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Hey, it's Lewis. Welcome to the podcast. Enjoy our conversations anytime, anywhere. Cool. Hey, folks, welcome to the podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Dane Ingeville, British businesswoman and former CEO of Lloyds of London. Inge, thanks for joining me. Good to see you again. Good to see you, even though it's over the airwaves this time and not in person. No, absolutely. Well, hopefully next time we'll be face to face sooner rather than later. I hope so. How's it all going? How are you finding working at home and all of that stuff? Well, for me, I moved into a time of my career where I'm portfolio director, as they call it. So I've got various non-executive directives and therefore a lot of the time in between physical board meetings or at least board meetings that used to be in person and they're now done virtually, I was usually working at home anyway. We had my home office set up. I was very used to using technology and while it is a big difference, it's much more different for me in my social life actually than my professional life because I don't be out all the time spending time with family, with friends, always going out to theater or enjoying a nice restaurant meal. So the bigger impact for me has actually been on the social side of my life rather than on the professional side. But I know that some people, of course, when you're used to going into the office all the time and I remember when I introduced homeworking and flexible working many years ago in the office, I would get a response from a lot of people saying there's no way I'm going to work from home, you know, I like to come into the office, I like to see everyone. Now for those people, this must be a real shock. Mathively. Do you think this will completely change the way people work or people just revert to like the good old ways they were working before? Well, some people will have learned new ways of working and I think they'll be relishing, they'll be really enjoying some aspects. When you work virtually like this, it does give you a lot more flexibility in your day. Yeah, that's true. And I think once people are used to the fact that actually I can be just as productive, maybe even more productive by not doing my hourly, two hourly commute every day and I can actually spend more time doing other things that I want, spend more time at home, it could change the way people approach remote working. I think particularly also for managers because there are some managers and leaders that think, oh gosh, if I can't see my employees in the office, I don't know that they're actually working. And I think when people, obviously it takes a little while to get used to this new way of working virtually, but a lot of people will see, gosh, my team are just as productive with thinking more creatively, perhaps thinking of new ways of working and then they'll see the benefits of it. I think one of the key things that I've always found though is when you want to be most creative, you've got to get people talking to each other. When people are too on their own all the time, not necessarily do the great ideas come along. It's almost as though when you have two people talking about something, a third mastermind appears, where suddenly you come up with the most amazing idea because you've sparked off each other. And I think that's one thing that's key to get right with this way of working is to encourage still that conversation, whatever means it's, whatever medium it's taking place over. Basically to make sure you encourage that. But then you can see that your teams are still performing. I think it could really revolutionize how managers think of teams and how productive they are. Yeah, people will be much more open to having a virtual team and being able to, you know, different people want to work differently. There's no one size fits all. So long as people are open to other people's ways of working, I think that would be awesome. Interestingly, the more people I speak to right now, a lot of people, it's affecting their mental health a lot, being kind of stuck at home. And so it'll be interesting to see how many people can and are more productive at home versus, you know, craving that like social interaction, right? Cause we are human and we like to meet and be face to face. So it'll be interesting to see that. It probably depends a lot on your home circumstances, doesn't it? If you're living alone at home, you could probably end up never leaving your computer, you know, you're stuck at your desk all the time because there's a real distraction. Whereas I think if you're living with others, particularly young families, you, you know, the chances are you are going to be distracted in all sorts of ways that you don't necessarily get distracted by when you're in the office environment. That's true. So you mentioned it's impacted your social life more than anything. Are you using, like, what apps are you using? Are you doing kind of like zoom dinner parties and like house parties? And how are you keeping like interacting with all of your friends and stuff? Yeah, we're trying all the various apps and tools that are out there. We had to give up using one. Zoom we were using the other day. It seemed to be so crowded on the airwaves that didn't work because there was quite a group of us. We gave up with that. We then switched to house party, I think on that issue. But otherwise we use messenger, group chats, WhatsApp group chats. People are using Microsoft Teams meetings. Yeah, yeah. People work. I think you're using Google Hangouts. Yeah. There's such a multiple of choice out there. Yeah. And I don't know, some of them have their pros, some of them have their cons. A lot of the time, particularly for one-on-one, almost any of them work, don't they? That's great, yeah. I found myself being more social than ever. I was like speaking to a couple of friends from uni at 8.30 in the morning on my little morning walk before I start work on house party. And we were saying, we haven't spoken at 8.30 in the morning midweek for like ever. I'm like, it's great. I'm like, I think I'm speaking to my friends more. I was speaking to customers more and people that I work. I mean, it's just, it feels really social. I do a 2PM video call with all of my team every day. And I'm probably speaking to them more now than I was when I was sitting next to them. Because you like feel the... Yeah, and then that's a great thing to learn, isn't it? Going through this way of working, let's make sure that we keep up this more communication. And particularly I found that friends that I, I perhaps wouldn't have spoken to maybe more often than once every two months. I'm now speaking to once every two weeks. Yeah, so it's kind of bringing people together in a way that we've lost touch on a little bit. That's true. And when do you think, when do you think we'll be back in the office now? A million dollar question. I don't know. If we look at, I was looking at China, about what's happening in China and particularly Wuhan. And they were basically a knockdown, you know, for two months or so. But even when they opened up, they still haven't opened up fully while they've let people arrive into the city. They're still being very, very strict on checking them and things are not back to usual yet. And therefore we've got to think at least probably three months, haven't we, here in the UK? Yeah. I hope that the six months that some people have talked about, it just isn't going to be reality. From my sense, what I'm hearing and reading about, some of the countries that went into lockdown earlier than the UK, particularly in other parts of Europe, they're already now talking about their exit strategies. So how are they going to start letting people mingle and meet a bit more? So there is some hope, some light at the end of the tunnel. And I just hope that, you know, three months will be at the max. Let's hope it doesn't go beyond that. But we really, that's too early to tell at the moment. No, we'll see. What's really interesting and governments are having to do this already is almost put a price on life. Because you obviously have the lockdown, which affects the economy. And, you know, they've got these impossible decisions to make about, do you open up? Is that going to risk more people dying, the economy? I mean, it's a very, very tough thing for them to decide. Yeah, I think one thing for sure, people are agreed that it is going to have a huge economic impact that is going to ripple on much longer than maybe the physical side of people getting infected. Because if people are going through this period of not earning any money or they're earning very little money, you've got businesses that might have been or might collapse, still might collapse for coming months. The impact on the economy then is going to have a wave, sort of another wave where people don't have the money to put into the economy as they did. So that's going to be in the longer run in a way more severe. Massively. I remember when we met only a few months ago. Brexit was on everyone's lips. And it's interesting now, I mean, I'm probably the first person that's mentioned it in, you know, a month or two. So it's interesting how quickly things change. And this is being, you know, being a natural disaster, it's quite humbling when, you know, there's nothing you can do. I mean, it's Mother Nature saying, like staying in your room for six months and let me sort myself out. I mean, in a way, it seems so silly that we were so worried and head off about Brexit, doesn't it? And why did we even bother with that whole thing? Look at how powerful the world really is. And these are the things we should really focus on. And of course, being, well, I've been in the world of insurance for 38 years. We've been used to dealing with disasters and every time some physical, natural disaster comes along, you realize how powerless we are as humans. You know, if there's an earthquake or flooding, and then you realize it isn't Mother Nature powerful. And this is Mother Nature in another way. This is a disease that's spreading that seems to make humans just so powerless. It puts everything into perspective. It really does. How can leaders lead through these times? I mean, we haven't seen this, I mean, let's say for 10 years or so. Obviously the kind of the startup community, the SME sector is really big in the UK and a lot of people haven't ever experienced this. What can kind of leaders do to navigate through this? One thing is not to panic. And it feels as though we've got over the panic or the first round of panicking. But I still, in some of the conversations I have, there still seem to be some business leaders who are tending to think of it in a panicking way. And that's the worst thing to do. It's the worst thing for your clients, worst thing for your employees. You as a leader now have to show that you're being thoughtful, considered. You may not know all the answers and you need them and your people to help you come up with the answers, but don't, whatever it is, panic. Think very carefully about what you need to do and think also about the outcome. In other words, what can you do to make sure that you're still around and still able to operate to make good when we get through the crisis? Yeah, yeah. The other thing I think for leaders, and leaders often talk about this, but it is so important now, is you communicate, communicate, communicate. And you don't have to be the guru who has all the answers. You just need to be able to communicate freely, openly, and get interaction with your people. Never as important as now. Your people, but also your clients. Nobody's expecting you to know all the answers. This is the other thing. They know you're not superhuman, but to show that you're doing things in a measured way and that you're keeping them as informed as possible, that to me is one of the most important things. Definitely. The other thing is a lot of businesses and maybe not so much the smaller ones, and perhaps there are services that they can go to that are provided for by charitable organizations, but bigger businesses tend to provide hotlines and services for their employees where they can reach out, maybe get help. They've got some mental health issues or some other things that are troubling them. So many big employers will provide help lines, but if you're not one of those big employers that you still want to make sure you're helping your employees, get them, put them in touch with all of these charities and the charitable organizations that will therefore then provide mental health help. I was promoting a site called Mental Health First Aid England, the charity out there. It's got lots of tips and things you can use to work from home, to leave and guide teams. And there are all sorts of charitable organizations out there that you can encourage your teams, your employees, if they need it to reach out to. Definitely, it's difficult because if people are at home, you don't really know how they're feeling. They might put a brave face on in a video call, but once that video call's finished, I mean, especially if someone's living on their own as you touched on before, it can be quite a lonely place and everyone's mood goes up and down. So I mean, it's good to touch base with them individually as often as possible just to make sure people are okay. I think it is, and that can be on an ad hoc basis. Yeah. But also to have something structured. So I think you mentioned that you're having these daily calls with your team. That to me is very important because particularly if you're on your own and perhaps you're not actually engaged in that much virtual work, maybe you're having to do a lot of work actually on your own. If you see nothing that you're sort of preparing for and looking forward to, that can be really tough. So get some time in the calendar, get some social time where maybe it's not a work catch-up. Maybe it's just a catch-up at the end of the week. Perhaps we're going to have virtual cake eating together or something. Yeah, yeah. It's a purely social activity. But get it in the calendar so that people particularly if they're on their own, they know that something is going to be happening for them that they can join. Because otherwise that can feel if you're sort of looking out and there's nothing in sight for you to engage with people in a structured way. That can be really tough. 100%. Also, don't read the papers in the morning. It's like you end up having a diet of negativity before you even start. And there's probably nothing that interesting in the papers right now anyway. And one thing I'm finding quite difficult to get to, although I do tend to read The Economist, which is one of my favorite, is to get news on anything that isn't coronavirus related. Yeah. I'm really trying to seek that out. And particularly things that are happening in other parts of the world. I'm still, I want to know what's going on in the rest of the world. And that can be quite tough when you're in your own country or your own local community, you're hit by such a crisis as we're in now. You're sort of hungry for information of what's going on in your own environment. I so want to know what's going on in the rest of the world still. 100%. I was supposed to be in Cape Town right now, seeing my grandma. And if flights got canceled, obviously they don't want anyone from the UK coming in. But just looking at their response, which is completely different to the UK response and just seeing what's going on, absolutely. The one thing I have really disliked at the moment is my WhatsApp groups. Everyone's forwarding, you know, my friends, friends, friends, boyfriends, sister, what is it in the NHS? And, you know, or, and it's the people forwarding this, you know, fake news, maybe fake, maybe not, but, you know, perceived wisdom around. And it feels like it just fuels up, you know, the anxiety. I know. And I've had a lot of those, not now, but I did have a lot. And I kept going back to anyone who was sending me this, saying, just go and check the fact check, fact check on the BBC website. Yeah. All of these myths that have somebody telling you why they're not true. So I often used to send people back to that. But South Africa, there is a lovely actual video, the acquire in South Africa put together. It's really basic telling people about washing their hands and, you know, how you should, the basic things you should do to keep yourself as safe as possible throughout coronavirus. And it is the most wonderful uplifting song that I've ever come across. Oh, Rita, that's great there. I mean, obviously, the healthcare system is quite poor. A lot of people are living in, you know, one room. The virus can spread so quickly. A lot of respiratory diseases. So they've been very, let's call it militant on it, but they've really been able to keep the cases down. They have. But I don't believe you're even allowed out to walk your dog there, which is quite... Well, they are, the army are allowed to shoot. So, and you have to have papers if you're going to the shops and stuff. My grandma, she's 98. And so they've locked down her old age home that she's in now, just keeping it really tight. But, you know, in that society, that's what they've got to do, you know, versus like Sweden, I think they still have the schools open and you can still creep around. They've taken a very different approach and even a very different approach amongst the Nordic countries. Yeah. And they don't, at the moment, they have not had a high prevalence of infection rates. So it's quite extraordinary. And of course, what we'll all do, we'll have hindsight, we'll look back at all of this, but we will learn, learn for the future. And hopefully then the next time something like this happens, we're better prepared. I'll be interesting to see in hindsight if leaders are scrutinised for the decisions they make in this kind of wartime scenario and whether that might stop people making the decisions that they need to make. People are always being scrutinised and criticised. I mean, you've only got to look at the government criticism that has been here about speed of action. And that is out there all the time. One would hope that people don't deserve to be called a leader, though, if they're not taking any action. And I think by not taking any action, even within your own small environment, small business, that will then be remembered and would be equally criticised. Because even if you might not make all the right decisions, as I said, hindsight's a wonderful thing. But you made decisions and that's what people want to see in leaders that you actually have the courage to go out there and take initiative and show some leadership. Definitely. I wonder whether we're going to learn from this and evolve or do you think we're going to just revert back to the good old ways of policing our planet, consumerism, or are we just going to just take stock and be like, you know what, there's more important things and let's maybe take a slightly different path. We will adjust a little bit. I do believe that. I think we, this will have been a shock and a bit of a wake-up call to people. However, I never cease to be amazed how greed drives so many things. And I was just reading today about margin calls, okay? Thinking about, oh, all of these angry investors and are going to go after, or the banks are going to go after them to get all of the loans that they've given them to invest in things. They're going to want that money back. And oh dear, there's going to be all these lawsuits coming out. I'm thinking, gosh, and I really started to think about this and I thought, what makes people think that they want to borrow money, more money to add to the wealth they already have, to then go and invest in things, hoping to get the benefit out of the upside of that entire investment. And I sort of thought about the principle of thought. Now, that's sort of a certain amount of greed or people just wanting to make more money. And do you think that's really going to go away? I, something in tells me that it's not fundamentally going to disappear from human nature. True. And, but if we could see one levelling out of wealth throughout this, this would be amazing. But I fear again, it's the people at the bottom who have the least who are going to suffer the most. And while we were seeing great strides forward in wealth sharing, so more and more people were being lifted out of poverty. The stats are out there. I do fear that actually this could push many more people back into poverty. And we're going to have to start lifting them out again. So all the wealth gap narrow, I don't think this is going to do that. I think it's almost going to do the opposite for a while. Yeah. Well, if you employed at the moment, you're more wealthy than you were before because everything's cheaper and you're not spending any money and no one wants to go out for dinner with you or lunch. If you're unemployed now, it's tough. Absolutely. And I think we'll see more and more people become unemployed as you know, as this goes on over the next like few years. But hopefully people step in and support them. I mean, there are some companies hiring as if they need it. Amazon sales have gone through the roof and I think they're hiring 100,000 people over the UK and Europe. Some of the supermarkets, I think they've had to, I think they're up like 25% sales or something like that. So, you know, there's jobs that you can get if you need it and if you're in that part of the economy. And the National Health Service I've seen advertising in the UK to get people to take a career to actually start a career. And so, yes, there are places where people are looking to hire right now. But for me, the sad thing is the innovation that was coming through with some of the entrepreneurs starting out on their own little business, right now, some of them will have had a real knockback. And I hope that they can then go through this, come out strong and come back with their innovative ideas and don't give up on some of the great ideas. Definitely, no, definitely. Well, I mean, my wife actually works in the NHS so it's been quite interesting. She's actually contributing to society right now, much more than I do. And she's on the front line. And it's interesting, I mean, they're trying to get more protective equipment. There's a really lovely lady I'm speaking to this week who works at Birmingham University and she is developing with Kings and like a silicon-based mask that they can 3D print specifically for your face. So there's some amazing things going on. And despite all of this bad stuff that's going, it feels like it's putting the country together a lot more. Because when we first met and the Brexit stuff, the country felt more divided than ever in a very polarised and now we've all got this shared experience and hopefully the silver lining is that it just brings everyone closer. And I hope that goes across national boundaries though because the moment or over the past few weeks, a lot of the countries were doing different things and they were sort of locking themselves in and not necessarily wanting to share with each other. So within communities, however the communities are defined, that community spirit has come to the fore. But beyond that, big sort of boundaries and walls have been created to a certain extent, haven't they? People not wanting to share or wanting to make sure that they're making their own decisions. They don't want to have copied someone else's decision. And in business, that's what we do all the time. We're always copying each other. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, sort of collectively. And for some reason, countries have been, some countries anyway, have been a little reluctant to actually copy other countries, haven't they? It's been a very, very interesting thing to watch. You know, you're right. I think we'll get out of this as a world, you know, as a group of humans, rather than as individual countries or cities or are you right? We'll see how that develops. We'll meet you. I hope you stay safe and healthy. And I look forward to seeing you soon. Once all this is over. Okay, thank you very much. Thanks for listening. Hey, folks, thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe in all the usual places.