 I know all of you, but I don't know you, so please say nice things about yourself. Go! After the biopart, is it? Okay, hi. My name is Sarah. I'm from Microsoft. I do developer relations for Asia Pacific. And I've only done DevRel for one year, so before that I've never touched any coding stuff before. So very new to coding developers, programming, very new to conferences. Speaking for the first time last year in December. Hello, I'm Qin Hui. I am a data engineer at the ST Engineering Data Analytics Standard. So I was at the global, I was at the CFE last year when she wrote my profile. Thanks for the talk. So I started going into conferences around two years ago. And then I thought, oh, all the speakers are very professional. Wow, very good. But then I started thinking, how do I be just like that? So by the time when you go to those tech events and stuff, you feel a lot of stress. It's just like that, very easy, you don't have to understand anything. And then I thought, oh, I have to be that level to be able to speak at a conference like that. Plus it didn't help that when I went for some events, when it's a female speaker, she gets a lot of shit. Like a lot of discriminatory shit. We will continue this particular journey. So anyway, yeah. So you hold first, hold first. Okay, so like how are you? You also review everything. Yeah, sure. So I spoke at my conference, my first conference in August. So that was in Singapore. And then after that, I spoke at my first international conference, which is actually my second time speaking in December. Thanks. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. What's going on? Hello everyone. My name is Wei. I am a web developer at Shopping. Okay, done. I appreciate conciseness. So I guess the first question is, what prompted you to start speaking? Considering like, you know, it's not, you haven't done it before. Literally, GDCFB Day. So we weren't part of GDCFB Day last year. So Microsoft wasn't, because this team didn't exist. But my team in New York was doing it. And then my teammate actually tagged me and said, like, you must submit something. That I must submit. So I was like, oh crap, okay. And then I looked around like, because if you don't quote, like, there's limited things you can submit for, right? So there was only several contacts that I could submit for, which I did. And just happened to be international. And yeah, that's how it started. But also I think, like, I think I met you very early on, like, last year, when I first started. So I just, anyhow, ping people and just salivating people. And then I did a waiting set, like, something about how international conferences don't have enough Southeast Asian representation, which is super true. And also I was getting very aware of the fact that my accent was changing to fit my team. Which is based in the US. And I was like, wait, hold on, like, actually, and then I got this whole identity crisis came out. Like, honestly, like, the way we speak shouldn't be something that we then change to fit the rest of, or, like, the US side only, because then they don't realise that they have an accent as well. But then the whole rest of the world asked us, like, let's just appear more at these conferences. So that really drove me into, like, increased representation. Just to add on to that, Deborah called my, a lot of my colleagues showed up. This is on the record, so this will be fun. We are trying to hire, and they're like, can you get her? I'm like, no, she works for Microsoft. But yeah, so she was amazing. So just letting you know. And you're right, you touched on a very interesting topic about that accent, so we will talk about that a little bit later. Yourself. Okay. So, like, after I started, after I joined my role, like, as a data engineer, and then I thought, and then, like, when I first met her at one of the past weekend panels, I think that was about, like, I think I was about, like, three, four months into my work, and then I thought, like, okay, like, now that I go to those conferences and I learn all those things, how am I good? How do I start giving a meetup talk? So actually, my goal was to give a meetup talk first. But then, like, but then, like, okay, I, like, so when she talked about, like, Robert, I was DCFP, they were like, oh, okay, I'll take note of that, and then, well, I saw her work out late, but then I realised that I could make it for the event, so I just decided to just join last minute for the event, and then, okay, so, like, at first it was really talk, like, about wanting to speak at a meetup for a start. But then, when the goal was, like, to speak at a conference, I was like, whoa, like, I only have, like, how many months of experience of the data engineer, how do I speak? How do I have a topic to speak about? So she has all those questions, like, okay, well, I can also solve questions, but is it enough? And then when you talk about the speaker, provide those things. But then, like, after that, right, like, when you have someone who suggests you a goal to try and speak at a conference, like, then you think, that you will start thinking, okay, should I try to stretch myself, and, like, you know, just try to submit for a conference, and stuff like that. So it's sort of, so that actually bothers me inside, like, such that when, like, when I actually encounter, when my team actually encounters some work problem, then I thought, hey, maybe that might be an idea. And then, like, you know, if you have already fully so much effort to solve a problem, and you find out that it's not just you who face the problem, then why not, like, share about it, and maybe, like, someone in the audience will benefit from it. So that was actually why I started submitting to a conference and accepted, so I have the choice to share my experience, and it turned out that there are a lot of people out there who also share the same problems, and they also like to see how to, like, solve the issue. Yeah. So, those of you mentioned about total domestic CFP today, I was also there last year. You're taking video from total domestic CFP today! That's actually where, I think, me and Kite might be. So yeah, but before that, how I actually started was I started organizing an internal sharing inside my company called, like, Rea Knowledgeable, which is now a meet-up, and you will see stickers over there. But when we just started, like, we were running it on a proposal basis. It's like, we shipped away from doing the lucky draw, if you find yourself lucky being chosen. So, yeah. So after we shipped over, we had, like, a lot of concerns, like, would people really propose to speak there, and should we run it, like, every other week, or should we really keep the pace making it happen every week. And then, and also we're Asians, we don't like to speak, and we got intruders syndrome, and we don't feel like feeling expertise to speak. So, every once in a while, people collectively don't want to speak at RK, so that's how I got started, myself, because I needed to fill the podium back home. Yeah, so I looked at my personal website. In the past year, I gave 13 talks on RK internally. So that's how I got started, but if we take a step back and see how I pick the topics for my talks internally or later on at the meet-up or at conferences, it's a feeling that I find something so interesting that more people need to know about. So that's probably what inspired myself the most. So I think this takes back to something that we've been emphasizing since the start of today, is speak about something that means something to you. It really does come across. So I guess that's the good for the introduction. So one of the questions is if you had attended conferences before as an attendee, how differently do you feel like to be a speaker versus being an attendee? I can say this in a capacity that I think for my personal experience is because I am a very cheap Asian person and I have never attended a conference as an attendee. I can carry heavy objects then I go on to be a volunteer. So that's not really an attendee. Then I've also done the I'll just be a speaker, that kind of thing. So I'm curious to know if you actually legit be a normal human being and attend a conference like an attendee, how different do you feel to be a speaker on stage? Or do you feel different or are you just the same? Can you talk to the other? Okay, so for me the biggest difference is probably the fact that people will speak to you instead of you speak to other people because people will see your time and they find some resemblance or maybe they got questions they want to ask you. So it's like introverts guide to network and that kind of thing because I'm very introverted I normally don't start a conversation and that is a big difference for myself which also makes me like if I go to a meetup and if I'm giving a talk I'll make sure that I am delightful to talk to. And another thing is when you are about to give a talk you feel very nervous. So you pay less attention to what's happening in the conference. So for myself my talk was on the second day and I nearly missed all the content on the first day I might be sitting there but my mind is somewhere else. So I had to like re-watch the videos I want to learn about the things that the other speakers have to speak to. Similar but slightly different like the part about whether people will actually go out to speak to you as a speaker it's actually I have a slightly different experience because I gave for one of the conferences where I spoke at there are people who actually will come and talk to you to discuss more but sometimes people just play me very shy and they don't really approach you even though you're a speaker or maybe like I'm not so sure about that it's my experience so it is sort of a guarantee that being a speaker will get people to talk to you because like you know sometimes people just don't want to talk to you or maybe they are just very shy shy Asians don't want to talk to the speaker think that the speaker will eat them oh by the way we don't we are human beings but what's different about speaking on stage versus being in the audience is that when you're in the audience you're just like you're just there to learn and stuff like that but then as a speaker right you're not just there to try to learn from other speakers but at the same time you also have to make sure that you're doing a good job because people trust you to go on stage and speak for let's say 30 to 40 minutes so you have to make use of the 30 to 40 minutes and you have to make sure that you get a good impression get people to stay there and then before that there's a lot of speaker prep and stuff so although I don't really write a script because I find that if I write a script it will actually cause me to be a bit more robotic so what I actually do is that I have to plan the flow and stuff there's a lot more attention I have to pay towards giving a good talk so for one of my talks it was a two day conference but on the first day we have one half which is the talks and then another half which is going out for the tour and stuff but then because my talk was on the second day and then I was still trying to fix my demo and stuff because demos may work in your home country in your home but sometimes it may not work at the venue so you have to try to find a way to work at the venue so that actually caused me to be unable to focus as much on the content of the talks about other speakers and then after that if people talk to you that means you don't need to do the hard part of talking to people it's good plus two for introverted people who don't know how to do a conference be a speaker so definitely I think trying not to be on day 2 of the conference I was also on day 2 of the conference and to be honest I experienced exactly the same thing my brain was blanking I got so stressed out after the day 1 seeing all the good talks that I went back and spent the whole night just trying to fix my talk the talk that I went in with became a whole different talk so I mean that was that but I think like building on what they already said one of the different things that I felt was when you're an attendee I think when you're a speaker you have more responsibility to also go and interact with the audience around you because honestly it is yes I'm more of an ambivert so sometimes I also need downtime but it's actually easier to be an attendee they put you in speaker dinners so before you go into the conference you just thrown into the field of people but before that there's actually a speaker dinner usually and then you meet a lot of people so when you go into the crowd you don't feel alone then also there's always a speaker's room where people can go and rest and then downtime then you can talk to each other there's a smaller crowd but then as a speaker I can't have to remind myself that I can't be an ass about it because if I'm a speaker I already got an opportunity to go out and then don't attend to the sessions which is even worse because I'm not actually supporting the conference on top of that, even though I do know that I'm a speaker I also got to make sure I spend some time to go into the crowd and also talk to people who are attendees that when I was an attendee if the speakers don't talk to me and didn't walk past me and talk to other speakers I always feel like oh my god this is a different breed of people I'm the plebian then I just do it myself so I'm like okay you know what for people to also gain the confidence to be a speaker for me that's why you try to be more relatable then you just go and talk to people also so I think that was the learning that I had as a speaker so we doubled that then at the end of the conference you're really damned but I think it's more worth it so I think when you all become speakers next time that's something to think about very valuable and good advice sharing thanks everybody so like going back to Chi hui's point like a lot of preparation and I think I believe everyone will have a different way of dealing with talks personally I have the way I prepare for my talk is I think a bit more rare than most people so I was wondering if you all could share just to prove a point that everybody does it differently so like what how do you as brief as you can how do you prepare and deliver what is your strategy not on stage not on stage so I think as Singaporeans whatever speech you speak at normally you cut one third and then you speak at that speed like half is not enough which is what I found out and okay I do speak generally quite fast as well but you really gotta slow it down a lot I think having your talk in mind I don't actually have a script because if I have a script I will blank out and I won't interact with the audience so I usually have a half form thought and I have like bullet points in my brain and then I just try to wing it on the spot because then I can react to things that happen in the crowd yeah so for example when I was at level 1 my clicker didn't work actually it did try to pass me a clicker but I like spoiled in my hands so I freaked out right and I didn't freak out as badly because I knew I only have 3 big points I want to cover so I know that I have time to mess up and I have time to react to make a joke out of it and I can better talk to the crowd and still walk around the stage and own the space which makes a big difference and that's people remember different things they actually don't really know what to talk about at the end of the day so it's okay so that's how I manage to keep it down and I think like having as a Singaporean having like hand signs helps you to slow down because then I'm like okay then stop talking Sarah like wait that's not the next point so I think that helped me to present things properly when you can enter at the crowd you can actually see people's expression so try to gauge like people understand you are they continually lost show you really just get off stage then this is the next thing about that's how it helps I think for me I'm also the type who doesn't prepare a script because I've done I don't prepare scripts but what I usually do is that I will prepare some like an outline of a board of points that might actually change as I try to put it by slides so to me right slides are actually very important because it not only does it guide my flow like give you a cue to like speed up or slow down and also like and then it also helps me to like imagine the flow of the talk because since I don't have a script right but how do I rehearse this then I will try to like roughly look through my slides and see the flow like so is this the flow that I will like to convey to the audience is the flow like small flash that the audience will understand the story what I find that the story is very important so like from the point form to creating the slides and then to actually like visualizing the flow of the presentation and then after that so like so that is more for the slides but for the demo portion right like if I have a demo I will I will want to put I will want to put the slides like our first priority because that will be half that will be what will guide my brainstorming the flow and then so and then like at the same time I will also work on a demo and one tip about demo demos always fail really so even if you pray to all then god see about praise it will still fail repair that it will fail and have a backup plan always always have a backup plan so different from the two of them I write out every single sentence of my script so there are multiple reasons for this one I am not very good at articulating words there is a very high chance to black out whatever so I write everything out and also it is slow for me to come up with things to say on stage but to give a conference talk you need to be very precise on time so I can't let myself take the risk in front of so many people so I write out all the script and then how I prepare is so I try not to let people feel that I am reading out of the script so how I prepare for that is I basically practice to myself pretending I don't have the script to get a feel whether I feel like I am speaking or am I reading so I find that helps a lot but that also means I actually spend a lot of time rehearsing my own talk but I do know that there are people who are very good at articulating words so other people can have different methods of coming up with this just to add on so I am very similar to her word for word that is the way I do it and I think again the point of me asking this question is to prove that there is no right way to do it but you do have you should try as many ways especially if it is your first time to see which way you feel most comfortable for so for myself right I have given enough talks that I have actually honed the whole in my mind it is like I mean eh Obama has a teleprompter if it works for Obama I can work for me so the way I do it is that my speaker notes are verbatim I feel as if I am not is I blow up the font size as big as I can get away with and then so I will just work but it is enough that I can still see my script so things like that and even when I rehearse I am rehearsing walking around walking around in my own room rehearsing as if there was an audience in front of me but the one thing that I do of advice, speaker advice is that I never give my talk in front of anybody so I do a less test in production style again this might not be for everyone because some people you know you want dry runs you want to give it in front of someone to get feedback and that is also actually a great idea just doesn't work for me so the point I am trying to make is that there is no one right way but try as many as you can and I think you will settle on one that makes it comfortable of course it would be nice if you could do it in a meet up because it is a more low stress environment but you can also do a like straight away go conference stage you will do you I did both by the way can I also just say like because it is your first time right if you are not super sure what your preparation style is I actually prepared twice for my talk that happened so I did one month before just a few weeks later it completely changed again this is even before I changed it on-site the point is that give yourself some time because you will sink into your brain and then you will be able to re-look at it one more time with fresh eyes especially your first time I also have add-on about dry runs the podium that we are running inside our company because most of our speakers are first-time speakers when they start speaking at our podium so we do dry runs for people but the point is not to have people at least how I see it the main point is not to have people to give you feedback but for you to actually run this by yourself so it is more for you to practice than for other people to provide suggestions and what happens most of the time is that the speaker himself will have a feeling how the talk runs after the dry run and most of the time also the suggestions goes in a way that everybody agrees that this is something that can be that may be improved so that is why even if you do not do a dry run with other people I do believe that a lot of people do the preparation by themselves so you have to try yourself together feeling another thing I would like to add about this whole dry run experience is that for my first conference talk I actually delivered a portion of my talk at the Python user group because number one I had to find a place to practice my talk and number two I also need to get relevant feedback about my talk because if I give a talk an audience who does not really understand the topic then how am I going to get the relevant feedback to improve my talk so that actually helps a lot in restructuring my slides I feel like just a few days before the conference itself maybe I can prepare the slides way beforehand but then when I get the feedback and it is relevant feedback then I will check it that's one thing that's good and then the response was very good another thing that I find is that if it's too late for you to find a dry run which was what happened for my second conference then it's probably good to sort of rehearse yourself you know it can be in your mind it can be in the toilet I don't know as long as you can rehearse the flow and how it's going to be on stage and then you visualize yourself on stage then that would be considered like a driver for me I think the commonality amongst all of us you have to at least give the actual talk that you're going to give at least once or twice before you go on stage some people are good with just doing it once personally before I go on stage I would have done the talk by myself at least 20 times minimum but that's that's me I know this is a bit overkill just like I'm weird but at least once just for the flow because if you win it on that day it's different for a meet up meet up I just go I think some of you have attended my meet up you know that I go on and like anyhow but I feel that it's very different for a conference because in my mind I'm asking to see me I'm asking I don't know 300, 400, 500 people I'm asking all of them to give me half an hour of their time time which is something that is the only thing in life that you can never get back money you can earn back things you can get back time if I ask you to give me half an hour of your time just like all of you are giving me half of your day to day I better give you back something in return because I'm asking you for something very valuable this is just only my personal opinion I get a lot more seriously that's just but I want to bring back to the very first thing that Sarah mentioned because all of us here we are not Ang Mo let's just put it out there Exxon's I think this is this is particularly relevant to me because I do adopt an Exxon when I go on an international stage in Singapore I keep it in me but when I go up I do the Exxon thing so you mention it just your thoughts on it so I think there's a difference between changing your normal way of speaking to a level that people can understand but retaining your local identity there's a difference with that kind of scenario there's a difference between me just completely speaking like I was born in the US and in order to for different intents sometimes because sometimes you are just surrounded by so many people like that that you also want to sound the same sometimes you might perceive it as oh this is because I've seen this so much on media and TV this is therefore the go standard for how I should sound to some professional and if I'm using the normal way I speak it's not the go standard and I don't sound professional which is not true and that would deny a large part of Southeast Asia and all the other cultures that we come from so when I go there I try to find the middle ground I would say I would remove all the lies and liars and blah blah how can words all taken out but I do retain speaking like that think of it as for those of you who didn't grow up in Singapore we have an oral examination what I would do to pass that exam that kind of exam so it's still grammatically correct but I try to remind myself not to sound like I was born in the US because I really wasn't and also want to be able to introduce that variety of accent that people then come talk to me and be like oh okay so where are you from rather than because initially when I was starting to speak I was so used to speaking in the US accent that everyone thought that oh I just thought you came from San Francisco actually really know people who did not have my background so I started speaking more like that so that's my take on it do y'all have any thoughts on it the thing about the local identity and stuff right so then when I go to a international conference and then I do see Asians and stuff like that but I don't see anyone like me coming from outside of this Asia people don't even know where I come from until I introduce it in my talk that's why and I talk like Singaporean and number 2 is that I talk very fast like a lot of Singaporeans so that's why to be able to express my local identity but also have a level of clarity that people understand that's why I try to structure my slugs in a way such that I will stick a little bit slower because I want to have the flow that I intended to and then on the other hand I also make a conscious effort not to say not to talk a lot of English and stuff but still but still don't go back to the US accent because when I go to exchange the US and then I try to adopt an accent or something then at a conference stage and then you know that you're probably the only person on stage like who I like you so you don't want to blend in so much with the crowd such that people don't know where you are from but because at least when you go on a stage then you have 30 minutes of your time you want people to know who you are what's your background what can you bring to the community and the conference your identity as someone from Southeast Asia you don't want to dilute that when you have the platform to speak I have a relevant point but not directly about accent so I had an interesting experience about my so I give the talk in China I am originally from China also and so I actually had the option to do it in Chinese or in English so I was debating myself whether I really want to do it in Chinese or English it's a bit risky to do it in English because for one if you know about people in China are if they know you as a Chinese and then you go out and then you come back and have a narrow kind of expectation you might or might not want to be added on yourself but more importantly I was debating because I'm not sure whether to deliver this in English are people going to be able to follow my talk the way I want it but eventually I decided to give it in English because I wanted the content to be consumable by other people if they see the video so I did it in a way that I speak very very slowly I speak with I myself speak with an accent that I pick up from all over the places I've been so eventually what's a bit funny is that people were not able to tell that I'm originally from China and I forgot to introduce that part so that took away the pressure but to speak in I guess the thing I learned from this experience is that I really had to think a lot about how to make my content digestible by the audience I'm speaking to and if I can do anything to make it consumable by a bigger audience I try to make the effort I think that's very worth the time as a speaker so I think again this is very open and there's no right way or wrong way of doing it and I feel that for myself that shape has sailed because there's a lot of videos of me floating around and if you I do have an accent it's very pretentious British accent but I have to be surrounded by animals I know your face I can only see English I'm sorry but I think for me it's also funny because I'm not that person who I parrot very very fast so if I'm surrounded by a group of like say Australians wow I was born in Kuala Lumpur so I fell into that but actually you are right very early on when I first started speaking right this is one experience that I like to share a lot is that the first time I was put on one of these events called Mozilla Developer Roadshow where it was I thought that was a token of girl it was very star standard you work in front end you might know these are like the big names these are the white guys that everyone that sold tickets right sandwiched between two very big names sandwiched between smashing magazine Vitaly Friedman and Jeremy Keefe put me in the middle I'm like wow wow wow wow so like I didn't think that I didn't want to further emphasize that was a token of girl it also just so happened that so I straight away I'm more count English accent on it just I was like so I only do the local thing now the only time I have a conference actual conference video was like connect Asia I was like I'm tired I just go off a plane very easy so to a certain extent I feel that now to me it depends on audience so like if I'm in a savvy Asian audience I will go for it I will go for it in Singapore audience but I know that if I go to especially certain places in America or even the UK where like they generally really cannot do it it's just as if a Scottish person came here and gave their talk in really thick Scottish accent that's kind of tricky also so to a certain extent I will just like I make it easier for you to understand like if you think I'm from the west coast sure no problem but I think there is a lot of value in what you said this is a problem we have I'm more come here they don't think they have to speak English why do we have to do this and like for me personally is when I started out I think subconsciously I also look down I also look down on myself of course they are here to see the white guys it took a while when I went home to Penang and I did the event there it took someone from the audience to come actually we don't know who these white people are we came to see you and that meant a lot to me to go home because as an athlete I used to play basketball the thing about Malaysian athletes is that locals don't like us like we are if we do well somewhere you are so lousy that's the thought of MMI I grew up in and I think that in Evertonie also affected it but I'm hoping that everyone else who goes on stage I hope you don't have to have this thought of inferiority complex it's like just be proud of who you are and to be fair on the record I don't think the western countries are doing very well for themselves recently you are just as good if not better one thing to add on you also have to trust that your audience this is something I learnt as well you have to trust that your audience is also mature example when you try to mentor a teenager you cannot treat them like a kid because then they will act like a kid but if you treat them like an adult then you are expecting better behaviour from them one of the learnings that I had but more through working with very international teams is you have to trust that your audience will be more accepting of the backgrounds that you have because when I started speaking more as a Singaporean the normal way that I speak I actually got more feedback and more questions around like how's the system like what's the education system like so that opens up conversations so you also have to trust that your audience will feedback and play back with you as well last question what I move on is will you continue speaking in the future go I mean go answer go answer I must ask you a reason just one why not what is the most valuable thing from the speaking experience for you personally I guess just for sharing for everyone here because I also want you to take home something that will help you in your speaking career always think about how representation of the underrepresented is tough enough as it is we are already a minority it's not you then who else if you don't add to the volume then you cannot sit there and complain that not enough people so therefore keep going I think for me I think I will be yes because I will be speaking at another conference yes but I think one very important thing is that when you are a developer basically even if you are not a developer you surely will have faced some problems that you really want to vent about it in a way of course professional venting not like unprofessional venting because typically what you vent about may not just be your problem you have the same problem so it will be nice that you can share about your perspective so that you are starting a conversation about that problem if you start a conversation then people will talk more about it and then maybe you raise awareness about it and people might view and then you might be able to work something up to solve a problem together for me I can't say for the future I can say for my willingness to speak I will definitely speak at meetups in fact after the year of both running the podium as well as preparing for a bunch of talks meetups is the stage I like the most because the content is very close to where where my work comes from and I don't need to do like I don't need to make my talk into like a full scale performance that you probably want to polish your talk for a conference so so I want to put the most of my time into polishing content for meetup then if I feel like some of the talk I do is comfortable enough for me to submit for a conference I will probably do that but I will probably not set the first goal to be speaking at the conference can I just do what we say just one more point as well because just now I was speaking with Jiawei in the audience and we were talking about bios and stuff but I think also it's important point to note that speaking is not for everyone it's totally okay on the issue of representation if you feel like speaking is not your thing you can also do your part by being like a program manager like myself to find really good speakers and make sure that you help maintain the diversity so there's also value if you don't feel like you want to speak up I think most importantly is that don't feel like just because of the level of experience you are not qualified to speak it's not about the level of experience you have it's about what you can share like even when you are junior that might be something refreshing to the audience so I think the first round of applause for I guess my take away is that if you never tried it before it's nice to try it once and if it's not for you great at least you try nobody is obliged to do anything so like what Sarah said there are many different ways to represent so you can boost other people actually I think writing is one of the safest ways the only thing about writing is that at least for me my personal this is a bit off-tangent already but my personal thing is that everybody assumes I'm a guy because Chinese name nobody knows most people don't know what they don't even know the order of my name they just assume it's a guy first unless your name is very obvious maybe I guess Sarah is a girl's name then they're like oh yeah she Chinese name they're like same here but the fact that it's a Chinese name I think that's also good clearly not enough more so again the diversity part of this global diversity CFP there is like speaking is only one platform out of many but we do hope that we can change the opinion of I still feel that Southeast Asia even Chinese developers I feel they are built as just a stereotype view Southeast Asia is a cheap one I sometimes just feel they probably still live on trees so I think that's the thing that I think it's important for us to no matter how no matter what platform I don't know just to show that we can be as good if not better than you people they're okay so maybe come back on their mind