 Next question is from Coach Carruthers. Stuart McGill has talked about breathing mechanics being an important step indicator of back health. How would you incorporate breathing into training? Breathing is extremely important if you don't breathe a die, no, I'm joking aside. Well, this is to your point that you were just making up about your TVA, right? I mean, the transverse abdominis is, and part of that is the diaphragm and what is it, 28 other muscles that surround the spine and support that. And so your ability to control your breathing and to draw that in is your internal weight belt. Yeah, how you breathe is very important when you are exerting maximal force especially. So like Olympic weight lifters, for example, practice something called the vasalva maneuver. This is actually an important part of them generating power. And essentially what it is is they breathe in deep, they get a full diaphragmatic breath down into their belly, then they hold that breath and they brace everything around that air in their lungs and in their, with their diaphragm and that produces a lot of stability. So proper breathing with heavy lifting is definitely important to stabilize and strengthen the spine. As far as regular lifting is concerned, you know, I think when people overthink this sometimes you get problems because it's like, you know, if I'm training a client and I'm having them think about form and technique and watch your hips and look at your knees and make sure your feet are doing this and have good posture and then I throw into it, all right, I want you to breathe out here, breathe in here, it's like. Oh my God. Yeah, I gotta think about breathing now and now I don't know what the hell's going on. So usually when clients would ask me, what about breathing? I would say just breathe normally. Yeah. You know, just breathe normally and you're fine. I experienced the same thing because, and here's the thing with trainers, like we go to a lot of these, you know, certifications and we learn these new techniques and modalities, it gets us all excited and we wanna apply it to our clients like, you know, and that's something I had to learn too because we had Wim Hof here and I went through the course and was really excited about, you know, hyperoxygenation and like, let's work on these types of short breaths and get our body, get our lung capacity up and, you know, do diaphragmatic breathing and, you know, here's how I can weave this into the training session and, you know, it has its place for, in terms of calming the body down, calming the system down, like de-stressing and lots of benefits to it and there's no doubt that, you know, it works, but, you know, trying to weave that into now the training session, the exercise, it really convoluted everything, made everything really complicated and the clients would get really frustrated and so you just gotta consider, like, how much you really need to be conscious of and let these unconscious kind of take over. What I would do with clients and then you could try this yourself. When I would focus on breathing, that's all we were doing. I didn't combine it with lots of movement. So one way you can practice full diaphragmatic breath is to lay on your back, on the floor, you place one hand on your chest, one hand right on your belly button and then take a deep breath and what you wanna do is you want the hand that's on the belly button to rise first and rise fully before the chest, the hand on the chest moves. If you don't breathe this way, it's gonna feel weird and most of us don't, most of us breathe into our chest so when you take a deep breath, it all goes into the chest and the hand on the belly button doesn't move much. So what you do is you gotta slow down, focus on fully using your diaphragm, making the hand on the belly move first and fully before the chest hand does and what you'll find through this full diaphragmatic breath is it causes you to really chill and relax and in fact, I actually have had this happen at least five times where I'll take a client, super stressed out, everything's going crazy or whatever and then I'll say, okay, we're gonna spend 10 minutes on diaphragmatic breathing and I would take them into a room, kind of dark, they lay on the floor, I do this practice with them and at least five times I had clients start crying and it literally, they would sit there. It's really weird, I've had the same thing. The same thing, all of a sudden they start crying and the reason why I think they started crying is because they allowed their body to relax, process whatever stress or feelings they were having and it just came out in a motion and it was always kind of interesting and strange and then they felt better and then we work out but it's a great practice. I recommend diaphragmatic breathing before sleep. I think to like the real value of it is when you get a new client and you're going through the assessment process, you're trying to really teach them how to understand their body even further and you're going through posture, you're going through all these types of assessments but this is one of those things like, too, if they can learn that from the very beginning, they get an understanding of when to apply that when they're overstressed and all these things. It's a great teaching tool and it's something that's very valuable but you got to learn when and how to use it. I found it extremely valuable to do it just like what you said, Justin. During my assessment or the first week I was training a client, doing things like box breathing or the draw and maneuver and getting them to understand how to activate, draw on their TVA and tighten their core up, once you've done a good job, like I remember I had clients, each one's going to be different, right? But the ones that were really good, I could be in the middle of working out and I could say, activate your core. I could tell them that because I already did the training early on and so I could incorporate it into training once you do that. So if you do it at the very beginning to get them to understand what it is you're asking them to do when you say draw in or activate your TVA and they're like, okay, you do that draw and maneuver type of exercise, they get it, they get the concept now, they understand why you're having them do that to support the spine. Then when you're doing a bent over row or a seated row or you're doing an extra, getting ready to squat and you say, yeah, before we go into the squat, activate that core, they'll know what you mean because you've done the prerequisites. And then the other place I think I probably use it the most is, and I think Sal, you just said this, right? At nighttime, right? Getting them to calm down. So, and maybe that's because it, that's where it's added the most value for me. Like so I've mentioned on the show before that I have a really hard time settling my thoughts down at nighttime. And one of the things, and I remember this was after Justin went through Wim Hof and we were a lot of discussion was around breathing. I noticed that at nighttime, when my brain was going 100 miles an hour, I also noticed I was having these like short, like you, I wasn't aware of it because I was so into my thoughts, but I'd realized that the way I was kind of breathing was not normal and slow and controlled. And that's when I taught Katrina I had a box breathe and we would box breathe together. And then still to this day, she has this crazy weird ability to be able to tell what I'm thinking even when it's silent in the room. And all of a sudden she'll kind of elbow me and be like, let's breathe together. And then we'll do like five to 10 breaths. And then I can literally feel my heart rate like completely settled down. And then I can get into my sleep. Otherwise I'll be racing all night. Yeah, you know who naturally belly breathes or watch little kids? Little kids don't, they haven't learned yet that chest breathing or whatever. And you'll watch them play and run around and when they stop, you'll see them fully breathe into their belly. Whereas when we're all stressed out, we're like all on our chest. We're just trying to keep it in. Now breathing is really important. It's also a pattern, just like any muscle recruitment pattern. If you get stuck in a pattern, you can get stuck breathing only one particular way. And some forms of breathing are great for helping you in a stressful situation. And others are great for helping your body relax. And if you get stuck in one, and it's typically the stressed out breathing, you are literally sending a signal to your body that says you're stressed. And even if you're not, just by breathing that way, your body thinks. Haven't they connected that to anxiety? Absolutely. Yeah, they've connected, I mean, a lot of people that are really, really anxious, this is like one of the best things you do. So if you have a client, so this is what makes good trainers, right? This is where you adjust programming. Client comes in, Adam, I want to lose 30 pounds. I want to, that's like the main, that's the only thing they're telling you about. You're going through training. Then you find out like this person is just completely drowning in anxiety all the time. And then now a whole workout routine could be all about that. Totally. And that could be life changing for that person to get them to understand that, hey, when you have these moments of anxiousness and feeling anxiety, stop what the fuck you're doing and do these exercises I'm teaching you right now. It could be life changing for someone. So that's an example of where this now would completely supersede whatever program I had going on because that's such a big deal in their life. Gotta bring your body back to homeostasis first. Totally. Look, mind pump is recorded on video and audio. So if you want to watch us and not just listen to us, go to YouTube. Also in this episode, we mentioned a couple bundles. Bundles are where we combine multiple maps, programs for specific goals. I talked about the Fit Mom Bundle. Adam mentioned the RGB bundle. You can find both of those bundles at mapsfitnessproducts.com. Go check those out. Also,