 We are back on July 3rd, which you may know is the day before July 4th, which you may know is Independence Day in this country. And we're going to celebrate Independence Day together. Brigadier General Stan Osserman, what, Hawaii National Guard? They get that right? Yes, National Guard. Their National Guard. Retired. Okay. And active duty, chief, Master Sergeant Westcott Lee. What did I miss? The Hawaii National Guard also. Okay, Hawaii National Guard, okay. And the title of our show is, we're going to talk about patriotism on July 4th. And we're going to try to distinguish how his patriotism changed for us, for others, in recent years. Okay, who wants to go first? Stan, you. You're a senior man among us, yeah. So you want me to focus on patriotism and how it's changed? Because I would say patriotism... What does July 4th mean for you? But for me, patriotism and July 4th talks about the basic structure of our country. And for me, the basic structure of our country starts with this document right here called the Constitution. It's the framing of how our government should be set up. It divides the powers between the leaders of the country, and it gives the ultimate power of choice to the people themselves. So it was the first document in recorded mankind that actually gave the power of rule to the ruled instead of kings and dictators. And so I think for me, patriotism is our form of government. It's a love of our form of government as a government that stands out as being controlled by the people, of buying for the people. And the whole structure is in this very small, very concise, very beautifully crafted document. I'm thinking, though, that the Independence Day is named after the, well, at least more directly related to the Declaration of Independence. Correct. How would you fold that into those remarks? Well, it's interesting, putting a slant on it like this, back in those days when we declared independence from England. The people who declared independence from England were called liberals. And the people that wanted to stay under the British monarchy were conservatives. The people who wanted to stay under the British monarchy wanted to keep things to status quo. And today it's 180 out. The people that want to stay with our Constitution and follow this as closely as possible are the conservatives. And the people who want to change and make us more of a global government, global community, globally connected government and rule, or at least part of a generally more universal experience with the rest of the world in terms of leadership and guidance and following things like the United Nations kind of things or League of Nations, that's what liberal and conservative have really switched 180 from the time the Constitution was written until now. But I consider myself a current day conservative that believes in the Constitution as written. Wes, you've had how many years in the service? Too much. Too much years. Almost 40 years. 40 years. That's some kind of all time record. Half of the time I've been an E9. So yeah, so tomorrow is July 4th. You probably have some thoughts about that. You've committed, essentially you've committed your life to the country and to defending the country. Yeah, no, it's true, isn't it? I know it's true. I have to give it a mile. You must have some thoughts about that. What are your thoughts on July 4th? July 4th, I'm spot on with you about the Declaration of Independence, 1776. July 4th. In my reflection of July 4th, I look at the 19th of April, 1775, Lexington Green, Concord, Massachusetts, Old North Creek, where brave men stood fast and started the country. Shot hurt around the world. Shot hurt around the world. That's your garden. And they were absolutely, we talk about patriots. We talk about the minutemen. We talk about the militia. We talk about the National Guard. Absolutely. So that's what I reflect on every time I think July comes around. I'm very emotional about patriotism. I always was actually, and it wasn't only because I was in the service and I got to see a lot of things, although that was a big part of it, because I monitored American history and college is why. And I got to see that whole panoply there of the 19th century and the 20th century and how the labels changed and how people interpreted the Constitution and how they built the country. And it was imperfect, of course. Humankind is imperfect and so governments are imperfect as well. But this is really special and it's groundbreaking. It was in 1775 and it is still groundbreaking in its own way. It's still part of a great experiment. I think of three icons which Haley E. K. had got for me for this discussion. One of them, and I'll tell you the sequence I think of them in terms of, one of them is Normandy. My wife and I went to Normandy a few years ago with a specific intention of looking at the American cemetery. And I knew it was going to be a powerful experience, but it was far more powerful. You know, can we see those pictures than I ever imagined? It was just, it blew you away to be there. It blew you away to see those, to see the cemetery. Yeah, it was one of the most memorable and profound experiences I've ever had. And you can see all of World War II. You can see, you know, the greatest generation. You can see, you know, Omaha Beach, which is very close by. And I said to myself, you know, we, this country, we saved the world in that war. Imagine what would have happened had we not entered that war. Exactly. In both sides of the globe. So that's really important to me. Perhaps more than any other war, although I mentioned when I wrote to you guys that the Civil War is still, you know, probably the most profound and stark event that ever took place in the country in order to cement it together, to make it real, to, you know, to patch up the problems that had arisen over slavery in the 17th, 18th, 19th century. And then my second icon, my second icon, I have pictures of that, too. What was my second icon? Oh, yeah, no, no, that was my second icon was coming on notes, wrong show. Well, I'll go to the Statue of Liberty, the Statue of Liberty, very powerful. I mean, I grew up in New York. And, you know, surrounded New York is a very diverse place, probably for a long time, the most diverse place in the country, really, because all the immigrants came there. And although some immigrants, you know, went to the Midwest, you know, most of them stayed in New York. They stayed in the Tenements and they looked out over, over Brooklyn. They looked out into the harbor and there was a Statue of Liberty. And on the base of the Statue of Liberty was a poem written by Emma Lazarus, who was actually the daughter of a wealthy capitalist, believe it or not. And she wrote this poem that sticks in my mind. I'm going to read part of it to you now, which I feel is, you know, the most touching right now. It's called The New Colossus. You probably haven't heard the title before, but that's the title of the poem. And I won't read the, well, I'll read the whole opening. Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame with conquering limbs astride from land to land. Here at our seawash sunset gates shall stand a mighty woman, the Statue of Liberty, from France, with the torch whose flame is the imprisoned lightning and her name, Mother of Exiles. That's the Statue of Liberty, Mother of Exiles. From her beacon hand glows worldwide welcome. Her mild eyes command the air bridge tovour. Air bridge, gutty, that twin city's frame. Keep ancient lands. You got to do this right. Keep ancient lands. Your storied pomp. Pomp's not a good thing. Cry's she with silent lips. Now, here's the, here's the, the clincher. The clincher. This is a clincher. This is the part that that takes me up the wall. Give me your tired, your poor, your huggled masses. Yearning to breathe free. The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door. Oh, powerful stuff. 1883 or so. And, you know, that's been the case since then in the immigrant teeming immigrant city of New York then. And since then in the whole country really is, is teeming. I got to say, Canada is also teeming. But that's just his immigrants. America. Yeah, it's America. My job. My job. Yeah, everybody says really. I mean, the number of people who are not immigrants in this country is a small percentage. Yeah, no work land of immigrants. So I'm very touched by that poem. In fact, I have an emotional reaction to that as I did when I visited Normandy. And the third point, which I just remembered is this. Talk to a member of my family about this show and I want to get input. And what he said to me is what I would like to say to you is, you know, the country has had a bad time, not just in the Trump administration, but over the past 20, 30 years. We have seen divisiveness. You've seen ineffective government. We have seen all kinds of huge mistakes. The last war we actually won for an important purpose is the Second World War. Exactly. The rest of it, not so good. And all these programs and initiatives including immigration haven't worked. We haven't really attended to it. The country has had a problem. And the question is, where are we now that we should feel either patriotic, optimistic, or not? And his comment to me, which I take to heart is, we are in a time here on July 4th when all these cans that have been kicked down the road, all these controversies have been buried and marginalized and not addressed for decades are becoming addressed. They are being discussed. Who knows what action will be taken or not in the years to come. But we are now on a July 4th at a July 4th where we can see those issues emerging. We can see those issues in discussion, possibly in resolution. Among disparate groups, divided camps, if you will. And this could be the greatest moment for the country. I would say, Bravo. But I'd also like to point out that we've had a lot of tumultuous time in our nation's history. And the one big difference we have today is that the cans have been kicked down the road. And the immediate communications we have in today's world allow for a lot of knee-jerk reaction to solving problems instead of thoughtful, well-thought-out, strategically-planned solutions. It's too easy to throw around the word liar or racist or socialist or whatever when somebody says something and that doesn't get us to solve the problems. We need to be solution-oriented, not name-calling-oriented. And whether it's a media cycle, whether it's people just trying to get their minute of fame and glory and have their name in the papers or in the history books, they're taking advantage of today's technologies to exacerbate what's going on in our country. Let me point out that before World War Two, by the time the U.S. entered World War Two, how much of Europe was under Nazi control? The whole thing, Poland, Czechoslovakia, France, Belgium, Britain, so nightmare, literally everything but landing in Britain was. But I mean, Britain was on its knees. They were virtually at the doorstep of Nazi Germany. And the only reason that we got in there was because Nazi Germany's ally, Japan, bombed Honolulu. And that brought us into the war because Germany declared war on the U.S. There was a huge pushback from this country to enter World War Two. Charles Lindbergh, one of our most famous aviators, was a member of the American Nazi Party trying to keep America out of World War Two. You know, Radio City Musical is one of the biggest theaters in New York. Big, really big, thousands of seats. And on two occasions, I want to say, 1934 and 1938, there were Nazi rallies complete with this. Sure. In the Radio City Musical, where thousands of people came and praised the virtues of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party. Unbelievable, this happened in New York City, a city of immigrants. And yet, you know, there were a lot of people who would never have gone to war against Germany. They they like Germany. So you're right, I agree that had it not been for Pearl Harbor, well, but things would have been different. We entered that war without hesitation once we entered and the world was forever changed. I agree. We saved the world, honestly. We didn't make we didn't make Europe our 50 or 49th and 50th state. Well, in a sense, we did. We lent them our our constitution, our ways. They they shared a lot with us. We provided leadership for all that time. So, Wes, you haven't said anything. That's because, you know, you're surrounded with all these profound statements from the general. All these big ideas. Outranks you, yeah. Now for the real the real side. Oh, my God. What would you add or subtract from that? You know, I we talk about sacrifices when we signed that dot in line or raised our right hand. That's patriotism. That's that's serving. I'm part of our lot, part of what we as a veteran have a common bond. And it's amazing when you sit with the old timers and you start talking about different areas in war, World War Two, Vietnam, Korean. When they sit and they talk, there's all this commonality comes across. And so when you talk about where the country is gone or the effects that come with it, again, when I talk about the Fourth of July and independence and about why they stood on their own, why they stood back and looked for to be sovereign. Those countries, that's what they saw if there was to be sovereign from or released from Germany. And what we did as as Americans, as United States of America was freed in from that. That's what we do now. My son today is in the desert, assisting another country, looking for independence. And just before that, he was on the big island, helping with lava flows out of the National Guard Dhamma. General knows a lot about it. When you talk about patriotism, you talk about sacrifices, you talk about serving. That's that's what it's about because I can't control everything else that's out there other than my vote and my voice. But you know, you hit something on the head when you talked about today with the media, with the access of media, which increases education, which also increases this opinion, multiple opinions, through false or in different. Well, do you think our generation, by the way, that think about sacrifice is really inherent in the cemetery, both here in Punchbowl or Pacific and Normandy, of course, the willingness to go into battle and be ready to die. And that that takes me to a question I want to ask you, is do you think our generation roughly in the same generation give a take? You think our generation is more patriotic than the generations that follow? The ones who never had a cope with the draft? The ones who were never even asked to make those sacrifices? No, I'd say it's a matter of growing into it. I'd say the more you learn about history, the more you learn about the history of our country and the world, the more you learn about the military and the sacrifices that military members make and families of military members that you become to you come to appreciate sacrifice and patriotism. I think it's something that you learn and you grow into. I think some of the symptoms I see now are people who are not necessarily given a liberal education, but given a fairly limited education in civics. And maybe are even being indoctrinated, winningly or unwittingly by the professors that teach them. And don't let them appreciate the great things about our country. As our country done really terrible things, we dropped the only nuclear weapon in history, weapons in history. We didn't do it once, we did it twice. I feel sorry for American Indians and what they went through in our country. But if you look at in the context of history, United States didn't invent slavery. Slavery was common and still is common all over the world. But we certainly abolished it. We fought a civil war where more Americans died in that war than in many, many other wars put together to get rid of slavery. And I think that's something that's worth celebrating. And it was fought by soldiers. So you spoke about planning and action and all that, but I think, you know, my third point reveals that we have ideological differences. These have been building up for a long time about, you know, the social safety net, about taking care of people or not. About the way you handle capital, the way you handle business, the way you handle, you know, the operation of government itself. And of course, the Constitution is and should be a framework for all that. But the reality is we have some fundamental disagreements about how human beings get along together in the compact of a democratic state. And I, you know, before we get to the planning, what about the resolution of those ideological differences? How are we going to resolve them? Because we have to have some optimism, you know, here on July 4th that we will be able to do that. How are we going to come together in a country that is so divided on so many things, especially including ideological things? I'd say the first thing and the most critical thing is the First Amendment to the Constitution, freedom of speech. When you can't go to a college campus today because you're not speaking the right way and you're not only shouted down, but literally physically attacked and you start riots because nobody wants to let you speak. They've prejudged you, which is the definition of prejudice and discrimination and bigotry. That has no place in public discourse. So give me a solution. So we need to have both sides tone down the rhetoric. Quit trying to make the sound bites for the media to get your name and fortune on TV. I hear you saying it's a recommitment to some notion. What is the notion? The notion of civility. The notion of respect. Have you ever seen any of our politicians call President Trump a liar to his face? No, but they do it in the media every day. And vice versa. President Trump slams other people on Twitter, on Facebook. That's not the way to take care of things. The way our government was set up was in the halls of Congress to debate these things civility and talk about it and solve it because most of these things we're talking past each other. Many times and I've seen it over and over and over again, even in my work, that two engineers can be saying the exact same thing and be arguing to the Hill, to the Hill. Talk about listening. Yeah, they don't know how. We've lost the skills to listen. We've lost the skills of critical thinking. We've lost the skills of communication where it's listen. Listen till you can repeat back the other person's point so they know you understand and then turn around and listen to your point and your side of it, because I see that every day. Some pundit on TV makes like he's a big international affairs professional and tears apart whatever the president is doing in North Korea. And yet he I have a master's in international relations. And I'm going, the guy's full of baloney, but he's got the public stage and he's sitting there starting a literal war, you know, of words. So we all need to sort of reinvent the way we deal with controversies, the way we deal with people that do not agree with us. Exactly. Yeah. But I mean, how how do you ask your chief? How do you do that? How do you how do you start that up? If I made you governor, president, if I made you both houses of Congress, both of them. We'd go to the beach. What would you do? We'd go to the service. We'd go to the service and talk to you. Come away and find some aloha. Aloha, you know, this is really an important concept that we can share with the world. And maybe that's why we get it. Find aloha. It's aloha, you know, because General General Hossam and Mint talks about is about the fact that true or false, it becomes fact. True or false, it's fact. It's said. And I believe in the three C's, character, competence, courage. Those are the three things that we live by. Character, not knowing the difference between right or wrong, that's education, but character is choosing right from wrong and understanding that when you're standing there in public, understanding that difference. Competence. You got to be confident to be up there and standing on behalf of the people. If I'm speaking on behalf of the people, I must be confident at it. And if I'm not, then you might want to choose another career. And the third courage, the courage to stand up and speak. And even if you're beat down, they'll get back up with that courage to say, I'm going to move on. I'm going to continue because character was in play. Competence was in play. And I've got the courage to say it. Yeah, I'm going to talk about education. I think we all agree completely that education has not been up to the task, not only in the free speech on the campuses, but on educating people about American history. I mean, how can you understand the Constitution? How can you understand the trouble we've seen as a country, the lessons we've learned unless you know about American history? And sadly, I don't think it's taught in the school, but I do want to ask you, and it should be, but I do want to ask you about the draft. And I say the draft, I not only mean the draft as a military draft, I mean, Vista and, you know, some of those other programs. Say it again. Peace Corps. Yeah, Peace Corps. Good example. Good example. Yeah. You know, because I think what's happened and see if you guys agree with me is that we have shoved off from the national government. We we don't see ourselves as part of it, except paying taxes, maybe and not getting indicted for federal crimes. But, you know, really, we've shoved off the national government. We don't see it as representing us and we don't see, you know, us as indebted or involved with the national government. We don't want to participate. A lot of us. And that goes to the draft. And it goes to Peace Corps and Vista and all that stuff because most kids coming up now, I should say kids, but generations younger than we are have not had federal service. They have no real understanding what it is to be connected with part of the federal government. Wouldn't you support a reinvigoration of the Peace Corps? Wouldn't you support a reinvigoration of the draft? Wouldn't that be good for this conversation that stands talking about? Absolutely. You know, it's unfair because we, being veterans, look at it in that perspective. However, I absolutely believe that everyone should serve. I think they should bring back the draft. I was asked that question by some young NCOs in application to do you believe that someone who joins the Guard of the Reserve must have prior service experience? And I said, I don't believe that. I believe should bring back the draft, multiple reasons. One is that foundation, establishing that foundation is very difficult for an understand looking outside in. But as a veteran, as some of the common bond, there are education, there is experiencing, there's wisdom from the experience that comes about. And then on your way following, do I choose to my career as a military member or do I go out and do I serve my country? Do I serve my community? So I absolutely, in that retrospect, as you believe that, I like to see a draft. However, very difficult to this time because you talked about the young kids of today. I'm going to give you credit for brilliance because you basically brought us back around to the main subject, which is patriotism. You can't have patriotism without pride in your nation. Yes. You don't have any ownership in the nation by a great number of people because they don't feel part of this country. When you become part of the military, you know you're part of this country. Your life is on the line for anything that the executive branch says happens and Congress approves, you're going. And you could pay for it with your life. But when you join something like Peace Corps, the medical services, you know, this stuff, and you learn a lot, that character-building experience that Chief talked about. You learn commitment. You learn self-sacrifice. You learn self-discipline. And I'd say all the things that we're really lacking in our society today, self-discipline is one of them. We have a credit card debt out the roof because people can't sit there and control what they spend because any commercial they see on TV, they won't buy it, even though they can't afford it, even though they don't need it. And then on the other side, you've got people selling stuff that you don't need, and they're forcing it on you and taking advantage of your gullibility. Well, discipline in the military is everything. When the world generates into chaos and combat, it's training and discipline that gets you back on track. Ask any Marine. Ask anybody that's in that situation. And they'll tell you, I fell back on my training. It was my discipline that kept me going. It was my partner's son left and right. That's what did it. And that's what builds that common core of national patriotism that you need. Yeah, to recognize, on July 4th, tomorrow, to recognize that we are the government. The government is us. We are inextricably intertwined. And we better remember that and guide ourselves by that. Thank you very much, Chief. Great to talk to you. And, General, thank you very much. Aloha, you guys. Aloha. I beat your life for it. Very much for you, too. Independence Day.