 All right, I'm excited to be with Alice Carolina today So she is founding a movement called the ethical move and When she reached out to me and I looked at the web, so I'm like, okay. Yeah, we're gonna be doing things together I'll just well Carol Alice I'm gonna let you you know say a lot about yourself well first of all hello, thanks for being here Thank you. Yeah, so when I looked at this, I'm like, ah, this is for those of you who have ever heard of B Corp you know sort of the standard for businesses to Do things that are better for like the environment and for society etc. B Corp certification is quite quite well-known popular among Sort of green or sustainable businesses now and like ah, this is kind of like the the future B Corp of the authentic marketing ethical marketing industry So it's exciting for me to be able to interview you Alice before before you get too big for me to interview Yeah, let's hope that one day You'll turn down my interviews because you're too big that that's let's hope we get there Doesn't know I always go to this one and say hey look I was one of the first to see the vision so welcome welcome and Let's help people about the ethical move. You know, you're you're we're just starting out here and You know, I've been essentially trying to to bring authentic marketing to the world for since at least 2015 2014, you know, I've been kind of kind of Raising the banner for this but you're doing this in a very organized way now With a you know future, you know seal of pledge of approval seal of approval kind of thing So I'm really excited to hear Well, there's a lot of ways we intersect with our values, etc But maybe you could start with what kind of inspired you to get going with the ethical move Yeah, well, thank you. That's a it's funny. You should mention B corp. That's actually one of the one of the actual inspirations for it So when I was 18 This is sort of the long Like long back moment in time. I lived in Bolivia for a few months in La Paz And I'm originally from Switzerland and it was quite the culture shock Which I didn't really recognize at the time But the thing that actually really dug deep sort of into my soul was the insane poverty and the insane inequality That were it was visceral it was every day It was in your face in your every sense was basically inundated by this Sheer just injustice and we had already in my family would already already talked about Various sort of ways in which the world was working or not working. So I definitely had a keen eye for it as well already But I kind of feel like that was a catalyst for me thinking, okay, now we need to do something. I need to do something I had already we traveled to other places before where there was, you know, inequality in your face But nothing really like living in it and breathing it every day And so I kind of went on a quest to find the best relief work organization that I could join Or, you know, some way to Join the efforts in whatever way I could And I kept falling short because I kept feeling like well if we build that well Do we know what's actually going to happen after if we just bring a bunch of rice? Is that really going to be a sustainable solution anyway? So I kept, you know spinning my wheels and not really finding a place for myself And then now years later, I entered the online world with my business Specifically branding, which obviously has a very strong marketing You know attachment so I all of a sudden saw this just crazy crazy Use of tactics and all of these ways that that people are trying to shove Products down people's throats and services in ways that I thought wait, that's actually really not Anyway, it just didn't seem like it none of it felt good And it all felt like well, we know this don't we like we know that this is not good, right? And so where where the link is between the two was because I Went and studied graphic design back in Switzerland before I even went to Libya and I studied manipulation. We had my mother teach this communication and so Has taught communication all our life So we had that conversation in our house in our family all the time about how you communicate what what is the sender and what is the receiver's Responsibility and how do we how do we connect and what's important in terms of relationship? between the two and you know feedback loops and any sort of tactics and What was fascinating to me? It kept going with Learning how to use the right color for the right, you know, if you use red for this thing or green for this thing That's how you can influence people I just got sick of it and part of why I ended up in Bolivia is because I actually couldn't believe in it anymore I couldn't believe in being part of the cheat code, you know being a designer that would then Make things that would persuade people to buy based on tricking the mind So years later, I went and studied interior design. I kind of got disillusioned by the whole industry so I left it came back from a different angle and Studied interior design because I wanted a 3d aspect to Design it wasn't that I wanted to be an interior designer, but what I learned was in commercial Studies how to you know, where to put the shelves so they're not too far apart not too close together and what heights do things go? Oh, yeah, and then I did this whole marketing positioning communication course well certificate college as well Where I'm jumping over the place and noticing just all the places where I studied manipulation to the eighth degree like where What are a point of sale? Products, where do they stand? How how does it feel? What is the scent in a place? What is the music? Geotagging being in a bus and and and seeing and advertising for the I don't know shop That's right outside the bus store the bus stop All of this combined just made me feel like I I don't want to have any part of it And I can't believe how much we're just being influenced on Every level at all all the time and when I enter the online world. Yeah, go on. Yeah, I was gonna say I'm getting chills from from hearing you say these things because You know to me, it's it's really the age-old idea that You know that the powerful are always trying to control the masses And if they can control the masses and by they I mean, you know what just like you said communication Right all of us at one time or another are in that position of power I mean even in a single relationship even in the single conversation for example, and it's like it's like the you know The the the wealthy and the powerful They they know hey if I could if I can use advertising or Manipulation to control the masses then I can keep my power and grow my power and and etc. And and of course, you know the marketers learn from those tactics and strategies and think well That's how they got there. So that's how we are. That's what success success is to become rich and powerful And so well, of course, we're gonna learn these tactics so that we can also become, you know, rich and powerful without Without questioning that Goal, right without questioning what this means But yeah, absolutely or what what is actually the end goal if it's not success Isn't it like health relationship family? Maybe success needs to be redefined so that it's not about accumulation of wealth and control, you know But but yes can success be you know, so it's so interesting that just yesterday I was I was listening to a podcast by By Andrew Yang, he was one of the presidential candidates Here in these here in the States and he's he has a new podcast now and he was interviewing Jack Dorsey the founder of Twitter and Square You know the guy with a lot of power But but Jack Dorsey is actually one of the more mindful ones because he he said he said he said he said I think Everything is connected and so if someone else is suffering eventually Either I'm suffering now or eventually I will be suffering to yes And I was like, that's it. It's like that's what success means is to see the connections and say no it has to be everybody It needs to be on the path toward yeah health and well-being, but but please you were you were just about to start talking about the online No, the catalyst I guess was once I had like I had learned all of those tactics and I knew I recognized them to be unhealthy And most of all what I knew about them was that The link back to my story about Bolivia was the inequality Doesn't just happen. It's not something that is doomed or the way that it is forever inequality happens At the moment where we don't care about like we were just talking about don't care about the end part like the person at the very end of the chain I suppose and Not just like Beyond fair trade beyond B Corp I feel like there is a link missing which I actually personally see as the linchpin which is why I started this to begin with the linchpin of Consumerism let's say as a whole to me is the fact that we are completely addicted and We are completely in a cycle of addiction with what we want what we buy what we need what we think we need The feet the existential dread of not having enough scarcity all of those, you know Mindset questions around success and abundance and all of these things. What does it actually mean? We were born to want in this society since I'm assuming. I don't know I think in the 20s they first started with proper psychological tactics So basically a few generations now have been completely inundated by wants and needs that don't actually exist and So Where where we marketers come in is we create those ones and needs it's not that they are intrinsic It's not when I I live on a little island right now. I don't see a store for clothes I don't want to buy them. I don't even you know if I'm in downtown Vancouver I will want to I don't know. Well, that's a cool coat. That's it's just obvious like it's I've studied this all my life and I cannot absolutely cannot keep myself from Wanting things when I see them or being influenced by this even though I know exactly that 999 is a turn price and it is just there to you know, make it look cheaper I still fall for it I can't my I can't I don't have enough control around brain because we're bypassing it with my king And that is where the ethical move started when I saw online that all of these tactics were being used And like in the sleazyest old-timey way possible and it wasn't even covert Like it was being caught like you're supposed to do this. This is the right thing like you need to make your price 297 instead of 300 because that's gonna make more sales and yes I agree it will because you're literally bypassing the functioning conscious part of someone's brain But what I'm arguing is if you can't sell your product at 300 bucks What's the point should the product even exist? Maybe you need to go do some soul searching, you know That is a really good and that's back to like what you were saying about about The actual definition of what is important And this is why the ethical move exists is because I believe the linchpin is marketing I actually think that manipulation and coercion and persuasion is Is is the linking factor that we don't take into consideration because it is seen as something good and Honestly, whenever I I have people sending the articles all the time. Oh, look, here's some more tactics Here's some more things. I'm like, yeah, and they're always touted as positive And I just can't just based on my history. I can't believe it I just can't be with it and so eventually I Got so fed up with it after like two three years in business maybe more I just had it. I felt like, you know what? I this is it's not good and I can be as outspoken as I want but unless people have a reason or a benefit or a Maybe not even necessarily a benefit, but unless they have a goal to push for they will not Change things. Well, like you said, well, I mean the point of this I mean what why I brought in B Corp, right? Unless they have a standard, you know, unless they have exactly they have clear guidelines and they understand why the guidelines are there and the guidelines are kind of like I Think for several groups of people. I mean for one group people, it'll be enlightening like oh, I didn't even know Exactly. No that for for example for for me a foot for B Corp. Oh, I didn't even know that businesses could be run in this way I just thought that businesses were just naturally polluting and naturally back for society or whatever Oh, I didn't know that's like for one group people sat and another group was like, you know what? I've been wanting to do that But I've been scared because no one else is doing it But now there's a bunch of people doing it So now I'm gonna join and we'll be stronger together, you know, and then for and then for a third category I imagine it's like people who are like profiting off of manipulation. They're like, you know now We have to try to try to be better, you know and well and yeah, I do think it's funny I also think what we what we forget Sometimes is the role of the consumer in it like our responsibility to the people that we're making things for or That worse, you know creating our services for our consumers are literally Inundated by our choices and tactics So if we say we care about our people and we want to help people and you know all those vague big picture visions That people have I sorry. I just want people to get a vision that means something, you know Everybody wants to help people but if you say that if that's your vision how on earth do you justify? tricking our beautiful minds That to me that doesn't it doesn't register to me It just seems like and if you don't know like you said there's tons of people that just don't know a countdown is something That creates urgency which is a tactic which is bad in my opinion, you know, that's where we put the stake in the ground You know, we say that it's not a good thing. It's um, I mean, I mean the foundation of it is awareness, right? Like mindfulness. Yep, and it's like without the mindfulness of how is my system being influenced when I see this and Then and then do I like that kind of influence? Do I? Is it is it taking my free will away from me or giving me more agency and And if it's taking away agency from me in a way that I don't you know that I don't like Am I am I gonna do that to other people and it's like that just connection people just don't see that connection And that's why you're bringing this you're bringing this forward and say wait a sec, you know notice what's happening Yeah, notice that it's not gonna create a better world and and this whole thing I often talk about how People forget people people usually we think well. Oh, this is a means to an end like I'm doing this So that I can help people Like I'm I'm doing this yeah, so that I can that they can be helped But we forget like if we really dig into the means in the end, it's like a lot of times we realize wait a second the means Yeah, is actually What's creating a world and the ends like you might never ever get to the end, but the Right the process is always happening. Yeah, it's like how we do things is everything Absolutely, it's kind of like I mean, this is very dramatic, but let's say starting a war so we can have peace You know, it's that that idea of Yes of what I don't actually as a brander You don't need any of that if you have Some if you have some sort of how can I say this if you know who you are and you know what you create and you and you create it well Let's say your product or your service has meaning and has value and benefits the world and benefits the people that it's meant for Then Your you will automatically Have a platform that you don't need to you don't need to trick people. It's just a fallacy It is created by the same system that tells you That you need this new beauty product because you're not pretty enough or you have lines because you're getting older You know the normal life Anyway, I could go on tons of tangents I just can't even believe how much we get inundated by By these messages of telling us we're not enough and the same thing happens in the online world with marketers telling other people how to market unethically because That's what needs to happen in order to keep the machine going Right so this whole cycle can only continue if we continue the cycle so The the influence that we have a small businesses right now online I think is growing Significantly we have numbers, but we're not we're not big corporations, but we're small and we're a lot There's a lot of us and I feel like this is sort of maybe we can at one point You know tip the scales and then all of a sudden hopefully Apple will also get off the 999 train that they're on and you know, I think Amazon has it a little bit But it's not as bad The the idea behind the ethical move was really to create Sort of well to create a badge on your website that says I market ethically I market honestly you will not get light to by me on this page or anywhere else wherever you find the badge and The reason being is that It's actually funny. I just talked to one of my contributors Caroline Who is one of your number one fans who actually was one of the main reasons why I connected with you because she loves you so much Oh, Caroline Leon. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, she's one of our Incredible. Yeah, I know right so she actually Mentioned to me that there are people who Need some sort of ground to stand on to even sell Because they feel so bad about using the tactics so they do nothing and then nothing goes out, right? So it should be empowering it should be Empowering for both sides with the end result of creating what I call a flat marketplace where we just say here's a product Here's a price. Here's the reasons Do you want it and then the other person can go okay? Let me talk to my friends. I don't know just You know or yes, actually those are exactly the justifiable conscious reasons that I would like to buy this And then we're done Yeah, and yes, it might not create the scale that we want with you know If you have a little thing a little window on a page block pop up with like Melissa bought it Jenny bought it, you know, like all those little Yeah, but also also those little pop-ups that make you go. Oh another person bought it So this must be a good product, you know, yeah, it's it's it's yeah, it's it's all that is basically engineering Yeah, the persuasion of the other mind It's like yes It's like it's like I better buy this because of all these other signals and not because of the product itself It's what I actually want and need that Have I thought about what gap I'm actually trying to fill with the thing that I you know Maybe I haven't but if this keeps popping up in my face and I can't really make that choice Yeah, so part of part of what I also want to create is actually I Have talked to b-labs to one of the person there People there and we talked about the creators of the b-corp of the b-corp. Yeah. Yeah, exactly So if all goes well, we can be part of the certification for a b-corp as well down the road Yeah, all that to say it is quite a lot of work to create a standard So it might take a bit or a lot of people either way So, yeah So tell so yeah share with us what? Those of us watching how can we get involved? You know, you've given us a bit of the vision of what's going to be possible for this. Yeah, how can we get involved? We actually have a contribute page on our website. Well, first of all pledge to the ethical move pretty simple the first pledge that we've created is Changing all your prices to round numbers Not having any charm pricing and the reason why we chose this pledge is because it is the most obvious black and white You know, this is manipulative. This is not Choose your path So pledge there we are actually currently creating a set of principles around it So it's going to take a different shape where you're actually pledging to the movement as a whole and there's a bunch There's going to be a lot of different tactics that we Suggest, you don't do anymore. There will be very blatant and obvious and clear kind of like charm pricing but they will be connected to certain things like transparency or You know, responsibility all of our values. I basically see in their little logo wheel And then there's a contribute page where we have everything from being an actual member of our team Where you take on a little part of the whole because we all can only carry so much as individuals And then there's we just started Caroline actually just started the medium publication So we are going to be wanting people to contribute with their articles and thoughts about things Then there's yeah, there's tons of ways to connect with us or just let us know your opinion Your thoughts what you see what tactics you're tired of because we we can only see our sliver of the internet We we don't know what other things are out there. I just heard about, you know, empathy Something something being a new tactic that people are touting. So anything new that you see that you feel like should be part of our knowledge base include that That's so serious. Yeah, like us, you know stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and You this is a this is a very it's a it's a huge vision. It's a long-term vision You haven't mentioned anything about a financial contribution to to the ethical move What is and I of course as a business coach, I'm always concerned about the finances of other people making sure they're sustainable So do you how are you going to sustain it a financial? Maybe you have your own work and and we can we can you know use your work or what what is what is yeah Anything want to say about that? Well currently I'm carrying any sort of of the Tech or the subscriptions or any of the things that need to happen for the ethical move just because I care about it So much that there's no other way We have thought of about a few different avenues We haven't quite reached the point where we where we sort of we're still in the like pledge phase where we Finance seems to be like a down-the-road kind of project So what we're thinking is either creating a patreon page or just start up donations just so we can actually pay the people for their time I think that is my main concern right now because the contributors that we have and that we've had have just put in so many hours And it would be really nice to be able to to at least you know Have their paid work not have to take a backseat for unpaid work And then of course, I am financing all of it at the moment. So My services. Yeah, you're your services. You do branding. Is that right? Yes, slow branding Yeah, I don't really believe in the fast. Yeah, and what's your website? Well, the ethical move first of all, I want to make sure people know It's the Ethical move Dot org and I'm just gonna yes, I'm gonna share my screen real quick so that people can see it just to kind of make a Make a branding impact there So there you go the ethical move WWE the ethical move dot org and you know, you could it's you know It's very nicely nicely built thus far actually There's the pledge right there and you know, basically changing your pride our prices from manipulation prices to round numbers Yeah, awesome, and then and then you know the contribute page has You know these different ways to to get involved. I mean right now. This is the beginning of a movement So, you know, those who those who participate right now can can really shape this quite a lot I would suggest also that you should have a have a have a Twitter presence to We have an account So if you are a Twitter pro and you want to be part of it We all don't know Twitter well enough to be able to do it well, but you have that maybe a call out Yeah, Vince. You have Facebook. You should definitely have a YouTube my recommendation. She definitely So, yeah, I think I think Podcasts as well totally, but yeah That's that's all coming that's all coming and then and then what about your own site Alice my own site is Alice Carolina calm Carolina with a K. Yep Cool, there you go. Yes. Very nice. Very nice beautiful. Wow. That's so cool. I have to check that out I haven't actually seen your site yet. So there you go greater strategy and brand all good as as with every designer I'm completely reworking it right now, but that's you know, yeah That's beautiful. It's beautiful thus far. Awesome. Well, I will put the links in the notes of the video Thank you so much for for your work and your passion. Absolutely. Thank you for your time. Yeah, that's great