at. Right. Yeah. I think that's part of the issue here is to see it as right. This is part of being a good citizen in a community. Really, a lot of this is. And I mean, there is a benefit to the individual and that students do need to practice taking tests. It's a sad fact of life. But it's true. And so, but it is a community contribution to data is really what we're doing. It's not helping your individual student at that moment or in that school year and hopefully it's it's having us understand what's going on with a continuation of curriculum and a continuation of that for over years. But I just, I'm not, I'm not saying test. We take tests. It's not that I'm just, I'm just answering questions that I hear regularly in the community about, look, our kids don't need to take tests. It's over-tested, you know. And, and ESPEC is the least of our concerns in many ways. But we have it's changing too or it's changed. That's great. Was that this year? Last year was the first pilot year. Of what? Science assessment. Okay. I don't even know what they're calling it. They're calling it the science assessment. That's fine. And we assume it's moving more towards the ESPEC kind of concepts or? It's more interactive. Interactive, at least. Okay. We've only seen it one time. Right. It's on the computer. It's ESPEC-like. Yeah. Got it. And we're part of consortium. Yeah. Essentially it looks similar to what I believe Connecticut and Rhode Island have used in a couple other states. I don't think that they've created anything new per se, but it's new to us from ECAP. The other thing I'd say about this is it does tell us cohorts, whether it's a grade cohort or a socioeconomic cohort, that where we have a problem and then individually we can figure out when you say it's not helping the individual student. I'm hoping that then there's a curriculum change, which actually does help that student in that cohort. The trend data is very important to us. It tells us a lot of information in multiple facets. What about the program and education? A program about teacher quality, about cohorts. I mean, there's so many different ways we can look at that data. I mean, we are really I can't speak for everyone, but we are very excited about the quality of data we're hearing here, and we're very thankful. And also the longitudinal data, the cohort data, that sort of thing has been something we've been wanting for a long time and we're really happy to hear that it's a priority for you. And as we break that down by subpopulations I think that's really important too to the extent it can be done and not be identifiable. We are very excited about that. So thank you for this and we do value data. Because I guess I want to leave that. Thank you for important. Thank you for doing it and keep looking at it. Don't you worry. We know. Mike says we geek out on it. We geek out on it. We do it. And the longitudinal. Are you going to be doing today? No, no data today. Well, the longitudinal piece is the part that we're, I think we're dying to kind of hear if that's productive or if it's fruitful for you as you get into the data. I know we have I just wanted to Nathan had wants to say something I'm resisting because I want to try to keep public comment to public comment. It's nice. Huh? Nice. Well, I want to be mindful that there are, you know, people who are not able to make it or participate do have the, but if it's an urgent question, go ahead otherwise. I think you're well, but, you know, we're kind of perfect. Um, great. Uh, policy readings. Um, I think we're moving around a pretty good book here. Uh, so we have five policies. Uh, do you think, all of, did all of them come out of the retreat? I think all of them did. Um, well, not to treat the all day all day mission. Um, mission, vision, budgeting, board, superintendent, relationship, uh, board expectations, uh, and superintendent expectations. Um, so let's go start from the top and, um, good for the, for the people that weren't at our all day work session. Um, the board came up with this, worked with it very hard to come up with this vision and began the idea of a mission. And I think where we are now is to decide, um, our superintendent had the suggestion that perhaps we have a district vision and that each school have their own mission. And so we did not have time to consider that. So before we spend any more time on the board mission, I think we need to talk about that. I mean, I have one. You want to split it and have a separate discussion of the vision from the mission from the vision. No, actually, I think we've decided on the vision. This one, and so that's, that's there. We've done it. Um, but now the question is what do we do about this mission? What's the board's pleasure on the mission? Yeah, I mean, one thing is, is it mutually exclusive? Can, can we have a district vision and a district mission and have each school also have their own particular mission? So one thing I noticed. You're looking at me. I'm not to decide this. This is a board decision to talk about that. I would just say, this is less about whether it's school by school. I actually like it if each school having one very much. But that's going to happen regardless. That's going to happen regardless. Um, I don't get having a vision and a mission is basically the same kind of thing. Like we, we basically were trying to write two different sentences that captured the spirit of what we were trying to accomplish in the district under two different labels. And so I think if we're going to have a mission, I don't, what they're called, I don't really, I don't really know what the right word is for. But if it's, I need a better understanding of what this is supposed to convey that's different than the vision. And if it's just going to be another sentence that says something very similar, I'm not, I'm not sure why we have had it twice. The vision is supposed to be, is it more about values? Is it more concrete? Is it more? Is it more direct? I don't know, but I just, I need a better understanding of what this is supposed to be. The vision is supposed to be the big picture and the mission is supposed to be how you're getting there. Yeah, well, is an outsider who was not part of that just very briefly, I'll say the mission adds only one thing, which is that it, that it focuses on the individual of the child with talents, passion and passions. Um, and I think that it's basically talking about, I mean, this is just a brief reading, it's basically saying that this is our, our method for getting to the vision effectively. These are the values we instill in getting to this vision, but it could easily be wrapped into a vision and be done with it. And the second half of this to provide an education that empowers our graduates to build a better future, if we're not talking about empowering the individual for some reason, it fits right into engaged citizens and lifelong learners. So I don't know that that's even necessary. But it's like, it looks a little bit redundant and it looks like it should all be combined into one. It's, that was not part of the history of that. Right. And it can, if I, if I, in one, in one sentence, it says, a vision statement outlines what a company wants to be in the future or a mission statement describes what a company wants to do now. Oh my goodness. Then it should all be a mission. Yeah. So. Yeah. And I personally lean towards though I do think we're going to have to be explicit about what we're calling it because the other policies that we have in front of us tonight refer back to whatever it is that's here. I serve them in all the policies. So we have to make a decision. We're going to have civil dimensions and district missions and like we need to make sure that we're explicit with what we're calling this. So our policies can refer back to this, but I think I would personally lean more towards the discussion right now. All right. Comments. So do we want to take an action to amend? Do you want to just take a big I want to ask a question then if you maybe even more helpful to the people who weren't there is if you cover up the mission and just look at the vision, is that good enough? Or is it missing something? You care about personalized learning and vision? That's what it's out of the same. I think it's real close maybe our schools cultivate a caring, creative and equitable community that ensures something that has it more forward-facing. Can I apologize? I was not there to clarify the statement. I'm going to try to proceed on with this. So to say I know it's hard and it was hard first then, but the question is I'm not sure we put in time today to have this long discussion about this, but we would know what we want to do next if we can make a decision on that. In other words if you think we'd just like one statement but knowing you're just going to have one this vision isn't quite it then we could decide on a process later that would get us there. So my thought reading the vision I don't like the all our schools are I think we should have it be aspirational because I'm not sure our schools right now I think we strive to be an equitable community I'm not sure we're there I think it should be more aspirational than declarative. Okay I'm going back to the question I'm going to call the question of whether you want two statements or one and then we could work on what the one is at a different time with a different protocol. It sounds like most people have one. I think most people have one vision and then the schools can do their own decisions. We could take either make a motion on that or a straw poll. I think a straw poll is enough because we're not adopting it. It's a first reading so yeah. So who wants to edit out the mission and just go the vision? I want one vision. I think I want one. Steve, are you abstaining? No, I'm totally on to one and I've got to read it. Okay, so we'll on another agenda of another time rework it together. But my question is are you calling it a vision? It's very important for the next four documents you're doing. Are you calling it a vision or are you calling it a mission? Becky, you were thinking a vision and have it be aspirational rather than whatever a mission is. A vision is what you want to be in the future. I think a vision is more level to have an aspirational statement. So we're calling it a vision and we'll get back to it and now you can go on to the other things. Okay, good. Thank you. Schedule a vision discussion on some aspirational point in the future. Budgeting, budget policy, comments, discussion on our sexual issues. Well, in bullet number one, could you change mission to vision? Yes. We will do that throughout. Who's in charge of the edits? Are you in? Huh? Are you in charge of the edits? I can be in charge of the edits. So, this has the procedure and present, the procedure and format part of the policy or will that be separate and procedure only? I think it's policy as a procedure. I think we, because it's so pertinent to us. Okay. I think the idea was to have it actually be part of the policy. You could actually call it a calendar, budget calendar, couldn't you, instead of a procedure? Budget procedures or budget process? Yeah, process. Which is kind of synonymous procedure, but... That's good. Before we get all the weight down into that section, the last statement in the opening section, the board will create in charge of finance committee to ensure oversight and accountability for the district's finances. I'm interested in potentially clarifying that it would be a standing committee versus an ad hoc. So, we should maybe say charge a stand-in. I think that would be a standing committee. That makes sense to me that would be clear. It should be. Yeah. Could we call that middle section the annual budget calendar and process? Sure. Yeah, we would do it. Yes. Next time. What were you calling it? Annual budget. Annual budget calendar and process. Which... Where is this budget? It's a calendar. I call it a schedule or a scheduling process. Thank you. Because calendars suggest that we've actually set dates. At least it doesn't my mind. Are we setting dates? Huh? So, will this be... We're setting rough dates. But... So, if we look in December... Okay. So, Jim, if you look in December, January, public hearing has set in budget calendar. Oh, right. Because they're really... Is that different than what we're doing right now? Because in September, we'll have to adopt the actual calendar of what's being done. So, maybe this is called a schedule and the thing coming up with very specifics is called a calendar. This is a calendar. Yeah. So, an annual budget schedule. Yeah. So, just because we don't have enough on our agenda, Brian and I were talking about on the way in that this standing finance committee for our new board needs a charge. I don't know that we have one. I don't think you'd have one either. I think when you give Peter's replacement, Brian and I are kind of informally trying to get a grasp of what all her committees are. Okay. And I know we also need to give you some help on negotiations. So, I think in the 19th and 3rd, we can probably do a committee red shuffle and give them all the needed charges. Okay. Other questions on the budget policy? Just an ending thing. The budget presentation format is found there twice once not involved. Oh, yeah. All right. And the capitalization is really uneven. Throughout the process. I know we've talked about this in some of our last meetings. In May, the multi-year plan will be presented by the superintendent. I know we have a CIP. There's a multiple-year plan here. This wasn't sure if we're referring to the most appropriate plan or document. Since we're saying it will be presented and we want to make sure that we actually make sense for this. For a budget. Right. Maybe I misremember it, but I thought we discussed making this somewhat big because it may... I think that was probably it may vary depending on the research. So we don't have to a future board couldn't say, well, there needs to be a separate plan. We'll see where we can say, well, that's the CIP. Plus our capital plan is why we're not making... We're not defining another one. As long as there are plans. You know how I love plans. The multi-year plan might be simpler than the CIP plan which is very hard for the average community member to catch up with. So it might be clear as pertains to the budget. I have a question and I was responsible for trying to draft this during the meeting so if it's wrong, it's my fault. But number two on the second page, when I was looking at it again for preparation today, I thought, we're going to emphasize cost efficiency measures. How much? We had said to take that out at the retreat. Well, you were at the retreat. I know, before the retreat. Yeah. We've talked about it long before the retreat. You're sure of that? Yeah. We've talked about it for six months. We did talk about taking that out. I think we're going to write a thing out. Sorry, it stayed in somehow. We had two sections of this. Well, I actually have three sections. We have the introductory section. We've got bullets. We have the schedule section where we just have months listed and then we've got the budget presentation format where we've got numbers. Numbers are right. It's walking. It's walking. Is that okay with folks? Do you want consistency or are we... So we could turn the last one into bullets pretty easily and then it would look similar. That's at least one thing. I don't know. The dates don't seem to let themselves to bullet, but we could at least hold the date or something. Yeah. We could professionalize it. When you're working on those capitals. Yeah. Other issues, comments, questions, et cetera, ooh, semi-colon missing on four and the presentation format. Yeah. The very opening questions, the district's annual budget will we need to insert be developed by the administration. Yeah. Okay. Hearing none, we'll move on to board superintendent relationship questions, comments, edits. Under subjects of board's evaluation of superintendent, six lying down change mission division. Searching by somebody. Yeah. The board must not direct the actions of district staff and must not formally evaluate any staff member. Other than superintendent. Right. Do we need to declare formally? Because you wouldn't informally evaluate anybody. We're not going to evaluate anybody, period. Correct? I mean, we're not going to, I mean, we could sit here and not write up a report, but we could say that we heard the seventh grade science teacher was doing that. It wouldn't be a formal evaluation, but it could be and the board shouldn't do that. The board shouldn't do that. Discuss. Like it just felt like formally, I don't know, I felt like maybe formally it was a little bit too restrictive in terms of like we don't evaluate in any manner. Right. It was just simply we don't evaluate. It does clarify. Well, say we have an instance like we just talked about in our training where we do have to review whether or not an employee abused their discretion. That technically could be a form of evaluation. We've evaluated in action. We haven't evaluated job performance, but we've evaluated an aspect of their performance in a certain context. But it's pretty narrowly defined. Yeah. And even in that case, then it is still the superintendent's position to do conduct the actual evaluation, taking that consideration as a participant. I think this also clarifies it for staff so that a principal cannot come for use an example cannot come to a board member to lobby on their own behalf knowing the performance evaluation is not enough, for example. It makes the line very clear. I don't I think it's a provision. Discipline and dismissal below that has a nice way of saying it except where required by law or whatever it says. In other words, never unless you are required to. Well, I was going to say you never evaluate. You do make sure the law is followed. So something would come before us as we just discussed if someone was breaking the law. It says involved the evaluating in that lower 1.3 Discipline and dismissal Yeah, legal obligations but it had to do with I think we're okay. I wonder if we have no choice but to do it as to us. Right. But I think someone could technically say that we were evaluating a job performance aspect of someone who's done it in this situation. You know, now that I see the language you're pointing out, I'm thinking that we're publishing different things. They're somewhat overlapping, but 1.2 They're unintentionally overlapping. Yeah, 1.2 is probably saying must not formally evaluate because that's what this section is about formal supervision. We supervise the superintendent. The superintendent supervises everyone else. Maybe the formal evaluations. And then this is, you know, addressing the discipline and dismissal purpose of the word formally. That's what I think. Makes sense. I'm not sure. I know that I didn't come up with the word formally. That either came from the policy governance language or from the VBA policy. So I'm just the VSBA policy. I'm just guessing that maybe it says formal because this section is about formal structures. I'm more wondering why the concept of evaluating is then restated lower. In other words, it's basically giving permission to evaluate employees in 1.3 discipline and dismissal. It's saying there are circumstances under which we will be evaluating employees. No. We may be participating in decisions or actions that involve evaluating. We're not conducting a formal evaluation which is a state. So leading versus participating in? Conducting a formal evaluation versus having some role to play in a process that involves. So formally evaluating is conducting? I'm not sure where you get the idea of conducting. Must not formally evaluate. I sort of read that as a board does not as an entity conduct the evaluation of employees. And that section is kind of setting up that whole supervisory structure. And participate in decisions and actions involving implies to me there's been evaluation and now the board is asked to participate in decisions and actions based on that. And that too rarely happens but there are some circumstances where it doesn't. I just think the idea of conducting versus something that's formal or not synonymous. That's what I'm concerned about. I like conducting I think that's appropriate and I don't know what the formal means. So I did receive just a notice from the public that they are not able to find so I just want to These policies? Yeah. They wouldn't be able to adopt them yet. Would the the packet be online for some people to review? They're red and How do we put the packets on line traditionally? I think it's possible because part of the purpose of the readings is to have the packet in. So Okay. Yeah. So anything in the packet that doesn't relate to personnel? Personnel could go online? There's a question mark after that. We do. This is still the very first reading. This is still discussion so there's several readings coming. So yes, there's nothing there's still plenty of time for the public to weigh in on all the drafts. But I think it is legitimate. Unless you're not sure what we're talking about. Let me check on that. Okay. So I would check on that though because it's the board's responsibility to make policy. What I'm questioning is that the public has voted you all in to create these policies. Yes. So that's what I'm quite so let me just check. Okay. And I would say it's a matter of it's just sort of like having a packet here. And we've talked for two hours about something you have no documents on. It's not very much fun. And so that would be the same thing. If you're home and listening to us online it would be nice to know what we're talking about. But if that's the case then everything ought to have a draft on it. Because if I go to the site and see this policy I might get myself all in a twit about something that's as you just said are three drafts away. And I've had community members tell me before in the six so you as a board member well in Roxbury were policy governance you manage by the board you don't tell the superintendent to do this. You have policy that directs. Will you please write a policy that includes language that would accomplish this. So I think people are interested in having us as a conduit to policy. Well I mean my thought is I absolutely agree that we make the policy and we said the public comment is to do that but yeah part of the reason of having the various readings discussions and having public comment is if it's public. Read the policy we're considering but has not adopted and has concerns or questions they want to bring to the attention of board. That's their opportunity to do so. We don't necessarily have to listen to them but otherwise they don't have a meaningful opportunity to do that. Which we understand there's a bureaucratic burden and cost to being super productive in terms of documents so we want to be sensitive to that but in general more is better. It's also just as a practical matter they're public records and so if someone asks for them we have to give them it's much easier to just post to them that no one has to ask for them. Which is easy. Most of our facts are pretty small. I mean just be able to scan them as a PDF document so they can just be attached. Test to what? Post it. Post it. Post it. It's always better in PDF because that can answer a party cannot alter the text. I did bro. Yeah. Now we're beyond policy. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. Good point with whoever brought it up. Perfect. Was there anything else on that? So what did you decide about that? Oh right we can see I think you're distracted by this. Yeah. Why don't we just take must not evaluate? Formally it confuses things and I'm not sure it accomplishes anything. I didn't have a good example for an informal evaluation but it just caught my attention. So now I'm back to the well then the next one is like contradicting. I realize it doesn't mean that we're participating in a decision that involved it. Yeah. Okay. Now I think one is we don't sit down and evaluate the performance of employees but there might be a disciplinary action or some sort of action where we're required to review a decision that was made based on an evaluation. We are allowed under 1.3 discipline to participate in a to participate in a decision or actions involving the evaluated. If it's required by law or an issue. That part I understand but participating in a decision involving I mean there's a lot of words there or actions involving the evaluating is the same as participate in evaluating. It does not. No it's not. Okay. Because someone could come up and complain about their evaluation and a disciplinary action based on we could actually be evaluating the evaluation in our decision that's required but we won't do the actual evaluation. We won't sit down with principle X and say you know great job or bad job based on whatever data that's not a job. You ready to move on? Steve? I put formerly back in at that point but I think it's better than redundancy or better than contradiction but you guys I'm fine to be up you know on the scale 1 to 10 I care about a 3 on this. Let's go for okay. More comments on the board's relationship draft policy. You good? Board expectations and this one I think has the most new sections added that were not talked about at the right and I think before we jump into the full discussion there most of the new additions aren't included in the draft that was sent out in the packet well not most but I apologize the board committee section section F I did fill in but I didn't realize I didn't read the section in the packet because I thought I knew it was coming so I didn't realize until today that board committee stuff was not included so there was some more information related to the other board officers the vice chair the record keeper et cetera that's not included in this obviously the stuff that's in front of us now is the same it was just there are some additions that aren't included in this draft so there would still be more stuff forthcoming for another discussion that would yeah yeah So did you want us to discuss what's here now? The stuff that is here we could yes I don't think the sections that are in front of us are up to date it's just that there are still like I really did flesh out the board committee sections there's a lot more details in terms of standing ad hoc what's required for us in terms of charges durations reports et cetera the same thing we didn't have anything related to the other offices we have a vice chair we've elected a parliamentarian record keeper et cetera we didn't have anything in regards to their duties so when we really fleshed out the board chair duties I included the other officers in there as well so yes the information that is in front of us now is up to date with the exception of the stuff that's been accidentally omitted I'm sure you get to do that So folks I mean that has been the inclusion of that next time comments on the expectations draft policy yeah that's awesome we've never had this much detail about the chair's role before and I wonder if some of it is really the kind of material we should have in a policy you know I mean things like the chair's expected to be a strong advocate for the district and some of the stuff around you know it's just weird isn't it it seems a little weird to be in a policy it's more sort of how to be a board chair did this come and where did this come from this was it was a combination so the sections regarding like you're talking about the advocacy etc that was information from the BSBA for best practices for board chair it wasn't in policy it was just I'd use it to kind of structure the responsibility of the chair yeah so the BSBA would say that board chair's primary role is the team building goal setting agendas and running meetings effectively the community stuff as well that that was the BSBA's framework for this is how a good board chair operates and how it accomplishes board work successfully in practical terms the way a board chair functions effectively is that they remember that they serve at the pleasure of the other members of the board and that they check in with the board informally to make sure that they are representing that their leadership represents the the desires of the other folks on the board they don't have to and so what I'm saying is that there may be a statement about the fact that the board serves at the pleasure or the chair serves at the pleasure of the board I mean ultimately that is the most important political point about being a chair and under community it does say though the chair can speak for the board the chair independently and direct any actions by themselves in practical terms that's the result as soon as you act independently you lose your chair your chair but it's it's one of those things that you see you know a good chair just simply says am I solid all the time so you know this is a good document it is it is a bit verbose I think it's helpful there's a lot of good stuff in there yeah on the meeting some of these things I don't know to enforce the rules relating to the bill that's a roberts rule that's a roberts rule that's a good one which section are you in right now Bridget? I'm in the meetings protect the board from obviously delitory motions by refusing to recognize them ooh that would chair if he gets mad at us that would roberts not have to be mentioned or anyone to stage a walk out when necessary and I wasn't sure about the authenticating by a signature if that's even something that is a power of a board chair there are times there are documents and Jim you know better than I would that the board chair does sign on on things I can't give you a specific example but I know that I have previously thought and it'll be only your name on it even though Steve says you're representing the board you do that on behalf of the board not on the district because you don't need to do it it's not always exciting stuff it's a good document it clarifies a lot of things yeah no this is great work around on D1 I would like to advocate that if we're going to have that section that we could have the exact language of 312H and not creating a new rank yeah the exact language is at an open meeting the public shall be given a reasonable opportunity to express its opinion on matters considered by the public body during the meeting as long as order is maintained public comment shall be subject to reasonable rules established by the chair you're looking at D1 D1 D1 sorry so that's what that statue actually said I'm fine with that that's section 312 that's section 312H which is what's cited there so given the summary it's put in the actual statue because it says open meeting long I think that's really smart we don't try to create something that isn't true or isn't already established what is the taper video tape the so I looked into that a little bit in line and I talked about it I don't see that anyone use taper video tape anymore oh right then we use that they can record it I don't see that in the statue where you could cite it Jim Kondo the secretary of state says on their website that they can stir the law to allow taping or videotaping of meetings I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be permissible to record a public meeting as long as you're not disrupting the procedure but it's I don't think it actually says anything open meeting law so we could add it to the policy to be clear that we're fine with it I agree maybe record is better than video tape yes I thought about that I don't know if it belongs in here participation in board meetings and it's kind of a personal concern is the issue of participation in board meetings from afar and how do we want is that something we should be clear in policy or is it simply something the board recognizes but through technology limitations it's often felt as if it's virtually impossible even though we also say that we do it those of us who've tried to do it kind of give up after a while and it's not that big of an investment technology to actually make that work but it requires I think the board to either value it or not value it I don't know if the board member has a statutory right to it but I'm sure the board itself can establish the procedures around that and I don't know how that gets done or where that gets done but I would just say that as a board at some point we should make a decision about whether we're going to create the environment that allows that or not because right now it just feels like I'm out of luck if I'm traveling which I don't want to be I want to be participating so should we I feel the same way I've seen you try to call in and I also just feel it's something that the technology exists and there's a lot of entities out there that take advantage of it some of the video stuff's a little more clumsy but certainly good audio participation maybe a line reasonable measures shall be taken to allow for do comedy audio or virtual attendance by board members who are unable to be physically present so then the question I have to say also having tried it is reasonable so I think what is that and often if you're away and it's just audio this day and age putting me up on a Google video it's so super easy yeah I mean I've presented that way to boards before so it's super easy you have a big Steve head on the wall I guess it's going to be my question is that technology not something it doesn't require a financial investment oh got it we are in the world it requires the imagination as of July 1 I think part of this would be is we just it's not that we couldn't we haven't done it well so the question we can do it very easily I mean my other thought on that is it's it's such an easy problem to solve that do it really hate a policy no I don't I'm not saying we do it's getting a sense I want to get a sense from the board whether the board feels it's something worth trying to accommodate or not and I wouldn't be insulted either way it's more a matter of let's just get it clear so we can move on kind of a thing yeah I think given you travel a lot I travel from you know Bridget others travel too it's I think it's it's something we can do participation and we might have a quorum problem at some point well that's what I was going to say it's a philosophical discussion about it's not here but in some board they used to say you miss two meetings you're out or you know they used to write down how many meetings so but what is missing mean are you here is it a quorum if you're here on Google yeah so that's what I'm saying it's a philosophical you first started speaking I thought you were going to talk about the technology to allow the public to interact more with us at the meetings it's another level of it so it is another part of that discussion even called Jim we got it tonight maybe there's a general consensus that or something that we want to use technology in general to increase participation in every way we can you know big financial burdens or and that includes staff time to make that happen but if it's easy to access we should start to think that way about using technology to increase participation in every way we are 25 minutes okay so we're not going to put it in here but we ought to try I think we don't need to put it in the policy but we ought to give it a try I think you make a board commitment to get it up and get it running as long as we do it if you die a little bit of assistance a little more yeah and you'll probably I got to cut our door thank you so much be one of the the first okay last one superintendent expectations comments or questions on the reading of this policy I've got to fix the number I'll fix it answer the technology also 25 press two of them over there good night editing this one Jim I'm just making notes of edits on all of them and then I I don't know anything about how they're safe keeping the numbering so we're actually editing them he's done that already at least that I don't know they're minor edits yeah I'll ask one question 2.2 number 6 I don't know much about contracts law but proposed contracts provide flexibility to remove non-unit non-unionized employees for cause is cause the best term to use there was performance or is cause is the term is that the best yeah you can also say just cause but cause is your right word I kind of thought so but it was something I'm not terribly familiar with and it seemed a little bit odd so I just wanted to get some contracts really happy about 2.1 3 foster district culture that is open to the concerns of stakeholders to me that's a really wonderful positive aspirational statement in there that just makes me want to do a happy dance we have some mission business issues since we don't have one it says 2.0 global expectation that the last part of the first paragraph was in a manner that does not violate the mission and core values of the district we don't it's about that do we decide to leave it even though we don't have values we started talking about whether we wanted to have values or not that was an answered question because we had a list before we did have a list before so that's another question we have to decide won't those be the ends or what we achieve values how we live and we were avoiding using the word ends yeah still like we got to refer to something here and what is that we do two things possibly it could be consistent with commonly accepted business and professional ethics and practices and with achieving progress toward the district yeah it's going to say in a manner that advances the vision it does not violate because it's back in the negative world that's kind of cool you want to stick with core values I'm hesitant to have it in there if we don't have yeah if we don't have yeah because then it's you know it's just division it's going to include our values yeah which should represent your values yeah and your policies which are down and it's also it continues to be in the positive rather than in the negative in this way it continues to aspire and but yeah we needed we didn't really resolve this it's the same thing in the last sentence of 2.0 that we had this bad language that can be deleted so it's a vision I think so it's a vision and then it says link didn't we just state that though the way we we did 2.0 yeah I think I think we just get rid of that line it's kind of now established because in a manner that advances the vision of the district or I'm wondering if we cut the first cut the first clause and leave this because I kind of like leave yeah yeah yeah yeah because there are two different ideas they're two different ideas yeah so we could cut two off after ethics and practices yeah and then leave that last one in good work with vision instead of values that what so it here's to and reflects the district's vision cool here the superintendent must employ best practices for retention of staff I mean that's actually not new I think it just say the superintendent must not fail to employ best practices was in there yeah yeah okay let's fall short I mean if it it doesn't the fact that it was there it has to be there not second best practices he's got to be best practice there you guys have a list of those so clear where do I see that list well you know I don't think I remember noticing some of the policies have we referred to policies in the past as district policy or board policy it's it's totally inconsistent at this point yeah decision at some point we will go back to district policies yeah but we haven't gone back and fixed because there are no other policies for the district other board policies right I think I have no note on that I forgot I'm sorry I missed this before but we've completely gotten away from that that standard of that the superintendent that the board is judging that the superintendent shall be the judge of these things I can't remember how that's worded no we're not really away from that the judge of one thing the judge of one thing yeah and the board superintendent relationship yeah that's it's that the superintendent in managing the district under superintendent's discretion the superintendent has discretion to use any reasonable interpretation of the district's policies okay the board must respect and support decisions made by the superintendent that reflect a reasonable interpretation that's where best practices for staff to catch yeah okay that's why seeing how that ties together because you need a standard to judge things by that's the no second guessing line well yeah it's that very standard of that is totally not reasonable that's the standard because we have all new terribly clear policies so he knows exactly are we okay yeah um the only other thing is emergency superintendent's decision I think we discussed this maybe we decided on this remembering um she has something in there about just not assuring that the administrator designated as potential interim successors aware of that designation but the board is aware of the designation too or at least the board chair is aware of the designation that's fine huh and therefore the board should be aware right yeah but the duty from the superintendent would be the idea that I told you and it stands until it's changed it's done at least nearly and then it stays oh there being you know should something happen to the superintendent where you know this exception is quick and unplanned I win the power fall that's right that's right many other things that matter we don't have we don't have to the administrator designated as a potential is and after that before the is and the board chair yes the superintendent must ensure the administrator is the interim successor and the board chair is aware are aware are sorry except then then then it's not yeah then change the potential interim successor is reasonably proficient you know about this and that the potential interim successor is reasonably proficient for the role get rid of that comma and the board superintendent issues yeah we tried to put too much into that so it's just a period the superintendent must also ensure attention is there is there a responsibility that this person I mean I guess in this person whether they like it or not well they have to be willing no no and they have to be told oh I see it there I'm sorry willing to serve okay well they can be told but I don't make them willing but willing makes them willing well so the second she senses that the superintendent must ensure that an administrator designated as potential interim successor and the board chair are aware of that designation the potential interim successor is going to reasonably familiar with the board and superintendent issues so what's capable mean it means that they have time I think it means that they have the skill set and we discussed if it was true it doesn't require licensing because that's not typically necessary they probably went down time it would probably be someone with another first-time job just going to have them step out of their job I'm just wondering why it has to reasonably proficient for the role if it had to be somebody with administrative experience I would imagine that's what that means someone who could step in and yeah okay are there questions or comments? only 40 minutes over members of the public are hanging in there uh-huh members of the public are hanging in there yes one is a pretty common that's great that's a good policy perfect let me know if you can thank you very good good play notes we should be okay good play notes we should be okay sure I love all of the first day of school stuff the presence of social media that's great yes the memo the weekly memo that's great getting a copy of what you share with the staff it was really interesting to see so just a a kudos to on all of those friends yeah thank you thank you everyone in the district for a great start to the school year great communication I heard from parents great things about there how pleased they were with the staff this week good and unions look good and that's not an easy feat to pull off right now yeah and stay tuned very shortly for a picture of the vestibule that we got today the colors and everything nice yeah that's a fantastic job so it's just just a great start so how I didn't think about this but the email I sent about how are we doing with Roxbury how are we doing I don't I just that was not a question that was appropriate well I think we talked we've talked about not putting people on the spot without oh okay um warning so I I don't want to cut off Jim was a superintendent but I just want to say I thought Jim said we would hear that that's why I asked well okay we'll do it later yes I can answer them yeah some of them are quick do you want me to just answer the quick ones it's up to Jim yeah good so the food situation right now is that so Tina asked how food was getting to Roxbury so currently Jim and the kitchen staff here in Montpelier are cooking this the high school are cooking this food and then busing it and trucking it over to Roxbury until October the reason being is that the hood project got messed up in the kitchen so the hood is being installed in October and once that's installed we can use the stove over there and all that kind of stuff so everything's pretty much ready to go except for the hood so then we'll like cook there yes just trying to remember and how's the busing going the busing the busing is I would chalk it up to first days of school kind of busing challenges that most places experience the bus from Roxbury to the mainstream middle has been about 15 minutes late every day so it's something that we're talking the bus company about do we want to change the route so it's not going directly through middle of Montpelier a time that's busy for traffic so we're trying to work out some stuff who's around that I mean there's their first day issues that happened some of it was merger related some of it was just first day school related so so we're working on trying to get that there 15 minutes earlier than it is currently showing up yeah and I do just want to reiterate we're kind of more decorum and I know that you did send an email so that you got lost in the mix but let's try to stick to the agenda and you know read stuff beforehand ask questions but email beforehand so yeah either it could be if it's a simple question to be answered or you know it's something we've discussed there's a perversion for it yeah and Heather and I are getting those packets together on Friday morning so any questions for the next Wednesday forward reading should be to me before Friday so we can get it in the stuff in the packets thank you for those answers yeah and if there is an email that was overlooked and it's something that you're waiting for so you know can go after the meeting and adjourn and we do need to formally adjourn move or you adjourn okay second favor aye closed great thanks all