 events and so on and something that I noticed in the talk and in the comments I got after the talk Was that we're actually not so bad at getting People into the project, but we're we seem to be losing quite a few on the way one thing that's kind of made me think so was the higher number of Female package maintainers and a low number of WN developers because apparently a whole lot of women decide That's actually worthwhile to Learn how to how to package to get their packages into Debbie and maintain them But then they don't do this last step and become Debbie and developers. So There seems to be as Said in the talk there seems to be a number of reasons that keeps them away And also something else that I think goes in the same direction. I also came up after the talk was that we had some feedback from people who Serve or served in the mentor program saying that they they actually did get assigned mentees but There seemed to be a high number of mentors who just basically lost their mentees along the way like they dropped out They lost contact Communication died down and something like that So I thought it might be a nice idea to use this time now to Try and find ideas How we can not only like lure people into the project, but actually keep them at it like to to make sure that if Say something Is not right with the mentor mentee relationship or maybe they they feel overtaxed or maybe there's a there are different Expections like they are looking for reassurance, but what they get is technical advice all such stuff I thought it might be a good idea to to collect some ideas how to More closely hold on to the people that we actually have do you think that's a feasible idea Not if you do Yeah, my garden just mentioned that the mentor about the mentor program which is mentioned We also have very little information about it So yeah, I'm just relaying what's what she's saying Okay, so We we should advertise it more is what do you mean or what she means? Possibly Hi, yeah Okay, um Yeah, I mean I don't know from what time the feedback that I got about the mentoring program Was whether it was like two years ago or two weeks ago so Yeah maybe Yeah, maybe maybe the mentoring program is a good point to start because it's quite well defined I mean people do approach us by by their own accord They say well like like to get a mentor they're assigned a mentor and then I think the usual thing that Entoses that a few males Are exchanged of a very general nature saying well, so I'm your mentor I'm this and that person and this is what I do and the mentee then introduce introduces herself and Then I think often you already get to a dad stop because then the mentor says so what do you want to know and The mentee is very much like oh I don't know anything you know like Davion and so maybe it would be It would be a good idea to give the mentoring program a bit more more structure, you know to So that it's not actually left to Mentor and the mentee to come up with a kind of program or agenda that they want to follow Marga's talking still on ISE she mentioned that Basically, none of us knows what's going on with the mentor program except the mentor admin so She says basically if I understand well that we need to advertise more the mentor program inside I would say ourselves or those people who feel involved in the men woman Yeah, I think so far really the only place that the mentoring program is mentioned is the web pages The Debbie and women web pages and then we usually always like mentioned it when somebody doesn't talk So yeah, I guess Advertising it a bit more is never a bad thing to do so But yeah I said like in this particular session my issue is not so much getting people in but keeping them you're like I guess one of the issues came up the other day is a thing that's actually a more general problem in Debbie and so I Mean it came up in terms of the mentors program of people Maybe we should be more actively pushing people but it's not even true actually in if you look at the expectations of new people with regard to the nm process for example Yeah, people expect if they arrive and haven't read yet read all the documentation They kind of assume that there'll be somewhere where they sign up, but then someone says you're ready to do this You're ready to do this. Why don't you go and do this next? And they again they expect that if they've got a sponsor their sponsor I mean lots of people assume that maybe their sponsor in a m should be kind of the same thing and guiding them and pushing them and so on of I don't think it's necessarily realistic for us to go and reprogram and em and so on to do that because there's there are reasons Why it's a bit different But maybe some of that is what people are looking for in a mentoring thing as well I mean obviously it's easy and it's weak We kind of easier it's easier for us to find a mentor for a specific technical topic because Exactly, you know who it should do it and you can pair them up sensibly and so on. Yeah, I guess it's really one of the main problems that that kind I currently see in the mentoring program is that They I mean the mentor basically agrees to be a mentor because you see here She thinks that oh sure I can ask a few I can answer a few questions about Debian and packaging and The mentees are actually expecting much more. They actually are expect some kind of agenda or program or something and Then like use I think the usual problem is that the mentee doesn't really manage to come up with questions of her own And the mentors I mean usually the people who sign up as mentors are the people who sign up for everything So they are really busy people and they really cannot sit down and Come up with a curriculum or something So it might be worthwhile to maybe provide them with one that they can go through with their mentees or something Speaking as a mentor who has had almost the exact experience that you described I would appreciate something like that and we have that for NM And that is one of the ways that people get get Sort of moved along through NM because we actually do have a set program of questions that should be asked And and I I think it makes it easier on the a I've never been an AM But it seems like it makes it more straightforward for the AM to know what's coming next and what they should be doing next if they Aren't sure so I would appreciate that having something like that Maybe could one of the the people taking notes just write down that We should try to come up with a kind of like mentoring curriculum In the time to come Well, I don't know how really mentor program works, but Maybe the people are rejected. I mean mentors Because there are people that don't even read documentation or man pages and Then who wants to tell them everything well Maybe to have program that says well not specifically but First thing what matters should do just give the reference to read this read that and when someone doesn't do that one What should you do what read them? Well, of course them or what? Yeah, of course But I guess yeah, it's I'm sorry. I don't think we should push people around. Why don't you be UDD or be did? There's pushing and there's motivating Yes, maybe just I mean we don't want to bully anybody into being a DD obviously yes, but there's There are there are those shy people who hope that Who are just sit there hoping that somebody will push them saying why don't you become a DD and then they think well I don't know and you ask them again and actually they want to So I think it's a it's a it's a thin line. I mean we don't want to bully anybody into anything But I do think that there's a whole lot of people who could maybe benefit from a little shop I think Enrico has been also Yeah, I wanted to relay again from ISE someone with name with the nickname Bertha gas Mentioned that an ID could be to have some Debian women's prints to gather women interested in Debian share knowledge and motivation And it might help joining the project or something maybe also adding my own IDs This mentor mentee stuff could maybe with meeting in a real life something like that could work But I don't know if possible. I mean we did have we did have back squashing parties in in the Very past past we did have like Debbie and women back squashing parties But they were virtual Hi, I'm Enrico from the new maintainer process, which has been mentioned a few times And it during this conversation about mentors it occurred to me that that there's some I Feel there's some fundamental problem because in mentors were basically establishing a relationship in which somebody from Debbie and spoon feeds or something people who are not and Maybe that's a misrepresentation of mentors But it's this kind of direction of the flow of information sort of proactively pushed towards people Which is not how they've been works in any other of its parts So if somebody joins Debian in that way it doesn't this set the wrong expectation about what's going to happen next and And and another thing is that we're used to think of people joining Debian because they need to or they like to they have some Specific thing in Debian they'd like to work on because you know that means a duocracy and so on and and there's so many groups one can join and Well, there's the Debian mentors project for packaging. There's web team and and so on and so what I wonder if if Debian mentors could have The the the job of helping people find the right group To work with in Debian. It's like what do you like? Then okay, so you like this. Why don't you get in touch with that group and say you'd like to help and Teach people how to say they'd like to help and maybe give support when they reply They get is not what they expect and explain why kind of mentor into Into the social in working of Debian because we cannot teach how Debian works I believe it's similar to teach people what Tao is Debian works in a similar way So but helping people find a place in Debian They're comfortable with and then that place is usually perfectly able to do the rest of the technical mentoring. I I think I Partially agree with that like I've had the same thing where I really just pointed a lot of people to respect to the respective groups saying well If you want to do if you want to become a translator, please join the respective mailing list to say hi and so but That's also a group of people who basically Approach you and they want to join Debian and you say okay What field of Debian would you like to work in and what they say is oh, I don't know wherever I'm needed I just want to help, you know, they're just like this super undirected just wanting to help kind of attitude and So they don't have this particular thing They don't have a beef with a certain package that they wanted when a C taking care of or a certain language That's not supported well enough. They just see Debian as a whole and they want to be a part of it and they They they want to help in any way they can so basically what they do is like here You woke up at you woke up to front desk and you say I've got some spare time What can I do for you and then they'll just send you on an errand or tell you give you something to do And that's actually something that does not work in the Debian project There's not but there's a front desk, of course, but there's no place that you can just go and say I'd like to help. This is my set of skills. What can I do? Also with these people usually they're not yet programmers or packages and so I Need I feel that we maybe need to have an answer for those people as well I mean the other ones are really easy because you point them to the group Maybe you take someone from the group aside and say I've got a new one here Could you just make sure that here? She's welcomed and kind of shown the ropes but Yeah, I think those who are actually also fail or not not well fail is a hard word But don't get along well with the mentoring program are those who I don't do not have a specific task that they joined for they just want to like Help and and they don't know how so is does maybe anyone have an idea how to What to do with these people I Well, I agree that I mean a good thing is if we can point people to the right group and why did I be in though? I just point out that one thing we've done in Debian women in the past It did work to get people involved was to have some kind of mini projects that started off within the Debian woman fold so for example there was Building the acronym dictionary. I mean even think things like working on the Debian website with Debian women website itself things like this which obviously are not You don't necessarily want people to end up having that there's that only involvement in Debian Yeah, but if people are just starting off It's kind of nice if they can have something that they feel is Well, where everyone involved is trying to get other people involved and is open to this kind of mentoring approach and so on I Mean, it's a bit easier than compared to just saying I don't know the Colonel team really needs some help go and work on them with going work with them Maybe it would be good to collect a set of thin issues or things to do that that can then be tackled by a mentor and the man and the mentee so if the mentee says, oh, I don't know the mentor has a set of things to to choose from or to pick from and can say well, why don't we tackle this and Try try ourselves on that. I Think you need to do both have a list of short task, but also Define the larger part of the project where the mentee will join because well all teams could have sort of small task to join but Usually it requires quite some monitoring to start and you don't want to invest time if that person is only going to do That task and then go away That's at least my own experience. I tried travel times to give small task to people and say, oh help me They sent a first patch and Never show up again and I did spend several rounds of emails exchange with those people to get them to produce that proper patch so maybe it would really be worth to like have a kind of like Practice projects that are rather debut and women internal maybe even like the acronym dictionary So that people can like try themselves on it and if they feel that for example Translation really is their thing or web pages WML whatever and they they felt they they've tried this and they've been somewhat successful and then we After that we can then maybe point them on to the teams and say well Oh, I would love if you could prepare trainee and give them back to me when Well, I mean we don't we don't I mean we don't want our mentees to you know get get some kind of Bad reputation or something like oh, no, it's a div in women mentee. Oh, so So, I mean we're doing everyone a favor if we do train them properly before sending them out into the teams where They are actually expected to work quick and work well and all that so maybe we could We could just take down in the minutes that we might Try and find a few projects or collect a few projects that Could serve well as a selection of things to do With a mentor and a matty Yeah, I know another remark from I see from Marga for people who don't know Marga. This is Margarita, Monterola She's mentioning about these mini project stuff etc That yeah, that's good idea, but it always needs someone to lead them and otherwise it fails Well, yes, of course of yours. I'm sorry to come back and I know it's but that such is the nature of virtual communication It's not real time Yeah, but well, I guess yes such a such a mini project always should be tackled with a mentor on the side That that for sure and maybe it will also be a good idea to like repeating times contact the mentors and the mentees Maybe even individually asking like so, how's it going? Are you still at it? Are you? Are you getting along well is there anything that you feel is not working out? So as so that maybe I mean I'm imagining this But maybe it's it often happens that there's maybe it does happen that there's a mentee who's not happy With her mentor and doesn't really know whom to turn to and then she just goes away and so maybe if you Like every I don't know every month or every two months or something. I mean this is really a slow communication going on mostly We can just like you know, but in say hi. How's it going? Everything okay with you guys? Are you still at it something like that? You see if I can Make this a bit more readable. I'm afraid not Right so Maybe to to move on to the other topic, which is really not that far away Would be that the the ladies who are already Dabian maintainers and have so far found no use or no reason or no motivation or no courage or whatever to Go the whole way and become Dabian developers Do we I mean maybe the first question should be do we consider this a problem at all or do we say? As long as they are contributors We don't care if they are maintainers or translators or developers And we really just want them to become developers because that's such a nice easy number to count and such a Such a good way such an easy way to show success. I mean if that's the case I'm okay with that if we say as long as they contribute we are happy but My personal feeling is as I said in the talk that being a DD is not only like carrying this kind of like status laden Dabian batch on your breast it also means like to really identify with the project to become a citizen of the project to to vote to Propose wards to and all that to elect a leader So in my view it's something that you should do but if you as a group tell me no as long as they contribute you're fine I'm fine with that also. I just want to I'm basically affirm what you what you've said. I'm DKG. I do think that the That people can contribute and can significantly influence our culture because we are open enough without being an official Debian developer, but speaking as someone who plans to participate in future votes. I would really like it if the electorate was More balanced in terms of who's actually using the project And I and so I actually do think that it is it's important for people to continue through the process and make it to Debian developers status other Thoughts on that or Yeah, this is this is something I really think is important and this is a reaction to your talk of the other day when you you mentioned about being or not being a DD and Several women in the project are doing very good job without being a DD. I think we are really she these women should really consider be becoming DD just Becoming a kind of role model or you know Even for us to be able to say that we have that many women the female DD That I think this is much more important than we think it's well I'm a bit I'm bitten I'm a bit in two minds about this because I really don't want to you know Like introduce any kind of like to class society like there are the DD's and then there are those who just Contribute and they're not like proper DD's and stuff like that So I'm trying to be careful not to make it sound that way But as said I do feel that for for any contributor becoming a DD is actually a beneficial thing In in many dimensions not least I mean For the purpose of the Dabian women project It's just a female contributor has so much more visibility if she carries that at Dabian org Just I mean it's maybe it's not such a bitch such a difference for the actual contributor, but for us as a project It's just you know if when you see the Dabian people conversing among themselves Maybe and you see all those with the Dabian dot org addresses. It's just nice to see a few female names pop up every now and then So I am just I totally agree with that about a visibility I Myself as I said in the talk I Didn't play yet and I Think before I really didn't care about that. I didn't I really felt that I Contribute and I don't need to be a DD And I always felt that I was I'm gonna say Recognize it for that But now I see that well Sometimes people approach me on ISE Woman because they know that I I am a woman and and then they don't know if I am the dear not But maybe if I was at the D. I will have more I Now I see that It gives you authority. I mean we can we can name it that it's yeah But it's not only the authority, but I'm pretty I'm starting to figure out that Maybe because it was not my case, but maybe there are some woman that really Feel more comfortable talking with other woman. Yes, and they talk with me because that they know that I am a woman and It's my experience that being a DD And talking to lots of girls and women of all ages who somehow in one way or another consider joining the project I've had the experience that as a DD they really if I say something they really take this as Coming from the project. So if I say listen, I am a WN developer. I've been for a couple years and I can tell you it's fine It's okay. It's a great job to do They're ready to believe me because Yeah, I'm speaking from my own Well, I don't know. Maybe if you're not and you say really you can become a DD. It's it's a great thing to be They might not be as convinced or I don't know Could you post that to penny? She's been on it for a while. I Just wanted to say maybe we have a social problem here, which is so you said let's name it authority Maybe someone then feel that that's not actually something that they're justified to have So I think it could be that Many women that could or should become DD's don't because they don't feel that it's justified because maybe they only have a few packages Or they're not as involved as they want to and they don't feel like they really deserve that authority or status Well, this is the point where we point to the non-uploading DD's of course again Saying that You really don't have to have that many packages to to become a DD like I think I've got four Which is like really not that much and three of them are super tiny. Yeah, I agree I mean, I'm not saying I think this is right But I think it's a it's a conception that's maybe in the make amongst women and technologies So you mean like there's a there's a conception that people feel you need to be worthy of DD Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I think I guess one of really one of the things we need to do as the Dabin women project is to really really debunk the DD status a Bit well I also think there's another thing on this yes, the Mission of the DB and women project is to motivate women to contribute more and to make them more friendly in general But then again, well being a DD is a commitment Many people want to contribute but don't want to be so committed. So, I mean, I'm not saying Let's stop motivating people to become DD but not everybody will Well, that's why I always have this thing and when I do a Dabin women talk I always make a point of pointing out that Dabin women is not about Affirmative action. It's not about getting as many women shoved into DD status as possible As long as their packages meet some minimum amount of quality So he yeah, when we talked about worthiness to be a DD earlier I think we should remember that this is not just not just a women-specific issue Francis I know for a fact that Jonas Smidegard's Beca only became a DD after somebody told him yes, you're worthy of it And you should should go forward and I think if we if we try to make this clear not just only to women But to anyone it will benefit both genders and that will be a good thing It's definitely a problem that people think I'm not worthy of this And it's well, it's it's been one of the nice qualities I think of the Dabin women project that all the things we did have always we did them for women But in the end they always turned out benefiting the project as a whole so The if be it the mentoring program or the stuff in the week II or the IRC tutorials We aim them at women, but we always have at least half of the attendees being male. So I think Me such such people be the male or female would probably benefit from that either way Well, you say people think that they are not worthy Well, it's because maybe they know the amount of their knowledge I mean, I don't know what what is what do we supposed to know to be a DD? I mean I have one baggage. Oh, yes, I want to be DD. Of course. I wanted to be DD First time I installed Debian Oh, I want to be DD so much. But of course I cannot and I still cannot because when someone come to me and says, oh, you're a DD please help me with this And I said, oh, but I don't know that That's actually not something that you need to do. So It's totally okay, one of the few one of the things that you say most often as a DD is I'm sorry, that's not my package because There's there is yeah, there's this this feeling among the world that as a DD you but you're basically A Debian wizard and you can do everything But nobody can really I Mean there are the there are those DD's who do the colonel and and they are super clever Towards colonel things, but if you ask them how to change the font size in your gnome They're useless right, so All the DD's have specialties and they know they're they're competent with those And then they have things that they're really not competent with and that's totally okay Because you don't need to be an uber DD or something. You just need to be good at what you do Which is why you chose that particular topic Actually, there are two good things in this for one You make people aware that you're not one of those who know everything And make them aware that even DD's are only human and that they that they don't Need to feel shy to address deviant developers Because there are some kind of clever person they also lack Knowledge in certain fields On the other hand you could try to not just respond Sorry, don't know anything about it But to help them find get to the right person who has knowledge about this area And usually DD are more connected to other people's And know Where to where to send people along if such questions came up But I think actually that Carolina raised a very good point About people asking themselves like have I achieved an amount of knowledge that qualifies me to run to apply for the new maintainer process Now obviously there's no simple answer It's not like you can give out a questionnaire saying if you can answer 10 questions with yes You can you should run for the new maintainer process Still maybe we should address that question somehow Maybe in the Debian women FAQ or in the new maintainer FAQ if there is one or something like that and just Try to answer that question somehow saying well You can you so you consider becoming a DD Um ask yourself this is there a field of Debian that you've been working in actively and continuously um Are there people who have recognized your work as beneficial to the project or as useful um If so do apply And I would really say to to to do this on such an abstract level Like not do you speak three programming languages, but Have you have you done a kind of contribution that's been useful and have you done it for a while? Maybe a year or something. I don't know Um francesca can somebody give her a microphone. I'm sorry you daniel you wanted to say something Sorry Uh, I think that another important thing about that is Is that people who work teams or so on with Someone who is already not a DD need to Try to push her or him when it's time to to then and process because uh I became an DD only because Ronda and zobella and people with who I work Pester me all day for some weeks I understood that I could became a DD and I was worthy. It's the same. I mean I've like I became a DD like three years ago. Basically. I was also uh Forcefully motivated Um So I did apply and I've never looked back like I don't regret I was at the time I thought oh, I don't know maybe in a year or two But then they kind of pushed me and I went for it And I never thought I joined early or I'm not knowledgeable enough or anything like that. So do do apply do apply Um, I just wanted to point out that we've been talking a lot about people feeling like they need to be worthy to contribute to the Project and there's sort of two points that I want to make on that one is that from the new maintainer process itself I learned a lot. Oh, yeah, exactly So that means that I there was a lot that I didn't know before the new maintainer process And obviously there's still a lot that I don't know And so I think we should make it clear that the application to the new maintainer process Is not oh, I'm already good with everything that's ready for the project You'll learn as part of it. And then the second thing is that in terms of worthiness What you I really think that what you said about is there a field that I've contributed to for a while The interesting part there is for a while Are people committed to the project? In my mind, that's what makes you ultimately worthy of being a dd Is that you're committed to the project and you want to see the project succeed And you're going to figure out how to do whatever you need to figure out how to do To make that happen And so stressing instead the commitment to the project instead of any particular grandiose goal of Absolute technical mastery. I think it's important to stress the commitment instead of the technical Yeah, I mean it's when I when I did this silly thing with Alex on Dibion day we did For a reason Pick a year we said that we should like have have this ending that kind of tells people What you do what you need to do because it's the usual question when you talk about being a non uploading dd People afterwards approach you and they ask you what to do what they have to do for it So we picked a year because we thought it would be a sensible thing um And I guess it's really something Roughly in that in that region to really show that you are like there's a kind of trustworthy continuous A dedication to the project and that we do need definitely Um, I just want to I want to say two things. One is that um There's a buff tomorrow that I'm helping lead called debbing for shy people Which is about these issues that I hope to see some of you at also and second is to say that Uh Since this is a debbing woman specific buff. I wonder if debbing woman has any particular goals that it concretely wants to achieve in the next Concrete time period so then I can figure out how I can help best Help it achieve that Well, we don't we don't have numbers like we want to have 20 dds by 2000 something um I guess we're really just happy for everybody who joins but we've got a comment from irc Yeah from from irc. It is suggested. Uh, I read it as it was written Please make the silent women in the room talk before the talk ends And uh, someone added Um What one thing do you think would help most question around the room or something to make those silent people So how about that? How how about the ladies in the room? Uh, who have not yet said something would just really quickly introduce themselves And say hi. We are very close to the finish. I know I get I get big gestures from the back But I cannot parse them Are you telling me I should go on? Are you Let's just do it, you know, they they they will cut us off but until then that's you know Revolution and all that just introduce yourself shortly and wave to the camera Wave to the camera I'm a carol. I'm working with debon in about Four or five years. I will be there and try people both And It's a little bit difficult to me to speak with all of you. Look at me Please yeah, and I think that the worst thing about I can't I think that I can't apply yet. I want to one day but I think that I mean not to work yet I don't well, what have you been doing in these five years? I mean, that's a really long time. Yeah Yeah, so what do you do like translations or duck? I work in translations in the localization for Brazilian portuguese I work in the ttp And I work in our local user group debon you can lose user group and I work in the events team in brazil We have a lot of events big events in the south of brazil where I live And I work in the booth there Because of the time feel Comfortable this year to help look in the merchandise team And but that's such a whole lot. I mean May I introduce you to francesca who has been in the exact same situation? And ran for dd and got a dd and maybe you too just want to get together After the talk, I mean you no no you must you must Thank you very much also for the one problem Now this year I decided to adopt my first package and I'm doing it at night so Maybe in the end of this year or 2000 Before the end of the world I will become a dd Oh, that's okay. You can just introduce yourself if that's all There's a lady sitting next to you. Maybe she would like to see hi real quickly Hi My name is monica and in here is dunedna Where my english is horrible And I've been packaging some packages since I think Months, I don't know how much month how many months maybe six or seven I'm trying to I was one of one of the girls that I don't know where to help I want to help but I don't know where and I think I have finally I I am Trying to help in qa uploads now solving some books bugs and also in Open stream map team that is a micro team But I like and I don't know why I don't apply. Maybe I'm scared of the commitment or Well That's it I'm sorry. I know many people would like to introduce themselves But we have a Real request from the people doing the video work to finish the sessions of time We already run over that limit So Well, thank you. Maike and thank you to everybody and please continue this This mutual introduction and well this great work you've been doing I don't know if you have some final words to close with again. What some final words you can you want as a coordinator to Everybody who didn't say something do feel free to approach me or francesca and rica will really anybody in here All the time we're here all week I guess is what I want