 Let's get into the meat of this discussion. We're going to go around each of our speakers and just reflect on some of the role of ICT in socio-economic development, the areas where the postal sector could perhaps get involved, and maybe we might hear some examples from the various regions where posts are getting involved in providing digital services or helping people get connected, things like that. Paul at the UPU, we might start with you. Paul, would you kick things off, please? Thanks, Sam, and it's a pleasure for me to begin this webinar. It was such an interesting topic that's relevant for our industry, and that is digital transformation. Digital transformation is now a key part of the development of all industries, and the postal industry is no different. And with the current COVID pandemic that unfortunately we're still dealing with today, then we have seen that that has pushed entrepreneurs, governments, important infrastructures like the postal infrastructure to embrace technology and to undergo a digital transformation. In the case of the postal sector, then it's responding really to the needs of the consumers. We were locked at home, we were unable to go to offices, we were unable to go shopping, and so we were looking for, as consumers, we were looking for an easy way to continue our lives. So we went online, and that's a general trend across the world. And that meant that businesses should go online as well, and service industry should go online. And so that's really driven this dramatic change for the postal sector to move into providing online services, but still fulfill a very important role, which is the bridge between the physical services and the digital services. And so it's not just about technology, it's not just about having access to online services, but many of us still eat physical food. We wear physical clothes, we're dealing with a lot of physical items in our lives. And the post has been an important national infrastructure to provide this physical connection between people, between businesses and people. And that's the same today. So as well as this digital transformation postal fulfilling still this physical connection. And COVID has accelerated the need for this. In most countries, the post has become an even more important national infrastructure, providing access to digital payment services, providing access to a distribution of social welfare using digital services and also physical services as well. And so this COVID pandemic has really, I guess, given a new impetus for the digital transformation of the post. However, in small island developing states, which is the focus of our discussion today, then there are some challenges in this digital transformation. SIDS tend to be confronted with some common constraints related to access to resources related to the size of their markets and the size of their economies. And the heavy dependence on a small number of external markets. And unfortunately during this COVID time, the markets were cut off. And so that created a lot of challenges. But still we saw that in SIDS and even within some of the regions that we'll be talking about today in the Pacific and the Caribbean, that post have embraced technology to be able to continue to provide relevant services, government services, e-commerce services, e-payment services that continue to help the economy of SIDS continue to be relevant. So I think I might leave it there at the beginning and then we can come back later on to some other points. Thanks, Dan. Thank you, Paul. And great comments there about the post as an enabler of communication. It's always been that way. So how we can look forward? Well, let's not ruin the rest of the conversation by me getting carried away. We'll move to Rodney Taylor in the Caribbean. Rodney, would you like to share some comments, please? Sure. I mean, Paul said it really well. That was a really nice comprehensive introduction to the top there. The only thing I would, I observed in terms of his comments about us still wearing physical clothes. I guess that's until we move into the metaverse, right? And we're all avatars. But he framed the argument very nicely in terms of how the opportunities, very big opportunities for small island states to participate in global trade using digital technology. But also the challenges of being small and being vulnerable, small markets sizes and so on. But we have to continue to drive this because if we don't, we're going to, it's only going to get worse, certainly from a small island developing state. If we don't, if you're not connected to the global economy through digital channels. And if we don't provide opportunities because part of the opportunities is around the creation of digital goods and the selling of creative content. For example, the marketing and selling of creative content opportunities to promote all that the countries have to offer, by the way, we have tourism or financial services or any such aspects of the economy. So this is that's where some of the opportunities are. And certainly from the postal perspective, Paul is definitely spot on as I would expect him to be in the pandemic we saw a move towards greater delivery of goods and services. I would say we didn't go back further in the early days of the internet when everyone thought that the internet was the death of postal services, quickly opposite. In fact, people, many post offices because their community base provided opportunities for things like internet cafes for those persons who did not have internet access or access to devices. So to this day they continue to provide support for things only applications which are complex which may require a level of digital skills or digital literacy. Post offices can facilitate those postal services can facilitate those. They certainly can act as service bureaus for for government services so that it's a one stop shop access to all government services in one place. So there are many opportunities, many challenges and hopefully collectively as we work together. We can help those countries around the world and happy to see the participation here today from across the world and our, our brothers and sisters from from the Pacific Islands and we look forward to collaborating with you beyond this discussion today. Thank you. Thank you Rodney and Franklin might move to you now if you'd like to share some comments on ICT and the posts and development in your area. Thank you very much. Well, as Paul and Rodney went a little bit more into the general terms, I always like to be disruptive and talking about ICT and digitization in the post work. I will say, for all those postal organization of executive in this meeting, you will be out of business. Unless, unless our postal organization abandoned their comfort zone and seek to develop innovation models to support organization to continue to provide the regulated services to the community, but also to enable development of our small island nation. I would like to on the right that it is not a matter of choice, but if we do not take the needed step today towards digitization, then you, when you return home, you need to put the out of business sign forever. Although digital transition is mainly driven by technological saveness, it will only succeed and benefit the whole community if it simultaneously provides connectivity and access as Rodney mentioned and facilitates economic growth and development. But the good news is that Rodney mentioned is also then that digitization has created a lot of opportunities for the portal sectors, which I would like to name a few as recommendations for what we did in Curacao back then when I was the postmaster general. For the postal services to be able to compete effectively, they need to change drastically. They need to speed up digitization of their products urgently, otherwise, they will be out of business. And Rodney said they still alive because everybody thought the internet would be the end of the poster sector. Yes, still, a lot of people like to communicate through polls because the connectivity is not that high in our sits but in the near future with more connectivity. So if the postal sector did not step up their game, they really will be out of business because the private sector will take over the private operator will take over. So I urge the postal operators that they undergo a cultural change as well as rethinking technology. The postal sector should be managed commercially. I believe, especially in the region, I see that whenever there is discussion about transition or modernization. The political environment has a lot to say in the way the postal sector are managed and I believe the organization should be self organizing and take their digital transition in their own hands. The teams should be more on top of the transition and come up with modern or digital products. But to be able to do that, I think there is a role for UPU as well as maybe perhaps ITU to organize a ministerial, high level ministerial meeting to get those decision maker or policy makers engaged in this process. So I believe I can say a lot of this but because I've been on both sides of the aisle, I've been as a postmaster general and now since the last six and a half year, I'm the regulator. There's a lot that can be done and really, really, really, I mean it if they do not change the way they manage the postal sector, that specific postal organization will be out of business. I'll leave it to here but I welcome any comments or questions that might be accessed to elaborate a little bit more on my vision and my thoughts. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Frank. We're going to come back for a general discussion after everybody's had their say and you've peeled off, peeled the skin off a couple of wounds there. Frank, things like how politicians might be involved in the digitalization. Anyway, we'll come back to that later on. We're going to head now to Samoa. So would you like to share some comments with us please? Okay, thank you very much for the opportunity. Yes, I would like to add more. I think I agree. I can say I agree with what other speakers mentioned about the role of ICT play or role of technologies play in our fields nowadays, especially with economic development. In the education sector, it was a totally shift from the traditional with this pandemic, the global pandemic that everyone is affecting. It's a totally shift from the traditional way of teaching and learning into a modern and digital transformation that gives us more, you know, introducing us to different models or platforms that we deliver and learn. I think I can relate to Franklin to mention about the postal sector. If they don't change their mindset of how to make business and how to continue, it will be the same. It will be the same. I can say it's the same venue for education sector. If we don't change the mindset of our people that this is it. We need to go with it. We need to use the to transform our way of thinking of a way of delivery using the technologies available. We can go with the world because it reduces the transaction costs, you know, it can connect and give more collaboration between the lectures or the teachers and the students. It gives them more opportunities and closer to their student. So it's a lot of, we look at the positive way of how the technology play its important roles in developing of economy in our seats. We are so far away from the world with this geographical locations, but with the technology we have, it keeps, you know, we are connected, like we are now. Different time zones without this technology we can't communicate and we can't share, we can't collaborate, we can't cooperate to solve something. So I'll leave it there for now, but I can add more and interact with the others. Thank you. Thank you very much for that. And we'll move to Andrea now. Andrea, you've got some opening remarks and some slides to share with us. I'll hand it over to you. Yes. Thank you. Can you see the slide? Yes, we can. Yes, okay. Yes, I mean, just to echo what Sarai was saying before, I mean, this is a simple graph that shows how Pacific Island countries and also Caribbean, you know, they are on average, smaller than on the X axis, you can see the population and the Y axis, you can see the distance from the main markets. And like Sarai and other speakers were saying, I mean, you can clearly see that the Pacific even more than the Caribbean is on average, if you like, smaller and on average, more distant than anybody else from the rest of the world. So clearly for the Pacific, any option that is able to to reduce, if you like, the tyranny of distance is something that should be pursued in any area can be education. It can be it can be commerce, it can be any other areas held as well. And so from from a trade perspective, I mean, the e-commerce is something that e-commerce or if you like the application of ICT enabled channels to trade is something that allows business to reach out to their clients as well as to other businesses across the globe in an easier way. And by doing so, it can obviously, for a business, for any business, it will be easier to start and to operate. And also, and also obviously, if that's the case, if that's the case, that's the case, certainly in the good sector but also in the services sector. If you think about some for some services, I mean, the tyranny of distance can be completely eliminated by the application of ICT enabled technology to commerce. And that's if you like the reason why e-commerce was included, as I was saying in the introduction as a priority of our Pacific aid for trade strategy. And as part of the work of our organization Pacific Island Forum Secretariat, we started working on e-commerce back in 2017 by undertaking diagnostic studies on the, if you like, on the determinants of an enabling environment for e-commerce. And one area of those determinants, one area of the enabling environment for e-commerce is obviously the area of trade logistics and trade facilitation. And this is why the partnership with the UPU and with the postal sector started to develop. At the Pacific Island Forum, together with our partners between 2017 and 2021, we developed around 11 diagnostic studies on e-commerce, one for each of, almost each of our members using a standard methodology developed by the UMPTAD. And this diagnostic study then were consolidated in the regional study that then eventually informed the development of a Pacific e-commerce strategy and roadmap. These strategies includes 54 regional measures and it was approved back in August 2021 by our ministers. And now, after approval, the work that we are carrying on is focusing on implementation. And the role of the post, if you like, is explicitly embedded in the strategy and the roadmap. And within this area, obviously the strategy and roadmap identifies a number of priority actions that we want to pursue a regional level with the support of IPU and our partners. And we identified in the strategy three main areas where we think that e-commerce can be enabled by cooperation with the postal services. The first area of cooperation was the deployment of custom declaration systems. The second area of cooperation was, of course, like we have talked about the modernization of the postal operational processes. And the third area was the adoption and development of addressing system, be it physical system or geolocation system. Now, with regard to the CDS, to the custom declaration system, our strategy noted how this system allows for the custom information coming along with the parcel to be shared electronically with the receiving post operator before the package is sent. And also, the strategy notes how this system can be interfaced with the custom automation system that we have in the region, which is as it could. Now, from this point of view, the adoption of CDS in the Pacific Island Forum countries plus and interfacing with Asicuda cannot only speed up the clearance of e-commerce parcels but can also respond to the legal requirements adopted in some countries that require, you know, the delivery of advanced cargo information. This is a system that we are already piloting in Vanuatu and that we hope that if the pilot is successful, this is something that can be replicated regionally so as to enhance our e-commerce infrastructure. Of course, on postal services there is something we can talk later on, but essentially our strategy recommends the establishment of a regional program which can leverage the tools of the UPU, both on e-payments, operational readiness assessment and strategic e-commerce readiness assessment to improve the ability to deliver effective and efficient e-commerce solution of postal operators. If you look at the data for the Pacific, for example, you see that I just look at the data from UPU and compare with those from, you know, if you like, a courier like DHL, that for example, in order to send a package of half kilo between the Pacific and the UPU is on average between 40%, sorry, UPU, the postal service is on average 40% to 66% cheaper than the private sector, but then the problem is like, you know, the speakers before were referring to is not just the fact of being cheap is a very good starting point, but the system needs to be fast, it needs to be reliable, it needs to be traceable, it's something that each consumer and business wants. So in order to achieve these results, the development of a regional program is what our strategy recommends. And then finally, you're talking about small island, you're talking about places with lots of rural areas that are without an addressing system and obviously for a business or a consumer being located in this area is either difficult to buy by using e-commerce or even to sell. So definitely the adoption of a street addressing system, for example, as this being piloted currently in Samoa or alternative geolocation system using alternative software like Google Plus code or even local software that are available in the Pacific is something that should be implemented in order to improve e-commerce readiness. That's the reason why at the piece we are promoting the development of this regional program with the UPU based on the example of what the UPU is already undertaking in the African region. There the UPU is implementing a very interesting model which leverage not only their own technical expertise, but also partners from developed countries, in that case France Post, to build capacity in a selected number of countries. In the Pacific Island region we are fortunate to have amongst our members of Australia and New Zealand, Woods Post could potentially play a similar role to what France is undertaking in Africa within the context of this UPU model. And a final other two areas of cooperation that we are pursuing with UPU and with the postal system in general is there, how can I say, is there, I mean, the post cannot be seen in isolation from the rest of the e-commerce system. When I was saying at the beginning that we are undertaking e-commerce assessment in the different areas of e-commerce readiness, obviously logistics is one of the many elements that makes sure that e-commerce can work. And therefore it is important that the postal services we fully involved in the regional e-commerce governance system that we are currently developing the Pacific in this case through the participation in the regional and committee and subcommittees where all the actors of the e-commerce ecosystem will be able to determine the direction of the e-commerce governance going forward. And finally of course the post can be an important provider of statistics because a lot of time we talk about what are the determinants and we have a lot of information on what can be the determinants of e-commerce but unless we have information on what is the result of moving these determinants in order to generate e-commerce then it's difficult to understand whether our policies are effective or not. And that's the reason why information from the postal system can be very important to understand the effectiveness and efficacy of our policies for e-commerce. I think I'll stop here and then we can, you know, I would be happy to answer any question later on. Thank you. Well, thank you, Andrea. There's a lot to chew on in just those few slides that you've presented. One of the other things that's probably outside of the scope of our discussion today is even how can the bigger postal operators help? You mentioned in that region there's Australia and New Zealand, what would the role be of larger countries? Would you call them a developed company? Whatever the phrase might be. Yeah, we might. Well, that's something for us to mull over over the course of this webinar now. We have a poll that we're going to launch. So it's going to appear, oh gosh, it might even jump up on your screen when we launch it. So you can see the poll, in your opinion, what are the main obstacles preventing the posts of SIDS from successfully digitalizing their activities? So as I say, vote early, vote often. You can only vote once, I think. But please select the options that you think are the main obstacles. And we're going to come back to that later on. So please do get voting. And as I said, we'll come back to the poll later on. And I know some of you've already popped a few questions in the Q&A. If you have any questions, please do pop it in the Q&A and we will get to them as we go along. While people are voting and thinking up their questions, Paul, I might just ask you a leading question, which is really relating to technology. Technology has been the big theme we're talking about today. And our panelists have mentioned about technology's role. So what are your immediate thoughts about how technology overall can play a role in something like the economic development of SIDS? We've seen a little bit out of Andrea's presentation as well. Would you have some comments just to start a conversation, please? Yeah, and thanks. And I think actually I want to follow on from some of the points that have already been brought up by some of our panelists in this regard, because technology is an important facilitator of economic growth in a number of different ways. And in terms of the postal sector, then technology is really important to encourage the relevance of the post for government policies. And I think it was mentioned by a couple of speakers about the importance of having convenient services, of having secure and reliable and efficient services. And these days, technology is vital for that. Economies will stall, postal growth will stall, if the relevance, the reliability and the convenience of services is not addressed. And that goes for governments as well. So government services has been a big push within the UN for the digitalization of government services for economic growth. So technology now is at the foundation of economic growth in all countries. And what we have seen at the UPU is that where governments, operators and regulators work together in the transformation, in the digital transformation and adoption of technology, is that diversified services lead to better performance of government departments, lead to better performance of postal operators. And around the world that's the case where postal operators have used technology to diversify into financial services, into e-commerce services, as I think as Rodney mentioned, into community access points as well, where posts can not just provide access to technology, but then can be a facilitator, a capacity building resource to help people use technology appropriately. Technology is not the solution. Connectivity is obviously very important, and it is one of the challenges that that Rodney mentioned is still to be addressed. There is still a significant proportion of the population that are unconnected. And so the connectivity issue is relevant, but once people are connected, then there needs to be a lot of capacity building to help them become online businesses, become online consumers. And this is where the post can actually play a very important role just by leveraging the network that's available in many countries. Now, in small island states, that that's not necessarily as large an issue as it is in some of the bigger countries. But like we see in many seeds that posts are providing, for example, in French Polynesia, posts are providing access to administrative documents online and facilitating the physical distribution of those documents. In Tonga, there's an online postal shop. So the post is facilitating access for small and medium enterprises to be able to sell online. Again, in French Polynesia, the public internet access points provide access for consumers and for businesses to be able to go online. So these are like fundamental services that can really bring value and really support economic growth. Because one of the challenges that seeds face is not just access to technology, but also resources. And people in digital transformation, it's well known that digital transformation is about technology, but also about people and about processes. And that's where an institution like the post can play a very important role. But picking up on the point made by Franklin that there needs to really be a culture change. And that culture change starts from the top. And it also starts from governments, I think, reflecting on what may appear to be a tendency to relegate the postal sector outside of development strategies when we're talking about digital transformation and the digital economy. But we've seen, as I mentioned before, that countries where the post has been embraced as part of the national strategy for governments, as part of the national policy for the development of the digital economy, that there has been a better performance by those countries and by those postal operators. So at the UPU, we're really reinforcing our efforts in response to that to strengthen the work that we put into small island developing states and encouraging greater awareness for governments and regulators to integrate post in national strategies. We have a program on digital transformation and digitalization of postal services to support that. So we are providing assistance to member countries. I just mentioned a project that we've been running on digitalization in Africa, and this is actually working with the government, the postal operators and the regulators, and other stakeholders in the digital economy to unlock the power and value that the post can bring in that area. So we've successfully executed that in 10 African countries. We are currently in discussions with the PIFs and some donors in the region as well, including some of the large countries that you mentioned, and to be partners in executing these digital assessments on the capability of the postal sector. And then to make recommendations to governments regulators and operators on steps that they can take in their digital transformation to accelerate the digital transformation and the value that the post can bring. And we've identified as part of these projects, you know, a number of actions that governments need to take to integrate posts more effectively so that there is complete inclusion of the economy in the development of the digital services. Franklin, do you want to quickly add something? No, no, I just make a comment to a colleague, so. All right, I thought you were late. Sorry for that. I will come to you in just a moment. We're going to close our poll and see what the results are over the poll. So if the team at the UPU can close the poll, we'll be able to see the results. And they displayed, you're probably seeing them on your screen right now. So what are the main obstacles? Limited funds comes out on top, insufficient untrained human resources, lack of know-how, lack of equipment. Interesting, weak or unstable internet connection only ranks there as fifth. Internet coverage is similar sort of thing. Perhaps if we add them together, we have a much bigger proportion. So there we go. There's some interesting results there from the poll. I wanted to ask you a question about, because we're talking about digital inclusion. And one of the, we often talk about getting people on board and the role of getting people going, maybe you can't become a digital native, but becoming familiar with the digital world and the pitfalls involved. What's been your perspective of getting people involved in the online world and then perhaps being buying online or using digital services in the palm of their hand or using digital services at the post office, things like that? Do you have any observations or comments there please? Okay, thank you for that question. Yes, I agree with what you said, and it's happening here in Samoa. The way that we buy in our people to get use this digital transformation services from the education point of view, it's the awareness and making people to digitally literacy, excuse me, to be familiarized of what's up there, because we can't leave them. We don't want to leave anyone behind. So it's the problem is the lack of awareness. And also the people that you access into this technology is the older age. When it comes to education, it's the young people and they are dependent on their dependence to get the technology to them, to get the devices to them so that they're familiar and engage. With this digital transformation, without the device, without the connectivity, which is the major issues, thanks Paul for mentioning that, thanks Franklin for mentioning that too. It's here in the Pacific. Our major issue is the connectivity, access and affordability. As shows in the ball, it shows that what we have, what we're experiencing. So what we're bringing to our community is more awareness. And this more awareness, it has to come across the board, not only in the education sector or in the classroom or with this digital education, but going to the community where we have our families. Because with this technology that we enable to communicate and collaborate more with better economy for our, our regions. As I said that the digitization, the digital transformation of any sectors. It all depends on the technology we have. So awareness, more awareness, people to become digital literate so that they understand with their data protection, their data privacy with this type of security because it comes with those threats. So the technology, the people, the regulations, the awareness, those are the things that we need to work on and work together so that, you know, we're in a safer place. So yeah, I think I'll talk more when you ask another question, but I think that I answer your question is the first part. Is that right? Yeah, yeah. I think it's also always interesting to talk about a personal level as well, because obviously each of us knows how to use a computer everybody connect this must have some idea how to use a computer. We have the issue of the digitally disadvantaged and making sure that as we as an industry transform to become, I don't say digital first but certainly digitally enabled that we are able to bridge that gap somehow. Which is a real challenge for policymakers. And frankly, I had a question I wanted to put to you. As you mentioned you used to be the PMG you've got now in the regulator seat and you must have a fair idea about the whole political scene as well. And one of the things Paul said was that diversified services can lead to better performance of governments. I think you might have said commerce as well Paul but do you have any comments you'd like to share about that about how you know that that digital transformation especially in a SIDS environment might lead to better access to services or better outcomes out of government and things like that. I believe, and I will combine it with one of those results of the polls. Digital ICT or ICT tools. If you think about the government, what are the government, what are the services of the government that can be digitized. And I believe the post can play a major role in there to combine it with the highest score issue of the poll which was lack of a sufficient fund. I might ask if that's really the issue. The lack of funds, or is it the lack of having a financial plan. Because if you see all those opportunities that ICT brought to the post world, well they can use their current infrastructure to, I believe, or I'll dimension it, a one stop shop, or maybe it was Paul, one stop shop out of the postal infrastructure by the postal organization has a lot of data. They can create an eGov tool because if the government itself of the administration doesn't have enough speed to implement an eGov system where all those government services of public services can be provided through a single point of sale like one stop shop. With all the data that the postal organization possesses, it can start the process of digitizing the government products. So, then it comes back to what I've mentioned that perhaps UPU together with the CTU or ITU can organize a high level ministerial meeting because most of the time when talking to politicians or the policy makers, I feel that there is a lack of information by them what the postal organization can really mean to the community, how you can use it to in benefit of the community, the postal sector, they know all the customers, the last mile, nobody knows it better than them. So if you want to give a push to the economy by using all the data, the expertise that the postal sector had, by converting the postal operators into a really one stop shop or shared service organization where all those other administrative organizations of the government can, you can provide their services through a digital platform at lower the cost, it can be more accessible to the community, they have the last mile. It's a lot to mention, but I don't believe that lack of money is the issue here. I believe that as I mentioned, if the postal sector undergo a cultural change, rethinking, rethinking technology and create a sound, financial plan, then the issue of lack of funds doesn't exist and the government should give the postal organization more autonomy in raising their fund and creating the because most of the time whenever a postmaster general wants to pursue an avenue, then the political will is not there to give them the power or let them be self organized to give that type of benefit to the community. So yes, I believe the postal sector can play a major role in that and there's no lack of money. Well, what I was going to suggest is that if you are a postmaster general or a postal leader, and you want to reform the post, and you want to be able to embrace digitization or offer a government services, you kind of need a willing partner in government by the sounds of it. Otherwise you are working against the government. So, you know, if I, if I may, that's true. But what we did in 2010, 2011, we created a business plan. We didn't have any money, but we created a business plan and presented to the community to the consumer and the government. And we move ahead with e-commerce. We was able to get some funds based on that business plan from the government. We invested in a platform. And as you said, the postal sector can be, can give the opportunity to the merchants to sell their products online. We created a platform called Right to the Door. So all the local merchants could have joined that platform with their product, sell their products through that platform. And the post office would deliver because nowadays the family, the mother and the father both working. And when they leave office, they have to go to look after their children and they don't have time to go to stores to shop and those kind of stuff. They could shop online and the post office can deliver it at the time they, they requires the product to be, to be there for them to receive it. So there's a lot of opportunity if you create a sound business plan. If you have to persuade the power to persuade the politician, the government, you will be able to raise the funds to make the post office really commercially managed instead of like a public servant. So we've received. Yes, we might move on a little bit. We've received a question from the audience. Remember, you can ask your own questions by clicking on the Q&A button and type in your question there and I will pose it to the panel here. The question is, it's come from John, I'm sorry, John, if I've mispronounced your name. How can the postal sector contribute to the achievement of SDG8 on the promotion of financial inclusion? That's for anybody who'd like to jump in. How can the postal sector contribute to the achievement of SDG8 on the promotion of financial inclusion? But Paul, you want to have a quick word? Yeah, let me start off the discussion and maybe other people can jump in. I think so financial inclusion is one of the key opportunities that postal services provide. Actually, the World Bank in their report state that remittances through postal channels are the cheapest amongst remittance options. And so many posts are actually very well positioned to help with the inclusion of the community in financial services. And this is something that is a big push from the UPU. We have a complete financial inclusion and digital financial services program, which is investing in digital financial services in a number of countries around the world with the support from partners who are experts in the provision of financial services. And so posts have been shown by the World Bank to actually be key facilitators of financial inclusion and achievement of the SDG8 goals. And it's something that UPU has a very strong program on and we are encouraging this as part of this diversification of services that I mentioned before. Andreas, want to share a comment on this? Yeah, I want to share a comment on that because Paul mentioned that UPU is very much involved in the finance services or money remittance services. Up to lately, I was a little bit confused why UPU was charging the postal organizations for being part of, I don't recall what the name is, of the money remittance services of the UPU. And my advice was that the UPU implement a pay-as-you-go concept just like the other private operators do, like MoneyGram, like Western Union do, instead of the postal sector to have to pay upfront for joining the program. And I'm happy to have learned lately that as of July, that's no longer the case that UPU has abandoned that path and have the postal sector pay just an installation fee and implemented the pay-as-you-go concept for the money remittance. Because as Paul mentioned, the postal organization is close to the community and there is where you can really, really start the financial inclusion. We have to move away from the outdated postal money order and just grab the modern money order system, money remittance system from the UPU and it should be branded on the one brand. And not that the Latin America and the Caribbean use one name of the brand and UPU or Europe use another name for the brand, but no, it should be marketed on the one brand just like MoneyGram, Western Union is all over the world on the one brand. So these are those things that I believe can create a much larger acceptance by the public and everybody knows that when you go to the post office, it's this channel and it's cheaper than all the other competitors. So that's what I wanted to add to what Paul mentioned on the money. Yeah, frankly, if I may just sorry, sorry, and just to extend that a little bit more, I think the future of postal payment services is actually supporting the relevant transactions which are in the digital economy. So not just remittances and actually the future is for e-commerce payment support. The future is for e-government payment support. And so that's the direction that the UPU is going with with the facilitation of financial inclusion, because then that really brings real value in all of the transactions that governments or consumers really want to do. And it's one of the challenges for e-commerce is Andrea and his great work is being done in the Pacific. The payments infrastructure is a key challenge. And parts have a really interesting role to play in bringing these payment delivery and online support services. And so yeah, that's the direction that the UPU wants to take this discussion in the future. Rodney, sorry, Franklin, I might just throw it to Rodney because Rodney's very, very politely put his hand up. That's fine. Thank you. And very good points again by Paul. I'm aware of a project on the way, in fact, in Barbados. I'm sure it may be replicated elsewhere, but where KIA is being installed in post office to a private service provider. And those KIAs are to enable access to mobile wallets, for example, so you can onboard your cash if you don't have a bank account. So certainly that will go a long way in promoting financial inclusion. And post office, again, because of their trust, the community aspect of it, then provides a perfect opportunity to provide that facility and also the training that is necessary. And I'll just say one thing as well is that the, I think, Postal Secretary needs to recognize that the brand, there is a brand in fact, and the dot post top level domain that is that is being, that is being managed by the UPU I think is something that they can build on to the agenda or build further on that, that concept of trust, so that users are well aware that it is a legitimate provider of postal services, and the issue of cybersecurity, that there is there can be a level of confidence as they use those postal services and certainly that is critical if you're talking about financial inclusion and encouraging online payments and so on people have to understand or believe that they're operating in an environment of trust. Thank you. We might move on unless anybody else has anything else to add on this topic of financial inclusion. Well, Andrea, I know we've been letting you sit there, listen to everybody I might get you just to elaborate a little bit you mentioned three, three core points there with regards to the role of posts or how they can help those customs declarations modernization of processes and addressing systems. As we live in the very global world now, what's the importance of those customs, getting those customs systems right so facilitating the declarations, getting small value items through through customs and at the same time, at the risk of sending restrictions, you know, protecting borders and protecting local supplies you just share a few comments on that and how that how this can play a role indeed in the economic development of small island states in particular in the Pacific. Well, yes, thank you. I must say, you know, I'm not being a custom expert, I can tell you what they tell me on this, and what they tell me from the country where they're having this pilot is that basically that you were referring to everything that is going through e-commerce is very difficult to trace. And from a custom point of view, this means that they're losing revenues. So that's that's a key interest of customs, especially in countries like some countries in the Pacific where in some actually we don't have an income tax. So we rely, most of our finance relies on impurduities. So you can imagine in a world where, you know, e-commerce is ballooning, one key interest of the customs services is to make sure that what enters and what exit is subject to taxation. So that's the classic interest of customs. Then there is another function of custom that can be undermined by the fact that e-commerce parcels are not well accounted for, which is the statistics. The customs are in terms of trading goods are the main provider of statistical merchandise. And the more, and as the quantity of small parts are imported and exported by electronic means increases, that there is an interest of custom for statistical purposes to track them. So I think these are two items. And then there is the third one, that I suppose that concern more kind of the area of trade facilitation. Obviously, you cannot treat small parts of trade in the same way as you treat, you know, big containers. Yeah, she has containers and so forth. And so there are, as I understand, there are good practices elaborated by organizations like the WCO, which allow simplified or expedited shipping of. So these if you like is, I think that answers the question from a custom point of view. And then of course there is the issue of speed, and there is the issue of legislation around the world. Now, the issue of speed is clearly related to the ability of, you know, the post office in the receiving countries to have advanced information on the parcel coming from the sending countries and being able to share this information with custom, because that contributes to the speed up of clearance. And then finally, I understand that in some developed country, but that poll I think can elaborate much, much better than I can. In some developed countries, unless there is this advanced information that can be provided on the parcel that are sent, there starts to be legislation in kind of US, you understand also China, which may eventually prevent countries to engage in e-commerce unless this advanced information is provided so to avoid fraud or illegitimate trade and so forth. So there are a number of issues that link, if you like, custom posts and e-commerce and that can be addressed by linking these three systems for the benefit of revenues, trade facilitation, expediting clearance or efficiency and eventually complying with anti-fraud or illegitimate trade. These are some of, as I say, I'm not an expert, so I tell you what they tell me in this area, but this, if you like, is in a nutshell that justifies the importance of that recommendation on CDS. Does anybody have any comments on this before we move on to another question that's come in from our audience? No, if not, we'll move on. Yeah, Paul, do you want to quickly say something and then... I see Sarai has raised her hand. We'll go to Samar first. Sarai, would you like to say something, please? I just want to add down what Andrew said. From the Samar perspective in terms of the postal, recently, they're installing a postal addressing system here in Samar. They're starting, I think it was they started last year and I'm sure Andrew are aware because we're dealing with this e-commerce pathway from the BIFs. So we're moving towards it. So with these systems to be installed, a proper infrastructure should be installed first. A proper assessment infrastructure, if this digital transformation, an infrastructure should be there for the system to work on. And yeah, we're moving towards it. Postal addressing system is there and that's the things that limit the scope of e-commerce, but if we do it properly, then we'll improve the e-commerce as we speak of today. Thank you. Paul, did you want to quickly say something as well? Yeah, I just wanted to follow on from Andrea's excellent insights into the importance of electronic data for border and customs clearance. And just take another sort of angle to that and it comes back to an angle that I think either Rodney or Franklin mentioned before about again about positioning the post in a relevant space for policymaking. And so the data that can be collected by going digital, then you obviously improve the efficiency of processes as Andrea mentioned and improve the performance and speed, but you also gather incredible intelligence about what's happening. And so that data that's being collected can actually inform policy makers on how to address changes in structure, the changes in policy that can help accelerate the development and particularly for SIDS because there's a leapfrog opportunity here with the use of technology. The great advantage that SIDS have is that they don't have a lot of legacy systems to battle with compared to large economies. And so there could be the opportunity for access and use of new technology and data that comes from this new technology to really inform some dramatic changes. And at the UPU, we are actually very keen on how to expand the understanding of the knowledge that this data collection that Andrea was talking about can really help identify trade flows, identify types of goods that are being imported or exported. And that can help inform policy makers on what are demands, where are opportunities that can help economic growth. And that's for us a very interesting new area of exploring informed policy makers based upon the data that's available within the Postal Network. Franklin, did you want to make a quick comment before we move on to our next topic? Yeah, it's just a quick question, comments on the gathering of data. And curious how we have implemented in 2012 a cash option for the financial inclusion. You could gather a lot of information how many people doesn't have a bank account to buy online and by introducing the cash option, you gather a lot of information about that group of people and to try to find the solution how to include them in the system. The data is very valuable on that side as well. That's the comment I wanted to add on that. And that's a great comment about financial inclusion, because that's a crucial part of the entire e-commerce revolution. And it's not something that's unique to SIDS. I mean, there are European nations where e-commerce development was held back because people didn't have credit cards or didn't trust e-commerce. And that sort of leads nicely into one of the questions that come in from the audience. It's about the strategy or logistics guide for startups and e-commerce innovators. So, talking about the postal network and the telecommunications network as enablers of innovation and commerce, perhaps I'll make it a very general thing. Do you have any tips for how posts can help startups or in their own companies, whether it's an e-commerce startup or whatever, get started and grow? Would anybody like to, Franklin, you've still got your hand up. I believe we mentioned the postal sector to provide a platform for the startups to provide their services through that platform. So, we created back then right to the door. So, any startup, any merchant could have provided their services or their product through that platform. So, postal organization is very well positioned to do that and to help out those startups with their promoting and selling their products as services. Any other comments, Paul? Yeah, I'd just like to extend that and say that we have seen a lot of success in a number of countries around the world where posts can be incubators of startups and help develop local solutions where there's great innovation that comes out of the new digital natives that Sarai was talking about before. They can create amazing relevant local solutions for mobile applications, for payments, for e-commerce, etc. But they lack access to a network to be able to get those applications in use. And that's where there's a beautiful partnership between the postal sector and startups. The posts have a network that reaches everybody in the country, as has been mentioned. And it's actually part of a global network that reaches everybody in the world. We haven't really talked about a lot about that. And startups have solutions that don't have access to networks. So bringing the posts together with startups really does accelerate innovation. And we've seen that in a number of countries around the world where some of the most exciting innovations now are coming out of Nairobi and out of cafes in Nigeria, not out of what we traditionally think of where the big innovation comes from from Silicon Valley or somewhere. And the beautiful thing about being part of an international network that is globally a single territory across the world is that these solutions can be utilised in a collaborative way so that we can start to look at particularly for SIDS. This is a very interesting and relevant point because we can look at affordable access to platforms, secure platforms, as has been mentioned by Rodney and I thank Rodney for pointing out the importance of the DOPOS project. The DOPOS project that the UPU has been developing is looking at how to make access to shared platforms in partnership with startups where startup solutions can actually be deployed across a collaborative platform for a region, for a group of countries where the affordability and economic sustainability of that solution can be much stronger and can help SIDS actually leverage each other to leapfrog as well using the power of startups and the secure environment that POST offers as a shared platform service provider. Sarah, did you want to quickly add something? I think Paul mentioned it but I'll add it into it. With this opportunity with the startups that are working together with existing ones as well as using the POST services as we see it here, we're starting to add from some more perspective this digital economy scenario that gives an opportunity to the communication sector to be innovative to create local platforms or local apps for our local people to engage with and also with the business services sector. So with a lot of data hosted here in the POST sector, they can share across with other sectors so that gives them more opportunities and then this digital economy will come in and thanks Rodney for mentioning the trust issue and he mentioned the POST. It's been introduced here but the emphasis needs to go on further for more awareness of our people so thanks for sharing that. Thank you. Rodney, since everybody seems to be lavishing praise upon you, do you want to add anything? There's a lot of love for you in the chat as well. Everybody says you're speaking sense. Do you want to add anything on any of these topics? I should probably quit while in my head then. But no, I really think that, I mean, I just wanted to touch quickly on the issue of lack of funding and based on my own experience again in Barbados that really there were opportunities for completely new revenue streams for the postal services because what I mentioned when they had our podcast in May was the specific initiative in Barbados to deliver driver's licenses in the pandemic because the offices were closed and for some people that meant if they're not able to get a driver's license they're not able to work because their job involves driving. And so that is one service that took off overnight within a few days. Thousands of applications were submitted and thousands of driver's licenses were delivered. Same and then passports followed quickly after that. Again, the trust in the postal service to deliver my passport are confidential documents, government credentials. So I understand the lack of funds but I think there are definite opportunities for the postal services to add more value and generate more revenue. Unfortunately, or fortunately one of the benefits coming out of the pandemic I think presents real opportunities and maybe why we're even having this discussion today coming out of the pandemic. Thank you. Thank you Rodney. Andrea, I'm going to pose this next question to you but if you can't answer it just tell me and I'll pass it to somebody else but since we've heard with Luke Masters ask the question. Any thoughts on SIDS cooperation with larger training partners or economies? What's the value of the opportunity of the risk? Do you have any sort of any tips to dealing with from a SIDS perspective dealing with some of the larger trading partners? Well, that's if you like relates to the kind of question that you asked me after the presentation. So what's the value of having the, how can we leverage the expertise of biggest partners in for example a regional program and that we are trying to come out with the financial support from the organization that you represent and so on which is the Pesar Plus implementation unit and so I would also like to thank you for this question for this question. Now to answer that I mean if you look at the results of your survey as you have seen there is an issue of funds which obviously is an issue but as many point out maybe in this modern world where you know the biggest multinationalists came out from a garage as micro, small and medium enterprise I think at Apple, Google, Amazon and what you have probably the issue of fund is no longer the most binding if there are good ideas but what is binding instead is definitely the human resources at NOHA and because even those small companies that then become multi-billion empires they are all made by people who have a lot of ideas a lot of experience, a lot of know-hows and a lot of good education and you know probably I would say that cooperation with POS operators from countries that for example have already expertise and experience in these innovative areas that we were talking about is necessary if we want you know to import some of that innovation in countries that if you like the ability to leapfrog but maybe not they don't have the human resources to do so. So that's where I think that really the for example like in our case within regional programs or regional program for the POST office cooperation with POST office from developed countries that are our members you know can allow that kind of really mutually reinforcing benefits which can allow that leapfrogging that we were talking about because if I was thinking you know I was listening carefully to the intervention of all these POST experts and they were mentioning some possible function actually existing functions which in addition to the logistics of the standard job of the POST you know touches upon many of the if you like the key determinants of an enabling environment of e-for e-commerce we were talking about e-payments which is one of the key areas and especially e-payments for those who do not have a bank account which is not just the matter of not having a credit card first in order to have a credit card or a debit card you need a bank account in the Pacific that's the minority of people who want it so unless you start to integrate mobile money solution for example you know into the payment system it is difficult to promote e-commerce. We're talking about incubators that's another key determinants of e-commerce readiness because that after education and incubators produces the skills that are necessary and we have seen from Paul and other participants like in other countries this is working. We're talking about e-commerce platforms in some countries postal services as a platform to sell and buy goods and this is another area which allows a country to become e-commerce ready and finally e-government which you know it's kind of if you like a little bit more distant from e-commerce but still is one of the you know of the main aspect to make a country and that allow you know that public sector part of the e-commerce e-electronic ecosystem to work so unless we partner with actual operators who are able to transfer the expertise to our members in a sustainable way and when I say in a sustainable way it means that they are going to stay because it is their interest. Australia and New Zealand are not going to you know for example go to another continent after the program is finished because they are going to stay there and they have a direct interest you know they have a direct interest for our postal operators to improve because it's also in their own interest to trade with the Pacific and vice versa and so I think these are kind of examples that justify progressive partnership between our members and bigger trading partners. We are almost out of time feels hard to believe we've crammed so much into an hour and a half. I'm sorry to everybody's asked questions but I'll just quickly share a couple of things I've come up in the chat before I go around and ask our panellists for a final 30 second comment. Lindsay Welsh from New Zealand mentioned that EAD electronic advanced data or AED for some others for some reason is powerful and as Paul and Dandere pointed out an important consideration is also data security so data sharing agreements are key to protect sending and receiving posts and the sending and receiving customers too. Thank you Lindsay for your comments. Various comments from Sid Hart at the APP sorry Sid I didn't get time to ask all of your questions and Ditto Richard Wishart I'm sorry I didn't get time to ask your questions and everybody else. I'm now going to go around our panellists and ask for a very quick final comment anything that you think we've missed that we should have mentioned or any particular nuggets or gems that you want to share with the audience. Paul I'll start with you please. Yeah and first of all I think it's been a fabulous discussion I'm really excited by the broad range of topics that we've covered and for me it really validates the approach and direction that we're taking at the UPU about strengthening our focus on SIDS. There's obviously a lot of demand here for development and there's a lot of opportunities as we've covered so the UPU is strengthening its focus on SIDS within our regional development plans. We are excited by partnerships both with organizations like PIFS but also with the private sector about how we can accelerate the digital transformation for SIDS and make access to solutions but also as Franklin mentioned to make sure that policy makers are informed about the opportunities that exist. And how posts can help SIDS develop more rapidly. And then finally picking up on this data privacy and security issue then I just want to reinforce the message that the UPU with our cyber security program. We're really looking at trying to strengthen the cyber protection of SIDS where lack of access to skills and knowledge is a critical issue and cyber attacks can really also have a significant impact. So our dot-post program at the UPU which has been mentioned by a number of people today I would really encourage all SIDS to look at as a tool to help protect their digital infrastructure as they go on this digital transformation journey. Rodney Taylor would you like to share any final comments please. Sure again Paul did a wonderful summary as he did a wonderful introduction so all I'll say is we started our last podcast Ian by talking about cricket off camera and how you know from a small states we dominated the game you know back in the early days. But we didn't invent it but we mastered it and same I think we need not to be dawned. Are we talking about Tasmania or the West Indies here. We're talking about the West Indies here. But you know in the same way we need not be daunted by the issue of digital transformation. Certainly it is an opportunity for us as well to collaborate with our brothers and sisters and smaller other small island developing states. In fact we do have an internet governance forum promoting cooperation between small island developing states as well you can look up for that. Thanks for that opportunity to say that but thanks for a very interesting discussion and I know for first time that there's some real opportunities for postal services and SIDS to help drive digital transformation within our economies. Thank you. Franklin your final comments please. Thank you Ian and thank you for having me and indeed I will echo Rodney and Paul's comments on the conference. My final comment would be I don't know how but I plead that we engage governments in this process that they rather be be protective and invest in subsidizing the growing outdated postal model to invest in the creation of collaboration between postal organization in the region. So and I hope that the postal organization from the SIDS can find a way to collaborate with each other in developing and make use of the digital transformation to help each other move forward. Thank you. Thank you Franklin and Sarai. Some final words for you before you for your head hits the pillow. Thank you for the opportunity Ian and thank you all for this marvelous conversation. My final words are to ensure the necessary ICT infrastructure is in place. Boost the education because the capital is our people it's a human it's human that use this technology and then will improve the business environment modernize the policy and regularity framework and also agree. There are more collaborations between the government and the private sector to push this digital economy to go through. So for SIDS from the Samoa perspective we need more support on meaningful connectivity affordability and digital literacy skills to push this new initiative digital transformation for postal platforms to go further. Thank you. Thank you and under a final words from you please. Thank you for the opportunity to participate and really to learn to learn much more than I knew when I entered this meeting about the real potential of postal operators and postal services for the development of the digital economy even beyond the realm of goods. I think services for the Pacific for example is a great probably is a greater opportunity than goods themselves and you know just I'll just close you to by giving you a start about business processing outsourcing in Fiji in three years time. The forecast is that that sector which is really tiny nobody talk about that it will it will produce 3% of GDP and will employ 12,000 people which is which will make business process outsourcing in Fiji bigger than the fishing industry. Which is something we talk a lot about you know fisheries in the Pacific so just just to think about what digital transformation means. You know I think that's a good example and I really really much welcome you know any contribution that the postal system and postal operator can give to these digital transformation of Pacific economy including through the cooperation that we are framing within. The umbrella of cooperation with the UPU and their postal operators so thank you very much for this opportunity. Well thank you to all our fabulous panelists for your inputs today for your expertise it's been really illuminating. Thank you to Katja at the UPU for all your work behind the scenes. Thank you also to the IT team for making sure the stream went out to the world and that we fixed any bumps in the road along the way. There will be a video replay available of this at some point probably on YouTube. Check the UPU website for more details not just about what we've just been participating in but also the UPU voicemail podcast the dot post initiative that Paul may have mentioned once or twice and various other things. Head on over to the UPU website upu.int there's a link in the chat right now to the UPU website so thank you for taking parts. Thank you for your input your questions and enjoy the rest of your day or if you're in the Pacific and we know there's more than one. Have a good night's sleep. All right goodbye everybody.