 Well, just please bear in mind the fact that, look, thank you very much first for coming along. And it's always good to get these out there. There's a really important message in what I'm about to say. The reality is that Australia is a very much sought after destination by transnational criminals. And we actually pose two parts of their criminal operations, especially when we're talking about card skimming or credit card compromises. First of all, we are a harvesting ground for credit card data and compromise cards. And our ATMs are a point of attack for that harvesting. But secondly, we're also an extraction point. So if we look at the data from cards or cards that have been harvested in Australian ATMs, they tend to have the money cleaned out of those compromised accounts at overseas destinations. The more recent ones, we know that a very short period of time money was taken out of them in Asia. If you look at some Romanian card skimming activities previously, with six weeks later, we saw monies taken out of those accounts in Toronto, Los Angeles, Spain and Italy simultaneously. So it's a complete environmental, global environment for these crooks. What we're seeing now is the Australia being used as the extraction point, and that was probably the focus of the operation. So international card skimming operations, credit card compromise operations, using Australia, and particularly South-East Queensland, as the cash extraction point that then saw European, the majority were European based cards as the extraction point here in Australia, and the money was then pulled out and sent overseas to other recipients as part of that network. So if that's, if you like, is the over, just to put everything in context so everyone's clear on this is not a case where the ATMs will, not that we've established yet, will compromise, but this is the extraction process. Oh, lame in terms. It's not. So this sort of, this isn't about like we've seen a few months ago where they put the duck bill over the money's been pulled out here, but to me that's, that's extracting money out, right? So you're saying it's not about, we're wondering if you're saying it's not about taking money out of the ATMs, but we are. No, no, no, no, okay. If we look at the matter some months ago, that was compromising cards here in Australia. Now those compromise cards would then be, be fleeced of their accounts overseas. This scenario is where we have cards compromised overseas. The data is brought to Australia and the accounts are fleeced from this location. So when you say foreigners might, that's right. Yeah, so the 20 that were arrested yesterday were actually part of this international scam that are taking the money from foreigners. Right, and it goes to the next point now to achieve their goal and we see this a lot with cyber crime is that when we have compromised accounts, these criminal networks have to engage locals to assist in getting the money out of the country. So they engage or recruit money mules. And the network that we've seen that we've identified and we are continuing to investigate are Southeast Queensland based money mules that have assisted this criminal network in getting the cash out of this country. No, they're using cash remittance agencies to send the money overseas. 20s in Europe or specifically Romania, France and England. That's correct. We are talking a combination of both. Principally I should state a lot of these money mules may only be used for a very short time. They may not be used continuously. What's concerning is the money mules are, as I said before, the hub of the international process. They need to get the money out of the country. For example, you look at internet banking fraud, so people get phished or their account is compromised by a key logger. The criminals now have access to those funds, but they have difficulty in getting the money out of the country. So they recruit mules in exactly the same process what we're talking about with the ATMs. So a lot of those times when you apply for jobs online and you see that work from home, be our agent, you're actually being recruited as a money mule. And we need to get that message out that if you are sending cash overseas on behalf of others, there's a very good chance you are involved with a criminal enterprise. You must assist immediately. If you continue, you will be called to account. Sorry, what I just said was, for example, internet banking fraud. That's electronic transfers, but at some point someone has to go and get money out of the bank. So in this one, you've got a compromised ATM. You've got sorry, you've got a compromised card data. You cloned it onto another piece of plastic. You simply go to an ATM, withdraw the money. Sorry. Great population base. Oh, it occurs right across the country. It's omnipresent. It's everywhere. No, we've been careful. The investigation has continued. The network is broader than what we've identified through the process of prosecution so far. And we're satisfied that these people actually have exercised this money mule operation on more than one occasion. And clearly understood it will be alleged that they clearly understood what they're involved with. We are talking Romanian. We're talking Australian. No, we're talking Brisbane, Gold Coast, Humber. Probably not to the scale. And when we look at the efficiency of their operations, it was very good. In terms of have we seen it before, the answer would be yes. Have we been in a position where, if you look at the global length of the criminality, and when I said to you before, where you actually had six, four countries as the extraction points simultaneously on compromised accounts in Australia, that's extremely efficient and very well networked and well organized. There have been cases in America where there's been literally hundreds of ports simultaneously rating accounts. What here is the first time we've seen where we've actually identified a major network and been able to take the majority of those people out. Sorry, the extraction point here was... Europe in this case. But every country that has ATMs that relies upon magnetic stripe data to process their withdrawals is a target. I can't know that wasn't it, but I can't say. But it wasn't front information from the banks. There's a mixture of some people are in custody and the majority notice to appear. Oh, without doubt. Money mills facilitate and underpin a significant majority of cyber crime based offences and card skimming related operations. We need to get the warning out to people that this is a serious offence, that you will be held to account and please, if someone approaches you to send money overseas, let us know. Could be you, could be me. Well, hopefully not me. What kind of people? Anyone could be swept up in this. Absolutely. Well, if you sent it once, maybe you did a good faith and all, can you do me a favor that I say but twice. And then if you're starting to receive your commission for your efforts, hang on a sec. What's your incentive to do it in the first place? Well, in this case, I can't really go into the specifics, of course, because these people before the course. But if you're talking about money milling generally, we have seen situations where people have been engaged and have actually truly believed they've been employed by an international agency to undertake these roles. We've seen people surrender their identity, their passports, submit resumes, supply online to very sophisticated high profile looking websites. And people have actually been completely sucked into the fact thinking they are employed. Yes, that's a commission based income. That's right. Work from home, be our consultant. Yes, and up to this, fishing emails. Oh, sorry, the recruitment emails. You possibly might be able to find you some, but that's generally speaking, that's not in this, not in this case. This was word of mouth person to person, we believe. Look, I think we are a soft target in terms of card skimming compromises because we rely at our ATMs completely on magnetic stripe data, which is so easily compromised. In terms of Southeast Queensland, it's a massive tourist destination. As a society, I think we are so multinational. And what we're comprised of, and we support a lot of offshore charities and activities, we travel the world a lot. So it's not particularly unusual for Australians to send money all around the world. So it's a good question. All the money has been transferred out of the country. We are investigating a sum just under a million dollars. I don't know. Well, you can actually, once you've got the data, you can claim it onto any police of plastic that has a magnetic stripe, such as your, it might be your local wine clubs membership loyalty card. It could be your library card. Absolutely. As long as it's got a magnetic stripe on it, it'll carry the card data at their industry standard sizes. It'll fit into an ATM. The chip is only at this point being used at the point of sale terminals in businesses and offers and affords complete security. At all of our ATMs, unlike some of those in European countries, we still only have the option to use the magnetic stripe. Oh, we've had that in the past. Absolutely. And we see it quite regularly, you know, and especially when we have overseas shopping gangs coming into Queensland in the past, they'll have a reminder they'll go around and take orders and they'll purchase with counterfeit cards. They will actually have a small device that wipes the data off the cards at the end of the day, then clones new compromise card data straight on to the same card and continue shopping. That's correct. And then cash remitters using mules. So I go to you and say, listen, can you do me a favour, 10% commission for you. You just need to hear the name detail. Just go to this cash remittment agency and make some easy money. That's correct. No, no, the 20 other people are mules. These are the mules in the majority. There is some exception to that. But in the majority of these people are the mules. No, I'm talking about, sorry, money, Western Union, MoneyGram, TravelX is a challenge. It is a challenge, but I've got to be careful what I say here now. I've never had that been asked that question before, but it's an enjoyable challenge. And I say, I don't revel in the fact that we see all this crime occurring, but it's nice to be cerebrally engaged. So it's like you've got a new battle every day. But that's what I'm paid for. No, this operation is primarily based in South East Queensland with obviously links to overseas. We are still continuing conduct investigations. I expect there will be some linkages into state. This is part of a global network. And this is one operational sell, if you like. I mean, the fact that so much money is being transferred overseas gives you an indication that entered so many varying locations, how vast is this empire? I can't read. I can't answer that. Brian, so just run through again. Your advice to people, just sort of grab a home. Like, you know, if you're approached, this is what you're going to look out for. If you're asked this question, if you are approached in person or online and you are asked to send money overseas in cash to a person you don't physically personally know, don't do it. Get independent advice. You do not want to be dragged into a situation where you are money laundering for criminals. You for money laundering, you can face penalties up to 20 years in prison, four or five, one to the rest. There is no, it's all it's any person that has two legs, can actually walk to an ATM, extract the money, then walk into a cash remittance agency, fill out a form and then send it away. And very often a mule could be simply someone who's given the cash and asked to send it overseas. That's well, yeah, that's right. We haven't needed to rely upon them too much at this point in time actually. I wonder, I want to go on the specifics and please bear in mind that a lot of my answers, they've been quite general and to the mulling and the issues because I cannot go too specifically into the matters that are before the court. So, yeah. Oh, completely. I mean, whilst we've, we are proceeding against, in excess of 20 people so far, the network we've identified 70 people involved with this network. That's your hope? Well, I hope not because that means knowledge and complicity but we've still got a lot more investigations to undertake. I've reached out to our international colleagues and it'll go on for some time. There was certainly a significant hub centre of operation on the Gold Coast but as I said, it expands right throughout South East corner. It's the biggest money laundering network that we've encountered but in terms of when you're speaking about card skimming operations, it's not necessarily the biggest. Oh, absolutely. So, while we're saying tonight this particular bastard's relating to South East Queensland, you've been investigating this cell with reaches into other tourist hotspots in the Queensland area? Look, I'm quite confident what we see with this cell is aptly, probably replicated in the majority of capital cities in this country and or major provincial cities. Yeah, no, if you've got an airport you potentially have some international criminals who are flown in to undertake a purpose. In fact, if we look back at another case study, we saw two card skimmers from overseas flying from Dubai. They hit Perth, Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, flew out to Singapore. All in the space of two weeks. And that's how we've got a view, you know, this problem is an international problem and we are but a stepping stone as part of their criminal enterprises. But the point is, if I just may make it, is that they can only be successful if they can harvest local assistance and we've got to call upon the public, reject these opportunities because they are criminal enterprises and you will be held to account. Absolutely. And as I said, for example, the recent, the duck bill incident, we know some of the cash extraction points were in Asia for that. Incidents occurred before. As I said, the extraction, the cashouts occurred in the United States, Canada, Spain and Italy all at the same time. It's extremely well-organized. It depends whatever's in the account they can clean out and the limit of the ATMs. And it should be pointed out, one of these things came to, this issue really came to light through excellent work of members of the Gold Coast community who saw a person acting suspiciously around an ATM. That's how it all started. So all the good work that you folk have done for us by getting the message out there paid off because people saw someone acting suspiciously around an ATM. Oh, right here. I always do this here. When you say something good, you're doing the kind of thing. Oh yeah, say everything else before it was crap. One very important fact in this case is the fact this was brought to our attention by the brilliant work by some local community members on the Gold Coast when they saw a person acting suspiciously around an ATM. Now, had it not been for vigilant members of the community, this operation would probably continue to be operating and ripping off bank accounts. And getting others involved in these processes. Sorry? No, you're thinking of card skimming. This is extraction. So all they are doing is going up two. I'll speak broadly. I'm not speaking specifically. But if you saw someone at an ATM and all of a sudden they're going one card, two card, three card, and then went to the ATM right beside it went one card, two card. I'm just using this example. I'm not in any way applying that specifically to this matter. Yeah, to my knowledge, and I've been in this area, yes, that'd be right. But I've got some, I've got a big news story for that, but you're not getting it today. You're welcome. I refuse to acknowledge the word stupidity. Gallability sometimes, but we're looking at the criminal behaviours here. And that's what we're looking to highlight. But in some terms, gallability, yes. And it really depends on the circumstances. And we sit back sometimes and make that judgment call from behind this bench or in these chairs. And we don't understand just how sophisticated the approach was in the first instance. Sometimes, and I've seen files and cases, I've said no, there was no sufficient knowledge of awareness. And everything that was put up was very plausible. Other times, hang on a sec, clear case for all these reasons. Absolutely. For example, if people that have surrendered their entire identity to provide copies of their driver's loss and passport and bank account details, to me a lot of the time, hang on a sec, you've got to say, were they sucked in? And they actually are they a victim of identity theft. And some of those circumstances, you may lean that way. Oh, absolutely. You know, we're talking about crime, we're talking about crime gangs, we're talking about organised criminals. And I can tell you, absolutely with complete confidence, they will, you know, in the past have been threats, there have been visitations and it can be quite frightening for people. This is serious crime. It is not something to be taken lightly. Look, I can't answer you if you come back to me later, I'll have it for you. But I can't remember the exact location. There's too many names, places, dates, flying around in the head. I'm getting old and only so much goes on this time.