 Welcome to another show of Celebrate Life. Actually, today is the second anniversary of the beginning of the show, so we're happy to be doing this for two years now. My name is Gary DeCarlis, and I'll be your host for today. Over the years, I've read too many obituaries that left me pondering why did I not have a chance to meet this person while they were alive. The goal of this show is to celebrate people's lives while they're very much part of our community. Some people you'll recognize, other people you may not, but I can tell you this, everyone has a story to tell. If you would like to be interviewed on the show, please get in touch with me at celebratelife0747 at gmail.com or if you have a question for our guest who is Joey Donovan today, please again send me an email at celebratelife0747 at gmail.com and I'll get it over to Joey. So with that, I'd like to welcome Joey Donovan. Great to have you on the show today, Joey. Thanks, Gary. It was a struggle to get here, but I'm very happy to be here. But we made perseverance. So while we're here to celebrate your life today, so let's maybe we can start by having you tell us where it all began. Well, I was actually a native Burlingtonian and there are, as the older I get, the fewer I think we are. And I was born in the Dagoesburg hospital and then my parents took me home to our first home, which was on Standford Road in the new North End. And that was a wonderful neighborhood at the time because Oakland Terrace and other streets were being developed. So there was always an opportunity to see some action and some great machinery and fellows telling you to get out of the way and but always looking forward to more kids moving in. And so we had a wonderful life out there in the new North End. And I went for one year to kindergarten at the old Thayer School. It's now, I think it's a drug store. It looks like H.O. Wheeler and the old Champlain School. And I often, I can't believe that my parents, I was in the afternoon session. So I walked all the way up Standford Road and all that Northern Avenue to Thayer School by myself. I think that's what happened those days. Yes. You know, people just know anything about evil or anything like that. So that's right. You just did what you had to do. Wow. But it was a great neighborhood. And as I said, lots of kids to play with and a lot of cellar holes to play in. And I get the construction people a little bit nervous. So, and then you moved? Yes. I think my father used to come home for lunch every day. And he was a lawyer and his office was at 200 Main Street. And I think at some point he decided it just was too far to come home for lunch. So instead of we had to all move in town to make it easier for him to come home for lunch. Interesting. And we all went home. My brothers who were in Cathedral Grair School, I was at Mount St. Mary's, everybody came home for lunch. And my mother, God bless her, used to, we have almost like a dinner for lunch. And, you know, we'd have roast chicken at night and have pot roast or something for lunch. Wow. I often wonder about how she ever got through those days because it was, they were long days, pulled a lot of things to do. Wow, a wonderful home environment. It sounds like Joey. It was. It was a terrific environment. And I think one thing that I don't think that I wrote in some of my stories to you was the poor farm used to be out on the end of Ethan Allen. You go to the Ethan Allen Park. I think that's the Ethan Allen Highway. Yeah. It was way at the end of that. And I can remember my mother going out to meet this man who used to walk by and she always said, you'd be very respectful for him because he's living at the poor farm. Interesting. And we always, we, my brothers and sisters and I always thought that people in need had marked a tree or something in front of our house wherever we lived because they always found my mother. And she thought it was so generous with her time and food and money. So we always had some interesting people who we learned that we were quite fortunate to know them. So Joey, is the, is the park, Letty Park named after your dad? It is. And it just all sort of happened very quickly. The city had just bought that land from, I think, a company called Corenco or something like that. And so they were developing it into a park and my father died very suddenly in January of 72. And it was a shock, all of us. And certainly to, you know, friends and neighbors and people in Burlington. And he had served a long time back in the, I think the early thirties and forties on the park commission in Burlington. And he just loved, he was a farm boy from Underhill. So he loved country settings. He loved the environment. He was really quite an environmentalist too back before it was known that we all should be. And so it was just wonderful that all of a sudden the commission decided to name the park for him because they were just developing it. Wow. That's amazing. My mother used to buy birthday cakes for my children from the Carvel Ice Cream Cake thing in the shopping center. And I remember I was going to pick up a cake one day and this very nice woman who was working the counter said, you know, she had my mother's name, Mrs. Luddy. And she said, oh my gosh, it was so nice of your family to donate all that land. And I said, honey, if we owned an inch of it, I'd be living there now. But it was quite an honor. And I'm sure my father is very proud to have that. Absolutely. That was a nice honor. So as a young girl, what was when you thought about what do I want to be when I grow up? What were some of your thoughts? Well, I think I wanted to be a cowgirl. I was very into Annie Oakley and Cowboys as well. I was a great fan of Jean Autry's. I thought Roy Rogers was trying to take his title of King of the Cowboys. So I was taken with them, the old West and Cowboys and everything. So I think I probably would have maybe featured a stint as Annie Oakley in something. But I don't think I could ever ride the horse that she did. But I don't think I thought about a career for a long time, Gary. I just, you know, life just sort of evolved in front of you and life was very simple. Yeah, yeah. Well, when you moved in town, though, then you changed schools, obviously. You went to... I went to Mount St. Mary's again. Mount St. Mary's, yes, okay. And the good sisters allowed boys to come to the school through kindergarten, through second grade, and then they had to go somewhere else. They were well involved. Oh, interesting. So I graduated in eighth grade from Mount St. Mary's. And at that time, the Rice Memorial High School was being built. And so I told my father and mother that I wanted to leave the academy. And my father was just really against it because he said he thought that any well-trained woman should be trained by the sisters. And so I think I threatened to leave home and run away and take the next bus out of town. And all those idle threats teenagers make. And to my surprise, he finally said it would be okay. So at 14 years old, the high school at that time was on Pearl Street downtown, but they didn't have room for all four grades. So freshmen used to go to Pomeroy School, which was an old school that looked again like the architecture that many schools did. And so we were all together at Pomeroy's Freshman. And so, and we moved to Rice, I think, the second semester of that year. And it was just so glitzy new and beautiful. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There was a special difference. But it was Pomeroy, when I was 14, there was a girl's entrance and there was a boy's entrance. Interesting. You never interchanged either way. Right, yep. But I can remember it was difficult for me in that fall. It was 1958. And my father, the previous summer, had weakened and couldn't send it to running for governor. I would go in the girl's entrance at Pomeroy. Some of my fellow students, mostly young gentlemen, would wave down to me. And welcome me and embarrass me to the absolute limit. So it was kind of a mixed feeling. And I remember Marilyn Fayette, her father was running for United States Senator that year. And Marilyn and I were in the same class for one of the classes that we had. I can't remember which one. But it was an older nun and she was very, very nice. But I don't think, I'm sure that neither Marilyn and I went to school the day after that November election. And I remember coming into the class and Sister Bindig had written on the board, condolences to the Fayette. So another kind of embarrassment. Oh, brother. Now, your dad and the family's Democrat in the 50s, that was almost an impossible task to win an election. I think he was a nervous wreck because the recount didn't happen until January. And it happened in the second floor of the House committee rooms. And so no one knew who was Governor of Vermont until that recount happened. Wow. And it was kind of a telling story because some of the clerks brought the ballots up to Montpelier for the recount. And some ballots were destroyed by rats. Oh, no. You know, moisture on them. And so it was kind of a lesson to take and say, you know, we must do a little bit better. I mean, Donald Trump would have loved having this happen. Oh, my. It was that close, Joey. He, in the end result, I think on election night, he was behind by 1,200 votes. And after the recount, he lost by 719 votes. Whoa, no kidding. Yeah, so it was it was really exciting. And he just thought he he missed a bullet. Yeah. Wow. And then, you know, four years later, Phil Hoff became our first elected Democratic governor. Oh, so this was a signal that things were changing. Absolutely. Wow. Wow. So you grew up in a political home where very much so. Yeah. What was that like? Well, you know, I don't I don't think we ever had any of the Kennedy-esque table conversations. But, you know, election day was like a holiday at our house. What I had with Prospect Street was often the Ward 1 Democratic headquarters. And, you know, you worked to pull out votes and drive people to the polls. And, you know, the absent ballot thing was really a sick ballot back then, if I remember correctly. Yes, that's right. And so you really had to promote people to get out, pick them up, bring them home. And I can remember doing that for several elections and having so many women say to me, oh, I don't vote. My husband votes for me. And I remember as a 15, 16-year-old kid that there's something wrong with this picture. Wow. That's amazing. Yeah, it was it was a very interesting people and interesting times. It was good. It was good. Did you run for any office while in high school? I did not. I don't know. I don't think I did. No, I was never a class officer or anything. I don't know. Yeah. Okay. No, just curious. And I was not a cheerleader either. Okay. Did you enjoy high school? Was it? I did enjoy it. I think I was saying to people last night, I think my problem was I had my own personal curriculum and it didn't always match with the curriculum that the teacher in the room was trying to teach me. I loved reading. I loved reading history. And I think that too came from my mother. She always would buy these. There were two different books she would buy. The landmark book, which was a biography of some great American hero or leader or whatever. And then there was a Catholic version of that. And it told lives of the great saints that we shouldn't have ourselves. But I think I read all the Bobsi twins and I loved reading. It was wonderful. So what happened after high school? Well, I went to Massachusetts to a Catholic college there. It was Merrimack College, which is run by the same priest that run Villanova. And I think I needed to a change. So I went there for two years and then it was kind of rural and I decided I didn't want it. So I came back to Vermont. And I went to see the admissions chair at the University of Vermont, where I intended to transfer to. But he told me that he could not take my philosophy or my theology credits because they were Catholic. And so as I started to do the math about getting credits, I thought that would add a whole nother semester on my college career. And I didn't think my father would approve of that. So I ended up going to see Sister Patrick, who you probably know as Sister Elizabeth Candon at Trinity. And she welcomed me and my philosophy and my theology credits. So I lived at home during that time because I was so fearful of trying to live at Trinity because the sisters are quite strict and they had very strict curfews. And I thought, oh, I would be setting myself up for trouble because I'd probably get thrown out of my ear. And that would be an awful blow to my parents. So I made a lot of wonderful friends at Trinity and at UVM and had a great time of being a day hop going to school. Uh-huh. That's great. What was your major? I majored in history and minored in English. Okay. Yep. So it was a really great experience. I'm still in touch with a lot of my friends from Trinity together once or twice a year. Was Maureen McNeill a contemporary of yours? Well, I suppose in spirit she was, which is younger than I. I'm the same age as Joe, although I have to correct that and say, Joe is at least a month older than I am. But they've lived on North Prospect Street. Their mother grew up across the street from my mother on Maple Street and their nana was a very close friend of my mother's. And my father and Joe were great friends. So we knew them forever. Yeah. Okay. Right. So you got your degree and then what? Well, a cousin of mine got married that summer and her uncle came up for the wedding and he was working for the city of Boston's welfare department. And that was before Massachusets went to a statewide welfare program and each town and city did their own. So he asked me if he knew I was going to go to Boston. I was starting to look around for jobs and everything. And he said, why don't you come see me and we'll get your job in the city's welfare department. So I did that. And it was, I was stationed at an office which was in the Grove Hall neighborhood of Dorchester. And it was very much a black neighborhood at that time with, you know, I had gone through the series of ethnic people going through that. And some of the, excuse me, some of the homes are just beautiful historic houses that had been cut up to apartments and everything. But it was just, it was a great message for me to, a lot of my clients had come to Boston almost and use the same words almost that Europeans came to the United States, you know, the roads were paved with gold. And several of them, you know, were children of sharecroppers in Boston and in the South. And they didn't have, they didn't have much and trying to get them into an education class or something, their lives were very, very impoverished. And I had, it was, I felt sort of condescending sometimes because if a client needed a living room set or a bed or something, they came to me a 21 year old and I had become a furniture appraiser. And then I had to say, okay, tell the story of what are my favorite clients. Her name was Mary. And she came in and said she needed a new bed and she had, and so I went to her home the bed was fairly old and kind of the mattress wasn't as fresh as it could be. So I said, okay, so she went out and found a couple of estimates. But she was bringing in estimates for a double bed. And I knew my supervisor would never okay a double bed for a single woman. She had four kids and she was a terrific lady. But so I had to refuse her the voucher for the single bed. And then all of a sudden Mary kept coming in for, she'd come in every day. And out of the fourth floor, I'd have to go downstairs and she would say to me, Ms. Letty, I fell out of bed four times last night. You're going to kill me. And that would go on for several weeks. And I would try to explain, I'm so sorry, Mary. I'll be down to see you and see your bed. Anyway, all of a sudden she was coming in for grocery orders, emergency grocery orders. And I finally had to say to her, you got yourself a new bed, didn't you, Mary? And she had, and she said, I couldn't keep risking my life at midnight. Interesting. So I worked with her for the next couple of months to pay off the bed. So she could make her budget work again. It was a very interesting job, especially for a white young woman from Vermont. And I really admired so many of my clients. They were hard workers and they had resilience that I knew. It opened up a whole different world to you from coming from Vermont. And I think, I was in Boston when Martin Luther King was assassinated. And I went to work the next morning and the supervisor came to all of us Caucasians and said, you need to leave the area now. You're not safe here. And that was, I remember just walking through the parking lot sobbing because I felt such a loss for Martin Luther King's death. But to think that we were in that place where he was killed by a white man. It was another very telling story. So it was an interesting time in Boston. Yeah. And I was thinking you were there during the country was in a big turmoil. I mean, that's not too long yet. The Kennedy assassinations and all is a really tumultuous. Yeah. Yeah. Terrible times. Yeah. Yeah. So, and you came back to Vermont. Obviously. I came back. Tom went to law school. And that's your husband. Yes. And I was amazed. And he did it by attending law school at night because he took his job during the day. And we started a family. And after law school, and it was such a wonderful time that he and I don't know how he ever accomplished it. But he's announced he's going to take the Vermont bar. And I thought, really, I couldn't believe it because he was he was a first generation Irish at both his parents were from Ireland. And, you know, he had known that community for a long time and was fond of it and everything. But he came up and he clerked for Tom Kenny, who had actually bought my father's law practice. And he took the bar and then he opened up his own shop on College Street. And he did a lot of pro bono work and he did a lot of, you know, legal defense work for folks that oftentimes, you know, again, he we always thought he was like my mother. They scratched something on his bushes or something to know that he could probably get some service and a good deal from this guy. So, yeah, he would he would be hard. Yeah. Yeah. Both sides of the family, big hearts. Yeah. Yeah, he was quite something. And I have met tenants of his that lived upstairs in the office building and how how much they liked him and admired him, you know, and he wants it when I was working for adult learning. I taught English as a second language for a while and I worked with a number of Vietnamese folks and this one woman was she had an extraordinary story, but she was going to she was going to have to move to South Carolina because her daughter that she lived with got a great opportunity down there. So there's just going to be this one daughter who was finishing school. And so I asked Tom if she could he would rent to her and he said, oh, yes. And so then he'd come home every night and she was a fabulous Vietnamese cook, but that sometimes the food that the Vietnamese use can stay be a little bit pungent for a while. I love lawn, but I don't know if I can take another cooking session. He would eat anything she made for him. Yeah, of course. No, there were there were some wonderful times there. That's great. Yeah. How many children do you did you? We ended up having six children. I have five daughters and one son. Okay. And he was number five, I think. No kid. No, he was number he was number four. Number four. Yeah, so he had he had he was in the middle of all these girls. And when TJ was running for state's attorney, I think the first time and he was had some sort of a house party and, you know, he was tried to sell the public on the fact that because of his sisters, he was so into women's issues. And of course, they were standing right behind going, what a dope. We're not going to buy that one. But I think it could be of work for some people. That's a great that's a great story. So TJ carried on the political side of I mean, and I want to we'll talk about your years in the House of Representatives too. Did any of your daughters get involved in politics? No, my sister got involved in Nevada. She became she was a judge out there and she was an elected position. One of my nephews went out and helped her on that campaign. But so far, nobody. Brother Jim was a senator, you know, that's right. And we served we served together for a while over in Montpelier, which was a really a wonderful opportunity. And he Jim and I know Jim well and he he could really public speaking was a gift that he had for sure. And very impressive senator, very impressive man. Yeah, and I was at UVM last night and I wanted to tell the story that telling people how much UVM had meant to me over the years. And and one of the things that I kind of forgot to say was that both my brother Jim and my son TJ attended speech pathology at UVM. Jimmy had a stutter and he would go to the speech pathologist again. I think it was in Fleming Museum. And then TJ would say things like Jack and one of his sisters would interpret. TJ would like his jacket now so he can go out and play. And I remember so TJ would go weekly also to this wonderful woman at speech pathology at UVM. And I remember she taught me a wonderful lesson once because I kept to say, why do you think this happens? Why? Why does he do this? And she said, we don't ask why we just fix it. Oh, interesting. Kind of telling me to stay out of and stop spinning my wheels. And he too is, I think, a wonderful public speaker as well. Yes, he is. Oh my goodness, absolutely. I've heard many of his speeches and the audience just as riveted. My father was a great speaker. And I think he was good in court because of his ability to just speak when he was practicing law. And he read a lot. And I think one of his favorite books was Bartlett's book of quotations. She kind of stars with something in her book. So yeah. And my mother was a wonderful kitchen debater. No kidding. Yes, she could pound the table quite well to make a point. To make her point. Yes. And so Joey, talk about family a little bit. What does family mean to you? Well, I guess it means just about everything. I was the middle child in my family and classically had an older brother and older sister and a younger brother and a younger sister. I liked it because I sometimes get lost in that shuffle of being the younger brother. But you know, I think we grew up here in Burlington with a large extended family. We had lots of first cousins that we're very close to. And I remember one time at high school, Henry's diner was a great hangout for high school kids. North Frank Goldstein, he tried everything to get us out of there and he never was successful. But I remember more than one night I was sitting in a boat at Henry's and having some French fries and a Coke or whatever. And all of a sudden I realized, oh my God, I'm with all my cousins again. And but we just enjoyed each other. And we had an uncle, Father John Mahoney, who was incredibly generous to all of us. And he always, there was a party whenever Father John was there. He used to come in with a case of what he would call belly wash. It was just a case of a sorted sodas, you know. And no matter what your mother was saying, he'd say, go get another one. And he watched over us so much and he cared about us. And it was, he had been a chaplain with the Vermont Guard in the South Pacific. The letters that he wrote home were incredibly telling. And sometimes when we'd come for dinner at our house, we'd play cards afterwards. The game was, I think, I doubt it. And I've been meaning to look up the rules for it because I can't remember. But we would be playing around a hassack, you know, a footstool and everything. And I think he would tell some stories that would just be tragic of things that happened in the South Pacific, what happened to his Vermont boys. And the really difficult time that the Japanese gave, he was in a foxhole with another uncle who was a doctor with the Vermont Guard. And two Japanese soldiers ignited themselves and threw their bodies into this foxhole. Very good. And my uncle sort of had to physically pound out the flames. And, you know, those stories have stuck with me forever. Wow. Absolutely. And my sister, Anne Sharon, did a terrific job a few years ago by putting together, Father John would write to his father and mother or, and his father was the post office, the post, the postmaster. Yeah. Yeah. And so he would, he would take the letters and have somebody transcribe them and then make copies and send them to all the families. Wow. And so my sister, Anne, took the box of Father John's letters a few years back and put them together in chronological order and gave us all a book. And it was, it was just fabulous. And now my grandchildren are starting to look at those letters. And wow, stuff. That's wonderful. Amazing. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. He was, uh, he was really a hero. Oh, it sounds like it. Yeah. And he promised, he promised the Lord that should he bring these Vermonters back, that he build a church and name it for St. Jude, who was the pageant saint of hopeless cases. Right. And he came back and I think it was 46. He got the parish in Heinzburg and built the church and today is still St. Jude's. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. Oh my goodness. I had no idea. Yeah. Wow. And, and another great memory, we had a camp and Father John would come out and he would stand in that Lake Champlain for hours on end and let nieces and nephews climb up onto his shoulders to dive over. Wow. I mean, he was a huge patient. An incredible man. Wow. He did a lot. Yeah. Oh my goodness. So you've had a rich family life. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Hmm. That's wonderful. And now my children, um, are friends with some of their second cousins. Wow. And, uh, it continues on. It continues on. That's great. Now at some point you decided to be, to run for office yourself. Yes, I, I attribute that to the fact of turning 50. And, um, I decided whatever opportunity came my way, I was just going to say yes. And, um, so, um, it was this district that was really Ward six and Ward five. And the two incumbents were, um, my friends, Karen Lafayette and Mary Sullivan, and they both were leaving. And so they approached me and asked me if I would run and, um, see, as I adopted this, this attitude of yes to everything, I went, yeah, sure. And, um, so it was quite, uh, it was quite a primary race. Bill Keough was running, um, uh, this young brood, Nord brew, his daughter. Oh, yeah. He was a lovely young woman and very bright and lots of energy. And, um, I'm trying to think there was, oh, David Zuckerman's wife ran. Wow. So there, I think maybe four or five of us. And, uh, so I really, I did a lot of door knocking and a lot of, um, calling some cousins, maybe to do something. Yes. And just kind of a classic campaign. And, and, um, I was very, very happy to, to get elected. Wow. Then when you think of those years that you were in office, um, anything stand out as something you feel good about that you were able to accomplish? I think there's a couple of things that I think, first of all was, um, um, Speaker Gates, I mean to, um, appointed me to a, um, sort of a citizens committee on, silly unions and gay marriage. And, um, I was the house member on it and John Campbell was the Senate member. And then there was a number of just people's citizens and business. And, uh, Phil Hoff was on it as well. Wow. And so we traveled throughout the state of Vermont that summer into the fall. And, um, I, I would go to, I, we just listened. We didn't really interrogate or ask anybody anything. We just, and I took a lot of notes. And, um, so the following legislative session, we decided to take gay marriage up. And the house had never been so full. It was packed downstairs, upstairs, overflowing. And we didn't start the debate to probably 930 or so. And, um, so I was, I was going to be one of the speakers. And so I, I just struggled with what, how am I going to present this? And I found my notes. And what I did was I just read what people said, you know, Betty from Barry. Yeah. Yeah. Helen and Joan are afraid of retirement because they can't name their spouses, their, their legacy. And, you know, just talking about their two mothers, it was, it was, it was just amazing. And, uh, it was probably the most wonderful, wonderful night of my life. And I think that was the first time I knew that we were streaming. I had a neighbor who all of a sudden I knew he was down in Key West, Florida. And, but he, he texted me or somehow, whatever we, how we ever, we communicated back then. And, um, he had listened to me speak. Wow. In Key West, Florida. Wow. Oh my God. But that was probably the biggest thing. The second thing that I did was when I chaired education, we went, um, we, um, cut down the super supervisory unions and, um, made them bigger. And that was very controversial. You know, like, uh, North Bennington didn't want to be in a district with Bennington. Right. And, um, for years, um, I had friends from Bennington who'd tell me that they still had the, the target with my picture in the middle that they were. Oh my God. Different public places. And, um, so that was difficult because, um, you know, it was funny because when I would talk to people, I'd say, you know, um, Burlington, we have school districts that span different neighborhoods. Yep. And, um, it's not a big deal. Right. Uh, and what's the big deal of going to school with somebody down the road in Manchester? Yeah. But it was a difficult change, but I think it's worked out well. And, um, I feel very happy to have accomplished that as well. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Yeah, that, that, I think that those issues around the school districts lasted for a number of years until it's finally worked its way out. Right. Yeah. Right. Wow. Have you, uh, any awards that you've won over the years? Um, I, I, I have gotten a couple of awards. My husband, I, I think, you know, had a heart transplant. And, um, so I went after we came home from that. I sponsored an anatomical gift legislation. And, um, so the, um, I got an award from uh, that, that organization from New York state, because they were the first one to, to, um, uh, move that legislation forward and make it easier to, um, donate and, you know, to notify your family and whatever that you want it to be a donor and all that. So they gave me an award. And then I was very proud a few years ago, uh, in the midst of the pandemic, I got the, uh, I was notified that I was getting the lofty democratic, um, uh, trophy of the, um, Hoff Curtis thing. So that, that was absolutely lovely. Oh, that's wonderful. Absolutely. It was a, we were all at home and, um, it was on zoom. And I had two young democratic fellows who came over and, um, they set up my studio with a floor table and meaningful pictures in the back and fed me notes and drank all my beer. But it was a great privilege, great privilege. Absolutely. That's wonderful. Have we missed parts of your life that you'd like to let the audience know about? Well, I suppose we have, but I'm not quite sure. I have some notes here, but, um, uh, I think we've covered a lot of it. Gary, um, um, you, I, I, um, I don't really, I can't find it. Let me ask you this question. So when you think about your life and you think about people who might be listening to it, are there any pieces of wisdom you'd like to share, things that you've used in your life that help guide you through the ups and downs? Um, well, I think keep on going is one of the things I, I have not mentioned that, Tom had a heart attack and he's 42. And then, um, years later, probably six, seven years later, we went to Ireland because, uh, my nephew and my daughter were all running the marathon in Dublin. And, um, Tom got sick over there and, um, the Irish thought he had a bad cold. And of course he was having congestive heart failure. And, uh, so we, we flew back and then drive up from Boston and, um, um, he was exhausted, but we, he agreed to go to the hospital the next morning. So he's in the hospital for about a week and, um, um, all of a sudden one of the doctors, who was a cousin of mine, Chris Tarian, asked me for my insurance and talked about some IV medicine or something that he wanted to check out. And in fact, what he was doing was calling Pittsburgh to a fellow cardiologist that he had become friends with and arranging Tom to go down for a heart transplant. Okay. Wow. So we, on November 8th of 2000, I think, we flew out of, um, Burlington airport in this little plane and when the hospital from Pittsburgh had set it up here to get Tom and the crew came to the hospital and I had said to my daughter, Hannah, who was a nurse, why don't you go down with dad because he had become very dependent on her knowledge and skills. And, um, so one of the crew said, Oh, you can go, we can fit you in. And he said, how much do you weigh? And I lied. I thought over the Adirondacks. But that started a, um, quite a significant journey in our family life. Tom was in ICU for a few days and then he was there and they were actively looking for a heart for him. And that was, that was difficult for him on an emotional basis to think someone had to die for him to live. But, you know, when you, when you're faced with those things, everything was doable, you know, my daughter, Hannah was offered a job at the hospital. So she was going to move down there. And another daughter who's out in the West Coast, she was going to come down. I even put a down payment on an apartment for them, which was in one of the few flat parts of Pittsburgh and it was near library and there was a coffee shop there. So Tom could, he was on a heart pump at this time. And, um, but he could walk to these places. So I thought this would be ideal. But it turned out that they never moved from there because that Christmas night, I flew home because, um, to be with the kids and, um, for Christmas and, uh, I had celebrated Christmas Eve with Tom in the hospital. And, um, I was getting ready to put some gifts out under the tree that I had had, you know, had bought and stashed away. And, um, Tom called and, uh, it was about 10 o'clock in the morning and he said, they found a heart. I'm going into surgery and he was all alone. Wow. And, uh, one of my daughters, um, her dad had, um, had, she knew that he had remarried and, um, he was in Pittsburgh, outside of Pittsburgh. So we were able to call him. He was just, he had been a wonderful friend to us. But he went and sat with Tom all day to be with him. Wow. Um, I flew down with a couple of my children and, um, he was in surgery. So we, we didn't see him till after that. Wow. So this is Christmas day. It was Christmas day. And I was, I was kind of nervous about it. And yet, um, I couldn't believe it. When I saw him, he looked better after that surgery than he had, you know, when they put the pump in and everything. So he had five wonderful years with a heart transplant. And, um, as I said, you know, they, they don't tell you much about who, who was the donor. Right. And, uh, but I know that, um, Tom is very grateful and very sensitive again to the fact that, you know, he, he benefited by somebody's death. Yes. Absolutely. Wow. Yeah. So that whole notion of keep going is, uh, certainly. Yeah. They just keep going. And, um, you know, I bet it just been blessed with so many opportunities and so many friends and, uh, it's been, um, it's been a very rich life that I've had. I feel very grateful. Anything that you would still like to accomplish? Well, you know, I was talking to somebody last night, there was a period of my time where I wanted to learn how to fly. And, um, now I realize, I don't think I wanted to do that anymore. I love traveling. I would, I would still love to, um, uh, go to some places that I've not been to. Um, I'd love to go to, um, South America and I'd love to go to some parts of Africa. And, um, I have a granddaughter now studying at the University of London, and I'm not sure when she's going to get home. But I had thought of maybe going over there and visiting her, but I haven't yet, I haven't yet been able to figure that out. And it's becoming so beautiful here. I hate to leave here. It's the time of the year. It's, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's been wonderful interviewing you and spending time with you here. Um, I think we're probably getting close to the end of the interview. Um, if anything, last words you'd like to say? Well, maybe I'll stop in the ear house. You only live three houses down from my daughter here. Exactly. Please do. Very lovely neighborhood. It's a, I love it. I feel very fortunate to have found a home here. Yeah. It's just a great place. Ann is terrific. Great neighbor. Yeah, she is. She is. She's a big heart. Yep. Sure does. Well, this was fun, Gary. Well, thank you for your time. Thank you for allowing us to celebrate your life. And I did not even get a chance to talk about the day that I had to take the bully of the neighborhood on because he was taking my friend Mary's bike away. Oh my goodness. Oh, God. Please do. Tell us the story. Tell us. Well, no, we're just, we're coming home and Mary, my father broke his collarbone on a bike once. We were never ever supposed to go near a bike. And because of that, I almost killed myself whenever I was riding a bike and I see his car come up, you know, go through bushes, cliffs or, but Mary was, I was riding in the back of Mary's bike. And this, this young man who in hindsight, I recognize what a troubled young fellow he was, you know, but he started to try, you know, trying to get Mary off the bike and trying to take it and just, you know, kind of doing some of his bullying act. And I finally got up and I just let him have it. He was so incredibly stunned. He had no response whatsoever. And I often think that over the years, I think he learned to respect me because I did slug him so hard. So exactly. He stood up to him. Absolutely. Good for you. Good for you. Justice. Well, thank you. It has gone by very quickly. Yeah, thank you.