 to safeguards in the name of COVID-19. This has been organised by the Forest Peoples Programme, the Tenure Facility, Middlesex University, the Lowenstein International Human Rights Clinic and the Land Portal. It's my very great pleasure to be the moderator for this event. I'm Jonathan Watts, the Global Environment Editor of The Guardian, the founder of the Rainforest Journalism Fund and a co-contributor to a new book standing up for A Sustainable World. We have an amazing response to this webinar. More than a thousand people have expressed an interest in this event and I think that shows just how important this issue is. More than 2.5 million people from Indigenous peoples and local communities live on and manage more than 50 percent of the world's land area through customary or traditional systems. This includes some of the most important and biodiverse forests in the world and numerous studies have shown that, I beg your pardon, and numerous studies have shown that the protection of Indigenous and community rights is the most cost-effective and effective way of protecting those areas. Despite laws to supposedly protect those rights, they have formal legal ownership of only 10% of that land that they look after and another maybe 8% has some degree of government recognised management rights. It's a somewhat precarious situation and when Indigenous and local community rights are not recognised by governments, it can lead to poverty, conflict sometimes, environmental degradation and there is growing awareness amongst academics, NGOs, global policymakers that the 10-year security of Indigenous peoples and traditional communities is a prerequisite for achieving national and international goals for forest governance, also for food security, climate mitigation, economic development and human rights. So crucially important but this is contested, obviously there are forces we know that resist this and they're trying to roll this back and we are seeing that now and it's since last year and the start of the COVID-19 pandemic there's been a shift in absolutely everything and that includes in health policy, the economy and while people, citizens are focused on health and financial concerns, some governments are using the pandemic as an opportunity to prevent change or even to roll back policies that could protect and guarantee rights for Indigenous people. In some cases indeed it's either been the pandemic has been weaponised or been used through a form of sort of malign neglect and this is creating a devastating impact and before we get much further I just want to look at the very briefly a victim of the health crisis and yesterday it was announced by the Brazilian Indigenous organisation COYAB that the last male member of the Juma people, his name was Aruka Juma died of COVID. This is an extraordinary tragedy, the Juma used to number 15,000 people at the start of the 20th century and now the last man in that community has gone, it's the extinction of an entire people and before we go any further I'd like us just to have a few moments of silence to remember him and all the other Indigenous victims of COVID. Okay thank you. Now let's look forward, let's look at how we can analyse the situation, how we can change the situation. Today we are going to get a summary of the Forest People's Programme Global Study and this will be followed by a discussion amongst our esteemed panellists who come from Brazil, Colombia, Indonesia and Peru. You the audience will be able to participate, we'll be taking questions from you and we will ask you for a short there'll be a short sort of online poll very shortly and before we do that let me introduce my co-participants, the other panellists. I'll start with Cajal Doyle who is the author of one of the authors of this paper, he's a senior lecturer at the School of Law in Middlesex University and a member of the Forest People's Programme Board. Then we come to the other members of our esteemed panel, a very fabulous depth of knowledge from across much of the world that we have delighted to have Ruka Sambolinghi who is the first female secretary general of Aman which is the Indigenous People's Alliance of the Archipelago, the world's largest Indigenous People's Organization. Ruka, hello Ruka, is a Torajan from the highlands of Sulawesi. I'm told she is a fiery orator so we had better watch out. I also know she's got a gorgeous dog so if her video link goes we might get a glimpse of that. Next up we have Raes Perez who is the president of the One Peas Nation in Peru. His organization has defended against extractive threats and focused on their own way of development and sustainable conservation. Then we have from Colombia, Camilo Nino, hello you and sorry before hello Raes. Camilo is the speaker of the National Commission for Indigenous Territories Observatory of Colombia. He is a leader of the Arjuaco people, an ecologist and a master of rural development from the Pontifical University of Javeriana. Then finally from Brazil we have Diviani Rojas Garzon who is a lawyer and coordinator of Instituto Socio Ambiental. She is a political scientist, a specialist on environmental law and she has worked in the Amazon and on Indigenous rights since 1988. Before we get into this a little bit of housekeeping this webinar will be recorded. There will be a video available on the land portal website later. We have as I mentioned before more than a thousand participants signed up. There will be live tweeting if you want to hashtag its COVID rollback or Indigenous peoples. You will be able to send in questions throughout. You should at the bottom of your screen see a little button for asking questions. Please use that for questions rather than the chat room. They'll be welcome chat rooms throughout and it's great to see many of you from all over contributing already. Hello everyone out there. Now let's have a quick icebreaker so that we can know who is out there. We'll have an online poll that should appear on your screen and help us to get to know each other. The first question you should now see is please can you click and tell us in which region are you based? You should see that up on your screen now and you see the four choices five choices. Please let us know which of those it applies to you. Where are you from? Where are you now? And then you can see then I'd like you to answer the question which sector do you represent? Are you from the government, civil society, NGOs or your private sector, international organisation? Are you an academic or an other? I guess I would be an other. I think it would be in another all my life. Okay so I hope you've all clicked on that and we should quite soon see the results. Okay let's see who we are. Who's out there? Now it seems like the majority of people are from two regions. North, South and Central America, 41%. Europe and Central Asia, 44%. So about equal between the old world and the new as they used to be known. Then we have 11% from Asia Pacific, 4% from Africa and from sorry sub-Saharan Africa and just one person from East and North Africa. Hello that one person. Thank you very much for representing your area and thank you all. Now I know I should say in case you're curious I'm from my region is Pimlico in London where the sun is coming down and it's a little cool. I hope it's warmer and brighter wherever you are. Now which sectors, let's see who you are in terms of sectors. Yes a good spread, 39% civil society, 21% international organisations and then also good representation of the university, sorry universities, government and private sector. I think we get the idea here that we have a very diverse audience with representation across a lot of regions and a lot of sectors so welcome, welcome to you all. Now one more question I'd like to throw at you and this is how do you feel about the impact of COVID on nature? A very subjective question in many ways. There's no right or wrong answer here but do you think that COVID-19 has helped the environment or made the environment worse? And again there isn't a right and wrong answer this will totally depend on your region, what kind of habitat you live in, urban or rural and on how you interpret the environment, how you see nature. So from your perspective has the environment improved or gotten worse? Let us know what you think, I mean obviously you might say the air quality's improved or I see more deer in the streets or you know all these stories we've heard of how things have changed as humanity is retreated and there are less cars on the road. So let's hope everyone's answered that and let's just see that answer. Wow, a total split down the middle, 50% think things the environment has improved as a result of COVID and exactly, almost to say one person more in fact says that things have gotten worse. Now I think this is crucial because this is about perceptions and it's about distance because many people in consumer cities, urban cities feel that there have been gains in the environment because there's less cars on the road, there's less pollution and also maybe many people who look at the world on a global level can say there have been some gains because we all know carbon dioxide levels have gone down but the situation is very different for people on the front line for those in remote areas often where which is actually perhaps the most important area of biodiversity in the world and these are areas of course where you tend to find traditional communities and Indigenous people and they're the pictures much more mixed. Sometimes things might be a little better, often it's much worse and in terms of political protection, in terms of support from the services all of those things can also happen and that is what we are here to discuss and so with this I'd like to hand over to Kahal to tell us the results of the study. What have you found about the effects on Indigenous communities Indigenous rights? Thank you Jonathan I'm just going to share my screen and put up a few slides as I talk about the report so good morning afternoon or evening to you all wherever you are in the world and thank you for joining us. As Jonathan said I'm going to speak about the global report and its findings and recommendations and the other panelist are very well placed to speak about the situation in their countries. So early in the pandemic in 2020 Indigenous people started to alert international allies human rights organizations like Forest People's Programme of government plans and initiatives to roll back social and environmental safeguards with very serious consequences for their rights and territories. Given these very concerning reports from the ground Forest People's Programme our partners and allies felt it was important to undertake systematic analysis to understand the extent to which this is happening in Indigenous people's territories in the five most tropically forested countries in the world. FEP therefore came together with the Lone Steen International Human Rights Law Clinic at Yale Law School with Middlesex University School of Law and with researchers in Brazil, Colombia, Peru, Indonesia and the DRC to attempt to answer this question that you see. Since the outbreak of the coronavirus pandemic to what extent have governments in the world's five most tropically forested countries rolled back on environmental and social safeguards and what are the consequences of this for Indigenous peoples and their territories? So the approach we took was to conduct country studies in five countries in collaboration with local researchers and Indigenous peoples organizations and the research relied on academic journals, white papers, media reports and importantly information provided by Indigenous peoples and their organizations to build a picture of rollback in each country. We focused on four areas where rollback was being reported firstly macroeconomic policies and land use plans, second impact assessment consultation and consent seeking processes, thirdly impunity for land grabbing illegal mining and logging activities and then fourthly and very importantly increased levels of violence and criminalization of Indigenous and community leaders. So our findings are very stark. We found clear evidence of rollback in all of these areas. Social and environmental laws, regulations and safeguards have been weakened purportedly in the name of economic continuity and recovery with no consideration given to the very profound implications of this for Indigenous peoples and their territories and the consequences of this are serious in all five countries. So this rollguard of safeguards is already affecting Indigenous peoples and the integrity of their territories and it will continue to do so and to cause even greater harm if not reversed. These rights violations are structural in nature and they're by no means new. So what we're seeing is business as usual but its destructive impact is significantly intensified at a time when Indigenous peoples and other forest dependent communities are at their most vulnerable and unable to defend their rights. Some have put it in this way harmful business as usual but this time on steroids. So report us four main findings. The first is that governments have prioritized the expansion of energy mining logging and agribusiness activities in or near Indigenous territories in the name of economic recovery while at the same time weakening safeguards and violating Indigenous peoples rights. The second is that governments have aided and abetted or turned a blind eye to land grabbing for illegal deforestation mining and agricultural activities in Indigenous territories. As a result of this deforestation continued to surge in 2020 and shows no sign of abating. Third changes to policies and regulations governing land use to enable commodity production and extractive industries have been rushed through during the pandemic. And these further weaken social and environmental safeguards including consultation and free prior informed consent and ultimately they facilitate the systematic violation of Indigenous peoples rights. And fourthly Indigenous peoples who attempt to assert their rights are facing alarming and increasing levels of violence, arrest and criminal prosecution. So these findings give rise to serious concerns. We expect that these rights violations will accelerate as governments become increasingly focused on pursuing so-called economic recovery at all costs. But such an approach to recovery is it's not only ethically and legally wrong, it's also counterproductive and totally unsustainable from an economic and environmental perspective. By undermining Indigenous peoples land rights governments are endangering the most effective solution for protecting the world's biodiversity. As guardians of 80% of the world's biodiversity Indigenous peoples are responsible for a huge portion of the 33 trillion dollars which the World Economic Forum estimates intact biodiversity contributes to the global economy. So protection of Indigenous peoples rights and tropical forests are inextricably linked. Much of the world's remaining intact tropical forests and habitats are part of Indigenous peoples territories and their traditional stewardship and sustainable use of these ecosystems are essential in tackling global climate change. Research has repeatedly concluded that the most effective way to protect forest and biodiversity is to respect Indigenous peoples rights. However rather than partner with Indigenous peoples to ensure sustainable long-term recovery, short-sighted governments are instead rolling back rights safeguards and in so doing are imperiling the customary owners and traditional managers of the world's biodiversity and all of our futures. And we believe that without concerted action to address and halt this trend further erosion of Indigenous peoples rights and destruction of the biodiversity and forests in their territories is inevitable. So this year as we all know the world's governments will come together at the UN climate change and biodiversity conferences. And among the most important commitments that they can make at these events is to halt and reverse rights denying and environmentally destructive rollbacks and to ensure effective protection of Indigenous peoples rights in their territories. And given the central role which Indigenous peoples tenure security and traditional knowledge play in combating both biodiversity loss and climate change it's essential that negotiators at these conferences put Indigenous peoples land, autonomy and territorial rights at the very heart of climate change and biodiversity targets, investments and strategies. So what needs to be done? Well the report has a series of recommendations but I'm going to just give you a sample of four of those. Firstly governments of tropically forested countries must reverse these safeguard rollbacks. They must end the criminalisation of Indigenous leaders and prosecute those responsible for violating their rights. They need to partner with Indigenous peoples to realise sustainable recovery that respects their rights and protects their forests. Governments in consumer countries including the US, the EU and the UK must consult with Indigenous people to develop human rights and environmental due diligence legislation for their global commodity supply chains and associated finance. They must also use political dialogue and cooperation agreements to influence governments of highly tropically forested countries to reverse and prevent the weakening of environmental and social safeguards and to ensure effective participation of Indigenous peoples in pandemic recovery activities. International financial institutions such as the World Bank should urgently assess both the risks and the opportunities in COVID-19 recovery and interventions and develop strategies that prevent rights violations and also directly support Indigenous peoples to strengthen their autonomy and territorial control. Multinational corporations, financial institutions, conservation organisations need to adopt policies and implement due diligence practices in accordance with the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples with zero tolerance for threats, attacks and human rights violations against Indigenous rights defenders. So in conclusion Indigenous peoples' collective rights are recognised at the international level. These self-determination rights now urgently need to be realised in Indigenous peoples' forests and territories. States have legal obligations to uphold and protect these rights and doing so is necessary for Indigenous peoples' survival and for the future of our planet. Indigenous peoples themselves are responding in the face of extraordinary difficulties and they're doing so by demarcating and monitoring their territories, they're strengthening their self-governance institutions and economic resilience and they're developing free prior informed consent laws and protocols and all of this is to realise greater territorial control and self-determined development. However, even during a global pandemic when Indigenous peoples attempt to assert their rights they experience violence, intimidation and criminalisation. Their governments are failing them, it's our shared responsibility now more than ever to stand with Indigenous peoples and support them in their struggles. As Joanne Carling director of Indigenous Rights International affirms, a pandemic can never be an excuse to trample upon human rights and destroy our planet. Rolling back environmental and social protections in the name of promoting economic recovery is adding insult to injury for Indigenous peoples. So thank you very much for listening and I hope you'll all read the report. Thank you, Kahal. Fascinating, horrifying, sobering and yet very constructive in not just the problem but what we can do about it. I remember at the start of the pandemic writing some stories about Brazil and the fears of many Indigenous rights groups and environmental groups that the pandemic would be used to kind of push forward more extractive industries in the Amazon and elsewhere. As you say, it's kind of extractivism on steroids which is horrifying and governments are failing really on a massive scale to protect Indigenous rights. Now that was the big picture look at what's happening. Now let's hear from those who are on the ground who are directly or contacting people who are directly affected. I want to start with Brazil partly because it's the place I know best but also because we've all seen what's been happening there in terms of the forest fires, the deforestation, the violence. We've heard that the Environment Minister there, Salis, actually said let's use this quiet period during the pandemic by which means the media quiet period so that we can push through other types of deregulation by which he means weakening the rights of Indigenous people. Viviane, can you tell us, has there been an increase in land grabbing since the start of COVID-19? What's happening on the ground? La persona que contribuyó directamente con el informe sobre la crisis relacionada con la pandemia y los pueblos indígenas en Brasil es la antropóloga Taís Mantovanelli que trabajó dentro del informe y que es parte del Instituto Sociambiental. Rapidamente para ir al punto, hoy Brasil está enfrentando una crisis grave de aumento de la deforestation principalmente dentro de los territorios indígenas que no es una novedad que llega con la pandemia pero que junto con la pandemia y la elección del presidente Bolsonaro en una administración abiertamente contra los derechos indígenas ha provocado efectos desastrosos con relación a la garantía de los derechos territoriales, el derecho a la vida y el derecho a la autodeterminación de los pueblos indígenas. Son un conjunto de elementos que caracterizan esa amenaza pero nosotros nos gustaría sistematizar eso apenas en dos puntos. Uno tiene que ver con la expectativa de cambio de la legislación, de hecho una decisión deliberada del gobierno federal de promover cambios normativos, no solamente cambios administrativos a partir de los cuales él tiene competencia y en los cuales ha avanzado en un proceso de desregularización y desmantelación de políticas públicas así como enfraquecimiento de los órganos públicos relacionados tanto con los derechos indígenas como con la protección de los bosques y con la protección de los bosques amazónicos. Entonces hay un proceso por un lado administrativo que le cabe y es competencia del gobierno Bolsonaro que ha sido bien ejercido en el sentido de eliminar políticas públicas y enfraquecer instituciones públicas relacionadas a fiscalización control protección de territorios indígenas y florestales en general principalmente en la región amazónica pero también de los pueblos indígenas como la fundación nacional del indio que básicamente fue desestructurada y ocupada por personas como por ejemplo policías o evangélicos pastores evangélicos relacionados con campañas de evangelización de pueblos indígenas es por un lado y por otro lado una expectativa real de cambios normativos en el congreso sobre los cuales el gobierno no tiene el poder absoluto pero que están que están siendo promovidos por el poder ejecutivo y que generan la expectativa concreta en los territorios que están amenazados en la frontera del amazonas de que tierras indígenas y unidades de conservación pueden desaparecer legalmente entonces esa combinación entre un ejercicio administrativo restrictivo y la expectativa de cambios normativos a generar un aumento real de deforestación dentro de las tierras indígenas que sin antecedentes definitivamente antes del gobierno Bolsonaro y eso es lo que de hecho ha cambiado actualmente y que fue reforzado que la pandemia lo que tenemos es una desmoralización de de las tierras indígenas como institutos legales que están amenazados a una reversión normativa y que no tienen más el apoyo de instituciones públicas para su protección eso es la práctica se tradujo en aumento en media en los dos últimos años de deforestación de 80 por ciento dentro de las tierras indígenas antes del año 2018 cuando ocurrió la elección después con la con la pandemia ese proceso de deforestación continuó aumentando y se juntó con el hecho de que inicialmente con la pandemia algunos equipos de fiscalización y de policía que estudiaba y fiscalizaba las tierras indígenas se retiraron del campo una presión internacional muy grande sobre el gobierno Bolsonaro para que mostrará resultados en términos de la protección principalmente el bioma sonico lo que se tradujo en un cambio de operadores administrativos de fiscalización y eso tradujo básicamente que en retirar las agencias especializadas con experiencia en la región que sabían combater la deforestación y los crímenes organizados que están asociados a esa deforestación básicamente robo de madera minería ilegal y acaparamiento de tierras que son ibama y semibio ellos fueron retirados del campo en el sentido de que fue disminuido los recursos para que actuaron y que parte de sus cuadros efectivos también fueron retirados de la línea de frente y en substitución trajeron el ejército de el ejército de brasil que no tiene experiencia en combate a la deforestación y que usando muchos más recursos que esos órganos especializados no logró efectivamente reducir las tasas de deforestación entonces ese es un poco el el escenario general que está ocurriendo en este momento en brasil en términos de cambio normativo muy obrigado muchas gracias tibiani um good good of you to um you know you you've described how the deforestation has increased the uh oversight the the protective bodies in the government have been weakened um and you've talked about increased mining just a quick follow up and just looking for a brief answer but could you give us an example uh when it comes to mining i know that's something that for example davi copanawa yanomami said to me he's most worried about mining um illegal mining is this is this expanding and and and if so where can you just during covid how is how is covid uh affecting the mining situation in the amon bueno hay tres frentes de expansión grande que son el territorio kayapu territorios munduruku y los territorios yanomami voy a dar un ejemplo solamente para tener una dimensión de lo que está ocurriendo en el territorio kayapu el aumento de la deforestación asociada a la minería ilegal de los últimos cuatro años porque no es posible decir que eso es exclusivo del gobierno morsonado que tiene apenas dos años y los últimos cuatro años es el doble que toda la área de forestada durante los últimos 30 años por deforestación asociada a minería ilegal entonces nosotros tenemos hoy nomás una una estructura de minería artesanal dentro de las sierras indígenas de una estructura criminal industrial de gran escala que está destruyendo la floresta y los ríos en una escala realmente industrial sin precedentes el gobierno morsonado el año pasado en febrero entró con un proyecto de ley en el congreso de la republica con la promesa de que esa actividad ilegal será legalizada y eso estimula un aumento exponencial principalmente en sus tres sectores indígenas thank you that is very alarming development that does not get enough international attention thank you for raising that and thank you all as well just before we move on on the chat there's a lot of constructive comments a lot of offers of support so please keep that going that's really good to see let's move now to ruka in indonesia hi ruka now we heard in that report from khal that the indonesian government has or parliament has it introduced legislation to weaken environmental protections and and has also sort of introduced or at least accelerated the concept of indigenous lands as abandoned lands what's your response to this how can your organization and others deal with this and and turn something bad into something positive or stop it all together hello did we oh no did we lose the ruka we seem to have lost ruka my apologies i hope one of the technical team can try to re-establish a connection with her we are kind of spread literally across the world here so this is to be expected but let's shift shall we in the meantime to colombia and camilo camilo hello are you there hola camilo i can see you are on the screen so i'm assuming you can hear us let me ask you a question i know things are being translated so there's a little lag but in colombia the report has told us that the government has introduced a change to land use practice that the government has deprived indigenous people of their customary land rights can you please tell us more about this and and how is it affecting people in practice uh oh camilo has now disappeared from my screen as well camilo hello he's back he's back but i cannot hear him camilo hello hello camilo great thank you did you hear my question and can you respond when it's out i have a problem of intense signal because connectivity is one of the biggest problems that has affected the pandemic but first colombia has had a change legislative issue in the use of the areas that have had economic exploitation for part of the multinational and it has brought as a consequence that it has been defocating territories on all the territories that do not have legal security is the establishment of new obstacles this has happened in two points the first one has to do with the administration type obstacle where under the argument of the pandemic it is not possible to advance in requests um okay well uh i'm sorry to hear that because that sounded very important contribution but hopefully we can re-establish a connection and catch up with some lost ground um this is a a it's a bit of a a massacre of contributors at the moment online terms at least uh we have three of the four are offline at present so until we re-establish a connection with them um i think um i'll go back to you Viviani if you don't mind and i i on on the issue of mining we we we know that there's been from a government level some rollback some weakening i wonder if also indigenous people's rights and protections and support has been hurt just generally by the lockdown because support groups such as Institute of Social Ambiental and other NGOs maybe you guys are following the quarantine rules and not going to these areas but meanwhile the loggers the miners the land grabbers they're not following any quarantine rules at all and they're going in so they it's it's almost open season for them and i've heard that you know for example um in the shingu area uh that you know there there are moves to start a huge new mine called bello sun um and that now that there's kind of no alternatives maybe some people who previously resisted bello sun they they're they're not hearing an alternative they're only now being under pressure from mining companies from from those who want to push ahead with these projects even though these projects would damage their land in the long run um that's all they're hearing because because covid has actually altered the debate um i wonder if you could tell us a little bit about about that about the interactions um with with indigenous groups and riverine communities in that situation and then maybe we can go to um camilo because i think he's back but viviani if you could please go first thank you but then destaca es el oportunismo tanto de empresas como del gobierno delante de la situación de la crisis de salud pública que genera la la pandemia es es increíble que a pesar de esa crisis y de la necesidad del gobierno priorizar esfuerzos en llevar la salud del atendimiento en salud básica y en llevar información mínima necesaria para el entendimiento de la propia enfermedad y de las prácticas que pueden prevenir el contagio de la enfermedad en contextos culturalmente diferentes y en las propias aldeas donde hay un tipo de convivencia social colectivo diferente el gobierno no se esforzó en eso al contrario el gobierno del presidente bolsonaro se ha esforzado en un proceso de desinformación y las organizaciones indígenas de una de las cosas más importantes que han hecho ha sido organizarse para producir información tanto sobre los contagios como sobre los óbitos y la forma en que esa enfermedad de hecho afecta los pueblos indígenas y las informaciones que son necesarias para prevenir el contagio eso ha sido hecho a través de organizaciones indígenas la articulación de los pueblos indígenas de brasil está liderando proceso de notificación independiente y parcial de los datos sobre enfermos y muertes en los pueblos indígenas que ya son subregistradas por el gobierno que se niega a registrar por ejemplo los enfermos y las muertes de indígenas fuera de los territorios indígenas entonces toda la población indígena urbana está fuera de cualquier registro público y ha sido la organización indígena la que lo ha hecho por otro lado las empresas han han usado la posibilidad de crear excepciones al cumplimiento de por ejemplo protocolos de consulta que exigen consultas con todas las con toda la población dentro de los territorios indígenas y junto con el estado ha promovido que sean aplicadas consultas libre previo informadas a través de medios virtuales entonces están intentando sustituir los procesos de consulta de acuerdo a los protocolos establecidos por reuniones virtuales con algunos líderes que legitiman el avance de autorizaciones ambientales o de administraciones administrativas que es un verdadero oportunismo por parte de las empresas y el propio gobierno. Thank you very much indeed for that and a very important point about these virtual meetings instead of face-to-face meetings and the problems that can bring. I'm delighted to say not only is Camilo's apparently here but we can we now have Ruka back with her cat hopefully we'll get on to you in a minute Ruka let's first try Camilo because I asked him a question and he got cut off Camilo can you hear us and can you now answer the question about how the land use practice has changed in Colombia? We are talking about the fact that at the world level there has been a fall in the price of the oil and the position of the value of the gold and this has led to the economic reactivation and therefore the indigenous territories are affected and the consultations have a great relevance in this process that is being violated. The second is that the fundamental rights of previous consultations have been drawn to a subject of an agreement for the grant of the title of license, that is, it is becoming a single procedure to achieve environmental licenses much faster than the exercise of fundamental rights. And finally, the government wants to minimize the consultation process because it does not provide the guarantee for the fulfillment of the right. So that is one of the great difficulties that we are currently going through. Now, in Colombia we have a very great, very great because at this moment currently they are running in the National Earth Agency, which is the national authority for the issue of land acquisition for land acquisition. And something extraordinary is that last year, 2020, the National Earth Agency atendió 23 solicitudes, que ese fue una ganancia enorme también, una fuerza de institución, pero que es mínimo frente al tema de solicitudes. Por eso decimos que a este ritmo de formalización faltarían por lo menos 47 años para lograr el tema de estas formalizaciones que se tienen. Y con respecto al tema, por ejemplo, del tema de paz, que nosotros los colombianos y colombianos pensábamos que iba a haber un mayor avance significativo porque se afirmaba la paz en Colombia, identificamos que no ha habido un avance significativo en implementación de lo acuerdo de paz en lo que tiene que ver con la reforma rural integral. Por eso no existe hoy en día unas claridades sobre cuáles son las inversiones que se están presentando en las entidades para la respuesta a las solicitudes que hay. Eso sería como en resumen el cambio que en este momento se está dando y no hay una respuesta concreta de parte de los estados frente a las demandas territoriales que hay. Can you tell us is this leading to more violence, more conflict because of the sort of instability over who owns the land? And if so, how have you responded? How has indigenous people in Colombia responded to that? Hello, Camilo, are you there? Sí, escucha, buenas. En Colombia el tema de las consultas previas ha habido nada por el tema de la pandemia y esto se ha dado porque el ministerio del interior que es delante de la política de los pueblos científicas ha venido interpretando una serie de cosas que me escuchan. Hola. Hello, we can hear you intermittently. I think you need to maybe if you can talk very directly into the microphone, we can hear you and then not. So, Camilo, I think we've lost you on and off. I think if we can try and stabilize your line a bit, I'll try and get back to you. But in the meantime, Ruka is back, at least her dog, not cat. The dog is back. Sorry to your dog. Ruka, can you lovely to see you and have you back? Can you tell us now the report to how the report has told us that legislation by the government has weakened environmental protections and introduced this concept of indigenous lands as abandoned land? How has you, how have you responded to that? How has it manifested itself in Indonesia? Thank you very much, Jonathan. In fact, the concept of indigenous land in Indonesia being parkant or it's not something new. In nearly all planning processes since the beginning of Indonesia as a country, the reality that 40 to 50 million indigenous peoples occupying about 52 million hectares land throughout the Indonesian archipelago has been ignored by the economic powers that be including government planners. The internationally we that's the term that has been the invisible pupils. And this is due to the fact that we indigenous peoples have not been considered a development asset. But we rather a development liability by the state and therefore ignored or even intentionally made invisible on maps designed to facilitate land grabbing by corporations. And of course, this is a global problem that is not unique to Indonesia. And we've been talking about a lot about the data desegregation at international level. What the report point is to is the recently passed ambitious consolidating legislation in Indonesia. We call it omnibus law on job creations. It says job creation, but it is not actually this law is designed to facilitate local and international investment into Indonesia and reduce the existing few safeguards to protect the rights of indigenous peoples and our environment, our very our only mother earth. But also equally important that the way in which we the indigenous peoples interact with our territories and resources is also invisible to the government's planning and resource management actions. The indigenous peoples in fact we are self sufficient and we provide what globally called environmental services. These services are biodiversity protections, watershed protections, and we are keeping massive amount of carbon in our forest. From our maps, indigenous maps in Indonesia that we have in Amman now, it's more than 10 million, nearly 12 million hectares. 63% of this forest are good forest and storing nearly 9 billion tons of carbon. And these are all the carbons like above the ground and under the ground. But sadly, Jonathan, that all these global priorities and programs designed to support the forest climate at the moment have yet to into any significant way benefit indigenous peoples who are actually, we who are actually providing these services. And this is because of we are a continue being denied our rights as indigenous peoples and we are continue to be invisible. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Rukai. You made an extremely important point there. I think that indigenous people are not being recognized by government as a development asset. They're seen as a liability and this kind of thinking is behind so many of the problems that are faced not just by indigenous people but by countries. Because as you're suggesting, indigenous people can be part of their economic recovery. They can be part of the solution. Everyone's talking in the world, not everyone, but a lot of governments are talking about a green recovery. Indigenous people should be front and center in this green recovery and support from them should be part of this green recovery. So I think this is a really fundamental point that you raised. Sorry, I've got frog in my throat. Right. We are at the point where we were scheduled to go into question and answer. I hope we've received lots of questions from you in the audience. Please remember you can not the column on the right, but at the bottom of the screen you should see a way to send in questions. We've already started to compile one or two, which I will say to the participants that we have here. I would just add, I think this is thank you to the contributions. Thank you to this lovely audience out there that Camilo was having some technical problems. So if you look at 3.59pm, for example, Adam Lund has helped to answer one of the questions I addressed to Camilo on the issue of increased attacks and criminalization of human rights defenders. That there is a map out there showing the links between the two. There's a lot of great resources out there. Maria Arango II has offered resources to help answer the question. We are having technical glitches, but the humans are working together to try and solve it. Thank you all. So let's now move on to the question and answer section. I have had some of these forwarded to me from Neil Sorensen. None of you can see, but he's behind all of this organization. So let's start with question number one from Michael Rice. This question is an open question to all panelists. Where has the push for deregulation and rights rollback come from? Where has it come from? Is it the case that industry has seized the opportunity to justify rapid expansion to boost the economy? Or is it the case that governments in the study countries already had these plans and they're just using the pandemic to push them forward more quickly? So they can avoid awkward questions, avoid protests on the streets. So the question is about the drivers behind the trend, the drivers behind the rollback. Is it industry? Is it government? Any of you, Ruka, you've missed part, so you're welcome to take that first. Or Kahal, if you want a big top-down view on that, or Camilo or Viviani, I'm happy to take any of you. So whoever wants to chip in, raise your hand and let's take it there. Okay, Viviani, is the first to raise their hand? I've got quite a lot of questions, so if people could keep their answers relatively short. Thank you, Ruka. Yeah, thank you very much, Jonathan. I've got some very good questions, but I think we all knew how the corporations have been really taking chances and even make the best out of people hiding, because we are hiding, we are really hiding, we are on the lockdown after the pandemic started in Indonesia since early last year. The plan is, I could say, the concessions, the plan, the economic concession is already there, and it was already mentioned by the President during the inaugurations earlier in 2019. So what happened is they pushed through the legislation and they tried to make sure that all the deal that they have signed materialized or happening during the pandemic. So that's the problem for us, because when we are on the lockdown and then suddenly we have ongoing land grabbings, the numbers of land grabbings in Indonesia, and also when they're making, they also make the opportunity, they take advantage during the pandemic to really kick us out of the decision-making processes, because there's no way we can participate the public hearings, for example, during the pandemic, because it's just impossible to risk our life to go to see them. And then the other thing I think it's very important that it's a very clear answer from this pandemic that the global economy is failing. The current structure is no longer feasible. We need to restructure, we need, we've been talking about paradigm shift for centuries. This is the time, this is the time when the government's still dealing with pandemic from the economic perspective and we are actually unfolding, unfolding, uncoming pandemic in the future. And that's also what the message we received from our elders from indigenous territories. The uncoming pandemic, this is, this pandemic is just unfolding. If we don't change the way we treat our nature, the way we treat our human being, and then we are going further into the catastrophe. Thank you. Thank you. Another really important point there that indigenous people and these territories, they are not just a potential part of a recovery and a solution, as you said previously, they are also essential in preventing a pandemic happening again. So this is like a double function. You know, it's right at the center of things, instead of it's not at the periphery at all. It's at the center of this pandemic and should be treated as that. Thank you, Ruka. I'm going to try Camilo again. Let fingers crossed. The link is there. I cannot see you, Camilo. Unfortunately, your face does not appear on my screen. So I don't know if you're raising your hand, but I would like to get you involved. So let me just see if we can connect with you, and if you can answer this question about what are the drivers of these terrible trends? Well, thank you very much, Jonathan. First of all, in Colombia there is a phenomenon, and at the moment they are implementing the central reserve zone, and this is very linked to the issue of infrastructure construction. For example, you want to connect the Colombian Pacific with Colombian agriculture. And this is aggravated by the issue of the pandemic. The pandemic has caused problems that were being exacerbated. So we say here in Colombia that the pandemic showed the pandemic of what is happening in indigenous territories. While the indigenous peoples are watching how we are going to face the pandemic to minimize the impacts, on the other hand, the Colombian government has come looking to implement practical ways that are not contributing to the guarantee of rights. A topic that I was demonstrating was the virtual previous consultations that are not guaranteeing the issue of effective participation. And a problem of this is what is happening to me with the issue of connectivity. How are they going to guarantee a government where the rural areas do not have connectivity? 83% of the national territory is not connected. That is why I have had problems today. I am in a zone where I do not have participation. That is happening and is currently happening. The second thing I want to draw attention to is that the issue of human rights violation has been exacerbated, which has to do with the issue of the murder of social leaders. For example, since the peace agreement was signed until today, there have been 312 indigenous people murdered, of which last year, in the moment that we are facing the pandemic, there have been 114 integrants of indigenous peoples who represent the third part of the house. And this is due to the fact that all the murders that are being done are the social leaders who are defending the territory. That is to say, there is an environmental massacre behind all this. The second, the pandemic has also led to the extinction of the same traditional ancestral knowledge, because the majority of people are dying. The biggest report that is being given about the death of the pandemic is in people who have a spiritual leadership. Therefore, there is a traditional and cultural reasoning that has been presented to indigenous peoples. In some cases, it has been so serious that it has affected people who have few populations. Currently, a week ago in Colombia, a great leader who represented many indigenous peoples and it has been an impact that it has had. Another issue that we have identified is that there has been a lot of displacement, forced confinement of indigenous communities as a consequence of the presence of isolation between groups armed with the dispute of territorial control, which has meant for indigenous communities conditions of famine, massive exposure to COVID-19, and loss of territory. The next thing that we have identified in the March of the pandemic is that the countries do not have the capacity to reach the territories far away. That is why connectivity is not only the internet, connectivity is because places do not have access to how old the city is and everything is affecting it. So there is no tension with a cultural impact. There is a decrease in the guarantee of rights of the consultation. There is intervention in the territories by the multinationals. There is an increase in the presence of armed groups and there is little institutional response to the guarantee of territorial protection. And today there is a concern that must be a worldwide issue and it is that in the Colombian Amazon, all the departments, all the periphery areas of the Colombian Amazon are being deforested. And that is an impact that not only are they affecting indigenous peoples and the Colombians, it is an impact that will affect humanity in general. That is the concern of part of our country. That is why from the national commission of indigenous territories I have expressed many times that defending this territory is defending life. Here we need to put together effort between all and all in different parts of the world. We are living this. I was listening to Ruka's company, what is happening there? I was listening to the same in Brazil. Therefore, we must create an articulation issue to face this problem. Today the pandemic is physically ending many indigenous peoples, but also the action and the omission of part of the state in the institutional response has not been effective in addition to the multinational issue in our territory. Thank you Camilo for a very powerful intervention there. Your descriptions of the military situation, the situation of violence and threats is very alarming. Also, it is important again to stress that point you made about the question of connectivity and if free prior and informed consent has to rely on internet connections. We have seen today very clearly how difficult that is. In a way it is a handicap for people who live in remote areas. That seriously has to be borne in mind. Finally, that point you make about the importance of this globally, it is not just a question of communities in remote areas. This is of global importance. This further underscores those points that Ruka was making about the positive contribution that needs to be made. The central position that indigenous land rights need to be in as part of a green recovery. No point building lots of wind farms and solar panels in rich countries if you are destroying the forests in Colombia and the Amazon and the Brazilian Amazon. I think I will just go to Cajal if that is okay. Unfortunately, Rais Perez was not able to join us today for those same connectivity issues. I cannot ask you to speak on behalf of Peru, but you probably are familiar with the situation there from writing the report to some degree. Just so we can get a little bit of the Peruvian element in this as it is an important part of the report. What is your impression there? What are the drivers of the trends you are talking? We have been discussing here. Yes, it is a shame. Rais can't be here to give his perspectives because coming from the Wampi nation, they have a really inspiring story of how indigenous people are asserting its own autonomy and coming up with solutions to problems that they did not create. The States blind us really to the role indigenous people play in addressing these three major challenges. We talked about biodiversity, climate change, but also pandemics. These three challenges that we are going to face as a global community. But in Peru, as in all the other countries, these issues are so structurally entrenched. To try and unpick whether it is the stage or companies that are causing this rollback. This is always such complicity between both set of actors that it is always challenging to try and see where the issues come from. In the Peruvian context, for example, there has been huge devastation of territories in the Amazon by oil exploitation over 50 years. The states and companies have failed to remediate this. That is my view having been to these places and work with some of the communities that it is probably impossible to remediate this. But in the context of the pandemic, what we are seeing is the state-owned Peru Petro, which is a state oil company, coming together with the Ministry of Minds and Energy and saying that the oil and gas sector can be the motor for recovery from what the country is suffering as a result of COVID-19. Indigenous people's issues don't even come into the discussion. Yet we are in a context where there are such profound harms that need to be remedied. This is going on, as I said, for five decades. I don't think there is anything new here. It is just that Indigenous people are in a position where they are less able to challenge this and this is an opportunism, taking advantage of the fact that all economies are suffering. But looking at the old ways of doing things rather than facing these really three core challenges that we all face collectively as a global society. Just to link in very quickly to one of the questions I saw around due diligence and why is this important? Well, I think what we are saying in the report and what Indigenous people are saying is that governments that are home to supply chains for commodities or extractive industry companies they can play a really important role if they listen to Indigenous peoples in how to develop this due diligence guidance. And things like Viviani talked about the free prior informed protocols and laws that communities have developed. Well, if companies were required to respect those in their processes it would change the whole scenario. And it wouldn't address the illegal activities but it would at least free up Indigenous peoples their energy to try and tackle those rather than also be confronted with large-scale companies that are coming in and ignoring their rights in complicity you know complicit with the state actors. So it's a very complex picture there's many elements to it. But I think that each different actor can play their part in addressing that and trying to basically empower and support Indigenous peoples who are the main actors here and who are driving these changes and who have driven change in environmental law in human rights law. They're really the tip of the arrow in making this change happen and this relates to climate change and biodiversity. So we need to talk to them and see how we can best help them and direct that goes you know from financial side, technical side, work in collaboration with them. So I didn't get into Peru with that much you know detail but I think it's common issues that we're talking about across all of these areas. Thank you very much indeed. No I don't mean I can't expect you to represent another country but just didn't want them to be completely missed out just because of the technical problems. And we've had absolutely heaps of questions we're not going to be able to answer them all. In theory there's only 10 minutes left I think if people are willing we could run on a little bit. I see that's a suggestion in the comments. But let's try and at least do one more question to everyone, maybe two more. Here's a question from a journalist that I'd like to to ask the country participants and it's from Virna, my glasses are not very good, Virna Setiorini of Antara in Indonesia. Please forgive me if I mangled your name. She has asked to all the panelists, is there a win-win solution for economic opportunities and the fulfillment of the rights of indigenous peoples and deforestation reduction? If so what is that win-win solution where we protect indigenous rights in the forest and promote recovery and growth and improve the rights? Ruka this is close to your area to begin with. Could you start with the answer on this question please? Yeah hi Virna, thank you very much for joining tonight. I know it's late now but thank you very much for making the time. There is no such win-win solution. At this point in time it is the win for all or we are all being a loser in the end, yeah at this point of time. So win-win solution has been the language that always being used actually to trick us down because they always say we'll give you money, you win, we win, never. There is no such thing and especially at this time we see the global economy is collapsing to be honest and this is so scary to see it. So now is and in Indonesia we have proven as well that the economic valuations of our indigenous territories, as you speak about money from the economic perspective, we are actually contributing bigger amount of money than what those private companies are contributing to our local development. So when we talk about what is next, what is our better life and I think this is the time that we need to all come together. We are not against corporations yeah because indigenous communities in small scale is also a corporation by itself but how we do break down all this and then we can we can actually build better connection together from us indigenous peoples where all the resources are in our territories. How can we transmit that in more equal and better situation rather than what we have now which is what we have now is only benefit the few but the one that is being the the the companies now they're very few but they all in the end become a loser like us if we don't change right now. That's from my perspective. Thank you and your perspective Ruka had a lot of agreement on the chat room several people saying thank you yes it's win-win that got us into this crisis is as Alfred Roanel others say yes agree no win-win solution at the time being there is no win-win we are living in the age of the end of the team so yes a lot of support for your your view there so well I still like to put this question to Camilo and Viviani let's slightly rephrase it and let's just say what would you see as as the best way for indigenous communities to be protected and to contribute to the recovery that everybody needs you know not just economic but in our health in our well-being in our climate I think we the problem is often we just look at everything in economic terms and that's always too narrow and always benefits a small group the well-being is about so much more than how much money you have obviously so Camilo can you answer that can you if not if the lion is good now a silence in primer lugar si aquí estoy en primer lugar me parece una pregunta muy importante hay un tema que nosotros hemos venido exigiendo de parte de los pueblos indígenas y efectivamente comparto con la pregunta y la superencia que nos hacían una persona que está dentro del chat y es que debemos ser más incursion que los territorios colectivos salen los territorios colectivos porque están los pueblos afros y colombia y otros pueblos que tienen una manera de ver y relacionarse con el territorio en ese sentido uno de los puntos muy importante para salvaguardar la cultura las tradiciones y a los pueblos indígenas es la garantía al tema de la seguridad jurídica de los territorios y eso ligado al tema de la conservación por ejemplo hoy los territorios indígena es donde está más del 50 por ciento de los bosque de colombia y eso ligado al tema de la problemática que en este momento estamos enfrentando la humanidad que es el tema del cambio climático el cambio climático no está distinguiendo si es rico si es pobre etcétera todo nos va a impactar el cambio climático en ese sentido los pueblos indígenas tenemos un conocimiento tradicional para aportar a la adaptación y mitigación del cambio climático por lo tanto aquí debemos incentivar para que los gobiernos y los gobiernos de los estados de los diferentes estados contribuyan a agilizar el proceso de seguridad porque mucha violencia que se está dando en los territorios y en diferentes partes se da porque hay una inseguridad jurídica de los territorios y eso se marca por ejemplo en el caso colombiano que nosotros no sabemos exactamente que estado conoce cuántas tierras le pertenece entonces en conclusión mayor garantía de protección de los territorios colectivos redundaría o llevaría al tema de conservar más territorio conservar más territorio es enfrentar la problemática en este momento del cambio climático y eso nos beneficia a todos y todas la humanidad que en este momento no tenemos para un día muchas gracias thank you Camilo I wish I could see you to wave at you and not in agreement with you but you have my sympathies and appreciation and Viviani how about in Brazil can you give us the most positive outcome you can imagine in terms of the situation there I want to declare that I am absolutely agree with you with Camilo and that maybe the principle of this is to identify that it is not a problem of India, it is not a problem of the indigenous peoples, neither the deforestation nor the climate change nor the pandemics nor the contamination of the rivers and the soils is a problem of the Indians and that is the first thing that has to be done before we start to discuss which is the best option or if there is some alternative where everyone wins there are accounts that have not been done in a honest way historically and the account of the current state of the planet and of the human and global challenges that we have today as humanity on the planet have always been in a way unbalanced placed mainly above the backs of indigenous peoples of traditional communities that are in the territory of the border that are the last territories that remained to maintain a planetary balance and that is just a consequence that we have to recognize to make real alliances not only for a moral imperative and for a historical restitution that we have to do as humanity but also for an instinctive survival if we are not able to establish real alliances with these indigenous peoples we are not going to have a chance to maintain an existence worthy as a species and that is not only the indigenous territories, they are the indigenous peoples and their knowledge, the valorization of that as part of a real alliance is the only chance that we have the non-indigenous, it is not for the indigenous, it is for the non-indigenous and for humanity as a community as a species because definitely that segregation and distributing the work and the problem as if it were from the others will take us to no other solution. Thank you very much indeed that really kind of underscored the urgency of this and goes back to what has become a recurring theme which is that we really shouldn't be treating this as a peripheral issue in a remote place, this should be a central issue and I must just we've actually reached the normal end or the scheduled end of this panel but I just want to continue just for a tiny bit more, first of all a little housekeeping before I ask for a final comment from everybody, please check the chat it has some very useful links to the report itself which I think is important, I highly recommend you read it, a lot of useful data and information there, there are a number of other useful links and resources that people have kindly contributed, I should stress there is also a survey on what you think of this panel and please look for that link and if you have time it would be great to get some feedback and then there is an admonition of me a very gentle one of where I have failed to stress in that I've stressed Indigenous, Indigenous, Indigenous but of course this is not just about an Indigenous issue, it's also about traditional communities, riverine communities, it's about Afro-Caribbean descendants in Colombia or known as Quilombolas in Brazil so this is a you know it's a there's a lot of different groups under this umbrella and I apologise if I've kind of just for the sake of brevity if nothing else tended to stress Indigenous right but in fact there's a lot more to it than that, I'd like to I mean I'm sorry there's many questions we won't be able to get round to but I'd like to finish on a positive note or a forward-looking note let's say at least yes okay let you know we can see the situation is pretty grim but perhaps each of the contributors we have, the panellists we have can look forward this is a big year, it's a year of the Cumming Biodiversity COP, it's a big year of the Glasgow Climate COP, there's you know there's a lot going on in terms of corporate due diligence governments, if the panellists can make one suggestion for international policymakers or it could be international corporations or it could be their own governments, if they could stress one thing that they would like to see changed so that this situation in which Indigenous people, traditional peoples, Afro-Caribbean descendants at this moment when it's very difficult for their voice to be heard as before because they can't march in the streets in most countries, the internet connections as we've seen are not great, how can we amplify that voice and what one thing would you suggest to to kind of stress for for a positive change this year from these sort of international actors some of whom might be listening in today I'll start with let's say Ruka would you mind going first? Yeah thank you I think the decision makers when we talk about the Glasgow things they also need to really make a fairly big decisions the funding the opportunity for the future should not be going to corporates again and this is not only for the country but also for the big funders that have been funding all these companies so far what we need to do is we really need to build a better relationship between as you see as we see now we as we as we see now in across the globe that cities cities are the the most unsafe place under the sky today and the safest place is Indigenous territories where we still live in harmony with our nature this needs to be we need to be to build a new a new relationship so it's not like we are in the remote area we are the periphery and you're the central I think we need to shift that and then we build better connections better how do we live together how do we still support you how do how do we provide you food and we promise we can we can feed you it's not Monsanto that is feeding you now it is Indigenous and local communities who are feeding you now during this difficult time so these this is the the the lessons of today and we prove also in our Indigenous community that actually we don't know what is what's so called what people call in the city work from home we don't know that because we are on lockdown we produce food we produce a lot of things we are actually increasing our harvest during this difficult time and this is the offer that we we we can offer now on our hand to the global community but the first thing is I want to I want to tell the global leaders that the cheapest and most efficient investment is actually protecting and invest in Indigenous people's rights thank you thank you Ruka powerful stuff I'd stress and if you have a look on the chat all of these comments are being recorded you can find a link on the comments if you miss anything right now you can catch it later the last three contributions and and not too long if you don't mind because I'm sure people have got a lot of other places to get off to what's your views your suggestion thank you Jonathan I suppose it's simple in a way it's it's governments need to wake up to the risks that Indigenous people are facing because if they don't they're going to be complicit in the disappearance of these peoples so it's it first is waking up to that and on the other hand waking up to the value of their knowledge their traditional knowledge the services they provide to the to the planet and we all know that we are at a point where we need some form of transformational change it cannot be tinkering around the edges anymore so the starting point for this nobody has the solution but the starting point is to meet with Indigenous people under the basis of respect and equality and to listen to what they have to say and then together we can try to address this problem thank you very much Bibi Annie would you mind going next and we'll have Camilo last and I guess that means giving a louder voice in these big international meetings even if there's no internet and even if you know you can't meet in person governments are going to have to find ways to do that there has to be more support if we're going to live in a more virtually connected world then that has to support has to happen for that and and finally Camilo please can you give us your suggestion Camilo I can see you I can finally see you for a win when I can see us and we're talking about the grand cop ambientals se vienen haciendo tiene que hacerse con la participación de los pueblos indígenas se tiene que hablar con los dueños de los territorios estamos viendo ese fenómeno por ejemplo que nos está teniendo en cuenta la actuación de los cambios del cambio climático la participación de los dueños de los territorios sean indígenas o no sean indígenas de la misma manera las grandes políticas que se vienen a nivel internacional no está teniendo en cuenta la voz de los pueblos indígenas entonces es un llamado a los estados a las empresas que por muy buenas intenciones que tengas debe tener presente el tema de los pueblos indígenas y por último exigir a los estados que garanticen la seguridad de los territorios para evitar ese tema de informalidad que existe en muchos estados a nivel de la anatomérica y a nivel mundial entonces eso sería como un poco el mensaje y por último yo estoy convencido que si es posible crear un espacio en esta humanidad donde equipamos todos y todas en el marco de nuestras diferencias thank you Camilo for that final comment which is on a lovely positive engaging note i think that's been the tone of this discussion i've been delighted despite the technical hitches lots of brilliant ideas some grim reflections the report itself please read it but please bear in mind all of these very positive messages we have an audience here that is from all over the world in all in a wide variety of walks of life we can see from the chat which has been i've enjoyed almost as much as the discussions themselves lots of positivity in there and mutual support i think there's a lot of good stuff been going on today in the midst of a bad situation and i take a lot of encouragement from that i hope you can all go out with that message that we've heard again and again please listen to the voices of indigenous and traditional peoples in the forests and other biodiverse areas please consider the positive developmental and health contribution that they can make please make them more central in in debates i hope we can all go out and and spread that word a little wider so i'll leave it there and with a big thank you to everybody the my fellow panelists and to all of you out in the audience who've contributed very much to this i appreciate your participation and engagement and i wish you all much better times ahead cheerio