 So today we're going to talk about do high quality men exist high quality men over 40 and and Let me just say this. I'm not big on the term quality, but I think that generates a conversation I'm really excited to have a dear friend of mine in the house. Dr. Ray. He's a clinical Psychologist actually I want to read his bio for everyone real quick because I love this He is a trailblazer in integrating psychology with Eastern philosophies Technologies science and my favorite spirituality. So welcome, Dr. Ray. Thank you very much for having me. Yeah trail I like that. I like you that you're a trailblazer I feel like I've always called myself a contrarian and in that sense I'm a trailblazer in this conversation particularly for those in midlife and since we're going to talk about dating Relationships and the dynamics go on. Let's just start off this conversation with what's your interpretation of a High-quality man. What does that mean? well, I Think a really good way to describe that would be like what is are the first say the basic needs and or basic Attractions and that might be Physicality it might be that you have a job. It might be that you're great in bed It could be that we can have no simple conversations. Nothing wrong with that We have things in common to live in the same city or at least same state Certain things like that but high quality for me is more of that You're you're going deeper You know that you have to work on yourself and that your partner is going to bring that up and then rather than running or Blaming you create a container in that type of relationship where you both can grow So you both can I guess you say create a sustainable lasting Perpassionate relationship to where you keep rediscovering each other every day And the only way to really do that is when you meet a person who's doing the inner work because you know I know that there are some people they you experience them in a way where it's like It's either kind of boring or if you go back to a high school reunion They're still just talking about the same thing in nostalgia just not interest So we're always becoming new people every day and so we're gathering life experiences and we're becoming we're becoming So we hope our partner is kind of matching us and growing and sharing not just what happened at work But how it made her feel made him feel and what they became after that rather a victim I don't want to be like this so high quality. Is this a person who's more introspective. They may be done some therapy They couldn't they could be a recovering alcoholic. It's not like you're trying to find the perfect person It's kind of more a way a person puts the relationship in a container to grow and expand Okay, I want to address two things So and this this I just want you to spend just a second when you use the term container I think a lot of people in the spiritual realm know what this means But maybe a significant percentage my audience doesn't even you know may not know what that means Really just kind of elaborate that for just a minute So I can dive into something deeper after that. I love that, you know, you know your audience And so container would be like this as an example if you meet a person and You start to date that person for a while like three months six months There's a good chance that if we're having great sex in conversation There's you you're curious of is this a committed relationship. Is this a container? What our relationship are creating where we're no longer date and other people that would be an example Or it'd be something like this When Nicole and I which that's my girlfriend we have some challenges Sometimes it could be when we're in the middle of doing something with one of our kids So it's not a good time to talk or it could just be that we are Reactive we want to sit with ourselves for a moment just and have clarity before we talk We've created the container for pause So we both in any moment over the phone or text message to in person say I'm gonna take a walk I'll get back to you because we have this safe container to take pause and not put urgency into the relationship So there's different containers. So yeah in a relationship container. It could be how do we communicate when we are stressed Are we in a committed relationship? to When we go visit each other's family and we're uncomfortable, how do we communicate about that since it's your dad or mom? You know, I mean, it's like a safe healthy container so we can grow in it. Yeah, so okay couple things I want to share with this First off the reason why I invited you on because I think you're a high-quality man Okay, and again to the extent that what high-quality means. I know you to be a man of integrity a man of Intentionality and most importantly a man who knows how to communicate so coming back to the container I think a couple of things that you brought up was the idea that we make agreements with one another This is the container we're in we're intentional in this process That's the container we're in and why this is so critically important is That I have observed that in the dating realm in the dating marketplace We have a lot of people that are Dating ambivalently. They're dating without Intentionality, they're just seeking their base level needs of Maybe a little bit of companionship and maybe a little bit of connection and maybe a little or a lot of sex Without this container And so I'm really happy you brought this up and for the ladies that watch me, you know Here's an example. I just want to say everyone. This is an example of man who lives he walks his talk You know, he lives it and that's why I brought you on with that said After my divorce Dr. Ray I was a train wreck. I mean I was a dysfunctional walking human being and I was out there in the dating realm Mainly with the what I don't want to say it was even a cognitive mindset But I believe that if I was with the right person, I would be healed I mean, I think I dated with that delusion in mind and it wasn't until I literally stumbled upon personal development Self-help and spiritual or did I realize I was the common denominator of all my problems? so when you said earlier about Introspective people and doing work Does everybody have to do this or some people or you know, is this this is something everybody needs to do? So first off, thank you for seeing yourself and me I mean I was really moved by that so thank you. Oh, you're welcome. So as far as the response to the question How about this? Okay, so would you agree Jonathan that there are a lot of there's a lot of misinformation out there as far as when it comes to relationship tips God, yeah And would you say that most of us didn't really come out of like really healthy chat? We didn't have like the best say role models as when it comes to communication Yeah, and you probably agree also that there's the worst problem-solving Tactics on or skills on TV, right? Really bad poor Children yeah, so But we are have been immersed in that and those type of narratives for a very long time So they create impressions and so when we are stressed when we were we're Stuck in quicksand or our shit or whatever. We all know we are our worst So whether it's with us a grossy Store clerk who's rude to us to someone, you know cuts us off Something comes out of us. We might yell we might swear or something When we're someone on an ongoing basis, we can't run We can't go anywhere and we can't always be on and so whatever is going on inside of us Is going to show up and the relating ship It's going to show up so It's utterly important that you know What's your stuff and what you're feeling and what's going on during a day for you at work or what happened Versus your partner showing up and you just projecting onto him or her Yeah, so whether you want to say it's uh self development Or seeing a therapist. It's more of this. Do I really know myself when I'm with this person? Am I aware of my breath? Am I noticing that I just had a bad day and that's why I'm bothered with him or her It's becoming very aware of yourself. So whatever you need to do to get to that space Absolutely everyone You know, it's interesting. Oh, so um The other day I had dr. Stan Tatkin on who wrote the book wired for love And I'm aware that I'm an anxious attachment style. Like that's my default I'd like to think I'm I'm bordering on secure, but I know my default is anxious And so much so that in my last relationship and that recently ended I was very upfront about my attachment style because I'm aware of it I know that there are times where where there's a lack of communication. I go into anxiety I go into flight, you know, I go into flight mode and or excuse me fight mode in that space And I was upfront about this to the person I was in relationship with To me that's being self aware like know thyself And you know, I I suspect to you know, you're you're a therapist you work with people you coach you You help both men and women I suspect a lot of people aren't even aware that they have Issues and how they relate to other people so and yet You know, I went down a track there that wasn't you know, I'm gonna leave that track alone because I want to go down a different Okay, can I throw in there? So yeah, these are three questions That I have people do this when I would do these authentic relating workshops to get to that space we're talking about to this is something I propose to A couple who has like these uh, these uh These air being bees where we're going to be doing couple retreats there Okay Before you know, we got into business with them. We just started the ball rolling I asked these three questions because whether it's someone I'm going to sleep with or do business with I want to know these things so regardless if you have an anxious Or avoidant or you know insecure attachment style. It doesn't matter if you know these these three things number one What are you like when you are in your shit or what are you like when you are at your worst? First of all, I asked what does that look like? Well, it could be your mom's sick Your son is sick, you know finances are tight and you need to do this or that It's just your you know, sometimes there's too many things coming at you Number two, how do you know and I know when you are in your shit like I start to talk fast. I you know, I'm distant Uh, I I my tonality changes. I sound frustrated or impatient. Okay. The person knows himself We all do yeah number three. How can I support you when you're in your shit? How can I support you when you're you know having those challenges? So the couple we're going to be working with Gave me their responses And we're just starting a new relationship now that I know this Move them forward if something happens I have everything I need to know to keep moving forward and keep the sustainable relationship Because they told me straight out what they are like and they're worse and what I could do to support them And I did the same thing. We know each other really well Yeah So this kind of actually I now know what I wanted to say a moment ago It's it's like knowing my red flags if you will But mel still are just posted the comment Can we sometimes say too much to someone new in our lives? And I'd like to I want to deviate from the conversation because I'm a big proponent of having deeper conversations Early in the dating process Rather than waiting until you're attached to a person Only to find out that there's a misalignment or that there's or they're not really ready for a relationship I think most dating today is so hyper focused on attraction And that and it works, you know gets us hooked to a person But we might get hooked to the wrong person So what's your take on asking deeper questions early in the dating process versus waiting to share something more personal? I'd really like your take on this. Okay. So I say everything So much the first time I meet a person. I do not hold back at all. Okay now I'm with you by the way However, if I'm a person who's insecure And I'm gathering I'm asking a lot of questions because I want to make sure I trust that person So I feel safe That man might feel that that woman might feel like it feels more like an interrogation It it feels like you're just trying to gather information. You're not really trying to get to know me So it's very important that what's shared or questions you ask It's to create connection not judgment So you can just say this person's not a match and I see that often in the dating world Where they're asking questions so they feel safe and they so they don't get hurt And so what they do is they attract people who are unavailable law of attraction to where they might Show up awkward on the date because they're so hurt so When There's a line between asking So let me be clear. So if you're coming from a place of fear Then if I'm getting you right, then you're doing yourself a disservice If it's a way to relate connect and gather information too because I think we do need to get How do we get to know someone as we ask questions? It's it's where you're coming from that matters most. Is that right? That's it's more that space more of that space because if you are at peace regardless of what happens on this day It's just a person that you're sharing time with to get to know and It's it's okay if it doesn't work out. No, like if I've heard Date, I mean, I was on a date before and I remember behind me Somebody was meeting some for the first time. I heard questions like so. Do you do you want to have kids? To like really big questions Yeah, like big questions to like was trying to avoid a train wreck or whatever you want to call it And it it was strange And so this is my advice when you meet someone first second or third date Those three questions I mentioned You would hope to know that and it's an easy way to ask this person, you know What are you like when like what are you like when you're in your stuff and you're stressed out? You know, it's cool to know like, you know, it's it doesn't you don't you don't have to ask it from a place Like you like you're afraid or it's going to bother them The other one is this is here's another funny question that I do in these authentic Relating games. Okay, I've done it on first dates. Okay. If I were to put all your axes in the same room What would they say are your greatest strengths and weaknesses? Yeah, oh, I gotta write that one down. Okay, okay So here's the thing that person who's light hearted and knows him or herself Is going to take that in a light way and kind of go wow Yeah, they I'm I work work too much. I'm a workaholic to my you know or strengths might be you know I follow through I commit to Or the weakness might be lack of self-care who but it's like this person's letting you know Because you it's to me. It's very easy to be attracted to someone that basically looks great They have a great voice. They like to dance and everything else But so many of us particularly if this is for people who are over 40 or 50 You've been on that path already, you know, like that doesn't necessarily lead to success so Be discerning and take your time and get to know this person and that they're just standoffish You can go. Well, maybe it's just that date or you can kind of create An excuse or say I'll wait on his potentiality Or it might be just like that's how he communicates And if he is guarded the first two three dates trying to get to know him That's him this trust That's him and you're not there to be his therapist and pry at him and and going to self doubt Maybe you asked me questions It might be just that he hasn't been very introspective He might be not that what we call high quality person and not judging not that he's lower But it's this the person who's done some talking to a therapist or a person who's talked to friends a person who's open That's going to be a most of the questions are probably going to be pretty comfortable So, all right, so are you open to be are you willing to be a little open here and share like a big thing You and you and nicole talked about on your first date like something big Well on this one here is kind of interesting because our actual first date was um A play date with our kids. So it wasn't really first day. So that's kind of a but very early on um Okay, let me go somewhere with this because we you know, we when we started going out and I just moved to a different state and so was I was in transition It was It was funny on that on that play on that play date She never runs into him but the The father of her child happened to be running through a park and we happened to say here's so so here's so so It was really funny. It was really funny how that happened but We would talk about things like um I'm kind of drawn a blank here. Like we talk about everything. Um, oh, this is one so I shared with her shared with her that I said, you know, um I And still and I'm getting to know you but just know that I have a very close relationship With a with a woman named Nina And I was basically telling her that while I am getting to know you I recently was very close to someone that I love and I moved out of that state Just to let her know that there's a possible chance that My friend Mina maybe would have moved up there too or whatever But I was letting her know that I like you a lot But I just moved out of a relationship and her and I were more friends, but there's still that connection She was very happy to hear that She she asked more questions about that. So that would be an example of like see that You know, by the way, that's big, you know, and I really, you know, I think you and I are very similar We are not unafraid to go the the Maybe we'll call it the tougher conversations the deeper conversations But what you were doing there was being authentic And and and to some degree you're aware that some people might react a certain way to that information And they could react in a negative way or a positive way It seems to me, Nicole certainly appreciated your authenticity in your transparency And because You know, if you're still connected with somebody else that could you know affect how somebody else engages with you So that that took a lot of courage on your part But also it's great that she didn't see that as a threat because I'm assuming she didn't see that as a threat No, she appreciated it because Again, we were creating a container Yes And if this container was loose and leaky She would want to know that because she's an adult and she could maybe date me casually as I'm getting to know her But she wouldn't uh like close herself off from maybe meeting other people That's why we would want to be very open honest and also in that conversation Yeah I was also talking to someone else who was here as well who was interested in me And it was a friend of hers and and nothing I Not we never went on a date, but I knew the energy was there She was attracted to me that you know, we both are kind of going back and forth This and by the way so and so was kind of interested interested in me as well. I think And if all reached out to her And actually oh get to know To be like a sister And you know, she said that you know, there was some strangeness there some awkwardness because that person was interested in me But she also was dating some for a while. So it wasn't like she was available. Anyway, okay Okay, she's kind of but the point is that I just opened it up like hey I'm moving this to into this new town I started to talk to one person I liked Nicole There's this other person who who was I was talking to And you know, I just left a person who I'd been involved with the year prior who I still stay in touch with And what could have came up with that is this I don't want to date you until you're clear or you're not the person for me I would have been okay with that You know lying or holding back has only gotten me into trouble Well, I would venture to say most of the women hearing this probably say well It's rare that you'll get a guy to be that honest You know to be that I think it's really a reflection of your character and I I view you as a man of deep integrity And and you're not alone here, you know, I I want to say My my audience sometimes doesn't believe good men exist they don't believe men of character exist and and I brought you on because I know so many men of character of integrity of Of of the capacity to be vulnerable to be authentic to be transparent Um, actually really quickly, uh, dr. Ray. I um, you're familiar with the Hoffman group, right? Yes. Yes So I went to a graduate meeting uh last week and there was 12 people And believe it or not, it was eight men and four women You know, so, you know, I think women tend to believe men don't do work in the area of personal development self-help and spiritual work and I'm here to say and I'd like to Find out your take on it. I believe there's a significant percentage of men who are doing the work To be introspective to heal from their wounds to be better versions of themselves Is that your experience as well? Well, I I agree with you and I do have male friends such as yourself who I feel step into that space To where I have attracted many male clients where I thought to myself if I wanted to open up a matchmaking Business, I would have some high quality men, but that's okay. I do like so There there are a lot of men Out there like that now when I say a lot What if it's only 20 percent or even 15 percent You might say, oh my god, like that's I'm not going to have a really good chance finding this person However, if you are the person who's clear with the type of man you want to do is to me Then it wouldn't really matter because that person's seeking you too because they're just not looking for any type of A woman this is it's interesting interesting in this. Well, so just say if it's a woman who Values herself. She has confidence or she's just to work on herself. She wants to go deeper. She wants something rich She's growing. She's doing a lot of the same things that she'd want This partner to do then of course like is going to track like so But there's other Women who are looking for something that's different But I feel is though that there's someone out there for someone You know, there's your your matches out there Well, I often say that And this is just a judgment and an opinion on my part I say roughly 20 of the population has clinical issues And I say roughly 60 of the population has dysfunctional issues And then there's probably 20 of the population that are doing the inner work They're doing the healing there. They're studying communication skills. They're learning about quality relationships And and so is to piggyback on what you said if it's 20 or 15 percent I I subscribe to that to some degree. Yeah. Um be what you want to attract and yet And I'm and I'm guilty of what I'm about to say, you know, I think to some degree We all think we're better than what who what we are To some degree and I don't mean that as a delusional thing I I think, you know, we'd like to think we're I think most people most men in particular But most people are good human beings. They have good hearts They're just I always say there's good men out there. They're just bad daters Yes, absolutely most people do not know how to date, you know, in fact, one of the programs I Had that I did a while back. It was on In part of it was the lead magnet, you know, for people to join the the workshop was the top 10 red flags women could avoid While dating, you know, try to attract a high quality man And if you go through these 10 things it'd be impossible to Get in a relationship that was toxic dysfunctional and so forth You know, there's really basic things and every time I read some of these two women hands down Every time they say wow, I wish I knew that you want me to share some of them? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah Career, you know Career goals are like what he's doing. So if he doesn't like what he's doing it's going to show up in a relationship Yeah, so you want someone who who basically has some type something that keeps him alive He could be a retired person, but he loves gardening He needs to have some type of passion Otherwise that you know, he's going to put that onto the relationship where you always have to be on, you know, it's How well does he keep commitments if it's someone who you see being flaky with this and that and His son or whatever else he's going to do that in a relationship. So it's very important to watch what he's doing See his actions. It's uh How does he talk about his x y for a girlfriend? She's a bitch She's that well this person's hasn't grown or taken any personal responsibilities So he's still in that kind of blaming stage to where you're going to be the next person that you know He talks about to the next say relationship he gets gets into So it's like these are certain things you want to listen to to even You know, how well does he take care of his body like this diet his habits and stuff like that Why is that important? Well, first off, you don't want to bury a man because he's just so unhealthy But how well a person takes care of him himself Is he me reflection of how important or how you show up in his life? Say planning the birthday parties and stuff like that. So it's like more and often that I see more women maybe it's men too, but They'll still see the potential and then try to change him or feel like that they can compromise or But you can start seeing certain actions. I just shared some some of these things here. I don't want to take with all time Oh, no, no, well, you know, it's interesting because I think of red flags There's kind of character red flags. That's really should be deal breakers, you know Yes And and to me a red flag means ask more questions, you know, I'll be candid with you I I saw red flags in my previous relationship But I turned them into green flags Not because not character issues It's just some slight misalignment between the two of us and I think to some degree a relationship is a container to You know, for me what it did was I pushed past some of my judgments I pushed past some of my My expectations and really Practiced the closest thing to unconditional love I'd ever experienced Um, and I learned so much about myself in this experience. And so while they weren't red flags per se You know, I went in with high hopes and it didn't work out and that's Kind of the nature of life too. Sometimes you can give it your all Another person could give it their all and it's still not work out um so Just to piggyback on something else Just hoping I don't like to throw you off here, but no, I'm working with a man currently who Uh, he is very say sexual and he likes affection and so forth and he Is in a relationship where he's been with this woman for seven years And she is straight out told them that I give you sex to like as if it's an obligation And he's shared this this to the way she communicates Okay, even where she's kind of cold and he's also shared her background where she grew up Mormon And her she was shunned and every her sexuality was shunned and everything else I said, are you hearing what you're saying here? Are you hearing us? You you're wanting something from a person who's never even been that Maybe you'll get there, but she hasn't done therapy in your company. I want to make sure that We're not working together together with the expectation. She's gonna become a freak in the bedroom She is so far from that to the point where she's saying, you know having sex with men is an obligation Oh, wow, that's a pretty big red flag. Yeah, you see I'm coming but I'm bringing us up because People will hear this but they're so desperate. They'll bypass that Yeah, I think we I think we as humans can gaslight ourselves, you know And and and I'm now certainly in my own life I'm more aware of the importance to really stick with my must haves in relationship and be very Clear on what those are You know, um, we have a question that did pop in and I want to offer if anyone has a question Write the word question then post the question thereafter for dr. Ray or myself Mel just wrote How can we have honest relationships without being judgmental? I could respond that right away. Yeah, I know I'd like you to So I like to use the word discernment Yeah So of course if I were well it came up Before my current relationship. I was with someone who That was 17 years younger than me and no, I'm not when those Older dudes going I went for her because she was younger. This is someone who was into spiritual work Who spoke to us on the same level? But when it came to life experiences and to say be more mothering towards my son She didn't have it and I wasn't working for a mother it was more mother instincts and the the ability to be able to Show up and so forth and I I noticed that I was it was like I was taking care of two kids Now was I judging or I was I being discerning? Yeah, okay And if I were judging isn't that good judgment? Hey, I'm gonna judge us this person's younger She's on a different path. She has more life experiences to have and I'm older and this is what I prefer I'm judging this might not be for me or I'm discerning. This is not you know for me It's I think it's very important judgment is when I think and by the way I am my my whole coaching practice is centered around being discerning, you know Being way more discerning and not Allowing chemistry and attraction alone to be the driving force of the relationship I think of judgment is is if I think of someone is being bad for Who they are or a behavior if I if I classify that as bad Instead of just it is like what you're sharing is Oh, this person may not be aligned for what I need in relationship If you went on to make a the judgment would be they are bad for that That to me is the kind of the line where judgment Is um has a charge to it in comparison to discernment Um, so like you look at it as a character flaw in a negative way or okay, or even name call Yeah, I didn't realize that like for me I know that we have to judge whether or not it's safe to cross the street You know what I mean things like that so I kind of have a very neutral way of looking at it But I also know the other approach where a person's looking at you and and saying because you did this You're a horrible person. Yeah, or also saying I know why you didn't call me back because you are blah blah blah so Yeah, well, I think you know, we're also in an environment in our society where there's almost micro judgments happening Every second of the day you and I both have a social media presence There are people that will comment on something that we say in an accusatory fashion in a judging way and And and we recognize that you and I would recognize that someone's projection Of of what's going on for them, but they're projecting it on to us But I do believe that because of social media. We are bombarded with judgments You know not maybe about ourselves, but certainly about what's happening in the world and I I do believe that has um It like it's like tainted us or or it's like an infection. It's like um, it's um I think it's made us I think humans can be a little less compassionate that when they once were just an observation I have anyway Catherine has a question um What's your advice for someone who has burnt out from dating apps and is 40 and wants a family Oh, I love this question. Dr. Ray. Are you open to taking that one? What's your advice for someone who's burnt out from dating apps and is 40 and wants a family? Uh, well, what I don't know is if this is a man or woman is it? I'm it's a woman Catherine and the family is to have children I'm assuming that so what where I I'm not sure how to answer it It would be where like you want to have your own baby or meet a man has a child and so it's just more that uh You know now I know women a lot of women a lot of women are having children in their 40s now So I wasn't really sure but I know sometimes you can be more difficult well, you know, I think where I would like to focus on is the burnout piece because um, you know And by the way, you're just for the record if I didn't state this clearly a dr. Ray's in a really fantastic relationship with nicole um, you post uh, quite a bit About your lives together on social media. You both have children. You're integrated into each other's lives You didn't mean on a dating app Would you be open to share where you met? Facebook Well, and I suspect facebook was a a friendly way of the two of you how you two met it was in a friendly Um environment you weren't strangers, you know to one another Well, Jonathan, I'm gonna share something then I imagine particularly like women they'll go. Oh my god. It sounds so romantic It was meant to be And go I want that but that's this is like this is tv and film they do this and they put that in your head Like it's got to be organic or whatever So I originally met her in 2010 at uh lightning the bottle festival with 20 000 people and I didn't know it Out of 20 000 people I happened to take a picture of her When we were dating I was cleaning up my hard drive and I went What? I sent the picture. I said is it is this shoe? She said yes Okay, and we didn't even know it so Oh, wow. So you guys actually met 10 years earlier And you just happened to send this to her through facebook and it started a conversation. Oh, no no when we at So we are in the healing community and we know a lot of same people That's why she was comfortable of connecting with me particularly because I was moving into a new town I wanted to start doing workshops. So I was actually going to team up with her So it was more like hey, you know, I do the same thing you do. We met that way But then we started like becoming interested in each other and a more romantic way And then like two three months into that I happened to be going through my computer and found the picture Oh, got it. Got it. Got it. I wrote hey, we met actually and that kind of tripped us out so But uh, that's a great story Yes, so by the way, we had another question really quickly, but uh share what you're going to share Well, I want to respond that to that thing here. So and by the way, thank you Julia Julianne for the $10 super sticker We really appreciate it all the monies that we collect from super stickers super chat goes to a scholarship fund In the name of my son Connor asley. He's my son who passed away over five years ago in his honor We donate to causes like the hoffman process inside institute and seeds of love. So julianne. Thank you for the $10 super sticker I'm gonna answer this question But I want to like to talk about the burnout if any person is in the space Being jaded. I don't think they should go out there and date Yeah, they'll show up. Okay. Yeah. So the question is this To ask yourself like if I were to go through that process It would be What is it that I'm burned out about the results? How I feel afterwards in other words Some people They when they go out on a on a date They become very disappointing on one two three dates while other people are exciting and saying I'm meeting new people. It's not a match, but this is fun So I'm curious about of the approach of of going out there If a person is not intentional your language and discerning Then you'll just go out with a lot of different people and be disappointed So the way to use an app and this is how I specifically shared this with my clients was this Okay, first off I know as women particularly like if you have really attractive pictures on there The the moment you just put yourself out there you get like 50 strange Like messages from all kinds of men. Okay. I know you have to get through that crap. Okay But let's just say you finally have people you're talking to The conversations should be like this. They say hello I they should have read something in your profile. Yeah, just put in this Just some type of like they're not like look at your picture and said what's up the No, you want a little bit more substance. Okay bottom line. You might make it you might make an excuse for them Oh, maybe there's just not talkative No, this is the greatest thing about an app is is recognizing that I don't have to be like A people pleaser. I don't have to worry. Yes someone's feelings So no so Someone who actually is interested in you and and highlight some of the things that you maybe said the other part is Maybe two messages at the most at the most where it's like hello It seems like a real person's not a bot Yeah, I'm on a phone call have a phone call for about 15 to 30 minutes. That's it If there's a good vibe then plan the date. Yes. That's it I'm a big proponent of the rule two two messages one phone call then the date. Maybe don't I talk time I have my role just you might be interested in my role. It's called three two one three and that is no more than three email exchanges if you're using like a match.com should lead to one or two telephone calls So that's the two and that should lead to one date and it shouldn't take more than three weeks I mean and that's really stretching it. I I agree with you. I know you're saying I know I I I endorse that one there that in other words the first date should happen within three weeks of that first email Couple exchanges via email one or two phone calls and the second phone call could just be Coordinating the date get the date all done But people will spend I mean we could go on a diatribe of how people will spend Months if not years Having a text relationship and never meet a person So let's go back to julianne's question Because I'd like your take on this is a 51 year old man who has never been married never had kids a huge red flag So, um, I didn't have a child until I was uh, 46 years old And it happened in a very strange way. Yeah, so my son showed up when he's five and a half months old So I didn't know I got someone pregnant. Yeah, well, so I was single Uh, I was 46, but I had the same consciousness I have right now big difference So I wasn't playing around. I just happened to be single because I like I'm I'm happy by myself I love life I love teaching and nothing to do with with that. I had issues with being an intimate or committed relationship So I just want to throw that piece out there If the 51 One-year-old man has had long-term relationships five to ten years If he talks about in healthy ways like he grew from it If he seems he's happy if he shares that, you know, I just haven't had kids You know, and it just didn't happen to me. That sounds pretty reasonable He maybe has been living his life a different way now It's clear when you communicate to a man where he sounds like he wants to avoid responsibility That he has been basically searching for himself for a very long time and he talks about relationships being a drag That's a red flag And this and what is what you're seeing say 51 never being married and not having kids is a by-product of that You can instead of listening like looking at the like say the cover of the book 51 You can get the listen to how he communicates because if he Has just say he maybe was a lot late bloomer to where he had alcoholic parents He entered therapy to where he learned to have a relationship with himself at the age of 37 years old To he embarked on different other things in life. He might be an amazing man It's really depends on what he has become become and how he can match your energy And by the way, thank you for sharing your story. That's very vulnerable and for those that don't know dr. Ray I just want to say this This man is a dedicated father to his son I I witness on your how much you share Personally about your relationship with your son. You're an incredibly devoted father I mean quite more more so than I ever was at that stage because I was going through the midst of a divorce and you know How you you how that circumstance changed your life and it was this great blessing I know you've spoken that many a times that you didn't anticipate When you got that knock on the door But the my product of that is amazing and just to piggyback on something one of my oldest friends He didn't get married until I think he was 46 years old and didn't have his first child until he was 49 Uh, and he was a man who had multiple long-term relationships, but he had codependency issues And he he went to codependence anonymous He started to do therapy in his late 30s and realized that you know a byproduct of all of his Relationship experience was because he didn't have good role models growing up and he had some trauma growing up So it wasn't until he became a a person who's really become more introspective Started to do work was he ready to and get and then he eventually got married and now he has children It's kind of the joke between us because all of our children are growing up in adults and he still has young children So julienne, I hope dr. Ray answered your question. Here's the bottom line You know I think this is I know ray. Dr. Ray would agree, you know life's a journey And each person's experience is you know, there's the most important thing I would say in this case is Are the two of you are lined with a relationship future Does this person want maybe marriage or living together or be in full commitment or not? That would be the most important question I'd want to get answered and that might dispel the the red because a red flag simply means ask questions If it's a deal breaker, then it's a deal breaker I really like your response what you said about your friend also Became a higher quality man did the work And he's older and what you just said also too is that the 51 year old man If he's meeting where you are now meaning that he's 51 years old. He has no baggage actually He's done he went to a couple tony robbins workshops great and he's now ready. How awesome So I agree Okay, so as we get to the close of this I have two big questions to ask you Women always say where do we meet quality men? So where's where are all the quality men hanging out? So similarly to myself and how I met Nicole is I am very much involved in like a spiritual healing community so whether that would be church or uh going to joe dispenser workshop to you know, he he's an author to Going in. Well, so first off the first thing would be this is am I a high quality woman? Yeah, now when you've asked yourself that I know we don't like that label high quality, but Am I comfortable with myself? Am I comfortable being asked any question? Am I transparent? Am I open with my sexuality? How authentic am I? I would go down the punch list Of what you want out there with that man within yourself start with that Because when you start with that you become that you're also going to be able to get clear with The type of man I like would probably be over here You know, he'd be doing these things So if you're like literally looking for like a physical place to go It would be a man who's doing those things you're doing You know with with yourself. That's why I mentioned that Higher quality men have a tendency to maybe say do yoga or go to the gym to they're just they're listening to Podcasts where they're learning information. You know, they're they're they're just you know, they have a zest for life You know, they're just not I mean I wake up. I go to my job. I come home I sit on my couch and open up a beer They want much more life than that Now that I am I'm my relationship ended and I find myself back in the dating marketplace although I haven't I'm not actually doing anything about it yet I'm making a conscious effort. You know, I work from home, you know, I I can be isolated in that regard I'm making a conscious efforts. I'm going to spiritual workshops. I'm doing I just did a retreat last weekend I'm connecting with people that there's a There's a wellness group here just a mile away from where I live and I'm going to join them and there's yoga And there's meditation and sound bowls. I mean, these are just things that interest me And and ladies listen, he's telling you right now. We both are see yeah This is and your high quality male friends. They do a lot of these same things, right? Yeah, the type of friends I have and I have a variety of different types of personality male friends But yeah, and and to that extent and I've gone as I shared earlier when I went to the Hoffman graduate class There were more men there than there were women You know, so I've noticed that even in these meditation classes. There are a lot of men there So, uh, I don't feel alone in that regard. So, okay What is a high quality? Wait, man. Let's go back to Mary Jana's question What do high quality men like most about women and I'm going to ask it twofold What are they looking for in women? And what do they most like and and I think you'd be perfect for answering this question Sure, so this is For someone like myself who is semi retired Uh, I'm debt-free and I pretty much have a very drama-free life and do like I just have a really good life I want a woman who I'm dating to be able to take personal responsibility and what I mean by that is where if stuff is coming up for her with in our relationship that Not only will she talk to me about it, but she has Her morning rituals or a way in which she can self reflect so she can take responsibility What's coming up for her so we can continue to grow and expand and because otherwise if I'm in a relationship where We're having the same conversation about the same thing when I can't do anything I would feel stuck And so for me That's like a big thing. It's where that's the over arch and reason why I like women Even I have a lot of female friends who do the work because we look at life differently every day. We're growing So it it I'm more attracted and so when I'm in an intimate relationship with a woman I want to I don't want it to be where I have to carry a load and which is not mine Yes, that's why I mentioned it with I've I have a son I have a son. I have things I've created a life not controlling in a way, but I do walk my talk So I want to make sure That I'm not carrying someone's load because that will turn into resentment and I won't be having fun So, okay, I have a question, but I want to share with you just a Not a philosophy, but a model that I have in the dating realm We oftentimes think of a track. I I call it the relationship iceberg And above the water line is attraction and what I mean is that's the first thing we see We see if we're attracted to someone and we call that chemistry most often Below the water line. I talk about shared values lifestyles that are blendable And more importantly what you've been describing is emotional maturity and relationship skills The tricky part of that piece is It's not like you can meet someone on the first date and get that particular question answered But I have a feeling you learn that very quickly with Nicole her level of emotional maturity and her relationship skills If your memory if in your memory banks you recall Was there anything that you noticed very early on that gave you a clue That she has emotional maturity and relationship skills Absolutely. Well, first off, that's why I brought up prior to what you're asking now about Reflecting on yourself Okay, and why these things so I have deep confidence in myself and and how I vibrate To where I have a tendency to just attract that like, you know, I ran into gary zukov sunday And oh you did. Yeah, and and and neil neil donnell wash the next day That's an example of where we had a great conversation And I'm in the middle of like editing my book right now and I was going to get them to try to endorse it But I and that submitted it to them. I just have to run into them physically. Okay. Got it. Got it I'm jealous by the way So I I I just know that that's how my life is so I wouldn't expect anything different And so It was there. So when we met we were laughing our our asses off We can just in fact, we started talking about david data. You know, we just started talking about different things and You know, and so we just went right went we went right there But here's a very important thing for me as well, which Specifically has to do with the coal She's in new jersey. So she and my father's from new york. So I have a we have the same kind of back east humor Okay. Well She likes she loves sarcasm. She likes to joke around a lot She laughs a lot. She has so much joy in her eyes. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm attracted to to light And so for for for me When a person's doing their work Somehow They see life in a very loving and positive way Yeah, hope And somehow I see it. I feel it. They're attracted to me and I'm attracted to them And so I saw her joy. We were laughing Like like a lot right away and it wasn't because Necessary what I was saying was funny or what she was saying was funny We both had that humor inside. So when we came together, we just brought those parts out of ourselves You know, you have to become that what you seek You have to become what you seek Well, let me ask you a question. I this just popped up now Do you believe that when we connect, you know, whether we call them soulmates or, you know, different terminology I do believe that when we meet A potential partner Okay, I mean someone where you're going to go on this journey, whether it's a short lived journey or it's still the You know, end of each other's time There's a resonance that happens. There's a there's a vibe There's a connection that isn't based on lust and it isn't based on limerence It's it's it's almost an intangible Is that kind of how you felt when you met her? There was this intangible intangible Vibe between the two of you Not necessarily Again, because like I can say I saw that in Mina also my Ex-girlfriend and friend to other people I meet Well, that's why I said the time that length doesn't count. So yeah, yeah, so it's just more like Like where I live now as well. There's a lot of lit up people. It's why okay So there's like a lot of fame like where I live. There's a lot of famous authors So, uh, it's it's just Again, well, here's it if you if there's a person who's going through hardship Who's depressed? Yeah, he's had who has had a lot of struggle in life or is burned out or just just jaded about relationships It's going to show up in communication They're not going to be light hearted. Got it. Got it. Got it No, that's such a you what you just shared and I've gone on dates in my life where I could be sitting across a person And I could literally visually see every man who's ever hurt her Standing right behind her. It was an energy. It wasn't like that. Well, I mean not literally but it figuratively I think there's something about Doing the work Brings out our light. It brings out our joy. It brings out our our happy place and And those in the case of what the two of you is you've got a chance to see each other from the heart centered space And not the armor that oftentimes is associated When you're feeling burnt out and and jaded, you know burnt out on dating apps and burnt out on the whole process And worrying about whether or not they've been married or have children all that stuff um I think i'm just reminded of And I i'm i'm saying this out loud because I need to hear this myself is to come back to beginner's mind Yeah, you know and and let go of the past the past is prologue How can I show up merely as the best version of myself? Absolutely, you mentioned about how That light was already there. So a lot of people project on to her and I Of their fantasies to saying we are the perfect couple by maybe how we look that we're both coaches We both have boys close and age like different things like that the way we communicate We're very alike in many ways. However, what comes to that also is our independence so two days ago her and I had a conversation and We went to a circus and I forgot what it was but my son was struggling with allergies and a few other things and I didn't seem like I was in a Good mood And also coming from la and seeing the best performers and then coming here to ash and organ It's so different than say the entertainment there where you get the best in the world Where you have people here? I wouldn't I'm not they're talented, but it seems more like amateurs compared to What I've seen. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Got it. So she she says, you know, sometimes you you see I just want to make sure you're happy You seem critical and you talk about these things and I'm like it's just more a matter of fact but it led to a conversation of where That one of reasons why sometimes people want to get out of relationship Is because they don't want to hear complaints about them that how they are Particularly if you get really used to living by yourself You don't have to have to hear that and if you are say hi call the man or a woman You also don't have challenges having sex. You have you have friends. You could do whatever you want So you can you can get really comfortable being single Yes, and then I brought that up to her. I said, you know, I go I go it's my if if there was a shadow Is I would work on relationships, but also There was there was always that part of me that was like, fuck it because I'm like, I'm happy to be by myself I'm not struggling and I I don't feel loneliness and Nicole said that's the same with me And she said she said I would be happy anyway And I said, well, that's why I love you and we we we have this knowingness That sure we can thrive without each other And that is also the light in our heart that brings us together and brought us together So we never go into space of like something bad is going to happen if we break up. Therefore, there's no resistance Yeah, tension we're like and and you're not going to cling to something from a place of desperation or scarcity or whatnot I'm going to wrap up, but I want to share something that you might get a kick out of You remember my previous relationship with sherry, right? Dr. Jerry Myers and And that ended six years ago In that period of time before I met Marie I actually for the first time in my life that five year period where I was single I actually learned how to enjoy my own company Yes, like I I was like, well, I actually like my own company. I I I so I operated from a complete I probably operated from a very Co dependent energy my entire life Even to some degree believing I need someone to love me so I can feel good about myself I am very clear. I don't need someone to love me for me to feel good about myself I don't need someone to be with me to feel good about myself. I do want a partner in my life I'm very clear But that space in it of itself is so freeing. It's so empowering And I think it's attractive. So, you know, I'm sharing this for everyone You know, when you can truly learn to enjoy your own company, that's when people ask when am I ready? That's when you're ready Yeah, if you don't if you can't be with yourself then who wants to be with you or That it's it's going to be kind of that same thing. It will eventually show up So meaning that like whatever When when I'm with a person or I meet a person who Has taken some time to be with herself Wherever we are Like whether we're seeing a show Or there's something doesn't work out. We get a flat tire Because they have spent Time and that space to sit with themselves in their emotions They usually turn anything even challenges into a positive thing. Yeah Yeah So Dr. Ray, did we answer the question do high quality men over 40 exist? Do you think we answered it? I think so Okay My friend, thank you so much for joining me on my channel. You have um your wisdom your your heart Your um your presence, you know, they are all things that I just You know, I'm just grateful to be in your orbit. Um, and um You know, thank you again for being on the channel and sharing your wisdom with everybody I appreciate your heart and how open you are with your journey as well Yeah, well, thank you All right, everyone. We're gonna wrap up this conversation do high quality men exist I want to thank margaret and sherry and jane and cc and melanie and dela and osmond and sherry and every jess and uh, mika and I but your names habitually everyone Thanks for being on live wishing you a fantastic weekend Oh, by the way, there'll be a link below to get To connect with ray on his channel and I'll also put a link to his website and how you can connect him as well Okay. Thank you. All right everyone. Thanks for being on