 Hey everybody, welcome to the next cast. I'm your host Matt, and I'm Tyler Welcome back Tyler. We have we took two weeks off. So two weeks ago Real life was getting in the way the last week. I didn't feel like doing it. I just had no interest in doing it So sorry guys. There was this other things going on. It was a busy day and I needed break So we took a little bit time off. We're back and we remember how to do podcasts Honestly shocking that this particular sing collection and OBS we shut it up didn't need to redo the transitions at all Really weird. That's why this whole situation feels weird because normally I have to spend a half an hour doing the transitions again Or the net transitions with the transformations and this time I didn't and it feels like something's going to go horrifically wrong I'm just like the computer's gonna blow up or Tyler's gonna walk in with a man bun I still just think of the man bun man look I'm knocking on wood right now because like I Don't want anything to happen on my like if my computer freezes. I swear on God. I'm gonna just get up walk away probably take a Massive massive hit of some marijuana So I don't come back in here and just punch the hell out of my computer because I don't know why but last night I did that and I I Don't know why and it can't happen again. All right computer. You hear me. I Think it understands. It's not as if you your audio has never been booked It's gonna be fine. All right. Don't don't go all gal. Don't go all Gallagher on your computer now There's a reference. Do you know who Gallagher was Tyler? So I'm gonna assume you're not talking about the Gallagher family from shameless. No No, okay, so wait hold on hold on hold on I Think I know what you're talking about can't remember the movie No movie. He was a comedian It came out in the 90s, right? He was around in the 90s, but like I said wasn't a movie was a he's a comedian. That's his name His name His entire stick was he had a watermelon and a sledgehammer and he smashed the watermelon and sprayed the audience with the watermelon the stupidest thing The funniest thing is he knew the little rascals he didn't know Gallagher. I'm just That's the type of episodes you guys are getting oh I do know this dude. I just did the his Okay, I know him from the from the thing where he does the pronunciation thing of different words It goes around oh god This is gonna be an interesting podcast All right, let's go ahead and jump in so this is the Linux cast in case you didn't know I mean It's not we're just gonna bring up shit from the 90s And you guys are gonna have to know about this because like half of my audience isn't wasn't even born in the 90s The other half was using Linux in the 90s. So we got a good split. Anyways, we talked about Linuxy things We're gonna do so today. We will eventually get to the main topic. I promise but first before we do a Couple things first if you're listening on a podcast catcher of some kind Leave us a review if you can specifically if you're on Apple podcasts Had on over or scroll down or whatever it is in the app leave us a star review and write a review for us It really helped the podcast out so we'd really appreciate that if you did that and Secondly, we have to talk about what we've been doing these last few weeks because we haven't actually talked very much in the last couple of weeks we've both been very very busy and Tyler I have a feeling has some stories to tell so Tyler Are you still in love with Nick's OS and what's been going on with you my friend? Yeah, well since it's been a while a lot's been going on. So I am looking at potentially converting a van to be like a Like a solar like kind of off-grid like small livable space. So I can go Like about 18 hours away and have a nice place to like kind of hold up in while I build a house So I've been working on that at the same time also selling my car Then I also want to eventually Start a game project. And so I've been looking at different game engines that are Gonna be the I'm trying to pick one based off of the one that's gonna be the fastest for me to implement the stuff That I want to implement So I had to do some playing around with unreal unity and Godot and for the unreal unity test Just in sure I wasn't running into bugs caused by it on Linux I installed Windows so I could try them out because if anyone doesn't know this like unity and unreal Yes, they do work on Linux But your odds of encountering a bug are like three times more likely just because they don't really like do their own Development and testing and stuff like that on Linux. They just allow you to run it there. But yeah, so So so far Unreal would be probably the easiest one to go with however It eats up video memory like none other I don't I don't know if you guys know this or not But unreal engine 5.3 will eat up six gigs of VRAM with a basic scene What huh? What? Okay So yeah been messing around with all that but back on Nick's OS Probably probably gonna be using unity or unreal just cuz they speed up development a lot, but Yeah, also, you know unity kind of burnt their company. So that's a whole other thing Yeah, I'm looking forward to one day playing a game from Tyler Studios. You should definitely call Tyler Studios Well, I was thinking like if I do if I do actually start making games, it's it's definitely gonna be Zany Studios Tyler Studios does it does have a ring to it too. I think Zany Studios is probably I don't know too far ahead I got so much stuff going on. I'll work on and got going on So what about you man? Please tell me you're a little bit more chill-axed And all a crap I got going on. I I've been having the same problems for two months. I Have serious ADD when it comes to the thing that I'm using so like I've settled on a distro open suits as a distro It's fantastic. We don't need to talk about it But I can't settle on a window manager or desktop environment. I keep switching back and forth I keep going between different things and it's just nothing just feels right to me right and I don't know why so like I Really like hyperland like I really like hyperland specifically now that they've added the ability to make the workspaces function Like X-mone add in Qtile. There's a command for that now and it works fantastically well like the if Hyperland was actually stable It'd be like the perfect window manager as a ton of awesome stuff going forward tons of features You can customize it to the the ends. I've even learned to love Waybar Like I started out hating Waybar because it just I couldn't get into CSS again I didn't want to and I was expecting it to be more like Polybar I've learned to love it. It's really good. The problem is that hyperland just it can't stay stable every time it updates there's something new that goes wrong and this last time for whatever reason Any time I'm capturing the screen something or whatever just randomly entire thing completely crashes and pushes me back out That's DDA SDDM. It's done it now three times. It did it once yesterday during the lug It did it twice last night. So I went back into plasma six now plasma six has been stable But I'm not happy in plasma six Just I don't feel happy in a desktop environment So I want I want tiling back and I don't know there's not enough good whaling composters because like I've dedicated myself I'm gonna use whaling all the x-work stuff seems to be dying is not getting updated or whatever And I've transitioned everything that I need to over to whaling now, you know I've gotten my menus and all the stuff to work. I'm just used to using whaling now So I've been trying to focus on just using whaling stuff But damn it if it's making it really really hard, you know, because there's not enough good selection out there And though the off the like the smaller Compositors are all even more unstable than hyperland is it's just And and Darius I have pushed bug reports. I have like four or five bug reports there I will publish the one that's crashing when I have a chance. I just haven't had chance yet I do that stuff and it's great and and Vaxry does a great fantastic job of fixing the bugs Like he really does a really good job, but it's developed so fast. He just keeps creating more bugs Like it just that's the way it is. I can't help it. So I'm just on I'm unhappy right now with everything and It's gonna see me back on X work is what it's gonna do It's gonna see me back on an X or window managers, but it's that's the that's the end place That's where all this ends is me back on X monad bitching and complaining about Haskell That's what that's where this ends all things Haskell apparently like like Haskell is the end of is the destination for us all DT was right all along damn it So yeah, that's what I've been struggling with that other than that. It's just been a shit ton of Fucking work like I can't I've added I think I edited a hundred and eighty thousand words in the past week It's been a sense. So the we have six editors at work and Then we have the the Editor-in-chief who does no, I can't say that on the I can't say when I shouldn't badmouth my boss when I'm being recorded I shouldn't do that But anyways, we have we have six editors and For whatever fucking stupid reason screw it. I'm gonna do it anyways the fucking jackass that sits above us and and and does absolutely jack shit Decided to give three of the editors the week in the next two weeks off three of them so like cut the workforce down in half and That means the other mean the two other guys both of who are fucking morons No offense guys, I would literally call that to the face because they don't know how to spell with a shit Like you're an editor and you don't have a spell they just stop Anyways, all right boys before he finishes. I just want to go ahead and make it clear But before Matt loses his job, it would be extremely helpful if you went to the shop Support it in any way you can he will need supplemental income I'm so getting fired. I can't help it. I'm so I'm I'm burned out I am sick of staring at Google Docs like with a passion like it's so I'm Well, look Probably the podcast is not the right time to do this But just so everyone publicly knows I've made the offer and you have now You do deserve a nice vacation if you want to save money and have a nice vacation Do have a vacation house. You're more than welcome to come to we can meet up and have a party If I get fired, I'll be I'll be on the first train out Other than I just I can't take a vacation because they won't give I was told that he couldn't take a vacation But now I know why because they'd already given these three douchebags a vacation all the same Apparently they're going to somewhere together. That's the reason why they all three needed at the same time I don't know I didn't even know that those other three talked to each other because it's we're all remote Like none of us are working in an office somewhere where we know each other We talked to me as this fucking zoom Hold on. That's the weird who I've never What you have You go on vacation with friends from a remote job like I've That's new. I've never heard that Fucking weird. Apparently they've been talking off You know whatever and have become friends and they've decided to go on a vacation together. I don't know it's it's weird It's the fucking stupidest thing just to let you know I don't want I have been actually reading books because I It's weird because I read all that stuff and edit it, but I still I read to relax. So I've been reading a lot of words. But anyways Now that I've had my rant and you guys don't care about any of that stuff. Anyways, let's go ahead That was probably the most entertaining thing This podcast will have to offer that was great I'm not mentioning about as John. That's great. Uh, anyways, that's it for that section. Let's go ahead and jump into the main topics so we've talked About system D in the past, but we've never done it as far as I remember a dedicated podcast about system D now The way that I I imagined this a couple different ways So I thought about point kind of point, but you're right that probably would have just become a bit Instead we're going to have an honest conversation about system D and its alternatives because We'll talk a little bit about I think the reasons why you'd want to use system D The complaints against it and why people choose to use other things And then we can talk a little bit about the other things that are available just for fun Because there are quite a few other in it systems out there And we can talk about a little bit of our experiences with those things as well. So Let's talk so tyler in general. What are your thoughts on system D? Good or bad? I think it's a fine in its system. I think it's probably done more good for linux than most people will ever Admit like Especially the people that dislike it like they'll never admit all of the good things that it's done for linux Most people don't even know how much it's helped linux. I think it's just fine I don't know a lot of people say that they've had a lot of like problems with system D breaking I haven't had that problem I don't think I've ever had system D break. I think I mean maybe like maybe one time services break Well, yeah, but that's totally different like That's that that's like You blaming flat pack for a flat pack not running It's like no the developer could just push the flat pack that doesn't work like I don't I really don't get a lot of the hate that it that it receives Really just a fine in that system. I find it actually easier to work with than a lot of others. I mean run it is kind of Similar in its simplicity to understand like Because because system D is so unanimous. It's very It doesn't take long to get familiar with how to use it and run it is kind of similar in that It's a totally different Scheme of how you're going to do things But it's very simple to get on board and understand the mentality behind what you're doing Yeah, I I don't know. I think system D is just useful. I don't know. What about you? All right, so there's two main complaints against this So dan points out that it's not in the system has a whole bunch of other stuff And that's one of the complaints is that it has other stuff, right? People who are very interested in the unix philosophy don't care for the fact that it does other things, you know You know, it does journaling and has a whole bunch of other functions and stuff and and they they keep adding Additional components to it like managing, you know, managing the Encryption and stuff of your home directory and all this stuff, right? so One of the key complaints against is that it's bloated so Bloat the other one and I think probably the bigger one It's because because people use bloated shit all the time. I mean people are using kde can't really complain about bloat. Okay, just Hold on there But I think the biggest one that people complain about is that it's primarily developed by red hat, which is you know, obviously a corporation their Fult firmly in control of it. And you know, they their primary mean You know reason for existing is to make money, right? So they're it's a very Anticorporatist view point from a lot of people who don't want to use something that is, you know That firmly in the control of a corporation. Now personally, I couldn't give two shits Like I don't care. Tyler. Are you raising your hand? Go ahead I have a this may be the most non PC thing I say But I think that mentality Retarded the prop like the problem with system d is that it has Too many components like do people not understand that like the idea behind system d is that it's a standardized init system and Well and more than that, but it's standardized So the more bits and bobs they add that means more users don't have to worry about it because it's going to be standardized And managing it will be very easy for the applications that you use So like isn't that a good thing like the Means if programs and your systems built to run on things that most run on Developers can automate things that save you time and effort like no one really wants to go in and mess with like You know like no one really wants to manage their encryption of their drive or like whatever like all the time This you don't really want to manage So like I don't I don't get the complaint that it's bloated like You're going to have the same thing like you're going to journal like us Most people are going to journal their systems Why not have it just all be standardized together? Like only that's a problem kind of the same thing. It's the core utils Like you can replace that there are alternatives to each core util But it's kind of nice that they're all packaged together And it's a standard set of utilities we all use kind of helps Am I like am I making a ridiculous argument here? I don't think so but Let's look at it from their perspective. Shall we? People who care about that perspective tend to want to have separate Things that do everything So they they want their net system to just be their net system. They want the you know Every little piece of their system to be very Separate and to do just one thing well because they Make the assumption That if something does more than one thing that it can't focus on doing the thing that it's supposed to do as well as it possibly could in the most efficient manner and I Is there validity to the argument that because system d does so many other things that It doesn't do well as an anus system Maybe but Because here's a here's a Good point to make we complain about firefox all the time Because mozilla is not focusing on it. They're focusing on a whole bunch of other stuff and firefox is not where it could be I don't really see that kind of conversation like you know the back and forth we have about that With system d like I really don't see people talking about it being like well I mean if they would just focus on the you know a knit system, it would be good like I really don't see it I really don't see many people using system d complaining about it I see a lot of people who used to use system d or just don't use system d complaining about it But really well, okay, so you ask somebody who uses like run it or Open rc or s6 and they'll tell you That another benefit of using an alternative in its system is that it makes your computer faster Now I have used Run it. I've used open rc. I've used cispia knit I I hold on a second before I know I call it cispia knit. It's cisp five cispia knit just sounds better in my head It's cisp five. Okay. It's it's cispia knit. Okay. It says I call it cispia knit, but every time I call it cispia knit There's somebody in the comment section that says matt you're pronouncing it wrong Okay, well, sure. I probably am but I I do not prefer cispia knit. It sounds cooler But anyways, I've used all of those things and I've never not once ever Seen my computer run faster now. I didn't time it but I assume that if it was like super faster than system d I would have noticed like I supposedly it's during startup where you really truly see the benefits of it like you can save like five seconds off your boot time, but if I don't know about y'all, but I'm okay with an extra five seconds, you know, like five seconds is not gonna be something that I'm maybe other people have a habit of sitting there in front of their computer while it boots up and just You know waiting But I don't there are other things that I can do. I I turn my computer on I can you know go You know coffee if I drink coffee or I can turn you turn my phone. I have other things that I can do and That extra five seconds isn't preventing me from doing any of those things or adding time where I have to go Look for something else. It's just not it's just it's just a weird Like like if it saved me a minute or two minutes, whatever fine Sure, or if it made the whole system run snappier, I'd get it but that argument of it, you know running faster doesn't really get get it for me and The whole idea of it of system D being bloated if The situation came to pass where it looked like system D was you know Not a good in this system anymore then you'd they'd have an argument but Has anybody ever looked at system D and think the thought like well, you know It doesn't do a knit good But it it does right. I mean it does Yeah, and I also don't understand like the whole performance like if we're talking about performance as a metric with your knit system like you're running a Terribly old machine like The performance like it's kind of like It's kind of like the zen kernel, you know like switching to it like yeah, you'll get like You know on average like point two five percent more performance awesome Does it really matter all that much? No, not really like no, you probably won't ever really tell a difference on paper, there's a difference but I mean who who who cares about like a You know A 300 nanosecond improvement like I mean if you yeah, if you're building a system from the software side to be as minimal as possible I understand like Sure, but a lot of people who use One of the minimal and that systems will go on to install Plasma or You know gnom or whatever all both of which are not minimal You know they'll or they'll go on to Just not have a minimal system whatsoever, but they'll still use the alternative in it system And that's fine you Neither one of us are arguing that you shouldn't use an in it system Of your choice use use whatever I'm glad that you have the alternative to use run it and sys 5 and whatever you want to use That's fantastic choice is always a good thing. We don't want There's the there's an idea that because those other exists it pushes the guys who develop system d to be better I mean that whether or not that's ever true or you know actually happens. I don't know But I'm glad that those things exist But I think my argument For this is that not that those shouldn't exist, but more that the reasons people tend to use them over system d are silly Like they just they seem like silly reasons and we there's a reason why we call them protest distros because they're they're protesting system d and I think a lot of people don't know I think there are some people who have the you know the arguments that we just we mentioned But other people use like dev want or You know even mx linux uses something different than system d. You know they use those things without They just don't care. They want to use something that's a little bit more back water than A standard distro. So that's what they use and doesn't really matter to them You know the in this sense they're using it because it's it's cool to be a rebel contrarian Like that's that's really what it is. It's all about being contrarian and I don't know there's something to be said for that but like also at the same time you can't I don't know it's it's really hard to have a conversation about like Whether or not any of these are better than the other one because they all do the same job Like when we're talking specifically about a net systems They all do the same thing like they start a service Well, yeah, where are you if you were really going to do a job of comparing them The best thing to do would be to compare the syntax for starting and managing your services, right? Because they all do that in a slightly different way But well and the syntax for the service itself. Yeah, can't be different. But there's there's also a A good point to be made for the fact that like, you know services have to be either handwritten or made for you by the developers If you're not using something standardized, then that means most likely you're gonna have to be willing to write your own services And who the hell wants to do that most of the time? Come on now like What well if you use something like mx linux And you're using this the the non systemd version because they do allow you to use systemd if you want to Then a month like one of the things we say about mx linux other than the fact that they've somehow gamed the Distro watch thing is that they've had to make a whole bunch of tools To do a lot of stuff, right? And we always say that what mx linux has a lot of really cool tools, right? Well, one of the reasons why they had to create tools was because they don't use systemd as their main On their main iso They so like for example, they they created a cron job tool, right? And which is cool. Which would be cool. No matter what one of the reasons why they had to do that is because Things like just downloading crony on mx linux won't work because crony assumes systemd Right and it doesn't have systemd. It uses whatever. I don't even know what mx linux is It's probably open rc. I'm guessing it's open rc. Maybe it's run it It's one of those two, but anyways, you know, it's just it's pieces of software like that that make the assumption Of systemd that requires then the distro to The distro or the user to you know Work around the fact that you don't actually have something that that causes a lot of pain for regular users, but I don't think that that's a argument against any of those because none of those are for Regular users unless you've I mean and unless you go to distro watch and assume that because mx linux is at the top of the list that it's automatically the best You know, I suppose then you're probably a regular user But they They have worked around that by creating the tools I suppose, but I don't know the For me the creation of services on systemd is always something that I've done it maybe Four times in the entire time I've used linux is to create my own services That's like literally all I've ever done it for most of the time Because if you're Your software needs to create a service around in the background it creates it itself now. I've I've had to Start services and you know enable them whatever that that happens a lot But actually sitting down going into the the dot config slash just some d Directory actually creating a user service that doesn't happen that often But it would happen a lot more often if I were on open rc or run it or whatever And I I have no clue how to create a service in either of those by the way Even though I used gen 2 for a month. I never You know even attempted to get into that. I don't know like I I still would be interested to find out if we If we end up having Open rc run it or something like that have ubiquitous Or close to as ubiquitous service support Because that that's really the problem is a lot of programs just don't like they just don't have it That's the main big problem with using something alternative for most people because Again, most people don't care enough to want to write their own stuff or just have to bother With managing their init system really interacting with it. I'll let you read Steve's super chat How about you do that? I agree man, it is cat food It is Also aren't have you keep pinging me? I he says I have an error Where a stop job is running for uuid 1000 while shutting down in system d and while turning on I had rebuilding dynamic linker cache A well turning on that stop job thing happens all the time like that's not something that Everybody sees that just leave it up the plumbeth screen. You'll never see it It might take and it doesn't happen all the time for everything. You just have one once in a while But if that's why you left system d that's okay So we have someone who had a comment. I'm just going to go ahead and show it because this This is like actually what a lot of people say So I'll I'll butcher your username if I say it, but he said f system d and its creator Why like and there are actually people who hold that opinion out there I don't understand it like What what happened? Did he poop in your Cheerios? Like I'm I'm very confused. I don't get the severe hate that I I I will never understand Like what well The thing is is like a lot of people point well like oh, he works for microsoft Well, he works for microsoft now But when he created system d he didn't work for microsoft he worked for red hat I I also I also don't think that was him going to microsoft is not a problem like If microsoft pays you a shit ton of money like Maybe people are unaware like a lot of people have to use windows in their day job waffles My father and now he's come for me I It's the best thing ever Like my name is indigo mantoya you killed my father prepared Oh, that's a great thing but I mean Okay, so let's let's dive in then to the corporate argument, right and People have There is legitimate concern about corporate influence on All things linux. There's a legitimate concern that the linux foundation is overly Corporatized For lack of a better word and there are legitimate concerns about that There's legitimate concerns that red hat has too much control over the main features of linux things like system d things like Wayland things like pipe wire pulse audio you get the idea There's legitimate concern over all of that stuff where I like you you can be very concerned about that You know the because red hat tends to stick its foot in its mouth every six months does something that really pisses the community off It happens a lot. Obviously Influence from microsoft and google and apple and on the linux kernel not necessarily always a good thing but Where I come through with all this stuff and specifically not only just system d, but everything is that If we didn't have red hat pushing things forward if we didn't have the money coming in from you know Corporate entities all over the place canonical and whatever We'd still be using elsa, you know, like let me just think about this. You'd still be using elsa Dr. Crensh has actually just said elsa, you know Like nobody wants to control their audio through a configuration file. Maybe the nix of west users should be very happy doing that But rest of us are normal people. We don't want to do it that way It was corporate influence that allowed pulse audio to exist And all that stuff. I mean also if it wasn't for red hat I mean the linux desktop would be shite compared to where it is now Like they're responsible for a lot of the improvements also I will go ahead and say Pointing out that lin linard pottering however you say his name. I'm always going to butcher it But anyway has been a douche to people Yeah, you can't use that against him like dude people said he had death threats like Death threats and also a lot of people hate him for making pulse audio and like look i'm i'm not gonna lie Pulse audio and well any linux audio solution is rife with problems. Okay, there's there's No doubt about it But if you think that pulse audio is not a major improvement over also seek help you can't like you can get help Trust me You're not alone. Okay. All right get help. I don't I I don't know like I to me personally I don't think corporate Influence is necessarily a bad thing. I think it's good to be wary about it because Well, it's just it's good to be wary about most things in general, especially when it comes to big money big influence, but most of the players in the linux space Aren't that bad like As as much as a big corporate entity can be bad red hat Comparatively if you look around the landscape doing pretty good like pretty good As much as people want to hate on it. Let's do it pretty good. You can point to several Incidents where they you know didn't do good where since they but were bought by ibm that they were more Capitalistically inclined, you know, that's true. Like absolutely true and and very fair Like the the whole putting the source code behind a paywall Not great look. Okay for an open source company that that has prided itself on being the open source company, right? But Just because Someone's a douche drew in in the in the chat like just because someone is a douche Doesn't necessarily mean make their accomplishments, you know Automatically something that you shouldn't use right for example Anyone who drives a ford if you have this point of view You probably should stop because henry ford was a blatant anti-semite the same thing if if you own volkswagen They supported hitler Like we have pictures right there are literal pictures of the the the porc the volkswagen and porc dudes With hitler like they the reason why the bug looks the way the bug looks is because of of hitler So there you go. If you drive one of those You're a nazi I mean If if the the transitive property exists because you know, this guy's a douche therefore We shouldn't use system d then that also has to exist. You know what I mean? It's just So so just just because you don't like someone's politics Everybody I think everyone mostly agrees That richard stallman is A little weird to put it, you know, pc like he has some very weird That was very polite. Yeah, very very weird You know thoughts in his head that he's published online for people to actually see now some of those things He's walked back, but honestly once you talk about, you know Children in that manner you really can't walk that back, right? Like people once it's out there it stays out there forever But just because that's true doesn't mean that gnu is also A bad thing that you should never touch everyone he who uses linux uses something that the that the gnu organization Has created like you definitely do and and people are like, oh, i'm on void linux. I use uh, I don't use The the gnu core yukitils or whatever. I'm an alpine. Is it alpine linux that has nothing to do with gnu? I use okay. Okay. I mean Good for you But most people don't have that weird Situation where they think well this guy's a bad guy Therefore we shouldn't use the thing that he could helped create And if you do have that situation, there's so many things that were created by people who weren't necessarily the best people That you just could never use you Go live in the woods, you know I mean you can't take you can't take in the the account of the personality of the person who creates stuff Or has the association with at least I couldn't Just because you you can't know the history of everybody. I mean you said there are a lot of assholes out there And sometimes you have to use their shit. Well, I'm pretty sure there was a guy in history who invented I I think it was like something to extract nitrogen out of the air like something like that Because of his invention he saved like millions of lives through like through being able to make fertilizer and You know keep crops going But so at the same time he got the Nobel Peace Prize for that He was also being convicted of war crimes because Like some of the same stuff that he was working on was used as like gas or something like that In like the war So yeah, somebody can like do something really incredible and at the same time do something Absolutely horrific. I think it's kind of just having nuance But that can be difficult. Okay, and we're not saying that you can't be morally opposed to You know hitler Like you definitely should be you should definitely should be right But I don't think we can correlate hitler with red hat Or Leonard Leonard powdering whatever his name is. I don't think he's hitler. Okay Like you can disagree with him, but he he's not hitler. So it's still okay to use system D right Maybe that line is too high like maybe maybe My standards for being evil shouldn't be hitler. It should be something a little bit lower You know true, but we're so getting canceled We're gonna cancel demonetize and we're gonna end up in jail for hate crimes Something's gonna happen I have to us if we're not gonna be here next week because somebody's gonna murder us or something The the idea though is that you have these the you know If you have moral qualms with the people who created the things that are Normally used that's fine. That's A personal opinion that is reasonable to hold like I don't particularly care for Linus Torvalds I think he is overly aggressive sometimes. Also, I think that I'm not necessarily him as a person But it worries me a little bit that he still has so much control Over the Linux kernel because what happens when the dude decides to retire or die, you know You're like, what what happens then does does he have a plan in place? to the point where When he decides to retire that there's someone who's going to take over because all the guys who are around him the The vast majority of the the Linux kernel developers are his age. So they're all going to go About the same time So what happens that I make a bet Can I make a bet sure I I bet that it's in his will that when he dies The last fuck you to Nvidia is the kernel developers nuke all of the Nvidia support kernel level Just with a gigantic middle finger just pointing. Yep. Yep. Yep Bye bye Nvidia nuke. Well, I know gkh has been selected but Correct me if I'm wrong But isn't he like the same age as Linus Turvult or their bouts like within 10 years or something like sure he's a solution for a little while maybe But it's not going to be forever But that's that's really beside the point, right? It's it's just that he still has all this control and if you don't like him It's hard to use Linux if you stand on the the hill of not using something made by someone you don't like Right. Hold on. Hold up. But can we be honest though? Like so the biggest argument against Linus Turvult Is he speaks his mind? And a lot of times he can come off like an ass. Yeah, isn't that like I would rather Have somebody who can be an ass and might piss me off But speak their mind then someone like, you know, someone coming out for micro shaft He's gonna lie to your face nine times And then tell you that they're gonna give you a treat binge you over a table take your wallet out of your back pocket And you know, there's some terrible things to you. I I'd much rather pick the first dude He's gonna be a little bit of an ass like then, you know We talked about this a couple weeks ago where developers aren't all Develop a lot of developers aren't necessarily the most socially inclined people, right? Yeah, he's just another example of that and that's not You know anything unusual and he obviously doesn't have the same level of vitriol pointed at him for the same reasons at least as like Richard Stallman does like he has other Stallman has other reasons why people don't like him. He's more of a controversial subject than Turvult is but the Which I don't get it like who doesn't eat their toenail Sorry, like can I just close the camera like It's just it feels Weird to me just from a personal perspective It feels weird that people have taken this to this level where The reason why I don't like something is because I don't like the person who develops it, right? It feels too personal to me But maybe it's just because I can disassociate that better than you know other people and that's just fine but the the rash The rationale behind Not using system d because it is you know Developed by a corporation who has corporate interests, but also developed by people who have flaws is Weird because all people have flaws If you're looking for a developer who is a hundred percent all always An awesome person like has never done anything bad in their entire life has never said anything stupid has never gotten a traffic ticket or whatever You're going to be very disappointed and have nothing to use You know, I spend I spend a lot of time on discord talking to people and trust me Even the nicest people, you know, we'll say some wild shit sometimes Like I mean, it's just people are people bed. Like you can't expect someone to be The most finely etiquette like or have the most finely tuned etiquette at all times Like that's just not how people work. Absolutely. Also What's the problem with Like I I don't know. I I don't see a problem with somebody messing up Or doing something they shouldn't like there's multiple times where linus says Linus has actually admitted that he probably should not or not probably he should not have behaved the way that he did That seems like a pretty good character trait to publicly Like, you know, be like, yeah, I was in the wrong there. I mean to be fair He did only do that after it was pointed out to him, but good points Good point. Very good point. He did Since that happened, he does seem to have gotten better. Like he's still very blunt, but he's European, you know, like, like I don't know if you've ever met a European Most of them are blunt in some especially. I mean, I You know, he's not I don't think he's german, but you know, the the If you do with opens the opensusa form very often, like they're very very blunt Like they don't they don't waste time. They say it like it is a lot of Europeans are just like that So there's that it's any any got better afterwards, but he's still very blunt But I'm just imagining this Tyler. We're going to get an email From someone that says I'm sorry. I can no longer watch your podcast or listen to your podcast anymore Because I cannot handle the fact that you are blatant apologists for Filling the blank. It's going to be you know, it's going to be the rms comments. It's it's going to be the things we said about, you know And hitler some it's going to be something weird like that or not weird, but you know, something Blatin Yeah, we're definitely going to come we're definitely getting canceled for that Absolutely. So first off We're sorry. Okay. Well, we'll just apologize right now. We'll come on to our public apology now We don't we're we're sorry for Yeah, so we are publicly fogging ourselves right now. You're welcome. We say shit. Okay, but That's a Steve says i'm sending that email now Thank you, Steve. Hey Lennox. Hey, what butt you kicking? What the fuck one minute? It's system d now butts Yeah, I love big butts and I cannot lie steve Get sir mix a lot out of your brain, bro Anyways, we're we're definitely But I think that that us saying things that we're definitely going to get canceled over is prime example Of the fact that we're flawed people we say shit on this podcast all the time Yeah, but that's also us being real because people aren't clean in pc all the time Like you have opinions that might upset somebody like I think there's a level of dishonesty that goes with Acting like you don't have those kind of opinions or that behavior doesn't exist with you Because that's just also people can see right through that Like there's nothing more off-putting than someone who seems like they're a super too nice guy like They're always super nice. It's like What are you doing your free time, man? Like, you know That there's a level of nice that your has bodies like in the walls. Yeah Like there's a level of nice where like it it it It like it comes with a level of distrust like Like there's a level of nice where you're like, this can't be real. Stop. Like that guy's definitely putting on masks. Yeah, it's exactly and Yes, there are Things that people can say things that people can do and you know below hitler, you know Not quite to the hitler But you can be an asshole like a super asshole. You can also have really weird views like rms does That's that's what his initials are right like stallman does. Um, you really weird fucking views and We can argue about him all that all you know for an entire episode if we wanted to but I Where my perspective comes in is just that Just because he's weird borderline Petto whatever, you know and eats his toenail cheese as trafitin said in the in the chat Just because that stuff's true doesn't necessarily mean that gnu is the worst thing ever now Also, this should be an inspirational story to everybody in like listening to this if you think that you can't get something done Or you'll never accomplish something I want you to think about the fact that a man who publicly eats his toenails Made gnu and is successful. So Use that as inspiration and remind yourself of that anytime you're feeling down or feel like you can't accomplish something just know You can't There is absolute it may take time, but you'll get there. Okay If toenails can do it so can you You're welcome. First off if his nickname isn't toenails. It definitely should be Pico roco i'm gonna pronounce your name wrong. It says he uh Leonard pottering which is what is really not leonardo potter Hurts dogs for fun I don't think that that's true But if it is let me know because then i'll stop using system d Because that's that's the line rock a if you hurt puppies I don't like you anymore and I won't use your shit I don't know why it got me so good. That's so funny like a leonardo potter Alexi you can't accomplish something starting your toenails. Thanks tyler got it You're welcome, dude. You're welcome anytime So okay, so the the the thing is just to bring it back to system d not really completely gone track It's just that It's a thing that you use Okay And the vast majority of people who use linux use system d the vast majority people who use system d can do so Without correlating it with its creator or with the company that continually, you know maintains it now you know Most people can do that because they don't know any better and the people who do know better Oh either You can't disassociate The creator and the maintainer from the product in which case you go use run it Or you're like me and you don't care like I don't well no But see the thing is is like when it comes to system d I don't even think you can use that argument like separating the person from like okay Most people if they're an ass like That's that's one thing you could probably use as a negative This man wrote in a knit system and got death threats and people genuinely fucking hate him Like yeah, you're dude if you're getting death threats and people hate you Because you made pulse audio and system d like Let's be honest matt put yourself in his shoes Are you probably going to be known as a really nice guy? Probably not I mean like Like when like a whole bunch of people are telling you like you're the worst thing that's ever happened to linux And like you work your fucking ass off And the person who is most likely writing this is probably using Something that you've worked on and is like integral to their life I think okay, so this is going to come across as a really old guy thing to say But and it's probably not 100 true because I can't put a poll out there and say how old are you And what in the system do you use but It feels like a lot of the people who are really high on the hog in terms of Anti system d like there's some people just use run it or system in it for the other reasons like you know It's faster or because they think system is bloated but the people who are Like vehemently against system d as a thing Because you know anti corporate because they're anti corporation or they don't like the creator or whatever It feels like they're more of the younger generation the people who didn't Didn't use linux In the nineties and early 2000s who don't know That when you wanted to Use audio in the past Chances are either it worked or It didn't those were the options and most of the time It didn't you know like it just Or you had to have a degree in audio engineering to get it to actually Work and function the way that you wanted it to it wasn't just you plugged something in and it worked which is Most people who use linux these days. That's their experience you plug in a microphone on linux and it works You know mostly I mean unless you're having a bad day And I mean like there's also the fact that like Most people nowadays if you if you're What who you're talking about that that newer generation who doesn't You know it didn't experience having to use also like you know Before or for whatever reason like just using also and like avoiding pulse like if pulse audio is all you know I could easily see being like I don't even know why they'd make this shit It's like it you know, it breaks pretty frequently. It has issues but Even then like look at the other options you have like Is jack really all that much better like is it all that much easier to use really like do you want to use also like They they all have their own issues and problems But I think at the end of the day I don't think you really want to go back to anything else like I don't I don't think most people would just drop pulse audio and go use jack Like you know like I don't even know if that's an option I don't even know if you can do that. I don't know. Can you like could you use jack with like Discord well jack just sits on top of jack is the Jack at least as far as I know Requires pulse audio in order to work like you can't you can't use them sir So you know that qpw graph thing where you can kind of like draw lines between things That's basically what jack is but for pulse audio. So it requires the audio System underneath it in order for to work. That's got that's okay All that just goes to show how much I use jack. Yeah All that all I said I've used jack exactly one time. So I've already exhausted All of my knowledge of what jack is so I do I do know that people who do serious audio stuff Still prefer to use jack because it's oftentimes more powerful than what is still available on Pipe wire, but I I don't know if that's still the case or not So maybe Alexi says jack existed before pulse audio So maybe you can use it with also but as far as I know that it sits on top of the audio stacks So but I don't could be completely wrong the the Thing the thing is it's just I don't I don't think that people realize how Good We have it I mean granted I was not around in the early 90s to I mean I was around but I wasn't using Linux in the early 90s. I didn't use Linux for the first time since and until 2003. Well 2002 ish and that was the first time I used Linux and even then It wasn't a fantastic experience when it came to audio and getting Wi-Fi to work Okay, like there were serious issues with getting those things to work on hardware like And it wasn't just like oh, I have an issue but the vast majority of people can get it to work It was like everyone had issues if you wanted to get Wi-Fi to work Chances are you had to have a specific Wi-Fi card to get it to work? And if you didn't have that Wi-Fi card, you weren't using Wi-Fi These days the vast majority of people anybody nowadays Just sorry to cut you off, but just so everyone watching this knows Like nowadays you can go to the store and pick up a Wi-Fi adapter When a little USB Wi-Fi adapter in nine times out of ten is just going to work on Linux Do you know how long that was not the case? Do you know how long Best Buy Every other electronic store near you would have like 20 different USB little Wi-Fi dongles And not a single fucking one would work on Linux and you'd have to go to the store Pick up one try it out because none of them would claim to have Linux support Even if it did support Linux, so you'd have to grab one take it home. Try it out Bring it back. Grab a different one. Take it home. Try it out You're blessed today when you can go into a store and just grab a Wi-Fi adapter and walk out and like not worry about it God bless. I hated those days Sorry I mean it's just true. It's just we have it very good and and there's still a portion of the community that is I want to call them ungrateful assholes, but sometimes it feels like that way. No, no, it's not guys We're not generalizing the vast majority people who use sys 5 and render whatever perfectly fine people the vast, you know, they they just use it because you know They like to be the rebel it's their contrarian They prefer because it's faster. Maybe it works better on their hardware Whatever there there are very legitimate reasons why you don't want to use system d outside of the the weird the the political one, you know and All that stuff is great because there's one last thing we should talk about and that is standardization the Linux community abroad hates standards and they just hate the fact that standards exist and they think that A standard thing that is controlled by one singular entity is not a good thing and You can argue again that that's absolutely true. Um, but also guys standards are actually sometimes good because I mean At least from a developer standpoint the fact that system d is the biggest thing in the Linux sphere means that they don't have to worry about developing things for 42 different init systems and everybody's using something different. It's one, you know We've actually managed Finally to pull some pieces of software into the linux sphere that didn't exist 10 years ago Like, you know, obviously adobe is still not here But you know, we have things like spotify and we have obs that actually works and we we have all the browsers that you could possibly want Yeah, we have we have these things and software development seems to be in a place right now where people can actually say Because I can use flat pack or snaps or whatever I can actually push my software and I have to worry about publishing to nine different repositories That's all great. But can you imagine that situation being such as it is if They also had to worry about the fact that every distro they want to be on also has a different init system It may get so much worse than it already is. Yeah. Well, I mean if you just think about it like so like let's say Let's make it super simple. Like let's Let's say you wanted to make a service for your program so it could detect something and Automatically the program comes comes like launching up the window launches up from the background Do you would you rather write one service? That supports an entire os like operating system like windows you write one service. It works apple you write one service it works and then You know linux you write one service it works or would you like it if every single platform had seven different options? And also some people would like it implemented in a way that mixes too. You got free time You really like working on this project. You'll be doing it for a while Well, it would just mean it would just mean less software is what it would mean, right? it's just less software not only from Big developers, but also small ones wouldn't be able to do it. It would also mean I mean we bitching moan about fragmentation all the time It'd be more fragmentation because developers who decided that they were going to go through with developing something for Wilinix would just develop for one in it system like one Standard like or one thing they they it would only work on a boon to like that's all it would work on If you wanted to use x piece of software It would only work on actually you brought up a great point when you said ubuntu because someone said in the Or in the chat, I wouldn't use linux if it was all standardized linux is standardized around ubuntu Like let's be dead honest It's standardized around ubuntu if you run something different. It's a luxury that it goes to that like almost all enterprise software is Developed and tested especially when it comes to like, you know, the program has a desktop use case Like that's where it's going to be tested for everything else is a privilege Most things are standard standardized around ubuntu and I also don't think that would be a problem because Here's a big point to make Microsoft is standardized and one of the big problems with them and apple is they actively work The standardization is not just there. It actively works against you doing something different In linux, that's not true. Like yes, system d is the standard But the only reason that you would really have a problem using something different than system d Is just because the developers have it written a service for it or you know, you got to you know Know how to write your own services. I don't think that's a big challenge for most people to overcome Like if you if you want to do something different than the standard There's not an active Movement to stop like no one's no one's trying to stop No one prevented them from creating run it or open rc or whatever and and sys 5 has been around for a lot longer than system d has and it's still around it's still kicking right it's it's still there just like um Like we've standardized basically around the linux kernel right the linux kernel is basically there for all distros, right? You're just going to use the standard stock linux kernel Obviously, there are different variations, but it's still linux kernel, right? But gnu herd still exists Okay, like it's still there nobody by the way I put out a call and tech over tea for people to contact me if you actually used gnu herds I'm still putting that out there have not heard from a single person But you can go to the website. They're still developing that thing. It still exists. Nobody stops them So we probably should wait hold on. Hold on. Have you so you you said you have checked on gnu herd? How recent was that? No, no, no. Well, the the website or whatever's still like there was an update in 2023 On their website the only reason I asked that is I would be curious to see like How active development is on gnu herd mainly just comes to like I don't does anyone in this chat like anyone anyone in here if you run gnu herd as your main system Please let us know. Okay. So very interested So on the screen right now their last entry was quarter four was 2023 dash q4 so December probably like it looks like they post about once once a year once a quarter or so Like a dent there's actually like a debbie in gnu herds Like if you wanted to run debbie in with gnu herd, you could do that. Apparently that was released in 2021 There's another one that was released in june of 2023 for That's actually a thing. So but I haven't ever met anybody who does it, right? Apparently lanardo in chat does where lanardo. Sorry. I'm again butchering usernames. Sorry But yeah, we got one person email at the linuxcast.org Proof or doesn't exist. Yes, actually a discord call after this my server I I'm desperate to find someone who actually uses it because somebody told me that they were going to try I want to hear I want because it's an alternative Ddub said, yeah the 2023 herd change was updating the copyright change to 2023 the points. Okay, you You can't hold that against them. DWM literally did that for 6.2 Okay, and since then they've updated a couple times, but that was literally all they did was change one line to the version number That's all they did and that was after years of being on 6.1 like years now. They've like I said, they've since updated more but That doesn't mean that's not still updated I'm sorry, but that is oh legendary But like as much as you can hurl the suck list suck list is dudes way that is probably the The boldest move I've I've ever heard of years of not updating And I mean it's DWM. You really don't have to but anyway Then they finally decided to give a version change and the version change includes the version change That's it was it was six that one six that two was literally one line. It was that's what it was That's all it was now like said I respect. Yeah Anyways that we probably could go on for a little while longer But we're gonna go ahead and move into the the the nuggies of the week because they asked for a short episode We did not deliver That is for sure Boyan Orion says herd only works well in an isolated vm environment at the moment That doesn't actually surprise me all that much but Even if you use it in a vm, I'd like to hear from you v email Just send me an email send me a screenshot of something of you doing something in herd or in a in a Distro that uses canoe herd I'd love to see it just because I have it's it's like fucking big foot, you know Does it exist doesn't actually exist it says it exists, but does it really I want to see it anyways I'm very interested Before we move on I was gonna say so Darius has asked twice now. Why do you guys don't mention bsd? And mainly because well bsd is like an actual like operating system. You can really really run Hurt us not so it's a little bit more interesting to talk about also Read the title of the podcast We'll just leave it there. Wait. Hold on. Can you get system d on free bsd? Like could you get it working? I mean if you worked hard enough probably but why would you want to? that it Good point good point I mean somebody that knows way more about bsd than I do would probably have to answer that to know For sure, but it seems like it'd be because you can basically do anything you want if you work hard enough for it I mean that sounds very Alexi says no Alexi usually knows these things but I would be contrary about that like just say if you work hard enough for something you probably could but The amount of work you have to put into it is probably can measure it with the The outcome of all this so it it it probably be very very difficult if it's possible at all But also again, why would you put the effort in because it has its own In its services and stuff so Anyways Moving on to the nuggies of the week you guys by the way by the way if you have thoughts On the whole system d argument that we didn't cover or that you just you know Have your own personal opinion either leave them in the comment section below Or email us and we'll cover them on a on a future episode because we would love to hear from you guys User feedback slash user interaction is always a good thing and it's not just the chat So if you want to actually take part in the chat in the future You can always do so by heading over to the linux cast YouTube channel youtube.com slash linux cast subscribe We do this every saturday record every three at three o'clock p.m. Eastern time And then you can be in the chat and be awesome just like everybody who is here And not awesome like the people who are not here But you're you're kind of awesome, but you're not as awesome as if you're here live I'm in a lot of trouble anyway. I'm gonna be honest with you man. I am sweating balls I've got I turned that heater on and I forgot and I thought I was getting sick for a second because I'm like, dude I'm getting real hot. Like I don't know what's going on. Dude. I just now realized this probably like 85 degrees in this freaking room I will do my nuggy of the week. You go turn that off. Okay Okay, cool. All right, so my My nuggies of the week for the there for the foreseeable future were probably books just because I've been reading a lot I was when I've had time And the last book that I finished was a cozy fantasy called legends and lattes It is a A fantastic book. Let's let me actually look at the author's name. The author's name is travis baldry And it is a fantastic little book. It's very short and very Low stakes. So if you're gonna get in it's not very it's not high fantasy. It's very short and it's basically It's a coffee shop fantasy is basically what it is Quite literally it's very very very just low level very, you know Dare I say sweet, you know that the character interaction is very good. So if you're into cozy fantasy Which I didn't think I was into cozy fantasy, but I read that and it was my first five star of the Of the week of the year. So Very good book. Definitely check it out if you're into that kind of stuff right now I'm you I'm 30 pages away from finishing tress of the emerald sea by brandon sanderson And I desperately want to get back to finish that book because had that book that book brandon sanderson guys That boy knows how to write Very very good. Anyways, that's my nuggy of the week Check it out if you want to tyler you're a nuggy of the week My nuggy of the week is is going to be kind of different because it's not really a piece of software actually What it is is I want to recommend Absolutely phenomenal tv show. I've been watching recently you can you can get it on netflix I think it's on Pretty much every other streaming platform pretty sure but designated survivor if if you want a good show with Like political drama, which I mean is what it is like I'm not super big into politics, but at least the drama aspect of it I find interesting and like how people are screwing each other over and like, you know, all that kind of stuff it's got Action got hot girls for those of you out there that you know like this and appreciate this hot guys as well It's it's got everything dude It's got all the actors are actually really good like really really good like phenomenal actors It's a great show. I really like it the story is interesting And um, yeah, that's been something that I haven't really started binging a show Recently like I've been watching doctor who but I I've always liked doctor who But I haven't really been binging it me and my mom have started binge watching this together It's a very good show like it and it's also not you know, it's not the new tv shows that come out where it's like You know, it's not something you you definitely couldn't watch with you know your mother or family so It's nice. It's a good show good writing too. That sounds awesome. Ty. I'm going to check that out Give it a go. I mean like the opening episode is For a pilot it is a damn good opening like It really does get you interested And it's also not slow. Just so you know, that's another thing. I'll say For those of you who can't get into a show if it's slow, this one's not slow. So Definitely definitely check it out. It's a great show. Cool. All right. Someone asked what the future of open susa leap is real quick I put a link in the chat you can check the It's called the adaptable linux platform. That's going to be the future of open susa leap There is going to be a version 16 of leap But it's going to be like the last one ever probably It's the future of it's very very up in the air I know it's been 15 for a very long time. Just pro tip if you're going to use open susa. Just use tumbleweed. It's it's the best All right, anyways That is it for this episode of the linux cast if you want to get in contact with us You can do so in any number of ways the best way is to head on over to the website Which is available at the linux cast dot org there You'll find previous blog posts that i've posted Also every single episode all the way back to season one if you want to binge those things I swear That someone actually did that somebody said i've been binging all of the episodes all the way back to season one You poor sod Some of those are Not great. That's a That's a lot of catch up Yeah, that's a lot because we've done over 150 episodes by the way, so Actually, what what episode number are we on? I numbered We're all like Well, I know the show notes like numbering is a little different, but it's about like 807 Well, no 808 is so that's just the season Yeah, yeah, I I know but I put it the episode id that's at the top of all the show notes is the episode number I've literally Never paid attention to that so 134. So I guess we're not quite at 150 yet So 134 is where we're at close enough brother close enough. Yeah, we're Maybe we'll have to do something special for 150 because What we'll be getting there this year somewhere in the 150 ranch But anyways head on over to the the website That's where you find all of those previous episodes if you want to actually See those that the video if there is a video and all the audio is there as well You can find all of tyler's contact information on the website as well But you can head on over to his youtube channel, which he actually does have a youtube channel He just doesn't use it consistently. Yes. My upload schedule is terrible. I apologize Also, before we continue on with this Phenomenal phenomenal portion of the show Just know I will be in matt's discord server after this call in one of the voice chat rooms So if you want to come talk swing on by just thought I'd go ahead throw that in there YouTube.com slash the any og if you want to check that out because he will eventually post again Probably after his next call out from open from mental outlaw Yeah, and then I'll change up my content completely. Yeah when he shouts me out for doing something I'll change instantly never going to live that down ever I'll I'll see to it. I mean that timing was crazy. It was it was great like Like biggest content creator in the linux sphere calls you out About something you no longer do Right after I stopped doing it like Anyways, the linuxcast.org slash contact is where you'll find all the contact information that you'll ever need including the discord servers Links to the email links to mastodon all that stuff linuxcast.org slash contact You can also support me on patreon patreon.com slash linuxcast or you can head on over to the store Where you'll find all sorts of awesome merch including stickers and hoodies and hats and t-shirts and desk mats and backpacks and all sorts of stuff That's available at shop dot the linuxcast.org I appreciate all those of you who have bought merch and speaking of merch tyler actually has something on his Body right now that is merch. Um, yeah, uh, the nuggies t-shirts one still available later Still available nominal shirts dude like these shirts. I'm telling you man. They're they're comfy as hell They're they're they're just they're great. They the thing I had to buy one of these for my sister So she wouldn't take mine um Because she loves penguins and she also loves nuggies so I had to buy her a blue one. So yeah, trust me when I say they are good shirts and I laugh every time I see my sister and hers. It is genuinely hilarious So just so you know, my sister is walking around town with that shirt on frequently Very freaky that's hilarious Anyways shop that the linuxcast.org. Thanks to everybody who doesn't support me on patreon and youtube because you're all Awesome. Uh, thank you so much for your support. I truly do appreciate that And I did finally get the end screen credits actually up to date As of the last couple days, so everybody should be in their proper place, which is a good thing again So thank you so very much for your support. If you want to watch us live We do record this live every saturday at three o'clock p.m. Eastern time. We've never missed an episode. Um, that's at an absolute lie But the vast majority of saturdays. We're here at three o'clock p.m. Eastern time on the linuxcast youtube channel Being awesome. You should come be awesome too. So we'll be here here next week. We're gonna do a Tier list of color schemes. That's what we're gonna do next week. So that should be fun. Anyways, we'll see you next team next time See you later. Thanks for watching boy