 Have you seen this before? Oh, no, haven't. But are those the so-called free-range chickens, or is that the ones in the barn? It would be a combination. Free-range chickens, they keep them in a massive barn, they can crowd them and they might let them out. But they still call them free-range? Or are those barn chickens? So they don't always adhere to free-range standard, but even free-range standard, it means nothing for the animal in the big scheme of things. I think it's more just a marketing ploy. There are things, they're slightly better conditions free-range, but they're still horrific. I mean, they still die on the way to the slaughterhouse, they're still hung upside down, shocked in an electric bath and then had their throat slit. They still live a life of slavery, their eggs are taken from them, their children are taken from them, they're essentially living in eternal torture. I thought, see, I always thought that one of the best, I mean, British pork is one of the best standards in Europe, which might be. This here isn't really, this is pretty standard, there's nothing surprising about this. To me, I've seen a lot of it and the reality is this is where the animals we eat come from. Even the things that come out of them, like eggs and dairy are horrific industries, you know about the dairy and egg industries? Yes, yes, the egg one, not the dairy one. Okay, so in the egg industry, the females obviously produce more eggs than... It's the male ones, it's not the produce more eggs than they can. Then they're naturally supposed to, they produce nearly an egg a day, puts a lot of strain on their reproductive system and when they're spent, they get killed. But what happens is when they separate their chicks at the beginning of their life and they kill all of them, they put them in a maserade or they put them in a bag and suffocate them. My mum told me that about the male chickens and even the female ones, the beaks are just... They de-beak the females, so that really hurts, sometimes they die because they can't eat, because the pain of their... You know, this is a sow stall, so the mother pigs are kept in there six weeks at a time. I was just at the gas chambers yesterday in Suffolk and they're killing a lot of the mothers because they're just spent, they've got nothing left to give to the farmers. So after a lot of misery, they send them to get gassed and people eat them. So essentially we're eating the body of a mother who suffered, had their children serial kidnapped from them throughout their whole life, lived in these cages and then we eat their bodies. So what do you think about that? It does hurt. I've been aware of these things, not as aware. Now I see how it really is, but it's terrible. Do you think it's unnecessary? Yeah, completely. I think anyway, we're eating far too much meat. Here you have a vegan. Oh, you're a vegan, are you? Wow, that's amazing. What made you switch? The animals? The animals? I've been a vegetarian for seven years. Okay, and you just didn't know about the other industries? Yeah, I wanted to switch. First I wanted to try it off for 30 days. Yeah, that's a good idea actually. That's a really good one. How about yourself? Have you thought about it? Become vegan? No, admittedly not. I'd see my mother, for example, who's living in Germany. She lives near a farm where the animals truly have a... A better life? Actually completely. Okay. What about their death? 10 pounds. Well, they... They have a better death? Oh, completely. They are completely... I mean, she's seen it, even herself. Okay. They're completely... Do you think it's justified though? We don't have to eat them. Do you think it's justified to kill them? Well, we don't have to eat them. We're right there. I have to admit, as long as an animal has that life, that particular farm that my mother goes to, in Germany, in my mind, that's okay. It's okay to kill an animal for a sandwich if you don't need to? No matter how nice their life was. Do you think they want to live? Like, they're scared to die, even if they've had a good life? Well, I don't know if the consciousness of the animal, if as long, of course, you have to be extremely careful. I see your point. What about a dog? A dog wants to live? I don't know whether the consciousness is that far that it is. Well, you know that another human wants to live? True. How do you know that? I don't know. What makes you think another human wants to live? Because they say so. Language determines that. What if they try to avoid me with a knife, a pig? They were scared of me trying to stab them. Would that show you that they didn't want to die? That would show me that they didn't want to be hurt. Why wouldn't they want to be hurt? They care about their own well-being? Because of pain. So if you were in the pig's position, you wouldn't want someone to harm you? I would not want to suffer any pain. You're absolutely right. You wouldn't want to have your life taken short? Yeah. Again, the question of consciousness, whether if someone is not aware. Like, let's say, yes, no, I want to die. But if I or I was led somewhere without knowing, I was about to be killed. That's murder. You're talking about murder? Yes. If someone murdered your family member, you would want justice. You see? Yes. But I think for me, it's really this matter of consciousness, having the consciousness about these things and not, and because human beings... You're against animal cruelty, yeah? Cruelty, yes. So you think they have moral value, animals? You think they have some kind of moral value, animals? No. But you're against them being mistreated? Yes. But if they had no moral value, why would you care how they're treated? Because I don't want any being to suffer pain. You know they suffer pain, so they have moral value then. Wait, no, no, moral value. No, no, think about it that way. Okay. Look at the animal world, in the jungle and everything. Yeah. I mean how... Or let's even just look at a simple cat. Okay. How can it kill and play with a bird for hours? Yeah, that's a cat, that's a cat. Yeah. Is that moral value? Cats don't have moral agency like us. We know right from wrong. A cat is killing to survive. Yeah? Yeah, well, no, no, wait, wait, wait. Why does it have to play with... I've witnessed it before. Yeah. Why does it have to play with the animal for quite a long time before it then decides to finally kill it? Would you say that we should justify our behaviour by the behaviour of a cat or should we be a little bit more civilised and you know what I'm saying? No, because you're just saying they have moral value. Animals do. Animals do. That cat doesn't. Why not? No, no, no, that's different. The cat has moral value. It's not okay for us to hurt the cat, but the cat doesn't have moral agency. It doesn't know right from wrong. A cat doesn't... A cat is an obligate carnivore, yeah? Yes, yes, that's true. So they eat to survive? That's true. Are we eating animals to survive? No. So why are we doing it? I like it just for pleasure. Do you think an act of evil is justified because we derive pleasure from it? Think of any other act of evil that makes someone feel good. Is that act of evil justified because it makes them feel good? Think of really bad things like rape or murder. No, no, of course not. So in a similar way, killing an animal because we derive pleasure from that isn't morally justified because we don't need to do it to survive. And that animal, you know they feel pain, you're against cruelty, so that means you know they feel pain. But, wait, wait, wait. But if now, let's look at that far, my mum goes to, I mean, she eats very little meat, but still if she bites me, she goes there. Those animals, she's seen them, they are not stressed at all. That's what they are, I mean, from beginning till the end. Well, that's treatment. That's treatment. Good treatment from beginning till the end. A knife in the throat in a happy animal is still as bad as a knife in a throat in a sad animal. Think of it as a happy human. You treated your wife really well her whole life. Then one night you smothered her in her sleep, she didn't know. Now, it's okay, she didn't suffer, she didn't feel a thing. Now, is that justified? Again, here. If she, for example, was suffering, right? If she was suffering. But she's not? No, no, wait. Now, what about euthanasia? What about people who decide to die? That's a different thing. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about raising pigs here that are happy and stabbing them in the throat. Yeah. That's what we're talking about. It's not euthanasia. Yeah, but you're asking... I tell her dad. I know. But no, but... So do you know... Sorry, do you... This is a really interesting... No, no, I'm having a really good debate with you. This is amazing. I really... No, because I'm just thinking... Because I was asked, does the pig want to live? Yeah, obviously. Because they avoid pain. They avoid pain. And they feel love for their children. They express emotion. That is true. You see that emotion in yourself and you know you want to live. If you couldn't speak, you still know, I'd give you the benefit of the doubt that you wanted to... You valued your life. I would stick up for you. I would stand up for you. See, it's this survival instinct, right? You don't have that. We all have. We have supermarkets. We don't need to survive. No, no, no, not about meat. In general. Survival instinct that I don't want to be. Let's say I'm in an island. Someone who tries to kill me. It's a survival instinct. Yeah, but why do you have that? Because you value your life. Every animal has that. Every animal has that. Every bird. Every dog. Every cat that you feel love for. That they feel love for you. They show affection. Yeah, but it's on a different level. No, it's not. How? How is it different? I... You have to explain now. I just really think it's a... No, because I really think that... Pigs don't value their life. So it's okay to stab them in the throat. Come on. You are wrong. It's very... Come on. Just be honest here. No, I'm truly... Come on. If you had a pig here and it was so cute and I just stabbed it in the throat, would you... Would that make you feel a certain way? Would you just think, oh, he cares. It's thrashing in pain. Just keep stabbing it. No, no, no. No. That's exactly what I don't want. The death has to be in a different way. The killing of the animal. Tell me how. Tell me how to kill an animal in a humane way. There's no humane way. Well, if there is no humane way... No, the way I think it is done at that farm, I believe, is that the cows, they are brought into the same environment where they always are. Okay. Okay. Completely stress-free. Yeah. And I think that is with this shot. Oh, okay. So that's humane? A shot in the head? Well, I mean... Would you... Okay, okay. There's like a millisecond... I'll tell you this phrase. The way you judge whether or not something is humane, first ask if you'd want it done to yourself. Well, I have to say, if I didn't know that was going to happen, that is the way I... Truly, rather than someone stabbing me like this... Oh, no, no, no. No, no, no. Now you give them two options. Rather than being stabbed, rather than being shot in the head. I'll give you another option. Harmony and freedom. How about that option? Would you rather that or being shot in the head for no reason? This is what we're talking about. No, the thing is, the thing is, if I don't know, I don't care, to be honest, because I don't believe in such... But it doesn't... No. Of course, I don't want to. Does that justify murder? Does that justify shooting people in the head because they don't know about it? There's many people who get killed that don't know about it. Yeah. This is... That's not it. You know that you value your life. If I took your life from you, that's further well-being you won't get to experience. People around you are going to be suffering. Yeah, no, yeah, yeah. That is the only reason why I'm really sorry about that. That is my... Truly... But do you really believe that if an animal doesn't feel it, then it's okay to just shoot things in the head, shoot animals in the head, humans in the head that don't feel it, that makes it okay. As long as there's no suffering involved. If I now didn't have my children and my husband, that's right. And I was alone and you just shot me in the head. Of course my parents were very... No. What's the other option though? I don't shoot you in the head. I let you live in peace. That's the other option. You have that. Yes. We can give that to animals. That's what vegans are. Yeah, but at the same time... We're giving them the other option. If that happens to me, right? I don't care. I'm dead and I don't know anymore. But I would never shoot you in the head because I respect other life. That's what vegan is. No, but I'm truly thinking... I'm really... I'm not joking. Okay. If I didn't know that my children are here, they would seriously suffer. My husband would suffer. My parents would suffer. If I didn't know that... Does that make it okay if you didn't know? That's the question. Is it okay to kill you if you didn't know? Is it okay to kill anyone if they didn't know? No, it's not okay. Okay. That's all I want. That's all I want. I personally wouldn't care. I just want you to admit that it's wrong to do that to an animal. That's true. No, no, no. All your meat come from your mum's farm. Does all your meat come from your mum's farm where they were treated happily? Not my meat, no. Okay. That's what we're talking about here. That is the bad thing. Absolutely. No, no, no. That's not just the bad thing. Even the happy farms are still bad. No, I think it's okay. No, you just said it's not, though. You just told me it's not okay to take an animal's life. I didn't say an animal's life. I said a human's life, because we're talking about humans. We're the same in many ways. In many ways, but not in all ways. So if we have slight differences... Like, for example... So you're discriminating now? Let's say, for example, right? That I'm thinking... Think about the family structure in an animal's life. Like, the piglets will leave the mother at some point. No, they'll get taken from their mother. No, no, no. I mean, and let's say if we leave them happily in peace. Okay. They will eventually go and start their own family. Oh. That's fine. That's what will happen. And the mother, then, will not even necessarily recognize the menu longer. How do you know? Like, I saw on my dog. She didn't recognize her mother five years down the line. That's fine. So the structure is different. So eventually, I don't know how it all is. Different types of animals, but let's say in a dog, it is like that. She didn't even know. They don't recognize her anymore. They're proud at each other when they met each other five years down the line. So... So what are you trying to get out here? That makes it okay to shoot animals in the head? No, no, no. I just mean that the consciousness is different. I'm just saying we are different. We don't want to suffer pain. We don't want to feel pain. Agree. Agree. But shouldn't we focus on what we have similar versus what we have different? Because that's just discrimination. No, no, no. Yeah, but... You're saying, you're making them draw an arbitrary line. They're different, so it's okay to kill them. Okay? It's not okay to kill them. It's okay to kill these animals, not these animals. No, no. I don't know enough about family structures and everything in the kingdom. So what is your justification for shooting an animal in the head? For no reason. What is your justification for that? What makes you think it's okay? As long as that particular animal has had a happy life at the beginning and all through the life and has not suffered till the very end, basically shot in the head without basically being dead without feeling pain. Okay. That is actually... That's okay. That is actually... So you understand that scenario? That sounds really... You know, what would be the word for that in any other scenario? In any other scenario. Oh, well, let's put it in a murderous context. Like, you mean a human context? A human context. So that you want to... They had a happy life and I went and shot them in the head. Well, as I just said... What would the judge say to you about that? Of course, that's not true. You're on it. They had a happy life. That is... Yeah, but then, of course, but that is why we're humans. That's because of our rules. You understand it creates a double standard. I'm not sure about that. We want a certain... We want to live in a certain way. We want to live in freedom. Yeah. In peace. Yes. Well-being. Yes. We don't want to be enslaved. Yeah. We expect that trigger for us. True. But it's okay for us to raise these animals for our own use so we can shoot them in the head and chop up their bodies and eat them for no reason. So that is a double standard. We would cry out for help. See, but we come again back to the very initial question. Moral values, moral standard, like morality and consciousness. Consciousness. Consciousness. If you think animals don't deserve to be treated cruelly, you're admitting that they have some kind of moral value to you. Yeah, see, I think the terminology... Otherwise... I struggle with the terminology because I'm not quite sure whether we're on the same line. I just think that... You think that they're below us. It's okay to raise them and shoot them in the head and eat their bodies for no reason when we have alternatives. We can buy other things. We can eat other things. I absolutely agree that humanity we are... You would still choose to cause, let's just say, no suffering, but a bullet in the head to an animal. You would still choose that even though there's other options. You're telling me that you would still choose to shoot a pig in the head when they want to live, even though we can have all these plant-based alternatives that that's your option. I know. I know. Plus it's healthier. I know what you're saying. Their whole life is not their whole life. Pigs are here at six months old. Oh, yeah, babies, yeah. Does not live in a whole life of happiness, is it? It's not. There's two babies at six months old. Their most pigs are killed at around six months old, unless they're south, which are mothers, then they're killed at around four years old. And is that... I mean, here again, I don't know... Most of your meat you eat is from these farms that are showing you. Yeah. So would you... You know what I'm trying to say? The majority of meat people get from these farms. But even in the best scenario, in this dream world farm, shooting an animal in the head is still wrong because you wouldn't accept that on yourself. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy. Do you understand why it's hypocritical, though? See, I don't... Because you're saying it's okay for them but not okay for me. And they're living beings. That's feel pain and suffering, value their families just as much as you do. Yeah, see, that is where we differ, I guess, but you didn't shoot by yourself. Oh! Yes, very interesting. You would shoot... By the way, by the way, I thought about that a lot of times and I thought several times ooh, I wouldn't do that. I certainly would not slit a throat of a sheep. Why not? Because that, I think... Why not? Yeah, because I think that is quite a cool way to go. No, but animals are below us. No, no, no, no. No, no, no. But you know what I'm saying? If you think it's okay to shoot an animal in the head... And now, misinterpreting my words. You're now put... Because I only was talking about the... The way? In a second. Which is... Which is a second. But that's not where you get your meat from, right? I... Yeah, but no, no. Wait, wait. I'm... I'm talking now about the ideal farm that my mother goes to. But that's not the scenario in your life right now, is it? And I'm saying that is wrong. So what you're doing right now is wrong. What I'm doing right now... By your own moral standard, what you're doing right now is wrong. Yes. Would you like a card? But... But... Okay, okay, okay, okay. We'll just leave that there. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Give us a hug. I really enjoyed that conversation. Yes, it was very nice. Okay, bye bye. I hope that gave you something to think about. I know, like, you can debate that sort of things, but just think of it from the animal's position. I see what you mean. And I see... It's unnecessary, you know? She has a wheel. Look how healthy she looked at your vegan. She always tries my food and she's like, oh, that's not that bad. Exactly. That's nice. It's not. So it's vegan ice cream. And your homemade ice cream tastes so much worse than my vegan ice cream. No, no, no, wait, wait, wait. I have to say one thing. Your husband... I loved it. Her husband... You loved it? Her husband said my ice cream tastes better than yours. Yeah, yeah, of course I tried it. I hope you can ice cream at home. I hope you can cheese at home. I hope you can vegan it. What's your name? Annika. Annika. Thank you so much for that conversation. What's your name, sir? My name's Joey. What's your role with this? What's in these documentaries? You love them? Oh, yeah, that's certainly a good one. Thank you so much. Bye-bye.