 Joining us today, I'm just going to say a few words of introduction to this webinar and to our community and then we'll get started. Heritage Preservation is moderating the Connecting to Collections online community in cooperation with the American Association for State and Local History and with funding from the Institute of Museum and Library Services. The site is designed and produced by Learning Times. The goal of the online community is to help smaller museums, libraries, archives and historical societies quickly locate reliable preservation resources and network with their colleagues. In developing the community, we have drawn on many resources that were developed for the Connecting to Collections initiative including the bookshelf and the Raising the Bars workshops and webinars and we have links to these resources filed under the topics menu on the site at www.connectingtocollections.org. We will also file a recording of today's webinar there. About twice a month, the Connecting to Collections online community features a particularly helpful preservation resource and hosts a webinar related to it. The resources we posted for today's webinar can be accessed by clicking this photo on our webpage. So, today I am very pleased to welcome our featured experts, both of whom are joining us from the Shelburne Museum in Shelburne, Vermont. Rick Kirschner is the Director of Preservation and Conservation there and Nancy Ravenel is the Objects Conservator there. Welcome to you both and thank you so much for joining us today. I'm hoping you'll tell us a little bit about yourself. Rick, would you like to go first, please? Sure. I've graduated conservation program from Cooperstown in 1982. I moved right to the Shelburne Museum where I set up the program in conservation. And I've been here for the last 30 years. Once you get to Vermont, it's hard to get out. And then we noticed about a number of years ago that we certainly did a second person and that's when we hired on Nancy. My specialty is really the conservation administration, grant writing, and preventive conservation. And Nancy handles much of the treatment. Okay, great. Thank you, Rick. Nancy, do you want to say something? Well, he just basically covered me. Yeah, Rick does the preventive conservation. He looks after the buildings and the environments within them. And I am tasked with doing repairs to the objects, ensuring that I'm working with the preparators and to make the mouths for exhibitions. And also just keeping an eye on what he's doing because what he does has an impact on how I do my treatments. Okay, thank you. Okay, to start us off we're going to have some polls and some open chat questions. These open chat questions are part of a little door prize program that we have. But we give out some books from the Connecting to Collections bookshelf. So there's our first poll and here's our first open chat. And if you could describe your collection in that box, that would be great. We'll have some idea of what we're lighting. Okay, looks like an overwhelming majority are from museums, which I expected with this topic. Should we talk a little bit about what Shelburne Museum is for those who might not? Sure. So Shelburne Museum is a museum on 40 acres up here. We have 39 exhibition buildings, which kind of run the gamut from historic house kind of displays to more traditional gallery spaces. So we've got, and then some of the buildings are historic buildings that have been converted into gallery spaces. We do all kinds of different lighting situations in our structures. And I'm seeing all kinds of different responses to the describing in the collection, different sizes of things. I imagine these all have different lighting requirements. Furniture, fine art, archives, yeah. Okay, I'm going to take away our first poll while people continue to answer that second one and pull up a few more. These poll questions give us some idea of who you are there in our audience. Yeah, there's no surprise. Okay, so there'll probably be a lot of good questions about retrofitting there based on what you're hearing in poll number three. Alrighty, a few more. Somebody mentioned they use compact fluorescence. We can certainly improve that with LEDs. Okay, and here is our last poll. Okay, a combination of both gallery lighting and encased lighting and generally about two to five exhibits are currently LED-lit. For those that are lighting? Yeah, and that was not very many, I think, from the earlier polls. Okay, well, I think we should get started. I'm going to pull these away. Thanks, everybody, for your responses. We're saving them off to the edge. And Rick, I will pull over that presentation now. Okay, Mike, feel free to adjust that if I've got the sizing at all wrong, but I think we're ready to go ahead. Thanks. Okay, looks good. I have a total of about 20, 25 slides. I'll go through them in groups and you take questions as you welcome to write the questions at any time, of course, without the questions in the way down. I really have to get some basics out of the way before we even get going with questions. First of all, you see a picture right here on what a gallery looks like when it's lit by LEDs. And as you can see, it's really quite attractive. I couldn't say that a few years ago. In fact, it wasn't until about 2010 that we've been working with LEDs now for over nine years at Shelburne. And at the end of 2010, they finally got to the point where we could look at these retrofit bulbs that just screw out your regular tungsten halogen and screw in a LED to be bright enough to have the right beam width, to have constant temperature, all the things we need and like and lighting to move forward with them. Okay, next slide. What do LEDs look like? Well, here we have on the left, we've tungsten halogen MR-16s. You all familiar with what the MR lights are, I'm sure the small two-inch lights. Some are line voltage and some are low voltage and we'll talk more about them later. On the right, you see an MR-16 Phillips LED. It's about 3,000 degrees Kelvin. Kelvin's how we measure the temperature of the light or the higher the degree Kelvin, the higher the temperature, the bluer the light and the lower the temperature, the yellower the light. So on the left, that one's about 2,700 most tungsten halogen about 2,700 degrees. And you can see it's more yellow. And on the right, you can see that the blues show up a little better than on the left and certainly the gold frame is a little cooler because the light's cooler. And overall we found that when we put this 3,000 degree LED on, it seems to kind of pop up the light, pop up the picture and we especially like how the skies are looking in our paintings under a little bit bluer light. The one on the left has a CRI, which is the color rendering index. It's how we compare LED's to tungsten halogen. And the one on the left is 100 because that's by definition what CRI is for tungsten bulbs. On the right, we have a CRI of 82 and that tells you it's not quite up to 100. As we move forward, I'll talk more about it, but the CRI I haven't found real useful as long as it's above about 85. More important is how it actually looks to the viewer's eye. Okay, next slide. There are four pictures. One on the left is under halogen, one under right under a Phillips LED MR16. And I picked this picture just because there's more blue in it and more white in the sky. And you can see what I mean that it kind of pops the picture up a bit on the right. I'm sorry, these are a bit blurry. I didn't have my focus real good on these. Next slide. Here's a print with a white border surrounding it. On the left is the tungsten halogen. On the right, you can pick out under CRI those blue columns look a little more blue and also the white looks whiter of the matte. You'll also notice that this has more of a spotlight on the right and that's something you've got to watch for. The left is more of a flood, so it's more evenly lit. And some folks would, because this is an older print and kind of yellow paper, like the looks of the one on the left better. So everything won't look necessarily better to everybody's eye under LEDs. But it just shows some of the difference. Rick, can I just interject one thing? Sure. I think one thing that I thought was interesting on this image when I first saw it, I was kind of taken aback because there was no time in between taking the slide on the left with the tungsten halogen and the right. There was no cleaning done. I think it really speaks volume about how this can impact the way your artifacts look under these lights. Yeah, good point. Okay, there we go. Next slide. Okay, so how do you evaluate LEDs? One day one of our electricians came in and said, hey, we're going to get our local efficiency utility will pay us to go to LEDs. Essentially, they'll buy all the LEDs for us for free. I found one online. Let's buy a thousand of these bulbs and put them in. Well, for the next two months, then I ended up evaluating LEDs because that's not the way that you can pick LEDs. First thing you've got to do is get hold of a number of different LEDs. They are expensive to get hold of even, but you can go to distributors and they'll often, if they don't give you some samples, they'll loan them to you. So you pick several and you broadcast them under white wall, like we see here. The attachments that you have access to, it's the gateway study with the Jordan Schnitzer Museum. They've done a beautiful job in this report. And what you see on this wall is in the far wall is the Texas halogen all the way in the back. And let's see if I can find my arrow here. So that's the tungsten halogen. These are all LEDs and you can immediately see how different they are. These first two are probably floods, which is probably a 40-degree beam angle or even greater than that. And then the next two are probably spots and those will be maybe a 28-degree angle. The first one is certainly wider or the first one is yellow or the second one is wider. And then you can also see how crisp the lines are under spots down here. So that's just some of the things you need to pay attention to. And what we do is once we have it set up like this, we got everybody who might be interested in the museum to come in and take a look at it. That included the exhibition people, the electrician, the conservators, the curators, and the director, anybody who might have anything to do with it. And often you'll come down to a pretty good consensus on which light is best. You can see the one they ended up picking in here is this one here. And you can see why it looks very similar to Halogen on the far wall. The other thing you can do is have a painting that you can move between the various lights and look at them under each light and even a print or several other works of art that you can look at under each light to come to consensus on what type of light you're looking for. Okay, if there's any questions that want to come in on how the LED lights look, anything I could talk about so far, I'll get that to monitor those. And if not, I'll just continue on. Okay, let's see. Can I pick the next one? Yeah, here we go. Here are some LEDs in tungsten halogen side-by-side in a gallery on a gray wall. And on the left, you see here is a Part 30 bulb. And a Part 30 would be about a 3 3 quarter inch wide bulb. And next to a Part 20 LED. So a tungsten halogen next to an LED. And you can see the LED is 3,000 degrees. And it's going to be wider. Part 20 is a smaller light. It's only about 2 and 3 quarter inches. So of course it's going to be a smaller beam coming out there. Here we have the same tungsten halogen. And it's next to a Part 20 LED 2700. And this is more of a narrow flood, as you can see. It's brighter in the middle, so it's not as wide. It does look a little wider, but if you look around the edges of this beam here, you can see that it's very close to the tungsten halogen at 2,700. And then here's two LEDs, the tungsten halogen, and the 2,700 and the 3,000. And you can see a nice difference between them. What we found when we were looking here, we liked the 3,000 pretty much for most of our works of art on paper and paintings and three-dimensional works of art with painted surfaces. Where we found that the 2,700 was particularly good for lighting up our barn structures. Any natural wood, where you have a lot of brown wood up toward the ceiling. If you put the 3,000, which is a bluer light, it kind of makes the whole place look ghostly. And then we have a lot of carriages that are very dark surfaces, horse-drawn vehicles. They were black. They also look much better under the warmer light. But in general, of the 1,000 balls we replaced, I'd say about 100 of them, and later 900 of them were the LED 3,000. We've had those in place for one year now, and we have not had any complaints at all from visitors. I don't even think that visitors notice too much of a difference. But we are very pleased with how the artifacts are looking under these balls. Okay, we'll move on to how do you select the LEDs? And one of the first things you need to look at is the boxes. And here we have one of our boxes of a Sylvania Ultra LED. These are the main par bulbs that we use. Now par means parabolic reflector. See right up here? This is a par 30. I've been talking about these different numbers. What you do is take the number you see and divide it by 8, because they're measured in 1,8-inch units. So this would be about a, well, there's 24. Three and three-quarter inch wide light across the top. And then 40 degrees, flood. It's a floodlight. And then moving on down, 3,000K. We've been talking about that already. Here's our CSI. This is 87. It's not as high as some of them, but it's high enough to certainly get in there and test. I'd say anything above 80 you want to take a look at. 15 watts, familiar with that. Now here we have light outputs. Light outputs is in lumens. Lumens is something that you may not be too familiar with. Most of us are measuring in foot candles or in lugs. And lumens actually is more related to the way that the eye sees the... sees light. You could have a 100-watt bulb that's an ultraviolet bulb and the lumens would be zero because you can't see ultraviolet light. So I think this is something we'll get used to. It's a new measurement that we're looking at. It's a nice way to compare different types of light like LSD, CFL, everything else. But it's mainly the output that the eye will detect. Energy used in watts, this is a 15-watt bulb. The light, the L70. And this is 50,000 hours. And that is now a standard. It's been dropped up to the industry on how long it would take until the intensity of the light drops to 70% of the original intensity. And the reason they picked that amount, 70%, is when it drops more than 30%, that's when your eye can really discern that it's starting to get dim. Above 70%, you really can't notice much of a dimming. So this bulb supposedly is going to last us 50,000 hours. And that, of course, is one of the advantages of LEDs. The one that they're pushing very hard is, yes, they may be more expensive, but they're going to last much longer time. And then the CBCP, this is another new measurement we're seeing on lights. And it's the center beam candle power. That's right in the center of the beam. All this really tells you is if you had to hire this number, the more of a spotlight you have because the center of the beam is brighter. And the lower the number, the more diffuse the light if you're probably looking at the flood, especially if the energy uses it just same. And the next slide. Okay, there we go. The main thing I want to point out here is that some of our LEDs especially have started to compare the LEDs to a similar bulb, tungsten halogen bulb. So here we have a, on the right is the 50 watt bulb compared to this 18 watt LED. And you'll see that the LED has almost twice the lumens. And that means it's going to be brighter than our 50 watt bulb. This is a par 30. The par 20, which is only, I think, about an 8 watt bulb, the LED is not always brighter than the tungsten halogen. In this case, we have a LED that's dimmer than tungsten halogen. You just got to make sure that you read all through these so that you know what you're getting hold of. But again, you wouldn't be buying a lot just based on the box. You'd try them out first and then you can tell. Okay, next slide. And then the other thing you do is, of course, ask for a spec sheet from the manufacturer. These are often available. They're usually available online too. And you see the type of information is given here. Some are dimmable, some are not. I think pretty soon they'll all be dimmable. And then the next one. This is what's called photometrics and it's the characteristics of your bulb. You've got to be very careful as you read these. I just found out today that the photometrics up in here is for the LED bulb. But these photometrics are for comparable tungsten halogen bulbs. That's what it says right down here. Why they don't give them for the LED bulb up here? I don't know. We're looking at different beam angles here. The LED is at 25, I think. And the tungsten halogens are 30 and 40. But it does show you what the... Let's see. It shows you at different distances from the wall what the foot candles will be. And that's very, very helpful. When you're big, your disc of light will be. So you can get a lot of ideas about what the light's going to look like before you even put it into fixture and put it on wall. And then this is also required. It's starting to require these in that they'll tell you about what your color temperature is. This one's at 3,000. It's a little higher at 27, it'll be down about here. So you can tell how yellow or how white it is. So you might notice that this output is, I think, 50 on the LED and the lumens on the others are quite a bit higher. So even though it's telling you these are comparable, your LED's only going to be half as intense as these other two. You can learn a lot from the product information. Okay, I could take some questions now if there's any that have come up. There are a number that have come up. I think some of them you're going to be addressing a little bit later in the presentation. Can you go through this? I'm just... I'm trying to think if there's anything... Where is a good place to get... to begin to get samples, Rick? When you started out, you were contacting the manufacturers, right? Yes, I was. Actually, we went from a list that was provided by our local efficiency utility. So you can touch with some of your power companies and they'll often have lists of LEDs that they've worked with. And so then you can start just evaluating them online, taking a look at this type of information that you just outlined. And then all of these online evaluation seats will have a manufacturer's representative that you can call. And usually the folks that handle the bulbs for your area, the Phillips people or your local electrical supply house, will have Phillips's Sylvania or GE. And they'll be glad to bring you to get you some sample bulbs. And the other question I thought was pretty great. I think Wendy Jess had asked, did you... Did we have to change fixtures to accommodate the LEDs? So far we're just talking about retrofit lights, right? So far we are talking about retrofits, which means we're not changing any fixtures. We're just, you know, unscrewing the bulb if it's a screw base, power bulb, or pulling the MR-16s of little pins, so pulling them out. And you do have to be careful, though. We took a number of our MR-16s, especially. MR-16s can be either line voltage or they can be low voltage down around 12 volts. If they're low voltage, they have a transformer on them. And the transformers are not necessarily designed to handle LEDs. So when you just plug in an MR-16 bulb, some of them will work fine, and some of them will not. Some will give a very high frequency hop flicker, which is very annoying. And it may do it with certain brands of transformers and not other brands of transformers. So that's where you have to be the most careful in switching over to LEDs. We had several MR-16s. We tried a number of different brands of lights with different transformers here at Shelburne Museum. And the Philips was the only one that didn't blink with any of the transformers. And so that's when we chose. Plus it had other nice photometrics. We liked the good color, good color consistency the whole bit. I think the only other question we had that was going backwards, it was from Edward Flash about, did the numbers refer to color temperature? And I think that probably that got covered, you know. Sure, the numbers, when I talk about 2,700, 3,000, yes, those refer to color temperature. They're at degrees Kelvin, and the higher the number, the bluer the light, the lower the number, the more yellow the light. Oh, here's a question that is applicable to what you've already discussed. Joseph, I hope I'm saying that right. It means that I assume that 300 equals daylight. Does that mean there are UV problems? Oh, you mean 3,000 equals daylight? Probably. 3,000 actually doesn't equal daylight. Daylight is way up around 6,000 or even higher. 6,000 or 7,000. And if you actually get a daylight LED and bring it inside, it's going to look deathly white. And way too white. So, and I will cover whether there's UV. Actually, there's no UV being put out of these LED lights. There's no UV and very little IR. And so that's very good. That's one of the advantages of LED lights. You don't have to worry about filters. We replaced our MR-16s over over 500 of them with the LEDs. We had our $12 filters that if anybody's looking for filters for tungsten halogen MR-16s, we could sell you a bunch real quick because we're using many. Here's another retrofitting question from Wendy Jessup. She asked, have you found anything that would fit in a picture frame lighting fixtures? Well, actually, Rick is going to be showing a little later what we've done to sort of make picture lights with LED lights. And yes, there are. They're definitely ones you can fit into picture frames. And you can buy picture lights now, of course, that are LED. Okay, let's go on to the next slide here. Hold on one second. Let's see, warranty. There you go. Thank you. Yes, warranty. You'll hear that these bulbs last for 50,000 hours. There it is, 50,000 hours usually 50,000. But what the actual warranty is certainly not that much. Here we have, if you have a 12 hours a day, the warranty is 36 months, which is three years, which is about half of the 50,000 hours. That's not bad. You know, it's still half a warranty, but then also look under the replacement of product, limits of liability. These have a little formula down here that say if you use these for two and a half years, they're not going to give you all your money back. They're going to be prorated for how much of the 36 months you've used them. From what we've discovered is when we first put in our par 20 lamps, out of 500, there were about 10 lamps that just didn't light up or went out within the first few days. And they replaced all of those, just send us new ones for free. And we haven't had any over the last year, we haven't had any others go out. So I think what happens is you find a defect in the beginning, and then they're pretty good. We don't know whether they're going to last for all 50,000 hours. What I advise that you do is to take a measurement, put candle measurement at a standard distance, say one foot or two feet away from the light. When you first put them in, record that put candle value. Check them again after a month. There might be some burning period where they lose about 5% or so, that's normal. Then check them again after about six months and after a year. And if you do see any of them dropping below that 70%, you want to get right back and the manufacturers will replace those. But I think the dimming will go relatively slowly. It'll be hard to tell when they're down to 70%, whether it's 50,000 hours or not. I'm not confident that they'll go all 50,000 hours, but I am pretty confident that they'll go at least 25,000 or 30,000. And so if you're looking at trying to evaluate whether it's cost-effective, it's usually the highest number they give, 50,000, to make that evaluation. But you could probably go with 30 or 35 anyway. Okay, power distribution curves. These are important to request from the manufacturer. And this addresses a question of, we mentioned that LEDs do not have ultraviolet light, but they do have a peak that's down here in my arrow back. It is about 450 nanometers, and it is pretty close to ultraviolet would be right down in here. So that is a very high, it's a blue peak, and it's pretty high. That can be damaging if it gets too high. So that's what people have been worried about and one of the consciences has come out that talks about possible hole punching of different colors. If you have a very sensitive color to this wavelength will that specifically fade that color? And the answer on that has pretty much been settled, I think, at this point, especially by Steve Weintraub has done a publication that's also included as part of the references, and he talks to that, and as we go through these other SPD curves, we'll show how that probably isn't going to be much of a worry. The one place that is a worry is if you have, say, very sensitive artifacts with natural dyes, and they have never seen the light of day, they're just pristine, you might want to be very careful with what you're exposed into in any light, but this is where this peak might be more effective. If things are more damaging, if things have already been out for quite a while and have been exposed to light and have already had some fading, it's probably not much of a worry at all. But we'll talk now about how you can evaluate lights for and get ones that have a low peak here. Next slide. I don't expect to be able to read this site, but this is National Gallery of London, Joe Padfield, and a conservation scientist there, and he has started measuring and plotting these SPDs and putting them all online for many, many different bulbs, and it's a very, very handy site in evaluating LED bulbs and tungsten halogen bulbs as well. So a little confusing is where to get into it. Actually, once you get this front page, something like click here or click here, and that's where you click to get to where you can, the next page, the next slide to pull up. Okay, so here are two, what you do is you click into there and you'll get this page, and then up here you'll have a drop-down list where you can select which bulbs you want, and I think you can pair up to about seven bulbs at a time, and then you just say display and whichever ones you've selected are going to come up and show your SPDs. So here's your spectral distribution curve, and here I just picked out two Cooper lights. These are specially built lights. These are not retrofit lights, so these are ones that you have to get a whole new head because it's designed from the ground up, and you can see that there's one here with a very high peak that you probably wouldn't want to use, and if you look closely at what that red line means, I think it has a, was it around 6,000 degrees K? You probably wouldn't want to use it anywhere because it could be way too blue for you, to stay away from. So that one way to compare is to pull some of these up and then pick the one that has the lowest peak down here. So Rick, do you want to talk a little bit about the area underneath the curve and why that's important? Yes, I'll do that with the next one. Okay. Yes, okay. So here we have a bunch of different MR-16s, and the first two MR-16s are a tungsten halogen. You see what the tungsten halogen curves looks like. It has a tail down here that tails off into the ultraviolet, and it has a very large red component, or red light, and heat up on this end. Meanwhile, our tungsten halogens, or LEDs, are going to have more of a small peak down here, and then this will drop off so you'll see no ultraviolet, and the heat is very low, too, which is very nice handling these bulbs. If anybody's ever tried to take an MR-16 out while it's hot, you know, you can't do it without some sort of heat-protective clubs, whereas with an LED you can just reach right in there and pull it right out, and that's very nice if you have to work with the lights. Now, Nancy had mentioned the area under the curves. The total distribution, what the total amount of light that is affecting your artifact is down here under the curve. And so you see this quite a bit under tungsten halogens. There's actually less total light, even though it's at all different, all throughout the spectrum, under an LED to deteriorate the artifact, and there is under tungsten halogens. Now, you do notice right here there's more, but then because it cuts off so quickly, it probably about averages out, so there's more of this 450 on up, the blue side, but then when you get down, the advantage to that is that there's much less as far as ultraviolet light. Now, there's one bulb here that looks very strange, and this is called the Solox bulb, and this was a bulb that was touted a number of years ago in a Van Gogh Museum, in a Van Gogh exhibit at National Gallery, where everybody really liked the way it made the pictures look. But it's actually a tungsten halogen lamp, and it's not an LED, and you notice the Solox, which was becoming very popular to exhibit light under, if you could afford them, has really quite a bit of damaging both ultraviolet and blue light. So certainly the LEDs, if you like the looks of them, or like the looks of your pictures under the LEDs, are going to be safer than this Solox light. That's probably one of the most damaging, and of course, they'd have to put filters on it to get the ultraviolet out if you do want to use the Solox. Okay, just here's a few more. This is the... I just pulled up a few more MR-16s LEDs, and this is kind of a strange peak up into red, and what it is, is to pull up the CRI. If you look at the different CRIs, and here one of these has a 90, 91, or very high, 95 CRI, and that's what does it, is this high peak. So this is just a way, again, of comparing different bulbs. We'd want to stay away from this one, and if you look over here, this is, again, it's at 6,300 degree K, so it would probably look too white anyway. And the best ones to select would be either the green or the red. Okay, next. Now, here's the... I'm sorry, there we go. Here's what's called the Zicado lamp. It's known as one of the best LEDs. It has a very, very high CRI, the high 90s, and you can see why. It very closely approximates the tungsten halogen SPD, and just with a little tiny peak down here, these are not available that I know of yet, as a retrofit light, as a replacement, that you just pop in an MR-16, and that would be it. These are built from the ground up. These particular ones are made by LSI, and they run about $350 a fixture. What is nice is you can get different lenses, so you can make them into a flood, or a spot, or almost anything in between. They're very adjustable, and they have these really very good LEDs in them. We're looking at building a new building, and we expect these lights for them. What we did is go to our energy efficiency utility, and they offered to pay about $150 a light, so we're not going to... We'll still have to pay more than we would for normal lighting heads, but because of all the energy we'll be saving, they're going to help us out. I keep referring to this energy efficient utility, I think for MOTS, the only state that has a utility similar to electric utility, that just concentrates on saving electricity, but most of your electric utilities will have some branch of energy efficiency and encouragement, some sort of a rebate for institutions to put these type of bulbs in, and they have to do very particular calculations and see what the payback is. We were fortunate at the end of 2010, they told us if we could get our orders in by 2010, they would essentially pay the full price, the $30 to $40, $30 to $60 price of each bulb, and we receive $50,000 worth of LED lights for free, which is one of the things that's led us to put them in. Okay, the next one. Okay, I'm not going to move to case lighting. May I want to take a few questions if you've seen any that have come up just about selecting LEDs and maybe these SPDs? Misha Griffith, and I've seen another question about filters. Do you use diffusion filters on any of the...? Yes, we do, and in fact, the LEDs, the only ones we could get, I think they're coming in wider beams now, but we were only getting a 28-degree beam in the MR-16 Phillips, which is the one we like best. It didn't cause any flickering in any other lights, but it was only 28 degrees wide, and that was not wide enough. One of the problems with a 28-degree is if you're trying to replace two tungsten halogens at 40 degrees, you're going to require at least three LEDs for every two halogens, because the beam's just not wide enough. So that's where we put a spread lens in front. We also found with that LED, because it was more of a spot, we did need to spread the beam out because it was too bright for us. So with our spread lenses, they were very important on those particular bulbs, and it works nicely. It goes down the total intensity, and it spreads it out. With the PAR bulbs that we use, the Sylvania, the PAR 20s, we use no spread beams. They were fine as is. So the spread lens just really helps you to adjust the beam, just like you would with any tungsten halogens. And what are we currently paying for a retrofit bulb these days? About $30 for the MR-16s. The PAR 30s are up around $45, and the PAR 38s, which are quite a bit larger, are up around $60. So that's what you can expect. They're coming down, but they're still quite high up there. And what that means is usually your payback is somewhere around nine or 10 years. Look into gateway studies. There's two or three gateway studies posted here. One's a Getty Gateway study. That's the most recent. And they do all the analysis on costs and some have a three-year payback. Some will have a seven-year payback. It all depends on your situation. It's not a hard analysis to do. Okay, I did talk a bit about the PAR 20s. One of the things, I said that these lights are not as hot and they don't feel as hot, but they do put off quite a bit of heat. And that's why when you take a look at them, they have fins around them. They have to get the heat away from that solid state chip that produces the light. If it's above about 130 degrees Celsius, which is very cool compared to most light bulbs, we're used to the filament light bulbs. There's actually something burning there. There's nothing burning in an LED. So you've got to keep that below 130 degrees. The hotter it gets, the quicker it's going to burn out. The quicker it's going to lose its intensity. So that's why you see all these fins around them. And you've got to move that heat away from them. To do that, you want to try to put them in if you're putting a retrofit into a can. It would be good if the can had vents on the back. It does tell you specifically on the boxes not to put these in a closed fixture. And so I checked with manufacturers to make sure that didn't mean just not put them in a closed can without vents. They said, no, no, a can's okay, but you can't put them up in like a kitchen fixture and then completely close them in so they'll burn out much quicker. We've been using the Part 20 inside of Part 30 fixture and that gives a lot of room around the bulb and so it can cool down. So the cooler you can keep this bulb, the more chance you have of getting that 50,000 or 30,000 hours, whatever it's rated at. Okay, I think I'll move into case lighting for a bit. This is actually how we started out in LEDs. We had a project, a NEH grant, to help us to relight our doll cases. We had fluorescent bulbs in here and we had proposed to use fiber optics. And it turns out fiber optics for this entire exhibit was going to cost about $130,000. And although there would be completely cool light inside the cases, which is advantage of fiber optics, the projectors themselves are very hot. And we had to put projectors inside little cabinets in a 100-year-old building with very dry walls. And essentially it would have been a fire hazard because we would have had 20 of these different projectors. So fiber optics was kind of out for this project. When we designed a project, LEDs were not even an option, but fortunately by the time we did the project, they were just starting to come in and we were starting to get in touch with some manufacturers. And this is what the doll cases look like after they were installed. We specifically used ProLume and they've worked with us very closely there, especially manufacturer out of Connecticut. And ProLume is not the type of LED, it's a fixture and they will buy different types of LEDs and put them into fixtures. The next slide. Here's the first thing that they had designed and it's called an LIA for a LED illumination assembly is what they termed it. And that's the first generation we put in. And these are what are called through-hole LEDs. They're little bulbs that stick out and they're frosted with a white phosphor on the inside which gives you the white light, otherwise it's very blue. And it tones it down, brings the color temperature down from the blue light down around 6,000 down to around 3,000. They're actually small fluorescent bulbs because the phosphor is, you know, light up and turn yellow and change the color. And then about two generations later, one year later, we had the flat LEDs or the surface-mounted LEDs. This is called the RIA, the regal. Regal is just the name of the chip that's used. Next slide. So here are some of the characteristics of these. First of all, the LIA is at the top and then a few years later, the RIA. And you can see how the RIAs are much brighter. One of the things we liked about the LIA was that it was very dim. These lights were quite dim when they first came out. And you saw in the doll cases there's a lot of textiles, so we want them light. We don't want real bright light. We did not even need to put dimmers on these lights up here. Whereas these down here, when we did replace them, we had to then put a dimmer on it because it was too bright for us. But you see the type of nice light we are getting here. Okay, the next slide. Now, one of the problems, the early LIDs, that they've mostly solved, but you still have to be a bit aware of it, is they do come in all different colors. And these colors are, you can pick out what color you want from the chromaticity chart. And you can see they can go anywhere from a very cool green all up to a warm white and almost anything in between. But you can also see how these, although these are all supposed to be the same color, they all look the same color. They weren't very consistent when it first started out. That was a real problem. What we liked, this was about a 3400 degree Kelvin, and this was about a 27, and we wanted about 3000. So we asked the manufacturer if they could alternate the lights, which is what they did here. And that's how we got our 3000 degree that we were putting into the cases. Now, they've solved much of these problems and, you know, you don't have to be worried about them too much, but with your retrofit bulbs, when you decide on a bulb, get four or five of them, put them next to each other onto a white wall and see how consistent all five of those bulbs are. I did find that different manufacturers, I think our Sylvania manufacturer was the most consistent for us, whereas some of the other manufacturers, we could see a difference, even among the different individual bulbs, so that still is a bit of a problem. Okay, the next. You also have, this is our Torch Shop, which was one of the early LED installations we had. And here I mentioned we had those 3400 degree lights that were too blue, and most of our other installations, but in this installation, they were perfect. And you can see why. It's because the cases are all painted yellow. So that yellow is going to bring down the color temperature, the perceived color temperature of these more blue lights. It's very important within case lighting to... The color of your in-case lighting is really going to influence how the whole thing looks, especially under LEDs, I think more so even than under Thompson lights. Can I interject? The mock-ups are just extremely important with all of this. Can I interject something? Unfortunately, we don't have a picture of it here, but in another exhibition gallery, the curator had chosen a sort of a lavender for the walls and for the insides of the cases, and when we put the LEDs in, essentially they shifted the wall color within the cases to something like slightly bluer. So it kind of looks like there's this very subtle change between the color, between the walls and the insides of the cases, but it's just not true. It's just how the LEDs interact with that particular color. It wasn't a problem anywhere else in the building when the walls in those rooms are blue and pink and with the yellow, it's just that one. So that is something to be aware of as you're choosing colors, but you kind of almost need to paint a swatch and check them before you paint your walls, just to be on the safe side. Good. Next slide. Now, somebody had asked about picture lights, and here we've designed our own picture lights. We have a wood wall here, a very nice maple wood wall, and our exhibit designer just made a nice little trough and put it on a piece of copper, brought the wire through a copper pipe, installed one of those LED lights you just see in the LIAs, and they can be very nicely adjusted to light our very sensitive silk paintings or silk tapestries here, a morning drawing, and a sampler. And then we also use them, they're mounted up on the top here inside a little cavity outside the case with a piece of glass in between to light these small miniature cases. So what's nice about the LEDs is you get them in just one or two lights, very small, nicely adjustable, especially if they're on a dimmer. With these cases, the whole wall was on a dimmer, so I could dim them all, not individually. I didn't need to do that. And the next slide. This is just a nice example of before with the tungsten and very, very warm, warm in both color temperature and quite hot. These are actually dangerous. Many of these old miniature displays that we have have been around for, oh, here at the museum for almost over 50 years now. And when we took these apart, there was actually some charring of the wood up in these locations because of the many, many years of exposure to the high heat. You see the LEDs, of course, they're much, much cooler. They don't really raise the temperature of the cases at all. We actually did measurements with data loggers. I think they raise the temperature of the case two degrees per hour a day. And it's much more even. So we're very pleased, and you can also see that color is much better, too. We're very happy with these. We've had a number of questions about how far to keep the LED lights, or if one of the great advantages of them is the lack of damage that you can see happening in the before picture there. Is there any recommended amount of space? You just said two degrees. So does that mean that... Well, no, the two degrees is how much we were measuring the temperature in the case, how much the temperature went up. And that's what that was. It was two degrees increase in temperature. How far to keep away from artifacts? My rule has been the same with tungsten halogen. If you can put your hand up against the artifacts and feel any heat coming from the light, it's too close. Now, you're going to be able to get the LED probably within a foot or even closer, as you see here. Even in this one, this is very close to some of these artifacts a few inches. That's possible with RADs, where it's really not safely possible with even very low voltage halogen lamps. When we measured the case that Rick is mentioning, that we measured the initial LEDs in is essentially the size of a dollhouse room. Because, in fact, we were looking for a solution for our dollhouses as well as the miniatures. And so that was... We kind of did a small worst case scenario and had a bar of lights across the top of that case and that measured within it. So that's what... What? Less than a one-foot square? Yes, it's a one-square foot, a little off that we're able to light up very safely. And as long as you turn them down into dimmer, they'll be fine. We only wanted five-foot candles in these cases anyway, so we're going for very low light level. We found that with these type of lights, now the LEDs are getting brighter and brighter, but when we were first putting these in, we could throw our light about two to three feet down through the case if you needed to light up a six-foot case, you'd have to put one of the... Either the LEDs along the side of the case or else be able to mount them onto the lower shelves because it wouldn't throw all the way down to six feet. I don't think that's the case now. I think now that they certainly have lights that can throw much further. And therefore, while they also had trouble putting lights that would throw from 12, 14 feet up in a gallery, getting a spot, a tight enough spot to really get the light down to the painting, still be a tight spot, that has been solved. Let's just go to the last slide here, as we're nearly finished. This is one of the best guides that's out. In fact, there's one of the few guides that's out, specifically on Museum, and it's out from the Getty. Jim Jerseyeck and Stefan McCauske put this together. And it's very good information. It's included as our references. Also, those gateway studies that I've referenced are really good. And if anybody wants to get on LinkedIn, we have the Museum Art Gallery Lighting and Design and the Museum Design Group. Those two, Museum Art Gallery Lighting and Museum Design on LinkedIn, have good conversations every once in a while on LEDs. And in fact, when we were going out to design to get lights for a new building, to spec lights for a new building or new galleries, I just said, you know, can anybody advise me on what type of LEDs I should look for for a building that's going to have, a gallery that's going to have 12-foot ceilings? So I'm looking at the cicada lights perhaps. And boy, I got all, there's designers on there, there's consultants, there's the LSI reps and some of the other company reps are on that list. And they provide some very good advice. Any other last minute questions? We've got about 10 more minutes for people to put questions in, and we have a couple to follow up on. I just wanted to mention here, when we spoke before this, you mentioned something about talking about the light in the lab, matching the light that's on the exhibit. All right, so my most recent projects include some horse-drawn vehicles that are going on view in our round barn that have, it's again an LED lit, and I don't, my next big project is to get some LED lights retrofit for the, some lights here in the lab because I found that when I did the color matching of textiles to fill some losses in the upholstery, here in the lab, which has both natural daylight, northern natural daylight and daylight fluorescence, when I took it up, when I checked it out up in the gallery space, there was a color shift happening under the LED lights. So I think it is important for museums when you do contract, if you're contracting out to conservators to be, to let them know what kind of lighting you're using so that they can match those lights for their in-painting or compensation of loss. I should have thought of it sooner, but it hadn't been an issue until now. And that's always been somewhat of a concern with, you know, what type of light you're using in the galleries. I know museums, but it does seem to be a little more critical with LEDs, mainly because they're not pulling as much from the full spectrum, they're not providing as much as the full spectrum as they do with these peaks. So that's a very good advice. Charles Walbridge says there's now an updated version of the Getty Guide available directly from Jim Druzyk, and we have his email address posted at that link where we have other featured resources. I just wanted to mention that. Yeah, I think they've gone through eight or nine different additions and they keep adding to it. This field just continues to change so rapidly that what we say today, six months down there's more lights out. About eight years ago when the LEDs, when we first started working with them, I was telling people, you know, five years down the road, you're going to see all your CFLs and all your tungsten could be replaced in your homes by LEDs and in museums. It's not quite five years, but, you know, eight to ten years later it's certainly happening. And the other wonderful resource that Elsa, you were so kind to put up there, Jim had sent us their recent gateway report that had to do with their tests at the Getty in their galleries using LED lights. And there was also some great information about fading rates of dyes and how there's one particular dye crystal violet which seems to be particularly sensitive after its initial fade. So that's an anomaly. So I think with these, particularly with these gateway projects, we're going to be just dramatically increasing our sophistication as we think about using these LED lights. Now, I just saw a comment come up from one of our participants about holes in the rear of electrical enclosures to violate the National Electric Code. Yeah, that's true. What I was really talking about was to get a track light, a can that has holes in the back of the can. I don't mean to put holes in, you know, a built-in light that's built into a ceiling or something like that. So, and there are, you can certainly find them that have vent holes in the back of the can, not in a built-in fixture. We had a question from Katherine Wright saying, we are talking to an LSI rep to design our lighting for our new renovated museum. Good move. Sure. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of good reps out there. Okay. LSI is fine. LSI can be relatively expensive, but they make a very good product. And, you know, but there's all, you can get an independent lighting designer in. Most of the architects have lighting designers. We ended up working, we went through our architect lighting designer who got us a bunch of different, we were comparing LSI, we were comparing Cree, a number of different types of fixtures and Cooper. And so, you know, you can go through all these. It's difficult, anybody that knows about lighting knows it's difficult to source lighting because you can go out to the manufacturer, but they go through representatives who, and if you work with an architect, they go through consultants. It gets very confusing. Each one adds their own little profit margin, too. One of the nice things about working with ProLim is we are working with directly with the source they provide, they will provide light. They listened to us very closely. We didn't have to go through all these different layers. And there were a lot of different markups going through, so they were a good price. Those in-case lights I was showing were running about $30 a foot. And in fact, I mentioned that the fiber optic lights were going to cost $130,000. We ended up doing that whole exhibit for $30,000 with the LEDs, which was about a quarter of the price. So Rick, Amy JK Russell is asking if you have any advice for institutions planning new facility space for making it as compatible with retrofit and non-retrofit LED lighting. And we're kind of in the midst of that with our new building. We are in the midst of it. What we expect is to use non-retrofit lighting, special built manufactured lighting. I think you'd best stop doing that if you can afford it because everything's matched to the LEDs. The transformers, everything, they're built from the ground up. You don't have to worry about flicker and not matching up that sort of thing. One thing that will happen if you use retrofit, some of the old transformers, especially for the MR-16s, need a certain amount of voltage to be demanded before they'll even light up, before they'll even turn on. And so when you put some of these low-voltage LEDs on, there's not enough power to actually make the transformer turn on. So until you get five or six or seven heads in place, they won't even turn on. So if you buy in special built, you'll get away from problems like that. Now, in the auditorium in all of the new building we're building, some of those are going to be retrofit LEDs. And one thing I recommend on retrofit is to kind of stay with your major producers, with Phillips, with GE, Sylvania, that sort of thing. There are a lot of new groups out there, and some of them make very good lights, but you don't know how long they're going to be around. I don't think they have quite as much of the research behind them, that sort of thing. So that's kind of where we've come back. I'm going to go ahead and post a link to our evaluation, but I was hoping maybe we could get one or two more questions in. We have a couple of good ones that are there, right? Okay. Rose, what are your thoughts about the visual changes that LED lights will make in historic light fixtures? Well, they're a lot better than some of the alternatives. The LED manufacturers are concentrating now on some of them are on candor-labor fixtures. Again, they'll charge a premium form, but they can look very good. Some of them they can flicker like flames. I think they're actually kind of a little more sparkling and closer to what you'd think of as an actual flame with the reproduction candles and all. So I think they're probably going to exceed what we're used to with the halogen. It might take a while to do it. Samantha Springer said, are you looking for in-case lighting for stained glass? Any suggestions? Yes. Actually, those type of pro-loom or those strip lights, it doesn't have to be pro-loom. You can go out to Home Depot and buy these strip lights now. I don't really recommend that. They're really not quite up to the quality. But hey, get them and put them in and make sure you do mock-ups. But any of those can work well with stained glass. What's really nice is sometimes behind a stained glass, you do want a higher, more like a daylight temperature. And so maybe going with a 4 or 4500 degree Kelvin with stained glass with the box behind it would work very nicely. And I know that the pro-loom folks have lit stained glass in the past and it works very nicely. You can put them all the way around the edges of the window. And then as long as you have a white behind it to reflect off, it works beautifully. Nice and even. Can LEDs use the same dimmers on existing track lighting, Beth Austin asked? I don't think they can. Well, some of the retrofit may be able to because they're made to go into homes. It's something you would need to check out. They work completely different. They work off drivers and then dimmers. So I don't think it's just a standard. You can just plug in. But we haven't tried it a lot off the shelf. We buy the dimmers that the manufacturers say we should use. And I think I saw a recent article that there is an ongoing gateway project that's coming out with a report fairly soon, I assume, that has exactly that. What kind of dimmers can you use with LEDs? So keep your eyes peeled for that one, Beth. Okay. And Scott Rosenfeld says LEDs need to be matched to a dimmer. Some LEDs will work and some won't. Yeah. Karen McClurken in Charlottesville is wondering if you've used LED lighting in your storage spaces. We haven't, but there's no reason we wouldn't. You know, they're instant on, instant off. We have used them in some of our buildings that get very cold where fluorescent lights were not very nice because it took them so long to warm up in the winter if they warmed up at all. So yeah, I think they're fine for storage and they have no UV, so why not? It's kind of expensive, but again, do the calculations and see where you get. I wouldn't hesitate to do it. Yeah, I think it's just that we don't have the right kind of fixtures for them at this point. Yeah, most of your storage will often have fluorescent fixtures in which they're already pretty efficient. And when you start comparing the efficiency then, you know, 10, 15-year paybacks for a complete retrofit, you may not go with LEDs. Okay. Anne Schachtel in Nova Scotia, what about using LEDs in the Himalayan region where the electricity varies in strength of current from minute to minute? Well, I try them. I think they're probably fine because as they move through these drivers or the transformers they use, I think it might take some of that out, but I'm not real sure. Maybe one of the lighting designers knows more about the technical part of the wheel to weigh in on that. But I think, you know, get a hold of them and put them in and see what happens. Don't buy them all, don't go out and replace them all, but certainly try to do some tests. All right. We'll make this our last question. We post a recording of this and we post the resources online. I put something in the group discussion board, so that should prompt an email to go to most of your inboxes and you can always just check back at questions.org for the recording. There's also a good place there for us to continue the conversation. If questions occur to you after this, I'll make sure to get answered. But here's our last question then from Samantha Springer again. Are there any benefits to using a flexible strip of LEDs? Oh, just that you can fit it into, you know, if it's a flexible strip, it can certainly go around curves and that sort of thing. So it has more to do with your custom design, you know, what fits into your exhibits. There's no reason not to. As long as there's a bit of a space between them, it shouldn't hurt at all that the wires have been around or anything like that. Oh, yeah, I think that would be one of the advantages. Okay, right. All right. Well, I think it's time for us to wrap this up. Thanks for the extra time, Rick and Nancy. I hope that people will take just a minute to find that eight-question evaluation. It's most of it's multiple choice and you don't have to answer the ones that aren't. And we pay very close attention to what you say on these evaluations when we're planning future ones. So, Rick and Nancy, thank you. I want to plug our next couple of webinars. Actually, the one I have on the calendar right now is about May Day. It's going to be Lori Foley from Heritage Preservation here. She's our Vice President for Emergency Programs. That's going to be in a few weeks on April 18th, also at 1 p.m. Eastern. And we have a schedule of about four or five more of these live chat events that I'll be posting really soon. So keep an eye on your email and on the website. I think that's it. Nancy or Rick, did you have anything else that you wanted to add? No, I don't think so. We actually did put in the LEDs about a year earlier. I mentioned we switched over to all LEDs. We did a year earlier than I had really planned to do it because we could get the LEDs for free. I'm not sorry we did it. I'm pretty sure they're there as far as moving forward with LEDs and collection lighting. Okay, great. All right. Well, I'll just say thank you again. I really appreciate this. Thank you. It's been a great webinar. And I know it's going to be useful for people in the recording format, too, later. All right, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us today and for all your great questions. And I hope that everybody has a wonderful afternoon. Thank you. Thank you.