 Welcome back and it's time for our first heart topic. Mining used to be a big deal in Nigeria before we discovered oil, the black gold, in 1956. Well, upon the discovery of oil, Nigeria abandoned not just mining but also agriculture and now about 90% of our foreign exchange revenue comes from oil, the black gold. An ugly trend that the new Minister of Solid Minerals Development, Dr. Delia Lake clearly wants to reverse by targeting 50% GDP contribution from the extractive industry and giving an ultimatum to illegal miners. Well, Mr. Bolajon Logiade, Public Policy Analyst, Lagos State, is my guest as we take a look at this morning. Good morning, Mr. Logiade. Good morning to you. Good morning. Nice to be on the program. Great to have you join us again. Good morning. Nice to be here. Great to have you. Mr. Delia Lake revealed his seven point agenda a few days ago and it includes comprehensive review of all mining licenses, surveillance task force and mines, please, among others. You listen to him as you address the press. A right in the step direction, would you say? Very much so. I guess we're waking up gradually to some of this issue. We have been too much focused on oil and gas for a long time, if not much of gas, but predominantly the crude oil. Meanwhile, all these other, the solid minerals are there, but they don't receive the right level of attention. So because we have not focused attention on it, a lot of people have abused that space. Foreigners have come in and plundered, you know, they've come in and they've plundered solid minerals and they've thrown us into environmental disasters across the length and breadth of this country. All sorts of risks we have been exposed to without making money. Most of the money we're going into private pockets. Well, his gut is what cut out for him, considering the collaboration between politically connected Nigerians and these foreigners. You've talked about 17 Chinese men were arrested in Oshun State in May of 2020 for illegal mining. Some states in Nigeria, some of the newest warning governors have also banned mining activities in states like Eboni, Oshun, Enugu, Khrushcheva, Tareba, etc. Well, the miners' association of Nigeria are kicking against the ban on mining activities by some of these states claiming it's illegal for them to do that. So Delia Leca has got his work cut out for him. Chuck Astru, what you think he may have to do to be able to muzzle through and give us what we need from that ministry? Hello, Mr. Alojade. Okay, the right response is actually not to ban mining. Hello. Yeah, go ahead please. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay. The right response is actually not to ban mining. But if we do, like some states are doing, it should just be a temporary measure while we articulate how exactly we intend to approach the issues of mining. It has been a largely unstructured space. Foreigners will come. They partner with a few high, high-amity in the society, including some of our political leaders. And then they take all these gemstones and share the profit with nothing to the people. So one of the things that need to happen is that we need to, number one, harmonize the policies at the state level with the federal. So, yeah, the laws are clear. What is the role of the Paragoman and what is the role of the state, as well as the communities where some of these gemstones are. So we need to be able to articulate the policies so that we are speaking with one voice. And we are not confusing the mining market about the opportunities that exist. Then once we have articulated our policies properly, then we can structure that space and ensure that the concessions follow the law. If the laws around the concession of mining is not robust enough, we need to step into that space and make it more robust and implement those policies and laws as stated so that the resources that belongs to Nigeria will be to the benefit of Nigeria and while we mine these resources, we will also articulate the environmental issues. It is not enough to just want to take from the environment. We must preserve and protect the environment as well as deal with security issues that have been associated with a lot of mining sites in Nigeria. Okay, well, this has also brought to the fore the issues of land use act. You find that in the south, the oil belongs to the federal government. I mean individuals who mine, who have refineries, are treated in the way that... You've seen all that's been playing out, which has led to people from the south saying there is such imbalance. You know, if in the north, the resources there are left for individuals as it were, as we've seen, which has given bread to a lot of illegal mining. Why is it that in the south, people are easily clamped down? I don't think that the laws are discriminatory, south versus north, because mining is also taking place in the south. Well, and don't forget, we have the federal ministry that you pay to mine. It's at the federal level. So that is to show that the federal government still has a control over mining activities with a handshake with the state and the communities where these resources exist. So what we have not done, in my opinion, is that we have not put a focus on it unlike the oil and gas space where all our emphasis has been for decades. When we exited all those mines and the coal mines some 50 years ago, and we have discovered oil, we just let all those mining affairs and focus on oil. Oil was good. We were able to make a lot of money from oil and nobody cared about mining. It is now that oil is becoming a challenge. Oil being about 90% of our foreign exchange earnings, oil being dependent on so many factors, it is now that we are beginning to wake up to pay attention to mining. So I don't think it's an issue of discrimination. I think it's more of an issue of we've been used to oil for 50 years. Now, because oil is absolutely no longer enough and it is also a dying resource, we are beginning to now pay attention to solid minerals. So we should focus on it and make it work for us just like we have focused on oil for so long and made oil to work for us. For a very long time, Nigerians have cried about the illegal mining activities in some of the states and wondered why some states' governors appeared to have turned the other side, looked the other way while these illegal miners went on and had a few days and also looked at the cheap labor, the cheap labor that these illegal miners were able to have in those states. What do you think that the NLC, because I think we should bring in NLC here, should be doing with regards to the people that are used or have been used in these sites, these illegal sites across the states who have been unjustly used if I could put it that way? I'm not so sure that NLC has delivered in court. I don't think they are able to deal with this matter. The way things happen in those mining areas, a lot of insecurity issues are involved. There are not places that you just jump into because you said you are lipo. Are you joking with your life? These are people who come to mining sites with military and police and security present. Private security and public security into those particulars. They have a concession and the concession is from the government. It goes way beyond what labor can handle for now. Of course, because labor is involved, workers are involved, I believe labor by the side is supposed to start to agitate. But the nature of those mining sites, as it were today, does not exactly lend itself to what labor can readily intervene in. Number one, the communities themselves are involved. The communities where those resources are are involved at the level of the tiny amount, what are called peanuts, that are handed over to this community. We are talking of poverty. People who have never owned 100,000 naira of their own at the time having a million drop on their laps, they take the more million and then they collaborate or they more or less support what is going on. I've seen instances in which miners come to a village and offer the village a new palace and look, we'll build you a befitting palace. This one you are living in, it's not good for you. And they did that kind of a traditional ruler does not understand what he's giving away for peanuts. So the community are involved on one side. Political leadership is involved. We have spoken about certain states where it seems as if the governor looked the other way. Why do you think the governor in those things are looking the other way? It is because these are also the elite or members of the elite that are involved in these illegal activities. So the man is not going to pay attention because he himself is involved. That is why the current direction is so much welcome. It doesn't have to be attacking in nature. We can call in all the stakeholders have the right level of discussion and articulate the policies to make these resources beneficial to the Nigerian people. Well, the miners association of Nigeria what do you think should be done about their cry, their outcry against the banning of these some of the sites across some of the states where legal mining has been taking place. They have quoted some laws, some aspects of the law as they kick against it. They are a critical stakeholder. So when I speak about engagement they also have to be in the mix of all those engagement. Most of the mining activities that are going on in the country are largely unstructured. People are privileged so they've got some concession, they go into communities and plunder the community, giving people pay not, don't care about the environmental issues. That cannot continue and the miners association within itself will also begin some sort of self-regulation before or as part of the entire gamut of reinventing that particular space. There must be a regulator monitoring is critical. What are these miners doing in the mining site? How are they treating the environment? How are they treating the environment? While the regulation from the government is critical, the issue of self-regulation from the miners themselves or the miners association is also very important so that the miners association on one side are self-regulated and then there is regulation from the government so that we can have a same environment. The miners must consider some element of self-regulation. What we have right now in the mining site will embarrass anybody who loves the environment. It is horrible. So some element of self-regulation but self-regulation would not be enough. Government has to make sure that the regulatory environment must be stronger. It is part of this policy articulation that is devastated. When you take from the environment you must also be ready to go back to the environment. Protect that environment and ensure that it is not just you taking you also give it back. The way the workers are being treated is horrible so government also has a role in that as well as the miners association. So when we talk about engagement that needs to happen those engagement must also involve the miners. They are a critical stakeholder that must reform their way in how they approach this resource mining as well as how they treat the environment and the people. The way the workers are being treated as you have just rightly alluded to is horrible which is why I had mentioned earlier they need to have the NLC look into this because not just these miners these workers who are working for these illegal miners and even the illegal miners being treated shabbily you find that oftentimes some Lebanese and Chinese corporations come into this country and treat their Nigerian workers shabbily in the most dehumanizing way possible and they keep getting away with it and I wonder what is Labour doing right from my days as a youth copper in Port Harcourt. I've heard such stories and it's continuing all to today. Yeah, like I said Labour must play its part but I also understand for example we let NLC walk into the good minds of Zampara to go and carry out say a picket where there are bandits left and right where there are guns firing and aircraft all over the whole place. It is most unlikely that that would happen. But it could go with the police the monitoring police they could go with the monitoring police and the surveillance task force and the minds police which have been set up I understand we already had them before so perhaps this is a kind of reinforcement that the new minister is talking about so if Labour was interested in doing anything about it they could go with that monitoring task force and the minds police force. You see I still prefer that the strengthening comes from the government the power of our security the miners side themselves are heavily policed sometimes with military people and private security operators that the miners themselves are hired to come into that space so the the true way that can be effective in my opinion is that the government in its might which is what I think the current minister in charge is trying to to try because all these things that you were talking about have been there so the question is why has it not worked but if government at the centre have decided to put a renewed focus on it and the minister is serious about implementing what he has said the way he has said it things will begin to change things will begin to change everybody will know that there is a new sheriff and that all the nonsense and shenanigans of the past will not be allowed it is on the wing of such situation that you can see the NLC become effective and rise up to their own responsibility and the expectation that we have of them. Issues of safety are the mind for example it's a very serious matter people are dying in the mind they do collapse and kill people but in the course of oppression and even in the abandoned minds who is paying attention to that labour must do its part but if labour is going to be effective, government like the current minister is trying to do we need to step in right there powerfully and possibly come there while wielding a stick and make sure that the laws are obeyed anybody who disobeys is punished accordingly it is very important that we do that and that create the right environment for even NLC to begin to step into the position you know as we talk about this I am reminded of the blood diamond and if we are going to move forward would you suggest that some who have if not all who have enjoyed the wealth of this illegal mining who have made billions of dollars from this illegal mining would you suggest that this new minister goes after them to get them to account and also for the damage that they cost to the environment the illegal mining and then justice meted out to the Nigerians working for them it would have been nice but I am not so confident that something like that will happen and the reason is that the issues around the environmental issues surrounding mining activities is not peculiar to to solid mineral we have seen it in the oil and gas space for decades and the question I ask is how have we been able to deal with environmental issues in the creeks in the creeks of Nigeria in the Niger Delta how have we been able to hold people to account including multinationals who have plundered this environment and left them in disastrous situations there are local companies too who have done the same thing in the same Niger Delta how many of them have been able to hold to account I remember vividly what Obama did with a massive spillage by mobile during his turn as president mobile almost left that environment by virtue of the kind of punishment that was meted out to them in Nigeria we are yet to see that so will it now happen in the case of solid minerals fingers crossed I am not particularly hopeful that it will happen but if it happens I actually look forward to being disappointed when it starts to happen solidly I also say that the 30 day ultimatum given by the minister to the illegal miners is way too lenient do you share that opinion I didn't hear that I said there is a school of thought that 30 days given to illegal miners by the new minister is way too lenient that he should have just gone right in immediately immediately may also not work out there are equipment all over the place the mining equipment are there there will also be certain discussions that need to happen so I think 30 days is okay you know but then 30 days also allows the government to prepare its own roll out the monitoring team that will go out and enforce the illegal you know the law against the illegal activities you have to prep I mean you know that kind of a task force you have to prepare the resources for them to be able to do what they need to do you have to work with the security agencies to be able to enforce so it's not actually something that you can jump into and make happen in one week or two days 30 days is a very good notice get out of there if you're very illegal and if you're still there after 30 days then whatever you find you take it well thank you Mr Boulangho for your time on this very critical issue that we're taking a look at this morning thank you Mr Boulangho public policy analysts has joined us in Lagos to take a look at our first hot topic do stay with us we'll be right back