 Good day my lovely listeners. You are listening to the 40 Autie Podcast. Tune in every week to explore inspiring stories and insightful information that dive head-first into the world of autism and mental health. With all those tantalizing tongue twisters out of the way, let's get into the show. Hello and welcome back to the Autism Podcast, the 40 Autie Podcast of course. My name is Thomas Hanley and thank you so much for joining me and my lovely guest today to talk about autism and puberty. Yes, it's something that I'm not particularly generally comfortable about talking about and I've already explained to my guest, but I will try my best of course for you listeners out there. Today, I am joined with by Victoria from the actually Aspling Instagram account. How are you doing, Victoria? Yeah, I'm fine. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me on the podcast. No problem. I think this is, as I've said, it's something that sort of kind of makes me a little bit red-faced to talk about but you have had a lot of experience with psychology. So you're a psychology grad student, aren't you? Yes, yeah. And you do you did your project sort of around that kind of issue, so I think it'll be good, a good little conversation to have. Yeah, I'm kind of used to it now. I had to ask people these uncomfortable questions as part of my research. So you kind of get used to it after a while. So would you like to give everybody a little bit of a background into who you are, when you were diagnosed, the kind of things that you enjoy doing in the workplace or not enjoy doing in the workplace? Yeah, so my name's Vicki or Aspling as some people call me. And I was diagnosed when I was 25 and that was in my second year of university, which was kind of weird. I'd always thought I'd been autistic and my mum always kind of thought it as well, but actually finally someone telling you that it makes a huge difference and it made a huge difference in terms of like university support and stuff as well. What do I enjoy in the workplace? I don't really know. What do you do in the workplace? That's a bad question. I don't currently work because I've just finished my master's degree. I volunteer at a psychology service that works with looked after children and adopted children and foster carers and things like that. So I do that at the moment, which is incredible. It's a great place to work. Wow. That's, that's amazing. How is that for you? Like what is the typical typical work day? It's really nice. I only do a couple of days a week at the moment because it's all I can manage, but it's local and the staff are just incredible. They're so understanding and accommodating and they like to use my ideas and we have like really good conversations and meetings and stuff. And it's just, it's a really, really nice place to work. So I just do a lot of admin for them, like typing up documents and helping them with like social media and their YouTube and stuff like that. So generally, I'm either helping with training or I'm in the office on the computer doing stuff that I'm incredibly comfortable with. So it's really, really nice. Really? And do you get, do you get to have sort of like one-to-one or work with the children? Or is it more just working on the social media side of things? It's more admin based at the moment. There are opportunities to help with, like I do training with the parents sometimes, like I sit in and sometimes contribute to that. But at the moment, it is just mostly admin stuff. Very cool. I like that you're having some impact. And is it mostly the the autistic sort of children that you help with? Or is it more based around your degree and stuff? It's not really for autistic children. They do training for kind of complex needs and stuff, but it's mainly looking at children who are in care, who are adopted, those who have emotional trauma, kind of things like that and supporting parents. I'm currently, well, I mean, obviously not currently because we are we are recording this in the midst of an isolation. But my job is sort of like special needs teaching and stuff. So I feel like we've got sort of a little connection there with the working with kids and stuff like that. Yeah, definitely. Do you work with adolescents and stuff? Or is it more like younger kids that the service works with? It varies. They do work with younger children, but they do work with adolescents as well. They have kind of like they had an animation group and they have like music therapy groups and they do circus skills. They do absolutely all sorts and cater for literally everyone. So, yeah, our podcast today is on autism and puberty, of course, as I take a little breath before I say. Um, what was life like for you before puberty? Like what was Vicki before puberty? I honestly can't really remember much from my childhood, apart from what I've been like told from my parents. Um, apparently I was really passive as a child, but because I was actually adopted. So my parents hadn't had any experience of having a child. And they just thought it was normal that I would just sit there and just like not do anything, which is what I do a lot of the time now, actually. But I didn't have very many friends. I had like one friend in primary school. And I spent a lot of my time when I was younger, just staying at home and playing with toys. That's like all I did. But yeah, I honestly, I can't remember much from when I was a child. It's like a blur, really. I empathize with that quite a lot, because I find that I really just don't have a good memory of, I have memory of like key events, but most people have sort of blurred fragmented memories of their life as a child. But it feels like my recall of anything like before secondary school is just gone. It's really, apart from very key life experiences and upsets or happiness or all that. But I do find it hard. I don't know why that is. No, I completely relate to that. It's just like, it's hard to explain. Like you say, there's key things that I can remember, but it's likely don't all, they're not connected in things. And sometimes I find that I recall events and people will say to me, well, it didn't actually happen like that. So it's like I've kind of made it up in my head a little bit. Well, yeah, I mean, I'm reading a book currently, which is, I can't remember the name. It's about the self. And it's basically like a mix between philosophy and psychology and stuff. And they did say that the memories are actually very flexible. So they can be, it's not like the setting stone in your brain. It's every time that you recall a memory, your brain tries to pull it together from your experiences. And every time that you do that, it gets a little bit more untrue, if that makes sense, less reliable. That's really interesting. And that obviously causes a little bit of anxiety in me. It's like, well, what am I supposed to do? I'm going to have to write down everything, everything in my life. I don't know. In terms of like your personality, were you very sociable at school? Or did you obviously said that you were a bit sort of reclusive? Is that the right word? Yeah, I was, I wouldn't say introverted. I'm so different now. When I was a child, I had a great imagination and I used to play with my toys at home and line them up and pretend to be a teacher. But when it came to actually being in school and socializing with my peers, I found that incredibly difficult. My mum said that when I was really young in primary school, I used to walk around the edge of the playground on my own and just kind of watch people, because I didn't feel like I could kind of place myself into the environment, into the situation and kind of interact with people. Yeah, that is very interesting, because my mum's also told me about what I was like when she'd take me to new events and stuff. So she told me one day where she taught me to play football and I'd stand at the side watching the other kids for about an hour before I joined in. Do you think that's due to autism in some respects? Because I feel like obviously understanding social interactions and people is generally a little bit harder, and especially in childhood. So maybe our sitting at the side and observing people was trying to understand them and make sure that they're not going to attack us or something. I think so, it's kind of standing back and analysing the situation. For me, I wouldn't know how to go and join in, I wouldn't know what to say, or if it was appropriate, like what's appropriate to say. So I'd just sit back and think, oh well, let's analyse the situation first and listen to what they're talking about, kind of thing and then go in and see. Yeah, it's definitely more of like a methodical kind of approaching like a group of chimpanzees kind of thing. It's deciding whether you want to go ahead and you don't want to make a fool of yourself. So it's like, do you go in straight away or do you just run away? And I've seen a lot online lately about people saying if you've got anxiety, the best thing to do is tackle it head on and don't avoid situations. But I'm all for avoiding situations because I don't really care. I'd rather stay at home and avoid something than have to deal with the anxiety. Fair enough. I think there is, for me, there's always been an element of sort of graded exposure, like trying to ease myself into it rather than plunge myself into the deep end. And I think over the past two, three years, I've been sort of, I went through this little transformation of writing about my experiences, where I'm writing about what I think about interactions that I've had and people and how people work and stuff. And there's been very much like a scientific degree-like aspect to me getting into the social world. But yeah, I think in terms of myself at childhood, I was, it's very strange, the contrast between myself younger and in secondary school because I was always extremely hyperactive. Obviously, I lacked the inherent sort of understanding of other people's experiences and stuff and emotions that I have and other people have. But I was very giddy. I was always smiling. I would always, I would approach people, especially adults and sort of be smiling, try to have conversations with them and stuff. So I was always like, I was a very extroverted kid. And I did have, you know, particular friends that I went to that I was comfortable with most of the time. But I did, at that age, try to make a lot of effort in terms of socializing and stuff like that. And I think that's partly due to my mum as well because she's just an amazing human being and she's supported me a lot with it. Mums are, mums generally are amazing. Yeah, definitely. I don't think I'd be the person I am today if it wasn't for her and she's brilliant. I love her. She's currently got like a really high job in the sort of special needs sector. She is like the managing, I don't know, I can't remember the official name, but she basically manages like a massive part of special education for sort of like Middlesbrough area. Oh, wow. She's recently stepped up to that job and she obviously, I live in Harrogate, which is sort of a place in North Yorkshire. And her house is obviously in North Yorkshire, so she's currently staying at her girlfriend's. She's away from home, which is quite hard, but she's doing well and she's a stressful job, obviously. Yeah, she sounds amazing though. She's lovely. She actually quit her previous job because of there was a particular incident with sort of like parents of a child that she was working with that fought to bring in sort of like an outsourced way of teaching and working with autistic children and it went completely against her morals. Yeah, I understand that. So she actually quit her job and it was, you know, it was quite a high up job at the time as well, but she decided to quit it and, you know, she's just, she's an amazing person. It's nice in a way to kind of hear that not that she quit her job, but the fact that she didn't agree with something, she felt strong enough to say, no, I don't agree with that, I'm going to quit. We don't have enough of that. No, definitely. Honestly, I don't know what I'd do if I was in her shoes, but I do idolize her a lot. She's a lovely, amazing person. She has the interest of everybody before herself, so she's beautiful human being. That's really nice. Cool, so we talked a little bit about life before puberty. When did you start noticing changes in yourself? Like what were the main ones and how did they affect your life? I'd say in primary school, like physical changes. For example, my height, I was always quite tall and it was like a cycle. I was really clumsy, so I'd always fall over. And then I'd get really bad leg pains, so it's like growing pains. And then a couple of days later, I'd grow a bit, like I'd be taller. And that kind of happened every couple of months, so that really stood out because it was really painful. And I didn't understand it when I was a child. I'd also say when I first got my period as well was a big change, but that was in secondary school. And that was really confusing. And it still kind of confuses me a bit. And there's loads of sensory issues with that and anxiety and stuff. But I'd say they were the main things that I noticed. Yeah, so I imagine that obviously the female sanitary products weren't particularly comfortable. No, oh no. Did you have many sensory issues with them? Yes, oh god, my mum. Seriously, I used to frustrate the hell out of her because I'd go to the toilet every half hour and I'd just say to my mum, I can't do it. I can't do it. It's not right. It's uncomfortable. And I'd end up breaking down in the toilets in a public place. And she'd get so embarrassed and she'd hate me for it. But I always used to just remember they were just awful, absolutely awful. I obviously don't have much experience of that kind of thing. I think most of the changes in me with which I can sort of empathise with the growing pains are quite and quite tall as well. So it was definitely not a very comfortable experience. Other than that, I think, you know, acne and the emotions, the emotions were the big thing for me that affected my life from puberty. Something else that is also in the book that I'm reading at the moment was says that when we are in adolescence, a part of our prefrontal cortex, which is sort of implicated in how other people perceive us is like hyperactive. So they become extremely self-conscious about everything. Yeah. Oh, God, yeah. Definitely. I can relate to that. It's like when you go into high school, suddenly everything changes. And you're so aware of everything and everyone around you. And it's just like, I'm paranoid anyway, but I always thought that, oh, my God, they're staring at me. And oh, my God, they're just like so paranoid. You feel like you're always at the centre of attention and everyone's always judging you all the time. Yeah, I understand that. Definitely. My mum always had to say to me, you're staring at people. And it's like, I'm staring at them because they're staring at me. And it's like, no, they're not staring at you. You just think they are. I do get that quite a bit. Sometimes I get it when I'm particularly anxious in sort of day to day anyway. I think, yeah, also another thing I think that there was a big change for me was the voice, of course. The voice breaking. My voice started breaking a little bit before everybody else. I think most people's voice broke about a year later. So my mum was quite early. And I remember my... I used to, me and my brother used to love making these like really high-pitched noises all the time. And I remember at one point the realisation came that I couldn't do all these like upper-style symphonies with my brother. Now I couldn't use my voice to that. People as well, they like to... If you develop quicker than them or before, then they like to point it out as well. And it's like, yeah, I'm aware of that, thanks. I don't need you to point it out for me. Yeah, definitely. And, you know, all of the other physical characteristics of being a guy in terms of like facial hair and stuff. I didn't really get much of that, but I just used to grow really big sideburns. And that was obviously not fun. I didn't grow any hair like in any of the good places. It just went under my chin and round the sides of my face. But that was horrible as well. I couldn't handle the itchiness all the time, because it was kind of at that length when I was at that age that it was too itchy. I can imagine. And was it being on your face as well? Yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't mind that. How did the... Were there any sort of other emotional changes that occurred when you started to go through puberty? I just, I'm a very emotional person anyway, but I think things got a lot worse, especially in high school, because I felt so different to everyone else. And I was the weirdo in my class who didn't know how to respond to people, who didn't know how to socialize. And that hit me really hard. It really did. I'd come home and I'd just like explode, because all this emotion, all this emotion just like built up and built up. And then it just kind of, it just, it was really hard, really hard. When I, when I started to go through, you know, a sort of secondary school, you know, year, year, eight, year, nine, year, 10, that's when... I think, I think to be honest, the most of the emotional issues that I had at the time was due to other people. Right? Other people were already quite hard to understand and work around and socialize with, but when they hit sort of that year, nine, year, 10 kind of age. Ah, it's like, I described it before as, as, you know, once on a holiday, everyone in the school got together and decided these strange social rules and ways of behaving. And did not invite me and then came back and implemented that into, into school. That is, that, that is how it feels. Yeah. It really is just absolutely, it is crazy, just, just how much people change and I struggled massively with that, especially with the more, more of the kids that caused a lot of friction. In terms of like bullies and all that, and it got a little bit more complicated and, and difficult and, yeah. I understand that. I was bullied quite a bit in high school and I could never understand why, because back when I was in high school, everybody had MSN Messenger, right? And I didn't have it. So I came into, I'd come into school the next day and to find out that people had been talking about me or Messenger. And I was like, one, I don't know what Messenger is and two, I just don't understand. But I think I was just misunderstood because people didn't understand me and they didn't make an effort to either. It was just a case of, oh, well, you're weird. You don't fit in. You're not like the rest of us. We're not going to bother. We'll just like call your names instead. You need to try and fit in with us because, because this is the norm. That's it. And that's why I think now, as an adult, I kind of hide things a lot better because you kind of have to when you're in high school. Yes, definitely. I think high school is, it was, it was absolutely horrible for me. It was, it was really difficult. I developed a lot of mental health issues during my time at there. I developed a lot of like dissociation type disorders because of not being able to know how to cope with the stress of people. So the way that I cope with it was out sort of, which I guess is where I can sort of talk about the contrast between how I was in secondary school. I think I became a lot more secluded. I didn't talk much. I had minimal conversational skills, mostly because I didn't understand and it was, I tended more to just stay quiet and dissociate rather than interact, especially when there was a lot of emotions and confrontation involved. That's it. And you've got the social dynamics that are always changing. And then you've got all the like school work on top of that. Yep. So there's a lot to kind of contend with. Definitely. And I do think learning to sort of adapt to a neurotypical society is basically like having another degree. It requires that much effort that is ridiculous. And it kind of, it becomes normal as well. You shouldn't have to kind of hide or try and fit in. But when you're in high school, it's like you do it to survive. Yeah, you do it so that you're not ridiculed and picked on every day and isolated from your peers. Yeah, definitely. High school was particularly difficult for me. So did you, this brings us nicely onto the next question. Did you notice any differences in others around you at school? Like, do you think that your experience of puberty was different to other peoples? Um, I'd say yes. But from the research I've done now, I think we all go through puberty and it's not nice for anyone. But I think being autistic, there are added kind of dimensions to that. There's added kind of like sensory issues and there's communication difference. And there's all these other things that I kind of built on. It makes it so much worse. And people don't realise that. Because I think all my friends, all the people that I hung around with, kind of developed like physically way faster than I did. And I didn't understand that. All my friends had like boobs and I was just like, they're like, I don't have any, I don't have any of this. And I didn't wear a bra for ages and because I didn't need to. But it was one of those things. Socially, that wasn't acceptable. And there was so much peer pressure to develop quicker, which is crazy. And I'd just be like, I'd be like staring at them like, it's like, I don't have that. And it's like, oh, well, you're weird. You're not like us. You can't join in our conversations anymore. Because we're going to talk about all these things that you don't know about kind of thing. So it's kind of like being isolated from everyone else. Another aspect of isolation. Yeah. Did you find that your sensory difficulties became more... Like what kind of sensory difficulties do you have now, just as a little bit of a baseline? I don't like bright lights and like, like certain lighting and stuff, because I've got epilepsy as well. So that triggers that. I'm really sensitive to certain noises and smells. But the main thing is like touch. I'm really, really sensitive to touch. Because people will kind of like give me hugs or like touch me and it goes through me. My husband always says to me, it's like, it's not actually painful. It's more of a discomfort. But to me, it's pain. I'm so sensitive to things like that. Especially like light touches. Yeah. I'm like, oh my God, that really hurt. And it's like, it's just because I'm so sensitive to it. And I'm more aware of that now as an adult than I was when I was younger. I'd noticed all these things and I was aware of them, but I never really knew that's what it was. And how did your, did the puberty sort of affect those aspects of sensitivity and all that? It made it worse, I'd say. Especially like with like my physical development and stuff, because I had like the growing pains. And I was so aware of everything that was going on. I didn't understand it, but I could feel it. And I was so sensitive to that, it was a nightmare. Yeah. I don't think that my sensory stuff changed. I think it was just, obviously the high, the secondary school environment is a little bit more noisy and boisterous and in your face that as compared to like primary school. So I think that aspect of school was difficult for me. I used to, I used to have this place called the bridge, which is basically like the sort of support place of the school. I was allowed to sort of go in and sit in the corridor in there during the busy times. So like after lessons or before lessons. So I could sort of cope with my emotional issues a bit easier. See, I didn't have any of that because I didn't have like a label or anything. I wasn't allowed to do anything like that. And it would have helped massively, I think. Just those little things. Yeah. I can imagine. It is really tough because most of the people that come onto this podcast do say that they sort of get diagnosed a lot later in life. And I think if people are more aware of autism and had had an idea of the kind of traits, then they would sort of go for diagnosis earlier in life because I feel like having just that level of understanding from the teachers and the people around you and the parents and stuff makes life just a little bit more easy. It really does because I've noticed the difference. Being in university, one of my lecturers, he specialises in autism and it's what he's like known for. And what I first told him, I think I'm autistic and he said, yeah. And since diagnosis, just having help and having someone who understands is really nice because I had an incident in secondary school with my coursework and I took options and classes that I thought I'd enjoy. And one of my teachers took me to one side and said to me, look, I don't think you're going to pass. And I was like, right, okay. And then she's like, do you want me to phone your parents and tell them for you? And I was like, no, I really don't. But thanks for telling me I'm going to fail. And I was just like, if I'd have known earlier and if I'd have actually got the support that I'd needed and there was that level of understanding like I have now, it would have made all the difference. Because it's not even just like, as we've talked about the mental health systems around awesome. It's also the teaching, we learn in such a different way. And the classes where I had teachers who were very attentive to my different style of learning, those are the classes that I did really, really well in and the classes that I had no help I did. That's absolutely terrible. You really notice the difference, don't you? And I found mostly through A-Levels that the classes where the teachers didn't really get on my wavelength, that I just went through the textbooks. I just learned from the textbooks. They told us what the lesson was about. I showed that I was listening and then I just read the textbook because obviously it does make a massive difference depending on the teaching style. That's it. I had one subject and I had two teachers that were so different. There was one who was like amazing and he really understood me and he saw my potential and he helped me develop and do really well. But same subject, different teacher would go to the class and she's just like, yeah, I'm going to take my shoes off and go and sit in the office and drink a cup of coffee, do what you want. It's just so different that the teaching styles, it was one class but two different approaches and results-wise having that more supported approach and the teacher, I did so much better. Even though it was kind of one class and you got the same mark, it was just kind of a different way of going about it. Yeah. There is a very vivid memory in my head where I had this maths teacher. I was in- we sort of had sets. Do you have sets in my- Oh, I was bottom set for maths. Oh, yeah. Well, I was in set two which is one up from one below the high achieving kind of people. Okay, yeah. And I had this teacher who was very sort of old school kind of style of teaching. You can't say anything in class or you're in trouble. And it was not a nice chat towards me. He didn't particularly understand and there was many incidences where he said, okay, right, well, if you've finished your work, you can talk. And so I just obviously hear that and just be like, okay, right, I'm going to do it as quick as possible. And I do all the work, start talking. You get annoyed at me. I'd say that I've done my work and then he'd ask me the questions and then tell him. But then for some reason, because obviously, he was so rigid and which is kind of quite funny, isn't it? He's so rigid and unmoving in his teaching style. He moved me down a set. Oh, wow. So the best achievers in that set that I was in would get like A's and stuff if, you know, if they're lucky, maybe like most of them got like a B. And I was moved down a set into another class, which was a lot different, a lot more relaxed, a lot more of, you know, just go about your work, chat to each other, try and work through it. Teachers going to come round and help you out and stuff. And the teacher that I had there was amazing and supportive and really nice guy. So I did the exams, of course, and I came out of an A in maths. Wow. And obviously, the set that I was in, it was more C to B range. And so I remember going to the office to collect my results. And knowing that I've done well, because the teacher had obviously approached me and said, you've done really well, Tom. And I went and that teacher in the highest set was there as well. So I was just like, you know, we did exchange many ways. He just said, oh, well done, Tom. I was like, thank you very much. And a smile on my face, walked out. And I was just like, yeah, rubbing it in a little bit. Take that. You think I'm an idiot. That's it though, they do though. I had so many different maths teachers and all of them, they couldn't control the class and everyone misbehaved. I remember once, me and my friend were just like messing. And I remember hitting her over the head with a maths textbook, because I thought that people would like me if I kind of joined in. And then I got sent out of the classroom. And then I felt like really bad, but it's like, I never learned anything in maths anywhere. And it took me seven attempts to actually get my GCSE in maths. But I think if I'd have had a teacher that actually cared, it would have been a lot different. Definitely. Yeah. And I did my, I did statistics as well, because people from set three to set three above had to do statistics as well as GCSE. And I had a different teacher for that. And I didn't do as well in stats. I don't get stats. Stats are horrible. I hate them so much. I have to do them now. And I just don't understand it. Yeah, screw the sort of stereotypical autism kind of view. I know, I know. I can't do maths. I can't do maths. No. I did A level AS maths. I didn't do as well. I didn't do as well. I didn't like. Actually, quite a few people I know who got like A's in maths who are really good at maths, they took A level maths and did really poorly. There's something about A level maths that just, it just kind of changes. And yeah, there's, and I think honestly, a part of that is just that didn't find it enjoyable. Like it was just, it was too, it was too, too complex to communicate in general for people in the class. But then obviously, my mind works differently. So communicating that to me is even more sort of fragmented and difficult. And I couldn't go with it. It was, it was hard. I dropped that, obviously. I don't get how people enjoy maths. I have, I have a cousin who did her PhD in maths. And she wrote a massive book all about maths things. And I just don't understand how it's enjoyable. No, I like the concepts and the ideas of how they arrive to a certain formula and stuff. I think that interests me. But the actual act of doing the maths is, it's, I just, I just don't see the point. There's no like, I know, I know there is a point to it. And it's developing your ability to use that in a practical setting. But there is such a gap between learning about it and using it, even like a uni. It's like algebra. I've not used it since. And when I go to the shop, I normally pay with like a debit card or something. So I don't have to like do maths. And they have the scanners you shop things. So it adds it all up for you anyway. Exactly. I think with maths as well. And we have our phones as well. That's it. I think people expect, like with maths, a quick answer straight away. But I find that I need a lot of time to kind of process what they've asked before. I can then actually try and figure it out. And you don't get that a lot of the time. Yeah. My maths grades were good, but my mental maths ability is not very good at all. Like even times tables and stuff. Sometimes I must do work on times tables with kids at school. And a lot of the time they're better than me at it. Not going to lie. Just going to fall out there. Sometimes they are better than me on the spot kind of mental maths. I can't do it. Just doesn't work in my brain. I remember in primary school I had a teacher and we had like a maths class. And we had like a sheet of times tables and we had a minute to like fill them in like as fast as we could. And I was just like sat there like working it out like really slowly because like I just couldn't do it. And you're expected to just kind of do it as fast as possible. And it's like my brain won't let me. Time pressure. Yeah. Time pressure makes a difference. So in terms of like the differences in others at school like I think the whole dynamic in terms of relationships and you know sexual nature kind of things. Did you see any like changes in other people around you or have any changes in yourself about that kind of thing? I did. I was like so out of the loop with things like that because all my friends came in with like hair straighteners and bags of makeup and they were like I did this on the weekend. I made out with this guy and then there's me like I stayed home and played with my Barbie dolls this weekend. Very bad Pokemon. Pokemon yellow. But that's it. And I remember once like I invited this friend home for tea and I remember being there and I got my Barbie dolls out and this friend weirdly actually sat and played Barbies with me for like two hours and I thought it was great. But then the next day in school she went and told everyone. Yeah. And that was like it. I was just like. It's horrible that isn't it? It was absolutely it was really horrible because there's me thinking oh someone else likes Barbies as well and it's like no that's not actually age appropriate but I didn't understand that at all. And girls at that age are really really bitchy and horrible. Like and I didn't understand that at all. And I had friends who were like they could go from group to group and just fit in naturally. And I was like on the edge just kind of watching and that made me more of a target I think. Yeah. I understand that. I think that there is you know sort of some aspect of social norms weaving themselves into into life like at that age. I remember a lot of my sort of good friends generally started to start to move away started to adapt more of those social norms and I lost a lot of a lot of good close friends that I spent a lot of time with just because I wanted to play something or do something that we did enjoy. But because of these social norms they don't want to do it anymore and now I'm a weirdo they don't want to associate it with me. I understand that completely. So it's so hard because I had friends who are like do you want to come out and get drunk on the weekend? At what age? About like 12, 13. Oh no way. Like in year seven, year eight. And I was like yeah okay and we'd go out and there'd be random lads just turn up and I'm like what the hell is this? And I was like no I'm going home. At one point I was like my dad's coming to pick me up. I'm going home. I'm not sitting smoking weed with you getting drunk. And that became like the normal for everyone. That became like the normal for everyone and I was like no. Geez. And everyone found it kind of strange that I stayed at home on the weekends. All right makes complete sense to me. It's like they were like you're boring why don't you come out with us? Why don't you take legal drugs and illegal drugs? It's like no thank you. And again I was I was weird because of that and everyone's like well you're not normal. We don't want to associate with you if you're not going to join in with what we want to do. You can't just you can't just be friends with them and not join in on some things that they do. You have to do everything. You have to agree with everything in order to. Yeah that's difficult. I had friends as well who'd come to my house. Well I had an incident where like a friend came to my house and she said this was like year nine in high school. She's like we've just got caught stealing from Primark and I'm like well why have you come to my house? Can we hide out here? No. Go away. So I just I I told them to go home. I was like no. If you want to do that with your little group of friends do it but don't don't bring me into it. Geez it's like you must have grown up in a crazy school or year. I didn't like my year to be honest. I was the youngest in my class and I felt like I was the youngest. I kind of knew I was aware of that so I didn't fit in with the rest of the year group and that was difficult. Did you sort of develop any sort of romantic feelings at that age? So now in terms of myself I was it's not something that I like to talk about but I was very much like sexually active at that age. Not sexually active but you know having those thoughts a lot and I don't think that's something that's typically confined to me but no. It was very strange. So you know I didn't have that. I had no interest in sexual relations or having a boyfriend or anything like that until I was like 17. Whereas all my friends did and they were like oh we found this guy that you might like and I'm like I'm not interested and of course I got bullied for that as well. It's like well I just don't have any interest. Yeah and that's that's fair enough like it's I think it's a good idea to to not get into that too early especially like the age of like 12 and stuff like yeah but it was it did and I was I was very fixed in terms of myself I was very fixated on sort of getting a girlfriend and the whole romantic love kind of you know stories watching movies about it and I suppose in some ways I was quite different to a lot of the guys because I was most most of my friends in secondary school were were like girls and stuff so most of my social understanding and interactions were with girls and not not with guys and I think at that age there is a large sort of social dynamic difference that I saw so I was I was very caught up in the whole romantic aspect of it all and wanted a girlfriend and it was very difficult though because obviously I didn't have much of an understanding of people and my emotions and stuff so it was yeah it's hard to understand it's like it's like a script that you kind of have to follow and at like certain ages it's like right at this age you will do this and then when you're in high school you will have a boyfriend or girlfriend you will do this it's like you have to follow this certain path and if you like deviate from it at all then it's hard to survive it's like you socially you have to do these things if that makes sense yeah I don't I don't think any most of it was due to like social pressure I think it was mostly my my desire for it because obviously like it's hard to emotionally connect with people being being autistic and especially at that age so the the idea of you know the movies and stuff where there's there's someone who cares about you and wants to talk about you and do things with you that was very attractive for me so I always sort of try to seek that out in a way to have an an anchor you know on all the craziness of friendships and and all that and I understand I understand that completely now that I'm like married and I have that it's it's nice um but when I was a teenager that didn't interest me at all yeah and I suppose that there will be differences I guess for everybody why based on my genetics and stuff I think it's not always going to be the same for every every person going through puberty but also every autistic person and that there will be some similarities I suppose but obviously differences as well I guess so did your did the obviously we talked a little bit about the dynamics at school and stuff but were there any sort of could you could you give us a bit more of an information about like an information could you give us some more information about the sort of like the group dynamics and and how you how it changed and and how you sort of fit in and who you talk to and what things helped and all that I didn't fit in well I tried to fit in I think I had a group of friends in primary school who I wouldn't say accepted me but we just we kind of got on and we classed each other as friends but then when you go to high school um and you're going through a puberty everything changes because we were split up um so I was only left with like one friend from that group yeah and she was a people pleaser and she was like a social butterfly and she got on with everyone and I just kind of clung onto her and kind of I copied exactly what she did kind of hoping that it helped me to understand yeah kind of the conversations and things like that but even then I still didn't understand and it took me a long time to process things and I couldn't even I didn't feel like I could talk to my friend about it either because we were so different and she didn't understand me very well um it was really it was really difficult because things changed dramatically because everyone you kind of growing up and like I said earlier I wasn't as like developed physically as they were so I didn't understand the the conversations they were having and I didn't feel like part of it and when people made jokes and things I kind of thought well I took things literally and I didn't think that they were funny so I'd point out like you know that's not funny and they'd just be like oh shut up you don't know anything anyway and it was just it was really difficult because then that took a toll on me emotionally because I found it it was just hard because there was times where I didn't want to go into school because I found it's so difficult I didn't understand what was going on in class I didn't understand my friends I was being bullied so I'd just spend a lot of time at home crying because it's all I knew how to do at that point and then eventually my mum was like okay well you can have the day off which every now and then I've learnt now that I need that because it becomes too much yeah I feel that a lot I think it's yeah like at school though did you what did you typically do like during the breaks and the lunch and stuff did you interact with people or did you like myself like I used to go to the library and sort of go on the computers and there was some people that liked to go on the computers as well and I sort of chatted to them loosely while doing doing other stuff what did you do I didn't feel comfortable being on my own because I felt like I was so paranoid that people were like staring at me and stuff I stayed with a group of friends when I got into year nine and ten I made friends with a group of people that I don't know how to say this nicely um they were looked down upon they weren't popular they were kind of like yeah they were like me and I felt like at home with them so we used to stand in a corridor me too just like standing in a corridor just like I don't know why that is really strange they'd all be there stood there saying like oh my god there's that guy that I like he's walking past oh my god oh my god look he's just walked past and I'm just stood there like staring out the window not even not realizing what's going on I'm just stood with them because I don't want to be on my own yeah pretty much there was there was sort of a I had a similar thing where it was I was with a group but yeah there was sort of a little bit looked down upon by the rest of the school it's about us but we're sort of like the weird group of people of course and then there was a lot of strange dynamics between people in that group because it was quite big and it sort of fluctuated in the amount of people in it but that is strange and we used to we used to stay on this the signs corridor so it was yeah that is that is really strange that is strange it's just just something about standing in a corridor I mean sometimes I mean it was sort of like on the border of going on the outside because it was sort of like this little area which sort of split up the different faculties and stuff the different buildings that's really strange because the corridor we used to stand in it was like it was kind of outdoorsy like a little outdoor passage that led from one subject to another to another block yeah and I don't know I don't know why we stood there I don't get the appeal now it was horrible and dirty and it smelled funny but I guess I just wanted to fit in so I just I just stood there just out of it yeah there was something that I wanted to to say but I can't particularly remember what it was it's lost me no it'll come back eventually yeah it will do but um I want to um oh yeah I remember what I was gonna say um when I was sort of at school I did have that like science corridor sort of uh group of friends but I was I was like this weird sort of social drifter so I had friends that I considered to be the closest um who were in different groups so I would um if I felt like one group was getting too much for me and I felt a little bit friction then I would move to another friend that I thought I was good friends with and joined their group and that was basically how I how I worked I had maybe like four or five different good people who I considered to be good friends and I would go in and know I would join those them groups but obviously um that's not how life works at that age and I thought it was just you went around and you talked to have whoever you wanted to talk about talk to and that was how I thought life would be because it sounds logical doesn't it just you just talk to every whoever you want um well obviously the the whole group dynamics thing that was going on in in school I wasn't aware that I was not welcome in a group maybe there was one person that that one person that I liked and maybe a couple of others who sort of liked me a little bit but because I wasn't liked by the group as a entity then it was it was difficult so I was left out on a lot of things so like because I wasn't with them all the time or because I didn't want to talk to other members of the group in particular then when they organised things in in different groups I was left out and I was just left to sort of you know not be a part of that group and that was that was quite difficult for me I think that was a one of the main things that I struggled with because it's not nice to be left out of things that you especially when there's someone that you're good friends with you feel like the sort of going behind your back and not caring about you right that's it I had like I said this friend that I like followed around and she was she was the same she was in so many different kind of social groups and I would follow her and go to these little groups and she'd be like talking to them and it'd be great for her and they'd all look at me as if to be like well yeah your friends with her but you're not welcoming our group yeah and then she'd go from different group to group and I'd follow her and it'd be like the same thing and that is a difficult part isn't it because it's like yeah it is something that I think changes as you get older though like people are more readily willing to talk to people who are not part of your group yeah unless they are in particular quite a tightly knit sort of close group can be quite difficult some points but at least they're quite reciprocative to you wanting to be a part of that group when you're when you're a bit older that makes all the difference it does and I always felt very comfortable talking to teachers and parents and older people because I always felt like my communication style and and how I viewed the world was you know it was I felt like on a different level I felt like I was more in tune to the adult world rather than this crazy teenage you know pubescent kind of emotional melting pot that makes no sense at all I was the complete opposite because I was still kind of playing with like toys and I was a lot you I act a lot younger than I actually am I felt much more comfortable with people that were like two three years younger than me because they were on my wavelength and we kind of like the same things and I found it's so much easier yeah and there was like no pressure I could just kind of like carry on being myself with with you know people that were younger because I could still sit and play with my toys because that's what they'd be doing as well yeah I do I do feel like as I got into sort of second school I sort of succumbed to the social pressure of liking certain things and doing certain things and I did sort of push aside some of the things that I used to like you know because obviously the friends that sort of left my life because of the things that I liked I sort of got rid of those things and but I can see why you would gravitate towards towards people that like the same things as you I think that's what a lot of people like and want to do in my in my eyes like I don't think age is like such a massive difference I think if someone likes the same thing that you like and you get on you can just be friends with them whether they're you know 20 or whether 30 or 40 or 50 you know that's it if you like similar things and you can interact then it's it's all right and that's it I think as I've grown older it's it's easier I find it easier to make friends because when I was in high school like I liked Pokemon and I dressed weird and I liked like heavy metal music and I hid it so much but now I'm just like I'm welcomed I'm liked for all this stuff that when I was a teenager would have got me bullied like people are more receptive yeah and you get to choose who you're around don't you and it turns out a lot of people actually like the same sort of stuff so it's like it's great yeah and yeah I think I think you do get you do get to choose as well in adulthood you don't have to be around the people that you know a satin stoner or who are around you all the time at school you don't really have a choice you just have your pick from those people but when you're an adult it's more you can pick and choose if you don't like someone then you don't have to be friends with them you can just do something else and yeah there's more freedom that's that's really funny that you mentioned because I also really like Pokemon or at least I used to play Pokemon a lot and I also dressed quite strange I was very much in sort of like an emo type kid same yeah and I also listened to metal and and all that stuff so yeah we probably had very similar in childhoods in some cases I always like talk to people like online and stuff who have the same well have the same interests and I was like I wish I knew you in high school there's all these people that I wish I knew because it would have been so much easier definitely just having an awareness of autism in general as a as a society I feel like that if if people are more willing to tell people that they're autistic and more sort of comfortable with telling people that then maybe like people who are autistic could sort of band together and sort of help each other out and stuff and maybe people have a bit more understanding of what it is that young age would be helpful yeah I think so definitely I think that's one of the main one of the main things that I feel like needs needs to change there needs to be an awareness of autism just at a young age and helping children to understand the differences in order to you know because like when you're autistic you have to learn to fit in with other people and that is a very tough and grueling and long process and it has to be done all from you like yeah but even just like a tiny little bit the other way tiny bit of understanding the other way even if it's just like a few classes on it every year or something in primary school or secondary school that would make all the difference like I think so rather than people just saying oh you're weird it's like they'd be more understanding and they'd be more accepting I think as well definitely if it's seen as more of a normal thing which is it is a normal thing there is in every school there is likely to be at least a few if not more autistic people like I think it is it is important that that we have that sort of education and understanding at a young age because that could avoid all of the social isolation and alienation and bullying and mental health because of those experiences and stuff and I think it all sort of ties in together doesn't it it's like a yeah a problem that that needs to be overcome I think that's essential it's just kind of a lot of like people I know have tried to like do training in schools and stuff but a lot of the time it's it's difficult because you want to do all this stuff but the schools aren't always receptive and sometimes the kids don't want to listen but I definitely yeah I definitely think it is needed it needs to be some way of working around it I'm sure we will get there at some point but you know we just need to keep on making people oh I just saw a rat I'm sort of sat next to my computer because I don't want to have the wearing of the computer in the mic but so I'm just sat opposite a window and and uh there's sort of like a row of houses and a rat just crawled out of the hedge and just walked across some like doorstep that's so weird wow interesting little side note there yeah so you told me that you were diagnosed at 25 of course and you know looking back on your life post diagnosis how did that that knowledge of being autistic influence how you view and reconcile with the negative and positive experiences that you've had at school and in life and relationships and stuff I think looking back my childhood what I can remember from it makes so much sense now um it would have been nice to kind of have the diagnosis younger because that would have kind of helped I would have been able to like avoid certain situations I would have had more understanding um it kind of explained why I acted the way I did and why I found like social interaction and understanding my emotions so difficult I think now it's been hang on three three years I'm trying to figure out how old I am um it's been a couple of years and I've now I'm able to look back at the past and think well okay that is why that happened and I'm kind of I'm at peace with it now with everything that's happened I understand it more so I'm able to kind of say well that happened and kind of move on from it and it was kind of like self-discovery in a way because it kind of gave me I had time to kind of process everything and and realize like who I actually am into it and that when I was like in high school and when I went through puberty that wasn't actually me like the real me it was someone that I kind of portrayed for everyone else kind of like a show I'm kind of fitting yeah and I'm so much happier now because when things happen or I do things I'm thinking yeah I know why I do that that that makes a lot of sense um and I have more understanding and the people around me are more understanding as well which is really nice and I'm able to kind of confidently go to people and say yeah I'm autistic you know this is what I need from you and kind of being able to kind of like in the workplace or at university kind of get that and for them to understand it's amazing I definitely empathize with a lot of that I think one of one of the amazing things about having a sort of a solid understanding that you that you are different allows you to sort of look at the problems and the miscommunications that you've had in the past as more of a just miscommunication on both parts rather than all your fault and it allows you to sort of view it as how it is rather than view it as you know negatively towards yourself I think it's been more kind to yourself that's it because in high school I always thought everything was it was all my fault I was acting this way and it was all my fault I dressed this way and it's like I blamed myself a lot and I've kind of I'm able to like reflect and have some like clarity on that and think well actually no it wasn't all my fault there was like a mixture of different things that kind of made things turn out the way they were but I'm kind of like I say I'm at peace with that now and I probably wouldn't change it because it's made me who I am today and yeah I get that a lot I feel a lot of what you're saying cool so I think if we've got through a lot of the questions that I wanted to to go through now comes the memory test which three things that we've mentioned do you think are most important to take away what messages do you want people to remember see I can't remember what we've talked about but I did write things down for this so I'm prepared and it kind of like it'll it'll work I think that because I masked so much I think not masking and not hiding and not feeling pressured to like act a certain way just because everyone else is at that age don't feel like you have to just like I know it's really difficult for me to say that um because when you're going through it it's it's a completely different thing and it's really difficult but kind of like not hiding and being like your true self is really important and not worrying that everyone else is like developing faster than you are because that was something that I got really like upset and anxious about and just kind of knowing that everyone develops like at their own rate and don't like don't be ashamed of that just kind of like embrace it and like don't be worried to talk to people because I had friends but I didn't feel like I could talk to them and I was so like socially awkward I wouldn't talk to my parents or anyone so it's just like knowing that people do actually care and people will talk to you if you like talk to them and don't kind of feel like worried to do it it's like it's really hard in high school but like looking back I like regret a lot of stuff like for not talking to people and blaming myself for stuff but it's really hard when you're in that like kind of moment it's difficult to kind of know what you're going to do until it's actually happening yeah and it just feel like it goes on forever doesn't it feels like it's an endless cycle of of going through stress at school and then coming home and having to deal with it and then the next day going and repeating the cycle it doing it all again it does and I think that the main thing that I that I'd say to be honest would be just just have it if you are listening to this and you are going through school just have it in your head that this isn't it's not permanent it is a very long time and it is very difficult but it's not permanent your social ability and your social standing in school and how you operate and your mental health and and all of that stuff it will change it's just you have to remember that it will you have to cling on to that yeah it's it's not permanent I I'm not friends with any of the people from high school now really and what happens in high school and actually going through high school and like your social interactions and everything it doesn't always carry with you it doesn't always like follow you through to adulthood or anything so don't kind of like feel worried about like things yeah don't feel like you're missing out like just a lot of the things that people can do it at that age you can do it at any point in your life it's a very small part of your life and you can do if you want to stay home and play with your toys do it yeah just do it yeah definitely brilliant and I think that's all good and all awesome now I've got the little question I ask everybody who comes on to talk about autism what does autism mean to you I hate this question I get asked this a lot and I never know what to say I just like to hear everybody's different responses to it yeah it's nice it's it's hard to put into words it's just it doesn't define me it's part of who I am but it doesn't define me I'm like so much more than like a label and it's just the fact that my brain is just wired differently that's that's how I see it and there's so there's so much I love about it because a lot of the time people like I hate I hate having this I hate it and I'm just like no to me it's just it's just who I am it's me pretty much it's just me brilliant I don't know no I think that's it I agree like I think it is it's a part of you and it's not all of you but it's it is it is a difference and I think there's there's one thing that springs springs to mind is that autistic and neurotypical people are like an xbox and a ps4 like they both do the same thing but they work differently you can't put an xbox disc into a ps4 and you can't put a ps4 disc into an xbox they both play games and they both do it well that's a good way of looking at it it's not my idea it's actually my wings but I like that though it is good isn't it like I think it's a good analogy yeah um as long as long as the autistic people can be the the PlayStation that's fine I suppose I suppose it makes sense doesn't it because xbox is more sort of on the social kind of angle of it isn't it so it's yeah ps4 is more for like pure gaming isn't it and and I just prefer the ps4 in general I think so I'm not gonna argue on that I'm a bit biased that way I've got an xbox that I have a ps4 thank you very much for that it's always very much appreciated thank you very much for like having me on it's been nice to just like kind of be able to talk about things that normally like well generally you wouldn't really talk about it doesn't you don't talk about these things very often because people find it embarrassing but I think sometimes you kind of need to talk about these things yeah like you need to talk about everything or else everybody doesn't you know it's it's something that happens to everybody like it's it's you need to talk about stuff like this or else people just feel you know some people feel like their experiences are completely to them and they're just really weird and strange and they should just be quiet yeah if you know about other people's experiences then you can you can you can see what your similarities and differences are and and maybe not feel as as alone it's nice to relate to people hmm definitely um would you like to give out any of like social media links and stuff I know that you have a a blog is it yes um all my social media links are the same pretty much it's just like actually asking everything is just that so it's really simple cool I will put all of those links in the in the description of the podcast or the youtube video or whatever and um yeah have you have you enjoyed the podcast I have I've never done a podcast before it's strange because I've started making youtube videos lately and so I like I like that that's okay but I I don't know I was really like worried about doing a podcast in case like I say the wrong thing or I don't know but now that I've actually done one it's it's not as bad as I thought yeah it's it's just a little bit strange isn't it you just it's a bit hard at the start because you have that in mind that you're trying to you feel like you have to try and answer perfectly or yeah or be be some you know perform I suppose but once you get into it it's it just feels more like you're just having a a call and it has been nice to be able to like talk about something that I'm passionate about as well which is really nice I think you you probably have a lot of insights and into this topic as well on on your sort of like your social medias and your blog and stuff so yeah anybody out there definitely go check out her blog and obviously yeah in the description so yeah this is uh this has been the 40-odd podcast I am Thomas Henley and you can find my overwork on Asperger's growth at YouTube at YouTube always get this this part wrong at Asperger's growth for Instagram Twitter and Facebook if you want to follow me I've got a Patreon and obviously the 40-odd podcast is available on YouTube Spotify anchor Apple podcast you can always find it all of those places every two weeks I'm trying to put out an episode so I have to amend that intro at some point but there is also something that I wanted to say just before we round up and finish I am currently in the process of finalizing a documentary that I did for my final year project at university it's called Asperger's in society and it's all about the link between autism and mental health and whether it's it's a matter of biology just inherent being autistic or whether it's more of a social issue and that will be out at some point I'm gonna release a teaser at some point with the intro on it so if you're interested in checking that out I'll put about 200 300 hours into it so I think it'll be good and yeah I'd be much appreciated if you guys checked it out so it is the end of the podcast well I mean it's not the end of the podcast but I never know how to round it up would you like to round up the podcast for me because I am absolutely oh see now that I don't know what I see I hate when people kind of put you on the spot I don't know what to say bye