 So my name is Pia Copsson. I am president of NSWP and the co-founder of Rose Lyons the Swedish sex worker organization and I will try to give you a good overview what the Swedish model really is Because it's not exactly what the Swedish state is is saying it is So I will actually give you a bit of background also So you actually know where this comes from so you understand the bigger bigger sort of picture of it My colleague Karina is sitting there. She's gonna be a little sidekick today Yeah, I always have this in the beginning of every presentation because I think it's important to remember that those guys are Not sex workers very often the experts very often haven't even met the sex worker So I'm frankly sick and tired of them. So they are just in every presentation. I have so in in the mid in the 70s in Sweden In the midst of the sexual liberation kind of situation. They started to look at We particularly women we don't talk about male and trans people in Sweden women in sex work as victims and they wanted the investigation What was really going on? So this young academic went around and interviewed sex workers Some of them are still alive today and she was fairly good at what she was doing The scary thing is that the state had decided that the material was going to be reviewed by a psychoanalysis Analysis that had never met the women She read the interviews and concluded that they all have suppressed memories of child abuse sexual child abuse and that Became a truth in Sweden. She never met them. So the first report actually talked about the tragedy of these women's Childhoods written by a person who never met them Then they need they did another overview in 93 and The recommendations is the one you see they wanted to develop a national center for combating prostitution They wanted to criminalize both the buyer and seller and They wanted to make an extension of the pimping law to make sure we you know, there were no porn films and no striptease either They didn't succeed because there was a lot of criticism against the suggestion so then in the end of the 90s came the Suggestion that you know ended up being the law we have so there was no center to monitor what was going on There was also there should be a lot of money for social services That didn't happen. The only thing that happened was that a criminalized clients and Placed it on top of all the already existing abolitionist laws. I think it's important to remember that there were no laws taken away to protect us or that we were Decriminalized like they say we were not selling sex was not criminalized in Sweden before Not the act itself Right, so they just had a lot of abolitionist laws and I will go through them quickly and then place this on top of it So the law yeah, you know the law itself This is what it says the person for payment obtains the casual sex sexual relationship is penalized unless the action entails punishment in accordance with a penal code They had some problems with the law from the beginning because they had a problem with what is the sexual service? And they had to make up their mind that it was one person touching the other person's genitals Touching boobs. Yes peeing someone's face. Yes genitals no and then they were had a problem with this temporary thing because a lot of us have Regulars that we see for years, you know, we last merges. I had a client. He was married twice during our professional relationship Then they decided that when a sex worker have sex with someone every single time is is just you know It's counters, you know the first sort of and no, sorry, it's fine And then they also, you know payment so they you know, obviously money But they also wanted drugs in there and then they had to squeeze alcohol in there as well because alcohol is a drug in Sweden And then they got a bit confused. They were like an expensive gifts like first And there's a lot of sex worker here, you know, how many have received first is payment Right, I think they watched too many, you know bad American movies anyway, so they sorted that out and The purpose of the law was you know as a tool for equality Buying sex was considered men's violence against women male sex workers were totally miscibelized and If the focus was on women and it was the focus was on women working in the street What happened really really fast it was already happening from the 70s and 80s, but it was a big shift when the law was passed that if we Didn't have a lot of speaking rights before the law the law actually took it completely away from us Because the idea behind the law is that We are so damaged that we don't understand how damaged we are So if we say we're not damaged we say we actually are fine with this It's further proof of our damage. We are because we are suffering from false consciousness and can't even understand the damage So, you know and so that and a lot of other silencing techniques just you know came really really fast People someone like me. I obviously wasn't representative. Therefore. You don't have to listen to me Someone like my colleague Karina. She's so damaged. She doesn't have a clue No, apparently it takes us five years out of sex work before we understand how damaged we are I'm two and a half years now. So I'm waiting for so be ready for the change So and then they started they did some sort of research by the board of health and welfare and In in the last one they were called knowledge on prostitution in the last one It was actually quite ambitious academic because in the first one they didn't interview one sex worker in the second one to Three day up to aunt and interviewed one sex worker. So there was a 100% more But actually the third one that came they wanted to talk with sex workers And so she went to the the prostitution unit in Stockholm We have one unit in each big cities These are if you heard about the exit programs that Sweden say they have this is this is it So should you know, it's it's therapy and a cup of tea. That's the exit programs. There's nothing else And ask them can I can you put me in touch with informants because she really wanted to talk with sex? Workers and they said no, that's not necessary. We have a mandate to speak for them and The shores held didn't get my fucking mandate But anyway, and they also added that, you know, it would probably be so traumatic For sex workers anyway to be interviewed Without asking sex workers And From the beginning they it was you know, it talked a lot about drugs are fucked up childhoods at the sexual abuse And now just they have broadened that you know, they started to broaden it and talked about Fine, you know financial forces and economic for some like yeah, I think most people work because they have to right Maybe some rich people here. They don't have to you. Why do you work to pay the rent to do like we're all working? out of some financial reason During this time they started selling the Swedish model they went around especially in Europe It was called the Swedish road show everybody called the Swiss road show so the politicians went around for my fucking tax money by the way and I traveled afterwards they stayed in hotel I slept on lumpy sofa beds and I flew cheap planes they flew good planes But no one was really interesting interested in the law But then 2005 they moved the law from this law that is about women's peace What a rape lawyers and yeah men don't get raped either in Sweden. I saw you look Trans people don't exist. Anyway, so they moved the law and put it in the criminal law said and repacked it and said look This is a tool to combat trafficking Same law they changed nothing. They just moved it and suddenly countries were paying attention and Norway took to law among others Among others no really not among others because Iceland just banned everything So if they say Iceland have the Swedish model, it's not true They have banned making a live making money out of someone else nudity So they banned topless bars. They banned everything They also say Finland have taken the law Not true. They have criminalized the purchase of sex of trafficking victims if you know they are trafficking victims That's a different thing, but that's already sexual exploitation. So, you know Next one They will also tell you they have evaluated the law I guess they have a report to prove it. It's been highly criticized in Sweden. It's been very criticized in Sweden They did an English summary of it. They did they left out the good parts. I translated them for you. So it says The people still abused in prostitution. Okay, this is a translation. It's not my words The people still abused in prostitution says that the criminalization has increased the social stigma that comes with selling sex They described that they choose to prostitute themselves. Sorry about the spelling and does not experience being unwillingly subjected to anything Even though it's not illegal to sell sex they experience being chased by the police They experience being treated as minor as their actions are tolerated but not respected and And then further down on the same page It says when it comes to the people still abused in prostitution must the above mentioned negative effects of the prohibition that they described Rather be seen as positive seen from the perspective that the purpose of the law is to combat prostitution So they know They know this law stigmatizes us actually is the one thing we have consensus around in Sweden we say it The Evaluation say it the police say it is so beautiful interview with a police officer. She said yeah I know it's hard to hard to sell sex now with this law, but it's not supposed to be easy So basically what they are saying is to know your life is shits and I will have to quit Which is not very charming from any point of view The discrimination on boots one is we did I never give a shit about sex work actually did a very strong statement saying that this is totally Unacceptable as said said that they want to emphasize the the increased social stick My practice could mean fewer opportunities for health promotion and HIV prevention work a Perspective that is lacking in the investigation and they went on and on and they criticized them very harshly this document was buried Okay Me I mean the five people that I know that know most about the Swedish model I would be one of them. I stumbled upon this like a year ago. We never saw it at a time It was basically buried So with this evaluation Sweden went on another tour, but actually now they take they bring delegations to Sweden and and Sometimes sometimes I feel like there's a whole generation of brainwashed politicians, especially in Europe Because they don't ask for any evidence. They don't ask for numbers. They are just in their head They are like I'm gonna be elected again if I do this. They don't care. There's no proof This works. There's the numbers of street work went down just when the law was passed, but the internet boomed as well so and Actually now the numbers are back to where they were before the law, which is kind of surprising because we have snow seven months a year in Sweden and When it comes to indoor sex work, there's actually no proof at all that it has gone down rather the other way around But as they never cared they are throwing around numbers and we write them down because one week We are thousand in Stockholm and five hundred trafficking victims the next week We are fifteen hundred and ninety percent of trafficking victims. They just can't their numbers straight Carina did a little count on the amount of sex workers and the amount of clients and she Came up with the number that each sex worker in Stockholm would have to see 330 clients a month for the numbers to to fit so they don't know what they are doing actually Okay, so what happens in reality? That was the you know the history of the law So we have this expertise law, but I've done that but that's just one law and it affects us In some ways especially when it comes to stigma, but not as much in daily life But what I will say is that with the with the law criminalizing clients they hit the clients of street workers first Now they have moved on and are targeting indoor workers in Sweden You don't need a court order to kick someone's door in you actually just have to suspect a crime is happening So we have sex workers having their door kicked in But so what happens when the police comes and kick your door in though is interesting because we have three laws controlling You know how sex workers are allowed to live and work One is the rental law, which means that the landlord has the right to evict you if you sell sex in the apartment and Then we have the pimping laws that says the landlord has to evict you if you sell sex your apartment because otherwise He's a pimp and then we have the landlord that says you have lost your right to own your apartment if you sell sex in an apartment that you have bought there are also For sex workers there between 18 and 20 there are several laws that affect them because there are several laws the Swedish police and social services can use To take care of people for their own protection Which means you know locking them up in some kind of home or yeah We're also using the alias act to prevent migrant sex workers even migrant sex workers They have the right to travel to Sweden and worked in Sweden because Sex workers not considered work So they will we will get reports from people being stopped at the border simply for carrying too many condoms whatever that is We have been having cases in both Sweden and also in Norway Where sex workers are deported when they come come to complain about a crime So in Norway a few months ago three sex workers living in an apartment or in a hotel room Two guys came in and stabbed two of them there and robbed them and They called the police they went to the hospital and then they were locked up their passports taken away And then they were deported and one didn't even overstay Traditionally we also they also be using the public order act It's not enforced that this that much nowadays because they have so many tools to fight us But they also used the tax laws because we called the tax office and we say I want to register a company because you have to pay taxes on all income in Sweden and Then they say no you are not allowed to register and then they will hit you hard if you buy something So they don't even know what they're doing there But the problem then is if you manage to register a company and you go on sick leave You have to write sick leave if you pay taxes, but then they say no We are the money you're supposed to get is this the expected income and as your clients are criminalized. You're not supposed to have any So we paid we have a forced to pay taxes where we get actually nothing absolutely nothing for it And just a little bit on HIV prevention also because that was the worry of discrimination on bit's month So in the beginning it must be two Like ten years ago eleven years ago A colleague of mine that I knew since she was really young was founded an apartment in Gothenburg Three days after she died with under undiagnosed But it was pneumonia, but the result of being HIV positive. She wasn't she didn't no one knew and When the 27 year old girl dies alone in an apartment as a result of living with HIV in a high-income country Something is really really really wrong But the thing is the second we go and test ourselves And the result is positive We are out of a job Because we also have we also have this like you know non-disclosure So we have to tell everybody otherwise we are committing a criminal offence Well, they will land you in jail and people is top five country in sending people to jail for HIV related crimes in the world We do a lot of good things in Sweden. We also sterilize trans people up until two years ago Just Stockholm's first needle exchange to open a year ago. Just so you get the You know how fucked up this is And the attitude is basically this this is a nice quote from my friend Jay Levis research It's our national coordinator against trafficking in prostitution. And this is how he feels about HIV prevention They even more Worried about the concept of any kind of how you how you supposed to work safe Safety, you know so any safety guidelines will be viewed as you know promoting or keeping people in prostitution And also they have an idea that that would actually lure young women into selling sex because they would think it's safe So the three prostitution units again that we have in Stockholm Gothenburg and Malmö The only one handing out condoms and I want to say this is the only state funding Regular state funding going to any anything that has to do with sex work So only one of them the one in Malmö is handing out condoms the other two don't even though they are receiving HIV money But we were lucky enough three years ago to In partnership with HIV Sweden to get a project funding to do peer-to-peer HIV prevention and We man we really use that funding for everything we could so it was supposed to be this little simple exercise But we ended up doing a big report. We had 124 indoor workers answering a terribly long survey. I'm afraid to say and It turned out I need to get my bag because I have some numbers there 30% of sex workers is the sex workers that answer the survey get questioned on why they want an HIV test and 68% have never received a condom in their hand as part of HIV prevention ever and 57% don't feel they can tell That they are sex workers when they go and get tested Hence they won't get the test that they are needed and they can't ask the question that they need to ask And we also asked them tons of questions. We asked them what worries you Top answer was I worry about prejudice from authorities. I would say that's not very successful If their thought is are supposed to save you and then you know, yeah This doesn't look like so much we asked them have you ever been been discriminated and 30% said more than once But actually in a country where if we don't get kicked out of our apartments lose our kids or anything else would be really attacked by the social services one third of sex workers being discriminated against more than once is a lot because we don't tell anyone and Again back to the lovely prostitution units of our informants 82% had never been to one Which mean they never ever been to service provider for sex workers any kind of service provider 0% was very satisfied with the services provided There was also a stage report on the work of the prostitution unit in 2011 the Stockholm prostitution unit staffed by eight full-time Had 42 clients in a year. I don't think that's maximizing my my tax dollar, you know 82% of our respondents says they think the law creates more stigma 82% said yes, I totally agree the law creates more stigma and I want to leave a bit of room for questions. So I just want to talk a little bit about Jasmine. We showed the movie and The sad thing is that Jasmine is not the only one that lost her kids. There was another girl Seven years back and when the social services took her kids solely because she was a sex worker She knew this was a dead end alley and she committed suicide straight away actually When Jasmine died It was for us person. I mean she was a board member of Roselias She was like my extra daughter. She had a kid in my apartment. She you know and It's kind of weird standing here in the next day's conference looking at a picture with her from last day's conference And she was so excited and she said even if we don't have funding next time I pay for myself because I want to go to Australia and I'm here and Karina is here. She's not And Just means But the whole thing around Jasmine has not been resolved in Sweden when something happens like that and within the social service system The the the social services have a they have an obligation to report themselves to start a formal investigation More than one year has passed. It still hasn't happened the mother of Her ex-partner that murdered her get to see the kids her mother never met the kids because she didn't have a chance that she You know, she didn't get to see them herself So the authorities says that she doesn't have any connection with them. So her mother is not allowed to see them I just want to point out that, you know How you're however sad it is with Jasmine and it's the most well-known sort of Situation from Sweden, but it's one of many, you know, it's one of many we have one of our board members lives in lives in one of the big cities in Sweden and Her ex-girlfriend was charming enough to make sure the whole of her city knew That she was a sex worker was resulted in her being evicted not only that she had not very charming the whole Bti sort of group in that city throwing stones at her literally throwing stones at her and She has no friends left and you know, we bring her up to Stockholm so she can hang out with us But it's you know So Karina always says when she does the presentations that you know sex workers in Sweden are the loneliest people I know and it's really true because we can't afford to have friends We can't afford. I mean, I have two close friends in Sweden I have many friends abroad, but we can't we live in isolation because it's the only way we can protect ourselves Just wanted to end this with a happy picture. So this is from the pride parade in Stockholm People do get very upset with us being in the pride parade as well. They're like you're romanticizing prostitution We're like we're miserable like 353 days a year. Can we one day can we dance one day? Let us be happy one day It's been a challenge starting the organization in Sweden I'm surprised at how far we come Because we have pushed and pushed and now we are actually at every table Some of them very much thanks to the partnership with HIV Sweden because they were actually the first one They were brave enough to engage with us And on the other hand that project is running out So in December with me Karina unemployed and not very likely to get another job in Sweden. So I guess it's back to sex work, which is fine Okay, I'm gonna stop there. I could talk I can talk about this forever. I'm not gonna do that I rather if someone has questions that we have a little bit of time for that Hi, my name is Kimo from the European AIDS treatment group. First of all, thank you for a great presentation. It's Coming from the neighboring country Finland. It's always shocking to see how Bad the best countries in the world can actually be when it comes to stigma and discrimination and Criminalizing everything almost Anyway going to health promotion and HIV prevention What do you see are the Key issues at the moment when it comes to HIV prevention Among sex workers and how could example our Organization be part of that and help you to solve the problems Yeah, I I think We always say sex worker actually, you know, we we're best if we do our own prevention ourselves because it's actually more effective Never more true than in Sweden because there is actually absolutely no trust for anyone We ask sex workers. How do you want to receive information about safety and and and save sex and? Number one was from a web page number two was the sex worker organization number three was from colleagues The prostitution units didn't rate very well in that so it's really a matter of what needs to happen Are the only way we can get a functioning? Any kind of functioning HIV response in Sweden is really if We get funding I'm sorry, you know, I would let it do it in partnership with other But it's really, you know, it's really there's no trust at all people don't trust anything that is state-based And also there is a problem with when we are going to test our ourselves We need to lie and say that we have like slept with a man from Africa or something To get our HIV test So there is so many problems to solve. Yeah What I'm interested in is how drug criminalization and harm reduction criminalization Intersects with back door criminalization of sex work in Sweden. Oh good. I can talk about this forever as well First of all harm reduction shit in Sweden, you know It's the attitude is very much the same So if you give a condom to a sex worker, you're encouraging prostitution if you give a clean, you know Syringe to someone using drugs you're encouraging drug use bullshit. Anyway Especially in OST treatment. It's been really really some really really bad shit has happened because we have sex workers Who uses drugs in order to get method on they have to sign a contract and promise to stop selling sex Which is completely bizarre and And just in general in Sweden when it comes to any kind of any kind of OST It's it's you know, so if you have a given a blood blood sample one time you kicked out for six months before you let in again and And the same is true if you break the contract of not selling sex if you sell sex you also kicked after your treatment for six months Yeah, so it's the you know having the double stigma. It's not very useful. No, right So when Karina went into her treatment because we're both sex worker use drugs by the way, but maybe I should have said that anyway, yeah, it's just so many hats on and She would into treatment and at the time she was working in a strip club apart from doing some other sex work And they said everything would be fine if she stopped healing around a pole Ealing, you know like the eels. Yeah So that was the solution. She would immediately stop with drugs and alcohol. I was curious About you said that there were a couple of funded Sex worker organizations or organizations that were funded to do HIV prevention For sex workers, but only one of them was giving out condoms What does the other do so that's the it's the three prostitution units It's what will be What the Swedish state will tell is the exit programs, right? So they are local there from the local council, but it's state money And they're at the Stockholm unit, which is the biggest one They they say that their job is to get people out of sex work I have no we have started to raise this question I was Sweden and actually the people that distributing the HIV money because we pushed They are now forcing them to start to hand out condoms and they're gonna cry every time they have to hand out I'm some really I'm gonna go and film it fucking But that's what they do. They do therapy And apparently that they describe the therapy very well in their little Manual so the therapy is first of all that you talk about lack of boundaries childhood abuse is a very set agenda and Then you go there once a week same time same day every week and every semester it's evaluated So this is a long-term thing, you know Yeah, but that's what they do. That's all they do The one in Stockholm is attached to a health clinic that is from the from the health services The other two doesn't even have health clinics Yes, actually, there's one in Queensland in Australia. That is the same. It's funded by out of the communicable diseases unit for HIV prevention the only thing that it does is exit and prevent you know exit training Transition career transition work Yeah, and I think I think you know Everything I told you have to put it in a big context of Sweden has this Okay, I'm not gonna do the whole story But let me put it this way the first first center for race biology in the world. It was Sweden We sterilized people from the 30s into the 70s Many of them for being promiscuous Or from having some mental health issues We have a really long shameful history of social engineering and This when you look at sex workers and drug users and trans people It's so clear, you know, I mean, it's you know We have different kind of rights and then we will you know lacking some rights And it's not the same for all the three groups, but we it's really clear. We are unwanted You know, they don't want us there So it's like either become like us so you can die. That's really the feeling you get especially if you belong like both Mencarina both but our sex workers and drug users. It's like you really not wanted in society You really supposed just to decide to become like them Like the their idea of perfect the perfect person or you they don't care Because as soon as you do you say, you know, I this is not working for me I this is not this is not what I need. I need this instead. They're like you're treating me like you're five-year-old That's not appreciating a present. You're like, you should be grateful. This is a rich country. It's for free I'm like, yeah, but I don't want to be forced to do anything carry So Karina is since since they Stopped a you have to yield yielding around the pole. They realized she had has ADHD and she's on Ritalin And she has to go and give blood samples every month in seven years for Ritalin seven years Yeah, and they are threatening all the time to take it away You know the one thing she really needs to be able to go to a conference like this for example because it's you know No, we all need fucking Ritalin for this Yeah, right now Don't I know it? We often hear about the Swedish laws referred to as the Nordic model here. Have you talked about that already? I missed the very beginning but Yeah, no, I think again the Nordic model is something we should not use It's actually Sweden and Norway that has the law Low Norway took to law because there were a lot of complaints about a lot of black horse in the street in all on This it was really a migration tool There in Norway it is a different situation because there is much more awareness of the harms because the service providers Most of them, especially the main one in Oslo has been on board with us all the time and been fighting this law as hard As we have And I'm sad to say that a police in Norway. They didn't have to is in Sweden They had to sort of learn how to deal with this law But in Norway they came fully trained by the Swedish police. So they really escalated into human rights abuses much faster So in Norway they managed to Do a blacklist of sex workers for hotels now sex workers who ever been caught in a hotel will never be able to rent an hotel room in in Norway again and The Norwegian police also had an operation called operation homeless which sort of sounds like a good thing, right? But it was about raising awareness of people would say if sex workers were living in apartments and working there So they would be kicked out. So it was about making people homeless, which is a little bit different. I think Do you have any allies in Sweden that are working with you around this? As I said, we have been having a partnership now with HIV Sweden. We have a long-term Relationship with the LGBT movement and with us and specifically with the Swedish drug users union So when we started completely without any kind of money and we were just a small group of people The Swedish drug users union in Stockholm gave us a key to their office and said use it have your meetings there And you know, so which was lucky. So we have a long history together. So we do have allies Not that many and not any that can give us any money But anyway, all right, if it's no more questions, I'm gonna say, thank you And if you have any, you know want my contact details or Karina's contact details So ask anything, you know outside the microphone. Just come over. Okay. Thank you