 and welcome back to tomorrow my name is Benjamin Higginbotham now before we get started I did want to give a huge shout-out to all of the patrons of tomorrow who've dealt to make this specific segment of this episode happen these are people who've contributed $10 or more to this specific episode we've also got our tomorrow producers these are people who've contributed $5 or more to this specific episode we are crowdfunded show every single dollar helps head on over to patreon.com slash TMRO for more information on how you can help crowdfund the shows of tomorrow all right we're gonna be talking about the NASA Centennial Challenges specifically the 3D Habs project and joining us today we've got Eric Reiner's and Dr. Palin Gooden Buyer's but oh Dr. Palin give me your last name again I'm sorry I screwed it up all right I will just you're joining us Dr. Dr. Palin you are an assistant professor in the Department of Civil Engineering and Construction at Bradley Bradley University and Eric you are a program manager within the Innovation and Technology Development Division of Caterpillar Caterpillar being like I think a caterpillar the big giant machines correct well we do make those that's correct but a big part of what we do with that and our products involves technology to make that possible so all right so let's back up a little bit and talk about you you're both working on this NASA Centennial Challenge first off what are NASA Centennial Challenges so the NASA Centennial Challenge is a program within NASA that's focused on incentivized R&D so NASA offers prizes to incentivize people to go try to solve a problem and develop the technology to solve a problem and so it's very analogous to and it's it's actually modeled I think after the X Prize which maybe a lot of the viewers may be familiar with that and so what specific problem are you guys trying to solve here so this this competition is really focused on how do you solve the the issue of habitats both for for Mars and NASA's mission there but also here trust really and how do we grow the technology based here on earth as well for automation and construction and improving the overall construction process and is that where Caterpillar comes into this particular area yeah it is so so Caterpillar's been involved in innovation for infrastructure development for for the last 90 years and and we continue to be focused on that into the future and this is an area one of those areas that we can talk about of things that we're doing and looking forward into the future and Palin what is your involvement in the 3dhab challenge actually in this competition we are the host and we are collaborating with NASA and with the support of Caterpillar, Bechtel and Brickhand Motors and so as the host what are your responsibilities for this project we are organizing the event with our collaborators so we set up the rules and we are now collecting the applications then we will organize the competition on site and collect the submissions and what are some of the rules for this have-challenge and for rules the goal of starting with the goal of rules this is a like series of competitions to advance additive construction technology for the creation of a sustainable housing solution on Mars as well as on earth too so our goal is to innovate metal new metal compositions as well as autonomous printing processes so in this space which is a structural member we have three levels in the first level we will be asking to we will be asking like competitors to print a cylinder for us for the compression test at the second level they will be asking them to print a beam for the tension test and at the last level which is gonna be on site we will be asking them to print at dawn with an autonomous technology and we have some images from some different phases of the competition I believe it is I think there was like a first second and third plot prize that was given let's let's data let's do these in reverse order let's do number three first what are we looking at here what was this part of the competition so so NASA constructed this Centella challenge program into three phases or buckets approaches the first was a design competition and that's what you're what you're showing right now and the results of that design competition so this was really about the involving the dreamers and the artisans and the architects as to what might the habitats look like for Mars now the next phase is get into well how do we really be able to execute those habitats for Mars and the technology for that and for earth and so the next step is the structural phase so the focus is peeling was referencing is for the teams that choose to compete to come up with the material and the structural performance of that material and the next phase that we're starting right now and then following that will be the final phase where they will take that capability and actually build a sub scale a full subscale habitat structure that would fit on say an 18 by 16 foot size pallets that'll be the size of structure that they will ultimately be able to print at the in the final step and in this current step that we're starting right now and engaging on and how the rules have been constructed it's really constructed to drive material development that will leverage from a sustainability standpoint things that for for NASA are going to be they'll be taking with them as part of their packing materials and on earth they're part of our traditional waste stream and it's another way of using that in a much more sustainable way so an example that would be that for instance teams that were able to come up with a material formulation that leveraged the plastics in water bottles as a binder for this material would score very well in the rules as an example which brings up an interesting question from the chat room jazz throw it asks what materials do they 3d print with are there restrictions on that or can they pick anything they want be it found here on earth moon Mars etc yes so the point structure is set up to drive the teams to try to come up with material formulations that will be based upon materials that will be found on Mars and on the moon so for example the regular so the rock the sand or the rocky material that's in the that's it's a component of the material being the salt for instance will score very well because the salt was prevalent on Mars and on and on the moon and then likewise on the binders things that would be traditionally they would be taking with them in their packing materials and so on that they're already having how they can reuse it so one of the goals for NASA is to try to limit minimize the amount of mass or material they have to take with them to be able to construct the infrastructure that they're going to need on the surface of Mars for instance because it's so expensive and prohibitive to launch all that from earth we are also discouraging the use of water as well we are like we are encouraging to use off like indigenous materials and recyclable materials used in missions but we are discouraging the important materials and the water in the pointing system that's interesting so you get to the moon there there is potentially tons of water on the moon we don't want to print with that because we want to use that as say water for radiation protection and for human habitation or are we thinking that the process there is there won't be water where we go I think I think that NASA is some of their driver is if they can minimize the amount of water that they need then they don't have to drive a lot of previous activity to be able to extract that water ahead of time to do the infrastructure some of the infrastructure construction because some of the things beyond habitats that they may be looking at needing to build could even be with for man missions could be landing pads because of the size of the landers the amount of thrust that they'll be creating there are some risks that the spacecraft may create creators themselves as they try to land and so on so if they end up meeting some amount of landing pad or things like that pre-placed minimizing the water that has to be essentially mined early on material formulations that do that could be advantageous for them. Trebles has an interesting question which is let's say a competitor makes good a good structure is there a plan to get that in actual use on earth or is this just a challenge for say Mars or the moon or space haves? No I think the application on earth is very much of an interest looking at materials that can be part of a sustainability effort as we reference before plastics from water bottles and soda bottles for instance are prolific in our waste stream not just in developed countries but also in in third world countries as well and if we can utilize those materials to to build our structures that are needed going forward I think there's great benefit trust really for that and we're seeing the need ongoing need as we look out into the future with the projected population growth here on earth and the shift in the standard of living in that population for significant need for housing as we look forward into the future and so what are the ways that we're going to be able to construct that housing quickly efficiently cost-effectively. So is this potentially this technology is more than just habitation on moon and Mars this could be potentially the way up we build our houses in a hundred years? Absolutely. Interesting question I'm going to combine two questions from Tawikid which is will the habitats have to be fully 3d printed or could they be inflatable shells with like an exo shell so do you have to 3d print it from top to bottom or can you kind of can you use lava tubes on the moon to make part of your habitation or use existing structure somehow? In this process we want it to be autonomous this is the first rule so and the 3d process is the method since the like we don't want astronauts to build a like a construction project over there so that's why we are encouraging to use 3d printers. Is there a budget limit? Trevles asks is the budget limit is this just about technology or is it are there economics in this as well? Well the budget is really going to be on on the teams the teams that decide to enter and compete and so how the competition works is that there are rules that are developed for these phases and this next phase that's underway and registration has opened the rules are posted out at www.bradley.edu slash challenge and they can find those rules and along with that is the structure of how the prize will be that's really the NASA and the sponsors side NASA will be providing the prize money the sponsors Caterpillar and Bechtel Corporation and Brick and Mortar Adventures working with Caterpillar will support Bradley then in the execution of the competition and so this next phase that we're starting right now will have some aspects of it that the teams will do locally in their own team center wherever that may be and they do some testing that they have to provide those results back and then that'll culminate in a on-site head-to-head competition at Caterpillar's Edwards training facility just outside of Peoria, Illinois where both Palin and I are located and the total amount of awards are $1.1 million and these awards will be distributed in different levels so for example a team can join at level one and can be at the first one of the first teams and then they can earn some money to invest in their second level then they can use the second level of awards for the third level too in the end they're ultimately owning this technology that that they've created for these habitations so that's kind of their incentive as well not only do they get these reward levels but now they're kind of the the kings of the this new technology and can actually go out and start doing these things correct or do you own the technology at this point? No the teams own the technology they have the rights to the intellectual property that they're creating and then of course at the end of this then there's multiple things that are opportunities that they could have with Caterpillar and with some of the other sponsors to look at ways of continuing to move forward with the technology development. You mentioned demoing this here on earth in subscale models are there any plans to demo this on the moon or on Mars as well is that is that like level four like let's put this on the space launch system and and sling it over to the moon and let's build a hab? Well I think ultimately that's what NASA wants to see happen from this technology development. I think there'll be a fair amount more work to do on the technology past what we're gonna do in the competition before its flight ready if you will from from a NASA mission perspective but but that's one of the benefits of working early in this these kinds of phases with NASA with private industry is the ability to work on technology that have multiple use capability so that meets ultimately can meet NASA's mission objectives but also have value here on earth trust really. And what about something outside of kind of this scope so we're talking about habs but habs don't have to be on the surface of anything so Zweeby I think it's how you pronounce that username is asking if you can 3D print an airtight habitat in place without an atmosphere can you adapt that technology and print maybe a space station or a floating habitation or does it really matter like how you get to the habitation do you care if it's on a surface or is it any sort of habitation be it in space or on a on a body. Well I think for this for this competition the focus is habitat that would be on a surface but certainly I think as we get to understand the technology better through this process I think NASA could certainly be looking at is it viable to do things with it in space as well. I think it's kind of cool that Caterpillar is one of the sponsors of this because it's an interesting tie-in to kind of the future of construction how did you guys decide that this is something that you wanted to do. Well we were made aware of it in NASA as part of our ongoing some of other ongoing activities with them and as we saw what they were laying out from this competition standpoint and the longer-term potential of the technology and how it can impact things here terrestrially it fits very well with who Caterpillar is and how we support drive innovation and deliver capability to our customers worldwide for them to enable progress and infrastructure around the world. And where can people go for more information on the Centennial Challenges and specifically the 3dhab challenge. You can find the rules on the website which is www.breadly.edu slash challenge you can find rules you can find freaking lost questions that we will be updating it monthly based on the questions that they will submit to us and the related drawings that needed to be printed on the same website. Dr. Palin and Eric I want to thank you so much for taking time out of your Saturday and joining us talking about the 3d challenge is gonna be really cool this is kind of the future of habitation right we're not going to bring huge giant Habs to Mars we're not going to bring giant cabs to the moon if we're going to colonize these areas we're gonna have to figure out how to do this in place in those locations so this is a critical technology for colonization of the solar system and then that can be reused here on earth so I think it's actually very very important challenge and it's going to be very very cool and I appreciate you guys taking time to talk to us about that today. Appreciate you having us.